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New thread for flirting, opposite sex relationship stuff

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Hopalong:
Thanks, FW...
You're right, it sounds ridiculous.

But when I'm anxious (my D arrives tomorrow so I'm a little off balance) I think in perfectionistic terms.
I'll post about that on my other "D" thread at some point, not this one.

It's stupid. Thank you.

Hops

sKePTiKal:
The social scientists have recognized this tendency to believe that "other people" eat properly, exercise regularly, have Better Homes & Gardens perfect abodes, and are extremely well-organized and self-disciplined. Statistically speaking, we exaggerate what we believe others are like and do... discounting ourselves... for both good/bad attributes. (No matter our backgrounds, parenting, trauma etc)

It's as if we use one set of judgements & standards & values for ourselves and another for "other people". Sometimes, we're the perfect ones and everyone else needs to get a clue... sometimes it's the other way round. To a social scientist, an N is simply someone who always believes they're perfect & that there's something flawed with everyone else. Despite data, evidence, etc even.

I've migrated in my reading to social science (which is where my interests in human behavior started oh so many years ago...) and I think I can finally see why I'm a bit "tangled up and confused" right now. It's like thinking in two different languages that have some overlap... say French and Spanish. From combining what I now know about psych (which will never be enough) and dysfunctional parenting and PDs with Social Science, there is a "bigger universe" with new patterns and clues emerging in my thinking, by overlaying the social science concepts onto the psych... and finding consistency, differences, etc.

Hops:
this last book I read dives into just what "self-discipline" is... what "willpower" is/isn't. I was hoping that I might learn something from the book, that I could put to use in my own struggles, you know? To construct what Gaining Strength always asked for: a how-to plan...

The dust hasn't settled yet on the creative integration of these new-er ideas in my head... but I am certain now, that "willpower" and "self-discipline" AREN'T value-based character attributes that people either have or don't have. Rather, they are skills and habits that people develop and the seed bed for those skills starts in childhood but most people work on this throughout their lifetimes - more intensely at some points, than others. So, to my way of thinking... everyone CAN learn these... degree of difficulty, natural ability and all that, will apply - but it can be done.

Where some of the "overlay" happens... is that thoughts and emotions are also involved in that learning... establishing and refining those skills. One emotion that was explained in some detail, was how shame fits into that process. And that often, say in the case of self-harm or self-sabotage habits, the shame actually generates the "energy" to keep the cycle going, in perpetuity. Which is one of the reasons those kinds of self-sabotage seem insurmountable and immutable - regardless of what is thrown at them.

Now, throw in relationships... in my instance... and relationship/attachment issues... and hypersensitivity to external control/criticism/ and defense-mechanism "controlling" to protect myself... and we have a toilet bowl of volatile variables again. The "what the hell effect" - of throwing away all self-discipline, working toward self-selected goals... "giving up"... because one small slip-up or deviance from the goal = abject and total failure in the totalitarian regime of shame... this gets magnified and becomes a self-protective habit.

That totalitarianism... of black/white thinking... and the constant no-win double-bind of shame/not ever being "good enough" to earn the performance reward of accomplishment is what I find myself trapped in and unable to articulate most of the time. That wouldn't contribute to a disruption of "attunement" or sense of well-being or being understood.... noooooooooooooo.
</sarcasm>

This also kills my motivation - my "want-tos" - even my want to being aware of what I really need. That's the "Ego Depletion" effect and it's a secondary, even complimentary process that helps shame regain it's reign of despair and agony. So that, one is drained of inner resources and overwhelmed with real, physical, emotional and intellectual needs... and yet unable to return to the necessary equilibrium on one's own. The studies have shown that people's glucose levels drop during the Ego Depletion phase and just like a diabetic who's blood sugar has dropped too low... one is unable to help oneself... and OH LOOK.... that's an opportunity for shame to creep in again, isn't it?


Whatever the habit one is trying to "edit" and change... I also know (belatedly) you have to start with a complete assessment of "where you are right now"... your starting point. Fusing in what we've all learned here... some self-compassion is a good combination with that assessment.

Remove or at least lower the shame-factor involved in where you calculate that starting point is, in comparison to other people (because there's a better than 50% chance you're distorting where others are). Shame is one of those tools that can backfire easily... like a double-edged sword. Shame can motivate... shame over-used or misused can deny one the chance to self-regulate, removes the satisfaction reward... the performance achievement... people shut down, give up, stop trying and then blame/shame themselves.

Then find a reward that fills part of one's genuine needs. Like a "down payment", no matter how small... it will start to add up. Pennies, to dollars, etc... drops of water to oceans...

I'm talking this out, as much for myself as to suggest the ideas to you, Hops. To make sure I understand it, myself. The "hope" in all this, is that even by making small, incremental changes... one creates the energy - and perhaps what I call the "space" - to add in more small changes, after enough time has elapsed to make the first changes "automatic"... in other words, habit or routine.

And over a longer period of time, those new habits become "definitions" of part of "who we are"... identity or self.


I THINK, anyway. I'm still experimenting; and so far... so good. I've been able to "edit" a few small habits... adding in a couple... they now seem normal... and I'm "programmed" to want to keep to those habits. I don't "like" not keeping to those habits. Now, to expand the scope... without shooting for the long-range goals and skipping all the steps in between that all-together create the ability to achieve the long-term goal.

Maybe the terms of this way of talking/thinking about these kinds of issues aren't going to be so useful to everyone. I found that working from and in the emotional space, well... it just didn't go far enough... and it missed some things entirely that I need to work on... and I was getting to be an emotional junkie - needing lots & lots of reassurance - but not "getting on with it.

sKePTiKal:

--- Quote from: Freshwater on January 14, 2012, 10:39:59 AM ---((((((PR)))))) it always takes two to tango.

Maybe you don't have to change just you. Maybe what could change is the way the dance happens (the thing that happens between you, not to either of you). At least, being human, we can dance. :)

--- End quote ---

Right now, we're sort of circling each other, FW. I'm getting clearer about what I need - which feeds into those wants - I just can't open my mouth and say the words. I can't initiate... reach out & whirl him around... I'm not sure I have a clue how to dance... despite analyzing it to death and having lots & lots of practice... but little actual dancing.

And oh... how my mother hated me dancing, especially with my dad. She thought it was something putrid, lewd and awful... not at all what it was: innocent fun. And these days, I don't give a damn what my mom thinks... but there it is: the conflict between having fun, being a normal social person... and being like my mom, instead. Being PUNISHED for NOT being like my mom. Until I "broke" and pretended to be like her - so she would leave me the F alone. And it's still echoing around, and around in my head... with malevolent, stupid whispers... that I'm not allowed to have fun; not allowed to feel good and most definitely not allowed "Look at me, see what I can do"... because mom would feel bad; that would hurt her.

A mother's jealousy and envy and competition is the really ugly thing here. Not my dad & me jitterbugging...

Meh:

--- Quote from: PhoenixRising on January 16, 2012, 08:09:03 AM ---.. but there it is: the conflict between having fun, being a normal social person... and being like my mom, instead. Being PUNISHED for NOT being like my mom. Until I "broke" and pretended to be like her - so she would leave me the F alone. And it's still echoing around, and around in my head... with malevolent, stupid whispers... that I'm not allowed to have fun; not allowed to feel good and most definitely not allowed "Look at me, see what I can do"... because mom would feel bad; that would hurt her.A mother's jealousy and envy and competition is the really ugly thing here. Not my dad & me jitterbugging...

--- End quote ---

I hear ya, Phoenix, I GET this one.

sKePTiKal:
tt -

I was thinking of your plate portion example last night at dinner... both hubs & I have the same "training" as your hubs... to allow someone else "first pick" or the biggest portion*, etc. Try to imagine some of the insanely funny conversations we have as each defers to the other... then, from my perspective, understand that absolutely almost every task and decision we undertake as a couple comes down to this. He doesn't believe me (trigger) when I say I really don't care what we eat for this meal... and instead of making a choice by himself... and assuming the responsibility for making it... constantly "tugs" at me to be involved with and make the decision for him. And then, he inserts himself into the "how" (another trigger)... despite having deferred about the decision in the first place. And he never admits that my "how" might be just as effective as his "how"; his "how" is always better.

Then, when I can't take it anymore - I'm the drama queen. She's not very nice, the way I "play" that role. Think: Angelina Jolie as an assassin. I'm frustrated and would rather starve (or feed myself separately) than go through this kind of dance anymore. His response is always (predictably!!) "I'm sorry. I made you mad." And he'll even use this as a way to engage me in the same thing again, unless I've really gotten angry and left the scene. I think it's the "I'm sorry" and the implication that I've not been truthful in what I've told him, that really hits another trigger that I don't know so well. I think it's that he hasn't HEARD me - because of the roar of his own head-trip; his needs for someone else to be in charge... make all the decisions... be responsible/accountable. That trigger is one of feeling invisible; that I don't matter; I'm not important in his world - I don't register on his scope of environment as a real person, with real needs... only as the one who serves his needs.

[and that's really not a comfortable space for me... way too much time spent in it, already, in this lifetime; I keep looking and hoping that I'm misreading this.]



* this kind of reminds me of pack animal behavior... always deferring to the alpha. I don't WANT to be; I need someone else to be... alpha once in a while. Take turns. I told him all day yesterday I didn't feel well and didn't really know if I'm coming down with something or if it was something else (like decision-exhaustion or some kind of unconscious processing of what I've been thinking about lately). He didn't acknowledge that I was being serious, truthful...

until I accidentally got my plate tangled up with the skillet handle and dumped a taco on the floor in the "dog-zone". Then, he realized - finally - that I really didn't have it together. It was the truth, that I'd been telling him all day.

And I know that this kind of sub-optimal, physical & cognitive lack of well-being can also be my unconscious telling me - forcing me to deal with, express, find the words for one of those emotional needs. I don't think I have the energy right now to decode a cryptic message. I think Twigs needs to feel that she can trust hubs to take care of her/me... when we need him to... and not have to present a whole legal case to "prove" that it's necessary. And she's also afraid of this, at the same time because of the "careful what you wish for" effect she went through at the hands of her mom.

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