It matters not if you read or respond...

[Izzy_*now*]

As the title says…

Whatever I posted that is incorrect is something I read somewhere, and after researching it, discovered the same elsewhere. I can say that all this was based on ignorance and naivete, as per Dr. G., about who to believe.

Those who knew me from the time I joined and read my Story---my beginnings-- have a better idea of who I am. My story is under “isittoolate” in the Stories section, about not being taught many things correctly, as a little girl and flying by the seat of my pants as life progressed. Everything went wrong, as my choices were poor.

This didn’t set a good example for my daughter, but I thought I was being a good mother. Being that she is homosexual, which I accept because she is finally happy, is not a problem for me. I was raising her as heterosexual, but now I understand that this can be spotted in a Grade 1 child by its first crush! She is now living a different life with her partner who has 3 little children and they have their own life, with my D having only her youngest left at home. He is 18.

She once told me that she was angry with me for not realizing that when she was 12 and swallowed a bottle of aspirin and I didn’t know until the Dr. called me, that her problem was me and my disability. So she had a few chores and responsibilities that other children didn’t have, but she did them and graduated with Honours and has 2 University degrees. (U is higher than College in Canada.) In later life she told me that she didn’t know what I did, but whatever it was she didn’t mind hard work.  I am interested now in the ‘flowering’ of her 3 ‘step-children’ but her life now is apparently none of my business. I can accept that as long as she is happy, and remain content with knowing that. (However I would love it if she wrote to me.)

Anything I have said that was wrong could have been responded with, “Where on earth did you come up with that? ”and I would have said, “From researching the internet, or ? Book I read“, and possibly be set straight without the hatred and name-calling. Nothing is/was an original idea of my own, because of the lack of learning back in the late ‘40s and ‘50s.

Now I don’t know who to trust. But I trust my lawyer, my grief counsellor and my physical therapist, because they have come to know me and believe I possess a good outlook on my  life.  My PT has a N mother who she hasn’t seen in 18 years and we can have very sensible conversations about that, because of my experience with Ns. Also her husband has N parents. Because of her unbelievably great attitude about her life and her husband’s she is very helpful for me. I see her 3 times a week, and when I asked if we could stop 2 of the exercises, or modify them, because I was frustrated over the lack of progress., she did modify them, but knew me better than I knew myself and a couple of days ago I realized she had returned to the original positions and I succeeded, as never before. She said it was likely because I never had anyone who believed in me, who supported me in troubled times…then I mentioned fear of failure that came from long ago and all this fell into place, because I used a wrong word to my lawyer, lack of ‘motivation’’…the grief counsellor called it ‘avoidance’ and today with the latter I told her that the light went on, finally. I was just ‘stuck’, again, in not understanding myself.

If I never said it, having an out of body near death experience can change one’s personality. I had that back in 1969, and can see now that I changed then, and came home from the hospital, after one year, to my 6 yr old, who likely found me different in two ways. I was never actively her mother for 2 days  less than one year.

Now for19 months I have been healing, from another car incident. I spent all most of the first 12 months in excruciating pain and on drugs, after 3 surgeries and thought it would never end. I have been misled by professionals along the way, but my PT’s , and my, hard work has strengthened my leg muscles to the point that I am once again independent, having less pain but still improving. I can do what I used to do, but slower and more clumsily (I can finally pull up my underwear in the bathroom without returning to my bedroom to lie down and do it. It takes about 2 minutes, but it is improvement. Can you imagine staying in for most of 18 months because you cannot use a public washroom? I can, once again clean my home, drive my car (was dependent upon public transportation for 14 months.) I know there are people worse off that I am, but I am not a quitter and the important, to me, people here know it.

I make mistakes, but I doubt very much that I would spew such hatred against another if I didn’t know from where that person came, his/her upbringing and life’s experiences.

I have a corner in my mind where I store the ugly things and now they are just facts. That is where that post will go, because I know who I am, my beliefs, but am often led astray by folks with whom I am not up close and personal…the folks I trust is because we know one another.  I too ended up with an N, unbeknownst to me, until he had me well away from my family and province, before he showed his true colours. I just couldn’t believe I had been rsuckered by a man, who was just like the man my daughter married at 19...who suckered her.

None of us knows everything and we keep learning until we die.

I am sorry that this Forum is even necessary but it is, as there are Ns everywhere and we must learn to recognize them. Since I have been N free since 2002 before I joined this forum, I have now not too much to say and don’t know some of the newbies (to me) who have arrived in the interim. This accident has taken all my strength and my thoughts to overcome and understand myself again, as once again I begin a ‘different’ life.

I am grateful for the pleasant posts on that other thread as they are from members who were here when I joined., and I apologize to those with N parent(s) as that I do not understand. My parents were not N’s but were not at all good at parenting, so I and my 4 siblings have gone our own ways. One is a golf snob, one is an N, one is ‘troubled underneath but never shares’ and the brother is not into family politics. They have built their lives around their marriages. …and we are all seniors now, just as distant from one another as we were as children, fighting and scrapping and “trying to kill one another“.

I did apologize about the topic and was accused of not, so maybe not all my posts were read. Yes, my information came from books and the Internet, but to be charged with ”being guilty of breaking an  International Law and crimes against humanity” was certainly going overboard and taken from the Internet.

I still say though that “the world is in bad shape!“

Respectfully
Izzy

[Hopalong]

Hi Izzy,

Thank you for apologizing. I can see what you mean about education not having been what you needed in the 40s and 50s.

There are such complicated reasons for why people get drawn into what they do...

I hope you'll stay here and keep letting us support you in the things you struggle with. Your daily battles are huge.

I loved what CB offered you and hope you really will do some new reading. You ARE smart.

(I remember how stunned I was by a white supremacist--not labeling you that at all, just it's the example I'm thinking of--who once appeared on Oprah. He had believed many large theories taught to him that were anti-human, but he came to figure out that there were OTHER truths about people and history. And he really changed what he believed. It was joyful to hear him.)

love,
Hops

[Dr. Richard Grossman]

Thank you for your apology, Izzy. 

Richard

[lighter]

Anything I have said that was wrong could have been responded with, “Where on earth did you come up with that? ”and I would have said, “From researching the internet, or ? Book I read“, and possibly be set straight without the hatred and name-calling. Nothing is/was an original idea of my own, because of the lack of learning back in the late ‘40s and ‘50s.


Respectfully
Izzy

Yup yup yup.

Lighter

[ann3]

Izzy,

I've been on this board a long time.  I remember when you were “isittoolate” & people encouraged you to change to Izzy.  Yes, I know your story.  I know you've had a very hard life.

Please understand I came down on you hard so that you would realize severity of what you posted.  I hope you can see that now.  I am sure that if you had lost family in the Holocaust, you never would have posted that, let alone believe it.  And, yes, denying the Holocaust is a crime in the countries that I cited.  I am familiar with those laws since I am an attorney.

Thank you for your apology.  I do wish you all the best with the challenges that you face.

ann

[debkor]

Hi Iz,

Your right about that

None of us knows everything and we keep learning until we die.

but learning we do ..do.

I think I know you Iz.   Your not a hater. 

We all have made mistakes.  I am not one who is without being capable (and have) offended people.  I don't plan on or mean to do it.
And sometimes when I have been offended I can come back at 0 to 60 just as bad as the offender. 

So I am human.  You are human.

I hear ya, Iz.

I sure do miss your stories about the farm and your life. 

With Halloween coming up I think of your story when you were the ghost.
And I still see you with the plastic bag on your head.

You have made a good impact on my life.

Your a good egg, I'm a good egg, Everyone here is a good egg.  Some times we trip over each other's feet and can harm another.
And we know it. 


It's good to know we are human...
with feelings and thoughts for and about others...and know we can cause harm but do whatever it takes to make it right.

Sometimes it's just with an apology.

Thanks Iz.

Love
Deb

[mudpuppy]

I'm glad Izzy has considered that her sources duped her.
I wonder if there is a lesson here also about instantly ascribing motives when faced with something objectionable rather than objecting to the thing itself.

mud

[mudpuppy]

Here's a link to a 106 year old holocaust survivor and a couple of her friends who also survived the camps through music.  http://www.youtube.com/user/AliceTheFilm
Charming old lady.

  I'm not sure what the deal is about international laws. They don't bind anyone but those who live under them which Izzy doesn't and it would take a very short time to come up with a very long list of particularly egregious international laws that no one should have to follow.  I happen to find laws that tell us what we may think or say not only repugnant but rather contrary to the laws I live under in the USA and the very idea of the USA itself and kind of contrary to the concept of this place.
  It's one thing to object to objectionable statements and to share the opinion that a particular issue is probably unwise to pursue in a particular forum, but at some point doesn't it become a little ironic if a person is told by other board members on a voicelessness board that they had better shut up about certain things and that they're on probation in the meantime?
There's certainly no place for personal attacks but, other than the proprietor of this joint, shouldn't we, of all places, err on the side of not hectoring others on what they can and can't say?

mud

[Dr. Richard Grossman]

Hi Izzy,

I wanted to give other people a chance before I posted this.  Here is the reason, I believe, you did not get the response you were hoping for.

Consider two scenarios:

Scenario one:

You are sitting in a chair in the shade.  It’s summer and a pleasant breeze is rustling the leaves of the tree above you.  An acquaintance walks up and says I head that a 100 mile per hour wind just passed where you are sitting.  You would look up and say to the person:  “where on earth did you come up with that?”

Scenario two:

An acquaintaince, out of the blue, lets it be known to you that they believe Jews are responsible for the ills of the world—and almost all are evil.  You are Jewish.  The last time you heard these very same thoughts, within a year, people came and took your entire family.  Some were shot, some including yourself, were packed into cattle cars and taken to concentration camps.  The healthier among the group were forced into slave labor and underfed.  Those who were old, unhealthy, or children were “selected” and gassed.  Eventually, those who were slave laborers eventually succumbed to malnourishment and were “selected” and gassed.  You were the only one of your family who miraculously survived.  After the war, you decided to go back to the house you grew up in.  There you are met with pistols pointing at you—and if you don’t leave quickly, you will simply disappear and become one more unknown “holocaust victim”.  You have no place to go, no one to be with.  But somehow, after years, you manage to find a place to live, a life to live.

Now, when an acquaintance lets it be known to you that they believe Jews are responsible for the ills of the world—and almost all are evil, the probability that you will say:  “where on earth did you come up with that?” is very slim indeed.  In fact you are likely to respond with horror, offense, and fear.  That would be normal.

We may not be “survivors” on this Board.  But “survivors” are family, loved ones, dear friends—and we feel the same feelings, and the same need to protect, because of empathy and attachment.  And if some of us are Jewish, we know the same thing has happened over, and over, and over again in our history.  And it will likely happen again, beginning with just the beliefs you posted.

I hope this helps,

Richard       

[mudpuppy]

No one was calling for enforcement of the law.

  Not trying to be contentious, but as I recall it was asserted that Izzy should be removed from the board, as she had violated its terms of use by actually violating international law, which of course is not technically enforcing a non applicable law, which is an impossibility, but seems like the next best thing.
  I'm assuming that was merely said in the heat of the moment and upon reflection, with cooler heads prevailing, might not be reasserted, but then we know what happens when we assume things.

mud

[Izzy_*now*]

I apologized and have not repeated my mistake. Over all this, I haven't and will not resort to 'over the top' name calliing either.

When asked to not repond to my posts, I meant it, although this title was somewhat ambiguous. Otherwise I would expect there ought to have been an intervention to ann3's post.

I've been asked to not contact another and I will respect her wishes.

My sister is a 'golf snob', actually a 'golf and bridge snob' and that is a truth. If one is not into golf and bridge then one is not allowed into her Group. No one on this board can refute that 'expression in a nutshell'.

I appreciate the posts, nevertheless, for my 'sorting the wheat from the chaff'.

One needs to walk in another's shoes before passing judgement and I will do my best to remember that for myself as well.

Regards
Izzy

[ann3]

"Not trying to be contentious, but as I recall it was asserted that Izzy should be removed from the board, as she had violated its terms of use by actually violating international law, which of course is not technically enforcing a non applicable law, which is an impossibility, but seems like the next best thing."

Mud,

As far as I know, you are wrong:
1.  Izzy cited board rules because she did not want me to post to her anymore.  
2. Someone then posted board rules.
3. I noticed that Board rules prohibited violation of International Law.
4. I then cited Laws of other nations (& the European Union) that prohibit Holocaust Denial.

Note:  US does not have such a law due to the 1st Amendment.  Nonetheless, I stated that in those nations which have such laws, Holocaust Denial is considered to be a crime.

As far as I know, no one suggested that Izzy be banned.

Justkathy:  IMO, I think you state the heart of the matter very elegantly.

[JustKathy]

I re-read the entire thread. NO ONE suggested that Izzy be banned, only that she be asked to post her beliefs in relevant forums, not here. This is what was said:

Dr. Grossman, if I may suggest, a post from you may be in order stating that political discussions are not appropriate here.  There are other forums specifically for that purpose.

No one called for her to be banned, only to stick to the actual subject of Narcissism.

[ann3]

Yes, that's what I thought, JustKathy.

IMO, I don't think comparing a "'golf and bridge snob'" to a Holocaust Denier is a fair comparison.  Being a 'golf and bridge snob' does not hurt anyone, whereas being a Holocaust Denier does.

[ann3]

"Nothing is/was an original idea of my own, because of the lack of learning back in the late ‘40s and ‘50s."

This is something else which neither rings true nor makes sense:

The Holocaust occurred primarily in the 1940s.  So, what does "lack of learning back in the late ‘40s and ‘50s." have to do with it?

The Holocaust occurred during your lifetime.  It was widely reported in the press & the media (newspapers & radio).

After the war, there were the Nuremberg Trials:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nuremberg_Trials

The Nuremberg Trials were a series of military tribunals, held by the main victorious Allied forces of World War II, most notable for the prosecution of prominent members of the political, military, and economic leadership of the defeated Nazi Germany. The trials were held in the city of Nuremberg, Bavaria, Germany, in 1945-46, at the Palace of Justice. The first and best known of these trials was the Trial of the Major War Criminals before the International Military Tribunal (IMT), which tried 22 of the most important captured leaders of Nazi Germany. It was held from November 20, 1945 to October 1, 1946.

I realize you lived in the country, on a farm, but, I find it hard to believe that you may not have heard of the Nuremberg Trials.

So, since you lived during the 1940s & 1950s, I find your statement disingenuous.