Author Topic: victim but no victim?????? CB  (Read 4116 times)

Lupita

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victim but no victim?????? CB
« on: November 28, 2010, 12:26:04 PM »
For CB or any friend desiring to help.

The one thing I know is that you are not seeing your own status as "victim" correctly.  You already have had escorts and the prospect of escorts, friends to go to movies with, a son who loves you and was able to cause you to "forget" for awhile.  I dont see you as alone at all--and that's a GOOD thing.  The BAD thing is that you see yourself as alone, abandoned, without a friend in the world.  You are telling yourself a truth that I think you DO believe, but it isnt true.  I think the most important thing you can do as the next step in your healing is to discover what this "story" is giving to you that you need? 

I think its really, really, really important to know the answer to that question.

Love
cb

I do not understand what you are telling.
   
You are telling me that despite that I have a son who loves me, other gentleman to go out with me, a lady willing to be my friend, I still feel a “victim” “abandoned” when I am not really am.
   
So, I know that. I feel empty, lonely, and abandoned, because I was not welcome in to this world and my mother made sure I knew.

The hole in my soul is there, and has never been filled. It is temporarily filled when I have a man who devotes his time to me, but when he wants to get away from me, I get a horrible anxiety and get desperate and fill abandoned and like wanting to dye.

I know I should not put my needs on a man only, I have to satisfy my needs by my self. But I have been fighting that for more than 50 years now. I have been fighting the loneliness for all my life.

Maybe I need medication. I will talk to my T tomorrow and ask for a referral for my doctor to prescribe some SSRIs, or something to help me fill the hole chemically because I cant do it on my own.

What do you think? Please, help.

 
   
 

Lupita

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Re: victim but no victim?????? CB
« Reply #1 on: November 28, 2010, 12:43:47 PM »
For example, last night i went dancing, i danced with M, we had a good time, he thinks I am still with him, my heart tells me that I have to finish that, that he causes me too much stress.

We ended in good terms last night, still today I feel fear of him, I feel anxiety, asn if we are still fighting, I do not want to be with him anymore. i did not tell him last night. Why do I not have the courage to call it quits, and move on? I know I dont want to be with him, he is totally unpredictable, he causes me stress, he always does things that are hurtful to me, he critizies me constantly, he does not like when I am happy, if I am happy he does something to hammer me in the head. He hates to see me happy.

Why, last night I let him think that we are OK when I know we are not? Why do i fear him so much, just like I fear my mother?

CB123

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Re: victim but no victim?????? CB
« Reply #2 on: November 28, 2010, 06:45:51 PM »
Lupe,

I am not saying that you dont feel lonely--of course you do. 

But I have paid attention to everything that you say when you are in pain...and you frequently feel that the person you are with is hurting you on purpose.  Perhaps they are.  I dont know though.  You had a very nice gentleman friend a year or so ago, who just wasnt right for you.  He didnt stimulate you intellectually and he was too clingy.  I saw you as a grown woman who was deciding whether or not to continue spending time with someone she didnt really enjoy.

M. is someone that you really enjoy...but he has made some choices in his life that are not compatible with what you want your life to look like.  Again, I see you as a grown woman who is making grown up decisions about the suitability of a man for you.

You have had a couple of guys in the last few days to do things with, a girlfriend, your son.  I see you as someone who is probably very attractive and engaging and that people like to be with.  M. doesnt want to lose you (of course he doesnt!  You are a keeper!)  but he isnt right for you. 

That's what I see: he isnt right for you.  He isnt trying to hurt you, torture you, make you crazy.  But you feel as though he is.  And you often bring up your mother and what she did to you as a similar situation.

Maybe that's where you are getting stuck.  When you feel badly, you impute to the person who you feel badly about the same traits as your mom.  Maybe that is easier for you than to see yourself as a grown up woman who is no longer stuck, but who can make decisions about who she wants to spend time with. 

I love journalling as a way to clarify what I am thinking.  I dont know if you journal, but you could use the pages here as your journal and go back and read the entries over the last year.  Maybe you will see a thread that will pop off the page at you and show you where your thinking gets stuck. 

Wishing the best for you Lupita
CB
When they are older and telling their own children about their grandmother, they will be able to say that she stood in the storm, and when the wind did not blow her way -- and it surely has not -- she adjusted her sails.  Elizabeth Edwards 2010

lighter

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Re: victim but no victim?????? CB
« Reply #3 on: November 30, 2010, 04:25:40 AM »
Lupita:

Hey..... where are you?

Nestled in with a new journal, and hot cup of something comforting I hope.

(((())))  Everyone goes through lost, dreadful times, dear.

It's the soil serenity grows in (if we don't go back and  distract ourselves with M's to shift our focus from the pain.)
Stay with it......
choose yourself.
Lighter


sKePTiKal

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Re: victim but no victim?????? CB
« Reply #4 on: November 30, 2010, 08:55:17 AM »
Quote
Why, last night I let him think that we are OK when I know we are not? Why do i fear him so much, just like I fear my mother?

Lupita, sweetie - you just gave yourself one big clue in these questions.

M is not your mother. Even if he does some things that remind you of her... your relationship with him and your boundaries with him... are still different. M is not your mother...

Part of our brains know this; but we have another part that doesn't. It's the part that can be so frightened because it mistakes a stick for a snake; our flight - fight - freeze reflexes. I've come to know how that part of my brain works; I think everyone's is unique and so just a bit different. In my case, total intimacy with another person - like my own Mhubby - can send me to that total fear zone. It's because that part of my brain mistakes hubby and our relationship - for the inappropriate boundary intrusions and projections and self-soul-pain that level of intimacy evoked in my relationship with my mother. It's like I have intimacy PTSD, you know?

It happens more than I want it too, even now. It happens with lots of other situations and people, too. But the more I learn about how my own system works... the more in control of it I am... and the less likely I am to take the old pattern of relationship with my mom and superimpose it on someone else. I've learned that that "reflex" - or learned fear experience - is mistaking a stick for a snake; and sometimes now, that is even true of my interactions with my mom. (My boundaries with her are stronger now; I'm "training" her sort of... with mixed results.)

The result of working on and through this is - the level of intensity of all feelings I have about boundary issues decreases; I'm able to look at what's going on in a relationship or misunderstanding or situation a tad more objectively than I used to; and so I've convinced myself (right or wrong) that I'm making more informed, cleared, decisions. One thing I know for a fact: I am never completely a blameless, helpless victim in these situations; only in that ancient, engraved on the fear brain, old situation was I helpless. I always find things I could've said or done differently that would've prevented issues or been more true to expressing what I really wanted. I know now, that I'm a part of the problem too.

The reason I think you might be doing something like this too, is that you've said a couple of times that you felt abandoned. I'm sure that's true of your experience with your mother... but M is not your mother and spending time with his other family members isn't abandonment of you... unless you're expecting (with part of your brain) to replace that previous family and all his other relationships and make him into a substitute for the mom who really did abandon you. After all, you left him - right? And doesn't it "take two to tango"? Maybe you unconsciously gave M the message that it was OK with you or that you didn't mind him spending time with his children and ex? (That's a big maybe that only you will know the answer to, sweetie... I'm just guessing.)

Poor Lupita, I wish I could explain this better and make it all better. I know how awful and confusing and painful that place is. But CB is right; if you look at what you yourself are saying in your posts - you'll also find the clues to understanding what's going on and healing that place and changing it, to your gain in wisdom about this and yourself. Read your posts as if someone else wrote them. It'll help. Do a complete de-briefing on this whole relationship and how you were feeling and are feeliong now, with your T; it'll help.

I hope you don't misunderstand and think I'm "blaming" you, either. I'm only trying to use my experience of discovering how I actually helped create the situations that brought everything crashing down on me... to help explain some of what MIGHT be going on with you, too.

I know I could be completely wrong and if you persist in trying to understand it yourself, you might very well come up with a completely different explanation.

Hang in there, sweetie.
Success is never final, failure is never fatal.

Hopalong

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Re: victim but no victim?????? CB
« Reply #5 on: November 30, 2010, 11:25:11 PM »
Lupita,

I do not believe that you have a hole in your soul.

You may FEEL this, but that feeling is not equal to reality.

I think you need to use the deep intelligence that can help a woman graduate from medical school in one language find her way into another culture and language and start that education again.

Do you have any respect for yourself? It is okay if you do not. But it is important for you to answer the question. If the answer is No, then you know what you need to fight for with all your courage. If the answer is Yes, but only about my looks or my seductiveness or my talents...then --

You need to challenge your idea of soul. You need new experiences and new assumptions and new teachers. The dance and the desperate search for other people to reassure you is empty. You could find a man tomorrow who would pledge undying love and devotion and marry you and never ever look at one other person and be riveted on your every word for the rest of your life...

And you would wake up one day and realize that he was not the answer. Nobody outside YOU is the answer. Not even your mother.

YOU ARE THE ANSWER. YOU HAVE THE ANSWER. Your worth and dignity as a human being IS the answer. It has to stop becoming an abstraction and you have to create space inside yourself for THIS to become a feeling.

You know all about passion and pain. You don't know much about compassion and kindness and peace -- for yourself.

YOU CAN LOOK IN NEW DIRECTIONS TO DEFINE YOUR WORTH. I refuse to believe you can't.

You probably need to stop dancing for a while. I think it confuses you.

I remember a long time back telling you I think a support group for women, a regular and committed group of women who meet to support and hear and value each other, would be powerful for you. I think if you find some women's spirituality group -- it would help you rebalance.

You have lost drastic amounts of weight and had surgery on your face and danced until you dropped.

Is it time to be kinder to yourself? Is it time to stop acting out your mother's ignorance?

You don't deserve to just act out the pattern she had. You are so, so much more interesting than that. You are forcing yourself to be small and terrified. You may have moments of terror, but it is true...you can actually look forward to a life that is NOT ruled by panic.

love,
Hops
"That'll do, pig, that'll do."

lighter

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Re: victim but no victim?????? CB
« Reply #6 on: December 01, 2010, 08:13:53 AM »
Lupita:

I remember reading ADDICTION AND GRACE many years ago.

I identified with it, and it helped me understand that we're all addicted to something..... all needful, very human beings.

We all have a hole in our souls, and we're going to fill it with something.

If we're filling it with something harmful, we come to crossroads and often consider making better choices.  We do that A LOT. 

We can make different choices, educate ourselves and take leaps of faith that not repeating our pattern won't kill us......
 or keep doing what we've been doing, and get the same outcome.

It's difficult to change habits and patterns.  Almost impossible for some, bc it's painful, and humans spend their entire lives going from one distraction to another, avoiding pain.  That's what we do.  Hopefully, the distractions aren't toxic, KWIM?

I think you're at a very important cross road right now.  You have choices.  You can hope to feel better, or you can remain where you are, but it's a journey, and you learn from any path you take.

There's no wrong decision, only different decisions, and different life lessons.  Maybe you're learning exactly the lessons you need to right now, and you're right on track.

Please try to embrace the hope for change, and know the pain is what drives it..... the pain isn't your enemy.  It's your catalyst for change, Lupe.

You're smart, and interesting and driven to educate yourself.  It's going to get better, but it takes time and perhaps a whole lot of journaling so you can see what's really going on inside your soul.  So you can see what's inside, and make mindful choices for yourself.

We're here for Lupita.  You aren't alone ((())).

Lighter

Lupita

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Re: victim but no victim?????? CB
« Reply #7 on: December 04, 2010, 11:38:28 AM »
Against my best judgement I got back with him. Why is it for me so bad to be alone? I was alone for 20 years and now I do not want to be. I survived alone before, why amd I so afraid now?

I know we will soon be fighting about something else. Oh yes, about Christmas. I will spend my vacatio at his house but I will leave 25 and 26 for his adult children narcissistic family to come to spend "rivate time" with him, of course with the ex wife there.

Why do I take him back if I hate him so much?

Why am I not learning?

Lack of courage for delaying gratification?

Lupita

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Re: victim but no victim?????? CB
« Reply #8 on: December 04, 2010, 11:51:14 AM »
I know my biggest fear is to see him with other women. That will kill me. Sometimes I think that the only reason I keep taking him back is because I do not want him to have someone else.

What a stupid reason to suffer the way he treats me.

Lupita

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Re: victim but no victim?????? CB
« Reply #9 on: December 04, 2010, 03:46:42 PM »
It feels like I finallly have my mother and since she is mean to me I have to let her go with my sister.

my sister = other women

That is why I feel so aufle with other women dancing or flirting with him, i feel it is my sister stilling everything from me. But it was not my sister stilling everything from me, it was my mother denying everything to me.

So, it is M the one that is causing me damage, not the other women. Therfe is no reason for me to be afraid of other women. Every women in tango hates me. He has provoked it that way. I played the game, i was competeng with "my sister".

I need to leave thais man, but it took me 52 years to detach from my mother, it should take me less than that to detach from M.

debkor

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Re: victim but no victim?????? CB
« Reply #10 on: December 04, 2010, 04:40:33 PM »
Lup,

How did he provoke  all the women in dance to hate you?

Deb

Lupita

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Re: victim but no victim?????? CB
« Reply #11 on: December 04, 2010, 08:28:25 PM »
He tells them that I don't let him dance with them. Every time a woman is trying to make friends with me, he starts flirting with her so we feel uncomfortable and have no more friends. One day an older woman came and saw mw so sad that she gave me a kiss in the forhead and told me to never be sad in tango. He immediately told her in front of me. I am attracted to older women too.
She felt so uncomffortable that to this dya she does not talk to me any more nor dances with him.

He isolates me just like my mother did. He makes me look bad just like my mother did. Provoking my reactions that he knows triggers my emotions.

I truely dislike him and cant say no to him. Juts like my mother.
But now I say no to my mother. She has not come to visit me in two years because I do not let her. I said no for the first time to her two years ago.Now I have to learn how to say no to M.
I made one friend last week and he sked her to dance. She said no. I said, she is my friend, she will not play your games. She idd not dance with him. She knows that he flirts to torture me.

lighter

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Re: victim but no victim?????? CB
« Reply #12 on: December 04, 2010, 10:20:56 PM »
Lupita:

I was stunned to read that M was so innapropriate to the older woman who was kind to you.

What an awful thing to say and do to BOTH you and that woman.

I don't like him based on that alone, Lupe.

I will refrain from name calling.....

Oh what the hell.

MPig.

You're better than that, Lupe.

You don't need his crap, but on the bright side.....

perhaps you're working through it so you don't have to keep repeating this struggle?

Lighter

sKePTiKal

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Re: victim but no victim?????? CB
« Reply #13 on: December 05, 2010, 09:16:19 AM »
Hi Lupita, sweetie...

I agree with Lighter that I think you're working through this, now. Seeing the similarities in the relationship patterns - the parallels - can help you reach the answers to the questions you're asking; because like Hops pointed out - you already know the answers! And maybe unconsciously, that's why you're returning to M - for your SELF - to work through this, answer the questions you're asking your self, and finally break out of this pattern. Maybe, it's this reason... maybe it is fear... maybe it's more complicated than that. I guess that's another question.

Sometimes, we really really don't want to hear the answers to those kinds of questions. That doesn't make you a bad person, or weak... it just makes you human, ya know? But you can get to those answers, if you choose to. No one can decide whether you will pursue the answers now or just stay with M - except Lupita. I don't think there's really a right or wrong choice - either path will get you to the answers you want, if you really want them - the paths are simply different.

The above, is kind of advice that's "no advice", huh? Well, there is one thing I'd recommend you do. When you have a chance or opportunity (without M around)... and you see that older woman who told you you need to be happy to tango... go ask her what she meant. Ask her how she is. Compliment her on what's she wearing - do anything to open a conversation with her. I think she might be an angel-friend for you... it kind of sounds like it, from how you described her - and her reaction to M. And it would be someone - other than M - to spend time with, and maybe be close to.

(((((((Lupita))))))))
Success is never final, failure is never fatal.

Hopalong

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Re: victim but no victim?????? CB
« Reply #14 on: December 05, 2010, 09:31:06 AM »
I think you need to join an all-female jazz dancing class.

I think you need to stop tango because it triggers you over and over and over and over.

love,
Hops
"That'll do, pig, that'll do."