Voicelessness or ???

[Hopalong]

I really sympathize, PR...

I think order and beauty are deep cravings, and you are an artist. It's not just 'neurosis' that makes it such a fixation for you, it's your soul stuff.

Then again, so is loving him.

My daughter's father was such an incredible packrat, and I wanted so much to express my sense of beauty and delight in decor, etc. -- it was a huge incompatibility.

It was, finally, okay. Because we each had our "Room of Our Own" and got to some peaceful agreement about common areas. Never perfection, but cozy and okay.

Outside, there were woods and mountains and a garden and open fields. So those "uncontrolled, undecorated" places helped me soothe myself. Nature's decor trumped mine, any day.

I mean, the man literally ran out of room on the WALLS for his maps and posters and literally covered the CEILING of his study with papers. And never, ever threw out a thing, practically.

Drove me nuts. But the Rooms of Our Own etc. really helped.

I get it.

love,
Hops

[ann3]

"Life and my own choices have been challenging that status quo... I'm asking "why not?" and the inner self is predicting doom, disaster, scandal....and being targeted. I don't have permission (from myself) to be anything other than the "responsible adult"."

Amber,
I hear you girl:  the negative voices in our head that inhibits us.  I bet you, like me, were raised in a sea of negativity.  But, we gotta banish the negative voices or at least stop listening to them.  You have the power to give yourself permission to not be the  "responsible adult".  I know it's hard to chnage our brains, but you are the PhoenixRising!  Rising from the ashes into a new person. 

Why not experiment?  Next time you feel the adult role coming on, just say no, don't play the role & see what happens.  I've been not assuming that adult role for a while, giving up control of outcomes and it's tilted my prism, making me feel more autonomous, making me see I have choices.  And it's interesting to see how others react because when I often assumed the adult, the other person often assumed the child role.  Thus, by often assuming the adult role, the other person often assumed the child role, so I was indirectly forcing the other to act childish:  action & reaction.

[Gaining Strength]

The struggle with hubs over his "stuff" is a symptom. My feelings about it in the present...

You are so excellent about separating these two things.  That is one of your remarkable strengths.

What did you do to deserve parents like you got, Amber?  You didnt do anything.

And yet CB, the price we pay for the results of having had parents like that are extreme and never ending.  We pay a price in our society because we were not formed by loving parents.  And that one gets me as much or more than not having loving parents or siblings.

[sKePTiKal]

What it all comes down to, in the end (after so much talking)... is that most of the time...

FEELING GOOD ALWAYS FEELS BAD.

And if it doesn't, I am programmed to look for ways to make my experience conform to this "RULE". Thank you scary malevolent attachment style...
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I have a decorating theme for the house; I'm calling it post-modern pirate - in other words, I'm avoiding the literal pirate references yet still trying to evoke "swashbuckling"... "fun"... "devil may care - anything goes"... and comfortable, put your feet up, sink into the couch and fall asleep... kind of space with a caribbean colonial feel. I am collecting artsy and stuffed parrots that appear in odd places around the house... away from the nibbly old, scurvy dog who eats all his stuffed toys. This kind of decorating is always a work in progress... it really does have to be "collected" over time - there is just no way to source everything all at once and the bill would make hubby and I slink back into hermit-ville again - feel "bad" in other words about feeling good!

My idea for a solution, to make recycling of papers, magazines, etc stacks of "stuff" really easy - was to find a cabinet with big enough shelf space to hold my recycling paper bags - out of sight behind doors yet within steps of where we sort the mail. Hubs is a indefatiguable (sp?) "hunter-gatherer"... the epitome of a shopper - he sees things that I've completely missed because of sensory overload and then points them out. We hit the biggest of our local furniture stores yesterday... and he found a painted cabinet (in my fav color) that will work... and it even has two drawers... so that he can have one (not 2) "piles" of stuff that he picks up/puts down going in & out... and the pile will be out of sight in the drawer... so that a.) I won't be tempted to move it and b.) he'll know where to look when he can't remember where he put it... and that was HIS idea; brilliant huh? The cabinet will get delivered Monday and goes right in the hall that we use to go in/out of the house... or up/downstairs.

Second stop was another store that we like for fun decorative things... and most of them are functional decorative things, so the "policeman" is appeased... but the policeman got kicked to kingdom-come as soon as I saw a pair of gorgeous mermaid prints... and then, I saw the large one in a different color palette... and two small geometric pieces that will work in a couple different places... the mermaids are like jewelry... very reminiscent of Klimt; and I connected immediately with them, as they're very, very similar to an etching I did for the handmade book of Twiggy's journey (unconsciously created, before I knew what the story was...).

The past hour, hubs & I have scouted places to hang the art... and have discussed what we might do downstairs*... and he's actively thinking about organizing and creating useful work spaces for himself in the garages. This is the "fun" part of "Amber's World"... where I'm not "playing" by myself - I don't want or need "control" - where his ideas and needs have equal weight (he's pretty creative all by himself)... and we fuel each other's energy and ideas. He hasn't been "playing" because he's confusing my asking with a "control-demand"... and I wasn't making myself real clear. (and after all this babbling to get to here... it's obvious I had no clue what I was trying to say, either)

*SIL has come back with a looong list of what she'd like of her mom's stuff; with 4 boys she can use more furniture... but she won't be able to come pick it up for awhile. Hubs has already strategized a solution that is similar but better, than what I was thinking, for storing it till then - but still making space for us to start working down there - making it ours.
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So, yesterday after our hunting-gathering session, we came home to play a videogame we're obsessed with. We're shooting chickens and beating the computer... and while I'm working on becoming a better shot and hubs is racking up big scores... the tears are just running down my face and I'm letting them. That's when I realized what this whole thread is about... the conundrum of "feels good feels bad" - or hurts - or evokes grief - for me. All that time LOST due to the RULE of "if it feels good it must be bad - or scary - or a boundary intrusion or - - - -"

And it's this odd association that I have to reprogram. Now that I know what it is... I can work on it. I've pretty well conquered the guilt reflex I used to have, buying something for myself... but only just recently. But just like I could tell the policeman to go hell, I wanted the mermaids yesterday... I ALSO need to do this in my relationships; starting with Hubs. So that I can enjoy "feeling good"... without having to feel bad at the same time, too. Or making our interactions conform to the "old RULES"... that old pattern of "if you want bioNic mom's attention - it comes at a dangerously high price".

Thus, by often assuming the adult role, the other person often assumed the child role, so I was indirectly forcing the other to act childish:  action & reaction.

Ann - THANK YOU! The above is EXACTLY what has been going on with hubs & me... and yet my inner Twiggy was mewling about needing to be in the child role... wanting someone to "have her back"... and I was able to find that again; one of the very essence-building blocks of his and my relationship.

Wow... it sure FEELS GOOD... to get all THAT sorted out!  ;D

[sKePTiKal]

So, we developed a dance where I KNEW he wouldnt follow through, and he KNEW that I had a back up plan for when he didnt.  I was hyper adult.

CB - it was Ann who pointed me in this direction. I think this is a topic that deserves a thread unto itself. Lots to explore about this, still. Even though hubs & I are at a happy medium place - now; it really doesn't take much... something as simple as not paying attention even... before we'll fall back into the same old, same old again.

The a-ha won't last until... something else happens. I don't know what. Yet.

I didn't know how to translate playing into marriage, either. When we played all the time - his preference I thought - my "policeman" drove me nuts about the looming disasters to come unless I stepped into the adult role. Well, I did that way too well because of the old programming... and went to the other extreme... sigh! And of course, then there was "no time to play"... until I decided I wanted to turn one room in the old house, into "my" space - and he got creatively engaged in the process. I'm sure it was a relief for him to have something specific and concrete to do - to help. That was when we started to "play together". It's still a new phase for us... we're definitely both still learning.

I never had a relationship where I could have carte blanche in the house as far as decorating goes. The N-ex's always dictated, or denied, or "guided".... toward their idea, of course. Hubs has been as good as his word: do whatever you want to do. It's been re-vivifying to see some of my visions - and some of his - actually work out.

[ann3]

Hey Amber,

You really are the Phoenix Rising
Glad it helped.  This adult role vs. child role is from Dr. Eric Berne's Transactional Analysis:

http://changingminds.org/explanations/behaviors/ta.htm
"Transactional Analysis (or TA as it is often called) is a model of people and relationships that was developed during the 1960s by Dr. Eric Berne. It is based on two notions, first that we have three parts or 'ego-states' to our 'personality, and secondly that these converse with one another in 'transactions' (hence the name).

Parent, Adult and Child
We each have internal models of parents, children and also adults, and we play these roles with one another in our relationships. We even do it with ourselves, in our internal conversations."

If this kinda rings a bell, may I suggest you read Dr. Berne's book called "Games People Play: The Basic Handbook of Transactional Analysis"?  It's available at amazon & I really enjoyed it because he shows that so many interactions we have are actually "games" which we repeat over & over.

Just found this video of TA & I like the way TA is illustrated, but suggest you also check out Berne's book.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nKNyFSLJy6o&feature=channel
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YOqJ4sc9TAc&feature=channel
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=58F2qYyAzME&feature=channel

[sKePTiKal]

LOL!!

Ann - that really takes me back... I read "Games People Play" while a sophomore in HS. I was seriously dating a "preacher's son" and the preacher was big fan of TA and he recommended it to me - the son is still one of the most flagrant and abusive Ns any of us have ever met (among that circle of HS friends). This was back in the mid-70s... at the other end of Twiggy's decade.

Obviously, I didn't understand a word of it back then. But then... I was also still being gaslighted, too. I had to adhere to the "party line" of how my FOO functioned... Just goes to show, that people can't hear or understand... until they're ready to deal with it. Pavlov made sense then... I could directly relate to his theory; but not Berne.

I'm not real sure that I'd agree with more than some specifics of that "philosophy", even now. What seems to work for me as a thesis of "how people are" and why they do things as they do (including me)... is that we are all multiple people - inner, outer - conscious and unconsious - and that we develop specific personalities for each of our roles. I have struggled with and continue to struggle with my parent role, for instance. Unconsciously, I mimic my bioNic mom... and sometimes, even when I'm trying to consciously choose to be something else - it still bubbles up and spills out. So, I'm still looking for a way to "kill the evil witch" that lives in the grooves of my brain and memory... I really don't like it (or myself) when I turn into that evil witch... just because I wasn't paying enough attention to my "Self"... my needs, wants, and feelings.

And there are yet many other ways, that I unconsciously step into the "parent" role, needlessly. And even inappropriately - like in circumstances that call for something completely different. Another way for me think about that is with boundaries... is it really my job to step across that boundary assuming the role - and power and privilege - of a parent? Fortunately, I do this a lot less than in the past... but it hasn't been completely banished or dismantled yet.

What's useful to me from TA is simply the concept of roles... and how the roles we adopt reflect aspects of our inner Selves. There are more, I think, than just parent - adult - child that one can see being played out, over & over in groups of people. Guest probably can help identify some of these, with all her people watching. I can think of some... and they function as self-defining or limiting personality "masks"... sometimes. Sometimes the "roles" and the way they're acted out are keys to decoding the inner person, too. On this point, I'd agree with Berne.

[sKePTiKal]

Ha! and I'll audition for "know it all"... even tho' many times I'm amazingly happy to find out just how WRONG I was...

how about if Harpo Marx was the "know it all"? I could be that kind...

honk-honk!

[sKePTiKal]

uh.... I guess I'm gonna have to say, No - I don't know what you mean Guest. I'm trying to "get it"... but it's not coming through my own "ground clutter", I guess you'd say.

Been there done - the outsider, alien, misfit role and let it run wild while I was in art school. There is some superficial freedom in it... but from today's perspective it wasn't at all what I was longing for, really. That character was just "pretend" and "dress up" for me (and a refuge or rationalization of why I was so "different")... but out of it, I came to understand that creativity exists - coexists - even with the Ozzie & Harriet lifestyle - the boho, misunderstood, antihero, lone wolf character isn't a prerequisite for "really good art". In some ways, I think that choice actually only perpetuated a lot of the old FOO crap... helped sustain an internal conflict longer than it was worth.

As much as I worry about how I'm perceived by others - and continue to have this tendency to keep people at arms length... I've found that I really do enjoy being with people, in various combinations - one on one is still my preferred interaction style - but I am finding my way to enjoying larger social gatherings... and relaxing about it more. If I can remind myself to stop imposing my own expectations, my own script on the "future" while I'm making preparations to host... it's way easier for me. I don't need to have expectations about who I might connect with in these encounters, either! I know enough to run the other way - discreetly - when my radar goes off or I see red flags in how someone acts - and there are plenty of other people around to engage.

Sense of humor is like a canary in a coal mine, I think. And I see it this way in one of my D's, too (she's aware of it too). When we lose our ability to laugh - at ourselves, or anything - we're taking it all too seriously and that's an obstacle to complete understanding. It's in this vein, that I really almost enjoy being "wrong"... it's OK to be wrong. I have learned a whole lot of stuff - useful things - by being wrong about it first and then questioning my premises, etc. I get what you're saying about life being too short, to be wrong about the important stuff... but I've got "issues" still, about life being long enough... and the transience of "being right" which is dependent upon time and circumstances. What was a "right" definition of me in 1969... no longer applies and may be totally 180 opposite of what exists as me today. I find that kind of thinking in a lot of places... we always want to compare now with the past - and this gets people in trouble because the variables of then and now - can often be very different.

There, I think it just dropped "out of my mouth"... that's the crux of what felt wrong and inspired this thread. Past and present... and letting "old stuff" from the past be applied in the present... as if what was once true - always is. I keep forgetting that I'm pretty comfortable in a zen experiential mode... I adapt very quickly to changing circumstances and I'm one of the kinds of people that thrive on change, variety, and a certain amount of pressure. As long as I can "touch base" with a basic status quo, that is. And if that status quo seems to be growing too solid, entrenched, monotonous... it functions as a low-level emotional restlessness, irritant, prison-like... which I experience as a "problem".

Maybe. Theories are only as good as their proofs.

[sKePTiKal]

Oh.... OK... I think I sort of get what you're saying now...

I wonder... why it is, so many are "losing it"? It seems like there is some nefarious conspiracy generating fear, suspicion & paranoia, negativity, lack of even personal security - beyond a realistic assessment of the real dangers out there. Like something's being added to the water... as we used to say. A mass hysteria kind of phenomenon. That doesn't use statistics or understand probability...

For all the talk of change, human nature remains the same... bureaucracies are still first & foremost concerned with their own survival (it's inherent in the nature of it's existence) - who doesn't know that?... corporations need to make a profit or they're not in business very long - why is that some shocking scandal?? or evil unto mankind??... people can be amazingly awful to each other... and amazingly kind, too.

Plus ca change, plus sa meme chose...

I get excited when I think I'm seeing something "new"... initially... and most of the time, I realize later it's just a re-design of something that's been around for awhile or something I just didn't know about before. There've been a few things that didn't dim for me... that just might be "new" and "good news"... and there's usually a "why didn't people think of that before?" moment that goes with it, too. But then - I find I keep seeking out young, creative folks who are making their attempt at solving the age-old riddles of life... not to teach them anything... but to watch for things I can learn from them.

Don't tell my kids!!!!      

Yeah, I know some things about life, politics, society still suck - life still ain't fair, either - but it's really not any worse than it's been in other decades, eras, milleniums, either. Being "realistic" doesn't always mean being more negative, than positive... I don't think it's "realistic" to not take positives into consideration. But I didn't always think this way... it just makes me feel better so I do, now. Self-soothing, I guess.

[Hopalong]

Sorry your neighborhood's in turmoil, Guest.
Did I understand right that you're moving?

I like the sound of places to swim, people to meet/greet...

And your common sense and perspective about being mindful that other people are going through other things, to which you're sometimes a witness...sounded really wise to me.

Hope moving is positive for you and goes smoothly,

Hops

[sKePTiKal]

Moving is a mixed blessing...

while there is ample opportunity to live, be, "different"... if you don't make that effort, all of a sudden you'll notice the new place looks just like the old one... it's some special, universal force, I think - like entropy.

Another mystery for me - is what IS that kind of effort? What does it consist of, feel like, how do I nurture it? And really - is it worth it?