Setting boundaries

[Redhead Erin]

I have to make up some boundaries for dealing with her.  I will probably change them, but I need to start somewhere. 

First, I wnat to get in the right frame of mind with one of my favorite poems:

Autobiography in Five Short Chapters by:Portia Nelson I

I
I walk down the street.
There is deep hole in the sidewalk.
I fall in
I am lost … I am helpless
It isn't my fault.
It takes forever to find a way out.

II
I walk down the same street,
There is a deep hole in the sidewalk.
I pretend I don't see it.
I fall in again.
I can't believe I am in the same place.
But it isn't my fault.
It still takes a long time to get out.

III
I walk down the same street
There is a deep hole in the sidewalk.
I see it is there.
I still fall in … it's a habit.
My eyes are open
I know where I am.
It is my fault.
I get out immediately.

IV
I walk down the same street.
There is a deep hole in the sidewalk
I walk around it.

V
I walk down another street.

Ok, I'm ready.  In this case, the hole I keep falling in is having my life disrupted by her stupid attention-grabbing tactics.  This is the first draft at LC which may eventually evolve into NC, depending. 

Erin's rules for engagement:

1.  I need at least a few days notice when making plans.
2.  I need at least 24 hours notice when changing plans.
3.  Plans with NM will not interfere with work or scheduled family time.
4. Plans will always involve agreed-upon financial compensation before I agree to them.
5. I will agree to NOTHING without first hanging up the phone and thinking carefully about it.  I will consider the financial cost, intrusions into my work, family, or rest time, and as many other factors as I can think of before calling back, at me own leisure, with my decision.
6. Her emergencies are not my emergencies. 
7.  I reserve the right to cancel plans if she tries to change the rules at the last minute.
8.  Visits will have a definite and pre-planned end time that will allow me to get wherever I need to go next (even home to bed) without rushing. I must remember to receive my compensation well before this time, and compose myself to leave at the time designated.
9.  I will not lie to her or anyone.  This means I will not have to tell her I love her.

[BonesMS]

Sounds like a good plan to me!

If I may share one of my favorites:  "Lack of planning on your part does NOT constitute an emergency on my part."

Bones

[sKePTiKal]

"Rules of Engagement"! LOL... I get it.

ALL of these are good, reasonable expectations... and clearly define that separation boundary. I think maybe #5 might be the most valuable, tho. It was for me and one of the best results of practicing this, was that I taught myself to get out of the anger/outrage loop... (or at least, closer to getting out!!) You called her a puppet-master, I think, in your first post... well our "strings" turn out to our emotional equilibrium, I think. And for you - also precious time & energy that could be directed to other things that probably need some looking after and mothering... wife-ing... and being YOU.

It's kinda fun to watch the bewilderment on Nmom's face, when I don't react the way she's programmed me to react... when I'm not all upset and topsy-turvy and ready to chew nails in reaction to her. Even better! Propose an easy, rational solution... and watch how fast she changes the subject. For whatever reason, the contact she's always initiated is less frequent than ever. It would be egotistical, for me to think I finally "housebroke" her to my rules... but it's tempting! In reality, what has happened is that she's found someone else who has buttons that can be easily pushed - it's like an outlaw in a western, shooting bullets at someone's feet demanding "dance! Dance, fool, dance!" She only turns back to me, with the same warped need from a "relationship", when that person isn't readily available. I don't know what to call this... I just know it's a sick way to be.

I'm babbling, sorry! Look, I think you found a workable and suitable plan for yourself by talking it out. It's a great "recipe" that would work and could be customized, for quite a few of us. Keep us posted on how things get implemented - put into practice - your successes and the funny things that happen. There will be humor in practicing those rules of yours... tho' it may sometimes be pretty snarky humor.

[Redhead Erin]

Well, she called today and I forgot to hang up before agreeing to anything.  But She wants to go shopping again like before.  So I told her it was inexcusable that she had changed all the plans at the last minute because her friends called.  I told her I would need at least a few days notice before planning anything and a days notice before changing anything.  I dodnt agree to much except that she would get to go shopping.  But that is not enough--now she wants me to go out to breakfast with her!  How freaking early does she think I can get up??  ANd even stranger, I have told her repeatedly that it takes 90 minutes to get to her house, but she for some reason thinks iI leave 45 minutes early, I can swing by her house on the way to work and go out for a meal.  Thinking about this, I see why were were always late to stuff when I was a kid! SHe seems to have no concept of or regared for the way time works.  OK.  Enough for now.  Sheesh!  I have to go get ready to start my day.  See ya!   

[ann3]

Hi Erin,

I see you're in the process of extricating yourself from the needy, demanding grip of an NM.  Congratulations!  Your freedom has already begun!!

I like the poem & I like your rules.

May I suggest a book on boundaries that really helped me?  "Where to Draw the Line: How to Set Healthy Boundaries Every Day" by Anne Katherine.

Please prepare yourself for your NM's backlash when you begin enforcing your boundaries.  Ns hate when others enforce boundaries.  Please try to resist succumbing to your NM's possible (probable) attempts to re-control you thru her use of inflicting guilt & shame on you.  Hopefully  guilt & shame will no longer cause you to act like her puppet.

When dealing with needy & demanding Ns, I like to feel, to envision that I am releasing myself from their grip & I am releasing them to Gd:  Let go & let Gd.  I didn't make this person into an N, I can't change them, so I release them to Gd & I free myself.  The N has a Higher Power & we ain't it!  So, Let go & let Gd.

Also, making yourself unavailable to the N (including an NM) really works. Tell the N you're not available because: You're away on a vacation, busy at work etc.  Caller id is essential:  do not answer when they call & if you must, call back in a few days.  Whenever possible, use email instead of the phone because email is more detaching.  When on the phone w/ the N, limit the time of the call to 3 or 5 minutes.  Remember:  you're very busy & don't have time for the N.  Also, try to limit your face to face interaction with NM.

In the big picture, I'm talking about limited contact, which I believe you previously mentioned.

Anyway, these things worked for me, hope they'll work for you.

Edit:
Erin, I see your NM is financially helping you due to the bad economy.  Accepting $ from NMs may slow down your ability to fully enforce your boundaries.  Maybe you could get a part time job else where or is there another way to earn $?  Ns love to control others via $.  But, even if NM is helping you, you still deserve to be treated w/ respect. 

[Redhead Erin]

Yeah, I'm stuck taking her cash at the moment because I am trapped in a horrible crippling mortgage.  I am in the process of getting it restructured, and when I do, I can tell her to kiss my ass if I want.  There is another problem in that she is the main connection between my son and my foster-brothers kids, effectively my kid's cousins.  Foster bro and his wife seem to think NM walks on water, and I am not sure how to sever the one relationship without destroying the other.  Oh, well.  I don't have to worry about it now.

Having given this some thought, I am fairly certain I do not want to go out for breakfast with her.  I have worked very hard to go from a size 16 to a size 4 over the last 8 years.  Besides not wanting to get up at the crack of dawn, I furthermore do not wish to consume a greasy, calorie-laden breakfast that is only going to clog my arteries and cling to my ass. 

If I leave the house at 10 am I can get to her by noon, which is plenty of time to go for a light lunch at Panera or Taco Bell (I truly dig their Taco Salad, fresco style!) and still leave for work by 2.  My son can do his homework there (he is homeschooled) and my husband can take her shopping after he gets off work.   She usually pays for whatever groceries I pick out for myself, so I can send hubby with a list.  Then she will take hubby and kiddo out for dinner and they can go home. 

On its surface, this is a pretty good arrangement: She gets to see me, kid gets a free sitter, we get some groceries, and everybody gets fed. It fits nicely into my existing schedule. 

The problem is, every time I see or even talk to her, it sets off a round of uncontrolled binge eating which lasts several days to a week. This is why it took me 8 years to lose 60 pounds.   I just got past the last one, and then she had to go and call me today.  So I ate an entire bag of kettle corn today.

[fraidycat]

Erin you sound ready and prepared for your own independence. It's never easy but you sound very strong...ohhh to have the tenacity of a redhead! I know you'll pull through!
Best wishes,

Fraidy

[sKePTiKal]

The problem is, every time I see or even talk to her, it sets off a round of uncontrolled binge eating which lasts several days to a week. This is why it took me 8 years to lose 60 pounds.   I just got past the last one, and then she had to go and call me today.  So I ate an entire bag of kettle corn today.

OK, so... if you are setting a boundary about even deciding when/where you'll interact with her... it's also possible to retrain yourself to set a boundary for yourself: to deliberately, intentionally, consciously choose what you will "console" yourself with, reward yourself, or otherwise use to regain calm & equilibrium of your "normal" space again. And it might give you some insight into why you chose food to extend the damage of Nmom... why this thing instead of something else... via an unconscious (yet almost angrily defiant, in my case) self-harm.

So, it helps to have a plan in place prior to the next interaction. I said helps, because working on this has been an excruciatingly tedious and long struggle for me... but I'm still persisting with it. Just talking on the phone with my mom... I feel as though a whole-body cast is woven right around me, and it shrinks & tightens & squeezes the "me" out of me... I feel as flat as roadkill... and just as "dead"... as if "I" don't even exist to my mom except as an object that exists only for her enjoyment & use... and well, that kind of invalidation hurts so bad, so deeply... that I find I really don't care if I live or die... and just like with a home invasion or sexual assault, I feel violated and "dirty" and all my cells are seeking immediate "cleansing"... relief from the awful feelings... and the normal order of "me" again. Sometimes, I'll grab a bag of chips and read the paper for 2 hours - withdrawing - until the feelings lift or change. Sometimes, I grab my smokes and a beer, right after answering the phone.... sound familiar??? I'm trying to fend off the reflex disgust and anguish of dealing with her... and also put myself in a state where she can't hurt me; protecting & insulating & hiding myself.

At some point, it was pointed out to me or I realized finally... that I was sacrificing me and beating up on myself, over & above the unpleasantness which is the experience of interacting with my mom, for me. Really, I'm not that dumb... but I couldn't deny this is what I was doing. I think perhaps the reasons each person who's found a way to self-harm, does this are pretty similar; it's the details that differ though... chosen method, etc. For me, it was invalidation that triggered this. I am emotionally allergic to being only an "object" to someone - anyone... and rather than insist on being treated as human with feelings... I am deep-down ashamed that I matter so little to my mom (not my fault, I learned), so I slink away (withdraw) and then punish myself for being such a worm & coward.... oh yes, and my worst "sin" is that I NEED so much... I need comfort, validation, guidance and limits on the behaviors I indulge in... which circles right around to the WHY: because my mom didn't supply this... didn't even allow me the recognition of having my own thoughts & feelings separate from hers... and every interaction only reminds me of this "place" in the universe with my name on it.

SIGH... so this is what's called a feedback loop, which is sort of a perpetual process... unless a disruption is inserted, some piece of it changed... it'll merrily keep spinning away and is so slippery, it's hard to get a handle on it. The disruption I used - sort of a compromise for this phase - is at least be aware of what I'm doing to myself... even if I simply accept it and let it be... and then, instead of withdrawing... I deliberately try fill the need that's only been increased from contact with my alien-mom. I pet my animals... play with them... ask for a hug from hubs... getting that validation I need... telling him the worst of my mom's delusions...

and over time, this is working to help me be able to talk to her and not unconsciously "go through the motions" of self-harm; I'm gaining some intentional control over this. It moves at the space of glaciers, it feels like... because my habits go back so many years... but by god, it IS working... I have the concrete evidence. It didn't work at all for me to start by denying myself the bad things. My unconscious response and need was way stronger (and trickier) than the rational part of me. I kept failing... and you know how much that helps, right?? So, I flipped it all around... and left the bad habits alone... and made sure that I focussed on meeting my needs, those deep down emotional needs first, foremost, and especially any time I had to deal with my mom.

This is what's working for me. I reasoned that if the intensity level of my needs were lower... it would be easier to postpone that cigarette... or grab tea instead of beer... If I filled up that "hole" of need I wouldn't be so vulnerable to... nor so scripted as to automatically feel... that invalidation and pain anymore. Took awhile, too and it needs constant maintenance (like brushing your teeth)... and I'm so happy it's working, I'm not even asking the "why does it work" stuff.

Hope this makes sense - maybe trying something like this (customize to your heart's content!) - will work where "strict diets", "rules", etc always cave in for you too.

[Redhead Erin]

Well, it SEEMED like it was going to work . . . .

To answer your first question, PR food is my drug of choice b/c it was a huge part of the control struggle that was my childhood and adolescence.  Huge amounts of my time and interaction with my mother had to do with her disgust with female bodies in general and mine in particular, her attempts to control my diet and my weight, and my rebellion binge eating and subsequent body image disorders.  It was ugly, to say the least. 

So we tried to stick to my plan the first week.  At least *I* tried.  Just as I was about to leave for work, she suddenly started having issues with her vision. So like the stripper that I am, I told her I could take her to the eye doctor if she would buy out my night (I only charged her the low end of what I expect to make of a Friday night).  So I took her to the doc, and then we went out for Mexican food.  I left in time to go home and get my stick for my hockey lesson.  So far, so good.

SHE CALLED ME AS SOON AS I GOT TO MY HOUSE. Truly.  I meant to read my kid a story, grab the stick, and get to the rink.  But she had to go and call me and tell me that the electrician had been round to repair something in the living room, and that the refrigerator had also been affected, and that ALL THE FOOD WE HAD JUST BOUGHT WOULD HAVE TO BE THROWN OUT and that I would have to RETURN TO HER HOUSE AND TAKE HER TO BUY MORE FOOD.

Well, we had plans for Saturday, but I needed a sitter for Saturday night, so I told her I would take her Sunday. I sort of figured it in my head that this would be a trade-off for a free short-notice sitter on a prime party weekend.  However, I was not prepared for how difficult this would be.  I can't remember all the particulars now, but she was trying to extract the most attention she could from my family, and I was trying to save my husband from coming over to her house and taking her shopping, which I was unable to do.  (We tend to have a lot of logistical issues that involve one of us starting something and the other finishing it.)  He oculd have been spared a trip and a wasted afternoon if only she would have cooperated, which she would not.

Just let me say, it was ugly. 

Today was another scheduled shopping day.

Before I tell you about it, let me just add that my son's pet mouse died last night, and I already felt like the worlds biggest jerk for not being there for him when he found her. I got only 3 hours of sleep last night and got up early so I could help him bury her. That was the beginning of my day, and it went
_downhill form there.

However, I also have cause for a small celebration.  Note my small victories in bold type.

  I planned to go early and take her to get her nails done (I use the same salon which is near her house, and yes, I really have to go to that one) then Ted would pick up Kiddo and take him to pick up all the popcorn ($2250 worth) that he had sold for Cub scouts, and then Ted would take her shopping tomorrow. Sheesh--I never saw so much putzing around in all my life!  Firstr she claimed she didnt ahve any money for the salon I reminded her th check the various envelopes she keeps in her purse.  She had plenty. Lo and behold, as soon as it was time for me to take her home form the salon, she suddenly went blind and had to go to the doc.  So same drill as before.I made sure to tell her I could take her, only if she replaced my income but OMG, what a pain in the a$$ she wanted to be today.  She was mad at me b/c I dropped her off at the doc and then went to get myself some desperately-needed coffee. (Too bad.  I just let her out o fthe car and said, "I'll be back in five minutes!") She picked a fight with me at the eye doc because she wanted me to sit in a different chair than the one I wanted to sit in. I got up and went to sit in the waiting room.  Since I wasn't going to work anyway at that point (and there was no hockey tonight) I told her I would just take her shopping and save Ted the trip tomorrow.  I mentioned to her that she should get enough food for 2 weeks, because it was turning out that we couldn't take her every week as originally planned. This lead to a huge round of manipulation, fakey-fake crying, and assorted other bull-crud. What would she do if she couldn't make it to the sotre every single week?  Have milk delivered and stock up on everything else.  How could I be so mean?   I'm not being mean, I'm just being practical.  And on and on and on. You know how it goes. . . . .

After we left the store, I noticed the time and mentioned that it would be close to 11 pm when I got home.  I was bone-tired, and to make it worse, this is the first day of my period and I ache all over. So I really, really just wanted to go home.   After I had my car loaded with groceries (payment) and was already running and warming up, she wanted me to "sit down and let's talk this over."  Yeah, you know what that means . . . loet her try to talk me into doing things her way. I refused.  I pointed out yet again that I had a long, dark drive and had had very little sleep, and athat I needed to get going before it got any  later.  More tears and finagling.  I had enough.  I pointed out, fairly calmly, htat this is a perfect example of how she really has no regard for me or my time.  I said, the caring response would be, "Erin, I know you have a long drive and you are very tired.  I willl call you later and we can discuss this when you are rested". I told her she was being selfish by wanting me to stay later than I already had,kwhen I might find myself unsafe to drive.  She started trying to tell me that the money she had paid me (for my time, remember, to make up f r not going to work b/c  was too busy kissing her a$$) proved she loved me.  I said, "remember the Beatles?  HTey did a really great song:Money. Can't. Buy. Me. Love.! "   And I walked out.

I called Ted on the way home and cried, just form the stress of it all. I ate more than I would have, left to my own devices, but I did not overeat grotesquely.   I was a little snippy and abrupt, but I did not yell, scream or cuss.  I got my point across with a reasonable amount of assertiveness. I did not get sucked into one single argument.  And I did not give in.

[BonesMS]

((((((((((((((((((((((Erin))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))

Good for you!!!!  You Go, Girl!!!!!

Bones

[Hopalong]

Wow wow wow.

Erin -- you were literally practicing healthy assertiveness with a lot of that.

Find an assertiveness training workshop! You will soar with that healthy technique and never be afraid to deal with her again!

KUDOS. I am really impressed. You sense the healthly direction and sound determined to get there.

Hops

[sKePTiKal]

You did REAL GOOD, Erin!! Don't forget to pat yourself on the back, too.

It gets easier with practice and you'll figure out the connection with food, over time, too. I have this theory (nothing to support it, really) that once we find a way to express our anger appropriately at the transgressor of boundaries, with enough practice we stop taking the anger out on ourselves. And then, once we've got new habits about that... we find we have a lot more control over those reflexive bad habits that have been intractable and unchanging, for so long. Those kinds of habits just become ordinary habits that are way more easily changed. I THINK; I'm still working on that one myself.

This just occurred to me to suggest to you. I figure if you decide to try it, you'll be in for a real "campaign" of work with your mom, to implement it. But, it might just be worth that agony. I don't know how old your mom is, but it seems as if she has some legitimate (or at least perceived) needs... for a driver, someone to assist with household tasks & management, etc. And if she's paying you, there's no reason she couldn't pay someone else (except her "need" to irritate you) right? There are plenty of reputable agencies or even individuals who could do that instead of you and your hubby. And they don't have your "buttons"; sometimes they have the training to deal with these frustrating behaviors, too. Or at least experience... and it's not as personal with them.

Maybe right now isn't the "right" timing to try to get mom to accept this idea - for you, that is. I think you said the money is helping out right now? So, stick the idea in a back pocket for later on. Because at some point, in your practice of boundaries you're going to more than likely want to wean mom off calling you for every single thing, and insisting you drop everything - that what you're doing is less important than running at her beck & call. And it could be that mom will begin to resent your setting boundaries and feeling more comfortable expressing your anger & frustration at her... and having someone more neutral to rely on would be more attractive to her. This could enable you to reset the terms of the relationship with mom... and also let you devote more time to your own life and family. It's a possibility anyway; don't know how likely it is. But it would certainly limit how frequently your patience is tested, right??

Anyway, bask in your success for now! That was a huge step.

[Redhead Erin]

She used to hire help, but the wife of the couple she hired has some health problems.  They really knew how to supply her NS.  I have seen them in actiion.  I dont know if they were doing it on purpose to keep her business or if it was just the way they are, but they were GOOD!

She also pays her "friends" to take her places, but they have all had enough of her.

She still has a cleaning woman.

I don't think most hired help will kiss her a$$ like I have been.

This morning I was running around like a nut case looking f r things for my photo shoot today (I am an amateur model), which I should have done yesterday, except I was not home.  Ted was sitting on the bed watching me.  And he said the most interesting thing to me:

"You absolutely cannot go over there every week.  You will be a basket case."

Really?  I hadn't noticed!  Honestly, I had considered her "need" to go shopping every week in terms of her grocery requirements, the strain on Ted's time, the interruption  to Kiddo's school schedule, gas expenses, weatr on my car, and so on, but I had never, ever considered the basic fact that being around that woman is dangerous to my own mental health.

[sKePTiKal]

being around that woman is dangerous to my own mental health.

LOL!!! Well, now you know, right? This is what I mean, when I say I'm allergic to my mom!

But on a more serious note: Nmom's N-goal is accomplished if you're not even thinking about what you need... that you have needs, in fact. Sure, she may very well have valid needs for assistance herself... but it doesn't have to be YOU she turns to, does it? She might have to behave herself, if it's someone else, right? Oh boo-hoo... Life can be tough sometimes, when you go out of your way to make people miserable, huh?

You need to memorize these, Erin - post 'em next to the phone too. You wrote 'em:

Erin's rules for engagement:

1.  I need at least a few days notice when making plans.
2.  I need at least 24 hours notice when changing plans.
3.  Plans with NM will not interfere with work or scheduled family time.
4. Plans will always involve agreed-upon financial compensation before I agree to them.
5. I will agree to NOTHING without first hanging up the phone and thinking carefully about it.  I will consider the financial cost, intrusions into my work, family, or rest time, and as many other factors as I can think of before calling back, at me own leisure, with my decision.
6. Her emergencies are not my emergencies. 
7.  I reserve the right to cancel plans if she tries to change the rules at the last minute.
8.  Visits will have a definite and pre-planned end time that will allow me to get wherever I need to go next (even home to bed) without rushing. I must remember to receive my compensation well before this time, and compose myself to leave at the time designated.
9.  I will not lie to her or anyone.  This means I will not have to tell her I love her. 
 

It takes awhile to learn to automatically play by these rules, Erin. Lots of practice. It doesn't happen overnight or with a wave of a magic wand. Each time I've re-engaged with my FOO, I've debated it with myself... whether the situation is as serious; the need that great as depicted... and whether or not they're all adults and tough as it is, will be able to handle their problem without me flying in to the rescue. Each time I've caved... I've gotten screwed... and the "horror of the situation" comes & sits on my shoulder again... and I really wanna kick myself for falling for the same old trick, again.

You could also program: "We won't get fooled again" by the WHO... into your iPod or phone, or whatever. Just know, that because we are caring human beings... trying to always do the right thing by others... we ARE gonna let ourselves re-engage... and it's precisely that which is the problem for me: that our sympathies can argue with our rational experience and win out so that we engage again... and the whole awful boring same old script starts to wind up again.  The times I've said no and chose not to engage - guess what?? the world didn't end, there was no catastrophe, and somehow these people who claimed they couldn't go on without my help DID - just fine.

And I didn't end up a basket case, either. (I almost always do, when I engage - not calm at all!    ). 

[Redhead Erin]

My son asked me why the call it a "basket case" and not something else.  Good question!

I still keep in touch (and occasionally go drinking with) my second-ever boyfriend, who is something like 10 years older than I am. He knew me at the time I was still living at home, trying to get clear of NM and bro-whatever (psycho nutso first BF turned "family friend").  We like to hang out together because neither of us knows anybody who is more messed up than we are, and sometimes its nice not to be the most damaged person in the room. It's extremely validating to hear him say in his very calm, analytical, college-professor voice, that of all the people he has ever known, which includes some very certifiably institutionalized mentally ill individuals, that he has never known anybody who had a more messed up relationship with thier mother, or anybody who had, a weirder person for a mother than I had.

If you knew Bob, you would know that's sayin' something!

It makes me feel better to know that there is somebody else, not just me and Ted, who is personally inconvenienced by NM's bull-crud, who really thinks she is crazy.  Bob says he called it the first time he met her.  He also seems to think the situation is way worse than I realize, apparently because I am too close to it. That is sort of scary to think of, too. Not sure which is worse--that I don't see the situation for what it might really be, or that it might be even worse than it seems!

Well, the decision is made, at least for this week.  Ted has forbidden me to take her shopping. (He isnt the kind of man to "forbid" me to do things, and I really believe he is right about this, so I am not arguing when he says "Don't you dare take her this week--it will only make her think she is winning!'")  He thinks, (rightly so, I s'pose) that if we give in now, it will only encourage her.  I agree. 

I am also training my son when she calls to say, "Mom can't talk right now, can I have her call you back?"  Its one more barrier I can put up.