Does any of this seem familiar?

[SilverLining]

Hi everybody.  

I feel like I have been thrown back to square one in my understanding of N behavior.   For some years now, I have written mostly about the things my father didn't provide, such as validation or any kind of emotional encouragement.  Now it seems I am dealing with a far more active type of N-ish behavior from my mother.  Starting late last year and continuing this year I have been barraged with her self absorbed babble, gripes, and hostilities.  A lot of this started during the Christmas visit I described a couple of weeks ago.  Now she calls me every couple of days with some trivial issue, then quickly flips the topic back to her problems with virtually everybody she has ever known.  She seems to phase in and out of just about every "neurosis" I have ever heard of.  One moment it's a persecution complex, then a God complex, then feelings of inferiority.  Her mood swings violently back and forth.  One minute she's complaining about being "punished" by people for decades,  then a moment later the story changes and she can even seem halfway rational.   She keeps congratulating herself on her social skills and ability to "read" others, then proceeds to read all sorts of evil intentions toward her into their activities.  She's obviously the center of everybody's world.  

And the same stories are told over and over.  Not just once or twice but as many times as anybody is willing to listen.  It seems she is completely unable to let anything go.  The gripes go back 60 years.  She especially likes to beat up her father, who has been dead for 30 years.  My father is also a major target.

She actually went for a some sessions of therapy a couple of months ago (which was probably the most promising thing I had heard from the FOO in years).    But after a few sessions she decided she didn't need to go anymore.   Why should she go to therapy when it's everybody around her who is causing all the problems?  She claims the therapist confirms this interpretation, which I find hard to believe.  

I don't know what to do with this stuff other than bump up my commitment to keeping her and the rest of the FOO at a distance.  It has been messing with my head lately.  Just the sheer volume of negativity is hard to take.  

It's disturbing but also enlightening.  It confirms my feelings that the family life was a bizarre mess.   Things are worse now with my mother than ever before, but I believe this sort of behavior was always sort of the background of the family life.    It's like age has removed her ability to keep anything to herself and now others get a disturbing  glimpse into her sick mental processes.

My father is seeming a portrait of mental health compared to my mother these days..

Anybody else have any similar experiences with your N's?

[Twoapenny]

Silver, it sounds very familiar!  I won't go into loads of examples, but there have been times in my life when I have been in very difficult situations and my mum would always make it about her.  Everyone's jealous of her, everyone wishes they could be more like her, she has a very strict set of rules that everyone else has to live by (even though she never did).  I see 'N' behaviour around me more and more.  I don't know if this is just because I'm understanding more, so I notice it, or if it's just because it's often on my mind.  I find it very difficult sometimes with my sister, who can sometimes be so self absorbed it's breathtaking. Only last week she came round for an hour, talked about herself the whole time she was here and then left.  She didn't even ask how I was, it was just an endless monologue.  Like you, I've found distance is the only thing that works for me.  It's very difficult to absorb it without it causing problems. I feel for you! (((((((())))))))))

[Hopalong]

the thing I relate to most here, Silver, is the absolutely relentless and mindless repetition of their stories.

it's sort of a ritual, and I wonder if Ns' recitations of the same stories (in the SAME way and to the SAME -- near exhausted -- listener) is a kind of "self medication."

Used to take me a whole lot of "self-soothing" to get over her "self medication." Her narratives were more insipid and less paranoid than your mother's, though. But in some way they made me want to scream.

I catch myself telling my own "capsule tales" occasionally and when I catch myself, I come to a screeching halt. Hopefully. (Don't search my years of posts, you'll find me repeating. Aaagggh.)

From so many years as a frozenly courteous listener, that there's no connecting going on, when the monologue is just recycling...maybe there are tiny shifts in emphasis, or maybe she feels as though she's moving forward through her drama, but to the audience, it's like "Groundhog Day."

Does it feel like that to you?

Hops

[nolongeraslave]

A N rambling on about what others have done to them reminds me of a double binded message my mom gave me. She thought that I should be able to snap out of my problems and that I'm not trying hard enough.  When it came to her, it was okay for to preach on about the same thing.  Narcissists play victim and act as if everyone has wronged them.

If the therapist "agrees", the therapist may just have validated her story....but that doesn't mean the therapist agrees with her.  Or, the therapist is someone who is fooled by narcissists (I've seen that happen quite a few times).

[sKePTiKal]

Hey SL...

I came to understand this behavior, as a boundary violation from my mom. She simply didn't care if I'd just sat down to dinner, had company, or anything. I was programmed to simply sit, listen, and occasionally say "uh-huh" while she ranted on & on. My T told me I didn't have to do this... and to try cutting her short, to see how I felt. When she calls, just tell her I can't talk now and hang up. I still get a slightly sick to my stomach nervousness, even thinking about it. As if I'm bad daughter... not allowed to do this... I have to suffer through this or ELSE.

But after the first couple times, it got easier. Then, I started using caller ID to my advantage. If I was already in an exhausted or fragile place, I simply didn't pick up. Let her leave voicemail and check it later - even if only minutes - because then it really is a one-way message... often she simply doesn't leave a message or says, "you're not there - where are you? I'll try to call you later". I'm 54, do I have to tell my mother where I am, all the time?

Then, I started changing tactics. When she'd claim how hopeless a situation was... I'd suggest this or that way she could take some action. Of course, there was always something wrong with those suggestions. But the next time she recycled that rant - I'd repeat my suggestions. Or I'd ask: well, what have you tried to do, so far? What's the first step?

I think she feels that by relating the same crap over & over, she feels in some way... she's also making me responsible for "knowing" her "side of the story". And it's her way of pretending to have a relationship with me... without actually engaging in one. Boundary violations are what she considers "being close" to me. I see it quite a bit differently. When I've pointed out a few places where she's clearly delusional or paranoid or just flat out making things up... well, she has to go; has something she has to do.

She doesn't call nearly as much now.

[SilverLining]

Hi Everybody.  Thanks so much for the replies.  I'll respond in more detail later but starting at the top:

Tupp.  We seem to have a lot of similar experiences.  My mother also claims others are "jealous" of her and her social abilities.  And I am seeing much more N behavior in the FOO than I ever understood before.  My sister is the worst of the bunch, combining (I believe) a deadly combination of both my parents problems.     

I've kept a distance from the lot of them for decades now, but I'm making it a more conscious decision.  I suppose at this point I don't need to make it a confrontional declaration of "No Contact", but I'm just going to give up expecting any sort of positive relationship.  If they call, email me, or whatever, I'll respond but that's about it. 

[SilverLining]

it's sort of a ritual, and I wonder if Ns' recitations of the same stories (in the SAME way and to the SAME -- near exhausted -- listener) is a kind of "self medication."

Used to take me a whole lot of "self-soothing" to get over her "self medication." Her narratives were more insipid and less paranoid than your mother's, though. But in some way they made me want to scream.

Hops

Hi Hops.  The idea of "self medication" makes a lot of sense to me.  I've wondered if my mother is lacking the brain chemistry/structure which allows healthy people to get over past insults and slights.  So instead she repeats the stories over and over, just to get a little dose of the "medication".   Then as the story gets repeated, it gets distorted, kind of like a copy of a photocopy.  Decades go by, and the story gets so far distorted from the "truth" it appears insane to others.  But she never gets healed, so the process continues.  

So yes it is a lot like the first part of "Groundhog Day", at least the first part when Bill Murray was getting more and more destructive.  I keep hoping maybe she'll hit bottom one day and start progressing in a positive direction, the way Bill did in the second half of the movie.  I have high hopes but low expectations.    

And I also have needed a lot of "self soothing" after exposure to all this toxic stuff.  Finding people who had similar experiences is a great help.  


Hi NLAS.   I think my mother repeated the story about the therapist enough times to expose the truth.  At first she claimed an outright validation of her POV.  But later it sounded more like she made the decision to quit therapy herself, without support from the therapist.   It's hard to talk constantly and keep a pack of lies straight.  

Hi Phoenix.  Telling "her side of the story" is one of my mother's favorite lines.  I also get the feeling she is trying in a warped way to establish a "legacy" by trashing everybody else, making herself look better by comparison. Like you, I'm starting to make better use of the answering machine.   If she says she'll "call back later"  I don't presume I need to return the call.   With some more work I'll get this back to a proper 600 mile long arm's length relationship.  

[sKePTiKal]

SL - I hope you don't take this the wrong way! My cynicism about my mom's phone calls - after 30 years of experiencing them - is pretty solid these days.

YES... after one of those "listening" sessions... I have to sort of transition back to "normal" life. Sometimes, I'm just angry that I've let myself be used for this purpose once again. Sometimes, there is a feeling of total exhaustion - as if just sitting there for the Nth time, listening to the same crap (or carp) once again - has somehow "erased" me. And even the times I've "talked back" - interrupting her train of thought; changing the subject; or offering real, useful suggestions for helping herself - I still feel somehow... well, dirty comes to mind. Bad even. But with a sense also, that with time I can do this and come away only affected for a few minutes... I'm getting better; I'm "winning" - in the sense Bear was talking about in her thread.

I'd like to be able to say that it was compassion that keeps me picking up the phone and putting myself through this - that I understand this is how she convinces herself we have a relationship, and so I don't want to burst that little bubble of delusion. But it's not. For me, it's more like validation these days. Nothing's changed about her in all these years, except maybe her delusions are more entrenched; more solid & real to her... so it's a little self-validation that the healing I've done wasn't just some selfish inner readjustment; there was a real reason I needed to go through this.

And gradually, over years of time, I'm "training" her. I'm training her to talk TO me; not at me. And to hear me.... at least I've convinced myself that maybe I am getting through to her, at least a little. I was so well trained to protect her - to be the adult in the relationship even though she's only a one-way "broadcast" and hardly ever a "conversation" relationally - that going NC completely would tweak my own self-judgement of myself in a bad way; this phone call scenario is a compromise... not the best one out there maybe... because it's so hard for her to converse - to hear others over the din of her own monologue - she's given up calling so often. I don't miss it or her.

I completely relate to your "high hopes and low expection" of change!

[SilverLining]

SL - I hope you don't take this the wrong way! My cynicism about my mom's phone calls - after 30 years of experiencing them - is pretty solid these days.

YES... after one of those "listening" sessions... I have to sort of transition back to "normal" life. Sometimes, I'm just angry that I've let myself be used for this purpose once again. Sometimes, there is a feeling of total exhaustion - as if just sitting there for the Nth time, listening to the same crap (or carp) once again - has somehow "erased" me. And even the times I've "talked back" - interrupting her train of thought; changing the subject; or offering real, useful suggestions for helping herself - I still feel somehow... well, dirty comes to mind. Bad even. But with a sense also, that with time I can do this and come away only affected for a few minutes... I'm getting better; I'm "winning" - in the sense Bear was talking about in her thread.

I can relate right down the line.  I almost feel like I need some sort of detoxification process to recover from these sessions.  Prior to the past few months I was sort of used to my mothers usual self absorption.  Conversations with her have always been primarily about her (same as with my father).  But the descent into extreme constant hostility is a new development.  I've only had one message from her in the last week, so that's a good sign.

In spite of the challenges, at some level I'm feeling good lately.  A lot more "pieces of the puzzle" are coming together.  I'm getting a whole new feel for the trauma caused me by the entire FOO situation.  I felt pretty much totally alone and voiceless in this environment from about age 6 onward.   

[sKePTiKal]

Isn't it odd?

Even as little children we're aware that something's "not right" with our parents... but then that aware is somehow "trained" out of us.

[SilverLining]

Here's another question:  Does anybody else have the feeling their FOO's are fixated in some past time? Lately I've been having the weird feeling every member of my FOO (other than myself, of course  )  is stuck around 1975 and that they really do not want to give up issues and animosities from decades ago.  Their very identity is based on the whole dysfunctional process.   Hostility and negativity is what keeps the whole thing together, and I'm  tired of being involved.   I've gotten to where I can see and recognize the issues, but it doesn't have much of an emotional charge anymore, except when I make the mistake of letting myself get pulled into their stuff. 

[debkor]

Hi Silver,

I have been reading your post and want to know if you or anyone feels like I do.  There is not one thing that you have written on here that I haven't felt the same (pretty much on any post ever written since I joined). 

I have been doing much thinking about being effected by N.  I'm not sure if I was as effected by N or worse ex-H then I was by N friend.  I didn't spend to much time with ex-h and pretty much was on survival mode (for self and my children) at that time.  The friend is another story.  I'd like to explain how I feel.

I feel they speak out of both sides of thier mouths.  Like they are two different people.  Like they argue with themselves.  Like they protect or accuse (themselves)
Like they hold one accountable and the other not.  Like they cover all ends...Yes I did but No I didn't...in the same sentence.  I told you that/I didn't tell you that...
That did happen/that didn't happen.....That was in the past (speaking in present moment) and planning future moments ...of the I did/but didn't...the yes/but No's...and least us forget....the World that can back you up on this ...and corner them with the Yes but No that it won't work......Then we have.....
Pictures, signed sealed and delivered, video tapes.....FACT....(into another stage) of ....I do not remember doing or saying that...So if they don't remember (with all listed) they are not saying it didn't happen BUT not saying it did.  So it's still Yes but No.

You could be typing or even tape thier own words Play it Back and they will still say...Yes but No. 

And then when it becomes too much for them as CB (I think) wrote about the glazed over look when confronted ...They just go elsewhere!

Is there a difference (for me) with both N's I have known?  Yes  with some things.   They are both dangerous in different ways.  My ex-h was surely Nuts with criminal acts (really out there) and extreme and the nice next door All Amercan guy (at the same time).  Would blow you away if he had to (and almost came to that) when someone became a threat (like me).  Alright I know now.   Yet other's do not (even though) they know the criminal history to date.  He a nice guy that made mistakes.  He is a really sick guy and still is (just knows how to live in this world) with no threats and if there is one (knows how to live with them too). He removes them.  This brings me to thoughts on GS's thread ...Dismissiveness...

Yes I do believe N will dismiss you and other's will dismiss you (innocent people) because they don't see/or have been treated different then we have...The ones being dismissed  I don't think we really are dismissed we won't allow it (not with ourselves).  I do believe that N's know that (kindof like talking out of both sides of thier mouth) yes but no...I am, I'm not.....and we hold them accountable for what they have done...No matter what!  We don't change our minds, our thoughts, or the facts.  It's just not going to happen as they are just not going to happen (One Day) to be normal. 

Which brings me to Dr G's thoughts....how we are sensitive to people as them (yet other's are not).  How the mental health field and the changes going to happen with diagnosis (effected us).  For me it felt like the Yes but No's from N"s and the Yes but No's from mental health..Still feels Dismissive from other's ...but will never be dismissed with me.

I'm not talking about anger either.  I'm not talking about frustration (I know what they are) but one is not the same as the other...danerous yes...in different ways.

Either of the N's I know are dangerous to me any more.  One was mental health dangerous and the other Both.  One would have killed your soul and take your breath and body out  of this world and the other would have killed your soul (if you let them).  Neither appeared crazy to anyone other then the ones (42/7 effected by them.  Other's would not have noticed (especially with the ones that are just emotional killers).

With the 2nd N I know ( a mother) a friend was killing her children's (spirit and soul).  I knew this.  I even was asked into therapy with her (when she shortly attended) I was not dismissed (by T) and got the feeling..do what ya gotta do...and in T ...she spoke out of both side's of her mouth.  It was not seeing all area's...it was different.....I could not dismiss (what I knew) saw, facts, life....even N's truth..real truth about her life.  That was true.  Everything about them is not always a lie (her feelings of abandonment and worthlessness) were not lies.  The rest of the (dismissiveness) towards her children and every other being on this planet was not so much lies (put lets pretend) magical thinking...well yes but No, I do not recall, I glaze over (Time to go somewhere else) to all the things you wrote Silver including the past and everyone that has harmed her, to present moment, to future ..and sometimes even talking rational.

As time went on with friend it became worse.  The end result (and it's not ended) children screaming out for help and eventually removed from her care.

They have no idea (of the real thing).  One has no (hope) compassion but no hope (fear and many things to be worked out) accepted something is very (mentally ill) the other has nothing but hatred ..and the other see's nothing but (what I call Aunt Mommy) fun Mom. 

It will be a long road for them all.  The older two hold her responsible (one a bit ahead of the other) and the little one (not at all).
 

[debkor]

Sorry hit something again and promise I am going to end this.  It's longer then I expected I would write.

Anyway, the bottom line is How I feel....Is that to think about what takes place with N and going into your emotions/thoughts about what took place, what in the world, is stepping into Madness  ...Trying to figure out what they think, how they tick, how they reply or don't reply, how you lived that they claim you didn't but you did, but not really, or don't recall, or glaze over to magical thinking world of let's pretend but not be there.....well ya all know what I"m talking about.....

All the innocent people (that I know I felt dismissed by at one time) are dismissed (by me now) wanting to hold them accountable for being proxy, stand by's, of not knowing because they didn't.....or they had been broken spirit's and souls ....by N themselves.

The only way I could have helped my friends children (truly knowing) the insanity was because....I'm sensitive to it.  I may have been one of those (innocent people) really not knowing.  I know it because I lived it.  I know it (because I know all of you). 

But yes it all seems way to familiar. 

It may come down to help for these children again and I'm writing because I can't step into insanity again and this time they (might have to placed into another's care) which I thought about but I really, really, can't do it.   And I'm struggling with that.

Love
Deb

[Guest]

CB

Then the guy was nice and swore that none of the threats etc had ever happened.  I had imagined them.

So he was either a fantasist or a bare-faced liar? Or maybe too much ganga had haddled his brain and he mixed up what he just thought and what he actually said? Whichever, I don't hang around with people who lie like that.

Yes, there are a few trustworthy souls and they're like gold but they are there. You just gotta hang on to one or two when you find them I guess.

Re your last para, may I add: employers who don't screw every last ounce out of employees, some treating people as slaves etc etc oh and poisoning their customers and the planet in pursuit of share prices?

I call it realism. Keep looking for people gold!

[SilverLining]

Hi Silver,

I feel they speak out of both sides of thier mouths.  Like they are two different people.  Like they argue with themselves.  Like they protect or accuse (themselves)
Like they hold one accountable and the other not.  Like they cover all ends...Yes I did but No I didn't...in the same sentence.  I told you that/I didn't tell you that...
That did happen/that didn't happen.....That was in the past (speaking in present moment) and planning future moments ...of the I did/but didn't...the yes/but No's...and least us forget....the World that can back you up on this ...and corner them with the Yes but No that it won't work......Then we have.....
Pictures, signed sealed and delivered, video tapes.....FACT....(into another stage) of ....I do not remember doing or saying that...So if they don't remember (with all listed) they are not saying it didn't happen BUT not saying it did.  So it's still Yes but No.

 

Hi Deb.   They definitely seem to be two (or more) different people.  Then a lot of craziness we end up dealing with comes with the interaction between these different dissociated aspects of the supposedly single person.   It's like a form of multiple personality disorder.  When things are going well for my mother, she comes across as "nice" and even complimentary toward other people.  But then somethings shifts,  she goes into a different state of consciousness and becomes a raving self absorbed lunatic.   When she comes out of that "mood" she expects others to just disregard the wreckage she has caused.  She wouldn't have had this shift in consciousness if not driven to it by the others in her life.  Every bad thing that has ever happened to her is someone else's fault.  So she justifies herself and her reactions by trashing everybody else.   She blames the outside world for what is really a crazy process in her own mind.   


I've now realized this is a "normal" pattern for her going back as long as I can remember, but in her younger days, the lunatic personality didn't show up as often.   Age seems to have removed her inhibitions, and everybody who can't get away gets to see the disturbing truth about her mental processes.   

We are definitely stepping into madness when we try to figure this stuff out.  I've been trying to sift through a lot of stuff lately that seems to me completely delusional.  My mother has contradicted herself so many times in the last few months  it's become obvious she's gone over the edge, so to speak.