NC and Losing

[bearwithme]

Well, here I am again.  Some of you may remembered my situation:  I'm the one who threw my Nmom out and literally threw her luggage onto my front lawn along with phone, purse, make-up bag, personal things, etc.  These items, along with her, went out my front door via my emotional breakdown of not being able to sustain the "coping" mechanism which failed completely or was never there in the first place.  Don't really know at this point.

Well, I've been NC for 9 and 1/2 months. This is a first for me.  It is really bizarre.  Nmom has called me to try to contact my three year old daughter. I know Nmom is hurting tremendously over this.  I know Nmom is really missing the baby, her only grandchild...blah, blah, blah.  As you know, I have the guilt and shame over this but have been going along with NC quite well, regardless.   

But here's the kicker:  I have no analogy other than this one to describe going NC.  So here it goes.

Although I don't gamble in the least bit, I liken this difficult, but necessary situation of mine to like a card game in Las Vegas, or like Poker or something.  My Nmom is the card dealer with all the tricks up her sleeve and I am the player and no matter WHAT hand I am dealt, it is all the same. It's like I could have a full deck, half deck, full house, royal flush, black jack, full straight, no straight, all aces, no aces, no cards or all cards, ball in my court, my turn, my say, my rules and the whole world in my hands where I walk away with all the money in the Casino and beat her at her own game.  But:

It is all the same outcome. No matter what hand I play it is ALL THE SAME.  It doesn't matter one bit what hand I play and I'm the foolish one for thinking I could play this game in the first place.
 
I feel the same.  I still talk to the couch and counsel myself in the mirror.  When I drive down the road on my long commute, I still find myself talking to my steering wheel.  I still get sad.  I still argue with the walls.  I still get depressed and feel hurt.  I grieve and mourn.  I still justify my actions for throwing her out of my house and verbally tell this to my pillow at night.  I get furiously angry at the thought of what she said to my husband and want to punch her lights out.  I find myself reenacting our last conversation as I have done for 35 years.  I still want  no conflict in my life and want to hug her and say sorry.  My heart breaks every day.  I feel the same towards her. I feel no resolve.  I feel no peace. 

After all this hard work and all this effort to go NC.  After my big blow up and after realizing that I couldn't have her in my life anymore and after finally doing something about it, it has resulted in this?  The let down is immense.  I'm dissappointed in it all.

However, I would not change one moment of this and I do not regret going NC whatsoever. But can you see my dilemma?  It is by far the hardest thing to explain to someone who does now know so I'm hoping you can understand me somewhere in this post.

I can only say this:  Thus far, I have gain perspective.  Perspective that she is mentally ill.  I understand a little better of who she REALLY is and therefore, who I am. I think.  I have perspective about her terminal narcissism.  The Holidays were tough.  She sent at least $950.00 worth of Christmas presents to my three year old daughter totally overcompensating for not seeing her for 9 and 1/2 months when my brother is filing BK and my husband and I could use that money for her college or other meaningful things....selfish sounding, I know, but that's how I feel. 

Things are no better or no worse.  Why?  I must consider the fact that I may go on through my life like this and it may subside and perhaps it never will.  I must be prepared that even when she's dead, I will still argue with the sofa and scream at my steering wheel. 

When I was not NC, I was just a bit more smothered in her N'ism and strangled by my anger.  Now, I don't feel smothered or strangled but I feel I'm left to die from the open wounds that just won't heal quick enough and I bleed out.

Sorry for my long, extravagant rant.  I have the perspective that there is no peace.  True peace.  The peace you get when you say sorry to someone when you have hurt them.  The Peace you get when you give of yourself without the asking.  The Peace you get when you don't have to worry about justifying yourself.  True peace is not forgiveness.  It is not understanding and it is not taking matters into your own hands and showing my Nmom who lays the rules and boundaries.  True Peace with an Nmom does not exist. 

Thanks for listening.

Bear.

[Gaining Strength]

Don't give up on finding the pea ce.  It may come yet.  Don't give up.

On your daughter.  I have believed for 10 years that she really (My N mother) does love my 10 year old son. (My father let me and my son son in no uncertain terms that he does not care about either one of us.  My son does not yet know what a gift that is.)  I FINALLY figured out it was all an N ploy.  She says all the right things - sort of but I finally say through her actions.  She does not LOVE my son but she was getting some N fodder from him and perhaps your mother is doing something similar.  I'll try to explain.

Oh by the way - everytime, I have had enough (or my son has had enough) of my N mother's antics and we leave not happy, she tries to "buy" our attention back.  I'm thinking that your mother was doing the same with all the Christmas gifts.  My mother will write me a check or purchase a large Lego for my son and then call and say she has something for lus..  What finally got through to me was yet another experience last week when I was back and forth between the hospital wherre my father was in the emergency room awaiting admitting and I asked her if my son could stay with her while I was at the hospital.  When I droppped him off - before I could walk in her door, she asked with exasperation how long it would take me and when would I be picking up my son  - then in a flash, I suddenly saw a larger truth - she is as incapable of loving him as she is of loving me or my nephews or my brothers or anyone.  How did her question, her simply question reveal that?  It would be hard to explain except thatunder the circumstances, in that it was an emergency and that she knew that I had been working for 4 days to get my father INTO the hospital (she had taken the first call about my father from authorities looking for me on Monday and this was Thursday).  My son had headed upstairs.  She did not need to speak to him or even be bothered.  He would be upstairs doing homework and watching TV and playing uptil  I picked him up and could put himself to bed if I was held up.  NOTHING was required of her AT ALL.  And yet she was clearly feeling put out.  NOT the least bit interested in helping me OR having the pleasure of my son's company.  SHE DIDN'T WANT HIM THERE.  Then I knew and I suspect your mother might be doing the same thing = buying for your daughter in order to shine the light back on herself.

When my 10 year old told me that he won't really be missing my grandmother when she dies but he will miss his step-grandmother, I knew he had a better vision than I did.  I bet your won daughter may lead you into the light about feeling better in the years to come.

[lighter]

I don't know.....

peace might start creeping when you've talked to the sofa,
enough.

Screamed at the steering wheel,
enough.

Cried over never getting to say you're sorry,
enough.

Grieved over the loss of the mother, you never really had,
enough.

Without reservation.  Just let it go, full steam ahead.  

Let it all out.

You've moved yourself beyond feeling smothered, and strangled by legitimate anger.  Does this feel less terrible?

I think time, and understanding, might move you through this new lingering stink of regret and confusion.....

maybe this is what it feels like when hope dies.

Maybe finding a good psychotherapist can help you internalize and accept..... find some peace.

I'm so sorry you're living this awful loop...... I know it goes round and round.  

You feel trapped in your head with the thoughts that refuse to make sense.

How about looking at it like this.......

think of all the future conversations, you won't have to have, with your daughter and husband about your mother's toxic, non sensical, crazy making behavior that will never make sense, no matter what they do either.  

You're suffering.

Your child isn't.

Your husband isn't.

They won't, bc of the choice you made.

((((bear))))  I pray you find grace and closure.

Lighter

[Twoapenny]

Bear (((((((((((())))))))))))))

It took 35 years for you to reach breaking point.  Peace may come (I see it on the horizon for me).  But it takes a long time.

I've been actively working on dealing with my mum for ten years and have been NC for four.  She did similar things with my son as your mum has done with your daughter.  I think one of the saddest things about people who suffer from NPD is that they don't love anyone in a warm, healthy way.  I doubt your mum loves your daughter the way you do - unconditionally, with all your heart, however she may behave, act up, look, feel etc.  What Ns love is control.  And young children are easy to control - especially when you can spend a fortune on expensive gifts and make yourself look like a fairy godmother in the process

Do I miss my mum?  No

Do I want to see my mum?  No

Do I want her around my son?  No

But do I want to have a mum?  God, yes

Would I like to live across the road from a warm and caring lady who pops round for a cuppa, hugs me, tells me she loves me, shares her recipes with me and tells me stories about 'the old days'?  You bet I would.

Would I like my son to have a warm, healthy family who love him, care for him and support him?  Of course I would.

And if my mum called me and said she'd been in therapy for two years and she really wanted to work on us and would I go and meet her, would I go?  I'd be round there before she put the phone down.

And I think that's what's so hard.  We all want a mum, we want to be loved, cherished, cared for and all the rest of it.  And NPD stops people from doing that.  Like you, I find it easier to think of my mum as being ill, rather than wicked or nasty.  It's almost like a contagious disease - if you're around it, it affects you.  I think what you're going through now is a very healthy, normal part of the process.  I find it peaks and troughs - sometimes I cope just fine, other times there's a hole in my heart so big I think I could fall inside it.  As hard as it is, you know that being around your mum causes problems that you find difficult to deal with.  Some people can manage to have some sort of relationship - they can keep a bit of a distance, keep their self-esteem in tact and deal with things as they come up.  Maybe that will be you one day.  Maybe you'll never be in touch again.  But through all of it you have to protect you and your family first, and it is hard.  But it does start to level out and eventually things get better for longer and longer periods and who knows?  I doubt it ever goes away completely.  But I think you get to a point where it is just a part of your life that you manage, and there is a kind of sense of peace with that.

Thinking of you.  I know it's hard ((((())))) xxxx

[Hopalong]

(((((((((Bear)))))))))))))

You're grieving. It's slow.

Grief is very slow and hard when it's complicated by Nism.

But it WILL get better with time.

This pain and loss is not your future. It's what you're weathering now.

Trust the flow of time, and the wisdom of the universe.
There is space for her, for her, for all of it to flow out.

Try to be present to yourself and be extremely forgiving of yourself.
You do know she's like a rhino. Not safe with children of any age.

And grieving, you're probably grieving for her as well.
It is a tragic condition. And one day, you will feel released, just
by knowing it's as cruel as an act of nature, and no more personal.

love,
Hops

[Guest]

Bear I've nothing to add to these replies other than it will subside; if you are anything like me, it will. It won't be some dramatic moment or revelation, more a slow letting go and realising that it no longer matters. You're not losing Bear - unless it's losing the attachment of a lifetime. Let it go in its own time and one day you'll notice that it's not there. That it was just someone you used to know.

edit: I passed this over before but realised I had to say something, not to question you, Twoapenny, but to voice my own reaction which was so swift I almost missed it!

And if my mum called me and said she'd been in therapy for two years and she really wanted to work on us and would I go and meet her, would I go?  I'd be round there before she put the phone down.

I'd say: "no thanks". There are only a couple places where I might want to see my mother and in one of them she isn't alive. I don't expect to see her again in any social/ordinary situation, I don't want to. Just my view there. Other views are equally valid etc etc.

[Butterfly]

Hi, Bear.  ((((bear))))  So good to hear from you.  I have not posted in a long time, but your message prompted me to. 

I have been NC from Nmom and Ndad for three years now.  The first year I struggled as you are doing--guilt, fear, sadness.  But, then, after a year or so, I felt a bit better.  The guilt was the first negative feeling to disappear.  And, then, after two years, a lot better.  The sadness has greatly diminished.  And, now, I live.  I actually live my life without Nmom's emotional tentacles wrapped around me.  It took time to achieve some peace, but for me it was as if I emerged from a long dark tunnel and saw the sunshine.  I blinked at first and resisted but them embraced the openness and freedom.  Like Hops says, grief is slow, time helps. 

You are right about the game--no matter how well you play it, you will never win.  So, you are left with the following choices:  continue to lose or stop playing.  From my experience, only one choice brings what you seek. 

Another thing I've noticed, I am learning to be proud of myself for choosing to live my life the best way for me (removing emotionally disastrous people from my life).  I see positive relationships forming that were not there before which is self-affirming since I was not aware such relationships existed.  My marriage is better.  My parenting is better.  And, my children have not missed her one bit. 

(I wish I could have seen you toss her out.  Like Athena emerging . . .)

Hugs,
Joy

[Twoapenny]

Hi Guest,

I know exactly what you mean, I felt the same way for a long time.  I hated her so much I just wished she was dead.  But it's kind of gone now.  I can't say why or how, or even if it will stay gone.  But I ache for a mum and if I had the chance to get one that was at least trying to be healthy I'd take it.  A year ago I wouldn't have stopped to help if I'd seen her get hit by a car.  It's a funny process!

Twoapenny xx

[Guest]

Hi Twoapenny
I wouldn't say I hate her, although I have probably felt that. I accept the fact that she is - and has been - mentally disordered. The least I see of her, the better. I have my own life to live, know what I mean? I don't want or need a mother either, no aches. On the other hand, if I saw anyone get hit by a car, I'd go to help them. Couldn't help myself there but it doesn't mean I want an attachment to them. Attachment is not the same as compassion.
It sure is a funny process, no doubt about that!

[Hopalong]

Attachment is not the same as compassion.

Thank you, Guest!

I really appreciate pith.

Hops

[sKePTiKal]

You are right about the game--no matter how well you play it, you will never win.  So, you are left with the following choices:  continue to lose or stop playing.  From my experience, only one choice brings what you seek. 

Hi Bear, the way butterfly said this is how I finally saw my choice, too.

The bad feelings... and constant rehashing... and even the wishing for what I didn't have... all diminished and subsided after I chose to "stop playing". Not completely gone, mind you - but quieted down enough that it was finally possible to work through them to even more freedom.

I'm gonna make what might sound like a wacked-out crazy suggestion. I'm not even sure how "sane" it is - all I know is it works sometimes. That is, to look for "mother" and "mothering" somewhere else - in someone else. I have a friend from jr. high... and we mothered each other to adulthood. I am mothered by people here on the board (you all know who you are!). My tai chi teacher was a type of mother... different people, fulfilled different aspects of "mother" for me. I've been mothered by men, even. And then, I think maybe you have an older neighbor... someone who doesn't have a lot of family nearby, who's lonely... and would love company and a little help doing things she can't anymore... someone who was a "good enough" mom herself, you know? Just being friends with someone like this can fill that yearning you have.

And I've found some comfort and solace in mothering others, too. The "giving" of mothering or "being" motherly has the same healing properties as being mothered. We can learn to mother ourselves, too. To have a relationship with ourselves to fulfill those needs.

[bearwithme]

My gosh!  What an outpouring of wisdom and experience in these posts.  I have to say, they all brought me to tears. 

then in a flash, I suddenly saw a larger truth - she is as incapable of loving him as she is of loving me or my nephews or my brothers or anyone

  GS: your "flash" is one that I had as well.  It's like an epiphany of sorts, like sudden wisdom.

Lighter, you said

maybe this is what it feels like when hope dies.

  This is so profound and it knocked me off me feet.  I think this is what is happening to me.  My hope is dying.  The hope I always had-hoping I could just cope with her behavior and hope that I could handle it, and hope that I could include her in my life and in social situations, I could just "somehow" ignore her.  Hope that I could "rise-above" and figure it all out on my terms.  Hope that I could have a mother who loves me unconditionally. 

TAP: 

Do I miss my mum?  No

Do I want to see my mum?  No

Do I want her around my son?  No

But do I want to have a mum?  God, yes

Amazing to me now Nmom's are all the same!!  They make their children feel this?  I feel exactly the same way - no different.  I'm so glad that you shared this.

Hops:  Grieving is so slow. Yes.  N's have not a clue what they cause us to go through, yet, we have to almost die ourselves in order to live on the other side.  I think I grieve because it feels good, like it comes naturally and I shouldn't shun it away.  I need to embrace my grief so I can heal as you seem to have.

Guest:

You're not losing Bear - unless it's losing the attachment of a lifetime.

  You nailed it.  I AM losing the attachment of a lifetime.  My god how this made me realize just that.  Plain and simple.  I'm attached as any child would be to their mother.  I'm 5 years old and holding onto her skirt and trying to hide from strangers.  I'm 12 years old wanting my mother to hold me when I cry over stupid things.  I'm 16 years old wanting my mother to be there for me and listen to my adolescent issues and drama of a life.  Instead, I got a self centered rage aholic who used me for her own needs, etc.

Butterfly: you should have seen me throw her out!  I have found out from my brother that she has been saying that I "beat" her and she has incurable bruising.  She has told people that I battered her and she has physical scaring to prove it.  I can't believe this.  Although I did "manhandle" her and physically turn her body around and push her out the door, I by no means "beat" her.  Amazing her distortion of the truth.

Phoenix: 

The bad feelings... and constant rehashing... and even the wishing for what I didn't have... all diminished and subsided after I chose to "stop playing". Not completely gone, mind you - but quieted down enough that it was finally possible to work through them to even more freedom.

   This is my fate when I "stop playing" which I think I almost doing now.  I'm waiting for my freedom from these feelings of grief and guilt and overall hopelessness. 

My Nmom is mentally ill.  She has not a clue about anything and never has.  This is sad to me.  All those years of wondering what was wrong with "me" and instead it was "her."  She will never connect the dots.  Never.  She is sick.  She has to be to do what she has done.  I'm coming to terms with this and it has helped me get through a lot of guilt and shame.

Phoenix mentioned that I could look for others with mothering qualities.  Strangely, I have done this subconsciously throughout my adult life.  I have several older friends that I let "mother" me.  It just happend that way without me realizing the real reason why.


 You all rock!

Bear

[Guest]

Bear! 

For anyone like me, who has just a tad of trouble with the word MOTHER, it might be an idea to replace it with nurturer or something else. I don't want anyone to MOTHER me! Anyone know about the therapist who actually adopted her older female client? For real? WTF. That's just not right you know. I don't care if it's symbolic, helping, etc it's sick. Something very not right in that relationship.

Anyway, Bear!

[sKePTiKal]

LOL Guest...

I actually irritated bioNic mom for years... because I started calling her "mother"... as in, for me: mother-$%(4'r.

It suited the teenaged me and helped with the idea of withdrawing or separating from that relationship. Unconscious, mostly. Symbolic, for sure, of all the disappointment, rage, grief, and.... what to call it - maybe abandonment - that I felt because to have a relationship with her, meant I had to be the mother in the relationship. The adult in the house.... and I knew I wasn't; I needed an adult... I suffered from so many emotional deprivations; I knew those emotional connections and learning existed; just not for me.

But the ability to find mothering or to mother others? For me, that's not sick - it's manna from heaven and I wouldn't have survived without it! It's also what I'm finding is the essential ingredient in creating a recipe to thrive - not just merely survive.

[Guest]

Amber....I admit I had thought of that mother! But it's just a word, everyone needs nurture. I just wouldn't call it 'mothering'.

A female therapist legally adopting her older female client as a 'child' - you feel okay with that...?