Revenge Fantasies?

[sKePTiKal]

I like it, Erin! 

But I wonder if an N even can "put themselves in someone else's shoes"? This seems to some bio-emotional-neural mutation in Ns. They simply don't accept the premise that anything exists - or has feelings - outside of themselves. It's as if they don't have the imagination to "pretend" this, at all... or that pretending it "hurts" them - like water on the wicked witch of the west.

[JustKathy]

But I wonder if an N even can "put themselves in someone else's shoes"?

My NM would have no problem putting herself in someone else's shoes, as long as that person was important, wealthy, famous .... someone who would be a "peer." She could easily put herself in Queen Elizabeth's shoes, but never in the shoes a common, working class person, and NEVER in the shoes of a victim. Maybe it would be possible with hypnosis, otherwise, I can't see it happening.

[debkor]

I think N's are aways in *everyone else's shoes* even if they are not ...They Are!   They seem to be everyone else's life but never thier own.  The revenge I had thought I woud have felt good about was N being *knocked out of thier shoes* and it has been done but all I saw was an empty person (rather sad).  The best revenge (for an N) is for You to be Happy and let the N and Nish things they do ...Go.   Sometimes it means letting the person go. 

My children grew up without a dad. Well Bio dad.  They have a step.   I let everything go when they were still babies.  I do believe (me) letting go helped them to have compassion for thier father (athough they choose not to see him) they have no anger or hurt feelings.  It just was, ya know?  He was just a sick guy but did the best he could.....Even if it was not good enough.
That is all he was capable of. 

Revenge ......He lost his chidren because of his own poor choices and my choice.....and now thier choice.   That's sad.

Kinda like he revenged himself.   

He never knew his children.  And BOY ARE THEY GREAT KIDDO'S.........

Deb

[JustKathy]

The best revenge (for an N) is for You to be Happy and let the N and Nish things they do ...Go.

YES! Absolutely. I know my NM loses sleep over me being NC, and knowing that I'm happily living my life without her in it. She has no idea that we've suffered some unemployment and financial difficulties because I don't share that anywhere, at least not anywhere that's public. If she's stalking me online (which I know she is), all of my blog entries, twitter activity, and anything she would be able to find is 100% positive. I make a point of never posting anything negative in a public forum, so for all she knows, I have a great job, an expensive house, and am living a better life than she is, and she is powerless to change that or hurt me in any way. Her head must be exploding.

[sKePTiKal]

They seem to be everyone else's life but never thier own.

I gotta admit you've got a point, Deb. This does seem to be the case, doesn't it? But, I know that it's also true that most of them are incapable of seeing other people as feeling people; there is general tendency to objectify other people -- interacting with them like dolls, with them putting words into the dolls mouths, stimulating reactions, then blaming the "doll" for x, y, & z. The result is the other person simply not feeling "real" to the N, except as a doll - plaything - who only "matters" when they're reinforcing N- delusions of ego, grandeur, and power.

You're also right, that it's a losing proposition for most of us to understand all the hows & whys of how this works. It's much better for us in the long run, to simply let it go. Now, if we could just break that "Let it Go" concept down into a step by step process, and package it -- so that it could be one size fits all, and still allow room to customize parts of it... now THAT would be a scientific, humanitarian break-through!

[mudpuppy]

To me revenge is a dish best served........not at all.
If we are seeking revenge, even in fantasy, we will never be able to forgive.
 If we can't forgive we will never be able to heal.
If we can't heal who is being harmed more, us or the N? That's precisely what they want; us bound up in their system and values, permanently messed up by the effects of their mental problems. They live to make everyone feel just a little more miserable than they do. That's their bizarre idea of "winning".
Besides, revenge is precisely what these clowns feed off of the most; painting themselves as the poor victims of evil monsters who are just what they warned everyone we were all along.
Now, any legitimate avenue for restitution or recompense is fine because it's justice. But revenge isn't justice. In most ways it's the opposite.

mud

P.S. And a Holly Jolly Christmas to one and all.

[sunblue]

Hmmm...I agree with JustKathy...with a twist.  I believe Ns can definitely place themselves (in their own minds anyway) in the shoes of those they believe are worthy of them (the Queen, star athletes, super-wealthy, celebrities, etc.) but never in the shoes of just your average Joe or Jane.....or their children or spouse.  However, even in this, it is limited.  They could put themselves in those shoes as long as the situation fosters their high belief of themselves.....basically, only the good, never the bad.  So, while they could empathize with the super wealthy during the good times, they never could when that super wealthy person takes a public fall.

As far as the "victim" part, my experience that there are times when an N portrays themselves as a victim...those times when the real world gets in their way.  For example, my Nmom got her purse stolen once and she never lets anyone forget it.  However, when anyone else is a victim....even a victim of real abuse and violence as I was......they show such disdain.....as if it's a weakness which they can't tolerate.  So, as usual, for the N, being a victim only applies to them.

I think a lack of real empathy is the trademark telltale sign of a true N.  They simply refuse to do it..whether it is because they are physically incapable of it...or merely choose not to.  One exception.  I've found that they have bushels of empathy for the "Golden Child".  Whatever pain or anxiety or challenge the Golden Child experiences is far worse than any of any other person.  What's more, the N expects everyone to acknowlege the horrible plight of the GC in these circumstances.

Ah yes, the N.  Unable and unwilling to behave like any other human.  Like the Tin Man in the Wizard of Oz, they are badly in need of a heart.

[Guest]

Mud,

I don't agree with you about forgiveness and healing. It depends on definitions, perhaps and just what you might be forgiving. I don't forgive behaviour. I forgive all of them for being what they are, because they can't help it; they can't change and it's not their 'fault'.

I do agree with you about revenge and justice. Revenge is ridiculous. Justice is an ideal, a goal. Doesn't happen too much I think.

[sunblue]

I agree that ideas of revenge, while momentarily satisfying, are not valuable in the long run.  Justice, on the other hand, is the real fantasy of most victims of Ns.  We'd like to think that somewhere, somehow, Ns will get a piece of what they dish out.  I so hope for that but I'm not at all sure it will happen.  There are those who keep talking to me of Karma....what goes around comes around.  I haven't seen it yet and I'm not sure it occurs.

I agree, that while it is incredibly difficult to do, putting Ns aside and focusing on being happy is the best revenge.....It means you are not making the N the focus of your life, of the world, which Narcissism is all about.

[sea storm]

There are lots of kinds of revenge. Surviving the bastards is a good one. Not letting their death rays in is a good one. Breaking their spell and disabling their power is good.  I cursed my exPath and recently heard he had flesh eating disease. At the same time I developed pancreatitus.  This pancreas thing is supposed to be about hanging on to resentment.
Forgiveness is not possible for me. I get extremely anxious and full of shame that I am not a better person and can't forgive. Sometimes I hope God takes care of my revenge fantasiies. There is a backfire component to revenge.I have taken off the curse.

I actually knew someone who visited her mother for Thanksgiving and she dropped valium into her mother's drink. She had just gotten into a serious Lesbian relationship and they visited her deeply religious mom. They were afraid of the mom's reaction. I thought this was very wrong.Messing with someone else like that is dangerous, manipulative and creepy.  This was an old lady.
Forgiving myself for all the bad scenes I lived in like one of those members of a cult is a first step. But forgiveness for the perpetrator is difficult.  At al anon we are encouraged to pray for anyone we hold resentments for. Resentment held onto poison one's soul. Gives the bastards too much power. The physical effects of hanging on to anger and revenge are personally damaging. For me, I think it literally at away at my guts.

I am trying to turn up the volume on the good things in life and make positive changes consciously. It helps until I get grabbed by the past and flung around like a rag doll.

Sea storm

[Meh]

I had em, from my job loss, the revenge fantasy thing,  but they dissipated after a while. Still I got in touch with some darkness of the human spirit. Now I understand a little bit more the "evil" in the world because I have some of that evil too.

It's toxic though to carry that around and it emanates from us. I believe it does more damage to the SELF rather than the other.

It's valid to be angry though. Totally VALID IMO. We are allowed to be angry I say.
I feel it like a passing drought of the soul that maybe lasts even a whole year but still I feel better when my own hatred finally peters out. Wow the barriers between people right. Bad deeds, thoughtless, careless, harmful deeds cause walls and fences and lines and barriers between people.

Boundaries or prisons.....who knows. I guess one can imprison oneself in one's own boundaries but this is just a ramble on....

Good luck with spitting the anger out. There are female goddess archtypes that are very wrathful and have blood dripping from their mouths. They are powerful archetypes meaning that many women identify with on some level with this aspect.
Its an aspect.

[Hopalong]

Great distinction between the toxicity of revenge and the healthfulness of clean anger, Bones.

Everybody got muck.
Everybody got to decide whether to go down in it and play.
Everybody got to try (hard) to decide if the muck'll come off...long after the Ns are gone.

Hops