awful phone conversation

[Ales2]

What do you do when the only other person on the planet (my brother) who grew up with the same N mother refuses to acknowledge my feelings on the subject? His take is just "get over it" and move on. He also has no interest in understanding "why" but for me, that crucial because I cant resolve something that I don't understand the unhealthy origins.

Also, I tried years back to have a relationship with him and I decided that I would call him everyweek (Sunday nites) but discovered that most of my calls went unreturned and when I did get him on the phone, he never really wanted to or had time to talk.  Unreturned calls and erratic phone tag went on for 6 months. When I told him last night how hurt and disrespected I felt, he was oblivious, but apologized. That wasn't enough for me, because he was like "Oh well, sorry" and it wasn't just once, it was many, many times over six months. I wondered all that time what I had done to deserve this.

Every time I get off the phone with him, I feel physically ill for days (after lunch i took painkiller and went to bed because i could not handle the pain).

Now he wants to talk every week and I'm not sure its good for me - I am afraid of having my feelings hurt or having to defend myself or my actions. I'm also not sure I can trust him. 

Please help me with this...

[Hopalong]

I'm sorry, Ales...I think the answer is that you have to release him from being your validation or your healer.

I think you can't pressure him about it any more... Because you want him to be your brother.

Please, think about this. Right now, in this particular decade of your life...you feel driven toward extracting your brother's understanding. (I don't blame you! At all! I know how overwhelming that need can feel.)

What I'm saying is, your brother sounds like a good guy who is willing to be in your life, still. He has not thrown you away or rejected you or said he wants no sibling...he's trying, in his own way.

But he is a guy with his own injuries and limitations, which he has to figure out in his own way and in his own language and in his own time. You really, really cannot "impose the truth" on him. I write this because my fear is, if you keep trying, you will eventually become toxic for him.

He won't be "right" (that's not what I'm getting at) -- but he may not be constructed in such a way that he can handle your emotions.

So, back to your enormous and legitimate and understandable need for validation about what it has been like to have an Nparent. It is unfortunate you can't have the simplicity of that bond, that healing comprehension, with the person who experienced his own (separate) childhood in the same home...but the message, loud and clear, is that this is not the healing source for you.

Therapy, support, healthful group work, on and on, art, soulful discovery, developing your own strength and joys -- other friends, the companionship of women, the natural world, a passion for a cause, new friends of any ilk --- these ARE your healing sources.

You could badger and implore your brother for understanding so often and so intensely that he recoils, in self-protection, because for his own legitimate reasons, your needs are overwhelming him.

So my advice is, stop it. Stop overwhelming him.

Family members DO lose each other, when they cannot recognize boundaries. (Which is exactly the damage Ns do to us...they leave us not able to stop. We can learn it but we can have so many damaged relationships before we do.)

Because if there is anything beautiful in this world that would be lovely -- it would be to have a kind brother. Even if you only talk to him once a month, or see him once a year. To let him be only that, instead of who you wish he would be.

I truly believe that at 50, 60, 70 -- you would be so glad you eased up on him now, began to cherish and celebrate his simple existence. Just as whoever he is.

You have a brother. A decent person.

What a miracle.

love,
Hops

[Ales2]

Thanks tt and Hops.

First, he isnt much of a brother. He was never the golden child,. supposedly I was.  I barely see him or his family. We dont spend holidays together of participate in each others lives at all. I dont even know where he lives and he's probably been to my place only once in the last six years.  I was not in either of his weddings. What bothers me most is that 13 years ago he found out that our mother was an N/BPD because he discovered it by therapy in his first divorce, but NEVER bothered to tell me. Instead he watched me suffer through family problems, work problems and relationship problems. So, just two years ago is when I find out and he tells me hes known for years. I think he is an incredible JERK for not having said anything to my before, while watching me suffer.

Sure, I will ease up on him. I already called him and told him that we really dont need to talk, I dont think it would productive.  I'm in the middle of my life completely unraveling and really dont have time for it anyway.

[Twoapenny]

Hi Ales,

One thing I've found over the last ten years or so is that sometimes you have to just focus on yourself and leave others to it.  We can't always get the answers we need or want, and I think one of the hardest things of the whole process is accepting that there might always be some loose ends that never get tied up or resolved.

There could be many reasons that your brother didn't tell you what his T had told him.  I've never told anyone in my family that I think my mum has NPD, primarily because I don't think it's right for anyone other than a psychiatrist who has spent a lot of time with that particular person to diagnose somebody.  To be honest I don't think it's really approriate for a therapist to diagnose a person they haven't met (I'm assuming your mum wasn't in therapy at the same time as your brother and seeing the same therapist?).  So if she hasn't been formally diagnosed (sorry, I don't know if that's the case or not), your brother may have thought the T wasn't right, he may have thought you might not want to know or might be upset by it, he might just not have been ready or willing to talk about it, or been too busy dealing with his own problems at the time to want to bring up more problems to deal with.  What I'm trying to say is that it's really difficult for anyone to know how someone else's mind is working or why they do (or don't do!) certain things.  That's when I think it becomes more about working on yourself - coming to terms in your own time with how you feel about the situation and working through it.  There might be a time much further down the line when you find you can talk to your brother about the situation, but I think you're right to give yourself some space to deal with how you feel.  Sometimes it's better to do this without interruptions or other people's opinions, it gives you a chance to figure out what you, personally, really feel.  But it's really, really hard.

(((((((((((((((((((((((((((((Ales)))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))

[sKePTiKal]

Hops touched on something that I can expand on. I also have a brother who lived through trauma with me and in our case, he was the golden child - again, it was thrust on him - and we rarely discuss the past or my mom, who lives with him, nor how each of us were affected. My T insisted I not go down that road with my brother... because of what Hops' said:

BOUNDARIES

Siblings who grow up in dysfunctional families frequently don't know a boundary if they walk straight into it. Especially, often, with each other... and the reason is, that sibs usually become a separate survival unit (dysfunctional as well) within the larger dysfunctional FOO. With no boundaries... sibs learn to parent each other - inappropriately, usually. There are long held resentments. There are unrealistic expectations of what kind of relationship is healthy... and then there are the individual needs. As kids, you do anything and everything to survive and you don't give a rat's about what is healthy or not.

I started to tell you some "war stories" about the last two years of my struggle with running a business with my bro. But - it's just venting and it's beside the point. Generally, it helps the most to remember that both you and your brother have grown a LOT since the "old days"... and also important is the fact that each of you experienced the same events DIFFERENTLY.

The old brother you remember might be gone - or there might still be glimmers of him that still exist in today's brother. But there will be a lot of new stuff - including "stuff" about him that he might not show or share with you. It helps if you think of that as a boundary and can allow him that space. As far as processing the past together - in an ideal world that would be a fabulous way to heal... but because you both are different people, you both were hurt differently - different things are of major importance to each of you - and you both have different coping skills and methods that maybe need re-programming. Some people, I think, don't heal... and instead have found a way to "carry on" despite the old hurts. I tried it - didn't work for me - yet some of that approach still lingers.

I've decided my brother is one of those who haven't healed, even tho I accept I could be completely wrong. I don't know who he is - even though I totally recognize some of his dysfunctional characteristics from way back when... but even those have evolved and changed over the years. We don't have any choice, due to the business, to NOT have some sort of relationship and the past two years have been a trial and error approach and somehow I think there is still a chance that we might have some kind of personal relationship - IF we can both respect certain boundaries and not make any assumptions based on old data about each other. The expectation of a level of intimacy - and want or need for that - is bound to be different between brother and sister. Instead, what I've found is working, is to approach my relationship with my brother, as I would any other business associate - someone I "know", but also someone that I maintain more distant and more firm boundaries with. I can't rely on anything less than the most specific and clear communication skills - no "private" language, you know? Like once existed?

And even with all this... the relationship is touch and go. I am extremely careful of myself and my own feelings and on guard for his boundary violations. At the same time, I am still attempting to create a common ground between us - a safe place where we can both co-exist and work together - and just like any other "working" relationship it has good days and bad days. That said - emotionally I sense that both he and I need this connection with each other... and I think there's some level of need between you and your brother, Ales...

you said your life is unravelling right now. That's a really bad place to be all alone. But maybe hearing some of your story triggers your brother - and what he went through, too. So instead of just going NC, why not just space out your phone calls to him? That gives you the space to deal with things... and maybe once a month or so, you can touch base with him instead of every week? I hear you about anger that he didn't share with you, as he worked through his own problems... but hon, your trials and tribulations are unique to you just as his are unique to him. Maybe LATER... a time and place will arrive when you two can compare notes... so you don't want to run away or drive him away... you both may find you need a relationship with each other based on who you become when you've healed - instead of who you were in the "bad old days".

There have been days when I've wanted to throw things or beat the crap out of my brother, he's exasperated me to that level. He's lobbed nuclear rage bombs at me - unfairly - too. Rather than keep score, I am willing to let those go... stay in the present... and keep trying to find that common safe space between us. I've endured much worse - and there are both business and personal reasons why I'm persisting, despite the dangers to my own peace of mind.

If it's important to you - don't give up - figure out what's going wrong and try something different.

(((((((((Ales)))))))))

[SilverLining]

Hi Ales.  I understand where you are at.   Sibling issues  are something I  have been grappling with a lot lately.  I was thinking about starting a thread with a title along the line of:  What do you do when it becomes obvious your whole FOO is crazy?     I had hoped I could have rational adult conversation with my brother about FOO issues.    But in recent months it's become obvious he can't deal with the stuff.  He seems to take a regressive  stance, and then turns hostile towards me for even trying to figure out the situation.  I don't think he has progressed to a place where he can even consider the issues.  He is a 48 year old who still reads comic books and plays "dungeons and dragons" type board games.   This is escapist behavior (IMO) which started to develop when he was in his teens, and he never grew out of it.   At the same time, he does have a lot of positive qualities and is trying to deal with difficult situations the best he can, with the tools he has available.  His formal education is PHD level, but I suspect he inherited his "emotional intelligence" from my father.     

The advice Hops and everybody else has given seems very good (and it's helpful to me as well).  We can't impose our needs or understandings on others who are not in a position to respond.  Maybe a conversation will develop later, or maybe it won't.   So it becomes a matter of managing our own expectations. 

[Ales2]

Somwhow this isnt coming across right. its all too much for me to explain. sorry to start all this trouble on the board. i think maybe this will be my last posting.

[teartracks]

(((((((((((Ales)))))))))))

I'm so sorry for the frustration and suffering you're experiencing. 

tt

[nolongeraslave]

Hi Ales,

Sorry about the situation, but maybe he's just not ready to accept the truth or acknowledge how it has made you feel (even though it sucks being invalidated).  Everybody as at a different stage when it comes to healing from a N mother. It could be that his way is not thinking about it and "moving on."  When some people say they moved on or are "over it", I think it means they've just blocked it out and aren't ready to address it.   Your brother may be a nice person, but if he's not respecting your attempts to call him (like not returning your calls)...You might as well take care of yourself and your feelings.

I think my brother knows a lot, but he chooses to "keep the peace".  When I told my brother my mom has NPD in front of both of them, he went along with my mom saying that I was the crazy one.  From his body language, I could tell that he knows something is off with my mom.

I think most of us have learned that our families are just not the right source of support. 

[Hopalong]

Ales, I know you feel alternately dismissed and demanded of...by him.

I hear that it's terrifyingly painful and disturbing and not clear at all.

(I'm not trying to "saint" him...sounds like he has alternately hurt and neglected and then overwhelmed you, with his ways of coping.)

I'm sorry it's so hard.

I hope you won't go away. Sometimes here I assume I understand more than I do. I hope I didn't make it worse.

xo
Hops

[sKePTiKal]

Ales hon... did we not hear you correctly? You caused no trouble here... really!

Gotta admit, sometimes I connect to a fraction of what someone is saying and then go off on a tangent of my own.

Wanna give it another go?

[lighter]

Ales.... I think what makes us sick is having to deny, in any small way, the reality of our abuse.

That your brother should understand.....

should be able to validate your experience.....

seems obviouse, and good and right, to you.

His childhood experience, however, had to be different than yours.

His way of dealing with it, his own, and not the way you need to deal.

As frustrating and sick making as it is not to find validation in your brother.....

it may not be something he can give you.

Not bc he's unwilling to, but bc he's unable to, perhaps.

I understand feeling sick when asked to deny your reality.

I just don't know how to stop feeling that way.

Lighter

[Ales2]

Update:

Typical with my brother. He chooses a date and time to speak and when the time comes, I wait a few minutes then call him. He doesn't answer, so I leave voce mail. Next day, he calls to tell me he was not feeling well and went to bed a full hour before our appointed time, but he never thinks to call and cancel. So I return his call and give him another time. He tries me, I cant answer but I call back not once but twice in a couple of hours. He then never returns that call.

Okay, so the difficult conversation I was going to have with him is on hold indefinitely. Ugh. I go through these phone games every time. He doesn't value my time or the relationship! That will be the first order of business next time and if he doesn't like it, we can get off the phone!

[sKePTiKal]

I wish you luck!

My brother plays the same phone games - as far as I'm concerned, it's a passive-aggressive technique for avoiding having the conversation. And not just with me - with important people, also. Forget email conversations - the only time he can "get his email to work" is when he wants to send flaming email grenades.

After a couple years of dealing with this, I've come to suspect that this might be his way of trying to control the madness that surrounded us growing up. He simply DOESN'T engage or focus his attention on things until he's damn good and ready - and yes, one can wait YEARS for this to happen; he'll say by then that he forgot all about it.... and then blame stress and being over-busy. Part of this is actually TRUE. I remember doing the over-busy thing myself. He doesn't yet realize that he can control that; he has a choice. But I have to let him figure this out for himself - what I've learned just doesn't count or matter to him.

And it's not personal at all - he's like this with everyone. He's emotionally frozen at age 10; but his real age is 52. As a result of the trauma we experienced together, he did not speak for maybe 6 months. I don't know if he'll ever figure it all out. That's sad, but there is literally nothing I can do about it. Maybe he's working on it, too. I don't know... and so I'm left with expecting him to act in a normal fashion and being prepared to protect myself, if he doesn't. He's not totally predictable... and since he doesn't communicate well or often... it's a minefield of eggshells. It takes an awful lot of energy on my part just to deal with him, most of the time.

[Hopalong]

If he knows you're likely to be showing intense frustration with him, or anger, then...ditto, he's probably avoiding.

xo

Hops