Author Topic: the shame of it  (Read 4185 times)

Guest

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Re: the shame of it
« Reply #15 on: September 25, 2011, 05:06:41 PM »
Good, Hops.

you said earlier:
Quote
I am interested in knowing whether anyone else thinks shame may be "below the radar" and be sometimes confused with other feelings, like anxiety or anger or fatigue...
I think so. Anger may arise from/because of confusion. Once my confusion lifts, and I can see more clearly, that's when I may be able to realise when I have transgressed myself. And it's a horrible moment. And I might need to feel guilt at the same time. It's complicated. Anxiety might be a sign that all is not well, an alert?

Hopalong

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Re: the shame of it
« Reply #16 on: September 25, 2011, 11:36:13 PM »
Ugh.
I majored in anxiety.

Have to say, the actual constant symptoms of free-floating anxiety (that horrible disembodied dread) and the full-scale panic attacks (well, don't count my recent chest pain scares, which tested negative)... but generally, I think my anxiety is a heck of a lot better.

I have graduated to WORRY.

May sound like a joke but actually, for me, worry is an improvement. It's more...rational? And, I think passing menopause also helped.

Neither helps me live well but worry is less disabling than anxiety, I think because it's easier to name:

I am worried about _____ (something clear) as opposed to I feel anxious (general dread).

Hops
"That'll do, pig, that'll do."

sKePTiKal

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Re: the shame of it
« Reply #17 on: September 26, 2011, 08:42:51 AM »
Hops, before I have a completely right-brained, ADD melt-down this morning...

I wanted to say I think it might be possible to tell healthy shame apart from the toxic kind... because healthy shame dissapates and responds to compassion and forgiveness of self. Apply as needed! Toxic shame needs something in addition to those "remedies"... but I can't put a name to that yet.

With toxic shame, it's not possible to forgive oneself, because there isn't any "thing" that one has done wrong. The shame came from outside; unjustly. The wound is deeper than that.

That's all for now. I gotta go find all the pieces of me, and put them together in some pattern resembling my normal persona this morning. Maybe I'm sick... sure not thinking on all cylinders.

OH - and I wanted to share some good news that might help shorten your worry list! It was a lengthy article in the Review section of Sat's WSJ - "Violence Vanquished", Stephen Pinker - according to his analysis of the numbers, actual acts of violence have decreased significantly since the middle ages. The article is adapted from his new book: "The Better Angels of Our Nature: Why Violence Has Declined" (Viking).
Success is never final, failure is never fatal.

BonesMS

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Re: the shame of it
« Reply #18 on: September 26, 2011, 09:47:23 AM »
and your thoughts too, Bones, TT, PR--

I am still absorbing.

xo
Hops

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Back Off Bug-A-Loo!

Guest

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Re: the shame of it
« Reply #19 on: September 26, 2011, 09:49:24 AM »
Hops

Quote
my recent chest pain scares, which tested negative  
GOOD. For the test result, that is.

Glad too that you've graduated to worry. I don't take it as a joke. Worry has a place (and a time).

PR

I agree with your remedies for healthy shame. Accepting it comes first. Well, experiencing it and acknowledging it come first!

Toxic shame remedy: doesn't that depend on your type of personality disorder, or, the way your brain deals with healthy shame anyway? Or don't PDs have the same kind of toxic shame? Ha! Sorry. That's probably not the sort of question I should pose when you say you're heading for RB ADD meltdown.

Hope any anxiety/worry/meltdowns are short-lived and kept in perspective.

sKePTiKal

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Re: the shame of it
« Reply #20 on: September 27, 2011, 09:01:08 AM »
Toxic shame doesn't really imply a PD, nor vice versa. Perhaps they co-exist sometimes... it's not a given correlation, because it is "fixable" with attention and effort and compassion.

Toxic shame, a totally different animal than healthy shame, is when a person's self-image, self-respect, whole concept on oneself... has been manipulated, twisted, made into an object of ridicule and tagged with a "bad" or "unworthy" label... and then stuffed back down one's own throat, and then forced to swallow and digest and "be" this... because someone else SAID so... while the "self" in question here... was powerless to object or reject the definition of self, as such an abomination.

Or believed themselves powerless.

By inference, with toxic shame, the person is forced to accept that (usually) a specific "other person" is wiser, smarter, more insightful, and perfectly within their rights to completely dominate and control the person who has swallowed this idea that they are less than... other people.

Possibly, there is a remedy akin to the remedy for healthy shame - where one is able to accept the wrong done and then forgive oneself. And that remedy requires another person... who is able to compassionately relieve that awful shame, by presenting another authoritative point of view. Over-ruling the original wound of toxic shame. Slowly, but surely persuading the "victim" here... that it was all wrong... but the responsibility of it; the accountability... doesn't belong with the "victim". The "victim" is a human being, and as such capable of thinking and feeling and even acting on, the whole range of emotional responses.

Including turning on one's self because of the survival instinct and anger combined in a nasty cocktail. Beating oneself up with "OH I should've..." or comparing oneself to other "higher" human beings and then over-reacting on how oneself is lacking... or holding unrealistic expectations of one's normal ability; perfectionism... or being over-responsible for things outside of the scope of one's control... or even having a series of physical "accidents" - actually hurting oneself... and self-destructive behavior and self-sabotage. Toxic shame's whole "intent" is to wipe out the existence of the self, as it is naturally. And yet, the survival instinct in all of us will fight tooth and nail to keep alive... setting up an internal conflict.

Occasionally, the person suffering from the toxic form of shame turns it outward, in hostility. Relieving their agony of the conflict between shame and survival instinct by inflicting the same unjust power of shame onto others... and even, attempting to control others completely through that shame... in other words, the gamut of Nism.

At least, this is how I understand the difference between healthy shame and toxic shame. For now. I doubt that it's complete or even that deep. But perhaps it helps explain how people can be "split" within themselves and one way back, to being a whole person again. Over time, one can learn to forgive oneself for those instinctual, desperate measures taken to survive and the initial swallowing of and perception of powerlessness... and then address the behaviors that arose from such a perverted sense of self being. Even over time, one retains a sensitive "button"... to criticism, judgement, even amiable teasing because it pushes on scar tissue. Self-doubt remains. Trust of oneself has to be earned; proven. And it takes a while to get comfortable with the idea that it's human to "matter"... at least to oneself.

That's my left brain explanation. My right brain explanation is simply that it's never too late to learn to love and care for oneself, that one matters to oneself... and that if what's necessary to care for myself conflicts with what others expect or want from me... I can put myself first without also beating myself up for it. No one has to "approve" of it or me. Except me.

<end of pontificating lecture>

Pardon the interruption and pre-emption of the topic. Back to your normally scheduled programming.
Success is never final, failure is never fatal.

Guest

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Re: the shame of it
« Reply #21 on: September 27, 2011, 10:23:00 AM »
That mostly sounds very familiar to me. I was struck by :

presenting another authoritative point of view

so very, very important.

Thanks for that, PR.