Dismissiveness - the scars of living amonst the Ns

[Gaining Strength]

I had a sleepless night last night - in a cave - with several dozen boyscouts and cubscouts and parents.
As I lay there in the solid blackness I thought about something that has been working its way to the surface.
I have been trying to put words to it for a few days - to post about it.
But I found that as I approached a computer - the little understanding I had would retreat - gone, disappear until another time when no computer was at hand.
This last night, in the wee hours, in the solid black of lightlessness, I had an understanding, an epiphany of sorts.

One of my greatest pains is an aspect of voicelessness which I choose to call dismissiveness.
Dismissiveness is when another person dismisses what I have to say - regardless of the reason or explaintion.
It is in fact the explanations and reasons that give the dismissiiveness credence and validity in the person who is dismissing me.

And then I knew.
I experience dismissiveness right here on VESMB.
And I experience it as often here as I do in 3-D life.
So, as I thought about the issue that is pushing its way forward, AND I thought about what I longed to share with someone, anyone who might or is willing to understand or even simply take my word for it when it comes to my experience, rather than coming up with some, ANY explanation about why my experience can be explained away, or is not important or not worth hearing or commenting on or ....
I knew in an instant why this issue became elusive as I approached a computer.
Suddenly - as clear as day, as large as a full moon, both absent from my sight, deep in the caverns and deep in my sleepless night - I say the parallels, running from my past into my future like a railroad track between my longing to express myself to my family and former friends and my longing to be heard here.  In both worlds, I experience dismissiveness.

That sudden vision explained both the longing I have to come here and my powerful concomitant reluctance.  My fits and starts, the overflowing of experiences to share and hope for connection and the unconscious, experience fed fear and expectation that as I begin lifting that enormous, burdensome weight of the manhole cover keeping me in the darkened sewer system away from the light and the hustle and bustle of normal everyday, 21st century american life that cover will be hit and smashed down and my thoughts, words and experiences ignored, denied, explained away, dismissed.  That possibility is too great a risk for me now.  I choose to keep it all to myself because it is safer and surer - to be certain.

[Hopalong]

Oh, GS.
I do not understand what has triggered you here but I am so sorry you are feeling this way.

(((((((((((GS))))))))))

I would truly miss you and I hope you find a way to feel safe here.

with love to you,
Hops

[James]

Exactly...........trust yourself.   James

[lighter]

((((GS)))) I'm sorry you feel dismissed, on the board and IRL.

Lighter

[sKePTiKal]

Are you saying...

that people here don't accept your experiences, explanations - your experiences - at face value, as you state them?

or that it FEELS this way, to you? They are different things, I think.

(((((GS)))))

[Baddaughter]

Don't leave us when we are dismissive.  I've thought long and hard about your post and I know that at times I'm dismissive.  I've been indoctrinated my whole life to "stuff" everything.  My problems, your problems, world problems.  And although I'm striving against narcissism, I know that I have some of the traits, etc.  So we need you here exactly to point out when we are dismissive!  I know sometimes I absolutely don't know what to say because of my lack of knowledge and experience and then I have to be supportive but perhaps bland?  I mean, I want the person to know that I Heard them.  But I sometimes have no clue as to what will help.  And if I can't fix it or suggest something -- perhaps we dismiss because to shoulder more pain is pointless?  My needs and wants have been dismissed my whole life, even by me -- it will take practice to register and process pain properly.  And as most here have overcome so much, it seems like that we can in fact overcome just about anything if we stick it out.  Sometimes I express my pain, but I don't necessarily want anything but to be heard.  Sometimes I am satisfied when my pained outbursts are ignored  -- but I would never ever want to add to anyone else's feelings of isolation or voicelessness.  Many blessings to you in your journey!  Love Biddy

[Twoapenny]

GS - I am sorry if I have ever been dismissive of you.  It would never have been my intention to be that way.  I hope you feel that you could tell me if I said something that upset or hurt you?  I would always rather know - I hate to think that I might have upset someone.  I hope you can find a way to carry on using the board and work on the things that you feel you want to at the time.  Lots of love xxxxx

[James]

GS,

I see you are working very deeply looking for answers, searching for yourself. I found your post to be very honest, courageous and refreshing.  One time several years back i posted that I was sexually aroused during the sexual abuse I went through. I was terrified to share this here as I thought I was awful that this happened. Seconds after I posted a member named Seasons wrote and said something to the effect of "Oh James you are helping so many people". I will never forget what Seasons wrote. Her unselfish gift was written with feeling to me, my heart,in my time of need and I felt it deep inside, still do. It is precious. At my own pace and  in my own way I've discovered that I really do matter.  Jim   

[Gaining Strength]

Since I posted this thread my life has descended into  a series of dark tunnels chasing elusive rabbits.  My father's psychosis has reemerged and his health care is rapidly failing though we are caught in a catch 22 between the medical and legal systems.  He cannot be committed to received psychiatric care against his will presently because he has life-threatening medical conditions.  We are unable to get medical care for him because his doctors will no longer see him because his raging and disruptiveness due to his mania and psychosis are disruptive to their practices.  He will go to the hospital but not to the emergence room which is the only way he can be admitted to receive the  medical care he needs.

He has been driving around with septic infections, taking prescribed narcotics for the pain for the past 25 hours.  I found him parked in his neighborhood with the car running last night at 2am.  Now the police say they will arrest him if he is found in his car because he is driving with a suspended liscense.  If he is arrested he can be taken to the hospital  and treated medically (love how the legal communtiy calls physical ailments "medical" and mental health issues "psych").  It has made for a crazy, crazy time.

I always appreciate the thoughtfulness with which so many people respond on this forum.  This thread is no exception.  I want to start by saying that I did not intend to throw out comments that would make people feel as though I was throwing stones.  So I will try to address that as best I can in just a minute.

Jim - what courage you have in repeated that extraordinary post from several years ago.  I applaud Seasons for her remarkable reply.  How we all need such affirmation for the horrors we have experienced.  Thank you for your comments on this thread.

PR - I am saying the former.
On more than one occassion I have made a statement about something that has happened to me and I have had replies that offer other interpretations than the one I stated.  I expect this behavior IRL but I prefer to avoid such comments in both 3D and on the net.  In my family, my experience was put down, ignored and discounted.  My knowledge, my understanding and my memories were denied, twisted and belittled. 

This format does not really lend itself to filling in the complicated and complete context behind the convoluted world of Nism and other twists and turns of the irrational life with N.  If you ask me - we should not have to fill in that context.

Baddaughter and Twopenny and Hops - I am short of time but not of appreciation for your comments which deserve and will receive a response.  Time is fleeting for me now and I have a meeting in a few minutes that I must finish preparation for but I have been thinking quite a bit about the posts here and feel very strongly that I want to writ to each of you.  But for now I will say simpy and clearly that none of you have written anything that felt dismissive to me but that is the last time I will say that because I did not write to point an accusatory finger but rather to open my wound and let the poison out.  It has been festering and I could not treat it until I named it. 

[Twoapenny]

You've done the right thing, GS, by opening that wound and letting it out.  I didn't take what you'd written as being aimed at anyone in particular, but I'm just aware that sometimes I'm so preoccupied with my own stuff that I can be (inadvertently) a bit short or not respond to a post or comment left by someone else.  I always worry a bit when I read about something on the board and think "oh no, I hope that wasn't me".  And I would always be so sorry if I had upset someone that I would want them to know it wasn't intentional. 

Sorry to hear about your dad.  What a ridiculous system we have where a man who is clearly unwell isn't being treated properly and his family are left to pick up the pieces.  I hope someone does something sensible for him and helps him to start getting better soon and that life starts to get a bit easier for you as well xxx

[sKePTiKal]

Ah. Thanks for clarifying! I'm sorry it's been this way for you. Hope I haven't been a part of that for you. I'm having my own struggles with how I communicate at the moment - and that's sort of what prompted my question. Sometimes my own perception of these interpersonal goings-on is faulty.... sometimes I feel something to be _____________... but later I realize my perception was skewed by some other emotional currents. I know I tend to "translate" or restate things people say... into my own intellectual "system" many times... and I was afraid you might think that was dismissive. I certainly don't intend it that way!!

You obviously don't have time for stuff like that, right now! It sounds like you're going to have your hands full and it's going to be difficult. I think you're as prepared and capable of the challenges - difficult yes, but not insurmountable - as you can be. I hope as you have time to breathe... you'll also reflect here on what you've been going through, too.

I'll be thinking of you and sending you strength... comfort... and I know you'll meet your challenges with grace and dignity.

[Meh]

Gaining Strength: Thank you for sharing. Sometimes I come to this board and I don't really know what I want to say or write about and then I read something like this post that you have written and it comforts me because I feel a little less alone in life when another person like yourself takes the time to put into words the personal experience of being dismissed.

Sometimes I just come to the board and all I can really do is "listen" because I don't always have a lot of energy coming out of me it's just wrapped up sometimes. So I'm glad that you made your post because it is somehow validating to hear it.

I think that sometimes it's hard for me to find my own voice or hear my own voice so it's important to hear some authentic expression from someone else in the meantime.

[Gaining Strength]

This whole process of getting medical and psychiatric care for my father who didn't want it is fully loaded with dismissiveness and absolute craziness.
The clerks at the Probate Court last Wed. gave me fake forms to fill out when I asked to fill out a petition.  I believe they did it because when I went with my father's wife on Tuesday they heard that he had medical conditions that had to be addressed first.

I found the petitions that my brother and I had submitted in 2007 and it wasn't even close to what the jackasses gave me on Wednesday.  Thursday the police were called and they in turn called the paramedics who had seen my father and his ulcerated legs and his mania full blown the day before.  My father was sleeping in his car with the engine running and was reported by the paramedics to be in an altered consciousness.  They transported him to the ER about 1pm.  He was admitted to the hospital that night about 9.  I was there most of that time except for when I had to pick up my child from school and get him fed.
Friday I had to hire round the clock sitters and the hospital had to keep watch because there is a husband wife team who are his accountant and the head of a non-profit that benefits greatly from my father's largess.  These two did everything they could to get him out of the hospital and to keep him from taking his medications when he was hopitalized in 2007.  I had to hire the sitters to keep anyone but family out and my father in. 

Today he was transferred to the psych ward and the whole crazy thing began again.  This time the craziness is not my father but the insanity in dealing with the dychotomy between "medical" and "psych".  This young resident decided that my father needed none of his medications because his disorientation was probably coming from too many medicines and if he really needed them all then maybe he was not ready to leave the hospital and come to psych. 

Wait until my father figures out that he can simply request release.  But maybe this idiot doctor will solve the problem for him and he will end up released from this life entirely.  This resident, based on his 10 minute conversation, with a man whom he acknowledged was not clear thinking, decided that my father no longer needed the heart medicine that he has been on for over 15 years nor any of the other medications for his other medical conditions including an antibiotic for this blazing infected and ulcerated sore on his legs that are incredibly discolored from vascular disfunction, nor does he need the diuretic that he has been taking for the fluid that builds up due to his congestive heart failure (for over 10 years) that has lead to edema for as many years.  Nor does my father need any pain medication because when the doctor asked him if he was in pain my father said no just uncomfortable.  When I asked the doctor if he had looked at my father's legs and the gaping infected sores he said no but that he had looked at the bandages. THE BANDAGES.

There is so much I don't even have the time to write about.  It has been such a crazy, crazy week, fighting the legal system and the medical system and now the psych ward.  Last week we couldn't get him into the hospital because the doctors wouldn't see him to admit him becauuse he was so disruptive.  His cardiologist refused to see him and had him escorted out of the building by security guards, that morning my father sat at the hospital entrance in his car blocking the drive waiting for the doctor to come to his car to admit him.  He would not move but railed and ranted for 20 or 30 minutes.  He was in a manic state.  But the resident tonight said that he did not believe that my father was bi-polar.  HOW IN THE HELL WOULD He KNOW?

And even though it is late, I have papers to pour over looking for evidence of previous diagnoses, which by the way the clerks at the probate court said would not hold because they were made in 2007 - as though mental illness is something like the flu that you simply get over.  This is such a crazy, crazy system - crazy enough to make this patient look almost sane.

Never mind the fact that my father of course has nothing nice to say to me nor about me.  Don't even ask why I am doing this.  The few people who have don't seem  hear me when I answer.  They want to argue with what I have to say, as if they know what I need to do better than I do.  I have simply quit talking to others.  Tired of not being listening to.  Tired of people thinking they know what I need to do better than I do.  Tired of it all.

[sKePTiKal]

I can relate to parts of this, GS - but only parts.
I can hear your distress about why there is no one HELPING, too. (I can relate to that one too)

And I can hear exhaustion and frustration; overwhelmingly.

I wonder, how old your father is? Do the folks who are currently treating him have his full medical records (including the psych)? Have you been able to connect to or talk to, any of the nurses? Sometimes they understand and are more forthcoming with helpful information than the doctors are.

I know the reality of multiple medications - and the cascade of dominos falling that happens when one thing goes out of balance, in an older person. In light of that, sometimes it's better to "start over" - to remove all the medication, establish a new baseline of need, and then slowly re-introduce things based on need and priority. Yes, you're absolutely right to be concerned about this approach - but I would guess that he's being as constantly monitored as his mental state will allow - by the folks who can act quickly, if needed.

I also know how the patient himself can sabotage, thwart, and prevent the people tasked with caring for him from delivering that care. My Dad was evil to his home health aides (we had to pay extra "battle pay" for the people who had to deal with him); he had to be restrained so that he wouldn't pull tubes out (which he did every chance he got). He even decked a nurse he didn't like. It seemed to be intentional, on his part. And if I'd been there, I already knew that there was nothing I could do, to influence him to be "good". I couldn't control him - through any logic, persuasion, or pleading. All I could do was take care of myself - and brace myself for the next episode.

I was impressed with the tone, in what you wrote. You're in "tiger" mode. And you seem absolutely clear on what you want; what outcome you want for your father. I sympathize with you on the idiocy of the bureaucracies and roadblocks and stalling that you're experiencing, in pursuit of that outcome. Are you in a legal position to implement and authorize care?

Having just gone through something that involved serious medical care for MIL - the questions we needed to answer were: does he have a Power of Attorney - and yes, there is a separate POA for health decisions. Does he have a living will and health directive? We
discovered that without these, there wasn't much information at all being provided to us - in fact, it was almost exclusively the other way around - we were asked to provide information, over & over again.

The hardest thing of all - which I know you know - is the long wait without any information from doctors about a.) what's going on and b.) what can they do, will they do. I think we all have unrealistic expectations about how fast the medical system can accurately diagnose and prescribe or treat people, in all cases. Multiple medications just makes that more difficult, because of potential interactions between the medications and individual pharmaceutical side effects.

So, the doctors & nurses tend to do nothing except stabilize a patient, until they are absolutely sure they know what to do - and that it won't just make things worse. And even that has a negative side effect - on those who care, like you GS...

... my advice? Make SURE you are taking care of yourself and your son. If there's nothing to, except to "be there" with your dad... then by all means, go home - make a cuppa tea - take a nap. Schedule daily visits if you want - but make sure you're also taking care of you. It sounds like it's going to take some time for the doctors to gather all the info they want, before they start to talk about what's going on, and where to go from there. And they are listening to you, GS... that's still important information to them - but they've got to confirm it, themselves.

[Hopalong]

((((((((GS)))))))))

Total dittos about self care right now.

Nobody in authority will ever get it as completely as you do.
Taking him off all meds to assess what's causing what does sound like medical sense.

Your Dad is walking into his own mortality and karma and its ugliness is not your responsibility.

You can do the best you can to be helpful but you will be better off, imo, if you truly work at
releasing the outcome.

Despite your insights, this is so beyond your control.

Take care of yourself.

And I'm sorry your mother is broken too.

You are whole.

xo
Hops