Author Topic: Optimism and the truth  (Read 3043 times)

Dr. Richard Grossman

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Optimism and the truth
« on: December 02, 2011, 10:49:02 AM »
Hi everybody,

Here's an APA Monitor on Psychology summary (Dec., 2011) of a recent study in Nature Neuroscience.


“Born optimists may be able to maintain their rosy outlooks because of a glitch in how they process negative information, according to a study led by a psychologist at University College London.  The researchers gave 19 participants a quiz designed to measure optimism.  They then asked the participants to estimate the likelihood that they would experience a bad event, such as a car theft.  The researchers than told the participants the real likelihood of the event.  Using fMRI, the researchers found that when this news was good—the bad event was less likely than the participants had thought—the participants changed their estimates to be even more positive, and showed correlated activity in their frontal lobe as they made the change.  But when the news was bad, the more optimistic participants didn’t tend to revise their estimates to be more in line with the truth, and the activity in their frontal lobes suggested that they were not processing the bad news as efficiently as their less optimistic peers.  (Nature Neuroscience, Oct. 9)”

Comments?


Richard

teartracks

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Re: Optimism and the truth
« Reply #1 on: December 02, 2011, 02:27:27 PM »
Dr. G.,

Born optimists.  

My father was a pessimist. He swore that if he reached the end of the rainbow, he'd find a basket full of cow dung or worse.  He had experienced scarcity throughout his childhood and except that he and his siblings were skilled hunters, they would have gone hungry often.  Mom on the other hand, though poor, was an optimist and seemingly had no sense of scarcity or lack.  Her parents provided adequately for her and her sisters during childhood.  It would be hard to measure how their backgrounds influenced pessimism/optimism.  

I am an optimist.  On a conscious level, I think the way my brain organizes what it sees as reality (mine) in the world we live in and in the universe at large determines my outlook/optimism. It  tells me that all there is by its very nature is largely hidden from me and others that study and make predictions.  Therefore, the end result is that my guess is as reliable as (not superior to) theirs.  Exploring and examining the nooks and crannies of life  expecting previously hidden things to be revealed is an exciting constant for me, whether good or bad.  That’s how it is now after experiencing hell on earth from 2001 to 2008.    

In mid life and thereafter, the other player, which grew over time to overshadow all else is my faith in God. I can’t explain it fully.  I don’t experience it physiologically, but it is as real as if I could.  I reach out/cry out/consult Him in meditation and prayer throughout my days.  I believe He is sovereign and benevolent.  The opiate of the people?  The gilding of optimism?  I don't know.  There is a saying, I've been rich and I've been poor.  Rich is better.  That's how it is with my faith.  I've gone without it, (even abandoned it once) and I've had it.  Having it is better.  :)

Would I have the same level of optimism if I didn't believe in God?  I don't know.   My dad was a passionate believer in God.  My mom was rather stoic about it.  He was the pessimist.  She the optimist.  Left to guess, I expect genetics and early environment (as often appears to be the case) are the main determinates.  

Speaking of the God influence, I'm remembering your thread several years ago about the 'discovery' of a 'God' gene.  :lol:

tt





BonesMS

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Re: Optimism and the truth
« Reply #2 on: December 02, 2011, 04:16:49 PM »
Interesting.....where does Nature plus Nurture fit in?

Bones
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SilverLining

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Re: Optimism and the truth
« Reply #3 on: December 02, 2011, 06:17:40 PM »
I'm having trouble comprehending the study from the summary.  First the partipants are asked for an estimate of the probability of an event.  Then they are given the "real" statistic.  Then they revise their estimate.   Once they have the real information, why are they re-estimating?   But I can understand where this is going.  The notion of a "processing glitch" makes sense to me.   

BonesMS

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Re: Optimism and the truth
« Reply #4 on: December 02, 2011, 07:08:04 PM »
I guess what confuses me is what if a participant has actually experienced a negative event, e.g. a car theft?  Would that affect their optimism?

Bones
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teartracks

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Re: Optimism and the truth
« Reply #5 on: December 02, 2011, 09:39:23 PM »


Quote
Who would you want to help you in a dangerous situation, a "born optimist" or a realist?

Bofem! :lol:

tt



 

« Last Edit: December 02, 2011, 09:42:05 PM by teartracks »

sKePTiKal

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Re: Optimism and the truth
« Reply #6 on: December 03, 2011, 09:30:18 AM »
Optimist (well, sometimes - I can be in an equally pessimistic mood) checking in...

Where the actual probability of a bad thing happening is higher than the person guessed - and they still don't adjust the belief in the likelihood of this happening to them, personally -- I think this "glitch" is due to the ability some people have of believing "that won't happen to me". Sort of a hold-over from the adolescent belief in invincability/risk-taking. A belief that one is the exception to the rule (or really, really "special").

Now, what I'd like to see - though I don't think I could design the experiment/study - is a measure of how that turned out for the same group of people, over time. How many had their cars stolen? How many didn't? Because then, the next study could also look at how the initial optimism - and sheer luck - reinforced the uncorrect belief of being an exception to the statistics. Or not. Would people change or moderate their scores on a scale of total optimism to total pessimism?

But let's say one scored heavily toward the pessimistic side. What is the change in belief (and overall attitude, over time) with the statistical evidence that (some) bad things really happen less often than one believes? The parts of our brains that mis-recognizes a stick for a snake, will stand down from the adrenalin rush this time... but WON'T ignore other sticks, in other situations that are snaky suspects. That association and response pattern remains. It's the bio-survival instinct... would we say that's more realistic? can it even be qualified as either optimistic or pessimistic?

So, nature vs nurture... I think it would be really hard to separate out the "nature" tendencies, because of how much impact repetition, intense emotional experience, education and prevailing social attitudes - that comes from the whole category defined as nurture - has on a person. I would propose that life experiences could actually turn a "natural" optimist into a raving pessimist... so in the lovely, perfect world of theory... it should be possible to change a pessimist into an optimist. But I believe I've read recently that there isn't any really good reason - no return on investment - for trying to change from one to the other. That optimists aren't really what we'd call "happier" or more content than pessimists. That generalization, probably applies only to the people in the middle of the range... while people at one extreme or the other, my guess, would be both be equally unhappy.

The optimist because life doesn't live up to those extremely high expectations. But the extreme optimist doesn't let go of the expectation after disappointment; the perception that all those happy things will eventually "come to pass" lives on, altered perhaps... but it's still there. Rationalization and self-soothing would be this optimist's best tools.

The pessimist would be equally unhappy, because of the PERCEPTION of being surrounded by affirmations, that life sucks. That stick-snake connection would keep someone jumpy too, wouldn't it? (Altho' they might actually experience a perverse satisfaction that - YEP; they were right this time.) And yes, an extreme pessimist can make even birthday cake seem like an evil plot... something life threatening, too.

Much as neuroscience and the ability to now track activity in the brain intrigues me, I still agree with tt that there is much about life and humans that's unknowable with any real certainty. And like FW, I'd much prefer to rely on someone who's more realistic about the risks involved in an undertaking, than someone who's too preternaturally optimistic.... as long as that risk assessment didn't simply paralyze me and set up additional obstacles to really living life. The mythical "middle way", in other words... which is almost never exactly in the middle... it wanders... just like me!  LOL...
Success is never final, failure is never fatal.

sKePTiKal

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Re: Optimism and the truth
« Reply #7 on: December 03, 2011, 09:53:02 AM »
'morning FW!

That "warning" has kept me from saying exactly the same thing as the person who posted seconds before I did. Most of the time, someone else says it better than I do anyway. My pedantic side or creative side can get carried away so that I either bore someone to death or confuse them!!

And during the times when posting is fast & furious - sometimes literally furious as people are disagreeing vehemently - this warning has also helped me keep up with the direction a thread is taking... and avoid making a situation even worse or fanning the flames.

I do find it fascinating to try to figure out how the computer & software chooses which post to display - and which to send the great maw of cybervoid - when two people post simultaneously. Most of the time this happens to me, I think it's a good thing! I've just been babbling on about things of no great import.

This warning is more useful than the Windows warning: Are you sure you want to delete this file?

If I hadn't wanted to delete it, I wouldn't have pushed DELETE, you wretched bucket of 1s and 0s...
Success is never final, failure is never fatal.

teartracks

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Re: Optimism and the truth
« Reply #8 on: December 03, 2011, 11:47:34 AM »


The nice thing about our examining the impact of pessimism, optimism, and realism on our lives and the lives of others is that it's not a competition.  I'm perfectly happy (optimistic) about the pessimist holding his view.  Truth be known, I'm probably as close to being a realist as I am an optimist.  Maybe I'm an optimistic realist?  

Another thing to consider is what is our interpretation of each.  I bet each of us has a different interpretation/definition in our minds.  For instance, if optimism were strictly defined as 'everything will work out fine', 'don't worry about a thing', then I'm not an optimist.  All I have to do is look a few hundred yards down my street to know that things don't always work out fine, however, that observation doesn't challenge the choice I made to live life with excited expectation.  So in my mind to examine the subject, we'd all have to start from the exact same definitions for it to be anywhere close to accurate.

Optimism to me, for instance, is a choice I've made to live life with excited expectation, that mind frame knows full well that as life for me and others  unfolds, there will be very hard times and very joyful times and everything in between.   I think my outlook would remain the same, if I changed the word optimism to one of my oldest son's made up words that used to crack me up, "dockatunia'.  Call it what you may, my outlook remains the same.  Which may mean that my view is so off track that it's not meaningful to this thread?  Oh my, is that pessimistic?

tt





« Last Edit: December 03, 2011, 11:50:36 AM by teartracks »

Hopalong

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Re: Optimism and the truth
« Reply #9 on: December 03, 2011, 11:31:50 PM »
I'm just grateful when I realize I've spent a few hours thinking pretty cheerful thoughts.

xxoo

Hops
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sunblue

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Re: Optimism and the truth
« Reply #10 on: April 06, 2012, 06:59:53 PM »
I think this is a great topic.  I've struggled with this issue in my family for as long as I can remember.  I have a brother (who was somehow spared any significant consequences of being raised by an N) and sister-in-law who are enternal optimists.  Their opinion of me, I know, is that I am a pessimist.  They have taught their only child that anything is possible in life, you just have to be positive.  I have always argued with them that this is possible for them since they have been spared any tragedies in their lives or challenges most people have (this is true; they have been truly blessed in their lives).  I've argued that when you struggle with clinical depression, other illnesses or a myrid of other issues, it's hard to be an optimist.  They simply refused to accept that others have challenges which would prevent them from having a positive outlook on life.

I've always considered myself a realist, neither an optimist nor pessimist.  But I've also believed that a critical reason people are either optimists or pessimists are due to the circumstances thrown at them in life.  Of course, most people respond, that it's not what happens in your life but how you choose to respond to it that counts.  Easier said than done when people are thrown non-stop with negative circumstances or challenges.  I think part of this issue is that those who have been more blessed than most can't relate to those who haven't had the luck in life they had.    Doesn't optimism, in part, come from some bit of hope, founded in real evidence, that life can get better?

In any event, an important topic to address.

Lupita

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Re: Optimism and the truth
« Reply #11 on: April 10, 2012, 05:45:27 PM »
I think that everything is chemistry and our brain is not the exception. Some chemicals produce anxiety and some produce peacefulness. Some produce hyperactivity and some stillness. Dopamine, serotonin, adrenaline, or the scarcity of any of them. That is in the genes. And optimism and negativism is also depending on those. THE GENES. The genes codify for proteins that increase or reduce production or certain chemicals that affect the mood and the way we see things. Or, have we been in love? When we are reciprocated from the love of our dreams don’t we all feel like in the sky? When that happen we see things different and even inconvenients and bad situations are perceived more positively. Those are effects of endorphins produced by the feelings of love. That is why many people get addicted to new love because they want to feel that sensation. And that is chemical and chemistry is produce by our genes. That is what I have been reading. So, if you do not like my comment, do not kill the messenger.

cat

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Re: Optimism and the truth
« Reply #12 on: April 17, 2012, 12:59:10 PM »
I would say I'm a pessimist.  Plan for the worst and hope for the best outcome.   Living as a single in a world of couples - being self-reliant - this is a way I need to live in order not to have loads of drama.

That said, sometimes the best laid plans - even planning for the worst do not take into account fires, floods, robberies and car thefts.  I guess I would think that pessimism and optimism, in my life, are based on life experiences.  It may be that being an optomist can be scarey.  For instance, for example, you go in for a medical test for some disease - and you believe absolutely positively that you do not have it - internally - how does one process the devastating news when you find out you have it.  If you go into a medical test planning for the worst - hoping for the best - is the emotional drop a far harder thing to experience than if you had gone in with an optomist attitude.  Things that make me go hmmm. . . .

Meh

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Re: Optimism and the truth
« Reply #13 on: April 17, 2012, 04:39:15 PM »

Recently I went to a therapist who's style is "positive psychology". Where I guess basically they build on what is working and what is right and try to expand those areas instead of focusing on what is wrong.

She told me that when she was in school studying psychology she found information that said a person's positive or negative outlook was 50% genetic and she said that means that some people will always have to work harder to "be happy".

I didn't ask her specifically what information she was referring to that said 50% is genetic.

I don't really understand it totally and I wondered if I agree with how she interpreted the meaning of this but that is because I'm always a skeptic.

Here is something else: http://www.med.wisc.edu/quarterly/news/parents-stress-leaves-mark-on-dna-of-children/32279

So is it in the brain at birth, is it in the formation of the brain over time and experience, is it in the genes, how important are the genes. Why is it in the genes? Does nature think that stress is a evolutional advantage?
Some say that we are these organic beings that flex in multiple ways along with our living environment.

I think scientists and drug manufacturers are trying to pinpoint happy and they really can't because they are not looking at it from a system perspective.

There is also information out there that indicates something about how genetic tendencies must be activated by the environment or are impacted by the environment meaning that a person can have a predisposition BUT nurture still is important.
Nature + Nurture
« Last Edit: April 17, 2012, 05:47:49 PM by Starlight »

Meh

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Re: Optimism and the truth
« Reply #14 on: April 17, 2012, 04:59:45 PM »
Bouncing screen. Need to open another. (someone knows how to fix this right?)


Sometimes I think that behaving in an optimistic way does help pave the structure of a better future.

Certainly behaving in a non-optimistic way impacts the future (I think).
It is maybe a little bit of a self fullfilling prophesy.

What is the expression of happy though? Some people have a mannerism that appears "happy" they are bubbly even if what has happened that day wasn't great for them. So maybe some of it just has to do with how they represent themselves.

Cheeriness is body language and speech. Not every function in society calls for this personality type.

Is there some kind of social expectation that we are all supposed to act like cheer leaders all of the time, GO TEAM!!!

Last night I talked with one of my "neighbors", she said that if she ran into an old friend and they said how are you doing?
She would just smile big and lie. "I'm great!"