Author Topic: Grief is the same as depression?  (Read 4028 times)

teartracks

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Re: Grief = depression?
« Reply #15 on: August 26, 2010, 01:33:17 AM »





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I would tend to think depression is the result of not knowing what to grieve; the result of brain being in defence mode against the crushing impact of the grevious event(s). ?


Makes sense to me that not knowing what to grieve could cause terrible depression.  I expect that therapists look for 'events' that might be causing depression in a person.  But if the patient has buried the memory or if they are in denial a lot of work might be needed to uncover the real cause.   It's complicated for sure.  I heard one psychologist say that depression happens when people set goals that are unreachable or which for one reason or another are hindered and never reached. 

tt




sKePTiKal

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Re: Grief = depression?
« Reply #16 on: August 26, 2010, 07:25:38 AM »
Or maybe real grief starts to entrench and become more like depression if there is no acknowledgement that grief is a valid response to events; if society and local support see events as being positive, overall - and that grief isn't a "correct" response. As if one can't have a personal response that differs from the "group-think".

As a kid, I couldn't possibly see my way clear to be "happy, carefree" after all the events surrounding my parents last fight and divorce; all the circumstances of my FOO kind of became a 24/365 torment of bad things happening to me. So, for me to feel my real feelings - the grief and loss - that was natural... this only served to make me "out of sync" with my mother; and so began the whole pogrom to convince me that I was wrong; crazy; unnatural; etc.

And it didn't help at all, when my mother denied the reality of the situation at school (my support network) - so I was cut off from the possibility of anyone acknowledging; validating my feelings and I was separated from my friends even... until I "got over it" or began to feel like she did about the situation. I was supposed to understand her feelings - but mine were just wrong and I was too young to feel those things anyway.

Ya know; it occurs to me just now: the experience of grief is probably essential to learning empathy. Society's denial of grief (as in wanting to classify it depression) as a valid, transitional emotional state in the acceptance of change and loss is probably associated with the increased trend in N, in our society. Conversely - perhaps unattended to grief or delayed grieving - helps influence some people to be overly empathic and to pathologically caretake others, all while putting oneself lower than low on the "list". In my case, doing for others what I wished someone would do for me, you know? to continually postpone the confrontation and full force of the feelings that I "wasn't supposed to have" in the first place.

While sometimes, being "left alone" to process grief is a good thing - look at the old folk customs of bereavement:

People gather around the bereaved... caretaking... bringing food... "sitting with"... essentially providing a support cocoon around the person who is experiencing such profound grief, and providing acknowlegement, validation and an opportunity to process those emotions with others who are in close relationship.

One of my biggest growth spurts in T, came with reading "The Year of Magical Thinking" by Joan Dideon. In this book, she describes what could pass for a form of dissociation and denial of reality - as her subjective experience of grief, as she comes to grips with the loss of her husband... and how those intense emotions of grief and loss ebb and flow in her emotional processing. She also describes some of how she finally resolved; accepted the situation. Through her writing, I re-discovered an idea I had way back when - when in the midst of my grief and all the other trouble that brought on me - the idea being that:

intense feelings of grief & loss = the intense depth of caring and love

So I don't understand - it does not compute - the current avoidance of this fashionably "bad" feeling.
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teartracks

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Re: Grief = depression?
« Reply #17 on: August 26, 2010, 11:40:31 PM »




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intense feelings of grief & loss = the intense depth of caring and love

PR - Thoughts.

Who can know when the other person has suficiently plumbed or is effectively plumbing the depths of grief/loss or caring/love?

The grief/loss that causes the caring/love and vice versa doesn't have to make sense to an outsider.  It is what it is, right?

Professionally(counselors), shouldn't force a fit into what is fashionable.

The sad truth is that the professionals probably go home to as bad or worse situations than they are trying to treat back in the office.

I'm just throwing stuff out.  I have no answers for when grief or caring becomes pathological. :(

tt





« Last Edit: August 27, 2010, 12:44:56 PM by teartracks »

sKePTiKal

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Re: Grief = depression?
« Reply #18 on: August 27, 2010, 08:42:34 AM »
tt - I think you just made my point, in a much clearer fashion than I did!

Because of the connection between love and the equal depths of grief that results from a loss in such a relationship (which doesn't always occur)... how can, should one, even attempt to quantify it? To say, this much is good... and then... this much is bad - without considering the "whole person" and the circumstances (for instance, in the background exploration, "getting to know you" phase of therapy) is, imho, arbitrary; meaning that not everyone is going to fit into that nice, neat little category - but it doesn't mean, conversely - that there is some life-long disorder afflicting them, either. That's why there therapists... and why it takes so long to discover|find out|diagnose... just what is going on with some of us. Therapists are human, too. It takes a while to get to know a new patient, find their "wavelength" - attune to them.

The main problem I have with this news, is that grief is an emotion; it is not all the many things depression is - and equally, depression is not an emotion, per se. To reclassify an emotion as a mental disorder, to my way of thinking, starts to lead down the path (slippery slope) of some "official" or "designed by committee" set of attributes for people... and trying to homogenize everyone into the same exact Stepford Wife-type personality. Very "1984". Of course, I feel that way about "political correctness" and all the euphemistic phrases and re-namings of things, too.

It causes me to wonder: does society really have to re-invent EVERYTHING - for it to be relevant, just because this is the 21st century? I know we all thought we'd be flying our cars around and communicate with each other via ESP because of evolution (in the 60's we had some really wild predictions about the future) but what about "if it works don't fix it" and tradition and continuity of and building on, knowledge (and not "reframing"/"renaming" gravity to make it more "relevant")??? Does the new generation of experts really believe that we can make death, taxes - or grief - just disappear by reclassifying it?????

And oh boy... what does that kind of denial and avoidance say about the psychological characteristics of society (in the most general way)????

Maybe this is just "me" getting old, too. But I'm starting to digress.... so maybe I have another topic.
Success is never final, failure is never fatal.

Hopalong

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Re: Grief = depression?
« Reply #19 on: August 27, 2010, 03:30:27 PM »
Thought some folks might like this article and comments--they're apt:

http://open.salon.com/blog/rarobertsjr/2010/08/03/genuine_grief_is_no_illness

love,
Hops
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sKePTiKal

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Re: Grief = depression?
« Reply #20 on: August 28, 2010, 09:59:32 AM »
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This does not mean that those who mourn are sick.  This simply means that their lives have been turned upside down, tossed about like fruit [in] some kind of cosmic blender.

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This does not mean that I am sick, depressed, or suffer from a disorder. This simply means that I am human.  This means, too, that I opened my heart in love to another human being and when that person died, I felt their loss. Deeply.

We live in a society that tends to embrace the quick fix.  We live in a society that is enamored with it's ability to medicate.  And, I would say, that we live in a society that is not tolerant of grief, or those who are locked in the throws of this universal human experience.

Well, yeah. These 2 quotes from the article really hit home with me. Especially the cosmic blender, Hops -

From the Twiggy story - in the worst of what I experienced, I drew a tornado and a helicopter and bombs on a wall-papered suitcase of doll clothes. My mom (who knows WHAT she was thinking) had sent it to me, about the time I started therapy. As I started looking through a bunch of old pictures of me, from that time and started remembering finally - I thought of that suitcase and in a frenzy, dug it out of one of the stacks of "stuff" that filled my basement. And then, seeing it and touching it - like some clairvoyant imitation - it came back to me. I drew this for myself and my brother. Like Hansel & Gretl's breadcrumbs, I'd left myself a "clue" that expressed in pictures what we went through - since talking about it was a punishable offense with my mother and we weren't allowed to talk to anyone else, either. "It" never happened, according to my mother. (Alice in Wonderland is another really good metaphor for what my inner experience was like - except there was no Johnny Depp in mine.)

The tornado was the cosmic blender. The helicopter and bombs were an interpretation of the Vietnam era made personal - incoming bombs with no warning and no place to hide - no safe place. Everything in my life was topsy-turvy. Everything - including my ability to tell "real" from just feelings and thoughts... and my mom wasn't any kind of resource either: she took advantage of that state to gaslight me into her "version" of what happened and that "it was for my own good" to not have a clear memory of it. Because: according to her - I was just like her and not able to process my grief. What a crock of the "droppings of water buffalo".

I laughed & laughed - but didn't understand at all - when my T told me early in our sessions, that she was going to teach me how to "take an emotional shit". She didn't often use that kind of language... and I guess it was intentional; to make an impression on me. Now I realize, she meant to teach me to finally process all the grief that got laid aside in my Twiggy phase. Later, when I would ask - "WHY did all this come up NOW?"  She said it was a mystery about the timing; that no one had any idea about what provoked it. But I now have a couple of ideas about the timing of it... the why's. But this other "thread" that I keep referring to and haven't started yet is where that goes.

Another of my crazy questions just came up this week - why is it, that some people resort to absolving themselves of responsibility completely and blaming other people, society, fate, whatever - while other people will over-blame themselves, kick themselves past the point of common sense... making the normal, unpleasant bad things of life even worse than what they are? (Don't answer that; I think I know... and it goes in this fictitious new thread.)

And all this is so pertinant to me, personally. My MIL who now lives with us, will be 83 in a month. We've become friends and I'm finding personal resolution of old grief, by being "allowed" to care for her in a useful way... in a way that works for her, in a way that supports her privacy and independence and relationship with other family members. A very close friend of mine is dealing with the immiment death of her Nmom, who's been declining with alzheimer's and dementia and just recently took a seriously bad turn for the worse. Friend's grief issue isn't her mom, however - it's with her dad, who for 60 years was a loving, devoted husband who never said a bad word or complained about the N in his life. He is punishing and blaming himself for not "fixing" her and resisting all efforts to take care of himself. Right now, he's sort of a "poster child" of that dangerous place in the grief blender that make the DSM folks think an "intervention" is necessary. Maybe; maybe not. I think what they're missing is that grief is more personal than even sex, you know? It's a "life change" of the whole person, too. A natural transition and not an illness, despite all the the outward appearances. And many, many people make it through that dangerous place just fine. I tend to think my friend's dad will be one of these, even though it doesn't appear that way, right now.
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Meh

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Re: Grief = depression?
« Reply #21 on: August 28, 2010, 10:57:33 AM »
Stating the obvious: For the drug industry playing with words and definitions is strategic planning to market their product broadly and widely. Just because there are industry meetings held in boardrooms somewhere (maybe Las Vegas) where business people are trying to figure out how to further expand their profits to no end...doesn't mean I have to accept what they are telling me about my feelings, about my body about my life. I think the pharmaceutical companies sometimes contribute to keeping people "in the fog"- even if they do make some very useful products.

The new drugs are "designer prescriptions" for a modern lifestyle- they can be a trendy thing.


« Last Edit: August 28, 2010, 11:05:12 AM by Muffin buster »