:?: female gender narcissism :?:

[bunny]

-the problem about asking him clarification, is that if I asked him a question before getting to the couch he would say wait, only during the analytic session, and during the session, he would never talk (even if I ask a question) because this is the way a psychoanalysis is conducted: the patient talks by him/herself basically (!). I think this is why psychoanalytic cures are sometimes so long and/or so difficult.

He put you in an impossible bind. He can tell you any confusing thing he wants and he never has to explain it. This leaves you the option of buying books to find out - of coming here to find out - and we don't know what he means. He won't tell you himself. Just leaves you with his traumatic pronouncements. He may be brilliant and a genius but I think he may be a narcissist!

He said at the beginning that his methodology was Lacanian (famous in France, most of psychanalysts are Lacanians), and it has strict rules that I should accept if I wanted to do the analysis with him.

Confirmed - he's a narcissist.  

I think something you might like is Jungian theory.

bunny

[Anonymous]

Hey Bunny, I think I am convinced now (finally    !!)...
At first I thought it was the "methodology" thing, but now I see that I was put in an impossible situation... In psychoanalysis, the patient talks but the analyst EMPATHETICALLY listens (I did not find this listening quality or only at the beginning). Plus, he should have said (using the analytic jargon terms), something like : "you have trouble with feminine identification" (implying "look at your bad maternal introjects"), and "you also have narcisstic traits" (due to improper maternal nurture), and not (I remember he had sort of a triumphant tone) : "you are a narcissstic woman"... Because a therapist should only describe traits/characteristics/behavior of a patient and not say "you ARE this or that". I thought my feelings were not based on reality but only my projections of my N parents onto him.
i happened to "choose" him as analyst (I had "tried" two other ones before him) b/c during the first session, I thought: wow, he really talks like K (one of my xbf, who I understood later was a real true N but I never made the connection!).
About my last xbf: he also had the same way of talking as K, I was so impressed. Then I saw quickly how N he was, and I started setting strong boudaries. End of the story, after the breakup, I "bumped" into him in a street: in fact I did not recognize him at first, I saw a man whose face looked familiar and MADE ME THINK OF MY ANALYST (he physically looks like him, 20 years younger   ). Amazing, no?
Also, I agree that "phallic woman" is not a real therapy term, I remember at the bookstore when I said it to the saleswoman, she was embarrassed b/c she had no books dealing with this. All she could give to me were books about mother/daughter relationships (and not about N...)
I thought I had become good at spottinng abusers and narcissists... Well...I guess I still need to learn, it's only the beginning  
Thanks a lot for your patience, Bunny, to show me that I was on the wrong tracks
(Ex) Elephant Woman
Time to find a new nickname, what about EyesWideOpen?

[Anonymous]

Hi again,

I think something you might like is Jungian theory.
You are right   I just took the Meyers Briggs personality test, and I agreed w/ every word of the description (I am ENTP). Next week I will get the results of the graphology analysis, I am excited about the results : will it show the writing of a huge/bad/castrating phalllic woman? LOL ).
For now I will get some (internet) reading about the Jungian theory...  
(Ex) Elephant Woman

[meadow]

I have a few questions for you elephant woman or anyone else who has been posting on this thread.  I was in an abusive relationship. Separated since the end of January.  I have 3 children. Two boys, 16 and 13 and a little girl 8 years old.  When she goes for the weekend to her dad's I have just found out that she sleeps with him in his bed.  At this time I don't believe there is anything physical going on.  It seems that it is an emotional neediness on his part.  He brings her a single stem rose about once a week.  Before we separated and even more so now she doesn't like to wear girl panties.  She want to wear boys boxers and she never wears dresses.  She dresses very masculine and won't wear anything with lace, pink/purple or feminine.  She has long hair and won't let me do anything with her hair other than braids.  Even her runners are from the boys section.  How much is this personality and how much might this be red flags concerning something else?  I try to not make a big thing about it because there is so much other negative stuff going on and I emotionally exhausted from all the poisoning my ex is doing with the kids in terms of trying to get them to turn against me.  I am being blamed for ending this relationship.  
Meadow

[phoenix]

Hi Phoenix, thank you for telling how you feel about your feminity, it is never easy ot talk about it openly...

It didn't bother me at all to talk about. It is so far behind me now. I look at my parents with reproach that I had to ever feel all those confused feelings.

-So, as you said, I should nurture my feminine side.

Yes I did that for myself, but also my masculine side. The feminine was alway fully there, I just didn't feel good about the side that was cerebral and strong minded. The two couldn't coexist. So I felt like something "other". I just didn't have any good role models. Now it seems like folly.

Phoenix

[phoenix]

Meadow, I don't know if how she dresses means a thing. From what I see around me with a lot of girls today, it seems normal. But your husband sharing his bed, and the rose- that bothers me. I would be very alarmed. Even if nothing overt was happening. If it is even something emotionally needy on his part- that is inappropriate. The rose thing- maybe I am off on that. I can't imagine my dad having done that, so it would seem wierd to me.

Just my 2 cents worth.

Phoenix.

[meadow]

I agree Phoenix......in my gut it feels like emotional incest is taking place.
Hard to prove or have anyone do anything about it.  I will let her counselor know, but recently her dad has her so poisoned against counselors I don't know if she will go anymore.  This has been very difficult.  The parent alienation syndrome is happening big time.


Meadow

[Portia]

Meadow, does your ex have more than one bed at his place or not?

If he does, there is absolutely no good or innocent reason for your daughter to share his bed.

If this was my daughter, I would stop the overnight stays right now. The rose-giving is also unacceptable in western culture. It signifies romantic love and sex, not non-sexual love.

If your ex has poisoned her against counsellors, isn’t it your responsibility to un-poison her?

How does she feel about sleeping with him in his bed? How does she feel about the visits overall?

I’m shocked by your description. Maybe there’s more to explain, more information? I just react to a child at risk as I see it. From what you have said, that’s what I see.

Portia

[Anonymous]

Hi Meadow:

Your husband abused you.

Do men usually sleep with their daughters because they are emotionally needy?

Are your instincts are telling you something and that's why you have reached out here?

Tell your lawyer.

[Anonymous]

When she goes for the weekend to her dad's I have just found out that she sleeps with him in his bed.  At this time I don't believe there is anything physical going on.  It seems that it is an emotional neediness on his part.

It is abusive for him to exploit his 8-year-old daughter to assuage his emotional neediness. Plus -- I think there is something physical going on. The rose is not a good sign.

She dresses very masculine and won't wear anything with lace, pink/purple or feminine.  She has long hair and won't let me do anything with her hair other than braids.  Even her runners are from the boys section.

I think she wants to be a boy like her brothers so she doesn't have to sleep with Daddy.

Please tell your attorney about this today. If your attorney sucks, call Child Protective Services.

bunny

[Anonymous]

Hi Meadow,
Like all posters above I was shocked about your x husband behavior.
About the emotional incestual conduct of her father
I totally validate your feelings: sleeping in the same bed IS emotional incest, whether there is one or two beds available I do not care!!! You should not feel guilty about it but responsible to do something now about it.
[last year, after a very difficult break-up I came to my Mom's appartment, which was getting repainted, so only one room and one bed was available. I had to sleep in the same bed as hers and it felt awful (I was 28 ). Also my my older sis (now 31) when she stayed there (she does not live in Paris but in the South of France), she would sleep in same bad as Mom's w/o problem!!! ]
[4 months ago, during my "self analysis" (pompous name, I know), I was googling on the net not knowing what I was after. I found sites/boards about incest. When I read them, I cried so hard I thought I would throw up/big migraines/etc.. The body remembers . What I don’ t know.]
So what you SHOULD do (sorry if I sound a bit directive, but the more you wait, the more it will be difficult for all of you to deal with it ):
1) Get informed about abuse, boundaries and emotional abuse through web sites/boards. Here are a few books about abuse / boundaries that I have bought (you can buy them second hand, it’s very unexpensive). They are aimed at adults recovering from abuse, but it will help you understand the mechanics.
Boundaries Where You End and I Begin
Where to Draw the Line: How to Set Healthy Boundaries Every Day
Toxic Parents: Overcoming Their Hurtful Legacy and Reclaiming Your Life
Controlling People: How to Recognize, Understand and Deal with People Who Try to Control You  
The Secret of Overcoming Verbal Abuse: Getting Off the Emotional Roller Coaster and Regaining Control of Your Life
2) Get informed through incest abuse web sites, boards to understand the feelings of incest survivors. Ask about them about incest survivors books to buy, people on these boards will know better than me.
Here are a few links. Even though when there is no actual incest, emotional incest effects can be as bad as physical ones (remember the difference b/w physical and emotional abuse? there is NO difference in terms of impact upon the victim).Here are a few links: http://incestabuse.about.com/od/childabuse/
http://www.siawso.org/effects.html
http://www.niu.edu/women/URW/resources/survivors.shtml
http://www.rainn.org/facts.html
http://incestabuse.miningco.com/cs/a.htm
Again stay strong and do not let yourself devastated by the impacts on children of you can read/learn.
3) Through these boards/web sites, ask for a therapist specialized in children and incest issues. Be very careful about the therapist, if the “job” is not done correctly, it may worsen the case. Do not hesitate to change therapist if you see your daughter is not responding appropriately to the cure. The therapist should also help you by telling you how to behave towards your daughter, how your x husband should behave, and how she can find her natural place as the daughter of two parents and as the sister of two older brothers.
4) Take legal action concerning your husband but be very careful: emotional abuse is difficult to prove, and she should in no way feel guilty about it. Be very careful about the reaction of her father towards her if he is faced with the truth (he may try to badmouth her Mom, etc..).
5) Do not feel guilt about what is hapening. It is hard stuff, but it is not your fault, if you take proper action now, she will certainly recover. Just be really careful about her reactions. And also take care about your sons, they may be indirectly impacted by the incestual atmosphere.
About her problem with gender identification
As bunny said (brilliantly, sorry I pay you another compliment, bunny!!), she probably identifies with her brothers so that she would not have to sleep in her daddy’s bed.
1.She may have not accepted (yet?) being a girl b/c she wants to be like her two older brothers. It is not a disaster as “ideally” the Oedipus complex is resolved at the latest around 12; They may act (unconsciously) as “dad(s)” and unconsciously replace the image of the emotionally absent father. It is important that you do not consider them (unconscioulsy again) as the fatherly figure(s) in the household. She definitely needs an adult man around her (maybe an uncle, a grandfather, ideally someone that you share your life with, but I do not think this may be an obligation) who recognizes her feminity and encourages it in a non sexual way so that her Oedipus could resolve gently.
All this may take months or years, as the process should be slow and smooth.
2.She should also have opportunities to identify with as many feminine figures as possible. It is a good thing that she does not reject you as her mother, even though mother rejection is a “normal” (only if temporary!!!!) behavior in the Oedipus phase. Maybe, (just my 2 cent), try to think about additional feminine figures (besides you) in the family or close to your family (a cousin, an aunt, a grandmother...) so that she may have additional feminine identification sources..
3; In the same manner (maybe later), try to help her get close to feminine peers so that she can relate with them.
This is what I would intuitively do in your situation. But you would be better counselled by a child therapist. The masculinity behavior is not so shocking (in my mind) at her age, lots of healthy little girls act more or less like this for a while. But she may get stuck in this behavior for too long in the future as her triangulation (Oedipus resolution) may not be solved due to an emotionnally absent/abusive father.
Even if you are a very good Mom to her, it may (unfortunately) not be enough for her especially at this stage. All children need feminine reference(s) and masculine reference(s) that validate and encourage their gender identification, so that they can to get out at a reasonable age of this Oedipus thing.
PS I found out that it is rarely the case!! (at least for generations in my dysfunctional family).
Sorry for this so long post, I hope I am not shocking in my being “direct”, but I tried to be as sincere as possible. Again, do not let guilt let overwhelm you or her or anybody (besides the father!) in your family. I insist on this b/c guilt was/is sthg I myself struggle daily with.
It’s a great thing that you posted your story before it is too late...
PPS : about the father role, Aldo Naouri’s books are excellent; but do not talk about them to your ex husband, as lots of divorced men (at least in France) have tried to twist his ideas into antifeminists/anti-mom ideas (!).
(Ex) Elephant Woman

[elephant woman]

Hi again Meadow,
I am so sorry, I did not read your other posts before I wrote the above post and I did not get the whole picture about your ex-husband using your children against you. I had not seen his abusive behavior, I under-estimated his acting.
But I still think that besides his covert effective abuse, your children may “believe” their father rather than you b/c again, they may feel the need to hear a “masculine voice” (and what a voice that is.  ..). So  if some male person in your family or close to you could (at least temporarily, but regularly) be now an additional (and later a replacing, hopefully) masculine figure who says good things / reestablish the truth about you as their mother, that would help “modify the balance” in your favor.
I am sure it is difficult now in your situation, but I think you may still try to get as much support as possible. Even if he has tried to turn your parents for example against you, try to demonstrate that he is wrong and abusive. You need as many allies as possible. Do not give up winning back the support you used to have.
His abuse is covert abuse (not overt), here is another book (one more. ) about it  In Sheep's Clothing: Understanding and Dealing With Manipulative People.
So maybe the priority for you now is to get back as many allies as possible, by learning what he told them about you and challenging it.
You know I think that the most abusive people are also those who are the biggest cowards... When he sees that you are fully supported by the  people you have won back, he will diminish the bad mouthing thing. When he sees that another masculine figure challenges his omnipotence over your children, he should calm down. Also, it may take a lot of years for your children to see the truth, maybe they will only know it when they are finacially independent from him.
As far as I am concerned, the 1st time I heard good things about my father and his family was when I was 18: it was my 1st time in LA (away from family!), and I was linving for a month at this old lady’s who was my Polish grandmother’s best friend. This person told me good things about my father, I could also feel her goodness, her intelligence and her sincerety (contray to my mother and her family). She changed my life. She was the 1st feminine role model I could safely identify with. She reconciled me with my Dad, I could love my grandma w/o afterthoughts. I became proud of my Polish origins.
This summer when I was in Poland, lots of memories of my Polish grandparents came back to my mind. And also the stern voice of my Mother, criticizing everything that is Polish. A few days ago, when I told this to my Dad he was shocked b/c he never knew about the badmouthing. A few hours after I got a message from my Mom (1st time she called in 1 month), asking “how I was doing” (!). You know what.? I did not call back and I laughed b/c I know the truth.
So back to you and your children, maybe thir knowing of the truth cannot happen today b/c the abuse and the situation is too hard for now, but remember that there may be “an old lady” or “an old gentleman” waiting to say the truth one day to your children.
Maybe you could help make it happen indirectly. Nothing is lost forever. Never give up.
(Ex) Elephant Woman

[ResilientLady]

Hi, I just wanted to say that Elephant Woman has just turned into ResilientLady!!!    
(I can't delete the Elephant Woman registration however, does anyone know how to do it?).
-ResilientLady

[Anonymous]

ResiliantLady,

Congratulations on the name change! You are a lady, indeed. Your post was from your new name so something worked...

bunny

[Anonymous]

Hi bunny, thanx for your encouragements... It still feels a bit weird for me to write "lady" as part of my new name   but I guess I will get used to it ...