Voicelessness and Emotional Survival Message Board
Voicelessness and Emotional Survival => Voicelessness and Emotional Survival Message Board => Topic started by: Hopalong on November 08, 2017, 02:22:33 AM
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Well now that I've been slinging relationship advice in all directions (like I actually know), ahem. I may be entering another situation where I learn even more about what I don't know.
There's a nice man I met when his daughter sent him my flyer and said, why don't you hire this person to help in your home office, Dad? He's a widower after a long marriage. Five years older. He's politically my opposite. But for some reason, there was a spark the first time we saw each other. He dragged out three transparently ineffective "job interviews" until he finally confessed he'd rather date me instead. (He found a nice lady--married, mother of two--a mile away whose schedule works better for filing assistance, and anyway...he wants to date me instead. Suited me, since his home office work is boring as HECK. And, he lives 30 minutes from me and I wouldn't have enjoyed doing that commute 2-3 days/week.)
Things are progressing. I'm feeling delight AND anxiety. I joked about getting a whiteboard so we can be sure to write down what we have in common because it's not much! He's tall, handsome and athletic. He's a well-off retired businessman, big house on golf course, football watcher, constant golf (ugh). All the stereotypical things I tell myself I couldn't be happy with. We did watch some football. Yup, still hate it. BUT...he's also intelligent, kind to me, very interested, and his wife was politically like myself. (I said, great, you've had practice!) So far, for the whiteboard we've got: dogs, food, some travel ideas, and a few TV shows we both enjoy. NOT much. My dog liked him a lot, though.
I dunno. Way too early to fantasize much, and I'm totally tiptoeing. I really do think we're so very very different it's an Opposites Attract thing. (I reminded him, you know, it's until six months later when the opposites drive you crazy...). Very hard to know whether my judgement's sound after two such drastically bad choices earlier in my life. I hope so. But I don't have full confidence.
Just thought I'd tell y'all. It's maybe a big thing or maybe a last hurrah before I go back in my little house and shut the door for good on those ideas. But if I can slow him down and we talk more (he's way less verbal and perhaps has done less introspecting) ... and we do continue to feel the spark and maybe more ... who the heck knows? We both laid cards on the table right off the bat. He has made clear that he wants a permanent relationship and I said I do too but for me, that's marriage and he said eek, and I said (as a joke because it was early-date talk) if that ever happens you get a prenup. But I meant it. The economic gulf is just too big and I would insist. First, I couldn't bear for any man (or any man's family) to think I'm after his wallet. Second, he's got grandchildren. (If someone I outlived had the resources to leave me a safer than I am now? Sure, I'd hope for that. Right now, I couldn't afford even a modest retirement home if I were too frail to be on my own.) But I have zero interest in big house, new car, fancy clothes, luxury for its own sake. Basic comfort and peace of mind, absolutely. But not luxury--not only do I not crave it but too much turns me off. Haven't downsized and frugalized all these years for nothing. I hate the $truggle but the simplicity side of it has meaning to me. Quite a lot. So that's the economic contrast.
He asked me (early, pre-attachment), why marriage for you? I said, because I want to love someone that much and I want to be loved that much. It's the ultimate commitment. And he responded well. Or, since he's taking me seriously and seems more eager, I guess he got it. (Or who knows.)
BTW, I really really really would not like living out there. It screams gated community isolation, and is a 30-minute drive from everything I love about where I live. So one day (NOT SOON) there would be a major compromise for somebody. And I'm not sure he'd be willing to make it. He's an engineer and very logical (just exactly the person who needs a poet?). And his own lifestyle (except for the lack of a woman) seems to please him fine. I can't visualize him living in a non-golfy-clubby kind of setting. And to be honest, I just loathe those kinds of developments. If we ever get to that level, it'll be a big challenge to find a compromise. (I can't sell my house, it's in trust for my D. But I could rent it out if we made a new home together.)
Anyhow, that's it so far. (House speculations are cart way way before horse...I need to stay present.) My poor T is going to earn his fee! I'm lucky you guys are here too.
love,
Hops
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Aw, Hops, this made me smile so much! I'm so happy that this is happening, whatever and however it becomes :)
As I am getting older, I am realising that different views, opinions, lifestyle preferences don't matter; it's whether each person can respect the other person's views and choices, if discussion can be kept polite and detached, in a way (where things like politics are concerned). Personally I would find it very difficult to live in someone else's pocket and forever be in agreement with them (would it ever occur? It seems unlikely to me). So the idea of two people, happy in their own lives, used to being on their own but enjoying each other's company, being able to acknowledge their differences but to enjoy the things they do have in common and to have a healthy respect - not feeling the need to belittle or demean, as is sometimes the case when people have differing views - oh my days, that sounds so good!
I don't think we can ever know whether or not someone is a good fit for us until the early rush has subsided a bit and some of the annoying habits have surfaced :) What I do think is probably better in relationships as we get a bit older is that you don't have the demands of young children, a career to develop, elderly parents to take care of and that whole, who am I, what do I want thing. You can just be yourselves and enjoy your time together. I'm excited for you! I think this sounds great :) Does he know that, if things become more serious, he will be known online as Mr Hops? ;) xx
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I'm smiling ear to ear for you, Hops.
I have little advice outside... just have a good time, and don't think too much.
Pay attention to how you feel about this guy. Honor your instincts, and stay busy with all other aspects of your life. Don't let him take all your energy. People are interested in people who have things going on besides them, IME.
Eat, drink, and enjoy the companionship, Hops.
Lighter
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Tupp, thank you. You mentioned respect twice and that really is the secret I think. And just enjoying each other's company, not stressing over the earlier chapters. I like that advice! Respect is everything.
Lighter, you too, much thanks. Paying attention to how I feel and being sure to maintain independence. Both massive keys to sanity and a wiser life than I've led before when it came to relationships.
I may need these reminders -- and new ones -- again, and let me telegraph I welcome all advice plus reminders of what I'm ignoring! (Repetition's the only thing that stands a chance with this brain.)
Gratefully,
Hops
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Man, we're all so different, aren't we? (That's a really good thing IMO).
I couldn't ever in a million years start out the gate talking about marriage - except in general terms. Not at this stage of life. The complications of location are a big one - as you've pointed out. Life long bachelors at this stage of life aren't lonely or looking either. So you automatically know, there's "history" with you both.
I don't have a problem with committed relationships that don't involve marriage or even living together all the time. Such things do exist, depending on the people - and the degree of success/satisfaction vary to a great degree. Trust has to be pretty high in those kinds of arrangements, I would guess. I've lived with all my husbands before marriage... and some others where the relationship didn't progress to that point, for one reason or another.
Remember, I've pretty much been a relationship with someone since I was 16. I was just totally hard-wired for that. So the things I miss... are like folding his laundry, ironing his shirts, making a home for someone in conjunction with myself. There has always been someone to "look after". Mike was probably the best at returning the favor - and looking after me too. Once I learned I had to let him. LOL.
I think my only advice for you Hops - is to enjoy yourself, keep your eyes/ears open, and just see what develops. Don't try to make it fit any pre-determined patterns and stay realistic about what you WANT, what is, and whether there's mutuality of give & take... and just have FUN.
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Thanks, (((Amber))).
I don't have any judgement about living together. It's just that in my perilous old-age situation (if nothing in my life changes) I would be so out of luck if I moved in to a "permanent relationship" with none of the legal protection of marriage...and then the man (or his family) booted me at some point. Thanks, bye now!
I want that ultimate commitment or I'd live with anxiety. It's just the circumstances. I wouldn't want to risk spending my 70s and beyond with someone who didn't demonstrate that depth of reciprocity. I know how great the chances are of me becoming responsible for an older man who's unwell (this man's father, for example, developed Alzheimer's) -- but have to admit I don't have total faith that this sense of responsibility would be reciprocal. It probably would be, if I've chosen well (don't know this man well enough to know--just a hypothetical), but I've seen a lot of abandonment of the old. I HOPE my intuition and brain will gather enough info to assess risks wisely ... but I did that very poorly before.
The other reason is that at this point, I have literally no one else and minimal resources. No relatives to step up for me when I'm too old to step up for myself. So should I get into a committed relationship at this age, I want a marital commitment. It would mean I become family, and don't stay "the girlfriend." It's a way of expressing that I am equally important as the man and am worthy of this. (And it'd be my last chance to get it -- marriage -- right.)
All premature and all hypothetical. But that's how I'm seeing it, to whatever degree I might get to choose my future.
When this man and I talked about marriage it had a lot to do with our age, I think. We both know time is shorter than it used to be. I'm in my late sixties and he in his early seventies. I've had an ex die and he watched his wife die. Mortality is for real (as you know so painfully too) and I guess we were both on the same page about saying right up front, why are we dating. Why are we searching for someone. So we did.
For a woman only a couple notches above poverty, marriage does still offer some greater safety than I can provide myself on my own. I HATE that this is true, but after decades of unequal pay and banging my head on glass ceilings, and then taking on the career cost of elder care with no help from my brother, it just is my reality. If I were in your economic situation, with involved children, I might have no interest in remarrying. Perhaps a well-off man can "take it or leave it" but I have to be honest that for me, security would be part of that choice. Not "gold digging" security, just -- I am a spouse, and I matter. I want to be loved enough that he (He Whoever) would want to give me that feeling. Again, I'm not after a luxurious life. But I want to be loved wholeheartedly. And give Him Whoever the same. If a man suggested, oh I want you to live with me for the rest of my life (because I'm a loyal, affectionate, and very responsible companion) -- I'd feel, gee thanks. And what about the rest of mine?
Or...I'll just wind down my life in this scary path I've been on, however long I can walk it. (I've noticed already that the elder care I do for work is getting harder. My back hurts from heaving walkers in and out of the car and sometimes I wonder, can I do this until age 75? 80? My banker friend tells me she's concerned because my nest egg is so small, and in years to come, my social security won't be enough to keep me afloat if I need to hire any help at all.) A stinking Medicaid nursing home isn't the way I'd like life to end if I'm lucky enough to have another option.
So, for romantic AND self-protective reasons, if I go all in on a long-term relationship, I want a ring on it. :shock:
Hugs
Hops
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Hops, I hear you, and what you've said is refreshingly honest, not only in terms of how you feel about it but accepting the reality of ageing and the financial side of that very real situation. We'd all like to think we can go on indefinitely and that if we do need help it will be freely available but it just isn't the way it goes, as you know from your own experiences of caring for others. Although my situation is different, I know I would only be living with a guy again now if we were married. Not from a moralistic point of view but because I feel now that if I'm going to make the big adjustment that co-habiting would mean to me then I want a big commitment from him as well. So I completely understand where you are coming from on that, and you put it so eloquently, as always.
You and your chap will have some fun times, I am sure, and as things progress I know you will be constantly balancing your head with your heart and keeping in mind the (very many, and often painful) lessons you have learnt in life. We are with you all the way! And we want regular updates :) xx
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Thanks Hops. Your thoughts on this topic help me process mine. I get what you're saying and think it's very sensible. I'm also aware that my financial situation can change in a heartbeat, so many of my projects that I'm taking on are forward in time projections... what can I do NOW, that will help me be secure in the future kind of thing.
That side of the relationship equation is something I can think about - and know myself pretty well on - too. It's easier than the smooshy romantic stuff. That's where I flail about... LOL.
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I'm finding the smooshy stuff a challenge too, but it's fun to be "back in the water", so to speak.
Small example: he's quite attractive and that is lovely. But he hugs too tightly. It's just how he hugs. I was startled at first because I thought he was in the grip of emotion, expressing intense feeling. But nope, it's just how he hugs. Picture a very large vise, clamp, etc. So my task is going to be (so silly to write this out but it took a lot of tension to mentally rehearse it) -- telling him this without hurting his feelings.
His moustache is closely trimmed but the hairs are like little redwood logs. Very scrapey.
I can live with the 'stache but I think the too-tight holding I gotta deal with. Almost gave me a "trapped" feeling. I just need to follow the rules I learned a long time back (just haven't had the occasion for a couple DECADES...eeek!). Like, always start with the underlying positive:
--I love being close to you. I feel safe and snuggly. There's something so comforting about your body.
(and then the thing I'd like to ask for)
--Could you hold me a little less tightly? When you pull me toward you so hard I instinctively pull back. It feels nicer for me when we both can move freely.
What I AM liking: He called me the other night just to say he'd been feeling lonely. It was real and I really liked it that he names it and shares it. I wrote him an email the other day to say how much it helped my cold because he'd written to ask if I felt better, that I'd gone back to sleep "with a smile on my face." He responded that me writing that made HIM smile.
Sounds small and silly, but that he can be even that expressive is a relief. We're talking about an engineer, ex Air Force, conservative guy. For his generation and personality type, he does seem in touch with some feelings. He also mentioned having been to a counselor, and also having participated in a bereavement group (in which he tried to help everybody).
We'll see. One date at a time...
hugs
Hops
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Have you had a chance to ask him not to squeeze so tight yet? I'm wondering how that went.
I ask, because I have known guys that would be a tad sensitive about the question at all - taking it as some sort of "performance critique". Yeah, it's kind of ego-based on their part. It's usually followed by an over-lengthy discussion about how they don't know their own strength, and a simple statement of my claustrophic (and very much triggered memory) feelings. Sometimes a joke gets the point across, but doesn't hit their ego tripwire.
"You're squeezing the stuffing (or pee, as the case may be) right out of me!"
Not that I've had occasion to even need to worry about that in a while. Just vicariously walking myself through some "what-ifs" while following your adventure. I'm really not entirely sure I'm brave enough yet to be "available" that way.
ETA: I think I like IDEA of it... but that's as far as I'm willing to venture.
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Thanks, Amber! I know it seems a silly thing but it's a test of my degree of tact and his of defensiveness. There's no way around it.
Haven't seen him since I got the Huge Cold (still recovering) and though we meet for lunch tomorrow, it'll likely be a week before we...errr... snuggle again.
I do like your phrasing--"Squeezing the stuffing/pee...."
For me it's not just uncomfortable but a tiny bit anxiety inducing. Could this be a sign of dominance? Hmmm. Mutter mutter. I'll find out.
He is a self-confessed perfectionist, which is probably a thing that may look controlling (don't see it so far but I'm hypervigilant for signs) but is actually anxiety based. Or it could be how an engineer operates/sees things. Doesn't matter to me if it's a small issue (like my Dad's near-ocd passion for order, which somehow was never hurtful to anyone else). But if it's a large psychological issue with him in relationships that'd be a concern and it's critical I find out.
All this is why I want to take lots and lots and lots of time, and do dates that open us to different experiences, and see how we each respond in different situations.
Small things do loom big in potential significance so I am working to contain my own anxiety. Two divorces and loss of family don't lend one to feel brave about getting close again! But I would like to if it can be. I carry fear about it because looking back, in my first marriage choice I ignored huge background differences between us, and in my second I ignored psychological red flags. BANNERS.
hugs and thanks for listening to the minutia of my re-entry into this possibility.
Hops
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Minutia is where all the good stuff is, Hops. Heh-heh...
but since you DID notice your reaction, you kinda do need to figure out if it was just you being triggered and questioning... based on past history - or if it really was something you were "reading" from him. Usually, mind-reading isn't a good thing to indulge in (more on that in my thread) but one could look at the range of possibilities, as long as one does follow through: express the concern and the feeling, make the request, and assess the response. Not a good idea to decide on which possibility it was... until you have the direct information.
The possibilities range from the totally innocent (wanting to reassure, convey a sense of security, and pure over-exuberance - and since he's a widower, perhaps conveying this to HIMSELF that you came back) to all the subconscious flags for bad things that we're all experienced amateurs in.
One way to look at the conversation you'll eventually have, is to see how self-aware he is. Being the engineer type in general, doesn't necessarily indicate that he's not aware of his motivations and/or insensitive to other people's responses to him.
All part of the "getting to know you" dance.
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Hops:
I say lay your feelings and needs out there and see what happens. Don't even focus on the what ifs of his reaction over the the hug discussion.
This should be a small thing, and a respectful man who cares should be able to handle it, IME. (And without drama, for Heaven's sake.)
On the other hand, a controlling, rigid person lacking the capacity to feel empathy or withstand (any) criticism might not handle this small thing very well, IME.
Sometimes I think walking on eggshells is muscle memory. You shouldn't have to worry about how someone will respond. You should be able to make a statement and get an adult response that's appropriate.
If his response isn't in line, then you have important information about who this man is. Esp since he's pointing his toes in the honeymoon phase of the relationship. THIS is him on his best behavior, likely.
I like the idea of using humor, but..... I'm unable to muster much when thinking about this situation. Likely bc I don't want my lovely friend to waste time on a king baby.
Oh dear. I realize I'm impatient, and that's my problem, not yours, Hops. Keep having fun, but remember to believe him when he shows you who he is.
Remember not to make any excuses for bad behavior.
Expect the best from him, but don't close your eyes if he offers something else.
He'd be very lucky to have a family member like you to share his life with, IMO. 51% rule, and all of that.
::Nod::.
Lighter
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Thank you so much for the backup! I haven't done this thing in a loooooong time, and successfully very seldom, so the observations and advice really help.
So, lunch was interesting. Felt very happy to see him and he seemed the same. We sat in a booth and talked for two hours. Couple things arose that made me glad I'd seen my T his morning. My main job is to speak up, state needs and wishes, and observe how he responds. I had told my T a while back that I wasn't quite clear on whether B. is dating other people also. Tried asking him once and his answer was confusing. I couldn't tell if he was saying No or changing the subject. So my T asked today, Did you find out if he's still dating? (Not to judge B either way, but that it was something I'd wanted to know. So I gave myself the homework to find out.)
His answer was Yes, I'm still dating but not much. I was surprised but REALLY glad my T had reminded me. Not too upset but it was a warning not to get my fantasy engine going too fast or too far down the line. I am wondering--is he accustomed to being such a decisive businessman that he's "shopping" and the first candidate that fits enough of the qualities he desires, he'd propose asap? I almost think that might be true.
So I said, if you are dating that's healthy, you probably should. And I probably should be too. And mentioned that I'd signed up for a dating website but hadn't checked it in several weeks since I started seeing him. And we left it at that. Hmmm.
So we have a long convo and he mentions again that he's looking for "a wife or a permanent relationship" and that life is getting shorter, and he'd like to find someone as soon as possible. I believe him! I told him I agree about not wasting the "golden years" and that I have the same sense of time passing, but that I also think many conversations and questions and answers are not time wasted. I don't think we were disagreeing, just looking at it from different angles.
One thing is a green flag and its mate a red (or maybe pink) one. He's open and honest, I believe. He's been transparent about his negative side, which is perfectionism. I asked if that was a regret he had for his relationship with his wife and he said yes. Told me an example of how they were painting a room and he allowed her to tape off the floor cloth but not do the painting. "The fun part," I said. He said, "I didn't think she would do it the right way." I said, "Yes, she'd do it the way SHE does it." And we talked about the value of sharing an experience and having fun together, versus having the perfection of the final product. I get the feeling that's why he feels guilt and regret.
I understand some of this. But I do think it's a flag to consider carefully. He may need a meticulous partner who has little of my main weakness (ADD/disorganization) in her character. And, who's a great cook. I'm adequate but no chef, and likely never will be. He mentions it often (cooking and food) and I wonder if, because his wife had been such a great cook, he could ever adapt to being with someone for whom it's a low priority. I'm beginning to think maybe that's a deal breaker. Or perhaps even should be one. It's pretty obvious that it's a big focus of his....and I don't see that as automatically something I must make as important to me as it is to him. He is retired, I am not. I wonder if it's a gender expectation?
The key thing for me is whether his perfectionism is a quirk to learn about and manage lovingly and with humor, or whether his perfectionism expresses itself as a critical spirit. (Which can break the spirit of the one criticized, if it's constant.) I think he's a little obsessive and that maybe a perfectionistic engineer type is not what somebody like me should sign up for.
But it's too soon to know for sure. Quite a challenge to stay steady and continue, but I'd like to.
One other thing I noticed. Today he offered some observations about the warmth in my eyes and how sweet my smile was, and said how now and then something "hard" surfaces that surprises him. He wondered if that has something to do with my past marital experiences or experiences with my daughter (which he asked me to tell him about again today). He actually focused on an insignificant word choice in an email and had a big interpretation about how it showed this "hard" thing. (I went back and looked and that email was full of warm/friendly words as well. I responded, of course I have some sharp points, and they might come out. But I am never abusive. If I were nothing but sweetness I'd be a marshmallow.
I felt uncomfortable telling him about my brother and my daughter, because I thought he was sizing up whether a dysfunctional family should be a deal-breaker. But then again, if he's really evaluating me based on who they are...let it break.
I guess the lunch was both good and bad though I do feel a little deflated. I'm grateful that he's open about his thinking. I do feel myself backing off a bit, and for the first time wary of hurt.
Does this lunch story spark anything for you guys? Anything I'm over-interpreting or missing?
hugs
Hops
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Hopsie, I'll throw in my thoughts for what they are worth (and I will add the disclaimer that I've been single for thirteen years so I'm not a relationship expert!). But.............
The way you are looking at this - both practically and emotionally, acknowledging potential problems whilst recognising what is good - is pretty amazing. It's so easy to fall into the 'my knight in shining armour has arrived' that I think the cool, yet kind, head you are keeping is fantastic so well done on that (I'm glad you've got your T to talk things through with as well).
I think him being open about the fact he's still dating is a good thing. He could easily have lied and likely you'd not have known any different any time soon so I think the fact he is honest with you (even when he's telling you something you might not want to hear) is good, in my opinion. Personally I think 'shopping' for a partner is what we all do and I don't think a businesslike approach to it is necessarily a bad thing. I remember someone I used to be friends with who was going through the arranged marriage process (Indian family). At first I was horrified that this smart, confident, well qualified woman was part of this process, but she explained to me that, because marriage is the aim, everyone is very open and matter of fact about it. Initial contact is a phone call where they discuss main expectations - do you want children, how many? Will the woman work or stay at home? Will they live in their own house or with family? What are your political views? How do you feel about x, y and z. And then based on that, they'd decide whether or not to meet and things would go from there. How much time and heartache does that save? Clear, concise, open conversations about really important things that often become reasons couples divorce. I think that's a good thing. So if he is 'shopping' for a bride, I think that shows he knows what he wants and he doesn't want to waste time waiting for it to come (sign of good self esteem, perhaps?) and to be fair, I think that's what we all do, it's just that most people aren't so upfront about it :)
I see no reason for you not to be dating as well, if you want to. I think the fact that he didn't react negatively to you saying you were still open to dating is good; he's not got a double standard where he thinks it's okay for him but not for you.
I think the fact you can talk for two hours over lunch is a good sign and yes, you are right, lots of conversations and q and a sessions aren't wasted time, and neither is just enjoying time together and hanging out in different environments. I think the most important thing is to enjoy what you do together without the end point becoming the sole focus? Which I know is easier said than done :)
I think his transparency about his negative traits is a good thing. He's aware that he has faults and is open to talking about them and acknowledging where he went wrong. It could be that this is only the tip of the fault iceberg - that's true of anyone - but spending time together, as you say, is the only way to find out. So far is he mostly telling you about his faults rather than doing them around you? I think him telling you about things he's not great with (rather than just showing you by telling you what to do) is a good sign. None of us are perfect and recognising that in ourselves is a good thing.
He may need a meticulous partner and a great cook, Hopsie, but what struck me about that was, what do you need? You are not a wall flower waiting to be asked to dance :) You are an enormously kind, compassionate, intelligent, emotionally accomplished woman who has so much to offer. You've overcome some terribly traumatic events in your life without becoming bitter and resentful (a huge achievement, in my opinion). You've very practically organised your limited finances without doing the damsel in distress thing and just marrying some bloke for his money. You reinvented yourself repeatedly after losing your job in order to keep working and keep looking after yourself - smart, practical, diligent, wise. It would be enormously fortunate for him if he happens to have enough qualities that you desire for you to consider him at all! I think that's the red flag for me, that you aren't focusing on how wonderful you are and how lucky he would be to have you by his side (and I mean that in a kind way, not as a criticism :) ).
I don't think backing off slightly - to give yourself time to think and process how you feel, and work out which way round things are at the moment - is a bad thing. And, yes, that possibility of getting hurt is tough to handle, I think because there's no way around it? If we want to have other people in our lives we run that risk of being hurt. Sometimes we can handle it, sometimes it's too much. I know for me it's a barrier so I get that completely. But personally I think that you need to make an ' I Am Bloody Marvelous' wall in your home and write up on big pieces of paper all the amazing things about you, Hops. You have so many good qualities and you've overcome so much, you blow me away and I truly mean that. I get the not wanting to get hurt or to find yourself trapped in another unpleasant situation but I think maybe spend the next bit of time really getting into your own mind that he would be really lucky to have you and if he has half a brain he won't let something like having to cook his own dinner get in the way of that. Maybe take stock, put those reminders on the wall (I'm serious about that, I think you need to have things printed up in giant capital letters so you can't not notice!) but also have a good think about what you want in a man and how many of your boxes he ticks? He may well be sitting at home now wondering if he's matching up to your expectations :)
I think it's amazing that you're going about this is such an open and honest way; it's very refreshing and brave of you to dip your toe in the water again (I know blokes make all my 'what ifs' bubble up and it's hard). But I think you're going great guns and I hope the next date is a fun filled one that maybe takes the wobble off everything a bit :)
Love Tup xx xx xx
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Sometimes I CAN over-analyze things, putting myself into a kind of uncertain paralysis. Sometimes, it's way better when I just notice how I feel with someone. Are we just talking - telling our stories - and being open with each other? Admitting mistakes, but stretching to grow? And comfortable in that!
Even at more mature ages, people DO grow - and the number of "deal breakers" for a relationship seem to decrease. And in that case, one doesn't want to shop for someone "exactly" like oneself. Mike and I mostly had the important things in common, but not all of them. In some ways he was my opposite. And opposites do attract. And a relationship is like compost... it should nurture growth in the partners. This far down the road, I can say that the things I loved the most about him were precisely the things that drove me the nuttiest.
If I'd had a list of criteria I was matching up, and trying to evaluate him based on that list... I wouldn't have had so much fun, felt so protected and secure, or loved in return. There were surprising things show up in that relationship too. As much as he seemed to "need" me with him all the time - he was my super-bestest supporter to grow autonomy, to grow into myself.
My advice at this point is keep your "list" short & simple. You know what you absolutlely do NOT want to deal with. You probably also know what your major needs are. Focus on those... let yourself enter into conversation and time spent together as completely as possible and pay attention to how you feel. Are you excited to see him? or nervous? relaxed or wary? Are you having fun together and able to take care of each other while telling your stories (this is a good exercise...) or is there an instant critique, analysis and judgement?
What happens if you beg off a date to do something important to you - like writing over the weekend? Or if you want to change up the current routine and do something different?
Just my thoughts at this point, Hops.
I think you're doing fine. Just enjoy the process for now. Let the "filling out of forms" and ticking off boxes happen a lilttle later.
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Hope:
You are right to back away from expectations, and continue shopping relationships, IME.
I had a full body stomach flip when I read this man kinda sorta accused you of having hard spots. Not that any of us should or could be all all soft marshmallows.... it's that he had you in defensive mode. That's familiar to me, and a red flag.
Im also confused about his wanting to be married or not. I thought he didn't want it, but now he says he does?
Stay busy with your own life if you really want more with this man. Don't show all your cards..... I don't trust him right now, mostly bc he left you confused the first time you asked him about dating other people, but.....
You're right to express your feelings then pay attention to his responses. Gather information then decide where to file him.
You don't have to be his ocd twin or a chef or retired with him for this to be right, IMO. If it's workable and you both want it, the differences will work for you. I have the feeling he's feeling interviewed, and maybe it's uncomfortable? Not sure, but you deserve some fun and to pointing tummy flips.
Relax.
Pay attention, and show him what you look like in joyful happily busy mode. Let the interview mode end for a while. Don't be available every time he rings or asks to see you if he asks without notice.
Date other people, and remember to seek your joy and have your interests and activities ongoing as priority. Men like partners with something going on, besides them.
You're so on point and caring. Please don't let that take your attention. Pull up, get some emotional distance on this, and feel free to borrow our filters if needed.
Breath, Hops. You are so bright, and talented, and worthy of a great relationship. Think about what YOU want.
Lighter
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I don't know how to thank all of you enough. Your experience, pragmatism, and observations of different perspectives on the same narrative are just mind-boggling. If there's any example of the cumulative value of the trust and intelligence shared (and increased) on this board...I nominate you!
Tupp, you pointed out two things that were hugely helpful. One, you caught me losing track of my self-esteem under the pressure of a new relationship. Dunno about the Marvellous Me wall :D but thank you for your kind and reinforcing praise of what I've done well. I do underestimate my achievements and spend a bloody awful amount of time catalogueing my weaknesses. Thank you.
The other was the acknowledgement of his honesty. He had to be asked a very direct question before he answered unambiguously...but still, he did. And that is a good thing, regardless of how it ends up for us. I think future conversations will be easier because he made that choice.
Skep, thanks for reminding me not to obsess with the tick-boxes. And to be more present, and confident, while still changing things up while I observe. (I think one thing that accelerated my anxiety was thinking that once we'd started "making out" I thought he was ready to go straight to a kind of domestic dating...making food together, evening with movie, etc.) I am not THAT comfortable defaulting to that all the time because we haven't been in other situations at all together. Biggest thing we've done outside of each other's homes has been a couple dinners out, and a trip to a home store. I know how eager he is to get cozy and begin a semblance of shared life, but I need a lot more exploration before we default to that outline of every date. My T said it's important to see him in a lot of different contexts, keep observing...etc. After he gets back from his Tgiving trip, I'll come up with another kind of activity to propose.
Lighter, you zeroed in on the most problematic thing. I agree about the red flag of him making a negative observation with weak-evidence criticism of "hard spots." It was stupid and unfair and it did make me feel defensive. My biggest doubt about a long-term fit for us is that I believe his perfectionist, engineer personality means (or his comments have revealed...no disrespect to engineers) that he's almost trying to "spec" his ideal future mate. She should cook. She should be sweet all the way through. On the brighter side, when I challenged him on that on the phone later, he said he never should have said that and that he thought it was stupid.
Another positive-negative is that he's willing to answer difficult, challenging questions. Like, when I asked him what his biggest regrets were about his marriage, he acknowledged that his perfectionism hurt her. He gave that example of being unable to let her share in painting a room, except she had his approval to tape down the drop cloth, but not paint. He said he was afraid she wouldn't do it "right." And that she was really upset about it. (Understandably!). What I'm saying is I think he sees this about himself and regrets it (sounds almost OCDish). And, he admits to it. What I worry about it whether it's even within his control.
I also really like your advice to back off, be busy, lighten up, and not be too eager or always available. That shouldn't be a problem because I have trouble adding in two dates a month! After so much time on my own, making adjustments to make room for him is quite difficult. And I do have a lot of other things going on.
I don't know if he feels "interviewed" any more than I do, gotta say. It took him three "interviews" with transparent silly questions before he admitted it wasn't a job interview at all. And he still asks sizing-up questions more than I do.
About the marriage thing. Although the first time (early on) we had that exchange and he said he wanted a "permanent relationship" and I said I did too and for me, that means marriage...he balked a little. But when I gave my reasoning, he immediately seemed to respect it. Now it's a month on and he has changed his terminology. Now he said, "a wife or a permanent partner." I just took that as a sign that he's considering me seriously, and that includes remaining open to the possibility of marriage. I don't think he's manipulating, I think he honestly hadn't thought it through.
One important thing (and a vulnerable one) that he shared over lunch was how inexperienced he is. He was married for 40 years, and faithful. Compared to my round-heeled tally (which I am NOT sharing), there's a big difference. And in a way, that means he's a little naive. I'm touched by that.
We'll see how it goes but I wanted to thank all of you for these potent insights. I don't know how anyone could ever find better help in thinking things through.
With major gratitude,
Hops
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So glad we could help - while learning ourselves - Hops. I think if you don't think of him as "a solution" to anything, but a human being too... it will help alot.
I'm just having one of those epiphany days. My Thanksgiving is coming starting tomorrow and into Saturday... in the big city (my bugaboo). People I barely know - but like - and I'm hoping I don't embarrass anyone, including myself. Social anxiety again.
And I desperately want to have fun. No holds barred fun. Without casualities.
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Would a visit to the museum help while you're there?
Just to drink deeply of the peace and quiet, and art, to restore you amid all that social interaction?
I hope you DO have fun. And hope there are oysters in the stuffing.
xo
Hops
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Hi Hops
I have been reading what you say about this new guy. It is so hard to think clearly when one is so attracted to a man. I think it is important to introduce him to at least one of your friends and see what they think. Friends can be more unbiased about the dynamics going on between the two of you. For instance, is the conversation fifty/fifty? Do his eyes glaze over when he is not the focus of the conversation. Does he hug too tightly? How is he about money? I think this is pretty important. It usually reflects how he would be about sex.
He sounds like a practical shopper who wants a good cook and good mate. Does he understand the qualities that make you rare and wonderful? Your whimsy, insight, humor, deep life experiences including tragedy and joy?
You are a lovely, sensitive woman with tons to offer. He says he is dating others??? Is he nuts? This is such a turn off. That is my view and not everyone feels this way. If I was an angel or a little monkey on your shoulder, I would say to you," Tell this guy to call when he knows what he wants " I think you would say that if life hadn't beaten the crap out of you.
As for the hard glint in your eye? There are probably fifty thousand nuances to you. Hope so. Banshee, hag, goddess, imp, momma bear. gentle guide, intrepid survivor. Maybe you like him because he smells like your old uncle and wears red shirts you kind of bond with him right away. Maybe you haven't heard a good deep male voice for long while and it just plays you like a melting chocolate bar. It sorta sounds like you are accommodating him. He has a great image, wealth, power, a big house and money etc and he likes you. Still, go slow. He sounds a bit boulder booted dear Hopsie. I dont go for playing the field if you meet the one. Being lonely makes a person want to see their soul mate in frogs.
Hope this helps. I have a crummy track record but my parents were married for over forty years. I can just imagine talking to my dad about a guy who was dating other women and sort of juggling them to find the perfect mate for immediate marriage. Since he loved my mom, I think he would consider that I was taking scraps. Or ask to meet his other girl friends.
I am kind of puritanical and I hope my two cents worth is helpful. You are much loved and revered.
Sea
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I forgot to say...., get back to your source and your inner light so that you remember to love yourself. Get the locus of control back to yourself, dear friend. No matter how enthralling he is.
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Sea, I'm pretty blown away by what you've written...thank you.
I have been struggling to get a wise perspective and your advice about letting friends meet him and weigh in is really valuable. If he shies away from doing that, I won't want to continue. He seems oddly naive, as he's only been with one woman for 46 years. And his compulsive engineeritis seems to be driving his "shopping."
But I appreciated so much what you said about seeing and holding on to my own value. It helped. I really do feel pulled back, inside, as in more self protective. And that's a good thing.
He may not mean any harm by his "executive" approach to hunting for a new partner. But it's not leaving a warm impression. He's been out of town and has called twice, so clearly wants to keep the thread alive. But time for a ftf re-evaluation when he gets back, I feel. There's a whole lot of unaware male entitlement. I don't sense any ugly edge to it, just great unawareness. Why would he want to learn what feminism at the core feels like?
Anybody who wants me, though, will have to learn more about that.
I've talked to a few 3D friends about it, and one is as firm as you are about not moving forward if he's still dating others. I think you're both right. He's entitled to "shop" any way that suits him, and I'm equally entitled to protect my heart. She said unless he wants to date me exclusively until we figure it out...I shouldn't date him at all.
One thing I've realized is that if I continue seeing him, one thing needs to change. The reflexive being at each other's homes, to make a meal and watch a movie (and neck) is premature for me. Not scared of it and I've enjoyed these dates. But they do push the intimacy envelope. I've never seen him in any other circumstance except for a few meals out, on our own. I think his rush to re-create domestic life has a lot to do with his loss (he's lost since his wife died). But it also skips over some really important information you can only acquire about someone by being with them in various settings in community.
I'm not puritanical (neither are you) but I am seeing that in a way, I'd like to participate in a slow, moderate-paced courtship kind of thing, before jumping in bed or jumping into a commitment. If he's not up for that (he does seem frantic to find a partner) then we might not be a good match. It may seem old-fashioned and might test his patience, but then again, patience is needed for me.
Not to mention all the other big differences between us. One close friend urges me to not toss him out of my life prematurely. Another is all about strategy to capture him, but she is one who's been unable to be alone.
I DO want a mate if it's possible at this age. I DON'T want to write it off and give it up. But I need to keep my foot on the brake and remember that regardless of age and shriveling opportunities, it still matters to cherish my independence and protect my heart.
So far I detect no contempt or malice. Just cluelessness and an OCD-ish approach. But there is a big gulf, and it remains to be seen whether we can cross it. Would be nice, but then again, there's nothing lonelier than an unhappy marriage.
Thank you again so much, Sea. Your support is so tender and profound.
love to you,
Hops
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Hops I think your approach to this is pretty amazing. It's hard not to rush forward to something we want so badly. I find the idea of someone wanting me so delicious that it does make my brain go fuzzy and I have a really hard time being sensible, but equally enjoying myself and not making everything too serious, too early on (and yes, Sea's idea of him meeting your friends is a good one and something I shall tuck into my 'what if I meet a man one day' envelope).
I'm kind of hoping he turns out to be a good egg, if for no other reason that I feel so strongly that you really deserve someone that makes your heart sing and ticks all of your boxes. But yes, it is necessary to keep in mind your own deal breakers (and, like you, I'm not keen on situations that immediately fall into staying at home - it requires almost no effort and that bothers me). But I think you're going about it all in exactly the right way and it's pretty amazing xx
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I've been feeling so GRATEFUL, for the advice and feedback I've been receiving here (and in a couple cases in 3D). Truly, I am.
Sea's advice got to my heart but EVERY SINGLE ONE of your other comments (including yours, sweet Tupp) has been another beloved arm around my shoulders, another supportive hand on my back, and overall...just this amazing feeling of being cared about.
I cannot thank you enough.
I think this kind of dialogue is cumulative. I've been sitting with it all, this holiday weekend, and something's gotten simplified. Thank god.
I think all I need to say to Mr. B is just whatever is real and true for me. As Lighter says, I don't need to worry about his reactions. As Skep says, I don't need to over-analyse it. As Tupp says, I need to think well of myself regardless. As Lighter says, I need to remember and respect my separate life. As Sea says, the inner light is still shining and I need to keep looking at it.
I mean, do ALL of you know how precious all this is, to an isolated older woman who tends to hide in fear? I LOVE YOU GUYS.
And what I've got now is just this: next time B. and I meet I'm just going to tell the truth. "I feel X about doing XX" or "I am scared about XX" or "I am happy about XX" and let it play out as it will. I'm not in charge of who he is or how he responds. And...he is not an enemy.
love and thanks, heartfelt thanks, to alla-y'all,
Hops
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Hope:
Nothing takes the pressure off like going slow, I ME.
Making out like teenagers is THE BEST. No need to worry about other people if you aren't giving too much if yourself away.
Breath. Have and share your opinions.
Be more interested in your feelings than his.
If it's not right, it's not right.
Remember the AAAs
Assess
Accept
Act
Make not one excuse for bad behavior, and lean into new experience.
You're an interesting, very loyal human being. Remember that always.
Lighter
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Wow.
I'm feeling a little happy shock at the moment.
Went to dinner with B (I invited him to a restaurant to avoid the automatic "domestic dating" thing) and sucked up my courage and told him what had come up for me as concern and/or doubts...and why...and he shared his own...and we listened to each other and it was actually very reassuring.
The main thing I felt was respected. Truly listened to. So now I'm feeling we've taken a big step forward. And I'm totally surprised. (I was prepared to write him off, depending on how he reacted to the things I brought up: the meaning of the sexual harassment tsunami in the news, and secondly, how I'd personally felt when he'd made a sexist remark about waitresses that I found demeaning.)
I ignored eggshells and just told him very openly how racism and sexism are deep deep experiences in my life (sexism personally, racism observed and taken in as a child observer) that are just core to who I am. And I saw no contempt or dismissal or anything like that on his face (and had feared I might). He listened seriously and took it in, I believe.
And Lighter, the necking like teenagers we managed in the parking lot!
I told him I thought knowing each other in different settings was important too, including meeting friends...and he came back to that and said he would like to meet some of my friends, and he also suggested a short trip together (without sex). I liked both of these ideas a lot and now I think we have a direction to go...to see where we might go.
I'm very surprised. But this is feeling better. Even, if I dare say it to myself, good.
xxoo
Hops
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Oh wow, Hops, this does sound good! You were heard :) I think bringing up things that can give rise to what we all know so well in others - defensiveness, accusations of being 'too sensitive', raised eyebrows or that kind of patronising tolerance of indulging someone who's a bit silly - is so vital and having him listen and take things on board - I don't think that could have gone any better! He sounds settled enough in himself to be able to hear another viewpoint without taking it as a criticism and feeling the need to stamp on it and good on you for drawing that line very firmly in the sand - very brave when you knew it could mean you going home alone. This sounds like such a good step in the right direction :)
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Hee hee..... doing a happy dance over here for ya Hops! That's delightful news.
I don't know if it's all women, or just women who've been going through the life process of examining and working on themselves, and then, trying to build something in their lives... but I've noticed a "thing we do" that ultimately - gets in our own way. (Me included, and Holly in a big way right now.) It may not even be relevant to you (and your ability to say what was bothering you is actual proof that you're not stuck in this.)
We take the raw materials of what's in our lives - people included, and all our feelings and rationalizations and intellectual processing - and put it into a mental "virtual world". And then we try to stage-manage it in that imaginary virtual world, re-arrange things, identify what's "missing" - and what's just fine and that we want more of...
and then we measure reality against it and make judgements about it and create dilemmas, and unnecessary, artificial choices - and sometimes internal or interpersonal "conflicts" - to try to suss out what is actually in front of us on our "quest" for fulfillment or a cozy life or flipping the bird at the early life that we're getting revenge on by "living well".
All without directly interacting, in the moment, in our realities. Passive versus active - and always one extreme or the other and nothing less will "do". Meanwhile the virtual world gets baroque-ly embroidered in the most fanciful ways.
And that habit or "way of being" is what is the actual source of many of the real problems we are trying to solve. Direct interaction with the others in our lives and allowing ourselves - insisting of ourselves - that we be somewhere between totally passive and totally active (and in charge) - is really where our "happy zone" is. Popping the bubble of the virtual world, making the commitment to ourselves that we DO matter and what we want from life IS IMPORTANT... and we're not going pretend or BS ourselves into accepting anything less (even though in reality that's always subject to change)... all this creates energy and momentum.
Maybe I don't quite see ALL of that yet. And it may not be relevant at all to your happy news... since its the opposite of what I'm noticing.
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Thanks, Tupp! Your description of some classic reactions to a woman asserting her truth is spot on. Been there, seen/heard that---way too often. In our dinner convo we revisited the thing about him focusing on the "non-sweet" parts of me and I told him, "'Sweet' is not something I aspire to. 'Keep sweet' was Warren Jeffs' first commandment for girls and women. My core values are kindness, compassion and empathy and those will do." He replied with some power in it, "Those are my core values too."
I also said "You know you can't re-engineer me, right? I am who I am, and this is the whole package." The non-defensive, accepting way he reacted felt very good.
I'm really surprised but for now it looks as though we're moving forward. (I also mentioned us not being on the same page yet as he's dating others, as another reason I'm not eager to spend all our time alone in increasing intimacy...and then he said, well since I met you I really haven't been.) That's a bit contradictory so I would still like to get clarity on that. Maybe he was just trying to protect himself by making me think he was still dating. It's not clear but I'm choosing to believe him.
Another thing he said is that he's seeing a counselor, female. He said to her, "She's been divorced twice and is estranged from her daughter." She said, "That's a yellow flag." I said, "I think she's right, and Yellow means go slowly." Then he asked again about my marriages and I told those stories (I understand you can need to re-tell the stories, or it might be a function of his age.)
I think he tends to over-simplify things and look for very binary answers. We're opposite in that sense too. On the other hand, as we talked back and forth, communication was really working.
About his waitress comment, his reply was, "I was being a jerk." I told him how I'd reacted to it (heart sinking, really backing off inside). He said he was going to be thinking about that.
And Amber, this is BRILLIANT.
We take the raw materials of what's in our lives - people included, and all our feelings and rationalizations and intellectual processing - and put it into a mental "virtual world". And then we try to stage-manage it in that imaginary virtual world, re-arrange things, identify what's "missing" - and what's just fine and that we want more of...
and then we measure reality against it and make judgements about it and create dilemmas, and unnecessary, artificial choices - and sometimes internal or interpersonal "conflicts" - to try to suss out what is actually in front of us on our "quest" for fulfillment or a cozy life or flipping the bird at the early life that we're getting revenge on by "living well".
All without directly interacting, in the moment, in our realities. Passive versus active - and always one extreme or the other and nothing less will "do". Meanwhile the virtual world gets baroque-ly embroidered in the most fanciful ways.
And that habit or "way of being" is what is the actual source of many of the real problems we are trying to solve. Direct interaction with the others in our lives and allowing ourselves - insisting of ourselves - that we be somewhere between totally passive and totally active (and in charge) - is really where our "happy zone" is. Popping the bubble of the virtual world, making the commitment to ourselves that we DO matter and what we want from life IS IMPORTANT... and we're not going pretend or BS ourselves into accepting anything less (even though in reality that's always subject to change)... all this creates energy and momentum.
So that quiet introvert observing the dance and the dancers has put together THIS. While this extrovert was too busy blabbing to do the same. Thank you.
love
Hops
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Holly and I prefer "extroverted introverts", LOL. Her more so than me. I'm more your basic introvert.
No brilliance involved, Hops - just the combination of recent experiences, dealing with the noise/people storm in my head, getting quiet again... and letting the real observations float up to the surface. I need those more than I need regular social activity.
I should be doing something, but since the first half of my week looks to be busy - and I'm still easily frazzled since I haven't gotten ENOUGH R&R yet - the resentment about my time being scheduled already is setting in and well - I don't HAVE to do a blessed thing today if that's what feels good. And it does.
Tonight is "men in kilts" night again - Outlander's new episode - and I'll probably need to build a fire again tonight. Holly leaves tomorrow morning sometime for 2 weeks crewing a sailboat to Florida. I officially buy the land tomorrow morning and have a lot of errands on my list. Hopefully get one jeep inspected Tues... and down to the little cabin to pay guy for work he's done that will let me list the place after the holidays. THEN, more downtime. LOL.
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Hops:
I think going slow gives you both time to really see each other. If he's patient and level while waiting, that's a good sign, IME.
I hope you continue meeting new people, bc you aren't married. You're responsible for finding people you connect with if you really want connections, IME.
Coffee, lunches, and texts with other guys are allowed.
:: Nodding::
You might meet a really great guy while B is a really good guy, kwim?
I'm happy for you! Have fun;. )
Lighter
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Something interesting happening with B.
We had a deep talk two dates ago that pushed us forward. All that straight talk, and he responded by declaring he felt even closer to me.
So when I saw him again I was feeling ready for the connection to continue growing, but I sensed he was pulling away. He's noticed I noticed, and called to explain he'd been feeling "off or something."
Intuition isn't everything and I'm not feeling that it has to resolve one way or another. My GUESS is that now that he knows some of my expectations (no quick casual comfort for me, since it's just not what I'm looking for at this point) and agreed to them so quickly, the reality of it is settling in.
Like...it's Saturday and we talked this morning, but he was distant. So I figured he needs space, might be reacting to the holidays + the grief process (it's been not quite two years since he lost his wife). And at dinner he'd also told me his daughter's marriage is in trouble, and a sad story about a juvenile boy he'd tried to help in life who wound up rebuffing his efforts.
Long story shorter he may be dealing with depression. The behavior though, is pretty unsteady. He's gone from feeling "fantastic" about us to acting remote and going back to more superficial talk. Then later he left a message and explained he would've invited me out and should have done it this morning, but ... didn't. So it was too late for me to leap in the car and go out there to keep him company.
I understand and am not ditching, but I'm feeling some concern. He's been pressing hard about his desire to "find a permanent partner asap" yet now that we're taking some steps toward building something that could possibly become that...in time...he's wobbling.
Very understandable that it's a back and forth process. And I'm concerned but not freaked. Just going to continue working on my own life and connect with him if it works.
But I'm wondering how in touch with himself, his needs and his actual capacity to form relationship he is. He's been "large and in charge" for so long, I'm not sure he can contain his desire to control things. And that's not something that's going to work for me.
I hope we can continue to communicate and compromise our way into something healthy. But I'm doubly glad I've had my foot on the brake, and have to some degree been containing my emotions. I no longer believe in throwing my heart over the bar because it backfired so much earlier in my life.
I am genuinely trying to lead with my brain and let my heart take whatever time it needs to know what's going to be right. Hope he can hang in there with that kind of process, but there's doubt.
That's it for now...I feel so lucky to have you all to write it out to. Thank you!
hugs
Hops
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So, Hops... it's been 2 years since Mike passed. And he started withdrawing from me, almost 2 years before that. From my perspective - realizing that B & I are likely pretty different - every time I think I might "get back on the horse" and be more than friends with one of my "useful brothers" or some stranger I have yet to meet - something in me panics. And I back off like a flash... strewing excuses all along the way.
It's not like I haven't had many relationships with different types of guys... or that I fear intimacy... or even sex (altho' I am sorta conflicted there, still). So the only way I've been able to explain this to myself is that I still FEEL like I have a relationship with Mike. I'm unconsciously looking for, and reacting to echoes of Mike in other guys. That's my OCD I guess... trying to recover what I lost, that was so cozy and comfortable.
At the same time, my brain is fully aware that any new relationship is going to be with a completely different person - with a different balance sheet of characteristics. And that part of me is really intrigued by that opportunity and even the "danger" - maybe challenge is a better word - of taking that risk of things maybe not working out. After all, I can look back and honestly say there were things Mike could've been better at in the relationship, things he shouldn't have tried to do at all - but did repeatedly after I asked him to stop, etc. But it was the things he DID really well - and that no one else in my experience did AS well - that I'm attached to. Seeking.
It's just getting past that feeling that I'm looking for Mike again - maintaining a relationship with him in my emotional imagination - that keeps my public sign flipped to "not available", instead of "available".
No earthly idea if B could be going through something similar, but thought you might gain something from this... to explain what's going on for yourself. You already picked a gentle action-path that respects his uncertainty right now. It's a really good choice.
[I have no idea how or if, I'll move past this place - I've been too busy IRL to want to clutter it up with emotional stuff. But I still come face to face with the less comfortable side of solitude on a regular basis. So I expect at some point I will. No rush. :D ]
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Hops:
Sometimes when I read your posts I get a twinge of discomfort...... about... maybe this guy possibly, certainly not likely, putting out a cattle call for women to stand on their heads auditioning for a "part" he has no intention to fill.
Now, that's not a warning, or my intuition. That's one possible negative interpretation of a set of facts I view through, admittedly, very jaded/guarded goggles based on unfortunate past real life experiences.... one friend shot herself in the chest over a man in similar circumstances. Like you, she was very smart, capable, and worthy. The guy was freshly widowed, and playing the field. Some widowed men aren't sweet, lonely dears who need another soul mate, IME. Some are flawed, selfish, N's who think of women as apples to be plucked at will, just as they viewed women before they were married, and widowed, kwim?
So... whew..... I'm putting this out there just in case.... so it's on your radar, even if it's the farthest thing from the truth. At least you have access to my filter, even if they're useless, and utterly wrong.
Lighter
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Thanks, Amber.
It's helpful to read how another widowed person is reacting to new relationship notions.
Thing is though, B has pursued me very clearly and with enthusiasm. I do believe grief-at-holiday could be part of his sudden chilly feet, that makes perfect sense.
Right now I'm thinking it's maybe that plus a combo of things--or might not be one of these at all.
--frustration with my not being available for instant connection when he wants it. (He always asks, if I take an hour to return a call--"Did you have your ringer off again?". I have told him about 3 times that because two of my elders call me at any time of day or night and I want privacy from that, I leave ringers off. But I do return calls as soon as I hear a message. Ironically, he doesn't reply to my emails. So either way, there's a communication issue.)
--a sudden "turn-off" or loss of attraction (it happens)
--we have a date for him to meet friends of mine Tuesday, because we'd talked about doing that as a healthy next step. I've known quite a few men who express ambivalence about taking that significant step by behaving differently or less warmly.
--he still has some connection going with a different person that I don't know about (dunno, but he is driven to not be alone and has taken a very methodical approach to finding a partner)
I'm coping with this okay, because I don't feel panic or desperation to be certain he and I are moving all the way forward. If it's not reciprocal or positive or healthy, I do not want it.
But today, anyway, I am also feeling some frustration about his moves. I know he's relatively inexperienced in relationships. But pretending, avoiding, and evading are not going to help.
What I'm resisting in myself is becoming angry. It's not dire, but I do feel a bit jerked around right now.
xo
Hops
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I can understand feeling a bit angry. Perhaps if you can talk about that without BEING angry... he'll be more forthcoming about what he's going through right now. The other option, would be to simply bring up his hesitancy and what you're reading as uncertainty or something else. Ask him to clarify, best he can, how he feels and what he's going through.
That should give you a better "read" on things - whether he's honest about it or confused in his feelings or whatever else the case might be. But it's straightforward and not hostile or challenging. Obviously, that's a private conversation - LOL. But I do think it's good to introduce him to your friends in a relaxed setting. I hope that's enjoyable for you both.
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Hopsie, there's a book you recommended to me a few years back (which I've forgotten the name of) but it's about relationships and in it the author talks about 'the switch' - a time in a relationship where one person (usually the one who has initiated and done the chasing) cools back a bit because they're at the point where things will change from dating to being in 'a relationship' and the brakes go on for a while. Sometimes it means they call it off, sometimes it means they come back certain this is what they want. But she describes it as a very normal part of a relationship and advises doing what you're doing - carrying on with your own stuff and just giving them some space. I think keep in mind what you want because it feels more like you're waiting for him to decide what he wants? Can you 'just' date without any other expectations? Or do you feel too into him to be able to do that? I think you can second guess the whys and wherefores forever (and never know for sure!) Do you want to get married again? Or is this more his drive to find a new partner? Would you be happy with 'single' but a good friend/companion/someone to go to the cinema with type situation? I think maybe put him to one side of your mind for a bit and focus on what it is you want - regardless of whether or not it's him you want it with - because it kind of reads a little like he's been setting the pace? I might be misreading it? But I feel like I'm hearing a lot of him and not so much of you? I think maybe Hops needs to concentrate on Hops for a short while? Which I know is not as easy as it sounds! (And I mean all of that in a nice way and not as a criticism :) ) xx
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Thank you both so VERY much.
Tupp, your post helped me articuate something. No, I am not just looking for a casual companion. I have quite a few friends, female, who'll keep me company for a movie or play or simple lunch or drinks connection. I value them enormously and am content with that. I am actually rich in that.
I do want a serious lifelong partnership with a man, and marriage. I am not looking for "company" but for "partner."
So that's clarifying.
PR, thank you. That was a calm and realistic take and it really helped. I think your insight that it's okay to FEEL a bit angry without BEING (acting out) anger is very wise. Plus, if the connection allows, just asking...and listening... is so sane.
What I value most, after my history, is reality. I'm willing to deal with what is, and if someone else doesn't really know what is real for them...then their confusion or ambivalence is a part of reality I get to deal with and make choices about.
I hope I get good news but then again, even bad news is good news if it connects me more firmly with reality.
Thank you.
I feel strengthened, no small thanks to you guys. LARGE thanks.
xxxooo gratefully,
Hops
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Lighter, thank you.
I know you posited one of the more brutal possibilities, but I want to thank you for doing that. Because it IS a possibility.
He's been an intense, competitive businessperson his whole life, and I think ruthlessness is one part of that. I do think one possibility is that he's doing exactly what you say.
I hope it's not so but I'm entirely ready to figure out that may be it. He was SO unnaturally methodical during the "job interviews" that I honestly would not be surprised if the truth were he's still doing it. His statements about "not dating anyone since I met you" -- have come only because I asked.
And I wouldn't say he has volunteered that clarity. And though I generally feel he's honest, I also know I'm capable of hearing that because I want to.
I can't convict him about that behavior at this point because I genuinely don't know. But the scenario you describe is one of the possibilities in reality.
All the more reason to find a balance between vulnerability and guarding my heart. And I do have more faith than I ever did previously in my life, that I have discovered ways to do that better.
Thanks for the reminder to be on balance, in my own dojo. I really appreciate it.
hugs
Hops
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B called today to confirm our plans, twice this week, to meet friends of mine.
Glad he didn't bail but at the same time, noticed that I felt drained by the time he was in touch.
Just not sure how much of the game I'm up for these days. Felt kind of detached and almost sour after speaking to him.
We've got many rivers to cross and though he may not realize it, his inconsistency (emotionally) recently had the effect of making me wanna RUN.
Huh. Pondering....
Hops
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The thing about solitude... is that no one else is allowed to have an agenda. When we become accustomed to solitude... and our own agendas... we don't want any interruptions. Because of other people's needs... their agendas. It's an effort to make room for that. And maybe a joy too?
Just postulating.
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It's good postulation.
For me, it's both resentment and resistance to the effort required, even though I think it's what I want. (Not B necessarily, don't know him well enough.) But I have a hard time inviting him here, resent having to tidy up. It's stupid, I know.
I think beneath the resistance is anxiety. It's quite scary and difficult to contain my anxious fantasies about his nature.
I'm trying to listen to instinct as his personality unfolds. I do not know what was happening with him recently but do know that it created unease. The "perfectionism" he's mentioned more than once as a core trait...I don't know how to integrate that into a vision of a happy relationship.
I fear he's on honeymoon manners. But I don't know for sure. If that withdrawal is as bad as he gets and he quickly gets through it, maybe I'm exaggerating. But...I worry about my own capacity to make good judgments in this part of life.
I'm talking myself through it but am surprised at how draining it is. Not sure it should feel that way.
Confused, confused. Will know more in a week, as two evenings with my friends are coming up. But I'm concerned about my hopes for a future partner clouding my sense.
Hops
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I'll just yammer on....
I am positive that my past hurts and romantic calamities are also a cue for some of the anxiety I'm feeling.
All this stuff is really, really reinforcing my desire to go sloooooooowly with him (or with anyone that I were dating). He is impatient, eager to get on to bed, to domestic shared life. I feel sympathy for him because he is lonely, and I know how excruciating that can be.
But dating me for two months just doesn't get me into bed or anchored to a shared domestic routine. Unfortunately (for him or anyone) -- my slim chances of finding a new mate are in great contrast to modern dating models (in which you're lucky if you can postpone sex to your second date, much less to your second month).
I'm sooooooo socially left and liberal that it might seem ironic. I was a round-heeled 60s woman, for sure, in my youth. But over my life (and the 20 years of thinking hard since my second divorce) the gradual, older-school approach to dating I was raised with, now makes a lot more sense to me.
A way to get to know someone more gently and slowly, over time, and in many different contexts, not just being alone together. (I LIKE sex and look forward to it becoming part of my life again. And the chemistry with B so far is good.) But I am willing to wait, and wait, and wait...for the moment when my concerns are allayed and everything inside lines up saying Yes. This man is the right person for me to trust, enjoy, and celebrate lowering my guard with. Then, va-voom.
I hope, should B actually be a right person for me to continue with, that he'll understand that too. He is a physical, athletic man (I do aerobic reading) and I am sure that the reassurance of renewed sex in his life is very, very important to him. I don't disapprove of that at all and in my past, my compassion and empathy for whatever a man is feeling would lead me to put their desires first.
I just hope that he can make that sacrifice. What I know about myself is that for me, sex is more deep than simply playful, so I'm making a deep commitment when I make that decision.
I was struck by a comment from my beloved, trusted male T. He said, well the best time to learn a lot more about what's in a man's heart is after sex. They feel relaxed and open then, and that's when they're likely to show you who they really are.
What hit me was that even he was thinking that my hesitation about getting into bed before I'm ready could or should be set aside. He has a point about intimacy (emotional) being connected to being physically intimate. Of course.
But what about my realization that slow courtship is safer and healthier for me?
Hmmmpghgjffkkgsgmgamlff....
Hops
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Hops, you have just explained exactly how I feel about sex. I haven't been with a man - not even kissed - for nearly ten years now. I do have some hang ups with sex because of my abuse issues but when I'm in a good place, with the right person, I enjoy it and yes, I am hoping that one day I will meet someone that I really connect with and want to be with. Because I do think, when you've been through a lot of hurt and deep soul searching and a lot of time on your own and endured the loneliness and the aching to be held and really missed having emotional intimacy with someone - the sort where you know what they're thinking without having to ask and you can finish each other's sentences - you do get to a point where it really has to be good and special and feel right. And yep, for me, that would mean taking it slowly and really spending time getting to know someone. For me it's about feeling safe. I don't want to have sex with a man I can't be emotionally honest with and who isn't able to cope with me when I'm going through one of my bad spots. I don't want to have to hide the aspects of my personality I'm not keen on or worry he'll go off me when he sees my wobbly belly. I want to be past all that and know he's okay with it all and just feel like I can let go without being frightened. So yes, I completely understand your need to take things slowly and you should, absolutely, go at a pace that feels good for you. I think it's really important to get through these wobbly stages - with or without him, depending on how it goes - so that you feel really comfortable with the way the two of you are. And do you want a guy that can only show you what's in his heart after you've slept with him? Personally I want to know what's in there before. I don't agree with your T on this one (with the greatest of respect!).
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Tupp, you GET it.
Thank you, so much.
What's funny is how this relates to your thread...I just posted a lot of thoughts about judging.
The only thing different for me now is how much I'd JUDGE men who were in a hurry before. Now I'm a lot more empathetic. I see him as a vital attractive older man who's very eager to reassure himself that he can continue to be vital with a woman. I get it, and I don't see anything wrong with him wanting that.
Occurs to me that something really nice I could give him would be to tell him, very genuinely, that I recognize he is holding back for my sake, and that it's not always easy for him. And that I deeply appreciate it. Nothing "sacrificial" on either part, but just that it'd be a chance for me to express compassion for his frustration, but without changing my own decision about what works for me.
Hmmm! Might try that out this evening, in fact.
Hugs,
Hops
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PS - I don't agree with my dear T on that, either. Though he's right about how many men feel...he was skipping over how I feel. I think I will talk with him about that and see how he responds.
One of my recurring thoughts, despite how much I value him, is wondering whether I might benefit from a female T. If I could find an experienced, wise, savvy woman...it'd be wonderful. I may check around. I've been feeling a little "stuck" with him but it's terribly hard to face. Because he is unquestionably my "safe space."
Many years ago, a male T urged me to kind of "hurry up and marry" my second husband, which turned out to be a disaster. The same kind of thing had happened...the T urged me to overlook my own anxiety/intuition about the fiance who was pressuring me (not for sex in this case, that was fine...but to set a date since he was pressuring me to marry). The marriage was a travesty and terribly destructive.
(Turned out that T was uncomfortable with me saying I was sexually active because he was religious and my sexual freedom made him uncomfortable. He admitted this, after I came back from my honeymoon shattered, asking him why he told me to go ahead and marry when I'd told him I felt I needed more time?)
I don't know what motivated my current T to suggest that after-sex would be the best time to get to know B. I am positive he would never consciously want to recommend anything harmful. (And he didn't push it at all once I indicated, No.)
But I do think I need to tell him this story about my long-ago T. Whew.
xo
Hops
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It is funny how there are similarities between the two threads, Hops. And I agree with your idea to tell him you appreciate him taking his time for your sake - acknowledges him without compromising you, as you say.
On the subject of female T's - I had two really, really good ladies and they gave me a lot of the mothering I never had. That helped me hugely, to have a wise sage offering advice and non-judgemental support. For me a male T wouldn't have worked; my issues with men would have just frozen me up. But I have seen a complementary therapist for years, on and off, and he is around the same age as my step-dad and of a similar build. I've seen him about physical problems so shorter appointments and no soul searching, but he's a very kind, empathetic, well educated man and he's been a great balm as well. So yes, perhaps some sessions with a different T would help. It would be interesting to hear whether a lady T would think the same as the male Ts have when it comes to your relationships. But I think the approach you're taking is the right one.
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Hops:
I'm repeating this....
Making out like teenagers is the most fun.
Also, a man who respects your needs and time table is a man who cares about your feelings as much as his own.
What is his idea if relationship at this point, if not committed loving sharing of a life together? I really want that answer....and what would your place be if not family....in his opinion?
::Going back to read first posts after this post::.
I'm glad you're mindful of not making excuses for this guy. Lean into Discovery and acceptance of what you find, Hops. I know there's expectation, but try to put it down as you can.
A nice man won't pressure you about sex, IME. Of course, anyone can be good for a certain amount of time. Draw back, get some emotional distance, and notice if he cares about how
You
Feel.
Is he asking questions? Are his eyes twinkling when you speak? Is he listening or waiting to speak? Is he planning dates YOU enjoy? Does he care enough to make sure you're comfortable, and happy? Or does he always seem to be working his own agenda as priority?
I notice that nice people are kind, even when they don't get or hear what they want from us.
Does he use humor when he's frustrated? Does he want you to meet his peeps?
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Hops, I was going to read all the new posts before opening my mouth because I'm only capable of the cryptic right now (big, vague, fuzzy stuff rolling through my head that I can't "say" yet) - but -
I'm going to pass on something I told Holly, who was laying out all her thoughts/feelings/hopes/dreams etc re: a relationship to me. Actually it just fell out of my mouth, without forethought:
Don't judge yourself by HIS values/standards.
I *think* this is where a lot of the anxiety comes from about how our house looks, how we look/act during a date, and even how we think about the other person and being with them. And I think this is one way we tangle ourselves up about relationships.
It's a self-defense mechanism we learned thanks to our FOO. We were always trying to stay between the lines of THEIR expectations/values - even when it was never predictable - and that's how we learned to relate to "close relationships with other people". God knows, it's something I do without being conscious of it most of the time... and I *think* (presume, assume) we crave being able to "let our hair down" and just drop all that. I'm not entirely sure guys understand that "need" in women - nor what it looks like in actions and assurances.
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Thanks, y'all!
I'm amazed to report that it's going really well. He met two sets of friends this week and they all liked him a lot. Good impression all around. He really enjoyed it and it felt good to be out together. He'll introduce me to someone (I told him it's his turn) but he's only been living here two 1/2 years, and much of the first year was the illness and death of his wife. So he's befriended a few neighbors. His daughter lives here but he hasn't mentioned that meet yet and I appreciate that. He should hold off.
I did make that statement to him about truly appreciating the fact that he's willing to be patient with me about intimacy and it seemed fine. He said the night he seemed withdrawn he was feeling the need for more touch and closeness. I told him to just ask for a hug and explained (in a gentle way) that he needs to not have me read his mind, but speak. He did, and I've been hugging, doing back scratches and the passing shoulder rub and he talks about it making him happy. I was at his place this evening and he went to shower before we went to my friends'. He made an odd comment but I understood he meant it positively "I feel so comfortable with you that it occurred to me I could have just walked out here in my underwear...." So I said, shades of Harvey Weinstein!
I guess he can't help being a little one-track about this, but he's not physically pressuring me. He's a little bit controlling but so far I'm not feeling it's a threatening thing--more mildly neurotic/codependent. I'm pretty comfortable speaking up so far.
When he kissed me good night I informed him that his mustache feels like little redwood logs that have been trimmed with a chainsaw, and that cracked him up.
We're not having heavy talks about relationship or future right now and I'm glad, that was an intense way to start out (but normal at our ages, likely). We seem to have moved forward into real relationship, and it's only been two months. I'd like to just enjoy him and seek out new experiences with him for a time.
He's got some health issues I wasn't fully aware of so there may be some limits, but that's okay.
He expressed bewilderment when I said I was tired (concern really) but I felt defensive about it. (My problem to fix.) I am not retired yet and I don't think he gets how tiring my work can be with the old folks, even though it's PT. And though I didn't say so, it's quite an effort to work a new person into my life, even though I'm happy I am.
Right now it's feeling good and we're doing well. He has some fussiness that could make me roll my eyes if I were rude, but overall he's sweet and easy to be around. I tend to run fast, mentally, and he's sloooooooow. He'll tell a story in 30 minutes that would take me 10, but difference is part of the appeal. He may calm me down.
All in all, a good week and unexpectedly positive! (I'll keep crunching away at various fears and worries with you guys, and I know it'll be okay.)
lots of love and thanks,
Hops
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Lighter, did I blow past your telling me not to judge myself by HIS standards?
I just re-read my post and think I'm being awfully, awfully accomodating. Still like him, still continuing...
But in honesty his comment about feeling so comfortable he thought he could walk out in his underwear DID make me uncomfortable. Not fearful. Just...why did you have to say that, why do you fixate on that?
Hmmm. It was just weird. He didn't push anything but there's something there. I am hopeful, honestly, that this is not a dark problem. Just something out of sync.
Guess I'll find out in time....
Hops
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That was me, Hops, with the standards comment.
The underwear comment I understand completely; he's truly sharing that realization he had that HE wouldn't feel awkward about it in the context of how he's seeing the relationship. No more; no less. And it was supposed to be funny. Is he comfortable telling jokes? If not, it might explain what felt "off" about it. (You said he was an engineer - IME, a lot of guys in that field have some aspie personality characteristics, even if they're NOT aspies. I'm horrible at telling jokes.)
Some guys are terribly self-conscious about their bodies - just like we are - especially at this age. But it's an assumption to think he was fixating on it. A little mind-reading; that reflex of always looking for ulterior motive in everything maybe?
And then, there is your reaction to the incident/statement. Two separate things. Advice: if you're going to look at things in this kind of close-up detail... you've got to keep things very well sorted/separated. That helped me sort out the Ronnie issue... and where I was reading way too much into his words... and then let myself weave a whole story out of that in my mind... which engaged the feelings I didn't realize were there... and well, I was off to the races. LOL.
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Hops:
Reading your post did seem chucked full of accommodation on your part. I recognize it as something I've done....my comfort zone for sure. I have to say that I was working hard to remedy it in my late 30's, while considering the man I had children with, and did very well for 5 months. Once we became intimate/engaged at that point, I lost my bearings. It was unfamiliar territory. Giving in to Controllers is easier for those who aren't interested in controlling, IME. We can mistake fluid boundaries for identity as caring, giving, devoted wonderful helpmate peacekeeper spirit. And the controller keeps asking for things, insisting things will be fine IF we'd just ( insert the never ending list of things we must do or change,IME of course.)
Why do we take on eventual sole responsibility for keeping things ok.....so many reasons, but just NO.
Once we begin making excuses and menuevering around the truth to create OKness in relationship..... we're lost, IME.
I'm saying that you are as important as this man, and standing your ground, stating your wishes, and requiring comfort in relationship, for yourself, is a priority you can make clear, and train him I to, even if he's not familiar or practiced at it.
Equals, not you mothering and enabling. Taking turns getting your way, not developing habits of accommodation for this man who lost his wife and has needs and health issues and the need to trample boundaries to have what he feels is important....what he wants.
I would re write that if I had time, but there's no time. Consider it perspective. You're good at dealing with difficult people. Perhaps not so good at putting yourself first, and boundary transgressions always start small in my experience. Perhaps not consciously, but the first tiny push typically leads to larger and larger and more till we're wondering how we got to that familiar place. Again.
Just pay attention to any excuses you make for him. Pay attention to the accomodations you make. No DIM thinking....denial, ignoring or minimization this time.
Eyes wide, eager and ready to accept what is real up front. Ask for equality.
Don't ask, don't get, Hops. You are so worthy of reciprocity and the care you extend.
:: Nodding emphatically::..
Lighter
You can deliver all this information with humor and ease, even if he isn't capable of receiving with Grace. Just give him the chance to figure it out. He may surprise both of you. It happened that way for my mother in her second marriage, and my SF adored her Moxy. He respected her ability to stand up for herself, but she started with small boundary transgressions FIRST to get to equality and joy. Does that make sense?
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Wowsers. Thank you so MUCH.
Lighter, this is good, wise warning...watching those little boundary issues and not letting a pattern begin. It's the frog-in-pot-of-cold-water thing, with accomodations. I want to make the generous, humorous, humanist ones. But not the others.
How many women do we know who got lost in the unmarked territory between the two? Because of that, I'm extra grateful for your awareness and reminders. Thank you.
Amber, you're right...I want to not over-interpret and have a paranoid suspicion about all the stuff he does or indicates. It's actually quite hard, being a fossilized feminist on her own for the last couple decades. But I'm glad for the challenge. I feel myself stretching and fearing and then....sorta coming back. Breathe. He's a human. He's probably not all that difficult to interpret! (I make it hard, internally.)
And you'll appreciate how your insight instantly helped. We were on the phone and he was telling me...last night was great, I had a terrific time, and that means you get an A+. My reponse? But I'm not interested in being graded.... And he goes: No, that just means you got a compliment from an engineer.
I almost said, have you met Amber?
:lol:
Then he started waxing eloquent about how he wants to hold and kiss me and blah blah (all physical stuff) but then said...to show you that I think the world of you.
[pause for brief melt]...and I realize, I think, that for him his physical desire of me IS a response to "who I am." He just uses physical language. I hope that's right.
Does it mean he feels the highest compliment he could pay me is to talk about how he *wants* me? I dunno. But in his analytical way, he might be trying to say that.
Dunno, dunno. It's lovely to be an object of desire. But I don't wanna be an object of desire. Catch my conundrum?
I give everybody here a blanket invite to the long-running triple feature of Hops Dunno.
xxoo
Hops
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I get what you mean, Hops, I want to be desired for who I am first, with the physical aspect coming second. I think most men (I'm generalising, it could be just the men I've known in my life) tend to focus on the physical first, then the person. And I do wonder (again from talking to men) how much Western society convinces men that women like to be complimented on their physical appearance, rather than aspects of their personality or their achievements?
But I think all of this is going the right way. You're aware and you're very honest, Hops, including with yourself (and that's something that can be very hard). You're willing to look at things from different angles, hear different perspectives, speak openly with him (and take the risk that entails) and listen to what he says. No relationship (or person) will be perfect but I think open conversation and being able to speak your mind without worry is probably a very big component in a relationship being very good (or perhaps 'right for you' is a better way to look at it?). He seems happy to take what you say on board and make adjustments. He doesn't seem to be overly sensitive to comments and take everything as a personal criticism? Which is good. And you have such a good level of awareness that I don't think you're going to walk into some kind of elephant trap and suddenly find yourself stuck in something you can't get out of.
I think whatever goes on with your chap you are in a really good position to work with the situation and make sure you get what you need and want - with him, with someone else, by yourself. I think it will all work out okay :) xx
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I'm laughing out loud Hops.
I have a "useful big brother" who is heavily credentialed as an engineer. Been getting to know him online for years now. To the point that we're intimate enough to share about our families. He and his wife have adopted kids to "rescue" them from awful life situations. You can see how I might have a little hero worship for him. This last set of twins, were adopted after their parents were killed in front of them. He's our age; has recently been diagnosed with MS - and is researching his butt off in his plentiful spare time now to find anything that can help maintain his quality of life, as long as possible. He's writing a book (I haven't asked yet what it's about.)
He's heard Twiggy's story; he has his own. We can talk about dissociation, the spiritual aspects of that... coping... and what "letting it go" really means. We are really good friends now - and despite both of us really needing the other from time to time as sounding boards - that's valuable enough as a relationship for both to relax in. Despite our different ways of approaching life and problems.
It's because of sharing that "over-analytical" tendency between us, that this friendship is possible. Sure, mine is applied most often to emotional and creative situations. But that's the connection. We can understand each other's "processing" that way. Almost to the point of being able to finish each other's sentences. I help him from time to time, dealing with problems that come up with both sets of sisters (the older two are now married) as they continue healing from their trauma. His approach is very simple: give them enough positive experiences, love, protection and firm, but gentle guidance that the trauma isn't the biggest thing in their lives anymore.
Having that one place - the processing mode, in analytical style - as a connection is what makes this friendship WORK. I think your ability to verbalize your processing - even the "dunnos" - when shared with B, will also open an opportunity for him to connect with you at that level. It's worth it's weight in gold to me, I know that. It also is an opportunity for him, to bare his soul to you - in a trusting space - and that may bloom into more.
As for the "fossilized feminist" - well, having grown out of that from Twiggy's days, I can only say that sometimes that body of ideas has backfired on a lot of women. Confused things even more. A good part of my life started from the premise that I could do anything a man could do (my way of course; upper arm strength still evades me) and just as well. But it cost me a lot too. It was only after learning that it was OK for me to matter enough, that my needs/wants were met sometimes TOO... that things started to get sorted out. Feminism doesn't understand the typical masculine psychology very well at all. It all gets reduced to dominance and power struggles in the most extreme areas; and to my way of thinking that's just not correct for the majority of men. That automatically makes them the "enemy"...
which then, gets in the way of relationships. Yes, men tend to express emotional attraction, like and love, physically. Sometimes they equate and confuse the two. It's a lie born of stereotyping, that men are more sexually oriented/needy than women... and I can attest to that personally. It's also not true that men think about sex more than women. Romance novels wouldn't be such a big section of the book market, if that were true. But women give physical affection, based on what's in their heads ultimately - combined with a good helping of emotion and hormones. And if we're seeing this natural human activity in terms of dominance/submission or a power struggle... that conflicts with our nurturing side, and our needs to be nurtured -- we'll be too paranoid to allow it. Yet, that's EXACTLY what we want... LOL.
OY. I still deal with this. Still a work in progress. But what works best for me, to separate my thinking and analysis of the balance of the relationship and feelings/actions within it... from feeling the feelings all by themselves and making ye olde monkey mind just SHUT UP for the duration of experiencing that sharing of physical comfort and pleasure. Swoons and melting... are the antithesis of the whole body of feminist ideas. But that's what relationships involve. Making out like teenagers, like Lighter said. FUN, letting down your hair, intimacy.
(And I'm not saying ALL of those feminist ideas are bad; but we shouldn't have to accept ALL the bad - to experience SOME of the good ones. And it may just be that some ideas are "bad for us" -- but "good for others". In the realm of "ideas" - the "one size fits all" concept has been incorrectly applied too many times, in too many ways, to the point that it invalidates the "rule of thumb" ideas prevalent in popular culture. All us humans are different; so how could it even be possible that all the ideas inherent in body or collection of ideas that evolve into an "ism" apply to everyone equally, without allowing for all the variables that make each human unique?)
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Although the interest and attraction were there when B and I met Oct. 2nd, it wasn't until Dec. 2nd that we acknowledged neither was dating others. (Before that he'd suggested he still was, but on that date he acknowledged that wasn't true.) Since that Dec. 2 date, our pace of seeing each other has picked up to a couple times a week (before that, 2-3 times a month).
Long story short, I'm attracted to him, enjoy the making out mostly. But I do feel pressured and a little trapped every time. It's not relaxed. I always feel he's pushing for more. He's always, always focused on getting me alone. He's been nice and pleasant when he's met my friends, but I sense so clearly that he primarily wants me indoors, on a couch, getting it on. It's like an aura. He's contained, and quiet, but I know the look on his face and he's made clear what he's thinking about and it just feels relentless.
If our pace and sense of progressing to that point were MUTUAL, playing with that energy as Lighter describes would be a delight. But it's not. He's ahead of me and I feel pressured. It is somewhat subtle but real and it backfires.
Tonight we went to dinner at 600. I had a busy workday and have a long one tomorrow. Around 800 we were done and he drove me home. I explained that I wouldn't invite him in because the house was a mess (and he'd mentioned at dinner that he was tired himself). His response concerned me. He looked pissed though he tries to mask it. We necked a few minutes more and then he just grabbed my breast. Not hard, but without any interchange of that energy. I was still and he just grabbed. Lightly but, it didn't feel inviting or affectionate. Felt demanding. He had a half-bottle of wine and said, sorta joking, you know I had brought wine for you. I said, oh I didn't assume, jokingly. And he said, jokingly, "Screw you." I said, well eventually yes, seems like we're heading in that direction!
Were we joking?
Dome part of this dance is me sensing he feels not only frustrated but entitled. I cannot help this -- my response to pressure to become more intimate is to recoil. Pressure. I don't like being pressured. And my response to anger, even controlled anger in small and subtle spurts, is to wanna run.
We've really been a declared "couple" not quite 3 weeks. I'll say again that he's a rich man who's experienced a lot of power in the workplace and he's also very physically focused, as an ex athlete. I'm not sure this is going to work.
(Because I feel pressured, and because I sensed his annoyance when I said I'd unable to invite him in this evening, when he resumed kissing me in the car I kept talking nervously. He just pressed on, ignoring the fact that I was talking. Later I wished I'd had the guts to say, When someone is chattering nervously when you feel like kissing, would it help to stop and ask about the nervousness? Or does it help to press on regardless? Hint: "being over-ridden physically while I was talking, even though it was a nervous talking--did not feel good.")
I don't know what to do. I'm afraid I'm sensing some stuff I can't deal with. Or don't want to.
I'll try to talk with him about it but my T is on vacay and I'm not sure I'll approach it right. I'll try. We're supposed to get together this weekend...
Hops
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Hops, I'm just posting quickly and will post more later on, but I would say postpone this weekend - give yourself enough time and headspace to figure out how you feel and what you want/need to do next. Don't be pressured or feel obliged. The fact that you felt pressured and nervous bothers me. The fact that you are sensing you will need to deal with 'stuff' concerns me. Postpone this weekend. Wait until you've spoken to T (although keep in mind T might not be so open to your needing to wait where the physical stuff is concerned). But don't try to figure this out quickly or by yourself. Wait until everything has settled down, until you feel relaxed, confident, assured about how you feel with the situation. There is nothing wrong with not liking being pressured, or wanting to run from anger. Those are healthy reactions warning you that something is off. Heed them, and put the brakes on for the time being xx
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Some more thoughts as I'm reading through again, Hops - bullet points, and with the caveat that I have a history of abuse so I am quite sensitive to 'man' stuff - but what's flashed at me reading through is:
You've only actually been 'a couple' three weeks. And only seeing each other two or three times a week during that period. Very early stages and you've been very clear about wanting to proceed slowly. Three weeks isn't slow, by anybody's standards. I don't feel there's any justification for him being impatient.
Indoors, on a couch, getting it on, is very low maintenance from his point of view. No need to talk, dress up, engage with other people, enjoy experiences, explore. Easy, indoors, little effort, physical needs met. I don't read anything of you in there.
You mention feeling pressured several times. I think this is a red flag. You are a very wise, compassionate, well educated woman with a lot of (often unpleasant) life experience. You've been very clear, precise and measured with him about what you want and what you are looking for. If you're feeling pressured I think it's because he's putting you under pressure, albeit subtly (and that's a red flag for me, people who elicit feelings in us because their actions and their vibe don't tally with their words are potentially troublesome).
The after dinner exchange sounds unpleasant. You've been out for a bite to eat, it's mid-week, you've got work again in the morning. To my mind a kiss and a cuddle before heading indoors sounds great but boob grabbing? Not the time or the place and, as you said, not on the same page as you. The interchange about the wine seemed odd? I can't quite put my finger on it but it felt as though the wine was supposed to get him through the door or something? It doesn't feel jokey when I read it although I can't really explain why.
He has no right to feel frustrated or entitled so you don't need to be feeling you can't 'help' how you feel. How you feel is exactly how I would feel in that situation. You've been clear you need time - if he needs things to move quickly he has the option to move on - you've not given him any false flags or false hope. He has no entitlement to anything, under any circumstances. It reads as though you're worried about how you're reacting to him and that worries me.
You mention that he kept kissing you when you were talking. You weren't reciprocating, you felt nervous and he just ignored all of that and carried on doing what he wanted. Then you say that you wish you had the guts to say something and that bothered me, Hops, that you're feeling you need to summon up courage to deal with him? This is not sitting well with me. And then you mention you want to discuss it with him but you're worried you won't approach it right. That concerns me as well.
I will hold up my flag of declaration - I'm no expert when it comes to relationships and I have additional issues because of the sexual abuse, but for me this raised a lot of red flags, Hopsie, more because of the way you're talking about it. It sounds like he's knocked you off your stride, purposely or unconsciously I don't know, but it sounds as if you're doubting yourself and questioning yourself and you mention more that once trying to say or do things in a way that, essentially, won't bother him. That concerns me greatly. A part of me is wondering now if he's told you what he thinks you want to hear so that he can get what he wants quicker. I worry when people's actions and mannerisms don't match the things they say. From my perspective, there should be no assumption on his part that he's going to be invited in, nor that it's okay to touch you or carry on kissing you when you aren't reciprocating. Personally I would want clear talking and sensitivity from a guy - the same way that you've been very clear with him and you're working to understand his point of view. I think that needs to go both ways. So I would say put the brakes on for now, and perhaps don't mention anything for now. Perhaps just say you need to work or you need a little space and leave it to see if he tries to fix it or work out if everything's okay, instead of you doing it all? I don't mean in a playing games way, but just sit back for a few days and see what happens without you steering the whole situation? xx
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Oy, and....
::Thinking carefully before typing::.
When we don't want to know what's happening to us, we become confused,IME.
I interpret this situation as opportunity, Hops. Talk about this, then listen to his responses. Believe him if he's entitled, short and irritated over not getting what he wants. This is the Jelly moon dating phase.....everyone pointing their toes, best foot forward and all that. Believe him when he shows you who he is, bc he's unlikely to become kinder, more caring than he is now, IME
Be your own advocate. What would you want for your best friend?
And.....He might regret making you feel pressured.fearful. He may be clueless, blinded by what he assumes is mutual lust, etc. If you don't talk about it, he can't tell you his truth.
And we're strong, Hops. We can put up with, explain away and excuse a lot. The frog in the pot is so true. Learning the truth later won't make it better, IME. Maybe worse.
If we suspend judgement and fear, when we have the fearful conversations...
If we approach instead with curiosity only... if we lean into trust we can handle whatever truth may come, what will happen?
Lean into gratitude for your instincts, and ability to efficiently base decisions on the truth.
Remember.... radical acceptance, Hops. Remember.
Maybe security, and relationship outweighs the negative in this relationship? You won't know until you see the truth, whatever it is.
Asking men for their opinions is easy IF you suspend judgement, IME.
It gets easier if you respectfully appreciate their honesty, no matter how you feel about it, IMO.
They'll tell you their truth if they aren't reading your negative facial expressions and body language I've found. Appearing very curious, bordering on fascinated by their opinions no matter what they say, helps channel real honesty. We can't ask leading questions, with huge expectations, and expect total honesty.
You don't have to eat this elephant in one bite. Ask questions, listen, suspend judgement and think about his responses before addressing them at another time. Take pressure off yourself..... getting to know someone takes time, and you have the right to give yourself however much time you require.
Breath. Gather information. You can figure this out, and you will. In the meantime, tell this man what your boundaries are, and insist he respect them.....do it without fretting or guilt. Stick to them. Don't budge. Try to use humor. Give him opportunity to explain his feelings. Dies he want to know how you feel? Does he care?
If he continues to cross boundaries you have the option if restating the boundary....
"I'm not ready to give up making out like teenagers only yet. If you move past that again, I'll know you aren't interested in building a relationship with me."
Then listen to what he says and does.
I'm tapping this out on my phone, so lacking brevity here.
Lighter
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One more thing.....
A man who ignores a woman's NO.....who tries to change it into a YES is waving a red flag.
Don't ignore it. Face it, and know you have every right to do so.
:: nodding::..
It's ok if he pouts or goes away in a bad mood.....he has to honor the boundary.
You have to endure your discomfort with his displeasure....this isn't yours to fix. Giving in, to keep the peace, isn't an option. He has to figure out if he cares about your needs and feelings, even if he doesn't get what he wants short term.
He might have to figure this out the hard way.
You might decide he's not worth the bother.
Lighter
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Oh my gosh.
Again, thank you all so MUCH.
This deep degree of reflection, insight, and encouragement is absolutely beyond price. I can't even express it. I would have to be in the world's greatest therapy group with trusted comrades for years to even begin to be able to verbalize to you how helpful this is.
I am so grateful. I have read and re-read all of your posts and am processing them quite deeply right now. Each of you has said something (multiple somethings) that is SO strengthening, insightful and powerfully useful. I am just amazed at the power of it.
I feel not alone, that my team of Amazons are flapping their [feathery, leathery, brass?] wings all around me for the next time I deal with him. I have a lot to take in from what you've said and it's all like some kind of healing power potion. Thank you.
It's just an extraordinary gift, and you each should know how profoundly it's appreciated.
Will update as soon as I know or figure out or experience the next ... whatever it will be.
Much love,
Hops
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It seems there's a unamimous consensus here, and I'm not gonna break it either. I have a BUNCH more to say, but on the phone with realtor and have to go get the mail. Back in a few minutes.
Yeah, my life has been like this all week. LOL. You'd think I was trying to do business over the holidays or something.
OK, the matter at hand:
Look, all's fair in love and war. So, you're gaining experience in what HE thinks is fair. That said, if you "don't wanna" - you truly DO. NOT. OWE. HIM. ANYTHING. Remember what I said about guys seeing relationships - especially dating - in terms of transactions? This is it. Up to this point, you've enjoyed each other's company. And that is IT. If for any reason you are now uncomfortable - you can postpone the next date, make it long enough to sort yourself out, whatever... there is no contract you'd be breaking. You don't need to blame him, either.
You are enjoying the "getting to know you phase" without much that could be called sex. Ain't nothin' wrong with that! He doesn't like it - tough titty. (that was intentional...)
You have to set the pace for YOU; what you're comfortable with. That's in your job description. And what I'm hearing is something I'm acquainted with - that reluctance. It's a complicated, knotty ball of yarn/issues really. And I think you DO need to pull back long enough, that you have time to sort it out - with your T, talking to friends, the Amazons... Whatever works. When you've identified the issues, then you can decide what, if anything needs to be done about them. They're yours; and probably don't have a thing to do with him, even if how he is behaving triggered the feelings.
The word "negotiate" has several meanings. And it's applicable here. It CAN mean - the same thing as "navigate", as in - the soldier carefully negotiated the minefield. (I'm rolling my eyes at myself; dang martial metaphors.) But it also means to find terms through proposals/offers that are agreeable to one or more parties, in order to strike a bargain, make a deal or create a contract. You need to negotiate this tricky area about yourself WITH HIM. So, my advice isn't to stop seeing him. If you DO take a little time to postpone a date... make sure you suggest a specific alternative. That way he knows you're just taking a little breather. IF he truly cares about you, he'll accept and understand. It means, signifies absolutely nothing in the long run... about the relationship; it's just what you need to do for YOU, right now. Till the butterflies calm down.
So, that's it for you AND B. Now, for Hops by herself... and some more speculative stuff.
I'm having to grudgingly accept that there is more than "one me"... not as in multiple personalities, but each "me" deals with different things. The physical me is still trying to improve habits to stay healthy and feel better. The emotional me - well, she's a right sensitive thing; delicate even; prone to the vapors even! Go figure. The sexual me... manifests in a lot of different ways - intellectually, physically and emotionally. And she's a hot mess, given my history. "Conflicted" is the kindest adjective I could use. I can't let her make decisions, any more than I can the poor sensitive emotional basketcase. But they ALL need to be consulted in decision-making. That may not happen fast enough for a spontaneous situation, and someone waiting on me to say yes or no.
And when I need to process, and the situation demands a "right now" decision... the best thing for me to do is say I need to think it over. Buy myself some time. Consult with the "muses" and see if I can sort out from the jumble, just what is really my issue with "yes" or "no" here. See where I'm too hard (or judgemental) on myself... where there are real differences that might could be negotiated into a mutually acceptable "step" in whatever direction it is, I think that OVERALL I want to go.
The thing about seeing relationships as a transaction? Too often, knowing this about some men - I get all hung up in that concept. Bent out of shape. So, negotiation is also a transaction, but it's where you're refining definitions, boundaries, what you each want, etc... acting as your own advocate. Not all men do this... and the ones that do, do so in different degrees. So, maybe it's better to think in terms of expectations - yours first, then what you THINK his are, and ask him. Again. Ya gotta be able to FEEL it's OK to talk to him about things like this. It's a basic pre-requisite, IMO.
It's perfectly OK to feel how you felt. You didn't like it. He needs to know that in a non-blaming way. Perhaps he'll modify this in the future. But if he is a typical "engineer-type"... he NEEDS this feedback from you in order to do so. He wouldn't necessarily be able to "read" your reactions and come to a correct understanding based on emotional intelligence or mind-reading.
So, take a "Hops Date" or weekend... just for you. I don't think he's going anywhere, but you can make it clear you don't WANT him to, by suggesting a different date to get together.
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You will know what to do, Hops, you're a wise owl, you listen to yourself, you take time to think and ponder and observe and it will all serve you well - I just know how it feels when someone or something knocks you off course a bit and it takes a bit of time to get back on the path - having people to help you refocus helps (as I know when you all do it for me) :) xx
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I'm a Hoover stuck on high...vacuuming up every grain.
(Meanwhile, this was the Dear Prudence column today on SLATE. Must be a conspiracy...)
Dear Prudence,
I have more than once had sex, or gone further than I was really comfortable going with men, for the sake of preserving their feelings, or because I felt I had already taken things too far to back out. Almost all of my female friends have a similar story. How do I convince myself that I don’t need to have sex with someone to protect their feelings? And how do I find the words to politely end a sexual encounter after I become uncomfortable?
—Opting Out
Unlearning the message that you are responsible, as a woman, for making a man feel always comfortable is the work of a lifetime! The language itself is fairly simple and straightforward. There are dozens of ways to politely stop a sexual encounter: “Thanks for a nice evening, but I’m not feeling a connection, so I’m going to go home”; “I’m not comfortable with this anymore; let’s stop”; “I’m not coming in, good night.” The bigger problem, which you’ve already identified, is overriding the voice in your brain that says Oh my God, I couldn’t possibly say that, even if it were true. He’d be so offended, and I’d hurt his pride, and what if he tried to point out that I seemed to be having a good time earlier? I don’t want to get into an argument over this; it’d be easier just to go along for now and then leave as soon as it’s over.
Think of it this way. You sound like a sensitive and empathetic person—you would presumably not want to have sex with a man who actually felt uncomfortable and disinterested in sleeping with you, who was simply going along with you because he was anxious about hurting your feelings. If you found out that a man you were about to sleep with felt this way, you would stop immediately, because you would be wholly uninterested in having sex with a partner who was not genuinely enthusiastic. You would not want him to put on a good show, grit his teeth, and get through it. So treat yourself with the same kindness and generosity. I hope you find partners who cheerfully and graciously accept “Hey, this isn’t working for me anymore—let’s stop” as a normal thing to hear on a date. I hope you’re able to give yourself permission to stop a sexual encounter without feeling like you need to apologize or that you’re trying to break a lease before your rental agreement is up. Going on a date, flirting with someone, kissing someone, testing your chemistry—these aren’t links in a chain of events that leads to an irreversible “We have to have sex now” contract that you’re obligated to uphold against your own wishes, inclinations, and desires.
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Serendipity!
Prudence explained that way better than I tried to. I wonder if we ALL need a thread to just explore this whole side of our lives? So we don't keep trying to sort things out all over the place? Sort of an "Amazon's Powder Room" conversation...
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Hear! Hear!
Prudence....
hear, hear.
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I got no objections to anybody discussing "Heist" issues on this thread, for sure! I learn from it all and can always revert to talking about my specific relationship issues any time I want... y'all are welcome.
B. called tonight and we had a good talk so I'm feeling a bit better. He talked a lot about what I already knew. He WANTS TO ALREADY BE THERE. Sharing not just a bed but life and daily everything, because (my words) what he's feeling is a horrid cosmic loneliness. I get it. He was married for 46 years and being alone is freaking him out. (Which does not make it my problem to solve, as Lighter says. And, as L. says, I am not obligated to help him shortcut his suffering.)
But overall it was a good talk. He's made clear he wants not just me but the whole enchilada. (Not a proposal but he's imagining our lives shared FT. And I already told him what my goal is --family not girlfriend if we go there--so we'll cross that bridge down the road. Too early now.)
He told me it wasn't just that he was disappointed about not getting sex, but he'd been feeling frustrated during the evening because I'd talked a lot about various friends and other things, and not about our relationship and focusing on us, which is what he'd wanted. I am so glad I've learned this thing about not expecting someone else to read your mind or make you comfortable (like Prudie said). Just like that other night, when he got negative, and the next day had a big explanation about how he needed more touch and closeness. In both situations, the issue was the same. He was annoyed that I didn't give what he wanted (when he hadn't asked for it).
That time, I (being old and all) knew what I needed to tell him, which was: It's always good to ask for what you want, as long as you release the outcome. He goes huh? I said, when you're feeling the need for more touch or closeness, it's fine to speak: Would you give me a hug? (And know that sometimes you may not get what you ask for. But never expect another to read your mind.)
Last night, it was the same theme. So on the phone I told him, My response would be, Did you know that at any time during dinner, you could take my hand and say, "I'd like to talk about us. I've been feeling...etc." And he got it. That was the theme. He said he'd been telling himself that I didn't care as much as he did because I was talking about friends and not "us." And I responded that if he wanted to talk about us he could have said so. And I would have been happy to.
It was a good talk in that we communicated pretty well, and the theme became clear. He said he thinks that bears repeating. (Boy, I imagine it'd have to be repeated for years...took me decades of therapy and relationship books to understand that.) He's wanting me to know and anticipate and mind-read and I'm refusing/unable to do that, and that's healthier. Doesn't mean it'll work out long term but I do feel a lot more clear about knowing what I know is wise and not apologizing for it, even if he might eventually decide he can't hang in. (I have plenty I can learn from him as well.)
I also talked to him about exactly how I felt (over-ridden and him being large and seeming angry) in the car necking session. He said somberly, it is very good we're talking. I mentioned that this is a happy but huge adjustment for me, and that remaining centered in myself and my own sense of timing is important for me. I also told him, if someone I'm with who is fighting that cosmic void feeling (how much time do we have left, I want a shared life NOW) and thus has much more time urgency, and simply can't bear the frustration of my pace...I know that person can decide to go and find someone who is faster or more ready than I am. And I am at peace with that.
All in all, encouraging enough that we're still moving forward. Getting more specific about a weekend away (two rooms) and he also has a week's timeshare-ish thing at Hilton Head for another getaway should the first one go well and things progress.
I don't know if I'd have the courage not to bolt if it weren't for you guys. I mean that.
THANK YOU for abiding these ups and downs and minutiae with me. Do you know how wise and sane you are?
Gratefully,
Hops
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PS -- and I sent the Prudie column to B!
:D
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Oh GOOD Hops!!
You CAN talk this stuff out. Very very good. He's going to bring what Mike & I called, his own "baggage" about behavior in relationships... things he fears, bad habits, etc. Just like you have yours. Having a process for getting to an understanding about where and how touchy each other's "sore places" are... and what works to soothe them... is a healthy way to go about this.
Sometimes, when Mike would resort to various defense mechanisms, I'd remind him he was confusing me with some "other" wife. Or when he was deliberately treading into a place I'd put a boundary... I'd call him by Ex#2's name. This was our "code" that we could use anywhere any time, to communicate about a misunderstanding or miscommunication. Usually, that was all that was needed to resolve the problem & move on. Once in a while, it was big enough to talk about privately later.
So excellent that you've quickly gotten your balance back to center. I know that took years of practice, but I bow to you.... sensei. LOL.
I'm intrigued that his way of dealing with the acute pain of loneliness, is to move forward with all due speed to another relationship. Lots to ponder there, for me, since I still feel "involved" in a relationship with Mike - emotionally. It's him specifically I long for and there can be no substitute or replacement or new connection. Maybe that's just my self-limitation; a mental construct built around a bunch of complex feelings that I'm not ready to address directly.
Then, there is the experience of total freedom that balances the lonely times. No new guy to "housebreak" -- or train to understand my idiosyncrasies, and the long sagas by way of explanation about why I am, what I am. I do think, that I will eventually get involved in another relationship and the "definition" of what kind of relationship it is, is going to get thrown to the wind. No expectations or strings attached. That might a tad unusual for the traditional "guy's guy" I think I'm leaning toward to deal with.
HUH. More stuff to think about over the dreary winter months.
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Thanks, hon. I hear you about how striking his hurry is. I find it startling too. I do hear a lot that widowers can remarry at a blistering pace that often bewilders their children. Not sure completely why that is but it seems it's so.
My T said the suicide rate for men in their 70s is very high. (Or maybe he said widowed men.) Whereas most widows get through it and forge meaningful new lives (often because of their capacity for friendship and community building), for men of his generation it's way harder. Raised macho with a taciturn father, served in Air Force, worked in business including government contracts, etc. -- not a warm, fuzzy, learn about feelings kind of life. Pretty competitive, I think.
And though there were serious problems with his wife (anorexia + alcoholism) he clearly loved her and she must have been devoted (even apart from gourmet cooking!). He just seems completely lost without a woman in his life. She must've been his anchor in ways he didn't even consciously recognize, so now he's spinning.
I feel compassion for his state of mind and at the same time, a little wary about how much heavy lifting there'll be because he's had so very little relationship experience. I'm interested in being a supportive and loving companion to someone but not eager to be a FT soother. Still, he's been receptive, willing to talk it all through. We both acknowledged during that call yesterday how much hard work it is. I'm glad we have, because there's no glossing over it. As long as respect and communication stay intact, we might go the distance. But Hops dunno....
Jury will be out for a long time and the judge needs a nap. But not without saying, I believe you'll wind up with a new partner too. It's so good that you respect the grieving/healing process and aren't forcing yourself to take a new shape before you're ready.
Maybe the mountain place is in itself in some mysterious way, the new shape you're taking.
Hugs
Hops
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Huh.
When we talked today, he mentioned that my observation about him seeming/feeling "angry" was partly true. Mostly disappointment at not getting more time with me (when I declined to invite him in) but there was some anger in it too.
All this in a gentle tone, after saying "Truthfully, it'd be hard for anyone to stay angry at you" or some such flattery.
I didn't probe because it's exhausting to talk heavy stuff all the time. But something I would love some feedback here about is...that. Anger? ANGER?
To me the fact that he felt it, even some, is quite concerning. I'll be spending time with him tomorrow and hope I know how to ask him more about this. I've seen no signs of "temper" (or that was the first) ... but I am allergic to anger, especially when it seems entitled or unjustified or whatever.
If he can feel anger because of a transient disappointment after a short period of dating...does that say something really bad about what a LTR (long term relationship) could turn into?
What do y'all think? I am absolutely unwilling to live with unchecked or unexamined anger. So, how do I ask him to examine this? Is it even worth it to take on a former CEO-type (not exactly the CEO but a similar level of achievement) who doesn't already know that's off?
His other sin today. He mentioned his "girl assistant." I asked how old she is. Fifty. Sighhhh....
Still enjoying the possibilities, but wondering if he and I are from different solar systems.
xo
Hops
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Hopsy. Been a good Amazons weekend here. Real life, in person friends. Helping each other. Rolling with changes, because of age.
Thank you, for the "vision" of what could be. I can trust that, even if I know what the probability is. LOL. A girl can still dream. ;)
Essentially, y'all need to talk essentials. The anger may NOT be essential; it might be ephemeral - ego-based. He MIGHT could admit to that. You'll only know if you talk it through.
Breathe kiddo. Don't put yourself - or B - through a microscope, OK? Generalizations are exactly that, and may not apply in any specific circumstance. Trust yourself - and blow off our worries & concerns if you feel SURE. There shouldn't be any doubt, if you're sure.
If there's some doubt, just take it step by step and discern and JUDGE according to what you know you want - ultimately. In this case, go slowly and don't be afraid to slow things down according to your needs.
[I have some issues with someone rushing to a relationship to avoid "loneliness" on his part... without a real solid connection and mutual trust. And from what you're saying, I'm seeing that connection not being real solid yet. Maybe it will be in a bit. But if I were you, I would dig in my heels and refuse to be rushed. God knows, guys think I'm "difficult".]
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I hear you, Amber, and thank you.
"Difficult" = "I don't want you to be the way you are, I want you to be the way I want you to be..."
Gonna take a lot of maturity all around (for you and your future someone, ditto me and B or anyone else).
I think the flip side of recognizing I REALLY AM on my own side, is facing (again) the equal possibility that a solitary and uncertain old age still looms. But who knows? If I wind up choosing not to move forward with B because I sense both a prod at my back and possibly a gilded cage ... I might thank the universe for an experience that has made me stronger and more rooted in my own life.
Or, if he surprises me with insight and eagerness to understand and challenge himself (not just wait for me to do all that work) ... then going forward could be joyous.
Sloooow joy. That's what I'd look forward to.
Happy everything,
Hops
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Hops:
It takes bravery to speak about things we fear....things that could change our life, crush a hope.... opportunity, I ME.
You're stepping up, and using your voice. B is listening and responding. This is huge, for so many reasons. And B might have to sulk and examine his inner world a bit.... I imagine it won't be comfortable, which is the opposite of what he seeks from you. He seems to be game, and that is hopeful.
As Amber hit on, B is rushing connection without building trust and connection. For me that speaks if needing and grasping at anything to stuff in his loneliness hole.
Want is more about two people, who can examine their motivation and emotions as you say, choosing one another with a LTR in mind. You're in that space. B is facing it for the first time. He may look at you as a treasure....as a a valued resource, if he's wise, IME. I've seen CEO right winged men embrace that new piece in their lives. As I said, my mother did it slowly with my step father, the emotional came later in other words. I think I'm saying big change takes time, and my mother was a very strong personality. She wanted and felt entitled to what she wanted.
I worry that you're desire for peace, and allergies to conflict might eventually silence you in this relationship. You refer to B as someone you felt was important... I'm afraid he'll use his words, and maybe go between overt kindness to moodiness, denying you comfort if true connection, hope he can be a good enough partner.....trauma bonding is such a familiar dance, isn't it? Is that a bit of what's going on here, and....if it is....is it something he IS, or something he's doing at a stressful time he would change if only he could?
I'm trying to say that B might jump sideways on his way to understanding,and settling into wanting not needing so much.
He might not ever budge from his position, just posture as he continues toward a set goal he doesn't understand or have the ability to value, beyond what he can get when he wants it.
I guess you're trying to meet in the middle somewhere so neither if you feels diminished. You certainly want to approach a guilded cage with care, even if you make that choice, IME.
In the meantime, expect B to struggle a bit and require space to thrash without being judged. Growth is painful. Reflection brings clarity. He might be a bit all over the page for a bit, and you'll pay attention. Is he reflecting, or just thrashing? Is he growing or just trying to find the path of least resistance? Is he resentful that small words and efforts aren't clearing his way, it is he softening, truly, to you and your needs?
People thrash. The thrashing isn't always indicative of where we end up, IME.
Lighter
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Lighter, thank you.
I'm pretty stunned by how incisively and clearly you see not just broad behavior patterns, but nuances. And can articulate them for another.
This is so valuable to me. I need to read and re-read.
You are expansive and compassionate toward his humanity and at the same time, alert to his attitude toward mine--offering me potential benchmarks to notice. I appreciate that greatly. I just hope I am smart and intuitive enough to find a healthy balance between wariness, weariness, self-defense, self-sabotage, and the yearnings of the heart. I am NOT interested in power struggle and sometimes with B., it feels that way. I get it. It may be his life's story. But hopefully, he may be one of those older men who's ready for the kind of pivot you describe.
I'm especially grateful for what you said about noticing whether he's really interested in my needs or just grinding forward to make obstacles disappear so he can get what he wants asap.
(One blunt friend emailed me that it's "unfair" for me to hold out on B. as in her --and her husband's!-- opinion I've known him long enough. She is a brilliant, odd duck and I decided to be amused, not offended. I hadn't asked her to pass along her hubby's opinion about that! Lordy....it's actually funny. But also made me a little embarrassed. She's one of the two friends who's met him. She's the econ professor and World Bank consultant...a hugely accomplished Type A+++ woman. But wow...I told her I realized I'd opened the door but think I should keep my private decision making more private for now. Changed the subject to our upcoming lunch.
"Heist" is apt. I'm SO glad I have this safe space to talk about anything!!!)
Wow and wow again. Thank you!
Humbly,
Hops
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PS -- Another true reason I'm not interested in power struggle (which some see as primally positive, a test, a vital exercise, etc) is that I am a coward. I embrace my cowardice. As a child I was so empathetic and sensitive that I could hardly bear being in the world.
Example, probably not terribly original for a sensitive type: From my first glimpse of it in childhood onward, I loathed football on sight. Simple reason -- it was violent. All these boys were crashing into each other and the collisions were obviously one point of the game. As a small, I saw it as, they're TRYING to hurt each other. As a larger, well maybe that's not what they're thinking but nonetheless, it's obviously what they're doing.
So I've been eager to see the film Concussion, just watched it on Amazon last night. Spent the morning (hello, internet rabbit holes) reading fantastic articles in GQ about the pathologist who discovered it and all the ramifications, player stories, the science, the NFL's loathsome initial response, the impact of money, and the blood-lust of the American public.
Very validating. Sort of in a similar way that all of a sudden, Americans are feminists now! Amazing articles on sexual harrassment -- some crude and over-reaching, some sex panic, and many many more, imo, profoundly vulnerable/powerful stories from women explaining what it feels like to be over-ridden. How it affects your sense of self.
I'm sure a lot of that is echoing in my personal experience now. It's an amazing time and I'm going to try to see the good in this onslaught of awakening. It's cultural and personal and quite surprising to me how the two are dancing simultaneously right now.
xo
Hops
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Lighter, thank you.
I'm pretty stunned by how incisively and clearly you see not just broad behavior patterns, but nuances. And can articulate them for another.
This is so valuable to me. I need to read and re-read.
You are expansive and compassionate toward his humanity and at the same time, alert to his attitude toward mine--offering me potential benchmarks to notice. I appreciate that greatly. I just hope I am smart and intuitive enough to find a healthy balance between wariness, weariness, self-defense, self-sabotage, and the yearnings of the heart. I am NOT interested in power struggle and sometimes with B., it feels that way. I get it. It may be his life's story. But hopefully, he may be one of those older men who's ready for the kind of pivot you describe.
I'm especially grateful for what you said about noticing whether he's really interested in my needs or just grinding forward to make obstacles disappear so he can get what he wants asap.
(One blunt friend emailed me that it's "unfair" for me to hold out on B. as in her --and her husband's!-- opinion I've known him long enough. She is a brilliant, odd duck and I decided to be amused, not offended. I hadn't asked her to pass along her hubby's opinion about that! Lordy....it's actually funny. But also made me a little embarrassed. She's one of the two friends who's met him. She's the econ professor and World Bank consultant...a hugely accomplished Type A+++ woman. But wow...I told her I realized I'd opened the door but think I should keep my private decision making more private for now. Changed the subject to our upcoming lunch.
"Heist" is apt. I'm SO glad I have this safe space to talk about anything!!!)
Wow and wow again. Thank you!
Humbly,
Hops
Bleurgh, I hate the way sex is seen as a power struggle or a bargaining tool that women 'hold on' to and men constantly try to get. I get that your friend is probably well intentioned but sex is different for different people and for some people it's much more about emotional intimacy and vulnerability than it is about the physical act itself. Personally I am glad you've not gone against your own wishes and slept with him, Hops. Reading through what you've written I can see two very different scenarios with B. In the first he is a sweet man, rather set in his ways and struggling to work his way through dating/relationships/later years in life after losing his wife and perhaps struggling a little to keep pace with your (quite advanced) emotional intelligence and your huge heart that you wear bravely on your sleeve and are willing to offer him, providing he meets certain standards :) On the other, it could be that his disappointment and annoyance at you talking about your friends indicates a controlling nature (that may get worse), his difficulties in verbalising how he feels and picking up on how you feel may indicate self centredness and a lack of interest in others, his willingness to concede to comments that you make may, as Lighter says, be him smoothing the waters to get what he wants quicker. I think we are all hoping it's the first scenario! But equally you've had your heart broken enough times to know the second is possible and it is eminently sensible to hold back until you feel completely comfortable - however many weeks, months or even years that takes. And yes, best to shut the door on that conversation with that particular friend! Lol xx
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THANK YOU, ((((Tupp)))). Yegods, this is heartening and supportive in the deepest definition of the term.
Not to mention apt, precise, compellingly comforting in its reality. I am so grateful for reality. I am such a fuzz-head in so many ways in my lazy, ADD-distracted, rabbit-hole escapist daily life that it's been very difficult to focus the lens. With you all observing and commenting, I feel as though I have Company. In the realest sense of company. Having a company. Not marching alone.
This really, really helps me do that better:
I can see two very different scenarios with B. In the first he is a sweet man, rather set in his ways and struggling to work his way through dating/relationships/later years in life after losing his wife and perhaps struggling a little to keep pace with your (quite advanced) emotional intelligence and your huge heart that you wear bravely on your sleeve and are willing to offer him, providing he meets certain standards :) On the other, it could be that his disappointment and annoyance at you talking about your friends indicates a controlling nature (that may get worse), his difficulties in verbalising how he feels and picking up on how you feel may indicate self centredness and a lack of interest in others, his willingness to concede to comments that you make may, as Lighter says, be him smoothing the waters to get what he wants quicker. I think we are all hoping it's the first scenario! But equally you've had your heart broken enough times to know the second is possible and it is eminently sensible to hold back until you feel completely comfortable - however many weeks, months....
I can't thank you enough because this feels so anchored. So real.
And now off I go to the lion's den, errr, the sweet man's lovely house in the country...for a long afternoon/evening of what I HOPE will be great talk, savvy observation, undefensive affection, pleasant boundaries held in a light and generous-hearted way.... Hope is nice. Paying attention is nicer. I am clearly ambivalent but also looking forward to seeing him.
He just called to say he hiked 5 miles and his knees hurt and needs a shower. So I offered to come a bit later. My grand conversation plan may be sidelined if he falls asleep. And it'd probably be a relief. We'll see!
(I wanted to say, oh that's good I'll be coming a bit later, so you won't be fantasizing about wandering around in your skivvies...but refrained....) :lol:
xxxooo
Hops
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Evening went well! He told me he understood I'd felt "threatened" by his behavior (I said not threatened, but I did feel pressured). And he said he was not going to push or press about physical intimacy but let me indicate what I was into/ready for. I was so relieved and said Thank you! Then talked a little bit about how that energy feels nicest to me if it's mutual, and there's space for both to reach out to dance in it. But if it's coming from one side like a fire hose, my natural instinct is to retreat.
I think he heard me. He was true to his word, enough that we snuggled on the couch through a whole movie without me feeling he was about to jump at me. Kiss, hug, handhold, backscratch, and it just felt calmer. I relaxed more than I ever have though I still was a little jumpy.
He would now and then mention how difficult it was to restrain himself, but not in a snide way. I am baffled at how overwhelmed with desire he appears. It would be flattering but I needed him to contain it better to give me time to get used to him and so forth. Just as Tupp said, as much time as I need. I am relieved to have spent a long stretch of time with him where he didn't amp it up.
We went to dinner at a bistro near his house and it was very pleasant. And he's come up with a nice idea for a weekend getaway, so I think we'll probably do that soon.
Still felt very eager to get home, retreat here to my cozy independent space. It's just a massive, huge, big, large adjustment -- having had my privacy (sometimes in anguish but not always) and the freedom Amber talked about -- since 1995.
Hoo boy. This is hard work and is taking courage but for tonight, I'm still hanging in.
Thanks to you guys.
xxoo
Hops
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Another angle to this gem of a problem...
but I am aware that I'm probably going to be clumsy with words about it. (Still a major WIP for me.) Please bear with me; I know what I'm trying to say - I just don't rightly know how to say it concisely. So, back to telling stories on myself - by way of example.
Somewhere in the process of finally getting most of Twiggy's trauma processed down into a numbered item on a medical history form... I discovered that even with my trusted gentle lover-husband... I was starting to freak out about sex. Oh, I was still very much interested and enjoyed myself - but there was something startlingly scary about it. Moments of abject terror. After all these years. Made me want to pull back, stop, get enough distance to analyze it under a microscope. Conundrum city.
I knew the problem was completely mine; something in my head/feelings that hadn't been completely totally addressed yet. Throw in the physical changes with menopause and trying to make changes in a "comfortable & comforting routine" with Mike, with new instructions... and well, that part of our relationship went to hell in a handbasket right before he got sick and KNEW he was getting sick (without sharing that with me of course.) Maybe that part of me - the intuitive, sensitive part - WAS picking up on this reality... but those are never at the verbal level, when I get a "knowing"... and my reaction was a precursor to major loss. It's hard to tell, even now. It could've just been some unprocessed fragment of Twiggy's experience too.
Well, that was just a MESS for me to wrap my head around and poor Mike, patient though he always was with me, was a lot more sexually driven as his way of expressing intimacy than even I was. And he couldn't help but take some of that personally - even though I reassured him repeatedly, that he shouldn't because I didn't consider it anything he was/wasn't doing that was "wrong". The fear would just pop up anywhere anytime without warning.
It never did get resolved between us.
But I've had more time to look at it and what I think is that sometimes, things like this solidify in our minds/feelings and become roadblocks on the path of change. That my reaction - that odd disembodied and totally irrelevant, irrational fear - caused me to act & feel certain ways that totally mucked things up. Like perhaps a pattern that seems to take on a life of it's own - and that we give belief to - belief in it's reality, instead of a passing feeling based on past life experience. And it stops the flow of the present moment; gums up the works in our heads... and being with someone else. We immediately react and shift our center of gravity into different perceptions, feelings and awareness states.
I can't really call it bad - because usually that reaction was what kept me safe numerous times. Or it was perhaps a bit of the dissociation reflex from Twiggy's experience. But I know it's damned inconvenient and frustrating - not just for me; it causes confusion and uncertainty and doubt in a relationship. I honestly dunno after looking at it for a long time now - what it really is or was.
So, I wonder... if there is a pattern in my feeling-mind that's been invested with enough energy that is part of the problem with me. That gets in the way of me just relaxing, going with the flow, or being COMFORTABLE with saying... wait, let's do something different - try this instead - or even, wow - whatever THAT was, I'm just not in the mood anymore. Comfortable with the idea of letting a gate into the fence of a boundary between "I and Thou"... to allow myself; give myself permission to experience that intimacy. To PLAY.
Maybe the fear is one of enmeshment. And it would make sense to a feeling-rational mind... for a fear to come up at such a time. Especially as much as I have spent in that kind of "intimacy" in my life and once I did get past it... any and all whiffs of it (including real intimacy) put the fear of God into me.
I dunno for sure. Just talking this one out because from things you've said Hops, I was seeing some fragments of some parts of the same thing. I've been fumbling around in the dark on this one for awhile - so I could just be seeing things in what you've described, too. And have only just now (above) connected a fear of enmeshment with my intimacy reticence.
Comments? Insights? Is this a totally wacked out theory that I've dreamed up to keep monkey mind busy? LOL.
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((((Amber))))
Reading your post makes me feel protective for you. I have no idea how your past experience wouldn't show up in your life. Of course it did. I'm glad dear sweet Mike was a part of your world.
Your post did bring up some poignant moments that might apply to Hops' situation.
When my B came along he was very in my face, hold my beer while I went to the bathroom, ask me out all the time, lean into my space....moving faster than I could process.
I forget exactly how it happened, but I let off a verbal warning shot, and instead of giving me more space, he inexplicably closed more distance. I said true things that made him go away for good.
That gave me plenty of space, and I used it to reflect. I missed B, his kindness, his unwavering.... whatever it was going to be. My instincts said to bring him back.
I wrote a letter explaining why I needed the space I'd asked for, and he was still clutching it when I opened my front door. He'd flown to me after reading it, and it felt just the right thing to do.
From that day he was very careful about not rushing me, which provided the space for
Me
To
Close
The
Distance.
And when I did, for I surely did, he was all....
"What are you in? Wait a minute?"
Adorable, and he had my heart particularly after he heard my response....and you might guess it Hops.. .
I wanted to make out like teenagers.
::Grin::
His stress melted, and what you called slow joy did begin.
Looking back, B was a driven type A CEO type, but his imperative in relationship was to do too much, protect and please. I'm not gonna lie. So was mine. I recognized something had to change, and I consciously made the decision to get used to being cared for, and receiving.
It was the best decision I ever made. Soon enough, there was a cadence to our life that felt right, and I was a very happy woman in a reciprocal relationship with a peer. Not King Baby, or a taker/ exploiter personality, which happens sometimes to those of us who feel we need to prove our worth, IME.
What aI notice about the takers....they tend to make comments designed to tear us down, sometimes very small comments at first, or large sometimes. I've heard both versions.
"I'm not attracted to you anymore, why is that?". Or some such accusations, as though it was my fault, or at all true, which wasn't the case. There was obvious lust, and plenty of it.
Particularly when spoken by a man, who couldn't engage in sex bc he reached nervana on approach several times.....was..... inexplicably.... amusing to me. I wasn't able to identify cruel manipulative behavior when I saw it, heard it. I don't know what was wrong with me, but I got it right with B.
B cared for his mother, and did kind things for her. The cruel little men didn't. How does your B speak about his mother...lost wife?
There's a difference between men who lean in to protect and cherish, and men who take and exploit for pleasure, IME.
I'm afraid I don't have much to offer in between, except perhaps that sometimes things aren't what they seem. Sometimes they're much worse, or better, than you can possibly imagine.
What is your B's imperative?
Does he want to be there for you, protect you, grow old with you?
Or is he worried about made up things, designed to chip away at your self esteem? There's evil in that. I've seen it up close, and made the mistake twice.
I'm glad you had an ok time last night,Hops.
Lighter
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Evening went well! He told me he understood I'd felt "threatened" by his behavior (I said not threatened, but I did feel pressured). And he said he was not going to push or press about physical intimacy but let me indicate what I was into/ready for. I was so relieved and said Thank you! Then talked a little bit about how that energy feels nicest to me if it's mutual, and there's space for both to reach out to dance in it. But if it's coming from one side like a fire hose, my natural instinct is to retreat.
I think he heard me. He was true to his word, enough that we snuggled on the couch through a whole movie without me feeling he was about to jump at me. Kiss, hug, handhold, backscratch, and it just felt calmer. I relaxed more than I ever have though I still was a little jumpy.
He would now and then mention how difficult it was to restrain himself, but not in a snide way. I am baffled at how overwhelmed with desire he appears. It would be flattering but I needed him to contain it better to give me time to get used to him and so forth. Just as Tupp said, as much time as I need. I am relieved to have spent a long stretch of time with him where he didn't amp it up.
We went to dinner at a bistro near his house and it was very pleasant. And he's come up with a nice idea for a weekend getaway, so I think we'll probably do that soon.
Still felt very eager to get home, retreat here to my cozy independent space. It's just a massive, huge, big, large adjustment -- having had my privacy (sometimes in anguish but not always) and the freedom Amber talked about -- since 1995.
Hoo boy. This is hard work and is taking courage but for tonight, I'm still hanging in.
Thanks to you guys.
xxoo
Hops
I'm glad you had a nice evening, Hops.
Something that has become apparent to me recently (in light of all these sexual assault/harassment allegations that keep coming) are that there are a lot of men who have been programmed/conditioned/whatever you want to call it, to believe that women (a) all want the same thing and (b) are very focused on their appearance/sexual prowess/needing to feel wanted. I was talking to someone just recently (male friend) and he was talking about paying a woman a compliment on her appearance and how he felt he couldn't do that anymore (unwanted attention). I said "well why don't you compliment her on the way she does her job or how she handles her kids or parks the car or whatever else it is you notice about her - something that isn't related to her looks?" and he was dumbfounded - it had honestly never occurred to him that a woman might not actually give a stuff about how she looks and might be much more into the way she is (a byproduct of our superficial, appearance driven society, I fear!).
So while I'm not suggesting for a minute that B isn't overwhelmed with desire for you (why wouldn't he be!) it did occur to me that maybe part of it is just that societal conditioning that women want to be told they're attractive, desirable and so on. Maybe he's still in that loop (particularly as it doesn't sound like he's dated for fifty or so years :) ) I don't mean that as a criticism of him, it's just something I've noticed in men I know when we've been talking about men and women and that whole dating/relationship conundrum.
I'm glad you had a good evening. I'm glad you're challenging him - not in a confrontational way, but I bet he hasn't met many ladies like you and I expect it's a very refreshing change for him :) xx
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I recognized something had to change, and I consciously made the decision to get used to being cared for, and receiving.
ding! ding! ding! That's a big piece of the puzzle, Lighter. The reciprocity of that in a relationship was very unusual for me. I really didn't have any experience of that until Mike. I was programmed to take care of my mom & brother; later programmed to take care of a man & the kids. Never entered my mind to ask what it would be like for someone to take of me, sometimes.
I kind of disagree with the idea in Tupp's observation about compliments re: looks being "off limits". Especially as we get older. It helped me relax a lot that Mike would let loose the casual "hubba-hubba" or tell me "Wow.... you look hot!". I relaxed even more, when I noticed him being protective of me when other men would also make that kind of attention known. (That kind of thing isn't automatically a red flag re: possessiveness.) Sorta a little smile and nod in their direction - yeah, she's with ME; you're too late. We worry a lot about what age does to our bodies - even if it's subconscious. So the compliments are needed feedback. Total silence on that topic - after I've spent 2 hrs primping - would make me wonder if he hadn't even noticed. (Which is why guys these days are basically resorting to more feral relationships with women, IMO. No one seems to know what the rules are and they commit a foul, no matter what they do when a woman can't just say "Thanks" and be secure enough that she's not seeing it as an "assault".)
But then, I readily admit I'm a "hot mess" on this topic... and until I sort out the sexual conflict thing I described above, I probably won't be venturing into any relationships or dating or whatever, because it just wouldn't be fair to some poor guy.
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Absolutely true for me, Amber. I don't think you're a "hot mess" at all. I believe strongly there's always a LOGIC behind emotions and reactions, even when they are frustrating or baffling at the time you're weathering them.
You gave Mike so much; I am absolutely positive there is no debt unpaid. You are very reflective and you honor him in how you think it through.
I agreed so much also with two things you pointed out: The difficulty in SPEAKING, in the moment, what one feels and needs. (Don't get me going on female socialization to not know how, or be on a delayed timer about it.) And also, fear of enmeshment. That is a huge thing for me, because the sorrow of loneliness has been equally matched over time by the satisfactions of freedom.
To have this well-intentioned man smiling and pressing his way into My Space, even though I've made a conscious decision that if other signals and signs and sensations tell me if I don't want a lonely old age I do need to accept that wanting a partner means developing some porosity about My Space -- there is a big huge resistance in myself about it.
One can dream of a seamless, peaceful transition into a new third entity of "We," but in reality it's a jerky, bruising, stumbling process. For me it is. But so far, this day, worth trying. In case of happiness.
Thank you, for your stories and your insights, which put the PT in APT.
love,
Hops
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...there was a cadence to our life that felt right, and I was a very happy woman in a reciprocal relationship with a peer. Not King Baby, or a taker/ exploiter personality, which happens sometimes to those of us who feel we need to prove our worth....
Lighter, this should be on billboards in every town. I am so happy you had that kind of a relationship with your B. I don't know when/how that went away, or if he was an early love, but I'm glad you had it, because you have an internal model that is very strong for what is not just acceptable, but good.
I'd buy a round to have been a fly on the wall for the dialogue you mentioned. The verbal thing that put an unequivocal boundary in place, with no ambiguity. (And how amazing he responded, and became your teenager....)
Your spotting sly put-downs and criticisms as designed to undermine and huge flags of near-evil resonate with me completely. I am not yet sure, due to not quite enough time spent nor post-honeymoon-manners spats sorted or things experienced together...whether B resorts to that or has that in his character.
I promise, if I hear something like that, I really believe I'll see it and extricate. I could not agree with you more what those casual, toneless put-downs (that sound neutral in the tone of voice) really convey. Cruelty. And if that surfaced I would run like a rabbit, not remain to debate.
Those kinds of remarks make me shudder, and I'm grateful I have at least THAT self-protective reflex.
Hops
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I hear you about compliments, Tupp. It's hard to sort out when they're meant as enthusiastic affirmations of one's appeal versus knee-jerk judgments (even positive remarks can read as garden-variety judgments -- it so depends on the tone and context) about one's ranking on the social scale of female acceptability.
B regarded me the other night (the night that ended weirdly) and stated in a flat kind of way, "You look about 60." I really had nothing to say in response. Didn't feel interested, didn't particularly like the remark but wasn't insulted. Didn't perceive it as a compliment because I don't care. Just thought, "Oh, that's uninteresting."
It did not matter to me one bit what female-appearance-age-number he had at that moment strolling through his brain. (It was a boring and meaningless thing to say. It was...assessing --perhaps trying to compliment but in that moment, didn't feel that way--a commodity.) I didn't take offense because I didn't perceive it as personal. I think it was just a result of him living as a powerful, successful, male in this culture for many many years. Sorry for that, not my job to fix.
I'll never undo all his conditioning so I figure it's a pick your battles moment. I wasn't interested in that one because it belongs to him. I'm generally fine about my age and appearance and if he wants to run a spreadsheet about it, he can waste his own time. We have things to unpack when they affect US. But that was like a moment of out-loud inner monologue that only revealed a weakness in his thinking, imo. (If he makes a similar remark, I will tell him simply that I'd rather he kept any other-than-positive assessments of my appearance to himself, and I'll offer the same.)
I remember a GOOD moment I had with a narcissist BF when he made a critical remark about me having a "back problem" in the sense that this was on an invisible list of reasons I likely wouldn't qualify as "the one" for him. I remember with pride (lesson learned late) getting up immediately, and saying to him clearly, "You never, ever criticize someone for something they cannot help. Anymore than I should criticize you for going bald or having the after-effects of prostate surgery."
I was containing myself; I was angry. Because that after-effect was exactly what you'd imagine, and it would never have occurred to me to fling that, which he could not help, in his face. That was the moment I realized he was cruel and I viscerally wanted no more to do with him. I was grateful.
HOO-AHH!
Hops
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I hear you about compliments, Tupp. It's hard to sort out when they're meant as enthusiastic affirmations of one's appeal versus knee-jerk judgments (even positive remarks can read as garden-variety judgments -- it so depends on the tone and context) about one's ranking on the social scale of female acceptability.
B regarded me the other night (the night that ended weirdly) and stated in a flat kind of way, "You look about 60." I really had nothing to say in response. Didn't feel interested, didn't particularly like the remark but wasn't insulted. Didn't perceive it as a compliment because I don't care. Just thought, "Oh, that's uninteresting."
It did not matter to me one bit what female-appearance-age-number he had at that moment strolling through his brain. (It was a boring and meaningless thing to say. It was...assessing --perhaps trying to compliment but in that moment, didn't feel that way--a commodity.) I didn't take offense because I didn't perceive it as personal. I think it was just a result of him living as a powerful, successful, male in this culture for many many years. Sorry for that, not my job to fix.
I'll never undo all his conditioning so I figure it's a pick your battles moment. I wasn't interested in that one because it belongs to him. I'm generally fine about my age and appearance and if he wants to run a spreadsheet about it, he can waste his own time. We have things to unpack when they affect US. But that was like a moment of out-loud inner monologue that only revealed a weakness in his thinking, imo. (If he makes a similar remark, I will tell him simply that I'd rather he kept any other-than-positive assessments of my appearance to himself, and I'll offer the same.)
I remember a GOOD moment I had with a narcissist BF when he made a critical remark about me having a "back problem" in the sense that this was on an invisible list of reasons I likely wouldn't qualify as "the one" for him. I remember with pride (lesson learned late) getting up immediately, and saying to him clearly, "You never, ever criticize someone for something they cannot help. Anymore than I should criticize you for going bald or having the after-effects of prostate surgery."
I was containing myself; I was angry. Because that after-effect was exactly what you'd imagine, and it would never have occurred to me to fling that, which he could not help, in his face. That was the moment I realized he was cruel and I viscerally wanted no more to do with him. I was grateful.
HOO-AHH!
Hops
I didn't mean it to sound like compliments about physical stuff are bad, just that, as you didn't seem comfortable with hearing he could barely restrain himself, it may be that he's got that mindset of 'women need to know they're pretty or they can't cope' (which I think is something our consumer driven society hammers into all of us from an early age to make us buy skin cream :) ). Kind of trying to give him an out - I'm hoping this all turns out peachy :) I get what you say about not being interested in comments about the age you look or your appearance in general; I must admit I tend to take comments about physical appearance with a pinch of salt because I think they're easy to make and can easily be insincere - whereas if someone compliments me on something I've done or a way I've coped with something, for example, I feel euphoric because I feel like they're really getting me - getting to know me, understanding me, seeing what I do and noticing it's not easy. But like I say, I think we're programmed to focus on the superficial stuff from a young age. And I have a tendency to over think things (really, Tup, you hide that so well ;) ). And well done for skipping over that other boyfriend. A list of reasons you don't measure up - he sounds like a charmer :) Zoiks. Carrie Fisher said something about criticism she received for daring to age over the last thirty years (when the Star Wars film came out) something about youth and beauty aren't achievements, they're just there. I forget exactly how she phrased it now but she was spot on, in my book :) xx
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Yes, he does do some unnecessary "managing" I think. It's like sometimes instead of just saying how he feels, he makes a pronouncement about it. Like, the executive speaks. I dunno, it's just his style. I'm not fishing for or needing a host of compliments. I'm very tuned into the fact that age is doing its job and neither he nor I are going to look like something to alert the media about when we get down to things.
I'd rather keep my focus on the vibes. If they keep growing and are kind and happy most of the time, the rest will be fine. Last night was a big relief because we just relaxed together after a while, like old shoes. It took me a long time to feel some ease but it was a nice feeling when I got there. His decision to give me space made all the difference. A friendly old-shoes with occasional dancing kind of physical relationship is a realistic notion, I think, and the idea doesn't grieve me. I'll enjoy intimacy with him, I hope, but I think the relationship will be built more out of things like movies and trips and just the day to day. I'll find out, one encounter at a time. Still too early to be sure.
I really am bored by anybody who focuses too much on appearance. So far, he hasn't. At our ages, it would just seem silly. I think the happiest older couples have found other things and adventures to focus on too, whereas when I was young, sex was the main event.
This thread has been amazing for me.
xxoo
Hops
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PS--And Tupp I thought your comment to your confused male friend was genius. You probably moved that man forward in his social life more than he could imagine!
I don't have any disagreement with your thoughts about compliments, or Amber's either really. I think every woman knows, because she's a unique pileup of experiences and inner monologue...how they work or don't work for her.
I think it's TONE and CONTEXT as much as wording, you know? "Hey beautiful!" whistled aggressively by a stranger when I'm alone on a sidewalk in heels is not a compliment. Doesn't make me feel happy and welcome in the world, but prey. "Hey beautiful!" in a delighted affectionate tone from someone I were loved by would definitely liberate my inner purr. "Hubba-hubba!" would work well too, Amber! :lol:
(B's remark about the age-number, 7 years younger than I am, was...okay. Hmm, maybe that was an engineer compliment. I keep forgetting some people think in numbers...) :lol:
Love to you, and were I there I'd be fixing tea and looking forward to a long yak in your parlor --I'd probably talk you to sleep--and maybe a game with your boy. Consider it done in the metaphysical sense!
xo
Hops
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PS--And Tupp I thought your comment to your confused male friend was genius. You probably moved that man forward in his social life more than he could imagine!
I don't have any disagreement with your thoughts about compliments, or Amber's either really. I think every woman knows, because she's a unique pileup of experiences and inner monologue...how they work or don't work for her.
I think it's TONE and CONTEXT as much as wording, you know? "Hey beautiful!" whistled aggressively by a stranger when I'm alone on a sidewalk in heels is not a compliment. Doesn't make me feel happy and welcome in the world, but prey. "Hey beautiful!" in a delighted affectionate tone from someone I were loved by would definitely liberate my inner purr. "Hubba-hubba!" would work well too, Amber! :lol:
(B's remark about the age-number, 7 years younger than I am, was...okay. Hmm, maybe that was an engineer compliment. I keep forgetting some people think in numbers...) :lol:
Love to you, and were I there I'd be fixing tea and looking forward to a long yak in your parlor --I'd probably talk you to sleep--and maybe a game with your boy. Consider it done in the metaphysical sense!
xo
Hops
Aw, Hopsie, that would be heaven - although we may have to talk in separate rooms so I don't give you my cold :)
Yes, tone and context is exactly it. There's a big difference between a nice comment from someone that you care about and some random shouting at you in the street. And I think as I've got older I've just found myself yearning for deep conversations, interesting interchanges that make me think, whereas when I was younger I was always in such a rush I tended to avoid men who wanted to talk at length. Maybe it's just to do with growing up at different rates - if a middle aged man is still thinking like a nineteen year old would it won't gel with a middle aged woman who's changed and grown over the years. You're right, it's your unique experiences - I'm really drawn to people who want to know what my unique experiences are (and who are willing or able to share theirs with me) :)
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I swear, when I take my ADD med I can write forever, so this is a loooong ramble.
B will be meeting my dearest friends tonight, 12 years older. Like B, they are more conservative than I am (old-school courtesies, widespread civic commitments, fairly traditional gender roles--I think we've voted similarly, though). I am way more llifestyle-liberal (60's history i.e., sexdrugsrock'nroll, anti-authority, feminism). They are better human beings than I will ever hope to be. Their liberality is in loving generously, without fear, and with sacrifice. They are deeply religious, never prosyletized me one bit despite my agnosticism, and simply live out their religion. They adopted two children with disabilities, always had refugees living in their spare bedrooms, volunteer seriously (I'm more talk than action) and adopted me too, when I was a sad divorcing neighbor who needed a semblance of family.
They've continued to care about me throughout divorce, my D's decline into mental illness, my loss of parents, brother and other family, and financial troubles. They stay over on their way to see their own D once or twice a year. After some terrible events in my town last summer I went straight to them for a few days of comfort.
Here's my question for y'all this morning. I know that they know what goodness is because they embody it (though they'd never say so). So I'm eager to see what they think of B when we have dinner together tonight. They also practice continual forgiveness of others because it's a core religious principle.
I don't think it's reasonable to put the responsibility on a few friends' impressions and worry theirs may be "too positive" anyway because of their default practice of loving and accepting everyone. If it'd be revealing, I'd ask them to really assess B's character as honestly as they can based on the first impression of a few hours. What I wonder is if their kindness might cause them to overlook masking behavior on his part, or to reinterpret it in the kindest light? (I've seen in my family the downside or "blinding" effect of patriarchal religion when it skates past abusive or oppressive behavior in males.) Or whether because they care for me, they'll look at him more deeply than they otherwise might, and perceive subtle red flags I miss?
I ask because there are just two things, really, that have given me serious pause about B so far. We have moved past them mostly, and he's made a kind of about-face. The first was the sexist "joke" he shared (that diner-type restaurants hire the "ugliest women", his good buddy said, ha ha ha). The second was the night I declined to ask him in and his kissing/touching suddenly got angry and aggressive.
Something to bear in mind is that when I told him how I felt about the sexist joke (that he was dissing an exhausted blue-collar woman who likely had two jobs and, given the affordable housing shortage in this area, may have to drive an hour to get to work) -- he said with no squirreling, I was being a jerk. The second thing, which killed my attraction temporarily, he said he would not do again (pressure me to go faster than I wished) and the last time we were together, he kept his word.
In both of these instances, when I spoke up about things that had disturbed me, he changed them promptly. I think that is a very good thing!
What I don't know, because of my history of overlooking red flags and judging poorly who'd be an appropriate mate, is whether his changes were just to move us along and get a woman installed in his life asap, or whether they're a sign of a person who really does want to grow, offer me his best self and build happiness.
I could boil this post down into something simple, and y'all have already given me incredible, astute guidance. So if you're sick of offering insights to apply, you're off the hook! Truly.
What it boils down to is reflecting more clearly this morning that my real issue is trust. Of myself as well as him. How do I know that despite external, political and social differences, I can trust this person at his core? The two "bad things" were red flags for me and I do respect my judgement about those two events. I felt very solid in my awareness that those were not okay for me. His responses, however, were entirely non-defensive and really surprised me. But can I trust them?
My second marriage was a Jekyll and Hyde experience that revealed to me that I'd missed a forest of red flags and there was serious damage in my mate, with consequences that were devastating to me (and my D).
So that's my baggage, which is blocking my view and clouding my lens.
I think just writing all this I know the answer: other people can't fix trust for me. I have to begin trusting that I've learned enough from my mistakes and that I have functioning insight and intuition sufficient to help me choose wisely. I need to believe in something. I know I believe in these friends' goodness (and in y'all's, god knows). And often I've gone it alone out of stubborn independence and made really crappy decisions for myself.
But I remember Tupp reminding me I've done some things in my life pretty intelligently. Maybe what's happening now is I'm trying to believe I've acquired enough emotional intelligence since divorcing in '95 that I actually could do a better job of it this time.
There sure is a lot of temptation -- a gentler life, a committed partner, less loneliness and worry, a bit of travel and some fun. My head-down march into old age alone and face its fearfulness, just because I've put my head down and marched into so many other very very hard situations .... is that just habit? Can I really let down my guard and let go a little? Let someone else offer me some protection and strength in this chapter?
Wow. Early morning Rx.
I love you guys. No need for novel-length responses...this is just me, my brain, and remembering the med, which if I applied it to my novel, would mean I'd be on chapter 10 by now!
xo
Hops
PS--So on impulse I just called him up and told him I had a big think this morning and kind of peeled away another layer of fear due to my past poor judgment. I told him I realized I've been asking myself whether maybe with him it'll be safe to risk more vulnerability, and that I'm trying to peel back another layer of armor. And that for some reason he's making me feel like taking that risk. Or something to that effect. He sounded really happy and told me he had a huge smile on his face. I heard joy in his voice. My inner pit bull can return, but it was a scary-nice moment.
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Oh, Hops, bless you, I hear and understand everything you've said, ADD meds or not! :)
Quick responses (and by that I mean I'm responding by my instincts rather than thinking too much about things because I find that usually works for me) -
I think your friends will likely love him and think he's wonderful, charming and a great match for you (which from many of the things you've written he is in many ways and at many times). I doubt they will pick up on subtle red flags; the only people I know who pick up on subtle signs are generally those who've been through eons of therapy, read every self help book going and worked on themselves endlessly. The signs of manipulation and control are so subtle that even explaining them to other people is difficult, because when you say he did/said x, y and z it never sounds like that big a deal (except it is!). So I'd be inclined to just enjoy the time with them and not pay too much mind to what they think about him.
What I think would be interesting - given his comments about being annoyed that you were talking about friends instead of about your relationship on the boob grabbing night - is to see how he interacts with your friends and how he is with you afterwards - is he snippy about them, does he seem agitated, does he feel he's due a reward now he's met them, etc etc. I think that might be more revealing than what your friends think of him.
With regards to trust - I think there's only so much trust anyone can give in a relationship. I think what you need to trust is your ability to see, focus, speak, take time to think and be true to yourself in these situations. Personally I find people I don't know very well making sexist/racist/pick your theme comments really off putting - some things can be said in jest to people you know well but when getting to know people I find I'm put off very quickly by people saying unpleasant things (and just saying them puts me off - why be unpleasant? It's not more effort to talk about something nice or make a nice comment). I know you are similar in that outlook, and equally know that he's of a different kind of personality (and generally one that hasn't had to cope with being on the receiving end of a lot of that sort of thing - white, male and affluent) so he may genuinely not have perceived what he said as being unpleasant. You've picked him up on the things you're not happy about and he's responded well. Maybe too well - again, I think the only way you'll know is to see how things play out. If there's a pattern of him saying or doing something, you having to address it, him apologising and then going on and doing the same thing again then that would be difficult to cope with. But equally, as you say, maybe he's just used to people not speaking up around him - he might be enjoying the challenge :)
So I think just keep on keeping on. Time, conversation, his friends, your friends, weekends, holidays, time at home, time away from home - I don't think people can keep facades up indefinitely so as time goes on I think you'll see whether he's open to learning and growing (with you) or whether he's just keeping you sweet so he gets what he wants quicker. I think just keep focusing on you - your pace, your heart, keeping yourself safe emotionally - it's hard when the carrot of not being alone for ever is dangled in front of you. It's easy to ignore the red flags because the alternative is nicer but I think you've been down that road before so I don't think you'll make that mistake again.
I'm keeping everything crossed! And hoping it's all good :)
Love Tup xx
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Thank you, (((Tupp)))!!!
That really helped; I'm lucky you were available so fast and your reply was reassuring. Mainly because you were back to reality and paying attention and actually trusting myself, whereas I was tying myself up in an elaborate ball of analysis plus fear.
I think when he told that joke he was casting about for something amusing since I'd been frustrated by the waitress. He described himself early on as someone who feels compelled to "fix things" (or as my T suspected, perhaps codependent), so maybe he was just blurting out something related to diners to distract me. He didn't seem to find it hilarious but he's not a natural joke teller, so passed on something a buddy had said. Stupid (and sexist) but not shocking. Maybe, too, he laughed along then because he's been stepped in macho culture and male dominated stuff his whole life.
What impressed me was how directly and simply he responded when I shared how I felt about the joke. He said, "I was being a jerk" in a tone that sounded real. He didn't deflect, call me an over-sensitive feminazi, he just owned it. Same later when I explained the resistance/anxiety I felt when he over-rode my retreat from touch (he wasn't scary, just tuned out). He owned that too and did something about it.
If both of those reactions are an indicator of character, actually I may be quite lucky. He definitely has lived a life of responsibility (won a spot at the Air Force Academy, stayed married and faithful for 46 years despite wife's serious issues, continues to counsel his former partners in business, is in close touch with daughter and granddaughters). It seems as though honesty and loyalty are big priorities.
How he's reacted to meeting my other friends has been friendly and open, and he's had nothing snide to say afterward. (He did make explicit how much he liked my alpha-gf but perhaps not her snarky husband, but wasn't nasty about the hub.) He was gracious with another couple and bonded well with the males there, though he didn't have much chance to talk to the women (only one other than my gf and me).
So given who my visiting friends we'll see tonight are, can't imagine he won't respond well.
Thank you for reminding me to calm down. After I shared increased vulnerability with him this morning, I reacted internally with an anxiety spurt. But given my past I think that's pretty normal, not an indicator that it was dangerous.
Spent all morning processing all this and now will be nearly late to work and have to tidy the house in a panic just before my friends arrive. What else is new?
Have a great day, everybody. More later.
love,
Hops
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I look forward to reading more later, Hops, and I think the way you are managing and processing all of this (and responding to different situations) is completely normal, given everything you've been through over the years (and for what it's worth, I don't think anything you're feeling is abnormal - anxiety at the start of a new relationship is something I think most people can identify with). I am hoping all signs are good ones; I know I am in the 'take it all with a pinch of salt and wait and see what happens' category but I think you know yourself well enough to spot things - you've been very observant and very honest with him (and yes, I think working in an all male environment would lead to different sorts of jokes - I find the conversation if I'm out with a group of mostly male friends is very different to a mixed group or if I'm chatting one on one to a male friend, and the same goes for all female groups - there are things we feel more comfortable joking about in different types of company). I've got my fingers crossed for good things :) xx
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Hi Hops:
Two things....
Trusting again doesn't have to include huge risk. I understand the harsh effects if poor choices regarding what turns out to be an unsafe husband and father of our children. That's about worst case scenario in romance.
At this time of life, it's more about risk management, without limiting opportunity for growth, and opportunity.
You may not have control over who and what B is, but you do have control over your intuition, and what you risk as you navigate this journey.
Best case....B is attached to you in all ways, loyal, and driven to give as well as receive in a recipicol lifelong pairing out if respect and live for you.
I can picture many in betweens, but worst case scenario involves his being a Jekyll Hide pd, with you limiting the harm through prudent decisions designed to mitigate the negative possibilities you suffered full force years before.
Looking back at red flags dismissed, and the more painful regrets.... remember hard won lessons bring wisdom. You will likely not repeat the old mistakes, and can see the jagged places that snagged your heart and soul, changed your world view into one of needing a particular outcome, that wasn't possible no matter how badly you wanted it.
Being able to walk away gives us power and agency over ourselves and our futures. Releasing expectations and embracing truth without judgement is safety, imo. Worst case you ventured out, found attraction again, rolled around in it like a teenager, learned about what you want more, and less of. Laughter, and belif in yourself can rule these days, no matter what comes.
I wouldn't outright ask your friends to vet this guy. I'd let them know I was doing it, with eyes wide open, hoping for the best but unsure what will come.
That way they'll adopt your curious stance, without judgement or pressure, and likely engage in constructive conversation afterwards....seems natural ly, not dutifully or as a job they could fail at if things go badly either way.
In the meantime you stay busy with a life you enjoy and embrace as priority. You aren't so focused on this man that you lose yourself. This is a casual inquiry, not a life or death situation you've hung your self esteem on. You're going to come through this decision stringer, better informed about yourself and B.
Lean into discovery.....blast fear, it only slows you down and makes you feel heavier in heart, mind and soul.
I hope you and B go dancing, Hops. I hope you see shows and sightsee. Give him enough trust to show you who he is, without risking things you can't do without. Ask him if he wants to go an adventure with you.....he will. Laugh. Be busy. Plan great things.
Believe him when he tells and shows you who he is.
Even if it's not OK......
It's OK.
:: nodding::
Lighter
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Late to the party...
Hops - of the 2 things that bothered/bother you - the first isn't a dealbreaker; it's something verbal he tossed out in an awkward moment. The second MIGHT be, and because it did happen once and you & he talked it through, you can now trust yourself to catch any repeat performances. That should allow you to extend a little bit more trust to B... and relax, knowing you WILL catch any whiff of a pattern.
I have big trust issues too. About different things - but I KNOW my inability to easily trust others is due to a deep-seated distrust of my self. My instinctive way of dealing with that is NOT helpful, even if it is effective. We'll talk about that more elsewhere.
Waiting to hear how your evening went.
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Thank you ALL for getting me through the pre-dinner panic attack.
It went well! My friends were impressed and B was absolutely lovely to them.
He clearly does care about making a good impression on people so important to me.
As we were leaving he suggested to them that he and I should come to their city to visit.
So she said to me later, gosh he really is moving it forward!
And I said, I have my foot on the brake....
But it was nice. He emailed this morning that he'd dreamed of us sleeping in each
other's arms with "nothing but peace and joy."
Soooo nice. And then....
He sent another email with one of those dumb collations of joke images from the internet, and two of them were: 1) racist (a "Detroit bumper sticker" showing 3 incarcerated males and beside them, 1 female with about a dozen children. Implication -- black.) It was ugly and ignorant about all the problems of African Americans, not the least of which is incarceration rates and lack of jobs.
2) Sexist. A har-har photoshopped image of that pic of Hillary Clinton greeting Harvey Weinstein and Weinstein's face has been turned to the camera and the image changed to him pushing HER away...and the caption is Harvey saying with a big grin, "Gotta draw the line somewhere!"
B's note to me was, "You'll find these make you laugh and smile!" Clearly, thought he was sharing something delightful. Those two actually made me sad. And moreso, because he saw no issues.
So despite the love-bombing...Hops dunno.
I feel exhausted at the prospect of explaining empathy to someone who has clearly been moving in right-wing mental circles, even if he didn't vote for the current president.
I dunno what that'd imply. On the other hand, he told a story about how disturbed he was about a local muslim business owner whose proud photo of his grandfather, in his robes and dress, caused someone to come in, rest his hand on a visible handgun, and tell him "You need to take that photo down because we don't want that kind of thing around here...." B was not happy about that.
(So how does he miss the meaning of racist and/or sexist images he just sent?). I don't get it. Maybe the local guy is real to him since he's met him, but women who are sexually harrassed and one who was demonized beyond belief with pure hatred when she ran for office, and anonymous black men in jail and inner-city black women...are just cartoons to him. Not people.)
Oy. I can't and don't want to be thought police but when he shares stuff that overt, I feel as though maybe it's a moment I should speak to. Don't know how.
Likewise, not sure how I can reconcile the pleasures of being wanted and so forth...with a core disconnect about empathy.
Still thinking. Still dunno, but I don't feel panicky any more. For now...
love and more thanks,
Hops
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Oh Hops! He is a complex one. Humour is an odd thing; different things being funny to different people. If those pics were part of a larger collection could it be that he didn't actually scroll through the whole thing himself, maybe that the first few made him laugh and he assumed they were all similar (playing Devil's Advocate here!).
I think the thing with sexism, racism and all the other isms that exist is that they do take different forms for different people. It's common here in the UK for someone to say "I'm not racist but".......... and then say something racist. I think for some people racism is about calling people names or beating them up for their colour. I don't think things like making assumptions about people, ignoring that they are treated differently, albeit subtly and quietly in some cases, acknowledging that some people have access to fewer opportunities because of their colour/gender/ sexuality/whatever count as an 'ism' in some people's minds. Shades of what's okay and what's not. My sister and her partner's family are very racist (to my mind), but I know if I took my Indian friend round to their house they'd welcome her with open arms and treat her like one of the family. To them they're not racist because they aren't mean to people to their faces. To me that's not enough. My sister and I voted differently for the Leave Referendum (about leaving Europe). My main concern was that life for disabled people will get even worse in this country if we aren't in the European Union. When I voiced that to my sister she replied that things weren't great (for disabled people) anyway. To me that is someone who regards disabled people as second class citizens who just don't deserve or even need the same rights as people without disabilities and someone who completely misses the point about equality. But if you asked my sister whether she thought disabled people should be treated the same as people without disabilities she'd say of course they should. So I think it's different levels for different people.
So, I dunno. From everything you have written he seems like a nice guy with a crap sense of humour. Maybe that will level out as time goes on. Maybe you could watch a comedy show that you find funny so he's sees more of what makes you tick. I think it's still a case of see what happens - will his good points outweigh his sometimes naff jokes and clumsy way of handling things? There will always be something that someone finds irritating about the other person - I think it's just a case of where the line is. So I've no idea where things are now! I'm glad the meal went well though, and that he got on well with your friends. xx
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What would you do if you received these right wing chain mail from anyone else? I typically deleted them until I lost patience quickly, then politely asked to be removed from their mailing list on the chain.
I've seen very pointed responses to racist sexist jokes, but you'll want to handle this one face to face, bc you don't want B' s group of racist sexist friends lobbying against you over this.
B has some flaws, and you have to figure out how deep they go. What can you live with? Is he capable of self reflection, and empathy? Those are pretty important, Hops.
And.....he dreamed if you sleeping in each other's arms with nothing but peace and joy.
I'm tempted to toss a little red flag on that one, just bc.
I want you to have what you want. Just do it with both eyes open. I say this bc I'm more likely to bs myself, and practice DIM thinking regarding past mate's character flaws. That's a terrible strategy, ime.
Know what you're in for.
That your friends seemed to like him means he's not so obtuse he's sharing these topics in mixed company. Maybe he hangs with people who believe these things. Maybe he hasn't questioned them. Maybe he's just on a mailing list and hasn't thought through.
If he's spending hours looking this stuff up, and starting the chains..... that's, perhaps, different than getting tacked on to an extraverted racist's chain mail list.
I'm wondering what B will do if you bring the topic up. What will he identify as the "problem" in need of resolving? Your views on the topic, or the very serious cultural problems that need to be addressed by everyone? What does he think would help?
Maybe he'll answer that question reflexively, and give you all the information you need.
Maybe he'll give it some thought for the first time, and surprise to you both with his answer.
Lighter
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Sigh...
You're getting the grand tour of B, warts & all, Hops. You're one more level of trust closer to his inner circle, if he's taking the risk of sharing this with you. It's probably something he's sharing to see how YOU react to it. A fishing expedition to find out more about you and how personally you take politics, as they're currently being popularly defined. Are you flexible enough to accept that he may hold different ideas on topics - even diametrically opposed to yours - and still feel comfortable, trusting and attracted to him?
This is something I think a LOT about, because I don't want to limit my circle of friends, acquaintances, and potential beaus to one political affiliation - if there is a preponderance of other reasons I'm interested. To my way of thinking it's the height of prejudice to immediately dismiss another person simply because they hold different political (or religious, or whatever) ideas... UNLESS, their whole identity is wrapped up in that affiliation and there is no other dimension to them. Then, it's a case (again, for me) that the person has self-limited their thinking/interactions to what's derisively known as the "echo chamber". For me, it doesn't matter, which of the two sides they've chosen - it's that they only SEE two sides, that's the problem.
BOTH sides are indulging in some pretty mean, petty and cruel jibes/criticisms of each other. Just like Junior High cliques. That behavior (to me) prevents the possibility of finding out just how much the PEOPLE who are supporting opposing sides to an issue, really do have in common. At Thanksgiving, it was easy to see that Matt's mom and I shared a lot of similar, hard-core, basic and fundamental values... even though we come at an issue from the opposite ends of the political spectrum. For all I'm talking about trust & anxiety in new situations - as the most conservative person in that whole group, I didn't feel threatened, out on a limb, or like I just didn't belong there.
So, the question is: is B giving you a test? To see if you can tolerate, put up with and overlook what, to you, is clearly a "wart"... but just as clearly, isn't a defining characteristic of his personality (as far as we know). Is he curious about your beliefs and opinions here... and this is his way of avoiding coming right out & asking? (Then, I'd wonder why he couldn't just bring up the topic directly...)
Or was it just sharing that side of himself, because he feels comfy enough with you to do that? Releasing the outcome of whatever reaction you might have? (ie, not thinking at all that it might offend)
I have a feeling I'm going to babbling a lot today. But back later... I do have things to accomplish today.
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Y'all are amazing. You offer such a rich field of angles, possibilities, nuances and intuitions through your unique lenses and experiences. All your brains, all your brains! (said the zombie). In our tiny VESMB crowd, I'm experiencing crowd-sourced intelligence as truly powerful, inspiring, hopeful, growth-stimulating, on and on. Thank you.
Tupp, you view him (and me!) in such a forgiving and compassionate light. You have a "light" touch with judgment and that's really helpful. I scream away judgily in my head and react intensely to various signs and symbols, and along you come offering a kinder, broader view. Complex! And naff.
This cut right to it for me, and is so perceptive:
I don't think things like making assumptions about people, ignoring that they are treated differently, albeit subtly and quietly in some cases, acknowledging that some people have access to fewer opportunities because of their colour/gender/ sexuality/whatever count as an 'ism' in some people's minds. Shades of what's okay and what's not.
I also think your raising the possibility that he didn't even scroll all the way through the images was helpful. It's always useful when my Pavlov-culture-panic bells go off to hit pause for the possibility that what I think was happening didn't happen at all. That said, the general tenor of the jokes collection was mean. Somebody wrote something about "heartland hostility" coating the internet, and I got what they meant. (Not really a geographical point.) But I don't know if it's his own hostility toward various people/classes/tribes, or just a carryover from the environments he's lived in.
B told me something interesting that I hadn't quite figured out, because he is so pleasant and personable around people. He's actually a shy introvert. Didn't dawn on me. For example, some of the things he does that I've worried are controlling might be, or might alternatively be projections of how he makes HIMSELF feel more comfortable. He frequently asks about "dress code" when we're just meeting friends for dinner. Should I dress...casually? (I stopped giving a hoot about what people think about what I wear decades ago.) And I'm invited to a NYEve dinner at friends of his now. So he starts saying something like, I don't know whether you'll feel comfortable about this, but it's not just my friends I've told you about, but their children and some people I don't know anything about may be there... And I thought that was odd, and told him "Don't worry....I really don't ever need protection, socially" and he went, oh okay, I get it, it's just that I'm such an introvert... Then a light went on. Huh, it was really helpful to suddenly get that. (He's so socially smooth I had not thought about E vs I, and his "power" and success made me not perceive "shy" until he told me he was.)
Off topic except that I started imagining (err per Lighter, hope this isn't rationalizing bad behavior) that shy people sometimes can go along with some aggressive humor or things they might not generate themselves because it's part of male bonding, for example. Dunno yet, but that's another nuance that might help, if it's true. Time will tell. He could be both. Shy and controlling. Bigoted (oh hope that's too strong) and kind to a local muslim. As you said: complex.
Thanks, Tupp! What a blessing you are.
love
Hops
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Lighter, every time I read your counsel I feel confident.
Or, you conjure up an unfamiliar confidence in me. To try on. At least try it on.
You tell me I can observe. I can remain my own emotional center and not give it away.
I can experience play, laughter and risk while thinking.
(You also make me feel smarter and more perceptive than I actually am.)
Your touch of wariness is strengthening, and your reminder to enjoy in the present anyway because I can handle the future whichever way it goes, is heartening.
I feel as though I'm looking out-of-focus at a map and you're just saying beside me, well if we take this route we would wind up there, and if we take this one, there. Overall, look at all the options there are.
Thank you! (x100)
I'm curious why his romantic pronouncement inspired a little red flag "just bc..." I liked that you said that but don't know why I did.
love,
Hops
PS--the truth is if I got a cruel-joke right-wing email from anyone else, I'd likely not want to continue being close to that person. That's why I'm feeling some distress about this. (It's the "mean" and not the specific politics that matter to me. Policy differences between moderates are fine. And one of my best friends has watched/trusted a right-wing fake-news network forever. We just don't go there. I dunno how long one could avoid "there" in an intimate relationship. Wish I did. I keep thinking of Mary Matalin and James Carville....)
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Amber, thank you.
This is really, really wise-wise-wise-wise...(that's my echo...). Busted, and fairly reminded:
To my way of thinking it's the height of prejudice to immediately dismiss another person simply because they hold different political (or religious, or whatever) ideas... UNLESS, their whole identity is wrapped up in that affiliation and there is no other dimension to them. Then, it's a case (again, for me) that the person has self-limited their thinking/interactions to what's derisively known as the "echo chamber". For me, it doesn't matter, which of the two sides they've chosen - it's that they only SEE two sides, that's the problem.
This was a really good question for me to focus on: Are you flexible enough to accept that he may hold different ideas on topics
The answer is yes. Definitely. My mind is elastic enough and my curiosity and humanity big enough that I really do care about learning how another "side" approaches topics, problems, and solutions. No doubt. Listening, extending respect...in my view are the only possible cure to the horrible divisions that are breaking us in two as a society.
But.
I'm not sure I'm flexible enough to accept that he may hold different ideas on people. How one treats them but also how one thinks about: classes of people who are "other", people who are vulnerable, people who are different, people who don't see the world as you do. It's not practical policy questions that concern me about the reactions I've had over these things, it's the theme of contempt or lack of compassion. ("Ugly" women working in diners, Harvey Weinstein rejecting a hated female with a hideous smirk, black human beings drawn literally as stick figures...).
It's like being a humorless prude. I am not a humorless prude! But I do feel a little like one when I view things like those images. I instantly see the object of the crude derision as a human being in a particular context. And I am saddened when another person doesn't uphold their humanity. Particularly when it's a powerful, wealthy, male, white person finding the belittlement of the "other" hilarious.
Remains to be seen whether B genuinely finds these things hilarious, and I'm more than ready to find out that he does not. But it's a thing, because it's cropped up two or three times. Just a thing I need to find out more about.
If he were actually "testing" me, politics-wise, I'd be shocked he was so strategic. But I'd also be completely comfortable with failing such a test. It would be such a manipulative way of learning more about me. I'm not thinking he's really that sly. But he is very smart. Good thing to ponder.
I'm thinking a gentle and direct conversation about it, because he's responding so far really wonderfully to probing conversations....will be the best way to deal with it. I think I can just tell him what I thought I saw (the theme of other-ing and contempt in humor) and how that doesn't fit with how I experience him personally, but what's it about for him, does he think?
I believe he'll give me answers, and not deflect. I truly do think he'll do that.
Not at a NYEve party, but another time soon, I would like to know.
Lastly, about humor. Truth in jest. One thing that makes me happy is that he finds me funny. He laughs at my idiosyncratic wit (my poet-brain...when I come up with specific and weird images for stuff). When I told him his whiskers felt like "little redwoods that had been cut with a rusty chainsaw" he cracked up. When I said about my body that "I'm tapioca from the collarbone down" he cracked up. Metaphors and quirky perceptions that bubble out of me when we're being playful, he really likes. Or my deadpan delivery. Dunno but it's pleasing to have that appreciated.
(Nothing a goof-brain, particularly a writer, likes better than making another person laugh...)
Thanks again for the challenges and the incisive questions, Amber. Hoover is ON. (And I admit I see whataboutism everywhere.)
hugs
Hops
PS--It's not lost on me that B loved a "bleeding-heart liberal" enough to stay married to her for 40 years. And that he's considering another one!
PPS---Aaand...this article felt to me like a wise conglomerated VESMB post for the nation, so apt:
https://www.washingtonpost.com/lifestyle/magazine/polls-show-americans-distrust-the-media-but-talk-to-them-and-its-a-very-different-story/2017/12/27/ed9bbabe-ce3b-11e7-81bc-c55a220c8cbe_story.html?hpid=hp_hp-top-table-main_sullivan-810am%3Ahomepage%2Fstory&utm_term=.3e4fca51ae0f (https://www.washingtonpost.com/lifestyle/magazine/polls-show-americans-distrust-the-media-but-talk-to-them-and-its-a-very-different-story/2017/12/27/ed9bbabe-ce3b-11e7-81bc-c55a220c8cbe_story.html?hpid=hp_hp-top-table-main_sullivan-810am%3Ahomepage%2Fstory&utm_term=.3e4fca51ae0f)
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Given his personal interaction with that one person he mentioned, I'll bet he discerns between actual "people" - and the stereotype cartoonization of various groups, or classes of people. One reason humans stereotype in the first place is to over-generalize and dehumanize. Even the most self-aware of us do this from time to time - and NO, it's not a good thing about us. But it is short-hand, for quickly understanding something important about that group. Like, tech/professional, CEO level, powerful, wealthy white men, for instance. Sorry; truly I am... but you keep bringing it up, so is that in itself something you're wary of... and how many have you known personally? (Please don't count former N-boss; he's in his own category!! LOL) I know how scrupulously conscientious you are about not participating in things you despise, that "people" do... and how you tend to fall on being empathetic to each and every one. So, I figure you've already checked that about yourself 26 times already.
There is as much peer, and media/social pressure these days to stereotype as there is anything else you can name. And we do, all of us, fall prey to the pressure from time to time, in insidiously subtle ways. I catch myself a LOT (and Holly waits to pounce on me if I don't).
For all I know, maybe he was poking fun at the obvious stereotype in the memes. Your plan sounds sensible to me. If I were in your shoes, I'd simply point out that I'm really sick of all the mean - and pointless, except to shame - so-called humor out there. No matter it's viewpoint. Much as I was a fan of Oliphant and some political cartoonists - the modern version leans a lot more vile - and I've had my fill of it too. I don't share those things; it's like spreading gossip or just talking nasty behind someone's back. I don't like encouraging others to do so, either... or tacitly approving of it. So I occasionally take people for task for it online. (Not that anyone listens to me...)
So, it sounds like - all thinking about the relationship aside - you're FEELING a bit more relaxed & comfortable with him. That's sounding pretty good, despite all the other stuff.
What did Gramma always say? If you can't find something nice to say - don't say anything at all! There's a lot of good advice for modern society in Gramma's old sayings. LOL.
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Hops, I'm kind of wondering as well if he might be at the Asperger's end of the autistic spectrum? I'm kind of always hyper alert to signs because of my son (and to be honest you can see signs in most people if you look hard enough) but it did cross my mind that the sort of misplaced humour that you've mentioned can sometimes be an Aspie trait? Along with the concern about what the dress code is, that there might be people at the party that he doesn't know (so he's assuming you'd struggle with that because he might) - they're the kind of social cues and situations that some people on the autistic spectrum struggle with. It might be that he doesn't really get the 'jokes' but that he's learnt them (and by that I mean someone else has told them to him and said they're funny so he's accepted that because he doesn't really get it?) Does that make sense? With his engineering, uber logical mindset it might be that his social side is a bit off kilter (and yours is very finely tuned so you're probably picking up on more than some people would anyway). I just thought I'd throw that in in case he's just kind of copying something he's been told is funny because his funny bone isn't highly developed? Maybe after time your kind of humour will rub off on him and he'll start to mirror that rather than these sort of old boy's networks comments that he's maybe picked up through work or at the golf course? Just another possibility (as if you didn't have enough to think about) :) xx
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Thanks, Amber. And busted again. I do have some stereotypical fears of powerful white male businessmen and how they operate in the world. Or judgments that can be knee-jerk and unfair. Gimme a Warren Buffet or a Bill Gates any day; they're welcome to the wealth because look what they do with it! But some others..... My first boyfriend's family owned a summer home (450 acres) now owned by the president's family. My first love relationship was spent in an absurdly wealthy environment where I met the family's friends, most of whom were uber-CEO white males. They were personally charming. I remember bf's father telling me one morning (at their "regular" house, a huge pile on the grounds of a NY-area country club), "Hey, c'mon over here and meet my neighbor, Joe Hellman!" Turned out to be the Hellman of Hellman's Mayonnaise. He was very pleasant to me. His house was insane. I got used to being around it. But always, secretly inside my odd little head, the outsider...the poet...absorbing it all from a very different sensibility. (I broke up with bf later and my college pals were horrified that I "turned my back on millions...")
The county where I live is among the wealthiest in this country, papered with retired CEOs and many uber-rich. I have known a few and observed many in the community.
My anxiety about it comes directly from gut-level feminism that began (consciously) at 16 when my state university, run by an all-male (and of course, all white) wealthy board including CEOs ...by policy refused to allow me (or any girl) to attend as a liberal arts undergraduate because I was female. It changed later, but that painful awakening changed my view of how the world works, how skewed and wrong male domination/entitlement was/is. (Black males were allowed in first, a couple of years later, they let women in.) I recognized that sexism was exactly the same as racism, and my sense of solidarity with all oppressed people, and loathing of injustice, kicked in. In all the decades since, nothing has shown me that hyper-masculine (adolescent masculine) mostly-white culture in its pursuit of power, wealth and domination hasn't destroyed the environment, broken the vulnerable, and allowed the retrograde back-swing into worsened racism and misogyny that has been horrifyingly on parade in the last few years. Some very close to my door. It's toxic, terrifying and spreading. Oh, those handsome Aryans. But hardworking men now unemployed, sliding down and desperate for a break? I'm grieving for them big time. It's not their fault, what they hoped in.
I love men. I'm straight as a stick. I have loved some ambitious type A+ men. As individuals, I can love anyone. But as the culture, and government are and have behaved, I have become very convinced that having 90% of power in male (here, mostly white wealthy male now) hands is very bad for humanity. For all of us.
I am eager to go back to Oslo to see my friend and his wife. Norway is the most egalitarian country in the world, gender wise. (It's also pretty homogeneous so doesn't have to deal with as much tribal conflict as our diverse culture does.) But Norway also ranks over and over as the happiest country in the world. That's real despite their recent struggles with the far-right anti-immigrant movement in Europe and that ghastly terrorist on the island a few years ago. And I don't believe the happiness is unrelated to their feminist (egalitarian) culture. It's not a coincidence. A feminist culture is humanist and better for everyone and they've been smart enough to figure that out. The CEO at my former job married a Norwegian engineer and told me they would time children so their babies are born there, because it's the kind of society they believe all children should live in. The vast majority of Norwegian men there are just as committed to true gender equality as women are. That's unimaginable, here.
To them, Harvey Weinstein sneering and laughing at Hillary Clinton would be unimaginably unfunny, given the reality of his vicious behavior, as would be the "Detroit bumper sticker" and its vicious dehumanizing of the disenfranchised. They and many others around the world are shocked, horrified and saddened about the infections of sexism and racism that have burst again to the surface in our country that they have for so long loved and seen as the light of the world.
It's so hard for me not to take it personally now and then. I know I should always have the long view and remember it's not about me. I do try. But I really love this country. Pretty much love every human being, in the abstract anyway.
The truth about me though is that when I see institutional and systemic cruelty and injustice, growing up in the South and living in the world as it is...I don't see those policies being defended by many who are other than white, wealthy and male. (And overall, earning 30% more than women with equally significant responsibilities.) Things are changing, slowly, and I still have to hope for the better.
And I just have to hope that those little B "issues" don't have any connection at all with him being indifferent about systemic cruelty and injustice that I see as though my eyes have been scalded.
I read so much my eyes ache (not always in my bubble) and more and more it seems to be coming to the surface that many more people on all sides are actually seeing -- this male-skewed, white-skewed system is not working. We've got to include and respect and be compassionate to the "other", whether they're female, PoC, LGBTQ, immigrant, whatever. We've got to eagerly welcome them into leadership. If we don't, we are just going to carry on trashing each other, suppressing, shooting, warring, imprisoning, despoiling. And sneering.
I don't sneer. I do lead with my heart most of the time. And I am with B, as best I can. We've talked twice today and I'm eager to see him again. Can't wait to put my arms around him because there's something happening that is tender and good.
Just have to talk to him about the damn images he sent, and you have suggested the perfect way to do that.
Thanks, hon. Forgive the ranting. I'm trying not to pollute us but this relationship is making me face how the personal is political (remember that 60s chestnut?). People matter more to me than winning but it's been heartbreaking to see our country lose so much because of that kind of mob hatred. But as Dr. Phil would say, do you wanna be happy or do you wanna be right? Sometimes I'm not sure.
I'm not a mob, just me. And I'm so lucky that you listen. I truly appreciate your perspectives and your clarity. The way you articulate your thoughtfulness expands mine, and knowing you expands my heart.
love,
Hops
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Tupp, that is a brilliant question!
I don't know, but something about his social stuff does seem to carry a suggestion of faintly aspie-unaware traits. Who knows if he'd be officially at a first rung of spectrum, but it's still such a good reminder of how diverse we are. I am often shocked by how biological so many things can be, and it's often true.
So maybe that is really part of it:
in case he's just kind of copying something he's been told is funny because his funny bone isn't highly developed?
Your insights always take me to such a humane place. THANK YOU. You keep coming up with compassionate, intimate curiosity about what makes someone tick, what subtle streams of biology, brain, surroundings, experiences...might make them the way they are. In the shadings and nuances, not just the big boxes I bang into. And whether these kinds of questions are spot on or off base, just wanting to know the answers, wanting to see the explanations, is kindness.
Do you know that the #1 thing I hate about death isn't dying, it's not finding out what happens! I want --crave-- to know what we learn about people in the future, about what makes/shapes/hurts/heals us. I want to be a fly on the wall in 200 years. Well, a fly that can read....
In doing that, you are offering light. Light into places where I'm fearful, and your perspectives offer me over and over a reminder that there is cold, harsh, unforgiving light...and then there's warm, gentle light that comes from a generous heart and expansive mind. Like Tupp light.
Thank you. It amazes me how this kind of thing comes so often from someone who's had it so hard. You are such a strong human being. Strong hearted. Compared to what you've dealt with I've been swimming in an ocean of fortune. It's not fair but I can see the real riches glowing in your life. I think they're spiritual and ever expanding.
love xxxx
Hops
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Hope I have the nerve to share this article with B.
(Head shoots back down into sand....)
https://www.washingtonpost.com/outlook/2017/12/29/a374a268-ea6d-11e7-8a6a-80acf0774e64_story.html?hpid=hp_no-name_opinion-card-d%3Ahomepage%2Fstory&utm_term=.2bb8fdb67346
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Hope I have the nerve to share this article with B.
(Head shoots back down into sand....)
https://www.washingtonpost.com/outlook/2017/12/29/a374a268-ea6d-11e7-8a6a-80acf0774e64_story.html?hpid=hp_no-name_opinion-card-d%3Ahomepage%2Fstory&utm_term=.2bb8fdb67346
It might be a good way to discuss race issues (that I know are important to you) - without leading the conversation - to get an idea of whether he does have very different views on race to yourself, or whether he just has an off sense of humour. It would be interesting to see what he thinks without you prompting him (by pre-empting it with "I didn't like the racial stereotypes in those jokes you sent me) to get a good idea of what he really thinks about these issues - or if he even thinks about them at all? It's probably a good barometer of his feelings on this matter (it reminds me a bit of those essay questions in college that were simply "x finds humour in y, but is it all it seems? Discuss").
I get what Skep is saying about not dismissing people with different views to our own or small aspects of someone's personality not being a barrier to them being great for us in other ways - but equally I am quite sensitive to that subtle sort of discrimination that seeps through society and it bothers me when people, at a very fundamental level, feel that some people are more important than others. It's all about perspective, isn't it, what are the deal breakers, what is just a mildly irritating point as oppose to a humdinger that will make life together intolerable in time. So yes, I think it would be interesting to send to B with a note saying, "I found this interesting - what do you think?" - and then see what happens? xx
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O/T musings...
I was "there" and I was of an age to be "aware" when the bra burnings happened. And I (actually Twiggy) thought it was the best thing since sliced Wonder bread. So, over the course of my childhood I went from "girls don't belong in Dad's garage, learning to weld" to seeing it become possible for women to someday be taken seriously as soldiers. (Took the rest of my life for that happen - and I'm NOT happy about HOW that's been done, but it has happened.)
But I also saw how a new cage was built around women with feminism... and what it has done to men.
I was "there" and "aware" when the Civil Rights act was passed -- and for the horrors that happened after. A kid that age isn't supposed to ask the kinds of questions I asked - and am STILL asking about the human condition/our humanity almost requiring non-perfection; social organization and political systems. I do pass judgement on what has happened in that 40-50 years... with the caveat that not all the evidence is in yet to conclusively "prove" a blessed thing and I think we need to reclaim the ability to say: well that didn't work so well, did it? Maybe we should try something else.
Norway... is the source of my bits of Viking DNA Hops. Shieldmaidens were just as important as the leaders and fighters and explorers. Maybe not as important as the boat builders and farmers. But it is critical to the success of that egalitarian society that women's equality in status didn't come at the expense of MEN'S. (Which is something we see too much of, elsewhere. In order to raise someone up - someone else is getting torn down. That isn't NECESSARY, so why is it happening?)
So, looking at the wide-angle scope of trust issues... I can no longer trust any "ism" to be manna from heaven and perfect. Once the ideas hit the individual human level all kinds of entropic, egoistic and corrupt things can happen to it. I question it with the thoroughness of the Spanish Inquisition. And pick out the genuinely GOOD bits of ideas... dismiss the bad ones... and refuse to accept the whole cocktail of the -ism just because SOME of the ideas are good. I'm selective, I guess.
But like you, I've been picking my way very carefully - to find what I can live with, and manifest myself - from the same life environment events. And we're both stronger for understanding each other's point of view and accepting - and honoring - how we've veered off the main path to individualize our understandings. Women do, do that better than men - in some cases. It's not like a law of nature; there are exceptions.
As for the CEO culture... (we really should have that beer in front of a cozy fire...)
my bestie from high school days grew up with those advantages - while I was the rebel, disreputable, outspoken (go figure), pioneer carving out my own path. Her mother absolutely hated me. But at this stage of life - our statuses have flipped. The beach neighborhood was full of retired admirals, CEOs of defense contractors and major corporations. Mike always joked that one of the first things we should've done when we moved in, was put a car up on blocks in the front yard. Run up the pirate skull & crossbones... and despite that - he was the status seeker, social schmoozer and thrived on it. I did NOT. After 6 years there, there was only a handful of women that I kinda felt comfortable with and that I didn't completely shock or terrify or confuse. But I did get to know the men - because I was the CEO in our household, liked to talk engineering, strategy & tactics, etc.
They were wary at first, of course. I simply didn't fit into the Southern woman category or corporate wife one either. But I could hold my own socially, as long as it was "guy talk". The stereotypes simply do not hold up at the individual level. Not even with the women. There were only a couple of people that I noticed trying to live up (or is it down?) to their stereotype. Once past the first impressions, everyone was really quite human, usually well-read and intelligent, caring, compassionate and involved. With any "rule" regarding people, yes - there are exceptions.
I think you should worry less about the world B is coming from... and start asking about his personal experience with that world. That will yield a lot more useful information about "who he is"... and help you get past the hurdles of your own pre-conceptions about him and "what he's coming from". It puts you both on equal footing, too. It says your values and way of being in the world and your cumulative experience is DIFFERENT - but just as valid. Yeah, I'm still just as concerned about the joke email as everyone else... and the one making out session too. But there are always going to be awkwardnesses in the "getting to know you" phase. How he explains his motivations... could be important in deciding it's nothing to worry about or that he's hiding something. But I always put more stock in what people do, than what they SAY.
What Lighter said - about enjoying yourself - despite the eventual outcome is a good opportunity to stay grounded. Nothing is serious yet; y'all are just dating and getting to know each other. The trust hasn't been built yet. And this phase gives Hops a chance to get from "dunno" to a baseline of trust - or throwing him back in the pool. Whichever makes sense & feels right at that point in time. LOL.
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Well lordybove, y'all. He told me he loves me in the middle of a movie tonight.
I feel good. Kind of stunned. Wary of speed but not suspicious of him.
Couldn't say it back as I just can't until I am sure we're solid...not fooling ourselves...and it feels so soon. But he has slowed down, respected the boundaries ever since he said he would.
Yikers.
Yikers.
Yikers.
I'm a little concerned he's going to blurt out a proposal and I'd like him not to, yet. Couldn't say yes this minute, or month. I kidded him about his executive management style (Here is the Goal, the Strategic Plan, the Action Steps...) Kicked him out before midnight, after peeling pooch off his lap.
(OH, and I did bring up the jokes, and he heard me about the Weinstein one being offensive, defending that he'd laughed at another -- didn't seem to tune into its racism really, but being from that area he'd taken it as a funny play on another common sticker that just silhouettes "people on board". Unaware or avoidant answer, imo, but I've never heard him say or do anything directly racist. He said they were sent by a neighbor. He'd mentioned a neighbor who "sees things like I do" so I do feel he's keeping that darker side of himself sequestered. I dunno how serious it is.)
Right now, just trying to take in the new developments this evening. He said we're on the same page about what a "life partner" means (I said, you know what that means for me, and he said, we're on the same page...). So yikers. He wanted to talk about where we'd live because he knows that could be a big situation to solve.
Holy moly. I need to remember who I am, where I am, what I care about. But all in all, yikers.
xo
Hops
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Well lordybove, y'all. He told me he loves me in the middle of a movie tonight.
I feel good. Kind of stunned. Wary of speed but not suspicious of him.
Couldn't say it back as I just can't until I am sure we're solid...not fooling ourselves...and it feels so soon. But he has slowed down, respected the boundaries ever since he said he would.
Yikers.
Yikers.
Yikers.
I'm a little concerned he's going to blurt out a proposal and I'd like him not to, yet. Couldn't say yes this minute, or month. I kidded him about his executive management style (Here is the Goal, the Strategic Plan, the Action Steps...) Kicked him out before midnight, after peeling pooch off his lap.
(OH, and I did bring up the jokes, and he heard me about the Weinstein one being offensive, defending that he'd laughed at another -- didn't seem to tune into its racism really, but being from that area he'd taken it as a funny play on another common sticker that just silhouettes "people on board". Unaware or avoidant answer, imo, but I've never heard him say or do anything directly racist. He said they were sent by a neighbor. He'd mentioned a neighbor who "sees things like I do" so I do feel he's keeping that darker side of himself sequestered. I dunno how serious it is.)
Right now, just trying to take in the new developments this evening. He said we're on the same page about what a "life partner" means (I said, you know what that means for me, and he said, we're on the same page...). So yikers. He wanted to talk about where we'd live because he knows that could be a big situation to solve.
Holy moly. I need to remember who I am, where I am, what I care about. But all in all, yikers.
xo
Hops
Well it looks like he read Skep's previous comment that 'nothing is serious yet' and decided to change that. Yikers indeed!
I don't want to sound like the voice of doom but it seems a bit fast. As glorious as you are, Hops, I'm always a little concerned by people who fall in love very quickly. To me it doesn't seem sincere. There's not enough time to get to know someone - really know someone (as in, are they racist, are they sexist, do they just tell me what I want to hear to move things on more quickly). I remember, years ago, being heartbroken by yet another perfect guy who'd swept me off my feet, taken me to wonderful places, told me wonderful things - and then just vanished without a bye or leave. I was crying on the shoulder of a male friend about it and he said that men who come in to your life very quickly tend to leave it again just as fast. It was good advice and I've heeded it ever since.
I think I'd feel happier (sorry to be blunt, but I feel protective of you and want to lecture you as if I'm your mum ;) ) if the casual racism/sexism had been resolved (he hadn't actually read all the jokes/he doesn't really get 'humour'/he was actually sending it as an example of how easily this sort of thing is joked about). He did slow down - for about a week, before he sprung "I love you and where shall we live".
I don't feel he's getting you, Hops. Putting aside racism/sexism type issues, I have friends who I know find certain jokes funny, and who I know would find certain jokes offensive (or just aren't their cup of tea). He doesn't seem to have that grasp on you, your core values, your fairness and your need for equality and so on. I get that he's worked in a high powered environment and so has that management thing going on - but you've worked in numerous demanding roles in your life and you've seen the damage that inequality and a very focused, fixed mind set can cause. Which is why you're so gloriously open and free.
So I would say put the brakes very firmly on. I get that it's lovely to feel loved - honestly, I truly do. I am hoping, with every bit of myself, that this will be a good situation for you and one that will bring you much happiness and joy. But with my sensible hat on you've still only been dating for a few weeks. You've already had some fairly big red flags come up - in what is generally the honeymoon period in any relationship It seems to be him constantly trying to move this forward. It still feels like you're working hard to accommodate him and adjust to his wants, his needs, his timeframe. Are you comfortable with him seeing your untidy house yet? Are you happy for him to be there when you have a staying in bed, I want to read on my own day? He's not said or done anything directly racist but he has been indirectly racist, and defended that, and I think that's something you need to hold a big magnifying glass over. I'm worried that you're trying to iron out the elements of him that you find unpalatable quickly because he wants to move so fast. I feel like you're being rushed to make decisions and it's bothering me a bit.
I am sorry to write things that are largely negative because I really do hope that this is all good and everything is glorious but there seems to be a pattern in your posts about him that are up high (lovely night, met friends, did/said something lovely) and then down low (groped me, was rude about the waitress, sent me racist jokes). There's a sort of roller coaster pattern forming that is concerning me. Did he tell you he loved you before or after you brought up the jokes? I think the timing of that might give you a bit more of inclination about the situation. Again, sorry to sound negative, I don't want to be, but I am worried that this is all happening too fast xx
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Not to worry, (((((Tupp))))), I am very grateful for your support in my foot staying firmly on the brakes. That's my intent, and though I'm very affected by his declaration I'm wary of its speed for exactly the reasons you cite. I do think he was a little indirect about my reaction to the "jokes" but in person, didn't sense anything uber-ugly bubbling (largely because of his story about the muslim man). Just a blind spot of privilege and context. (He's from the Detroit area and that may have contributed to some cynicism about that "Detroit bumper sticker" image, not that it excuses it.) I have to measure it against what I've seen in person, so far. It's troubling, gives me serious pause, and I'm not done wanting to get a more clear view of what that's about....but it's not full dive, dive! siren yet. Partly because he's respectful and hears me when I challenge him on stuff. Every time, so far.
One thing about character. He was trying to give me a compliment by comparing me to another woman my age (less "attractive" with less exuberant personality kinds of things). I expressed discomfort. He pays attention. He asked, why doesn't this feel like a good compliment to you? I said, it's nice to be valued but I don't feel good inside if I'm being complimented at the expense of another woman. What I told you about how deep my solidarity with women is, because of sexism...that is real. He responded by heartfeltly saying that I am a very good person.
He notices it when I express compassion and he moves closer when I do. My hope is that a superficial right-leaning circle he is in online doesn't have an iron grip on his soul. Hops dunno yet.
He blurted the love declaration after a moving scene in the Churchill movie that we both had the same goose-bump reaction to. It was spontaneous. I sent him a warm email later that I am keeping my foot on the brake because while very moved by what he's offering, I also want to be thoughtful all the way through.
It's pretty amazing and typically Tupp-astute that you used the term "roller coaster." This morning he wrote back: "I think I've been on a bit of an emotional roller coaster, since we met and I seem to over react to positives and negatives in our path. Your emails often give me a sense of stability and reason."
Anyhow, your motherly warnings and cautions are extremely welcome. I know there's a risk at my age, and after years of loneliness, of flinging caution to the winds. But I won't. If anything I might risk missing out because I let my caution lead too much. Somewhere in the middle, I hope the right knowing will become clear. He IS always a couple steps ahead and urging things forward. That is his issue, his difficulty in containing his impulses while he's swamped with a panicky loneliness.
It's not that he's insincere, I truly feel. Just that he is indeed on a widower's roller coaster and way quicker than I am to think fusing with another woman (me) asap is automatically the right solution. Then again, I've heard many stories about people later in life who waste little time once they think they've found someone. I think the aging, sense of imminent mortality, has something to do with his speed also.
[adding] Forgot to answer your intriguing questions:
Are you comfortable with him seeing your untidy house yet?...
Funny you asked that. Made an intentional decision to not tidy the kitchen, leave an open unloaded dishwasher as it was plus some dirty dishes on counter. Felt fine. He didn't appear to notice (and I didn't care).
Are you happy for him to be there when you have a staying in bed, I want to read on my own day?
Not yet. I'm super protective of my time to myself and privacy. As long as he's pushing the river I'm inclined to stay on the cozy bank by myself. But that could change in time...
Did he tell you he loved you before or after you brought up the jokes?
Before. You said something about this timing being revealing. Can I ask what you meant? Wasn't sure I followed.
Thank you so much for being alongside me as I navigate this stuff. You VESMB Amazons are my sisters in the sky and I could not be more grateful. (One expects high-schoolers to have patience for all these he-said, I-said and then he-did, I-did breathless romantic blow by blows....but I know how lucky I am to have grownup VESMB sisters willing to tolerate it too!)
love,
Hops
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EEK.
This was probably an "in the moment" thing... I wouldn't take it seriously. Even though it feels pretty good. There's a lot more "getting to know you" that needs to happen and trust to be built, before that phrase has real meaning.
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I agree.
Strange as it is, I am the realistic one.
He is engineering and building a romance...lovely but perilous.
It's not that he's not feeling real feels, or that he's insincere. It's that imo, he's showing how different our experiences have been. He's got the first comes love youthful kind of fantasy approach... kind of the way I had when I was young. It's sweet to be around but perilous if we don't stay rooted in the real. I've got to also respect that the man makes commitments, however. He stayed loyally in a 40 year marriage with someone who had a couple major problems. I don't know how long they courted but somehow, this get-swept-away is in his wheelhouse.
Romantic, but I don't fully trust western romantic love any more. Time and behavior will tell if he's in magical thinking always, or just now.
Not entirely in my wheelhouse, so even if we might wind up with the big M, it wouldn't be until I've been dragging the steamboat backward down the river for as many miles (and months) I need to.
I'm glad you guys are kicking along too. I won't forget I can get off the river any time I spot bad rapids....
xxoo
Hops
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Hops:
I remember things you post about..... they're familiar in some of my own stories. The unwanted stomping into my physical space followed by his being good enough long enough....but then.....he switched from physical boundaries to emotional ones....the"I love you" all up in the mental space.
Well.....
WTH?
You ask for space and he steps back, circles around and steps back in....all close up and faaaaaaast again. . It's not true space, is it? It's more infringement, mascarading as less, IME.
I'm back to asking....is it protective leaning ng in to reciprocal care, or.....
something else?
Tupp brings up his tidy controlling/controlled personality, and your relaxed style. Whoo boy..... Been there, done that. Maybe I could have handled things better, but my drive to please.....
it drove me to my knees, though I blamed the man.... The blame was mine. Later I realized I knew it intuitively, before it came to pass. Huge lessons learned well. I should have cared more about myself,and less about him. I gave myself away and depended on his approval, rather than my own.
Later, my beautiful B would be a healing, giving spirit, teaching different lessons. Learning to receive was harder than I thought it would be. After B was dx'd with cancer, and died 5 months later....the week we planned to marry, I accepted I'dlost the love of my life. I didn't expect to find that kind of love again.
I consciously dropped my standards, bc..... I figured it was necessary. Someone like B seemed an impossible ask. I'm not greedy. I had one true love. It could be enough. Right?
The trouble with lowering one's expectations....standards.....
in my experience, it's a slippery slope. I slipped all the way back to my default status of pleaser, bc .....the personal dynamics involved were tougher than I was.....and I started out Uber tough. I slipped into keeper of peace mode, eggshell walker, eyes closed, screaming in my own head to avoid acceptance of what I'd done to myself and 2 little children. I was dependent on a certain outcome....a safe, protected outcome. I was willing to put up with a lot to keep the illusion alive. At least till our children were old enough to protect themselves.
So, here you are....a benevolent, giving spirit practicing boundaries, and holding your ground. Your B is privileged, has always belonged to that group, and has pressed one boundary while relaxing another, to my eye, at least.
I recognize moving too fast. The breathless flush of feeling adored......for better, and worse. It's a giddy, amazing thing..... intoxicating.
:: nodding::
Part of me wants you to just HAVE that. Experience it. Make it yours, if only for a short while. Roll around in it taking big bites as you go.
Part of me wants you to make sure he wants the best for you, before giving him the best of you. His saying he loves you doesn't give him any rights.....
You said you wanted to move slowly....
he's actually moving faster, and....
wTH?
With that said, please remember I regretted moving so slowly with my beautiful B. Had I known who he was, it would have been easier to move more quickly, but getting to know someone takes time. No getting around it, and my B insisted we move slowly once he understood why. We pays our monies,and we takes our chances, as the saying goes. You may have regrets, and that will have to be ok too. You shouldn't freeze up with dread and doubt. Assess, Accept and Act.....AAA's of life and making informed choices, right there.
I sense you're tempted to be swept up in these moments.....maybe....a bit?
Be that the case, be swept without reservation....
wholly, and with great joy, but with eyes wide.
Faint heart never won fair maiden.... So true. Maybe B's heart is fierce, and good, and wants to help you be good, kind, benevolent in this world, in all the ways you require. In ways he's not particularly driven to be himself.
My B was that, and so much more. He gave $15k to charitable causes yearly as required by every partner at his firm. He only said it once, and there was no resentment or regret....no desire for admiration for it either. There was a grace about him, and doing for others. He never would have diminished me. He didn't ever say that. His actions said it all.
The one man who said it out loud was lying to me, laying traps, planning ahead to crush me. I don't want to trust words as a consequence. I want to trust what I see with my own eyes.
Remember there can be degrees of giving the best of yourself. It doesn't have to be completely, and irreversibly.
It can be gifted with abandon.... but,
perhaps,
without expectation and blinding need for this to BE something in particular.
Maybe expectation and desire is the part that hurts when things go sideways. If we're open to what comes next, come what may, we're less likely to fool ourselves when we need clarity and power to discern the most.
This man will tell you who he is..... eventually.
When he does you're going to believe him, and you'll be ok no matter how it goes.
:: nodding::.
Enjoy this jellymoon stage, but I encourage consistent focus on yourself, and your separate life.
Men like women who have other things, anything, going on. You deserve your own life, and sense of importance. If you don't value yourself, why should anyone else? If B cares about you, he'll be patient.... he'll make sure you're ok too.
Lighter
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Not to worry, (((((Tupp))))), I am very grateful for your support in my foot staying firmly on the brakes. That's my intent, and though I'm very affected by his declaration I'm wary of its speed for exactly the reasons you cite. I do think he was a little indirect about my reaction to the "jokes" but in person, didn't sense anything uber-ugly bubbling (largely because of his story about the muslim man). Just a blind spot of privilege and context. (He's from the Detroit area and that may have contributed to some cynicism about that "Detroit bumper sticker" image, not that it excuses it.) I have to measure it against what I've seen in person, so far. It's troubling, gives me serious pause, and I'm not done wanting to get a more clear view of what that's about....but it's not full dive, dive! siren yet. Partly because he's respectful and hears me when I challenge him on stuff. Every time, so far.
One thing about character. He was trying to give me a compliment by comparing me to another woman my age (less "attractive" with less exuberant personality kinds of things). I expressed discomfort. He pays attention. He asked, why doesn't this feel like a good compliment to you? I said, it's nice to be valued but I don't feel good inside if I'm being complimented at the expense of another woman. What I told you about how deep my solidarity with women is, because of sexism...that is real. He responded by heartfeltly saying that I am a very good person.
He notices it when I express compassion and he moves closer when I do. My hope is that a superficial right-leaning circle he is in online doesn't have an iron grip on his soul. Hops dunno yet.
He blurted the love declaration after a moving scene in the Churchill movie that we both had the same goose-bump reaction to. It was spontaneous. I sent him a warm email later that I am keeping my foot on the brake because while very moved by what he's offering, I also want to be thoughtful all the way through.
It's pretty amazing and typically Tupp-astute that you used the term "roller coaster." This morning he wrote back: "I think I've been on a bit of an emotional roller coaster, since we met and I seem to over react to positives and negatives in our path. Your emails often give me a sense of stability and reason."
Anyhow, your motherly warnings and cautions are extremely welcome. I know there's a risk at my age, and after years of loneliness, of flinging caution to the winds. But I won't. If anything I might risk missing out because I let my caution lead too much. Somewhere in the middle, I hope the right knowing will become clear. He IS always a couple steps ahead and urging things forward. That is his issue, his difficulty in containing his impulses while he's swamped with a panicky loneliness.
It's not that he's insincere, I truly feel. Just that he is indeed on a widower's roller coaster and way quicker than I am to think fusing with another woman (me) asap is automatically the right solution. Then again, I've heard many stories about people later in life who waste little time once they think they've found someone. I think the aging, sense of imminent mortality, has something to do with his speed also.
[adding] Forgot to answer your intriguing questions:
Are you comfortable with him seeing your untidy house yet?...
Funny you asked that. Made an intentional decision to not tidy the kitchen, leave an open unloaded dishwasher as it was plus some dirty dishes on counter. Felt fine. He didn't appear to notice (and I didn't care).
Are you happy for him to be there when you have a staying in bed, I want to read on my own day?
Not yet. I'm super protective of my time to myself and privacy. As long as he's pushing the river I'm inclined to stay on the cozy bank by myself. But that could change in time...
Did he tell you he loved you before or after you brought up the jokes?
Before. You said something about this timing being revealing. Can I ask what you meant? Wasn't sure I followed.
Thank you so much for being alongside me as I navigate this stuff. You VESMB Amazons are my sisters in the sky and I could not be more grateful. (One expects high-schoolers to have patience for all these he-said, I-said and then he-did, I-did breathless romantic blow by blows....but I know how lucky I am to have grownup VESMB sisters willing to tolerate it too!)
love,
Hops
Hops, I know you are a wise lady and that you won't be swept along and throw all caution to the wind. Equally I understand how much we doubt ourselves and how often we wonder whether we are being too cautious/damaged/seeing things that aren't really there. I get completely how it's easier to move fast when you're older - partly because you know what you want and partly because there just isn't that need to play games, play the field, wait and see if someone better comes along. I guess that you and B are at different places on that front - you would rather have a partner but financially, emotionally, physically, you are ready to do this on your own. I don't think B is in that place. So I think you are right to put the brakes on and keep them there.
With regards to timing (when he told you that he loved you) what I had in my head was whether he'd declared it as a balm to take your mind off something he'd done that displeased you (the jokes) - so if he'd said it after you'd told him you weren't happy about the jokes did he say it to make up for doing something 'wrong' (in a more extreme version the way a physically abusive partner buys flowers and chocolates after they've beaten their partner up - the sugar to follow the medicine, as it were). So the fact that he said it before has crossed that concern from my list :)
I guess the thing that is niggling at me are the (seemingly) frequent, quietly derogative references to women - the ugly waitress, the Weinstein jokes, the comparison of you with someone else. I know you have said that he was married for forty years - but that doesn't mean happily or that the relationship was healthy. It would concern me that, underlying the charm and the good times is a less than charming opinion of women in general. Just something to keep an eye on, I guess. Anyway, as always, keep us posted! :) xx
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aaaannnnnnnnddddddd.....
Lighter just knocked it out of the park, Hops. Read that 3 times. I'm going to.
8)
Remember there can be degrees of giving the best of yourself. It doesn't have to be completely, and irreversibly.
It can be gifted with abandon.... but,
perhaps,
without expectation and blinding need for this to BE something in particular.
Maybe expectation and desire is the part that hurts when things go sideways. If we're open to what comes next, come what may, we're less likely to fool ourselves when we need clarity and power to discern the most.
B I N G O.
I think all of us humans have a tendency to do this. Probably not something we can "fix" or "improve the original design" or ever stop doing... but if we're aware of it and can be honest with ourselves (or let our friends be, when we can't) we can avoid most of the fearful things we see as "risk".
Lighter - that's so clear and spot-on I'm sharing it with Holly. She needs to hear it too.
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And....
Just bc a man says he's offering what you desire most doesn't necessarily mean that's the offer. Sometimes he just doesn't have it to give, even if he'd like to, IME.
A smart man will listen to what you say, and use that information, Hops. His intentions are another matter.
If B says just the right thing, it's not reason to throw caution to the wind, ime. It requires even more examination.
Be careful what you ask for, Hops.
Lighter
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Wow. A lot to digest.
And so valuable.
Tupp, I believe the blurt about love was not calculated. I think he really does have a loose grip on his feelings right now.
And Lighter, I know that words of love don't entitle him to anything. Your point about him continuing to move faster (in saying it) that I want to is well taken. At the same time, I'm not really receiving it as sinister. He is like a great gallumphing Clydesdale trying to slow his own wagon as it's already heading down a slope.
Another odd thought I had (harking back a bit to Tupp's musings about his cues things)...30 years in his company, he was in charge of all sales. I wonder if some of his press, press behavior is kind of wired in -- in the sense that he's driven to "close a deal"? He's approached the world that way for so long he might (inadvertently?) be approaching a woman that way too?
Again, I think he's been delirious with loneliness. I attribute a lot of his speed to that, too.
But my ears are swiveling and I'm working hard to not gloss over too much, and to try to see what is real and trustworthy. He does seem like a person who takes duty, responsibility, and character very seriously.
His woman-stuff, Tupp, the cumulative little comments, is a red flag. And I do intend to take it down and look at it closely.
One thought I had is that I may tell him (six months from now, say) that I would like to undergo serious premarital counseling before making any commitment that would irrevocably alter our lives. I'll blame it on my own track record. I think he'd agree, and that it'd be a good idea.
Late for work...dang it. Thanks, you all, thanks so much.
love
Hops
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Wow. A lot to digest.
And so valuable.
Tupp, I believe the blurt about love was not calculated. I think he really does have a loose grip on his feelings right now.
And Lighter, I know that words of love don't entitle him to anything. Your point about him continuing to move faster (in saying it) that I want to is well taken. At the same time, I'm not really receiving it as sinister. He is like a great gallumphing Clydesdale trying to slow his own wagon as it's already heading down a slope.
Another odd thought I had (harking back a bit to Tupp's musings about his cues things)...30 years in his company, he was in charge of all sales. I wonder if some of his press, press behavior is kind of wired in -- in the sense that he's driven to "close a deal"? He's approached the world that way for so long he might (inadvertently?) be approaching a woman that way too?
Again, I think he's been delirious with loneliness. I attribute a lot of his speed to that, too.
But my ears are swiveling and I'm working hard to not gloss over too much, and to try to see what is real and trustworthy. He does seem like a person who takes duty, responsibility, and character very seriously.
His woman-stuff, Tupp, the cumulative little comments, is a red flag. And I do intend to take it down and look at it closely.
One thought I had is that I may tell him (six months from now, say) that I would like to undergo serious premarital counseling before making any commitment that would irrevocably alter our lives. I'll blame it on my own track record. I think he'd agree, and that it'd be a good idea.
Late for work...dang it. Thanks, you all, thanks so much.
love
Hops
I think you are going into it with eyes wide open, Hops, which is a good thing, and you're very honest with yourself, which is also good (and very hard to do, in my opinion). I think in all honesty you can look at any person's personality and find red flags - we all have aspects and elements of ourselves that don't look great under a microscope - I think it's a case of whether the good bits outweigh the bad bits and whether the bad bits are bad enough to harm someone else or if they're rough edges that can be accommodated or smoothed out.
I think the couples counseling is an excellent idea! It would help to have some objective, professional input and it's good to be able to say necessary things in that sort of professional environment. I think it's also a good way to work through things but to leave them at the office rather than taking them home with you - a therapist I used to see used to say I could offload all my horrible stuff and leave it at her office rather than taking it home with me. It always made me feel very comfortable. I'm rootin' for ya! I'm really hoping this turns out to be an utterly good thing :) xx
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Looking back on #121 in response to #120...I see myself writing 4 different explanations for him. I don't know if I'm offering him excuses, presenting the kindest version of him to convince myself, or pointing out that forgiving flaws and leading with a gentle interpretation is the happier path. (I do believe the latter but it's a question of degree, and of how damaging those particular flaws would be. Do I over or under react? I'll know in time but as of now, dunno... )
I want to also not rationalize my other observation there, because it could trump all the good stuff unless he's ready for epiphany. IMO, it wouldn't be impossible but would be remarkable if he came to realize that "little jokes" or "casual" denigrating remarks about women he's heard/learned for many years in the company of men.... that these cumulative leaks of hostility toward the female add up to a red flag.
I need the courage to let him know that I take them seriously, and why. (That women have been hiding hurt and swallowing anger about chronic put-downs and belittlement for a very long time. They're often called over-sensitive if they visibly react to "just a joke" but some eventually realize that these male [or iassimilated female] habits have become their habitat. With its concomitant losses of opportunity, income, safety, aspiration, etc. I'm feeling hopeful I can, and likewise hopeful that he can take it in.
Golden Rule is a pretty good simple plan. Plus, presuming goodwill (that's harder for me). I should just proceed the way I'd want him to if there was an important area he sees as red flaggy that he'd like me to become more aware about. Maybe we could create something pretty good if we coud extend each other that opportunity without fear of contempt.
White Like Me by Tim Wise is such an extraordinary book, that I wish there were a similar one aimed at male readers, to sensitively, smartly walk them through the female experience and its ramifications. Or a range of them. He writes so well about race that ime, white people who read it do not experience defensiveness, shame or resentment....but realization. A softening of opinion through existential discomfort. (Like a wound. Itches, aches, on its way to healing.)
I guess I could go look for a book like that. I don't want a diatribe against men but a sensitive explanation of sexism, aimed not at blaming but at inviting the male reader to empathize. Haven't read any polemics about it for many years, so I'm not up on the best.
xo
Hops
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Hopsie, I'm playing Devil's advocate here again at the moment but ........................I'd be kind of wary if there are things about him you need to change to make him more acceptable to you?
He's moving faster than you are
He wants to get the deal sealed and signed quickly.
He's struggling to cope with loneliness (which we all experience and I understand how tough that is as I struggle with it myself - but it means that some people just want 'someone' to fill the gap - which isn't good for the other person).
You've had an unpleasant physical experience with him.
He's made several unpleasant remarks about women (which makes me assume that his wife didn't challenge him on this and therefore may have been quite subservient to him in some way?).
He's sent you racist jokes (which he had no qualms about when you told him how you felt about them).
It could be that he's just not right for you? Putting aside all the reasons for it - work environment and so on - but just that that means he's not ticking all your boxes (which are perfectly reasonable boxes, in my opinion). I get that he's nice, charming, responsible and so on - but that doesn't necessarily make him a good match? I'd bet there are other guys out there who are happy to move slowly, who are comfortable being alone and happy enough in their own skin not to make disparaging remarks about other people, regardless of gender or race (or anything else).
I'm wondering if perhaps your lack of trust in yourself (in terms of judgement - you mention over or under reacting) is making you think in terms of how you should handle the things you don't like about him - instead of making you wonder whether he's just not right for you. I also wonder if your lovely heart focuses on his loneliness and the nice things he does (I get that, because I do the same) and makes you want to rub out the less pleasant aspects of his personality.
Not trying to be overly critical or put a spanner in the works - but just wondering if the simplest explanation is he's just not your Mr Right? xx
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I'm glad you play Debbil, Tupp. SO grateful for your perspective and especially your questions!
I really am not sure.
Given his readiness for commitment, over-speedy though it is, at age 68 when this is the first time I've had this experience despite years+ of on-again, off-again dating, I'm reluctant to leap to the Eject button for B.
I think I'd rather stay as mindful as I can and give it/him some more time. I'm not panicking and that's largely because of this team of Amazons! I don't think I'll delude myself entirely and also know that whatever I read here is going to be insightful, caring, and come from valuable experience.
I'm trying to look at it this way, too: I value learning about myself and about other humans. And as to social/political views, I've been in my own echo-bubble for a looooooong time, and my division from so many other people saddens me. How amazing it might be to find new little bridges that two different people could build together, motivated by love? (Not woo-woo romantic, but agape.)
I'm guarding my heart sufficiently (zero impulse to fling it all the way over the bar like I used to nearly every damn time). So far, though it's been mildly bumpy and I've been ever-ready to panic, every time I try to address something with him seriously, he listens attentively and responds respectfully. I don't think he's pretending this. That doesn't mean that he responds by instantly adopting my interpretation or my perspective, but what is new for me is sensing respect, not "tolerance." Noticing how he listens, tries. He may have been unready to unpack his reaction to one of those two offensive jokes completely, but I think we can look at it again sometime. (Already have a Tim Wise book to share if he'd like...).
Otherwise, I might feel as though I were "lying in wait" for him to screw up, and I don't really want to approach him that way. He is in counseling for grief still, with a female therapist, which says one thing about him. Another is that he really loved his wife. At least I believe so.
It's different than when I was young or even middle-aged. Then, I still had youth-ish on my side and could visualize lots of invisible hypothetical mating opportunities coming my way. The truth is, that's much more difficult when you can see age 70 just two years away.
Are these normal compromises older women consider when dating? I can't speak for anybody else but notice that I do feel happier, generally. Just knowing someone is really into me, dreams of a life with me, makes me feel less alone and scared in the world. (I have, you've probably noticed, been really scared of a bleak old age.)
No guarantees and you're absolutely right that I'm not going to re-engineer him either.
I imagine this is going to be a bunch of ups and downs and LOADS of posting here. I hope I don't wear out my welcome. And can't express how much I appreciate this space. It's astonishing.
Thanks mucho mucho,
xxoo
Hops
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B has the flu, so though we've been in touch by phone, I'm having a week to really let all of it sink in, and try again for good discernment.
I think in unloading so much fear here (which I would possibly have about any new relationship I think, because of my history) I have distorted things perhaps. And I seriously welcome your observations/questions about whether you think I have or not. I'm sick of my own "dunno" but I guess that's part of this process. I know that the offer of a real life-changing relationship triggered pure panic for a while. Despite the fact that I would like it to happen and have spent years in sporadic attempts to find one.
I've used every writing skill I have to spell out my fears of the horrible dominant chauvinist inside the boyfriend. A goblin. I've added his politics/worldview on top of what I think are pretty intense general fears of intimacy that I haven't fully unpacked.
Some things that occur to me that could be important, or perhaps aren't:
--The night when I was chattering nervously and he pressed on...he stopped. Looked at my face, and instantly changed to kissing me in a tender way. Which I reciprocated. It was a moment, and a negative one. But I never described the followup behavior. Does that change anybody's perception?
--The images I didn't like came from his neighbor and though he did deflect my description of the stick-figure "bumper sticker" one as racist (said he was just thinking it was a spoof on the stick-figure "baby/family on board" similar ones). I think he was evading it, because it made him uncomfortable. He wasn't contemptuous or rude, I think he was not ready to face the embarrassing possibility that he had laughed at a racist meme. My question to myself is, given how he reacted to the real intimidation of a muslim man he knew...is he actually racist? I'm not sure it's fair to label him that, and suspect that unlike me (who grew up in a southern community in close contact with many black citizens), he did not. He grew up in a privileged white bubble outside of Detroit. So I think it might be fair to say that, like many people, he wasn't humanizing a mental image of urban black people. I think he should, obviously, but I don't know how fair it is to pillory him for not having gotten it. I also don't sense that he has a "case closed" mindset. Though I could be wrong.
Because I'm who I am I am struggling to reconcile extreme feminism in my own core, with trying to work out which stupid jokes he makes are knee-jerk male-bonding programming, and which could be serious. What I'm contrasting it with is the fact that he listens to me, responds respectfully to my opinions, and has made clear he respects my intelligence. And I do think he's a product of the environments he's been steeped in, just as I am.
The conundrum is that having someone care, be involved in my life, be supportive and (yes Amber) even protective....would be a huge, huge change.
As I listen in silence to whatever's rolling through my brain, I want to come up eventually with a choice that:
Does not--
imperil my integrity
trigger self-abandonment
undermine my principles
Does--
offer me a chance at love
end the loneliness
provide some hope
I think the only way I can get there, to the right choice, is going to be to neither leap forward nor leap away. I think something important is happening between us that has the potential to transform both our lives for the better. I also think that in wanting that to come true, I am wary of my own ability to imagine something that may not be.
Best things I can think to do meanwhile are:
--keep on posting my internal ups, downs, and realizations
--keep talking to my T and weather a crisis of self-doubt in my capacity to judge wisely
--lean on friends I trust to keep me in balance
--discern, discern, discern
If you're fed up with me or thinking I've lost my mind, I understand. I so appreciate your patience. It's been hard to go into this and would be hard to go out of it. But I am committed to ultimately coming to a place that feels truthful, real, honest and as right as I can get it.
I've been alone for a long time and could continue that life, though where I'd end up might be pretty bleak. I am aware that age has changed my sense of what's tolerable and what's non-negotiable. Am I the oldest woman here? Perhaps some of you either are nearing my cohort or have stories about older women you know who have entered a new relationship at an older age. If you do and would like to share, I'd love to hear them.
love
Hops
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Hopsie, I think all you can do is what you've been doing - spend time together, talk, laugh, experience things, see how things go. Racism/sexism/all other isms - they are all on a spectrum, some obvious, some not so much, some you would be able to brush off, some you wouldn't. My sister and her partner's family hold views on immigration that I would consider racist - they consider them sensible methods of self preservation. We just kind of talk about other things so that we don't get into issues that could become contentious.
I think maybe try to put to one side any kind of labeling for a little while. It's early days. We all make mistakes. We say and do things because we're nervous/put on the spot/distracted and so on. I don't think the fact that he's sent some jokes that aren't to taste necessarily means that he is a racist, misogynistic control freak. We all have to find out what makes a person tick (both people; he's learning about you at the same time as you are learning about him). I think possibly what comes is whether the same (at the moment small) issues keep surfacing and/or become bigger issues - and I guess, more importantly, whether you can live with them.
I don't think he, or the relationship, needs to be perfect. I think it's perfectly reasonable to go for a guy who makes you feel happy, warm, loved but sometimes laughs at things you find offensive or doesn't always see the world the same way that you do. I don't think being on your own for the rest of your life is an option any of us finds particularly appealing. Whilst I'd always say being on your own is better than being in an unhappy relationship, I think it's perfectly possible to be happy in an imperfect relationship with a man who has his heart in the right place but doesn't always say or do the right things. It's all a question of degrees, in my opinion - I think all the time the good moments outweigh the bad ones (and that bad ones aren't eating away at your self esteem, self confidence and so on) then being happy is the most important thing.
I've played Devil's Advocate a few times, mostly because I know it helps me when people throw a harsh, unforgiving light on a situation - it cuts away the excess baggage and forces me to look at things in a really real way. But whilst I get that B is yes, moving fast, yes, there have been the racist/sexist worry moments, he doesn't seem to be directing nastiness or unpleasantness in your direction at all. The unsettling moments you've described could be a sign of that further down the line but he's not showing signs of being someone who wants to change you or make you feel bad or uncomfortable about yourself (in fact it seems the opposite of that).
You are very intelligent and very wise emotionally as well, Hops, and I think you need to hold on to that. You're seeing things as they happen, you're noticing, you're thinking, you're shifting. I don't see you ending up in an awful situation you can't get out of; I just don't think your life experiences would let that occur. I think just keep on keeping on. Either the little things that have cropped up so far will level out a bit - or they'll keep cropping up and become more of a problem. I am still crossing fingers!
As for being fed up or thinking you've lost your mind, no, far from it, you sound totally together and very aware of where you are with this and what's going on. I think that some people have to have happy endings, right? :) xx
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Hops, not tired or fed up at all. I just have a housefull of people this weekend. (More on that later.)
I'm about 7 years younger than you. All of your doubts sound normal to me. (Including your worries about red flags - even though I do think they're less significant than you do.) No matter our age, we don't have any roadmaps for these kinds of relationships - and there's no one "right way" for them to be. That makes everything seem scarier because you don't have a real yardstick to measure things by.
You know that you haven't reached the intimacy stage - so you can only trust your own eyes and perceptions/intuitions. And you HAVE to trust yourself if you're going to get to intimacy. It's not optional.
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Hops, just following on from what Skep said and thinking about it more this evening, I think it boils down to (a) yes, there's a risk that you might get your heart broken (and there's nothing you can do about that, if you fall in love there's a chance it will go wrong and that's just how it is but (b) I don't think you're going to walk into an elephant trap. I think if there is something/anything off/wrong/out of place you will see it, recognise it and do something about it. If you were talking about getting married next week and selling your house to put into his house/business/fancy holiday/whatever I'd be screaming "no"! But you just won't get caught in a situation like that; you're too astute and you've had your fingers burnt before so worst case scenario the heartbreak risk is real but it always will be, however politically correct someone else's jokes might be :) xx
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Thank you both SO much (and Amber, especially for pausing in the middle of the festivities to throw a post my way, much much appreciated!)
I think not labeling for a while is a really good idea, Tupp. I'm going to try to cut it out.
I just took him a basket of comforts and his face was just alight when he answered the door. That was sweet and made me feel good. (Did stand at a distance and treat him as though he has the plague though, which he understood. I Would Not Touch. I dread flu for myself but esp. don't want to carry it to the old folks for whom it could be dangerous.)
On the way out there I stopped at the little business B'd told me about and had a great talk with the owner. I told him a friend had told me about the gun-flashing intimidation he'd had over his photo of his grandfather and he was moved. I just said I'd come in because I wanted to tell him how terribly sorry I was that this kind of bigotry had walked into his business, and we had a lovely talk about Thomas Jefferson's Koran, how much he loves America, and how much it hurt when that man did what he did. But he also said any publicity or "campaign" to support him would likely make things worse for him, which I sadly understood. Sweet man. He said he taught economics for years. I don't know what country he's from but think I'll stop in again and become a friend. Ironically, when I said I wasn't shopping since I don't eat meat he laughed and said, "I'm a vegetarian too."
I gave him my BLM pin and said, this really means brown/yellow/purple/Muslim and female Lives Matter and he said it's the human intention that makes this gift beautiful. I'm glad I did it.
Thank you again, both, for helping me get back in the present and have more faith in myself.
love
Hops
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So the minute I got back in the car (after already thanking me on his porch) B calls me to thank me again for the "flu comfort basket" and I said you're very welcome! When I get home he calls again and thanks me again (I didn't pick up as I was feeling smothered) and this time offers the week getaway in one month's time. When I called back I said, I thought we'd agreed we'd take a long weekend before committing to 7 days together and he said yes, but the timeshare dates have changed so now the only week available is a month from now.
He seemed annoyed that I didn't instantly agree but not nasty about it. Anyway, for me it involves: losing a week's income, boarding my dog who's not used to it, worrying about the elders two of whom are very frail right now, and ... feeling pressure (theme) to go faster/farther than I'm ready for. I got the impression (not sure) that after feeling so happy to see me he jumped on the phone with his brother (with whom he shares the timeshare in Hilton Head) and nailed down an open date.
So I wrote him all the things that give me pause and suggested a long weekend away instead.
We'll see how that goes down!
Oh, he also mentioned while touting how wonderful it would be that he and his wife used to go there too. So I said in my email, I think if it was a favorite vacation with your wife it might be healthier for us to do something different together, what do you think?
Then again, it's nice that he's found a "free" vacation for us, which reduces $$ pressure on us both.
All that said, I dunno. And we'll see.
love,
Hops
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Hops:
How does the "free" time share option reduce your costs?
And....
It's a red flag when a man tries to change your no into a yes, ime.
You said yes to a long weekend.
No to a full week.....you explained why it was important to you. Has he forgotten?
He didn't ask you to change your answer. He assumed you'd do it without any discussion, which makes me wonder wether or not he understood your position in the first place.
He's disappointed you aren't as eager as he is..... disappointed doesn't mean anything in particular, imo. It's how he handles his disappointments that will tell.
As for the Vaca location.... anyone would prefer somewhere fresh, and new, away from reminders of B's late wife, imo. I don't judge him for wanting to share a familiar place, and stories that honor his late wife. I'm sure it will do B good to share his pain, and memories. The thing is, I wouldn't want my new relationship to be about his rebounding hard, and heavy around that chapter of his life.
I'd like to feel that pushing him out if his comfort zone would be healthy, and pay dividends without end as the relationship forms.
I remember my late husband booking dreadful hotel rooms I refused to stay in.....we ended up changing to hotels we both enjoyed, and we didn't argue about it. I was worthy, and had I held my tongue I would have simmered and hated every minute of the entire trip.
I held my tongue a lot in that marriage, but there was very little reason that I should have been uncomfortable in a disgusting situation we could easily advocate for myself without getting defensive or aggressive or emotional. It was simply a fact that my comfort counted, and I had the expectation we could both be comfortable. Your comfort factors in n too. I thought that was established, but clarity is required, imo.
Your B wants to vacation, forge an intimate relationship with you, and build a new life.
If his saving a few dollars is the priority in all this, I have to throw another red flag on the field.
If he must take you to a place he took his wife, I'm not quite sure what to make of it. Is he willing to try a new location? If not, why?
You have a chance to learn a good deal about this man very quickly as you advocate for yourself.
Stay upbeat, and eager to get on with whatever you're comfortable with, Hops. I'm hoping your positive attitude will lift him and carry him through to understanding and compromise (without resentment.)
I'm still one finger typing on my phone, along with a house full of family, and wish I had time to edit. Sorry for such lengthy posts.
Lighter
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Quick reponse, Hops, as I slept NINE HOURS last night (that never happens) and I'm running late (will update on the other thread lol) but...
Wonderfully sweet and caring of you to take B a goodie basket and his reaction (at the door) was very sweet, too.
Enormously loving and gracious of you to go and speak to the man who had that horrible experience; spreading a little love, in person (particularly to someone you don't know) is more valuable than any kind of material or financial gift anyone can ever provide, in my opinion, I'm sure that guy went to bed with his heart a little lighter that evening. You're such a sweetheart.
B with the phone calls, changing plans, wanting to holiday where he took his wife - ditto what Lighter said and to be honest I think having to keep putting brakes on and explaining things after you've already clearly stated x, y and z is going to get tiring quite quickly. With the holiday - his timeshare, shared with his brother, that he used to go to with his wife - I'd be inclined to avoid (at least for now) and go somewhere new and neutral. Cheap and cheerful, doesn't have to be a million miles away and if money is/becomes an issue - then no need to go perhaps? Deffo keep us posted :) xx
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Well, I can see the practicality of a "free week" but it's really clear he hasn't completely recognized what a week away means in your life. Doesn't mean anything big per se; just that because it's not a big deal for him to go away... he doesn't see how that impacts you. "Getting to know you" stuff.
I would EXPECT him, now, to continue pressuring you to move faster than you want. It seems to be a pattern now. I'm suspicious that he really IS attempting to fill a grief hole - that "bereft" bit; the space I also recognize sometimes that was filled in my life by Mike - now. Doesn't mean he doesn't truly like you... just that he's seeing an easy path forward to what he thinks he wants. You CAN be wiser than him, you know...
And in this case, even accepting that some people don't handle alone time and the deeper loneliness emotion well... you can stick to your decision to go at your pace. What's the worst that could happen? He could get annoyed and think about maybe finding someone else. That wouldn't be such a TERRIBLE outcome for you... it would validate that it wasn't the right time, with this particular person. Maybe this is what your first argument is about... but at that point, you have the opportunity to make it abundantly clear in simple terms that you aren't going to be persuaded by any means to move from that "rule"... and WHY - because the why is very important about and to you.
How long have you been communicating with him now? Seeing him? I ask, because you can be a immovable object - it's your right - about how fast you are comfortable proceeding. Yes, it entails risk that he'll move on to choice #2. But perhaps this won't happen. Maybe he'll man up and realize you're no pushover on certain things... and respect that. It's good to demonstrate that early in a relationship, IMO.
It may also engrave it on his brain that he's not now dating his late wife... and that comparisons aren't fair at ALL. That THIS relationship is going to be a different thing. (As it can't help being.) Remember me, telling Mike he had me confused with some other wife? Yeah; it was necessary to remind him even after 10 years together. I never saw that as being his attitude toward women - always, without exception; it was more that he was responding based on prior experience with another person - another wife - and not seeing that I am different.
If you don't feel comfortable with what a week's getaway means in actual terms for you - gently say you really can't, given your obligations. Regret may be appreciated too. But you know, us older ladies have actual LIVES... that we're not going to throw under the bus because someone brings us flowers and is nice to us. We don't mind ADDING to our lives... but what we have that we made for ourselves, we're loathe to throw away - even AFTER "happily ever after". It's part of our identity... what makes "us" US.
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You guys are SO spot on.
Tupp, it does get tiring (and when I'm looking for an excuse to bolt, being in charge of the brakes is a very appealing one). But read on for better news....
Amber, yessss. (Hellloooo, dear B, I Have a Life). Good to ponder how you understood that Mike's history (oops, wrong wife) naturally (and not maliciously) bled into life with you. And so impressive and helpful to see how you took it. Not personally. Not with grievance. (He was so lucky in you. You know how to love.)
The good news: We just had a marathon phone call to unpack and work through this tension about his invite for the seven days, and not the long weekend agreed to. It was remarkable (for me, given my history). He had an offer for the place and the date had changed but there was a whole history of family timeshare and scheduling and stuff, and he hadn't meant it as a demand (though yes, he did want it), but it was now the only date available. He may have preferred we swoonily go for it but DID accept me saying, nope. I wanna long weekend first.
Lighter, I calmly stuck to my boundary about it and he wound up telling me that in spite of his grim-reaper fears, etc., he is likely to live a long time (genetically) and he actually knows I'm right. (To take it slowly and build layer by layer.)
It was probably the longest conversation we've had so far and it was really good. We shared truthful stories (him about his wife and their memories) and me about a baaaaaaad experience of a premature-week-at-the-beach I'd had years ago.
I came away from it grateful that I have today off (so I could devote that much time to listening and talking with him) and also...glad he got the flu so a long phone chat was all we could do.
It was surprisingly great. We got to the point of talking about sex and rapacious Neanderthals. Even got into cultural stuff, such as old Bill Cosby hysterical routines with so much imaginative empathy for adolescent male sexuality...and the irony of how he missed empathy for half the species.
The upshot is that I felt much much closer to him, and happy when we hung up.
He said he'd had two realizations about me:
--I'm much much smarter than he'd assumed (I know...yarrggghhh, alert the media, smart woman)
--I'm a lot tougher emotionally than he'd realized (I said "Tough love" and he said, "I know. I don't always like it but I know it's good.")
I'm rather stunned but it turned out that this first "fight" (translate: email weirdness including incorrect assumptions on both sides) brought us closer. A lot. He really does listen and "work" to communicate through. That's a new experience for me.
love and mush,
Hops
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Aw, Hops, that does all sound good. Yes, the talking is the key, isn't it, and like you say, good in a way that he has the flu so on the phone is the only way it can be done! Often easier than face to face. And yes, he's realised you're smart :) And this, I think, can be a problem that many experience (and kind of goes back to something I said a few posts back about how conditioned both sexes are to focus on appearance) - I do think a lot of guys have been so conditioned socially to think that getting a woman boils down to telling her she's pretty, paying for a nice dinner and wearing clean shoes that some are genuinely surprised to find one that thinks and speaks as well :) Lol. I'm glad you've had a good talk and yes, it is all getting to know you stuff. I'm glad the talk was a good one :) xx
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Gee Hops.... that conversation sounded..... really productive. I'm glad.
What I noticed about it, aside from the fact that it seemed to go rather well, is your relief it was over the phone. I keep waiting for him to be good enough, long enough, that you long for his company.
If he could just stand down, and create space.... just let the space BE without taking it all up... you'd be able to close that distance yourself, in your own time, and way. I know I say this and say it, but it's what I SEE when I look at your situation. It's what I want you to have. I want you to have everything you want, and be very comfortable in that space.
You're still able to hope for an equal relationship with a man who may treat you like a human being. He may very well be the kindest, most helpful, loving man who does too much on this earth. He may appreciate your heart, body and soul.... figure out how wonderful it can be to have someone like you sharing his journey. I keep hoping.
I know this, once you start making excuses it's a very slippery slope to being miserable.
IME, of course.
Don't make any excuses for him. Remain calm, and expect to be treated as well as you treat him. Nothing to get upset about, just a discussion here and there, right?
I do wish he'd just give you space so you could feel you're in your wheelhouse. I really want that for you.
Lighter
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Hey Lighter... he can't give that to Hops; she has to claim it on her own. Then, it becomes part of the foundation of and for the relationship to bloom when he says - oh, OK - and doesn't resent it.
I've been watching Holly & Matt navigate some things together. Holly realized awhile ago that she gave up a boundary with him, over what is really HER space. She's been trying to find a way to reclaim it without automatically pushing his defensiveness button. Meanwhile, he's also asking for some things too. I talk to BOTH of them pretty openly.
One thing that I think has just become a big symbol of how things are changing is the birthday party and how Matt & I conspired with some ideas... and just how much work Matt did to make it happen. He was the anchor keeping the preps, the food production, and people's well-being tethered in having a great time. That was huge gift of the kind of thing she truly appreciates.
Other big things going on with them too. So a work in progress and she's learning to kind of go with the flow for a bit.
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You guys are amazing.
Thanks, Tupp for the cheer, it is really good to hear that you heard the happy note.
Lighter, you're totally right about how critical it is that he learn to let me breathe. Respect the space I require in order to relax and expand. Become very comfortable with having requirements.
But to Amber's point, her opening is exactly what my T told me today. I speak up, I require what I require and learn to matter-of-factly say: Yes, no, that works for me, or that won't work for me. Iow, I have to give (and re-give) myself permission to be consistently and comfortably assertive. Rather than hope he donates it.
Then, there's no real threat (even though I've done such a great imitation of a panicking, dissolving ice cube lately). T is always trying to model matter-of-fact adult couple communication for me. Today, with talk with B, I realized...maybe I can do this better than I thought I could.
I still have some fear. I think I'd have it with any man until time and testing show me I'm truly in a safe place. But, B and I together went a long way today. A big piece for me was sticking to my guns about our trip plan (despite his disappointment), listening a lot to his memories and associations with the place (not my cuppa tea but it won't kill me to go there with him sometime), respecting them, and still for this particular decision, detangling that (his past) from our present (planning instead the short trip we'd agreed to as a first step). He accepted it without resentment, but it had helped so much that I'd talked it over with T this morning. (It was he who suggested, ask him what Hilton Head is about for him, listen to his story...). T said, the point is the process, it's the process of communication that matters most. Finding out if you can do that together well.
Still dunno about long-term but this was an encouraging step. I think it's the first time I've sensed that we really might be able to build something based on respect and commitment to working through conflict. Lord knows it's only one test but it was heartening to feel that we passed it.
My job is to work on the fear, so I don't remain so scared of enmeshment and/or conflict that I slip into yielding too much (though compromise matters) or going rigid. And I do think we have a loooooong way to go and many differences and preferences to sort out. It's a huge prospect but if we find we can enjoy it maybe it'll work.
Next on my own agenda is sharing with him some fears I have about what personality issues might be like for us if we settled into a long-term situation. Maybe I can just tell him: I worry about the mix of a poet with ADD who tends to NOT be tidy or on point a lot, and an engineer who thinks in spreadsheets (his personality was actually a business strength...a partner told him B drove him crazy with his methodical planning and always looking a year out, but said "Because you do that, I know it's why our company succeeded.")
I guess we'll have to talk about how a relationship is and is not like a company. Not my favorite metaphor, ugh. Maybe I can ask him to think of me as the loopy creative graphics person in the marketing department...? And how trying to "manage" me (which I think might be a reflex) won't work. I mean, vigorously won't work. I hope he'll get it.
Early days. Concern remain but less fear. More hope. Hoping I remain rational while maybe opening a little bit more to romance.
love
Hops
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Hops, I think being able to communicate is always going to be the key, I think we all hear that and understand it (in all aspects of our lives). And yep, being able to talk and work through sticky patches is more important than never having sticky patches. He might welcome the change of not having to constantly plan and organise (and maybe you'll get close enough for him to organise your paperwork! He can be your inhouse Tup :) lol).
I think the fear is very natural and very normal and I think you're managing it admirably. Fear of being alone, fear of being with someone, fear of being with the wrong person - so many possibilities! But you're negotiating those choppy waters and making it look easy so more power to your elbow :)
I'm happy to read that post; it sounds like that talk has put you both in a better place to hear what the other is saying (or it may be more accurate to say B has caught up with you a little ;) ) xx
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Hey Lighter... he can't give that to Hops; she has to claim it on her own. Then, it becomes part of the foundation of and for the relationship to bloom when he says - oh, OK - and doesn't resent it.
Amber:
I think B has to give it, so Hops can claim it. Of all things.... that's one of the foundation blocks. It can't be wrestled away, or imagined, ime.
I've encountered men who pretend to give it, sans resentment, but then I found both men did so with a " bitch will pay" mentality they forged in the open, where I could see it. I'm good at pretending. I also attract PD men who lack respect for anyone, along with kind, healing spirits. They're mixed in, and so I share the obvious sign posts with Hops.
I know my only true regret, in relationships, is failure to honor myself and my intuition. I can say that I have good instincts, and boundaries. The failures were about enforcing my boundaries, and they crumbled inch by inch. Small increments, really.
Nice men, once they understand if they can understand, don't make a life out of......making a bitch pay for attempting to honor herself, ime. They step up, and honor alongside us. I've seen that with my own eyes, so I know it's real.
There are sign posts if we're able to see and accept them, ime. For me, some of those signs are still on fire. They color my views.... I think that's clear. There's also signs in moonlight, and sunshine. The hard to discern are presented on moonlit nights, but on fire just the same. I'm going cross-eyed with comparisons, so moving on.
Sometimes there is no respectful acceptance of a woman's boundaries or her right to have them, even if there's a bit of talk about it.
Sometimes there is the charade of acceptance.....scary.
Sometimes there is confusion, misunderstanding, then finally growth and honor when all seemed lost, ime.
Whatever happens, clarity is a good thing as we strive for balance and strike our bargains.
The saying....
We pays our monies, and takes our chances....:: nodding::
I think that's all I have to say about that.
Finally.
Lighter
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Thanks, Tupp. If B and I break up, I'll send you a plane ticket to come help me get organized!
And Lighter, thank you.
I don't completely follow the idea that he has to give it so I can claim it, as opposed to me claiming it from the get go so his permission isn't a factor....BUT. I still hear you, and respect (and need) your vibrating radar about boundary blunders, small or large. They've been there and must be dealt with.
It's how I imagine you being a martial artist -- vigilant, and with a very high-frequency awareness of threats. Even subtle ones, and that's what I appreciate so much about your commentary. Please don't withhold your insights even as I get excited when it goes well. Optimism balanced with caution...I need both to assemble the big picture. So far I'm working with puzzle pieces and the darker ones you move into view are essential truths too, as much as the rainbow sky. I don't hear paranoia, I hear experience.
Of course, we/I hope that over time B's decency and honor win out over his other traits. So far, I'm sensing habits of being "large and in charge." Some typical reflexes for someone entrenched in the kinds of climates he's lived in. However, I'm also hearing lately a lot of reflection, more insight than I'd expected, including some regret over how driven he was during his working life (regarding his wife).
In this most recent conversation, anyway, I really did not sense manipulation. He seemed to have a yearning to not just pour out feelings but also have effortful, two-way, respectful communication. He listens. And a theme that runs alongside my own habit of fear, is feeling respected by him.
That is an unusual and encouraging experience, as I've normally been attracted to brilliant but cynical men who'd see my soft side and compassion as things to exploit. B seems instead to see me as someone with goodness at the core, and he wants to be more tuned in to that in himself, I believe. (Careful, Hops, lest you make it up. Still, I think I'm receiving that signal.)
Even to myself, I do come across as a lot tougher emotionally than I used to be. Since my experiences with my boss, mother, brother and daughter, I am pretty unsentimental these days. I speak more often and more openly about my thoughts about the culture.
I didn't feel patronized but appreciated, respected. It was pleasing to see that he didn't seem fixated on winning or being "right." I honestly felt he was enjoying my mind, feeling stimulated by my thinking. Anyway, it was nice to feel respected and recognized as a thinker....
Thanks again to you both, I appreciate your inputs so profoundly.
love,
Hops
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Lighter, is it possible you and I are talking about 2 different things? Or different aspects of the same thing? I feel kinda dense, but I didn't really understand your POV and couldn't make it connect to what I thought I was talking about...
claiming the space to be a separate individual with their own life, who is engaging in relationship with someone who has THEIR own life. Those lives may have some aspects in common, but undoubtedly will also be different. Maybe I can't understand, because of my long history of believing that enmeshment = all relationships. It was my "normal" relationship and while I saw that other people had a different arrangement... it wasn't how Amber did "love" relationships.
Until I actually claimed my own life - to be me, by myself... separate - within my marriage to Mike. He didn't "give" me the space to do that, I just took it - in other words, claimed it. And no, he didn't like it very much. He liked being the center of my attention, 24/7/365. If I went out for an afternoon (even to do yard work), I got the "I missed you; I was lonely... and he wouldn't "do for himself" either. It seemed he was loathe and perhaps incapable of going anywhere by himself or to develop guy friendships to engage in activities; I had to be with him.
And when I did agree to stay with him, invariably he fell asleep on the couch. Even before he was sick.
Larry, ex#2... would force me to do things on my own from time to time. And he definitely was the opposite of needing that kind of attention... to the point where I felt alone in company with him. And yet - if I did attempt to "have my own life"... that wasn't permitted either. He was all about control.
So, I kind of pin-balled between extremes and was pretty confused until learning that it would be healthy to have my own friends to do things with... my own interests that I didn't necessarily engage in with Mike... and things I needed to do for myself. And it wasn't selfish to want that; have that. It didn't mean I didn't love him... but I was done with the enmeshment-style of relationship. I mighta overdone it some... but only by HIS standards.
Going on year 3 alone now... I have enough distance (emotionally) to see one reason I haven't actively been seeking another relationship is because I'm still learning to have my own life, take care of own emotional needs in a healthy way... and it is just plain easier without another person's wants/needs to consider. I guarantee if I do start getting involved with someone I'm going to be flailing, second-guessing, and over-analyzing too. And I do believe I'm more afraid of experiencing THAT, than I am of being lured into a relationship by deception or manipulation or dishonesty on the guy's part.
OK, I've probably just confused you more... your turn: try to unconfuse me about what you were saying.
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This is just rambling around in the space inside your dialogues, and happy they're happening. Me, still talking.
Glad you wrote all that, Amber. It makes so much sense that your chosen solitude is also curative for an enmeshment pattern. (BTW, I think B and Mike have real dependency in common and that'll be as big a challenge for me as it was for you...)
I think I'm scared of being controlled or dominated (but much less since that call). I have huge reflexive push-back and in fact am over-defensive. I was telling my T how hypersensitive I am to feeling pressure of any kind whatsoever (we're talking near-oppositional feelings...). Tried to come up with an image and got this:
I remember some glam events when I was younger. All purtied up. And a man escorting me wherever, would often place his hand at the small of my back as we entered a room. I got up and pantomimed for T, you know, that "gentleman escorts lady" gesture...? Then I said, imagine that you're wearing heels, walking carefully in a long dress. Then imagine that he slightly pushes you forward. His hand isn't just resting at your back, he's pushing a little, steering a little. We could call it "guiding" but that wouldn't be true to resistant-oppositional-near-paranoid me, who now thinks of that gesture with a huge desire to throw off the hand entirely. And kick him with my steel-toed fancy flats. (A grownup woman could just say calmly, I'm more comfortable walking on my own...or something like that.)
Nothing gracious about the inner reflex (and btw, this isn't even a situation, just an illustration) but I don't WANT to be "guided, steered" or especially "pushed" -- even subtly. I don't feel cosseted with such gestures, I feel diminished to "lady" (not strong woman with two feet) and, sorta, "trophy" not person. So even at this age I'm still navigating my rejection of all thaaaaat old stuff, while wanting genuinely to be grateful and kind and respectful of the good intentions that could accompany the gestures too. (You guessed it, B opens car doors. While I shiver, waiting...since I move faster than he does, I get there first. It's silly but I ain't fighting it.)
Believe me, neither of my two husbands could be bothered to do anything traditionally gentlemanly or let's call it basically considerate even apart from the feminist lens, so in fact, if I look at it that way, it could sometimes feel pleasant. Sounds like a reasonable thing, if I could try reasonable.... :lol:
Anyhow, I digress. What is really mattering to me, before B and I even try entering his kind of penultimate social soirees sometime maybe, which I imagine wouldn't even be that frequent...is in the now, he's been listening. Truly listening. And being respectful. I can't explain how reassuring that long conversation was the other day.
Although I have pathetic physical radar and dulled bodily intuition (thank you Lighter for the inspiration to pay more attention to this---remind me more!)...I do have pretty strong recognition of voice, the breath, rhythms, and words used in conversation. It may come from decades of poetry. I heard sincerity, effort and serious intent to do it well in B on the phone that day. Not a con.
Dunno why I'm falling on the floor so thrilled about that piece, except that it's a huge contrast to what I've experienced in relationships before.
(I think the reason being on the phone helped was: 1) He's goofily distracted and too swoony when I'm there --for now, it'll wear off-- for me to concentrate hard on verbal content; 2) When I need to talk about something I feel defensive or urgent about, maybe due to my ADD, I am less distracted on the phone. The phone concentrates what's happening into my ear and mind; in-person can overwhelm me if something feels very important or emotional. Huh. I never thought about it that way before, the possibly-ADD piece. But it's making sense now that I type it....(yup, took the meds this morning, hence typetypetypetype....)
I digress, ramble and interrupt. Eager to listen to y'all, carry on...
Oh wait. I forgot to tell y'all something. It's pretty self-explanatorily obvious and not a deal breaker. Not even creepy. But you'll get a better sense of where he is and what he's still processing as a not-quite-two-years widower after 46 years....
On our third meeting he asked me if I'd be interested in any of his wife's clothing--I think for two reasons: 1) the subconscious message which truly is fairly oblivious and 2) I think he's sensitive to me being relatively low-income and he's very frugal and concrete. And intends to be kind. To be gracious I accepted a nice corduroy shirt but her colors are generally not good for me and I don't want her stuff. Anyway, here it is two months later and the other day he asked again because he's ready to move it all out (and the practical piece--he goes, some of these things are lovely and still have the tags--meaning new). What's different is that this time I said, "You know B., I'll be honest. I would feel uncomfortable wearing your wife's clothing in your presence." And he immediately said, "Oh. Of course." (I thought I heard a forehead smack, not literally, but his tone was like that.) And the next day he just said he'd bagged it all up and taken it to donate. Sounded relieved.
So weird and unaware as it was, the moment he "got it" he did something appropriate about it. I wasn't creeped out. He's just a pretty transparent guy, I'm thinking. And that thought is making him feel better to me.
love
Hops
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LOL.... the hand on back illustration...
Yes, I see the Hops-reaction and how naturally it would arise. I know I've had those thoughts/feelings too. But many guys of this generation were raised with those kinds of gentlemanly manners. It was considered a sign of respect - until that respect was seen as covering up some less-positive attitudes toward women. Like opening doors, too. While I'm sure the connection arose from someone's actual experience - it was applied so broadly to all men, all the time - that it's considered a given now, that the gesture automatically MEANS the mysoginistic attitude is present. That's kind of unfair to my way of thinking.
I figure it's just a guy doing what he was taught was polite until I have reason to believe otherwise.
Yeah, I'd be creeped out dressing in his wife's clothes too. But I think you got that pegged just right.
And I have the same issue talking to someone in person - even the phone is still a bit of an issue - so digital/writing still is the best way for me to express myself. It's like too much sensory input at one time to remember what I'm trying to say and how.
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I don't think it's a "given" really, or at least not among my friends. Most, if they refer to those old-school courtesies, choose to accept them as well-meaning, courtly gestures. To some, they feel sweet. Most women I know anyway (feminists all, but man-haters none at all).
I just find them particularly symbolic in ways that trigger me, so I gotta deal with my trigger mechanism. It's tiring, you know, figuring out balance in "don't sweat the small stuff, it's all small stuff" that would lead me straight to dissolving capitulation with things I actually believe erode my dignity... and having a peaceful life and not living in a defensive posture.
That balance. Mine is clearly out of whack but the thinking is conscious and nearly constant.
This relationship may have been plopped in my path to soothe some of those primal female hurts and calm the reflexive female anger at being dominated. Or (lordy hope not) to bring it all up one more time, with me not knowing confidently where to draw the line.
Some Lighterisms in my cookies that are helping:
Beware turning my No into a Yes
Remain calm.
I am excitable. Dammit.
love
Hops
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Well B is over his flu and we're meeting in town tonight for the 3 Billboards movie, which I'm really looking forward to. Tomorrow, he's watching the game and I'll go to his place for the evening once it ends. I'm looking forward to it. He's snuggly and I think calmer now (since The Talk). We'll see!
I sense that he is less comfortable with driving at night and more physically cautious in the world. I don't mean athletically -- he golfs and plays raquetball and hikes and I have to flog myself to get moving. He is much fitter than I am but does have some vision issues, so maybe that's it. Kind of makes me think that his urgency could be about settling in for the long hard chapter with a woman at his side...because he really does sense more than I do the edge of the scythe.
I can't fault him for that because with 70 a couple years off, two does sound safer than one. What the very-elders go through, that I see all the time at work, is brutal as combat. The fight to navigate the world upright as possible, endure body breakdowns, maintain what control you can. To have an ally and/or advocate who loves you would sure make it easier. Two out of my three have signed up for the new building...which opens in April and includes assisted living (they're now in "independent" and for these two, it's unsafe) plus a memory unit, which I know they dread.
My least-favorite lady, who's got that Npower going for her delusions...needs to be there. Yesterday she lost her phone and I finally found it in a kitchen drawer. But her devoted son is very on top of things, coming to town almost twice a month, going to critical doctor visits, etc. I don't think she's long for this world...she has one kidney and it's failing and infected right now. Part of what her dementia causes is self-neglect. Simple things she needs to do (like elevate her feet and legs for 15 minutes/hr) she skips over because she's so powerfully driven not to miss one single bridge game or opportunity to be with others, because conversation and attention drive her so powerfully. She really is Nish, so I'm seeing what it's like at 90.... I worry about her still.
Hmmm. Another big B-thought is rising so I'll do a different post since it's a different thing.
xo
Hops
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Thought I'd share this summary I sent a friend who wrote to ask how it's going:
B and I are still in it, and finding it sometimes hard.
Again, in my psyche, we've only been an exclusive/real couple
since the start of December. For me, the relationship's momentum has
been a bit overwhelming, because I've been single since 1995.
B has been single under two years. And was monogamous
for 40+ years. We have radically different histories.
I have been in many more relationships and have wrestled
with being alone (and mostly managed it) for decades. He is
frantic to nail everything down and that goes against every
scrap of inner wisdom I have. Two divorces and the romantic
delusions that got me married have made me approach love
very, very differently. He is still, understandably, more like a
young man who believes that plunging in will relieve his
existential anxiety and that forcing the pace is a solution.
So. He gets frustrated over any mis-steps in communication
and I retreat from any pressure or guilting. The way I see it,
time is expansive, he and I are both healthy so desperation
about looming death is not a good reason to leap before we
really know each other, have contemplated how we'll manage
our differences realistically, and crucially, have truly considered
compatibility issues that will long outlast honeymoon feelings.
Should we keep on going, at some point I will require serious
premarital counseling. And I am confident he'll agree to it.
But here's the good news. We have bumped into some mild
conflict and are tiptoeing into some contrasting worldviews that,
in the age of Trump, are difficult to dismiss. Yet every time we
do talk it through, I have been rewarded by feeling respected
and see that he will make a huge effort to listen and understand.
I am eager to do the same for him. What I'm not entirely yet
sure about (and this is okay with me, to not yet know) is whether
these intense conversations are motivated by his desperation
to "seal the deal" (anxiety) or a real desire to learn and grow.
He does challenge my habits of independence because I am
not used to someone expecting (almost demanding) gestures or
time that I have owed no one for a long time. I'm not quite there in
terms of putting him first. That too, is okay for now. I do work, I do
write, I do have other activities I care about. And while he is very
important to me, so are my own interests. This appears
difficult for him to assimilate at times.
The thing I intend to observe and learn more about with some
more time (a bit over six weeks is not very long) is whether B
carries some anger issues under the gentle, courteous surface.
He's mentioned "fighting" with his wife but changed the subject
when I asked how those fights played out. She was alcoholic
and he told me once, with a near-tortured affect, that he had
thought he may have "driven her to it." I don't think that's true
but it does hint at volatility and/or misery between them.
Why does it matter? I have ZERO tolerance (regardless of what
others might have) for being yelled or raged at. Period. The first
time would be the last time. This is my nature, my experience, and
my self-knowledge. I would walk out the next day regardless. So it's
very important to me to explore whether there can be assurances
about that, since conflict is inevitable in any relationship. He does
(beneath the charm) have what a woman I met in a church group
once would call a "forcing energy." Toward me, anyway. And of
course, politically, I sense some of his views are very hard. His
forceful approach to moving us forward might be part of a personality
that was for years in charge of sales for a growing company. But
in fact he is a shy introvert, and I think very dependent on his partner
for comfort. So dependent that he may be petulant when not being
frequently soothed. Not sure yet but I'm sensing that.
He's socially naive and talks about others in stereotypes, which
I find nearly unendurable. Because "Indians" are pushy and don't
wait their turn with shopkeepers and that means arrogance, he's
"always had a bad opinion" of "them". So his laborious description
of how he's found one Indian neighbor to be a nice woman and it's a
huge revelation to him...made me want to tear my hair out. My deep
sense of social justice and apparently much much wider experience
with people from different cultures are in big contrast. The thing is,
though his baby steps are delightful (in perhaps getting past right-wing
stereotypes) it demands very arduous patience from me. It's hard
because I'm an impatient person with those who are slow to catch
on to humanity. B thinks and speaks and reads very slowly and
I am quick (too quick, often), verbally and mentally. I am not saying
I'm smarter than he is, I'm just faster. And twitchy with impatience
plus ADD. I worry conversely, about how my disorganization will
meet his perfectionism. These are real, appropriate concerns.
It's a big growth challenge for me to learn to slow down and be
gentle, reassuring, and ... just be better at it. I'm not more virtuous
or morally superior but I have left-wing views held passionately.
NONE of this is to say B is abusive or not a good person. But
these are real energies that, along with my own complexities and
baggage, will take real time to make our way through. I am still
optimistic but I'm not soaring. I feel calm, and within my senses,
and have no urge to bolt. It's actually surprising to feel that after
early panics, I am feeling like a grounded, adult woman who does
know who she is. And I do like having someone in my life who is
really digging in, trying hard to forge something real. I'm grateful.
B is interesting, worthwhile, and attractive to me. The process
is draining but rewarding. We're looking forward to taking a long
weekend together for more time to talk. That will be so helpful.
And his so-far-ongoing willingness to keep working at it is great.
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Amazingly perceptive analysis Hops. I'm glad you're feeling grounded now, and you seem to be refining just what your hopes and expectations are now, too. And waiting to see if can meet them.
It all sounds good.
Stereotypes are SUCH a disabling thing to forging relationships, and because I think everyone (even those trying very hard to NOT do this) still do to one degree or another... we have to figure out just how much "slack" to cut others and ourselves. And find ways to communicate that. That's probably a whole topic in/of itself.
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Thanks, (((Amber))).
It's just that India is a big continent...so many "theys" live there, golly.
:lol: :shock:
I will vent with my friend Kushal (best bud at last university job).
hugs
Hops
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Thanks, Amber.
Interestingly, the friend I sent that email to hasn't responded.
I think her reaction will be a sort of friendship test. My guess is her own judgmental side will kick in.
I think a Stereotypes thread sounds really interesting.
hugs
Hops
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Hops, that's such a good (and incredibly honest) piece about B that I really don't think you need to have any concerns about whether you are over or under reacting to things, or putting things that are important to you to one side. I think you sound more like a T than a T! Lol. I think it's great that you are so open to the things you aren't keen on (where B's concerned) but also be willing to get to know him better to find out whether that will be a problem or not. I do think it's good that he's listened to your concerns when you've raised them and not just dismissed them. When is your weekend away coming up, is it soon? xx
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To my surprise, The Trip (one day, one overnight) went well!
We drove about 3.5 hours to a little mountain town known for Appalachian music. Stayed in an old hotel. My room was fine and his was too. We saw some extraordinary musicians...a trio that elevates bluegrass to something near classical at a skill and emotional level I've seldom heard. They were electrifying; I've spent some time this morning reading about them and listening to various performances. (The opening act was standard old-time country and capped off by a religious lecture and aggressive reminders about Old Glory). The second group (brothers), when they blew us out of our seats with humane, sublime warmth and blazing-delicate proficiency was a revelation. No pun intended. What I've read about their childhood in Europe, though the info is limited, gives depth to their humanitarian philosophy, which truly comes through in their playing.)
I got to know B a lot better and vice versa. Just having that much more time--driving, exploring, dealing with the daily...was good for us. He is bewildered by my level of empathy, honestly bewildered. I talk about human culture and about animals from a different place. He has a view of humanity as dark and savage (which explains a lot of his anxiety, I think). He was raised by loving but demanding parents (particularly his father) on a small farm --though his Dad was a lawyer, they had the farm) and did hard physical labor his whole life (while I was reading my way onto another planet). He told me a lot more about his feelings at the Academy...like, when the day started with very hard runs he would burst across the campus running flat out with a sense of truly ferocious drive and elation. (He was so proud of his squad being Honor Squad two years out of four). He kept that up for years, a huge drive to achieve, accomplish, be the best he could be...etc.
I told him how much my four years of teaching poetry in: urban, suburban, ghetto and Appalachian impoverished schools had affected me. Without fail, children were open, full of wonder, brave and powerful. More concerned with justice than any adult I've ever met. It was good to hear the deep influences we've had in our lives.
While he was exerting himself as a powerful athlete and training for the military (he spent years at the Pentagon doing engineering), I was hiding under the covers, trembling, trying to survive while too sensitive to cope and overwhelmed by cruelties. And about as athletic as a turnip.
He said he does respond to life more with his brain than his heart. He also said he is somewhat OCD. I knew that but hearing him simply acknowledge it was healing. I asked in a gentle way, do you feel that after all those years of intensive air force discipline and later executive life, you might have a habit of managing people a lot? (He had required THREE phone calls to discuss what we'd take for lunch on the road. He is very obsessive about both food and plans and it drives me a little batty.) Anyway, he said, "Yes. You don't like it." And I just responded, "No, I don't."
What was nice about that exchange was it was just real. Free of anger. Free of defensiveness. And I think for all my concern that he might have some anger struggles, the way he can also just be honest and non-defensive is encouraging. He does seem intent on truthfulness, and that's big.
I still think the outcome's unknown and we'd have a ton of work to do. He has visions in his head about relationships that are unreal for me. An overwhelming fantasy of what "us" would be or "married" would mean, in terms of filling in his daydreams OR reflecting his 40+ years of previous partnership. I have no idea if I could make him happy when he has such drive to complete a fantasy and I am so very different in tastes and lifestyle than he's used to. But I do feel encouraged that he continues to listen and is braver than I thought, willing to inch out of his comfort zone.
It was a good time.
Now I'm mostly looking forward to my T in an hour, and picking up my pooch after that. It was just so strange last night, not having her here....
love y'all,
Hops
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Hops I'm really glad you had a good time. There's some truly interesting music coming from the Bluegrass side of music these days. Almost a revival of the old "folkie" stuff that got buried under rock & roll.
I have more to say, I think... but I'm gonna let it roll around in my head for awhile and see it even makes sense, and if I really know what I'm trying to say.
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I'm glad you had a good time, Hops. I'm glad you and B can see each other..... really see.
B may have his visions of married life, but you keep him grounded, my dear. You certainly aren't a prop in a man's life.....not that he sees women that way. Just say'in..... falling into someone else's happy fantasy is an uncomfortable place to fall, IME.
I'm happy to read you're communicating so well with B. Come what may..... that's hopeful.
Lighter.
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Naw, I didn't have any more to say than, I'm glad you had fun and that you two are getting along just FINE... LOL.
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Thanks, Amber (and Lighter!).
I feel as though I've stopped fearing whether or not he is a well-intentioned or decent person. I'm still concerned about what I consider cruel politics, but getting to know him better helps me see that this has a logic to it that comes from the environments he's lived in and the people he's admired. They sadden me but being angry about it is pointless. On another level it's moving to find ourselves connecting (as best we can) even across such an enormous gulf in world view. And there is no difference in why I have my "soft, sloppy" views, either. It's the environments I've lived in and the people I've been inspired by. Same same. Different different. So maybe in our own little way, whether it's lifelong or not, we've been discovering something hopeful. To reach across that gulf with kindness or even love is a big deal, given the state of society. I don't know whether I should, or he should, sacrifice the rest of our lives to such diplomacy, but it's been good to see people can.
Where I see challenge, and don't yet know whether I can overcome it, is in the personality stuff. My own faults, laziness, stubbornness, impatience, etc. are very big to me and could become so to him. My other weaknesses -- ADD, cowardice, difficulty sharing my space and time, fear of enmeshment -- could be deal breakers too.
What I struggle to cope with about him are:
The OCD. His slowness and timidity about decisions, making transitions, obsessssssssssssions about food planning especially -- are hugely difficult for me. I become impatient, irritable -- and stressed, because I do not want to be irritable about things he can't help.
The managerial side. It's huge. And also seems like a compulsion. He is SO attached to being paternalistic, in charge, and being right because he’s successful...this drives me bonkers. He does listen to my perspectives attentively, so I think the opinion differences aren't as big a deal as the sort of "energy" all his “managing” can insert into being together.
Fantasy vs reality. I've belatedly caught on to an issue (you get this Lighter). He constantly calls to tell me about "if you were here, I would kiss you, and then we would sit on the sofa, and then you would.... etc etc." His fantasizing is so detailed and engineery that for me, it drains desire and spontaneity. I do think a lot of the time he is in his head, planning, engineering a future, and thus not entering deeply into the present (except for expressing need for touch).
Back to management. After a lovely time, he'll make a "talking points takeaway" kind of executive summary. "That was a very good kiss." "For tonight you get an A+." He is forever making evaluative ‘grading’ pronouncements about me or us. He says these are compliments, but something in me is turned off. I don’t think he means to be condescending, but I struggle not to take it that way.
Ignorance. He is not much of a reader. He doesn’t spend a lot of time thinking about society or culture, or least way less than I do. He focuses on preserving the status quo and following the existing “rules” he’s familiar with. He doesn’t challenge class things, or envision a different world. In fairness, he knows what has worked for him in life, and he got rich. But he’s oblivious to white and male privilege, which I find just intellectually dull. I don’t want him to feel guilty for his good fortune, and he’s right that people create their own luck in many ways, but when it comes to empathy for the unlucky plus acceptance of how cruel this culture is to the vulnerable, he seems clueless. (Maybe if I were a rich older white man I wouldn’t want to look at it either.)
Lucky for B (hah), I’m going to give him a Tim Wise book called Under the Affluence. I don’t want to “train” or “educate” B myself but if he’d at least read that book, I’d feel more hopeful.
All that said I do feel more hopeful after this trip. And I can’t change him, just work to figure out whether I have the goodness and patience I’d need to become his mate. I also have to figure out a huge one….money. The next Big Thing we’ll need to find our way through is how to establish understandings about money (him rich, me church mouse) so that the gulf (again with the gulfs!) would not, in times of disagreement or disappointment, rise up to kill love.
I would love some security. I would LOATHE anyone who held money-power over my head. That’s a scary one.
I would love y’alls random thoughts about that.
Thanks for hanging in on the Heist!
xo
Hops
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Thank you! I need to think about something/someone else for a bit.
Shoe was on the other foot, with Mike & I. I didn't want him to suffer ego-wounds or feel as if I was in control of all money decisions. We never really had a "formal" agreement about it, once his old debt was cleared. What we did do, is make money decisions over a certain amount, a discussion and joint agreement process. That gave him latitude to feel free enough with the checkbook, to do his favorite bargain shopping, etc. without anyone looking over his shoulder. And of course, going through estate planning... we had to talk about and formalize the arrangements for my girls and his D.
But with Ex#2... money was definitely weaponized, to maintain his preferred balance of power. Oh sure, my paycheck went into my checking... and I paid my debts and bills... but security of the financial type all resided with him, until I jumped off of that cliff and completely walked away from my equity in the place we built together. It was that important to my emotional survival to do so.
Something I insisted on - and will again - is always having my own money, separate checking acct, etc. We even had a separate household account for awhile, while we were working out the biggest problems about communicating about money. Every single couple goes through this. It helps if you both can talk about it in practical terms without one person getting defensive - or insisting only one way is "right" and will work.
I do think relationships between people who come from such different past lives can work. But it's going to take the work you two have already been doing... trying to see things from the other's point of view and actually "understand" - not just respect/tolerate. That's how you'll find the common ground between the two points. In a nutshell, you'll have to decide if you can live with the other on a daily basis... accepting that this is who the other is. That includes accepting Hops' warts & all too. Without keeping score.
OH... and about his business/managerial persona?? Best thing you can do is remember you might have to be more assertive than normal about your druthers, preferences, etc. It'll help remind him that a partnership doesn't brook one person always giving orders. Think of it, as he's hard of hearing, when it comes to considering other people's wants/needs... and not being all that good at reading emotional body language either. LOL.
There, I did have something useful to say. I hope! ;)
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INCREDIBLY useful, Amber. Thank you so much.
Late to work so I'll check in later but just know that was such a thoughtful, reality-based response...it helps me think. (One of my challenges...thinking so much sometimes renders me incapable of a grain of common sense.)
Thank you!
xxxooo
Hops
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That was great advice about money perspective, Amber, thank you again.
I'm just all over the place.
I've gained 5lb since meeting B, purely stress and comfort eating.
I know any new relationship is hard but adapting to him is really a challenge.
I wonder at times whether it's TOO hard, and whether I'm trying to force myself to continue because I'm so afraid of old age. That makes me feel badly about myself. Then again, when we connect and talk I start feeling warm and hopeful. What concerns me is how rapidly that evaporates.
I don't like having him come to my house. It's irrational but I feel invaded, and resent tidying up. I guess I'm expecting another "grade" though all he's said is, "Your house is neat!" (Not tidy neat but cool neat, with art and stuff.)
So I've been avoiding getting ready all day and will have to do that now in a rush as he arrives in an hour and a half.
I wish I knew why I go from feeling so yucky and fighting off the urge to end it, and so hopeful.
Je do not make sense.
xo
Hops
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Maybe....
You were hoping for an easier compatibility?
You know there are things about you that aren't going to change; because you're not willing to give them up... and you're afraid that's going to be a problem for him. (Have you ASKED him yet?)
You really are bothered by those things you perceive and feel... that might not be what he intended, and he's not tuned in to your level of sensitivity (the "grades") to know he's stepping on your toes. (You probably ought to bring it up.)
Or maybe you're just starting to get cold feet and honestly don't want to have to work that hard. (Which IMO, is valid - but right now I'm the poster girl for cold feet.)
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Oy....Hops. I got nothin.
Well....maybe you're thinking too hard about this. Maybe paying attention to the feelings, as they come up, with less worry about what they could mean.
This is about exploring a new relationship with all the possibilities it might entail. Leave fear out for a while and breath.....write down how you feel. Read it. Write some more.
You'll figure this out. Please trust you will.
Lighter
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Thank you guys, so much.
I realize I build up all this anxiety and spend hours dueling with fantasy B, big scary conservative man...and then when he got here (hiding behind roses) all he really wants is to eat together, cuddle with pooch for a movie. And he is very very happy with simple connection.
I feel more comfortable touching him than I did, and it was a sweet cozy evening.
I think I monsterize him when he's absent (reading politics all morning doesn't help) but actually with him, I am feeling more at ease. The weekend trip really did help.
It's confusing but you give me courage to just be present and keep having a little confidence. Thank you Lighter for saying I'll know when I need to. I needed to hear that. And Amber, thank you for reminding me to name my fears and ask my questions.
I feel calmer. Today was ridiculously anxious and then the evening was sweet and peaceful. Duh.
love to youse,
Hops
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Wow I've missed loads, the board seems to have got really busy in a few short days and Hops you seem to have crammed in a month's worth of stuff in a couple of days! I'm glad the weekend was good :) I understand the 'is this good, is it not, am I scared, am I happy' thing (and sometimes we're just scared of being happy, right? One thing that struck me early on was this:
Where I see challenge, and don't yet know whether I can overcome it, is in the personality stuff. My own faults, laziness, stubbornness, impatience, etc. are very big to me and could become so to him. My other weaknesses -- ADD, cowardice, difficulty sharing my space and time, fear of enmeshment -- could be deal breakers too.
I know we don't know each other in real life and I know what comes across on a forum tends to be a certain aspect of a person and we edit ourselves and so on - but this description of you is the opposite of the way you have always come across to me.
Laziness - you've worked all your life, paid and unpaid. You dealt with that whole situation with your mum and your brother, and I remember reading on here about a big basement you had to clear out whilst your back was so bad you could hardly sit some days. The situation with your D was/is so complex and has required so much work and you've worked really hard on yourself and with yourself all through that, refusing to become bitter, resentful, or throw in the towel. You had that horrible N Boss that you put up with for years and when that finished you slogged through endless job applications and then reinvented yourself as a self employed carer and companion - all at a time when a lot of people would have just taken their pension and sat themselves in front of the telly. Added to which you refurbished your house, took in pooch (who needed a whole lot of love in those early days) and you're writing a book! Lazy is not a word that springs to mind when I think of you, Miss Hops :)
And then I can carry on in the same vein, basically; I think the way you've dealt with a lot of difficult people around you over the years and the achingly difficult situation with your D shows you are far from either stubborn or impatient - just this situation with B has shown how flexible and patient you are with other people. ADD is a tough condition to live with and shows strength, not weakness and cowardice, I don't think I can think of many people who are braver than you are. I don't know why you think about yourself in this way, Hops, as it's so different to the way you come across on here? And sharing space and time and avoiding enmeshment - I think these are just sensible ways to live, I don't see anything wrong with that. So I guess what's coming across for me is still a sense that you're not thinking you're good enough for B - but he seems delighted with you? I know I find it very hard to accept people can like me for me, including and/or despite my 'faults' - so I don't know if there's still an element of that underscoring all of this?
I get where you're coming from with the personality differences (although I love the fact that he loves your empathy and consideration for others - I think you might inspire him to think outside his comfortable box and show him a world he hasn't encountered before and that can only be a good thing). A friend of mine has an OCD about food type of boyfriend and it drove her nuts in the early days as well. What she did was basically give him full responsibility for all meals - he shops, prepares, whizzes about in the kitchen and enjoys every minute of it and she sits down to lovely meals that she doesn't have to lift a finger to prepare. I don't know if that sort of arrangement would work for you but I thought I'd mention in as an example of how some things can be shifted around to make them a bit easier to manage? In some cases; I'm sure there are some ways it doesn't work :)
Money - I'm very territorial about my cash and I hate wasting it on things that other people think of as treats (I think "I could have done that at home for £3 instead of spending £15). After a couple of horrible money + men experiences in the past I think the only way I would be comfortable financially with someone else would be to have a joint account into which we both paid the same for joint and household expenses and then our own accounts for anything else - to spend as each other sees fit. I think money can cause enormous problems but you have held your own for many years, Hops, I don't think there will be a financial situation that you can't deal with. Yes it's unbalanced but equally if you were both on similar incomes I bet there would still be imbalances in how the money was spent or managed. I think it's just one of those things where perhaps you agree on joint things and then do what you like with what's left.
I do a lot of that 'what if' planning in my head and I'm trying really hard to let it go at the minute. I think it comes from our fear - if we can plan what to do if x, y or z happens then we're safer. I think it comes from those endless years of being under attack, or just from having the rug pulled from under us and being left to pick up the pieces. I'm trying really hard at the moment to focus on asking questions, listening to the answer and then asking more questions, instead of my usual position of trying to imagine the questions and then having a defence in place. I did notice that when I talk to people I'm usually listening out for the barb or criticism and being ready to fend it off, instead of just listening to what they say and then asking more about it, without thinking about myself in that context, if that makes any sense? I think I've just confused myself now lol, but for example (and this is a silly thing) I'm going to the hairdresser this morning and usually I go into a situation with my defences up and ready to answer questions about my son (who will be with me) or defend other aspects of my life. I kind of plan it all out in my mind so I'm ready. But what I'm noticing more is that most other people aren't actually waiting to tear me down, they're just chatting to pass the time. So what I'm thinking now is how much I don't know about other people, because I'm not asking questions, I'm waiting to justify my existence to them. So I'm trying to change that to ask more questions and take it as it comes instead of trying to micro manage it in my mind beforehand.
I don't know if that makes sense or if that's how you feel about what you do (in relation to getting ready to B coming to visit) but it's what sprung to mind when I read your post so I thought I would waffle on about it :) xx
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Hopsy... from me to you... a piece of very serious advice. Stop seeing people as "being" their politics, you seriously limit the possibilities of genuine connection. This is why I take issue with how most people think about how people manifest "the political is personal" idea.
I work on this a lot too. Coming from a more traditional background - I can cringe and withdraw when I'm invited to social things with people I know are proud of their progressive liberal politics and value system. Yes, I want to fit them into a 2-dimensional cartoon of expectations about them... and then confirmation bias shows up... and we're off to the races and I have a miserable time. And that's MY FAULT... I don't just let them be themselves and enjoy that, my brain feels compelled to categorize/judge. Pfffft. My brain is stupid sometimes.
I know there are social energies at work that validate that process too. And I'm fighting them. I'm using my ability to "see" the person -- not just their political beliefs -- and to remind myself that "politics" aren't values... or morality... or character... and that "politics" only makes up about .0000000000001% of what is important in life. It's the old truism about bureaucracy come to life in a really malevolent way in today's "virtual reality of media" culture.
That truism is: the only thing Bureaucracy cares about is perpetuating itself and it's power. Kinda sounds N-ish to me. Our so-called "politics" is doing the same thing. None of the "isms" we see in the media (and I mean all of it) are 100% good or bad. There are bits & pieces of things that are terribly important in each end of that continuum, and to go forward - together - requires everyone getting to realize some of those important things and to keep working to stifle the bad things, and make things better for everyone.
I think a definition is called for, that defines politics as: the process by which we govern ourselves as a society. End definition. No more; no less. It doesn't have a blessed thing to do with compassion, empathy, or any of the other stuff that's been conflated into our "understanding" of politics. That stuff has gotten mixed up into politics, because essentially - politics is really BORING and mechanical processes. Politicians couldn't sell it or themselves; it wasn't sexy enough.
You can't legislate morality - and have it work. Proven over & over again. And it's because government & politics is a whole different realm of life. A different category - like the difference between biological and emotional/intellectual life. Somehow, we as a people (around the world, IMO) have forgotten that very real fact.
Political beliefs don't determine whether a person cares about the people they interact with, their motivations in life, or how "good" a person they are. Political beliefs are about as important a definition of human being as weight, height, eye/hair color.
(Edited for length, ranty babbling, and sense of frustration at the whole virtual media world that inflates the importance of politics way beyond it's utility.)
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PS - ya know I loves ya - BECAUSE of your compassion, empathy, and POLITICAL beliefs etc - and not in spite of it. Even though we have different beliefs about how best to self-govern.
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Thanks, Amber. This is exceedingly smart. Thank you for the reminder, and for teasing out that thing I was doing. Gluing the politics onto the person. I do think compassion or its lack is part of policy but also think I was billboardizing B...he doesn't behave as though he craves political debate and it's unfair to us both to let that be a big focus. And to project onto him my fears of his political "type."
And Tupp, I have to say I wish there was no ocean between us, because your generosity of spirit just blows me away. There is so much kindness and validation in what you wrote that it brought tears to my eyes. I so hope a few new people will appear in your life who can appreciate who you really are because they'll be very lucky to enjoy your friendship. (And I liked hearing that the man friend makes you laugh! Nobody deserves it more.) I also appreciate how much you understand fear and tease out how it can weave in and out of otherwise rational thinking. You're really deft in that, seeing the threads in the weave very clearly. Thanks.
Okay, team. So here's a new one. I may have mentioned that B and I were attending a "life stories" workshop. B felt out of his comfort zone but gamely attended the first session. It's a 5-class thing with "homework" (led by a university psychologist recently retired from ministry, with a very good reputation as a teacher) about life overviews, weaving in the insights of key developments in psychology. I have been pretty excited about how it could be a unique way for us to get to know each other on a deeper level. B also for the first time met a close friend of mine there.
He had asked when I first told him about it if he could drop out if he didn't like it, and made a remark afterward -- "Well, I could tell I didn't attend a liberal arts college." But nothing else negative. (Forgot...he also said afterward he felt some "apprehension" about telling personal stories in the small-group sessions planned. I reassured him he was welcome and would be liked and it was fine to "just be B." That doesn't mean my reassurance worked, of course....) He was referring with the "liberal arts" remark to how so many of the 16 people were nodding in recognition of major psychology names, like Brenae whatsit (vulnerability TED talk fame), Bettleheim, Rollo May, etc.
Anyway, we were committed to doing it together and though we forgot, had even talked about filling in our "timeline" charts last weekend. He's my partner as the structure is to tell your stories, get them down in a thematic way, divided by major transitions in your life, to your class partner.
Next session's this Monday. So, last night he calls and in a very Executive Tone I've heard him use and always been baffled by, as it's just kind of cold and detached, informed me that he has an opportunity to go to Florida and play golf with a friend and he's leaving Monday, has already booked his flight. And that he realizes that means he'll miss the second class but that's okay, I can take notes. And he's all kind of crisp and cold about it. When it sank in I realized I felt very disappointed. It's not that I couldn't come around to the outcome (say, if he'd said, I hate to do this but it's a special friend I haven't seen in forever and a really major chance that would mean a lot to me, do you think we could still benefit from the workshop if I miss the second session and would you forgive me for wanting to go?). I know for a fact that if he'd asked me about it that way, or even consulted me as though my feelings about it mattered, I'd probably have said...of course. It's not ideal to miss it but I can hear how much this getaway would mean to you. Please go.
But. The Tone. And the sense that it was like an executive handing down a decision to an employee or someone down the hierarchy, really really did not sit well.
I called him back. Didn't address The Tone but said in honesty, I'm disappointed. I'm thinking if you don't go I probably won't continue myself, because without my partner, there's not a lot of point for me. (I've done similar classes before.) But I do hope you have a good time. Asked him a couple generic questions just to express interest and his replies were, It's just a friend. It's in the Orlando area. Obviously didn't want to share anything about it other than that he is going.
I was hurt and angry about The Tone more than the outcome. It's not the end of the world if we don't do this workshop. But the way he announced it and the coldness (maybe because he knew he was breaking a commitment casually, and for...golf), really got me.
I was feeling pretty melty after our Valentine's evening but have whiplash from the next day. He's called since asking me to come out Saturday (I initially said yes) and then this morning, because of weather predictions, left a message to change it to tonight.
I just left him a message that I'd rather talk next week when he got back and to have a good trip. I mean that sincerely...I do want him to relax and enjoy his favorite sport. And I know I need some more time to evaluate this.
What's going on in my mind is the sudden recognition that this is A Pattern. Of making unilateral decisions about things that affect us both without talking to me about it. (Overriding or not considering or including me.) One example was our battles over our own trip. He offers 7 days away, I say (in December) not ready for that but would love a long weekend, two rooms, would that work?. He says Yes, I'm in! Then calls to tell me it's the 7-day thing and we need to do it because the availability changed and he'd be "very disappointed" if we don't go. Sorry, I'm not ready for that and it's not what we agreed to, and he backs down and when we go, we have a great time on our overnight. (But in there was also his unilateral decision to book ONE room instead of the two we'd agreed to, which he also had to "undo." And that caused me similar feelings and tension, the sense of being again over-ridden by a unilateral decision he made because that's what he wanted and I was just supposed to go along with it. I didn't and yay for me, but it is tiring to have to be so assertive All the Damn Time.)
while back I asked B to share if he felt okay doing so, what were the fights with his wife about. (He'd referred to them fighting a lot, and it sounded intense.) The answer he gave me was that he always put work first, and as one example, he would promise repeatedly to be home by a particular time for a dinner she'd made, and just not do it...part of it was his compulsion to do more work or a feeling he just needed to do one more thing, etc. (Maybe part OCD stuff.) But the effect, I gathered, was that over and over he broke his promises to her. And it really messed them up.
That's why I'm thinking this is a flag. Mainly because of The Tone (which I think has to do with discomfort with what he's doing, as far as the relationship goes...he's retreating into a "cold executive" mode because he doesn't want to be challenged). It's a very dominant, detached and not pleasant thing to listen to.
It hurt my feelings and I also felt angry. I don't want to be talked to like an employee or an underling. And now I think I see that this is a place he'll go and a way he'll talk to the woman in his life.
I'm not into that. If I'm going to establish an intimate relationship or marriage at this chapter of life I'm damn well going to be an equal partner. And you know I've been worrying about power issues anyway, as they may relate to money. So I've got a new feeling of concern about The Executive.
Thanks for listening, y'all, so much. I will be on tenterhooks 'til I get your perspectives, which are so freaking valuable to me.
love,
Hops
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Hopsie, you deserve all the kindness and validation that anyone can give you, you are Mrs Amazing and you need to keep telling yourself that (or let other people tell you :) ). I am very happy to oblige :)
The Tone - yep, I can see why it bothered you. I guess the whole part of the 'getting to know you' bit of any relationship is this sort of thing - dealing with the negatives. It's great that he wanted/agreed to take the class with you. It's understandable that he might not be into it or feel comfortable doing it. But yes, I can see how the decision to not come and not discuss it (or perhaps just be honest and say he doesn't want to do it) doesn't feel good and yes, it does read that he's just decided he's doing something else and gone ahead and arranged it despite the fact you've made these other plans together. So no, I wouldn't be feeling too chirpy about it and yes, it does echo the 'let's go away for a week, okay a weekend, oh, I've arranged a week' scenario. And yes, he probably is used to just doing what he wants and other people fitting in with that (and maybe The Tone is the sort of default mode for that - I have a tone I use on my son when he's naughty and he says (to the cat); "Oh no - she's doing the voice"). But then what to do? He might be open to talking about it and doing something to change it? He seems to have been pretty open to other things you've talked about and willing to accept he might need to work on himself a bit. Then I guess the question is do you have the energy to sit down and discuss it or does it feel like a big block that might be too big to work through? xx
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Thank you, Tupp. That's a spot-on summary. (Jeez, I could try BRIEF?)
I'm still pissed. And worried. One incidence means little but it just hit me last night as a Pattern. One I have major reservations about. I can try to understand The Tone (as I think you do) as avoidance and be sympathetic that he's being indirect or something because it's uncomfortable to risk disappointing me and he doesn't want to feel that, or is acting out his discomfort with the class in this way, instead of telling me. I think I can almost always understand someone if I get what they're doing, and even with sympathy. But also, I have several Tshirts from previous times in my life when I've put understanding the other first, at great effort and for long periods, and tending to my feelings second. (To the point that I took 7 years to reach a conclusion to end it, long after I should have.)
What I don't know is whether he is willing or capable of changing this. Sounds like a core thing that didn't change over 40+ years of marriage. So why would it change at 73 for a relatively new girlfriend? Am I looking at an unrealistic challenge for a relationship in this chapter of my life?
I know it's not possible to shield oneself from risk or hurt. But this issue feels significant. I know what being over-ridden or disregarded feels like and I don't want to spend long feeling that way.
I see my T Monday and will go over it with him. I remember him saying, "You have to figure out...do you really like this guy?" Yes, I do like B in a lot of ways. But I also suspect myself of whitewashing some entitlement kinds of things that I dislike, because I'm scared of the future. And I don't like that in myself.
This spat was the first time I unequivocally felt more angry than confused. The Tone is something I do not want to live with, honestly. I am not a hireling or a subordinate. And that's exactly how it felt.
Aaaaarrrrgggh, and thank you for looking at it so thoughtfully.
love
Hops
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Hops:
I'm profoundly impressed by your ongoing positive communication with B. You're patient, assertive, and compassionate..... cracking on with him isn't easy, I'm sure, when he surprises you like this.
My feeling is that you could be forming a relationship worth having....that you're building something strong and lasting.
I think you take this one issue at a time. Address this the way you've addressed everything else. Listen to his response. Accept what he has to say with kindness, and believe him when he tells you who he is.
About having to be assertive all the time. I know it's exhausting. It is. It's also good practice, and information. If it doesn't work out you'll know what this is when you see it again. You'll know more about what you can and can't accept in a relationship.
Stay strong, Amazon Hops. He might pleasantly surprised you. I know I was surprised to read get went to the class with you. That means something, imo.
Lighter
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I think I asked if you had the energy & desire to be this assertive all the time. It's an important question, because at our age - who wants to work that hard? At the same time, announcing that he's going to miss a class - that was important to you - for another social arrangement sounds like disrespect and dishonesty, to me. Especially with the tone.
So, I have my own executive tone of voice, in which I announce things and make ultimatums. I would state, in simple clear words... that I was hurt over the decision to bail on the commitment he'd already made, to go through the class with you. THEN, I'd ask him directly: did that class make you uncomfortable? And I'd expect an explanation about why he was uncomfortable and why he didn't see that as a challenge.
Only then, would I decide if I was righteously angry with him. And if I was, he would damn sure know it at that point.
But that's me, and I don't have any issues with facing a confrontation head-on. Calling him out. I wouldn't just accept his "pronouncement" about how he was spending that next class time without letting him know - front & center - exactly how I felt about it. And if he didn't like it, well I hear Florida's nice this time of year.
Your instincts about this ring true to me Hops; about how he sees the person who is his "wife" and I can fully understand that it's pushing your red alert buttons. It would mine, too. It kinda offsets all the work you've been doing (on your side) to give him the benefit of the doubt, see where things go and how you feel... and this is actual treatment, reality of behavior, that you will have to choose whether to accept or not.
Sadly, letting the first instance of it go... can contribute to the creation of the pattern. So I'd first protest it and then sit back as objectively as possible and analyze his response. I might even tell him, I'll be grading him on it. One person doesn't get to be "boss" in a relationship. Ever. In my book. As a couple, it's considered MANNERS to consult with the partner before making significant decisions that affect plans already made. It is rude, inconsiderate, and yes, "entitled" too.
I'll save the rest of my outraged suppositions until more is known about what's really going on here.
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I agree with Skep and Lighter here, deal with this as you have with all the other things that have come up. I think it might be a good thing for him to know it made you feel angry - just to let him know Hops' empathy, understanding and desire to see things from another point of view doesn't equal pushover.
He may have been like this all through his marriage without changing because his wife never told him to. Perhaps she just accepted it as part of who he is, or genuinely didn't mind or notice it. Doesn't mean that you have to do the same, or that he isn't capable of changing now.
It's okay to be scared of the future. It's normal! Scared of being alone, scared of being with someone and not being happy, scared of being happy and losing the person - so many things to be scared of, I don't think it's bad or wrong that you feel this way and I don't think it should be something you don't like in yourself. I think it's just part of being human. You deserve happiness. But yes, pay attention to the flag, particularly as it's a pattern you've been in before and taken a long time to get away from. Perhaps he just said it in a way that he didn't mean to - perhaps this is how he is when he's doing what he wants. Maybe he does see his partner as being secondary to his needs. Maybe he felt bad about blowing you off and he became standoffish to put some space there. But yes, I think he should have either spoken to you about it before he decided what to do or just been honest and told you he doesn't want to do the group (if that's what the real issue is for him here). If he's away for a few days now you've got time to calm down, think about things, talk it through with your T and come to a neutral point in yourself again, before you talk to him about it.
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Thank you, Lighter. I'm surprised by your positive outlook on it but that was nice to hear. In fact, I'd been thinking about what you've said so many times--Don't make excuses for bad behavior. Believe him when he shows you who he is, etc. So this behavior and tone I'm talking about don't seem "bad" to you, or like I'm seeing behind the curtain kindsa things?
I really appreciate your perspective. (I was happy he went to the first class too. But I feel as though he kind of wiped that out by sabotaging the rest of it...). Oh well, he'll be happy golfing with another executive and maybe this is his own signal that we're not quite a fit. He's going to be in his familiar comfort zone.
Sigh. Thanks again.
love
Hops
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Tupp, you caught it all. Every nuance.
Except the one about fear of the future being about being alone or not. The fear I carry in the back of my mind that I feel ashamed of is that although I'm anti-dependency, I am afraid of winding up too poor to have help I'll need as an old woman. That fear. (Not just a loneliness fear.) I don't feel good about myself having that thought roll by because I do not want to think of any relationship as a security blanket. I didn't go hunting for a well-off man and never have, B was a spontaneous surprise. But it's been true there's been some relief within happy thoughts in imagining that I'd be "safe now." (My old gent showed me paperwork today for the new assisted living wing we'll move him to in spring. A small 1BR apartment costs more than twice my Social Security. And this is a moderate retirement community. So...I do have fears. They're pretty realistic, unfortunately.)
Clearly, I can walk away from that piece. I have before, and from a much bigger kind of security. It's a principle I can pull around me again. In fact, I probably will. It's just harder now, at my age.
But the most important thing is to figure out how serious this pattern of his is, what it may represent, and whether I want to live with that. I will definitely calm down over the weekend and talking to my T Monday will help too.
I just have a feeling it's going to be ending. I'll be okay if it does, though. Just sad for a while.
xo
Hops
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Amber, yes and yes.
It's the "boss" (or "executive") approach.
It's not amusing to me any more. It hurt and I did feel disrespected. Anger yup, but that passes with me quickly. I just don't like feeling it, and it's also pointless. A calm conversation will happen but for some reason, I'm thinking I've been over-optimistic about all the obstacles. It took this one for me to think, uh-oh, maybe this is too much.
I am positive the class made him uncomfortable and I think his curt, cold, dismissive way of making his pronouncement (with an implicit "deal with it and don't challenge me" kind of tone) was what got to me most. Not just that he changed the plan, but WAY he did it without consideration or communication (he thinks telling me of a change IS communication, but he doesn't get the unilateral thing, and just announcing his decision afterward is different from partnership, two-way, alla that...)
If Valentine's Day was the official end of the honeymoon period, he did a bang-up job of snapping me out of it!
I didn't hear any real regret for me in his voice. The Tone doesn't include that.
Oy. Thank you a lot for seeing the flag wave along with me. Doesn't mean we won't work our way through it, but it is a real flag, I see it with my own eyes. And if I have learned anything, it's that a red flag is not a pretty red curtain.
love
Hops
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Tupp, you caught it all. Every nuance.
Except the one about fear of the future being about being alone or not. The fear I carry in the back of my mind that I feel ashamed of is that although I'm anti-dependency, I am afraid of winding up too poor to have help I'll need as an old woman. That fear. (Not just a loneliness fear.) I don't feel good about myself having that thought roll by because I do not want to think of any relationship as a security blanket. I didn't go hunting for a well-off man and never have, B was a spontaneous surprise. But it's been true there's been some relief within happy thoughts in imagining that I'd be "safe now." (My old gent showed me paperwork today for the new assisted living wing we'll move him to in spring. A small 1BR apartment costs more than twice my Social Security. And this is a moderate retirement community. So...I do have fears. They're pretty realistic, unfortunately.)
Clearly, I can walk away from that piece. I have before, and from a much bigger kind of security. It's a principle I can pull around me again. In fact, I probably will. It's just harder now, at my age.
But the most important thing is to figure out how serious this pattern of his is, what it may represent, and whether I want to live with that. I will definitely calm down over the weekend and talking to my T Monday will help too.
I just have a feeling it's going to be ending. I'll be okay if it does, though. Just sad for a while.
xo
Hops
((((((((((((((((((((Hops))))))))))))))))))))))) Your fear about ending up unable to pay for care is perfectly justified, reasonable, sensible (oh my days, I know so many people who seem to think they'll never be in a situation where they might need help and they seem to think if they do, it will magically appear out of the sky). But I don't think it's something you should feel ashamed of feeling or in any way negative about. You haven't/aren't looking at B as a safety net, far from it - this has been/is an exercise in you jumping in to a whole pit of scary thoughts, feelings and emotions, and you've done it the way you do everything else - kindly, warmly, focusing on those around you and being soooo aware of how you think, feel, respond, whilst still being aware that other people respond differently and being open to that. If you were in any way looking for a man to fix all of this you'd simply be going along with everything B wants so that you can get that ring on your finger. And you're not, far from it. I think I'm just saying please don't see the way that you feel about things in the future as a bad thing - I think your fears are perfectly justified (and sadly real - many people do end up without the care they need in later life) and I don't want you to feel bad about feeling that way. You're in this situation with B now precisely because you aren't letting those fears dictate what you want out of life. You're so strong, Hopsie, and that's probably why B's 'take no prisoners' tone has cut such a welt in you. Hopsie isn't told what to do :)
It may be that this is the ending and do you know what, I'll feel sad about it if it is. I've been so impressed by the way you've gone into this. A lot of the things that have come up already would have had me heading for the hills but you've stuck in there, talked, thought, processed and worked through it. I get that this one feels like a bigger 'uh oh'. But yes, a bit of time for the feelings to settle, a good chat with the T, a conversation with B. Maybe a little break without seeing or speaking to him if that feels in order. I just think whichever way it goes you will make the right decisions for you, even if it's hard one that leaves you feeling that the future might be bleak. We are all here for you, Hops, we've got your back xx xx xx
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Tupps is nailing it, lately!
If you were content with a "relationship of convenience" - B might actually work out really well. But I think you owe to yourself - you deserve - someone who is more tuned into the Hops "Channel". Someone who wants to take care of you, and make happy times... as much as they want that for themselves, from you.
Brave Hops. There's a quote attributed to John Wayne I always liked: "Courage is being scared, and doing it anyway". The part I think that lies beneath that... is "because it's the right thing to do". In this case, taking a chance on a "maybe" relationship was the right thing to do for you. Still don't know how it's going to turn out either... everyone has bumps like this that have to be negotiated. This could be one of those bumps.
I have such cold feet about even TALKING to some guy online... because I'm such a blabbermouth about myself mostly, and that can be dangerous... that I'm actually denying myself opportunities to just kinda get to know people. I think the Viking went to the Bahamas or something to avoid looking like such a chicken. LOL.
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Hops:
I'm not ringing alarm bells over a conversation you had with B. You accept and admire him as a human being. You have a problem with some behaviors, and will address them like you have in the past.
I think the key is to not pass judgement on him, but rather let him jlkniw how you're affected. If he cares enough, he'll adjust and alter course. If he doesn't, he'll likely make that known too.
Remember the 3 As.....
Assess
Accept
Act
You're both doing that, and no matter what happens.... it's OK.
Lighter
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Thank you, Lighter.
I will try to make AAA my goal, when we talk again.
I'm sure he senses it was serious for me, because I expressed
that I'd rather not talk again for a week. But the truth is I wanted
to take time to recover from being so upset (including angry) before
we talk.
You're right. Assess, accept, act on it. This really is golden advice.
And much appreciated.
love
Hops
-
And ((((((((((Amber))))))))))))))....
I think it is a Very Good Sign when a baby chicken-Viking announces her presence.
Without her peeps, all the grown-Viking braying and boasting and besieging would be irrelevant.
We all house an inner baby chick.
She is worthy. She is the real marvel. Without her no Viking ever hatches.
She is the miracle of it all. And that's in her vulnerability.
Even because of it.
love
Hops
PS- I have been drinking bourbon, passing this remarkable no-B evening. It's actually been pretty awesome. Talked to a few friends. Went to a publishing workshop today and though that wasn't very helpful (I knew most of it since I was in publishing) I made a friend. This woman just chatted and we went for a salad and she knew a man who'd taught at my college, and he's one of her closest friends, and suddenly I remembered that he was the most amazing professor I'd ever had and recalled for her a time when he and I walked across the campus together, both in tears because of the material we were covering in an intensive he taught on Native Americans. She brought back an extraordinary memory that really had an impact on my life, in how I think of humanity. And she is emailing him tonight that she met me, and sharing my memory with him! (He wasn't that much older than his students as a young professor.) What an unexpected gift this was today. xxoo
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Well, duh..... Hops...
the bourbon is flowing here as well. Baby chicken Viking - LOL - LOL -LOL. Yeah you pegged it.
I've been a little more "bold" online with the tentative suitors. Flirting a little. Scared to death if anyone responds. I'll go run & hide.
And tears running the whole time... I so miss Mike. No he wasn't "perfect"... he was human just like me... laughing, crying all at the same time. And just breathing.
After all this time, we need to talk to each other -like over the phone. I don't know what I'd do without my Hopsie. (Having a bit of a moment here tonight...)
-
Off to see my T and the timing is good, as B returns today sometime.
I've emailed him asking if he'd like to catch up on Sat. or Sunday evening.
Hope so.
If he avoids or ghosts I'll have his answer.
I'm still mulling mine, but the plan is, to talk honestly. All the anger/upset is gone now, thankfully, so I'll be able to just tell him what I experienced when he did what he did, and see what he has to say.
I'm kind of in a neutral mood where I'm disposed to be curious, pay attention, and accept what is in calm. I think in some ways I've felt relief at his absence the past week, and have focused within again, thinking about my own life.
Just acquired a new old customer, who'll not just replace but add a couple hours to what I lost when Nlady stepped off my calendar. Ngent struggles on but I'm doing more hours for him too. All that's just reminded me that I can keep working a few years and saving every bit I can.
I'd let the house go to POT this week, caught up in the internal labor of trying to assess (the first A is the hardest, Lighter!). Literally a week's worth of dishes piled up in the kitchen. Laundry got done but not put away. This morning I woke at 6:00 and got the kitchen all cleared up and am feeling focused and glad about the day ahead.
Yesterday was a marathon for the oldies and I felt good-tired at the end of the day.
Will report more later...just wanted to say Good Morning, Amazons!
love
Hops
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So glad you see your T before speaking with B.
You sound really good, Hops.
Let us know how the rest of your day goes.
::sending energy for the week's worth of dishes marathon to come::..
Lighter
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Thank you, (((Lighter))) and everyone.
I'm heading out in 5 minutes to his house, we'll go to dinner.
Tonight is the time to Have The Talk. About The Tone. And how it felt to be to be talked to like a subordinate, and have him abruptly change a plan that affected me quite a lot, and inform me of it the way an executive would update an employee. Not an intimate or equal or respected partner.
My understanding (I'm so grateful he was away for a week so I could THINK) is that he has spent his entire 70 years in various situations that were about"
Power
Rank
Winning
Competing
Authority
And he's bringing that mindset (unconsciously) into his relationship to woman. Wife. Girlfriend.
And this girlfriend is going to share her insight. And leave if he's not able or not willing to step right up to this new information about himself.
I am confident that I've perceived this accurately. And I'm going to tell him what I see compassionately.
And then....wait. Just listen. See what it's all about for him. And then, I'll know whether we continue.
Big night! Just wanted to tell my Amazons before I go out and climb in the car and head out.
Will fill y'all in later.
love youse,
Hops
-
:: sending calm peace of mind for any conversation to come::..
Light
-
Oh that you'll see with the eyes of the universe Hops... all you need to see.
-
Well I dunno how exactly, but B passed the test. I really was ready to let him go if he didn't hear me. But he did. He listened intently. I talked out ALL of how I felt about The Tone and all the rest, and he just listened.
He didn't intend to come across as horrid executive, he'd just had a hard time booking his flight right before calling me. (He was oblivious to how it sounded.) He too felt upset that I didn't obey his request to come out and resolve everything before he left, but that clued him that I was pretty seriously upset. And he apologized.
He was SO worried and so vulnerable and sweet that I just kind of caved.
We're okay. This could/probably will happen again but if it does, I'll let him know. I won't let The Tone become a thing. But I'm less freaked out that it happened.
He said something odd. He's not sure I see the relationship the way he does, and truthfully, to him I am an "imposing" personality. And all of a sudden I realized that he's probably more scared of me than I'm scared of him. (I'm so freaking verbally fast that he barely keeps pace but he looks at me like I'm the North Star and talks about how beautiful I am. I tell him he just wants to get in my pants and he laughs. He said he was "ecstatic" that we were okay again. I realized he really meant it. Then I relaxed more and realized it's just...stuff. He really is very deeply invested in our relationship. (And he plans to go to the class with me again.)
I think we can work through it. I know the talk went really well, we had a nice meal and I got to listen to more stories about his life and work, and we were really affectionate with each other. WEIRD relationship since I think we're from different planets, but for now, we're still okay.
He was so nervous before I came I think he'd had a bourbon or two and he NEVER does that. So his vulnerability truly affected me and I didn't feel so "imposing" about everything.
Hmmm. Who the hell knows. It is nice to be wanted. And my dog adores him.
Hops still dunno but I can say I feel way better.
Thank you, Amazons. You'll never know just how much you've done for me. Here's a 67 y/o acting like a terrified teenager and y'all just help me re-ground. I know whether I'm announcing something big or a new tough chapter, you'll be here.
Lots of love,
Hops
-
Hopsie, I honestly have to say that I am happy with a capital H :)
I could see exactly where you were coming from with regards to 'The Tone' and agreed entirely that yes, it's not a good sound and it quite clearly set off a huge alarm bell for you instead of the smaller 'I can deal with this' alarms that had gone previously. But I really am truly delighted that B has responded the way that he has. The fact that he listens is so valuable, and the fact that you are strong enough (and courageous enough) to be so honest even though you felt it would probably mean this was the last time you see him suggests to me a really strong foundation. I'm so excited!
I think it's so great that he's human, and struggles a bit, and doesn't always feel like he knows what he's doing and that you do two - just two normal people willing to put the time and effort in to grow something that's fun and, most importantly, full of mutual respect. I'm so glad that he adores you, so deserve that so much and I'm really truly happy that this enormous bump has been aired, cleared and minded. I think being able to deal with the hiccups is what makes a relationship work and I think you both just proved you can do that :) I'm really happy for you, Hopsie :) xx
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Hops:
You seem to be working out a relationship recipe that has value for you and B.
I'm sorry you were knocked so far off balance, and for so long, but that's where serious work and understanding take place, IME.
As long as he's not conning you....as long as you're being heard.....as long as he's speaking his truth.....there is hope for B and Hops together.
You don't have to always agree, but there needs to be a baseline of honorable conduct, and mutual care which won't ever be exactly equal, btw. People who can be kind, even when they don't get their way or hear what they'd like, indicates they care as much about you as they care about themselves. That's pretty important in a relationship, esp for those if us with allergies to interpersonal terrorists, and conflict in general, I suppose.
I'm proud of you for forging ahead bravely with B, esp when you were uncertain how the conversation would go. It's just a discussion, and remaining curious, not tied to outcome, helps.
Brava, Hops. B is lucky to have a quick, bright, very interesting woman, with her own mind, in his life. It appears he's aware of this truth too.
This is the difficult stuff that grows sturdy relationships, IME. You and B seem to be doing the work.
Lighter
-
This is good news Hops. NOW, will you relax some? LOL. Enjoy yourself without looking at things that are said and go on, with such a microscope? Yeah, you still will want to follow your intuition about things; listen to your feelings... but it sounds to me like you can start lowering the drawbridge a little more. And trust that it's going to be OK; that you two can work and talk things out.
-
Well, sometimes it's anxiety, sometimes it's spidey sense, and sometimes it's just neurosis.
We really have gotten to a better place. There have been moments, however, that needed dealing with. Like the incident in the car when he expressed frustration with physical aggression. Nothing dire, but I know what I felt and wasn't making it up. I have zero expectation he'll ever try that again, but the truth is I was sad to discover the capacity. Then again, if that never resurfaces, we're good. And his recent response did make me feel that something in him truly values me and doesn't want to blow it.
Meanwhile, we ARE in a happy place right now and I do plan to enjoy it as long as it lasts. I'm taking him to my church's potluck thing this week -- he surprised me by being quite eager to go. And I'm looking forward to it.
One challenge I have is sorting out in reality, what is a meaningful fear and what's just old stuff retriggered. My second husband did a Jekyll-Hyde thing on our wedding night that left me shattered. I avoid thinking about it and tell myself I'm over it, but knowing how serious B and I could become, I wonder if that's been playing beneath the surface of my mind. If it has, I will work with my T to become confident that I can judge a different man in a different time without that distortion. A close friend congratulated me for hanging in with Bob, and she said, "I know your flight instinct is strong." That was perceptive; I'd never thought of it that way. Hmm.
Lighter's three As...I'm not too concerned about Accept and Act, as I trust I could do those. But the first A, Assess...is the stage I'm still in. I want to do it with deep awareness. I guess more fun and affection and time will make the difference. Right now, that seems like a possibility.
I know I sound like Eeyore but it does feel good. I just don't know whether I'll ever feel full emotional abandon in love again. But even if I always hold my own center with care, I think I could be happy.
love
Hops
-
Well, sometimes it's anxiety, sometimes it's spidey sense, and sometimes it's just neurosis.
We really have gotten to a better place. There have been moments, however, that needed dealing with. Like the incident in the car when he expressed frustration with physical aggression. Nothing dire, but I know what I felt and wasn't making it up. I have zero expectation he'll ever try that again, but the truth is I was sad to discover the capacity. Then again, if that never resurfaces, we're good. And his recent response did make me feel that something in him truly values me and doesn't want to blow it.
Meanwhile, we ARE in a happy place right now and I do plan to enjoy it as long as it lasts. I'm taking him to my church's potluck thing this week -- he surprised me by being quite eager to go. And I'm looking forward to it.
One challenge I have is sorting out in reality, what is a meaningful fear and what's just old stuff retriggered. My second husband did a Jekyll-Hyde thing on our wedding night that left me shattered. I avoid thinking about it and tell myself I'm over it, but knowing how serious B and I could become, I wonder if that's been playing beneath the surface of my mind. If it has, I will work with my T to become confident that I can judge a different man in a different time without that distortion. A close friend congratulated me for hanging in with Bob, and she said, "I know your flight instinct is strong." That was perceptive; I'd never thought of it that way. Hmm.
Lighter's three As...I'm not too concerned about Accept and Act, as I trust I could do those. But the first A, Assess...is the stage I'm still in. I want to do it with deep awareness. I guess more fun and affection and time will make the difference. Right now, that seems like a possibility.
I know I sound like Eeyore but it does feel good. I just don't know whether I'll ever feel full emotional abandon in love again. But even if I always hold my own center with care, I think I could be happy.
love
Hops
Hopsie, I think the thing to keep in mind is that it's okay not to feel full emotional abandon. If you need to keep a little bit back, then do. It isn't a bad thing, or wrong, it's just how it is and who you are, which is because of things that have happened in the past. I find I react to almost everything a man does, because over the years almost every kind of thing that someone can do has been done. I think that when we have that damaged part of ourselves it makes sense to take care of it. If you had a problematic ankle that caused pain if you walked too far you'd take care to limit your walking, to avoid the pain. I don't think our hearts are any different. You're enjoying the good stuff, you're aware that things aren't perfect (but are dealing with them perfectly, in my opinion).
I think a bad wedding night experience would play on your mind if you have the possibility of a wedding night happening at some point in the future. Perfectly normal. Your T will help you through, so will we - in time you might even feel up to telling B about it so he knows it wasn't good before. You don't have to weather every storm without a mark showing. It's alright to have a few dents :) xx
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One of the things I see in profiles all the time online, is "no baggage" as a requirement.
C'mon... no one gets to our age, without some kind of "baggage". I can understand the "no drama" requirement - but our own emotions are quite capable of inventing that drama; I know mine do.
So, I've got things that trigger me too and that flight response. And one of the things that triggers my flight response is any inkling of that emotional abandon. That's the danger zone, where I'm seeing things only the way I HOPE they're going to be; and not as they are.
So, Hops... the same thing happens with fear too. Every single time you've held up your figurative hand, and clearly stated your feelings... B has stopped; apologized; and corrected his behavior to be able to continue being with you and making you comfortable around him. He hasn't steamrolled you or taken advantage of your attraction to him. That's what IS. So far. And that's what I'm basing my suggestion that he's earned a little bit of trust from you (in the form of you relaxing some) on. (ooooo dangling participle time)
Yes, we do have to face those old triggers, and reduce their power over of us another notch if we can. Sometimes that requires actual experience with a new partner - that is very different from the past. And it might just take you - me - and others a little more time to get there than people who haven't experienced that.
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Wow. These insights are so extremely helpful. I mean REALLY, how does one explain the value of this kind of close observation and well expressed insight, from people who've been reading your internal monologues for literally years? Yegoshes. If every person everywhere had a claque of Amazons like you...oh this world would be better.
Tupp, thanks for pointing out there's nothing wrong in protecting a bruise. That it's even right. Of course. Duh. Healing one's bruises doesn't involve poking or pounding them.
Amber, what you said about fear was really an illumination of something for me. What IS, instead of what's FEARED. I really do need to try to keep my focus on what is. What's revealing, what's happening (and not happening). His real listening, more than my incessant filtering of invisibles, is a really really good thing that should be neutralizing a lot of my stuff. But I have to help.
I do feel calmer now. One little development during/after the Big Talk was teasing. We hadn't done much. And suddenly there was warm laughter and a silly flirty banter we hadn't fallen into before. (Hard to flirt when one is scared. And from the get-go we'd both been very clear how serious our intentions were, what we were looking for--so that got in the way of relaxing too.) The light banter tells me my threat level got lowered.
Evidence: We're going to visit old friends of his and though I'll have my own bed, I agreed to share a space with him where I walk through his sleep space to get to the bathroom! IOW, it's virtually a shared room....
How 'bout that.
Hops
-
How bout that?!?!
It's wonderful, Hops!
You've somehow bumped and scuttled to relative safety. It wasn't easy, or comfortable to move through areas of feeling exposed and unsafe. You and B seem to be doing the work, building shelter and safety between you.
Remember, B can't read minds. Don't let things build up. If you feel discomfort, be proactive. It's not a big deal to state your needs, and expect compliance. B wants to please you.
Have fun being playful.... that's the most fun.
😋Lighter
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"Bumped and scuttled" is a brilliant phrase.
You've delighted not just Heist Hops, but poet Hops, this morning!
Thanks, (((Lighter)))--
hugs
Hops
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Hopsie, what occurs to me as I read through your stuff is that B, with his corporate, conservative, solution focused background (that seems to be what he was born into and what he's continued with throughout life) might be utterly delighted to have met this liberal minded, free speaking, deep thinking, emotionally charged woman with such a wealth of life experience and a heart like an ocean. I keep imagining that he's utterly thrilled to have someone so different in his life and I think he's probably enjoying every minute of this completely new experience :) I think it all sounds smiley and I'm looking forward to reading more updates :) xx
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Hey Hops - check your weather. We're under a storm warning that involves wind gusts 50-60 mph. As much rain as we've both gotten - trees fall over. I lost 3-4 last march in a storm no one predicted.
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Thanks Amber...yup, wind.
Not much to do except duck, unfortunately. (And pray for my big tree!)
Tupp thank you. I am thinking it's possible too.
But gotta say, B's level of anxiety and discomfort with anything new or that he's not in control of is beginning to sink in. We're going to a big city I used to live in for a night and he kept talking about his apprehensions and whether he could still "take someone" if we're attacked. I kept thinking, my god man, we'll use common sense about where we walk and bring a friendly attitude.
I realize how isolating it is, in a way, to feel you must "look rich" or hold yourself apart from others. I've waded into poor urban neighborhoods when I taught there, ditto Appalachia, ditto other countries, etc. I've never been reckless about where I walk but likewise have never led with paranoid feelings about whole cities.
I wouldn't take him to the scariest areas I used to work in (in his fancy car) but likewise, I don't want to FOCUS on stranger-danger all the time. I'm beginning to catch on that he's genuinely afraid of new experiences. I wonder if the OCD has anything to do with it?
Just rambling....
xxoo
Hops
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Hops, I think it does have some to do with the OCD. Remember my reluctance to drive myself to Baltimore (despite having done so on a regular basis years & years ago)? Some of it is simply being in an area I don't know well at all or has changed over the years - and the sensory overload of that can drive an OCD person to exhaustion, and that's before you add a crowd of people into the mix.
But some of it is also believing the distortions of just how bad things are, delivered by our "not-so-friendly" media. You have no real experience to compare it to -- until you're there. That's definitely anxiety-inducing for me. The option to not believe the media, can be considered fool-hardy if it is dangerous (or more dangerous than it used to be)... and that "unknown" of actually seeing for yourself is something a person just has to accept whenever one does or goes somewhere new.
You will have to tell B, that the shoe is on the other foot. He's going to have to rely on your experience and trust your ability to "protect" him... so HE can relax for a change! LOL.
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B is outside his comfort zone. He doesn't want to appear weak in front of you. He doesn't want anyone hurt..... reasonable to think about in unfamiliar territory, imo.
Good luck on the trip, and have a great time Hops.
Lighter
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Thanks Amber...yup, wind.
Not much to do except duck, unfortunately. (And pray for my big tree!)
Tupp thank you. I am thinking it's possible too.
But gotta say, B's level of anxiety and discomfort with anything new or that he's not in control of is beginning to sink in. We're going to a big city I used to live in for a night and he kept talking about his apprehensions and whether he could still "take someone" if we're attacked. I kept thinking, my god man, we'll use common sense about where we walk and bring a friendly attitude.
I realize how isolating it is, in a way, to feel you must "look rich" or hold yourself apart from others. I've waded into poor urban neighborhoods when I taught there, ditto Appalachia, ditto other countries, etc. I've never been reckless about where I walk but likewise have never led with paranoid feelings about whole cities.
I wouldn't take him to the scariest areas I used to work in (in his fancy car) but likewise, I don't want to FOCUS on stranger-danger all the time. I'm beginning to catch on that he's genuinely afraid of new experiences. I wonder if the OCD has anything to do with it?
Just rambling....
xxoo
Hops
I think part of that's just 'bloke' stuff, Hopsie, like refusing to ask for directions :) However much social conditioning has gone on over the years I still think that part of male DNA is to protect - I even see it in my son (with regard to me) and I think it's just inbuilt. I don't imagine B has known many women like you, with your sort of background and range of experiences. He might be so used to having to take control that he's not comfortable not doing it. I expect it will ease off over time :) I think it's quite sweet that a guy in his 70s is getting ready to put his fists up to defend his lady :) Even though I know you don't need defending :) xx
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Hops, I think it does have some to do with the OCD. Remember my reluctance to drive myself to Baltimore (despite having done so on a regular basis years & years ago)? Some of it is simply being in an area I don't know well at all or has changed over the years - and the sensory overload of that can drive an OCD person to exhaustion, and that's before you add a crowd of people into the mix.
But some of it is also believing the distortions of just how bad things are, delivered by our "not-so-friendly" media. You have no real experience to compare it to -- until you're there. That's definitely anxiety-inducing for me. The option to not believe the media, can be considered fool-hardy if it is dangerous (or more dangerous than it used to be)... and that "unknown" of actually seeing for yourself is something a person just has to accept whenever one does or goes somewhere new.
You will have to tell B, that the shoe is on the other foot. He's going to have to rely on your experience and trust your ability to "protect" him... so HE can relax for a change! LOL.
Definitely a lot to do with the media, I think, our papers make it sound like nowhere's safe. There is crime, of course there is, but random assaults and attacks are still far less common than fatal car crashes but no-one thinks twice about getting in a car. And Skep, I don't feel relaxed going to new places - like you I find having to think about lots of things at the same time quite tiring. There was a time when I didn't mind getting lost but now I find it exhausting :) xx
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Yeah, it's the paranoia and negative assumptions about huge swaths of people.
I suppose I should be touched by the macho fantasies but in fact I'm saddened. It just seems like an isolating kind of fear that prevents him from enjoying exploration and enjoying encountering new people. He carries that generally.
I'm beginning to think B and I won't enjoy much travel together. Our one overnight was to a tiny mountain town but the idea of cities seems to scare him a lot. He's mentioned it repeatedly. Like, "I'm not interested in London..." etc.
But I'm still looking forward to going and like it or not, B is going to meet 3 amazing other people I've known for many years. Then we'll go off to the shore to meet friends of his, which'll also be good, as I never have before....
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Yeah, it's the paranoia and negative assumptions about huge swaths of people.
I suppose I should be touched by the macho fantasies but in fact I'm saddened. It just seems like an isolating kind of fear that prevents him from enjoying exploration and enjoying encountering new people. He carries that generally.
I'm beginning to think B and I won't enjoy much travel together. Our one overnight was to a tiny mountain town but the idea of cities seems to scare him a lot. He's mentioned it repeatedly. Like, "I'm not interested in London..." etc.
But I'm still looking forward to going and like it or not, B is going to meet 3 amazing other people I've known for many years. Then we'll go off to the shore to meet friends of his, which'll also be good, as I never have before....
Your approach might rub off on him a bit, Hopsie. If you ever plan a trip to London you can tell B you have a friend in the UK who will meet you and give you both a guided tour :) It can get very crowded during peak holiday times, especially around 'the sights', but there are so many little places to visit and you can walk for miles. The scariest thing is how much some places will charge you for a cup of coffee :) xx
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Oh that would be lovely, Tupp!
I lived in London for 6 months in the seventies. (On Jacksons Lane, between Archway and Highgate.) We'd grocery shop and go to Indian restaurants on Archway and I'd wander and hang out on Hampstead Heath and in the famous cemetery in Highgate with my fancy loaned camera. And now and then splurge on a tea to toast Dick Whittington.
I have a couple family friends in the U.K. but haven't seen them for ages. And one in Monmouth, Wales, which is very beautiful.
I think B and I will do fine once we get rolling. And his friends live in a quiet shore community so that'll give him a chance to recover from Da City.
:lol:
Hops
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Facing differences a little more clearly. Senses of humor (different planets) and sense of irony (me got, him not).
1) B sent me another sexist internet joke. It was juvenile, belittling, sexist and ugly. Plus, deeply dumb. He prefaced it with: "Prepare. This may make you laugh out loud." Similarly, when he sent me the raft of sexist/racist/belittling/stereotyping joke images some while back, he introduced it with, "These will delight and amuse you."
2) The other night I showed him the film Concussion, which had a huge impact on me. Long story short, it is the true story of the Nigeria-born pathologist who discovered CTE, the brain damage that affects many football players and leads to enormous suffering (death, suicide, early dementia) and which begins with head impacts in Pee Wee football. My response to the story was to know that I could never watch a sport that celebrates "good hits" over the brains that are hit. Same reason I deeply loathe all sports that involve people hitting each other in the face and head (same CTE).
B enjoyed the movie (it featured a lot of famous players and clips from games). He said, "really good film." The next morning he said when he got home, he watched some boxing.
I
nearly
give
up
....it's maybe a little drip drip drippy, but I do think at some point the water fills the cup on one side and the balance just swings.
I don't feel any panic, just a growing sense that I'm fooling myself. He's been dear and sweet to me but also offputting at times. And I'm coming to think that his desperation for a partner has intersected with my own fears of old age, and that this is maybe NOT a good recipe for a lifetime.
I'm sure I could explain his tastes in various ways. But I wonder if I should instead just be honest about their impact on me, inside, where my values and sense of hope live.
I'm starting to wonder if an ACTUAL shared life with him could turn into misery.
???
love
Hops
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Well Hopsie, I think on the one hand keep in mind 'the switch' - it was in that Judith Sill's book you recommended to me and it was about one partner pulling back and going off the other when it gets to the point of changing from dating to relationship. So maybe it's cold feet because of that. But equally - little annoying things can build up to a situation that is unbearable. It is hard; a perfect match is non existent (in my cynical world, at least) but it does have to be a match that means you can manage each other's annoying habits without too much bother. The sexist jokes after you've been very clear about them are a bit of a 'doh' moment. And the watching boxing after seeing a film about the impact of brain injuries, yep, something was missed there!
I don't know. Can you hang on in there and see how you feel in a few weeks? Do you need to take a little break and see how you feel if you don't see him for a couple of weeks?
For what it's worth, I don't think you're fooling yourself. You've been astonishingly open and honest about the whole process from the beginning and you've more than put in the time and effort to know that you've put in enough time and effort. I'm still hoping that it works out okay. But maybe a bit more time will give you a bit more perspective (either way!)? xx
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Well Hops, I never expected this kind of thing to stop bothering you and wondered the result, if he didn't try to accommodate you. I wonder IF there is middle ground - that while not perfect, for either of you - would "work" out of mutual respect for the other's values.
If it is possible, then you'll both want to contribute some definitions - boundaries - about what's OK and what's not. If that is too contractual to have a "relaxed" relationship... well, then perhaps the differences are too far apart to meet in the middle w/o both of you giving up too much of yourselves.
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Hi Hops:
I believe B sends you those stupid chain e mails with the same title someone else perhaps sent him? DOES he think you'll be delighted.... really?
If so, what does that mean? I forget, but did you ask him to take your off his offensive joke mailing list? That should remind him you aren't interested, and have a problem with them, in fact.
About the head injury stuff.... he's a guy who likes high impact American sports. There are lots of them out there. He'll likely never be someone who gives up his long time love of them. He'll never advocate for them to be abolished. He's not that guy.
What he is is..... a guy who likes or loves you very much, and wants you to BE that person in his life, despite his feelings about it. He's OK with your views, or so it seems.
He doesn't have to be like you, hold your views or work alongside you, at least not at this time in our lives, IME... you aren't raising children together.
You're support, and he's support. You're companions. You're there for each other, in your own ways, and maybe for the rest of your lives. Maybe for a shorter while.
I think you're thinking about this too hard. You don't have to marry the guy this month. You don't have to do anything, and doesn't realizing that take some pressure off? There should be zero pressure right now, IMO. This should be fun. This should be a curious time with you paying attention.... noticing what comes up.
I think you're doing that very well, btw. It's just.....
you don't have to figure out what it means yet, IMO.
You're still gathering information, (and having fun I hope.)
Play with asserting yourself, making your views known, discussing important things with him without much editing yourself.
Pay attention to how you feel, how he responds, what comes of it... what changes, if anything.
You may be right.... he may not be the one.
Then again, he might be, even though he's different in so man ways. I wonder if he could get on board with something you really care about... if that would make a difference for you. Just one thing.
In the meantime... what's right about him and the relationship? What's good?
Lighter
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Thanks, Tupp.
I've actually wondered whether there's something cognitively wrong, too, which would not be his fault nor anything I'd ever for a second blame him for if it's so. But I've noticed some blankness, inability to find words, and one odd moment when we were on our cell phones, he had to go fetch something, and he comes back and picks up his house phone and I hear him talking into it...hello hello? He didn't remember which phone he was on. I'm not judging this but it's scary, as his Dad had Alzheimer's. Saintly or Cinderella-y as I may be (or not) I know I could not take that on intentionally. Would care-give of course if we were married but would not take that on if I could see it coming prior to that. What's going on with the 93 y/o I work for is very draining. I'm sad for him but his nastiness escalates along with his physical troubles (it reminds me of my decade with Nmom). So I'm pretty alert to worrisome signs with B.
There's also maybe some passive-aggressive stuff going on that I don't understand. Maybe he's going through the switch himself, as he's been more withdrawn lately. I asked him if he'd ever been formally diagnosed with anxiety or depression and he said he's on an SSRI and OCD "had been mentioned." He seems to be going through a big mood dip. So maybe we're on the same page about not being right for each other. We'll see.
He's also talked about future housing again and I guess that's bothering me too. Maybe I should just stay in my little house which I love... dunno. I'm sure my perspective's a little off this week also because my church is going through a huge controversy with people leaving and that's depressing me. (Only family and it's in jeopardy.)
I'm a humorless prude maybe, but the joke stuff does disturb me. Lighter, you asked if he was writing those intros about how I'd be laughing out loud, etc. He wrote those personally to me. I'm not on a group email, he's taken the trouble to select one and forward it to me separately. I believe he genuinely does find ugly stuff funny because he disregards (or misses) the sexist stereotyping and focuses on the juvenile punchline. Whereas I'm so grossed out by the racist or sexist stereotype that whatever's "clever" about the punchline is meaningless to me, even though I get that it's supposedly funny.
I guess it just feels so weird that he doesn't understand that about me. I sense him struggle to connect with me intellectually. He's very smart in the engineer way but perhaps just not able to get what I think about, even when I've told him what I think about. His joke sending is clearly a form of reaching out. I think he just doesn't know what to say a lot, so our conversations can be extremely labored. If my energy's up I'm really chatty and he seems to enjoy that a lot, but he really has very little to say. If I say something about a tough thing at work or at church or in a friend's life, he instantly advises. Every single time. And his advice is usually superficial and labored and though it's a classic "man wants to fix things" I do feel irritated. It's just not much fun talking to him these days. The connection is very loose, unfortunately.
And maybe he's struggling with depression plus possibly signs of dementia. I feel badly for him but am worried that it's more than I can deal with.
As to the boxing thing, you're right, Lighter. He's not that guy. Funny, but boxing and wrestling were huge turnoffs about my first husband and I never got past his lack of empathy for the humans in the ring. It's similar to B "loaning back" his designer dog for breeding. To many people that's a perfectly fine practice since the dog's experience just isn't relevant. Or, the notion of having empathy for an animal (livestock) isn't a big deal. I understand. It's just the kind of difference between us that does matter.
Houses, golf, travel preferences don't matter much. Even the food obsessions (and the woman should do it) don't matter that much. But the sexism/racism blankness -- not seeing it or not caring about it, the difference is moot -- and the tolerance for violence and others' pain, do matter.
He got really agitated on the phone one morning and told me he was "upset" about a call we'd had (he caught me with my hot dinner waiting so I was fairly direct about needing to be quick) and he'd gone on and on about his wife's recipe collection and could we go through it together and pick out recipes to make and what could we do because I don't eat meat...and he was obsessed with the subject. I've told him over and over I don't want to make cooking a big focus because I just don't want to spend a lot of time planning and talking days ahead and generally about what we'll eat days from now. That was his wife's biggest role in his life it seems and he can't adapt to the change without real emotional distress. It seems like a deep, deep issue for him and though I sympathize I do not want to be responsible for comforting him in this way. It's not how I express myself, it's just a chore. A big one I'm not relaxed about myself. I want healthful, simple, nutritious. I don't have enough time to write my novel or garden and I still work. He's retired but spends hours and hours poring over papers in his office (with an assistant twice a week). I'm not retired, so if food's that critical then...he can do food. Or more of food.
I just may not want this as badly as I thought. Or, it may be that we have so very very little in common that now that we're in month #4, other things are getting in the way. The chemistry is failing for me too.
It's not B's fault. I'm picking away at him above...I do see it. I think what that's all about is either me freaking out over future fears of being trapped with him in a house while he deteriorates and it's caregiving 2.0 without shared joys, and me facing some real incompatibilities I've tried to gloss over or ski around prior to this point.
We were both so lonely when we met that I think we've had some real momentum toward dismissing or downplaying some really big differences. People always say partnerships are happier when two people have a lot in common. B and I have very very little in common, except the desire not to be alone....
Maybe this is just a switch moment as you point out, Tupp. I'll try to just ride this "flight urge" through again, and see if we weather it.
Or Amber, your last point might be the truth I'm avoiding. The differences ARE too big for long-term happiness.
If I get to a point of realizing I just don't want to risk it all with him, I won't be sorry for a moment that we tried. It's been overall a good experience, truly.
Grumpy insomniac here...bear with me.
Love
Hops
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Hopsie, it might even be that in the grand scheme of things you and B are each other's stepping stone to the next person. Sometimes that happens, you meet someone, get to know them, get a clearer idea of what you do and don't want and then meet someone more like that the next time along.
In all honesty I would also be very alert to signs of health problem in people - I think when you've done so much caring, as you have, and have seen how soul destroying and isolating it can be, it can make you more finely tuned to it and there's nothing in the world wrong with not wanting to become someone else's nurse (married or not). And I don't think you're a humourless prude; personally I have never understood why there are men who think women would find sexist jokes funny and I hate white people assuming I'll find their racist jokes funny because I'm white really offensive (and I laugh very easily at all sorts of things - even farting :) ).
It's not a bad thing if this turns out not to be your thing, Hops. You might feel differently in a few weeks and be keen on the idea again. You might decide it's definitely a no and stop seeing him. You might find you both feel a relationship isn't on the cards but the odd dinner date or phone chat might be. I don't think you need to give yourself a hard time. It will be what it is. Maybe just see how things go for a while. Maybe you need a couple of weeks of not seeing him to gain a bit of perspective. But you know what, I have absolute faith that you will figure out what you're doing and do what's right for you - and that you'll do it calmly, graciously and in a way that always leaves a door open, whichever way you end up going. You're doing an amazing job :) xx
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Thank you, Tupp. That was very comforting.
I don't know what got into me in the middle of the night but, wow.
I hope I ride it through and realize that a whole bunch of forces are playing on me right now...Ngent's serious deterioration (he's been in a pain crisis, I've had to hire an agency to fill in extra time but he still calls me three times on my day off and he's not yet able to move to assisted living, so most of the responsibility falls on me). And the church stuff has rattled my world.
But I feel as though I'm thinking unfairly. I wish I could adopt the lighter (no pun intended, Lighter! :lol:) more playful attitude toward this.
Gonna work on that. Hops dunno.
Thank you for listening to all of this...
xo
Hops
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Hops dear... I agree with Lighter that you're putting too much pressure on yourself. But you're clearly not having fun... because "possibilities" or not... his insensitivity to your strong dislikes irritates the crap out of you. YOU'RE ALLOWED TO LET IT IRRITATE YOU and even generate the questioning about the potential "future".
BTW, something else is coming up from what you wrote. About "connection"... and how that induces "chemistry". I don't know where I'm going with that right now... and have to put my "doing" shoes on again... but one thing I know off the top of my head, is that if there isn't enough "connection" between you, it's much harder to tolerate those differences between people. Like Mike's "collecting" gene... even though it was a constant low-level irritant that sometimes erupted into "end of the world divorce matches" (LOL)... I did learn to tolerate it BECAUSE I was sure enough of our connection to know he really couldn't help it. It was "who" he was. So I accepted it - no matter how much it made me crazy. (And I'm kinda exploring that connection thing with the Viking... we pleasant enough with each other... but the connection seems entirely in my own mind - and still just "potential". Dunno if I'm patient enough to hang around and see if one develops.)
Also, am "rehersing" for girls weekend... Holly sounds close to making some decisions and apart from connection, one of the things she's struggling with... is that Matt gets to make the "rules", what she wants doesn't seem important enough for him to give her, and she's feeling really badly about even wanting/needing them... as if she's too demanding, needy or selfish. Y'all know how I would "read" that... given my extensive experience with passive-aggressiveness. She's been trying to drag Matt into being a responsible adult - and living that way. He'll be 40 this year and I agree with her assessment of how his "priorities" are ranked right now - both for himself, and them together. He's really fighting turning into an adult - and leans on her too much (and then gripes she's trying to control him) for the basics - like finances. I'm being way more assertive about my point of view, here... than I would be with her. I let her lead conversations like this and merely suggest some things here and there she might not be "seeing". Mostly I LISTEN for what she's really saying - and not hearing herself. She and I are navigating this pretty well - without me feeling as though I'm "interfering" or "influencing"... and she defends her boundaries with me, without hesitation or compunction. LOL. She knows our relationship is broad enough and deep enough to sustain those slings/arrows/giant rocks... and keep right on going.
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Thank you, Tupp. That was very comforting.
I don't know what got into me in the middle of the night but, wow.
I hope I ride it through and realize that a whole bunch of forces are playing on me right now...Ngent's serious deterioration (he's been in a pain crisis, I've had to hire an agency to fill in extra time but he still calls me three times on my day off and he's not yet able to move to assisted living, so most of the responsibility falls on me). And the church stuff has rattled my world.
But I feel as though I'm thinking unfairly. I wish I could adopt the lighter (no pun intended, Lighter! :lol:) more playful attitude toward this.
Gonna work on that. Hops dunno.
Thank you for listening to all of this...
xo
Hops
It's not unfair of you to find some of his habits irritating or his jokes offensive, Hops, it's open and realistic. And it's definitely not unfair to be wondering about you'll be a nurse for longer than you'll be a new bride. I think the thing is B can be a good man and have lots of good points but still just not be right for you. Doesn't mean anything bad about you or him, it just is. Or maybe it is just a settling in patch and once this bit settles it will be good but on a slightly deeper level. I think the thing with new relationships is that we all put on our best behaviour but none of us can keep it up indefinitely. So it does become more about whether someone's good enough is good enough for both. Maybe in a few weeks you'll feel it is good enough for both of you, maybe you'll feel it isn't. But it's not unfair of you to feel what you feel and think what you think. That's what makes you you. There's nothing I've read that's made me think you're being OTT or unreasonable - quite the opposite, in fact. So no more giving yourself a hard time xx
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Hops:
A friend once told me we had to love our mate's negative traits as much as their lovely traits.
::Blowing huge raspberry on that::.
We don't HAVE to ANYTHING, IMO.
All that's needed is enough space, respect, and comfort.... whatever your poison happens to be, to get through, hopefully with more good memories than bad.
I'm of the opinion that caring for an old man is terrifying, btw. I don't want that either. I don't blame you at all, esp after caring for your mother for so many years.
I am curious though..... and you may have told me.... please forgive if so.....
what is B's plan for old age? I think you said he has insurance for his care? You wouldn't be expected to actually hands on care for him if he's lost in dimentia.... would you? I remember a friend barricading herself in her bedroom as her husband became more and more violent.... removing all the kitchen cabinet doors..... he'd been a doctor with his pilot's license, his own plane and a boat he captained. It didn't save his brain to BE that active, smart, capable. IT just made him more difficult to deal with as his illness progressed.
BTW, you're really honing in on
in your posts. Everything you write makes sense to me. Remember it's OK if this doesn't work out..... no matter what.... it's OK.
His putting pressure on you is perhaps jacking up anxiety levels. Don't let him DO that to you. Shut out that pressure... pretend it has nothing to do with you, and go about your very busy life. You have a life. You have friends. You have your church family, and B would have to come'round in many ways for you to be comfortable in the relationship to consider investing more in the relationship.... sounds as though it might be considerable less investment very soon.
About the food......
IF you didn't have to work any longer.....
IF you had more time, and got busy working on your novel, and gardening.... lovely splendid gardening just the way you like it..
would planning, talking, shopping and preparing meals be less of a chore?
Would it, could it, become a shared pleasure... maybe?
I sense I know the answer, but...... he sounds pretty busy. How much together time is he looking for? Maybe you guys would have a routine that didn't bug you as much as you're bugged now with all the pressure?
Just look at it from every angle, then trust yourself.
I trust you: )
Lighter
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Been awful quiet. Everyone seems really busy.
Appreciate, when you get a chance, an update on your B situation.
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Ahhh thanks for asking, Amber.
I'm just trying to roll with my discernment (which is boinging around like the ADD brain).
I'm getting back in touch with his core good intentions, and that helps. But still struggling with my own irritation at personality stuff, much of which he truly can't help. More than a test of who B is, I think I'm confronting a test of who I am.
I really spelled out for him the other day how MUCH I do not want to be in charge of keeping him emotionally comfortable. He has a tendency after every encounter, alone or with others, to give me a kind of "post-mortem power point takeaway executive summary" that just irritates me no end. (I really liked this part, and then when you hugged me then, and that kiss was especially nice, and the salad was fairly good, and it was nice talking to your neighbor, and on and on and on....) He just never says, I felt happy and close and had a really good time. I'm going to get the spreadsheet rundown and I really don't like it. I feel like I'm getting a report card! I REALLY feel that way. (And told him so and he said, bless him, "I'm just being a darn engineer." It's true and not his fault, and I feel like a jerk.)
Today, he wanted to tell me how much he enjoyed our time together last night. We went to my goofy neighbor's for wine and a garden tour (she's intense but fascinating). Then we ate simply here (the man puts BUTTER on his pizza crust!) and then watched some tube. We cuddled and necked. He literally moans with pent-up passion almost any time I kiss him halfway seriously. And though he means it in the best way...maybe because I'm .... I honestly don't know .... I feel pressured. So I pull back. It's like he can't relax about anything, and his frustration and intensity are off putting even though I'm positive he doesn't want me to withdraw. Couldn't be more positive!
Overall, I am definitely feeling love and affection for him. I'm just wading through the Swamp of Recoil based on personality stuff that's nobody's fault. Hops dunno, dunno, dunno.
It is truly nice having him in my life but I feel as though he's telling me, it's never enough. I wrote this email I never sent to him but it sums it up:
I care about you, B. Much more than that. But I do feel repeated subtle pressure to ensure that you feel okay, and I think in some ways I try to avoid time with you when what I really want is to feel relaxed and mellow about our times together. Sometimes in our conversations after an encounter -- more often after anything other than being alone together -- I feel as though you're explaining how it is my responsibility to make you feel emotionally safe, even in an fairly ordinary situation. Meeting people. Going somewhere unfamiliar. Etc. Your ongoing analyses of missing gestures or something inadequate in the occasion that resulted in you feeling unsatisfied -- more time together, more intimacy than occurred, more reassurances that we are emotionally connected without pause -- leave me feeling drained.
I know retreating to email is a bad idea because it's where I go to analyse and that's anti-intimacy. Today on the phone I pretty much described the "now here is your report card for the evening" thing and I think he understood it. I just think it's so hardwired that it's exactly who he is and how he functions and I worry that I'd be in an eternal state of dreading the next "report."
Poor B. He tries hard and I'm feeling critical. Hope I snap out of this soon.
We do have an upcoming trip I'm looking forward to. Old friend, my publisher, in a gorgeous old house in my old city...then over to the shore to stay with friends of his, which I'm looking forward to.
I finally met a couple that are his friends and liked them plenty. They're joining us at a Better Angels workshop at my church later this week, which is cool of them. It's an organization that guides groups of conservatives and liberals through communication exercises aimed at defusing the intense polarization that is America right now. I was pleased they said yes!
love
Hops
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Hopsie, I just wanted to say, there's nothing wrong with you not liking things about him. I kind of got the sense that you feel like you shouldn't dislike these things about him? I don't know if I've read that wrong. Apologies if I have. I don't think it's a test of yourself to tolerate things that you find irritating? He can be a nice guy with good intentions and good core values and still not be a good fit for you. Doesn't mean there's anything bad about him or wrong in anyway, or with you. We all just have some people we click with and some we don't. I did notice that you're empathetic to B's habits but not to your own? The report card he gives you after a get together - that you don't like but feel like a jerk for mentioning - is kind of the same thing that you do when you write emails you don't send - which you say is a bad thing, but from my point of view, what you're doing is working through what's in your head in private, rather than loading it on to him for him to deal with. He doesn't seem to be doing the same thing for you.
I think what I'm mostly trying to say - and it's meant in a kind way, not a critical way - is that I feel like I'm hearing ways of how you feel you should be accommodating things about him that you find irritating. But there's nothing wrong with feeling irritated, Hops, or finding things that people do irritating. He can be a good man with annoying traits. It's not a sign of anything bad in either one of you - it's just people and honesty (and you being honest with yourself, which I think is most important).
I think you passed the test of who you are a long time ago, Hops. Intelligent, compassionate, emotionally astute, resourceful, honest, hard working, etc. You don't need to add "never finds anything annoying" to the list. It's alright to feel annoyed, and if it gets to the point where you feel tense rather than relaxed when you're with him then it's alright to take a break and give yourself some space xx
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Well, I guess we're allowed to be set in our ways too Hops.
He can be allowed to give his spreadsheet analysis of your time spent together - AND - Hops can be totally annoyed that he's shifted into intellectualizing it - rather than just savoring the experience. Once you both can see where you are in that "dance"... then you can look for ways to be different, see it differently, maybe signal the other that NOW is not a good time for that?
But that doesn't sound very relaxed & comfortable. For either of you.
I don't have any helpful ideas here. I feel OK being myself around the viking... as we're still online... because he's putting in 12-16 hr days at work on the computer and I'm doing good to hear from him once a week. I just don't think it's going to even "launch". I'm too conflicted about wanting connection and not wanting to risk getting into another relationship where I'm dominated. And have to do all the heavy lifting - and change - to make the relationship work. I'm not seeing anything in his weekly messages that makes me think he's even interested. He's being nice - and just chatting like a normal person would... but I get the sense there's no room in his life for caring about someone else.
And there's not exactly any other fish in the lake I'm fishing in that turn me on and flip my "play" switch.
One of the big brothers suggested that I simply stop all this "online shopping" and meditate on the space to be filled. I'm beginning to think that has just as much chance of success as anything else right now.
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Hops:
Learning to be ok around challenging people IS big therapy, IME. We don't grow through calm happy times. We grow through discomfort. You have a productive attitude about , IMO. Learning more about yourself.... whatever happens with B. Yes.
I wonder what it would feel like to calmly speak about something before we're annoyed....to say something circumventing.....without the angst.
When you do bring up the difficult topics with B....is there angst?
I'm pretty sharp around setting boundaries lately. Then I feel....
bad.
Shame that I wasn't kind, maybe. I realize I don't always have to be kind, but I grapple with myself over it. What I think happens us I wait too long which builds up resentments and pressure, then POP. I snap or shhhh someone, sans patience.
I look forward to speaking up proactively, and feeling perfectly entitled to....sans angst.
This is an excercise in finding more control over my emotions by excercising less control over them.....less stuffing, more just letting them be without "handling" them maybe.
I'm sorry you and B haven't found your stride, Hops. You are right about learning about yourself through these experiences times, IME.
Lighter
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Thank you, Lighter, for the general nudge to not let things pile up before speaking of them...calmly, without angst.
That's exactly what healthy, ongoing assertiveness looks like and I need to practice it much more consistently.
I think what happens is I can slip into ruminating about these qualities of Bs, on my own time, and rumination is always unproductive. Clarity, speech and appropriate action are productive.
I do struggle with determining when I'm being critical of him for something he can't do anything about. Like his OCDish side, and some of his communication habits. I'm not sure he could change these even if he wanted to. So I have to challenge myself about the irritation or anxiety that comes up....
Working on it. Thanks again.
xo
Hops
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Having a bit of a blue day, but that's common with me in spring. (Bizarre sub-variant of SAD, when instead of being stimulated by the renewed sunshine and warmth, I feel like going to bed for two weeks. The sedentary, hiding response is beginning to threaten my health, so I am feeling quite concerned about it.)
The other thing is a concern that even if I get better at in-the-moment assertiveness, what's really bothering me about B is just personality stuff that's probably VERY hard wired, and nothing B can help.
Today I tried being quite emotionally open with him when he asked about Easter. I explained that it's a tough holiday for me because I have a host of loving memories, including a peak joyous one, about my D connected to Easter. I went into enough detail that it'd be hard not to be affected, imo, if anyone had shared that with me. And his voice didn't vary an iota. It wasn't cold/forceful Executive, but it was still Executive. He said in the exact same chipper tone as when he first said hello and chatted about his morning, "Thanks for sharing that with me! I understand!" And it sounded so disengaged that I didn't hear any empathy at all.
I actually pressed the point a little. I said, you know, when I just explained how I was feeling and you said you understood, I didn't really hear a feeling coming through. He explained very very logically, oh no, I understood the nice memory, what a great story about you giving her that whole new room on Easter. And I said, I mean about the pain. And he said, oh no I understood the good side and the bad side. Sometimes I don't feel good in my relationship with my daughter. (I internally gave up at that point. He sees his D weekly and his grand-Ds always visit.)
Small necessary detour here. The classic conundrum of men wanting to fix things/offer solutions versus women just wanting to be heard, or feel sympathized with. That is true. But with B, it's on steroids. He has a compulsion to fix that actually makes a lot of our exchanges very shallow. Like, if I say I'm struggling with motivation to exercise, he goes, "You know, they say it's a good idea to take a walk after dinner." Or I mention bad sleep. "Have you tried going to bed earlier?" Some incredibly simplistic, obvious piece of "fix it" that any person over 21 has known (the factoid or exceedingly basic advice) for an entire adult life (much less a life as a health researcher/writer). It's just so shallow and reflexive and it means nothing, except that he has scratched his itch to advise and so he's done. No empathy, I think, is what's getting to me. Or if it's there, I'm not perceiving it. He's cheerful when I make him feel happy. Full stop.
So. He ends the call when I --as I do very rarely-- told him something real and deep and detailed about my loss of my D. He ends it with, "Well, one of these days we can do something about contacting your daughter."
I was offended. Can't help it. It was SO clueless and said to me....B has not taken in, understood, or really listened to anything I've told him about the estrangement. And his simplistic fix-it, as though now that HE is offering to manage this...just pissed me off. To me, this is where the executive fix it reflex which is SO powerful in him, becomes a test for me. I don't know if I can stand it long term. And I don't entirely blame him for it, he honestly seems incapable of anything different. So far anyway.
I just said, "No. This is not something you can fix." And left it at that. But it left me doubting the whole thing. I know, it's a theme that I reel with doubt. We'll undoubtedly have a very nice evening and soon I'll be back to enjoying the simple sensation of having someone in my life to wants to be there.
Thanks for reading this--I just needed to dump it somewhere. Love you guys.
xxoo
Hops
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Still listening, Hops.
Suggest you start calling him "Spock"... but then, I'm in one of "those" moods again. LOL.
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Now there's an idea!
:lol:
Perfect. That even incorporates the compulsive engineeritis.
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Hops, you have every right to be offended and pissed off. You're not being heard. Everyone has a right to be offended and pissed off.
B lacking empathy and understanding, his right wing politics, his sexist/racist jokes, the groaning when you kiss, the obsession over food, his fear of new things, all the things you've talked about on here - none of these things make him a bad person. The fact that he isn't a bad person doesn't mean he's right for you, or that there's anything wrong with you for being pissed off/offended/irritated when he does any of the above. I expect you are right that this is his personality, that it's hard wired into him and that it's not stuff he can change, however much he might want to. In just the same way I doubt you can change feeling offended at racist or sexist comments, or at a lack of understanding about the situation with your D, or feeling miffed that planning a meal is such a pantomime when a bowl of soup and a bread roll would do, or being irritated with some of the things he does.
I think there are different kinds of people. Some people are doers and fixers on a superficial level - try this, tick the box, move on to the next thing. Nothing wrong with that. Some people are doers and fixers on a deeper level - they think and they ponder, they talk, they cry, they try to understand more, they reach out to other people, they accept that some things can't be fixed but it hurts deeply because it isn't something they can throw away and start again with. Nothing wrong with that, either. We are what we are.
Your situation with your D is something that few people would understand, I think. I think family fall outs of this nature often make people think there's a quick fix solution, a couple of chats, everyone apologises and it all gets better. Few people really get it. I get the same with my son; very few people really understand the extent of his problems and I get to a point where I can't face going through it all again because it's just too painful. To explain to someone how hurt you are, how deeply you've been affected, how tough you find upcoming events takes it out of you. For them not to hear - and then to say "I don't always get on with my daughter" - is tougher still.
It isn't a bad thing or fault on anyone's part if you and B don't work out. It isn't a failure if he's a nice guy and you enjoy his company but he can't give you the depth that you need with other people. Some habits can be overlooked, some things can be worked on - and some differences are so great that it just won't happen. I just don't think you should beat yourself up about this if you end up thinking it's not going to work out.
I wish I had some suggestions for things to do in relation to the SAD but there's nothing I can think of. I'm kind of having the opposite at the moment; I'm starting to feel so much better as the days are getting longer that I'm realising this winter actually affected me quite badly so I'm going to have to try and address it for next winter. I hope it passes quickly for you and doesn't linger for too long. And I'm sorry for the feelings that come up over the Easter break and I hope that the days don't pass too slowly xx
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Tupp, thank you.
That was a perfectly mature and measured response to my rant...I really appreciate it.
Saw B last night, with a group of others, and was again struck by how lovely he can be. As ever, once I am with him again the panicking over the personality bits that don't work for me recedes. He said something about how stressed I'd seemed on the phone and was very gentle and authentic.
I think I'm carrying an existing anxiety cycle into this relationship and that sometimes my reactions are disproportionate. But I also appreciate how often you remind me that it's not a sin to be irritated, either.
I guess I shouldn't be surprised that after so many years on my own, the prospect of being close and connected, much less committed, is daunting. Maybe in some ways I don't see when in the grip of them, I have an impulse to sabotage it with a stream of inner critical thoughts.
Thanks again for the insight and faith,
Hops
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Sigh. This might sound brutal Hops; but it's because I luvs ya.
Any time you start thinking that you can remake yourself and that will fix the relationship... it's bad. I see you keep putting the responsibility for reacting to who he is on yourself. Maybe you simply don't like those things about him. And perhaps they bother you enough - and always will - that you need to think of your dates as "practice" for someone who is a better fit.
But you're allowed to not like those things about him. It doesn't make you mean or uncharitable or anything else. And it doesn't make him a bad person. Just "not right" for Hops.
I think your anxiety comes up AFTER he's done something you don't like, but you stifle that to avoid the confrontation. And because those things bother you deeply enough you feel like you're betraying yourself. You not only have to decide if you can live with the way he is; but can you live with yourself, doing that?
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So.....Hops......this B......
From here he's starting to look like one of the people you care for.
Except this is a more lasting permanent exchange of time and resources. I'm not judging you or him or the relationship, bc I don't have enough information. I just share what comes up for me and..... I picture you in this relationship, permanently, without time and space if your own to buffer and heal you.
There are sore spots rubbed raw, and will they be bone oyou n bone when you share intimate space with this fellow? Will meals become trauma OR will you care less about his doofus traits and relax into security of having someone in your life.....having a plan for the future.....I honestly don't know.
I'm not the kind of person who can do that. I've tried, and to an extent, for a short less than 7 year period succeeded, but I was so busy I could almost fool myself into pretending it might be ok.
Escape was always on my mind....one day I knew it would be over. Would have to end. I'd leave, flee, go, and not look back.
I don't want to think of you living that way. Ever.
About feeling cared for, and valued..... it's very important.
:: nodding::.
About companionship.... it's either more comfortable or less. Nothing is perfect, but What it must be, IME, is low drama, sans physical and emotional poking at you. There's no comfort in being poked.
The poking needs to stop, bc no one finds comfort in being poked. Even sainted, healing empaths with ideas about handling the poking, and inevitable feelings about being poked, kwim?
We'll, that wasn't clear at all, but I have to say.....speak up. With clarity. I know there are things to lose. I know there's comfort in the pack. We're pack animals, but we require enough sheltered space....enough true understanding of who our true selves are to exist without feeling trapped, and always in flight mode.
If this B can't come'round nuff to provide emotional safety for you, dear Hops, then you must decide if you can provide it for yourself. With him....without him....no matter what...can you cultivate, in an enduring fashion, for you? Despite whatever poking you're up against?
I ask myself if something will matter in a hundred years...it helps me find perspective. Some things matter much less after the 100 year test.
I can see you in 5 years, very active, you're in groups, have friends, activities and enjoying volunteer slots. I can see you WITH and without B.
I'm not sure if choosing B would break you, or if you'd make peace with what I think of as his blind spots. And....is he the type if man who could make peace with you doing your own thing, busy and active, not entirely focused on him and your life together? If he's needy, and clingy, and annoying as hell when you seek your bliss, to the exclusion if bliss, then maybe he is just practice.
I don't believe other people complete us. I don't feel they should make us happy. We're largely responsible for seeking out joy, IMO.
With that said, our companions shouldn't block joy, challenge our mental health or poke us in every way possible in an ongoing daily fashion either. There has to be some enduring understanding, comfort, and space that's real, and somewhat whole in our lives.
I'm allergic to conflict, and grappling for space and freedom leaves me gasping emotionally. It always has. I assume it always will.
Can you create your own little oasis of comfort in this B equation? Can you not? Can you make comfortable peace with letting this connection, this being adored and needed, go by? Even if B's a very slow learner of all things Hops.... he's identified qualities in you he's drawn to, has assigned an engineer's value to. He dies it often....not likely to stop, IMO either.
I don't care who you are, that's intoxicating stuff....to be so very valued, but it can also be a cell, IME.
If it's the latter.....if you're yearning to be away from b.... it's likely a cell.
Once I rebuffed a guy for seeming needy and clingy.... I sent him away, bc he didn't it couldn't hear me, and give me more requested space...yes, this is my b.
In the space that followed I figured out some very important things. I was unnused to kindness....to caring....to deep and abiding attachment....to being cherished by a man. I decided I could make peace with my discomfort, and I quickly did. He was the live of my life. Things kept getting better and better.....but I had to make conscious adjustments as I went.
We were both givers.... I tried on comfort with receiving. It was different, but it worked. I got better at it, and his comfort levels improved, bc he got to DO what made him feel good.
We all, in the end, do what makes us feel good, Tupp. Some if us can shift or change a bit. Most can't, ime.
I say play with perspective, with receiving, with requesting, and how it feels, Hops.
So far this has been about B needing wanting asking for, stating what makes him feel ok. What about Hops, and her needs, wants, requirements. What do you truly neeeeeeed to be ok on this planet?
You know more about what you don't want. Can you do something proactive about what you do want?
Time to take frank stock, and find some clarity, Hops.
Lighter
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Good post & advice, Lighter.
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Thank you ALL.
I do have to watch out for avoidance, etc. I do have to take responsibility for calming and soothing myself, even when he displays blind spots or quirks he can't help (or needs to be reminded are important to work on). I don't have to reshape myself, become someone I'm not, or abandon my own life because he offers me a shared one. Those are my fears of enmeshment, from my Nmother and from two miserable marriages. I ponder our economic differences, and worry that I might sometimes (when not tuned into my wellbeing) confuse cooperation with obedience.
I don't do obedience. And I have no idea whether he'd fantasize he wants that. Despite my times of anxiety or weakness, I am not afraid I'd abandon myself.
We haven't had the money talk yet, but we will. I will feel more clarity after we do. Depending on whether he signals money as control, versus as cooperation, I'll know whether it feels emotionally safe to go long term. Meanwhile, he's innocent of anything other than my fearful fantasies.
His own neediness I think is manageable on my end by simply claiming the time and space I need. I have consistently done that so far, and he's managed. He gets satisfaction out of other activities and does have a few friends he keeps up with, plus his daughter. So even if he should try to make me his Everything, I will refuse the role. I don't think he intends to do that, but has his unaware stuff too.
The thing about "being poked" is that I'm not. Rather, I'm having surges of anxiety or anger when he simply does or says something that's in his nature, not intended in any negative way. I do feel not that I must change who I am to be with him, but that I must take responsibility for managing myself. Not solely to please or accomodate him, but to create my own peace if I wish to continue in this relationship.
I do have a hypercritical and always-editing reflex that comes up in intimate relationships. I think it's some kind of defensiveness that comes out of intense fear of being controlled. B is managerial, but he's also very decent and cares about doing the right thing. He's managed, managed, managed people and situations his whole life. It's his way of doing good (in his view). So I have to figure out whether I can do the calm and consistent assertiveness that I want to do, aim for, or get better at. Because his nature is such that I'd always need to be able to respond No, thanks but I don't need a solution, etc etc -- always. And if I get calmly comfortable with doing that, with speaking up, with not allowing festering...maybe it'd become a beautiful thing. I think there's a hope of this.
He's not poking me. I'm allowing myself (my raw nature) to be intensely reactive to his ordinary B-ness. IOW, what I take as a poke sometimes, ain't necessarily a poke. It's just a comment, a reflex, a habit of B's.
Yes, if it's too much, I'll take a walk. But I'm not there now. Because the sense of being cherished is also real, and valuable, and surprising to me. It's been so many years since I felt loved, and I do believe B loves me. While being "taken care of" isn't my MO (I have rejected I don't know how many well off men due to incompatibility), B's offer does affect me. I'm just at that place in my life now where I can't pretend that's irrelevant. Kind of hate that it is any factor at all, but in truth, it's there. I just will not allow myself to accept a shared life until and unless my heart goes deeper.
That's the other thing. My heart IS softening, and my own ability to love and cherish is surfacing. I am feeling tenderness toward him lately that is strong and new. Just a sense that he's no more imperfect than I am, and that he does have a good heart and good intention for me, and for us.
I don't know whether that all means we can craft a good life. But I still think it may be possible.
In other news, about my D, got distressing info about her this morning. Will post that on another thread.
You guys have no idea how much it means to have you here. Thank you.
love,
Hops
PS--Occurs to me that I might be driving you guys crazy with a form of Yes-BUTtiness, and want to apologize. On the one hand, I bleat and vent about his Most Irritating habits/impulses, and then you affirm my right to be annoyed by whatever and how it's okay to find this practice rather than permanence. Then I come again and post defending him and positing a possible lovely future with him. So it must feel like watching tennis and a little crazy making. Please forgive and please DO keep sharing your thoughts. Even when I seem to be batting them back, that's likely more unawareness, anxiety, uncertainty. Your thoughts are STILL planting seeds of understanding and insight even if I don't get them fully in the moment.
I think in some ways debating myself. My inconsistency is maddening to me, and must be to you too at times. Know how profoundly (words fail) I am grateful that you keep caring anyway. Your brains and hearts have made so much difference in my life, and this is truly the safest space I've got. Don't give up on me!
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I don't think you're inconsistent, Hops, just muddling through as we all have to! There are times I am envious of people who can just 'be' in a relationship without a long back history that keeps coming up and those who can just not 'see' situations that are in front of them. There is an easiness to life if you can breeze through it with your eyes shut :)
I do think as well, though (and this is where I am always reminded of a therapist I used to see; she used to say "I'm just putting my objective hat on" and mime putting it on her head) that some of the things you mention about yourself -avoidance, fear of enmeshment, panic when certain things come up, anxiety and so on - are your 'hard wired' bits that will always be there - with you aware of them and working on them but there, none the less, in much the same way that B's food thing and not getting the D situation and wanting to fix things will always be there. And it might be that yes, you can work on things, he can work on things and it works, or it might be that you both bring up too many other things in each other to work on (because it just gets too tiring to keep doing it). I don't think there's anything wrong with any of it, on either side, it just is what it is and it is hard to try to have real, authentic relationships and to be empathetic to each other whilst keeping hold of yourself. So I think you're doing a good job of walking that tightrope and stopping for a breather every now and again and I'm glad he was there after you saw the news about your D. It sounds like he did a good job that evening xx
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Hops:
Rant, defend, and bleat away. That's taking everything out, laying on the table, and sorting through. How else to determine what's there, how you feel about it, and what to do?
Only you can determine what's what, and you're certainly going to be the one living with the consequences.
Lighter
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Thanks, you guys, so much.
I was deeply surprised yesterday when I was SO distressed about my D, shared the news with B, and he listened and was present with tenderness and peace. He said not ONE word about "fixing it" and was gentle and calming to be around. It helped me get back my equilibrium.
I know part of it is that I snapped back so strongly the other day when he waded in with his Mr. Fixit boots on. But the thing is...again, he listened. He really listened. And took action based on it (or refrained from acting).
That's probably the most encouraging thing about B.
xxoo
Hops
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Thanks, you guys, so much.
I was deeply surprised yesterday when I was SO distressed about my D, shared the news with B, and he listened and was present with tenderness and peace. He said not ONE word about "fixing it" and was gentle and calming to be around. It helped me get back my equilibrium.
I know part of it is that I snapped back so strongly the other day when he waded in with his Mr. Fixit boots on. But the thing is...again, he listened. He really listened. And took action based on it (or refrained from acting).
That's probably the most encouraging thing about B.
xxoo
Hops
He does listen, Hops, and he takes on board what you say, which is very good. And as time goes on he might not need you to say it - and you may find there are fewer triggers and therefore not feel you need to say it - which would be fab :) I'm glad he was there to help soothe the news about your D a little; I do think difficult things are more bearable when there is someone standing next to you xx
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You're right, Tupp.
Today he stopped by after his family brunch and wanted to talk about great biscuits for 20 minutes. And discuss how offensive the new parking garage policy is.
:lol: :lol: :lol:
If I can remember to value him for his core qualities...and not forget that everyone, including me, will be boring at times.
:shock:
Hops
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You're right, Tupp.
Today he stopped by after his family brunch and wanted to talk about great biscuits for 20 minutes. And discuss how offensive the new parking garage policy is.
:lol: :lol: :lol:
If I can remember to value him for his core qualities...and not forget that everyone, including me, will be boring at times.
:shock:
Hops
Biscuits are great :) I just read an article about how men will find excuses to talk to you if they're keen ;) Even if you have no interest at all in what they're talking about :) It is the core qualities that are most important, in my opinion. I've been out with guys, and been friends with ladies, who are full of interesting stories and know all sorts of facts and figures and are well informed and can talk about all sorts of current affairs and I've thought, wow, this person is so interesting, I love spending time with them. And then they've vanished without a bye or leave, or they've bailed when I've been going through a tough spot, or they've said something unpleasant about my son and so on and so on. Kindness, compassion, resourcefulness are all big factors for me now. It does take time though, doesn't it, to get to know someone and work out what their core qualities are and I think that's what can be difficult sometimes. I think you're doing a grand job, Hopsie :) xx
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You got it, Tupp.
In a time like this when being alone with very painful news would be miserable, having my ole geezer prattling on about biscuits is okay.
Weird, and not stimulating, but I find it okay. He's who he is and one of those things is domestic, which I think is nice. Something about pottering around the yard together was very comforting.
So if he wants to talk about his mother's biscuits, I'll breathe. Just have to remember that the food obsession is his, not mine, and I can stay calm around it.
I'm grateful for my day off today, and will see B at the end of it.
xxoo
Hops
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Saturday (as you know) I learned my estranged only child has a life-threatening illness. Treatable, but very serious for someone in her circumstances.
So last night, I'm with B at dinner, still feeling a lot of heartache, and he says, "Sometime tonight you're going to have to smile!" Earlier, crossing the parking lot, he did a little monologue about how he likes to smile and say Hi to strangers, because "Isn't that a nice thing to do?" (I didn't quite grasp he was trying to "manage" me at the moment.)
When he made the comment as we sat down, I said in a straightforward tone, "I don't feel like faking anything," and didn't rearrange my face. We moved on.
Today, I sent him an email about Don't Tell Women to Smile with a bunch of links, and explained briefly why it's a sexism issue. I wasn't nasty at all, or accusatory, just told him many people aren't aware of how it can be seen, and maybe these articles would be of interest.
I got a huge email back expressing "astonishment" and explaining that he is always telling people--men, women, strangers, employees--to smile. Because "it's much more pleasant to be around people who seem happy." I get it. I have sensed for a long time that he is controlling, as well as having classic entitlement reflexes (people need to arrange themselves in a pleasant way because he wants pleasantness to look at). The way he evaluates and "grades" everyone -- servers, his children, his granddaughters, people on his committees, elsewhere in his life. He does make many comments about how people are falling short. It's like, he looks for what to re-engineer.
I think this is somewhat natural for a man whose life experience has been a whole series of situations in which power and authority rule, and someone always has power and issues commands. He has a quiet voice and smiles a lot himself. But he's always scanning for what to "fix" or improve in others.
Anyway, I sent him links to basic articles that explain why, although not like major feminist issues such as unequal pay, reproductive rights or domestic violence....commanding women to smile is a real and symbolic issue. (Research also shows it is stressful and fatiguing, and on the street, a form of harrassment. Mild, maybe, but these kinds of things are cumulative.)
I sent him a longer explanation, and told him how much I appreciated the dialogue.
But I am expecting that this is a stress test for our relationship. If I am not welcome to openly share how I see an experience, or what my take on sexism is -- particularly when I express those opinions courteously and calmly -- then I'll have a pretty big red flag to consider. That he considers it "looking for something to be upset about" is his right. But it's also my right to feel what I feel.
After all, I told him openly when we met that I am feminist, and that issues of sexism and racism are deeply important to me.
Last night, I was feeling heartbreak. And didn't feel like perking up my expression to please him. I am glad that I'm not in Warren Jeffs' old compound, either, learning to "be sweet."
The real shame of it is that feeling already heartbroken, having him respond to it by commanding me to pretend I felt something "pleasant" -- just made me sadder.
So I guess the comforts of partnership work when we're sharing yardwork in silence. (He loves to do yardwork.) But maybe not so much on other levels.
I hope on our upcoming trip out of town (should we make it together until the 20th), we'll have time to talk this through successfully as we have quite a few other things. Maybe we will. Or not...
dunno,
Hops
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Hopsie, it's like Snakes and Ladders, you get a good experience and go up the ladder ten paces and then hit a snake and slide back down again :)
My thoughts, for what they are worth (and with a disclaimer that I'm tired so might not make any sense) are that I think his comment was insensitive. Asking you if you wanted to talk about the situation or chatting about other things or offering to stay home if you'd prefer and so on would have all been good. Asking you if you're going to smile when you've had such awful news and are so powerless to do anything about it - no, insensitive and unnecessary.
I get the notion about it being seen as a sexist/feminist issue but also wonder (and apologies if this is blunt because I don't mean it to be) if you felt you needed to justify not wanting (or being able) to smile with lots of 'proof' that you didn't have to rather than just being able to say 'no' and not feel the need to explain or justify it? I'm thinking back to times when I used to go through similar things with my T over home education; I got slated a lot by all sorts of people and would find myself going to great lengths to 'prove' it was a good option and that research showed that. My T would say "why can't you just say 'it's what I prefer' and leave it at that"? And she was right - I felt I had to justify my choices rather than just expecting people to accept my choices or leave me alone if they didn't want to. It just sort of reminded me of that when I was reading through all the things you sent him - I don't know if there are similarities in the two situations?
I can get him not seeing it as a sexist issue; lots and lots of people don't see the same things as being sexist/racist etc. Which again made me wonder if it would be clearer to explain that you, personally, are going through a very tough time and smiling wasn't on the agenda. The sexism angle - which I do get and agree with - seems to depersonalise it in some way? And make it more of a general issue, when it feels like it's a more personal issue (in so much as he doesn't seem to be getting the situation with your D and how deeply it affects you). I don't know if that makes sense. I hope it's not complete gobbledegook :) xx xx
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No, that makes TOTAL sense, Tupp! Thanks for this question.
I think I resorted to sending him calm, analytical information about the issue (as a part of sexism) because to react personally is more threatening to me. Makes me feel much more vulnerable. I retreated to my safer space, which is observing and being analytical about sexism and racism.
To feel and be vulnerable about every instance of sexism or dominance I observe personally just feels shattering. The more analytical approach is less painful for me. My intelligence (which he often comments on) protects me from condescension, paternalism, that stuff.
Inside, little Hops is shrieking: A little respect, please? You entitled controlling asshole? (But I sense sharing that might not be, errrr, productive....)
:lol:
xxoo
Hops
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No, that makes TOTAL sense, Tupp! Thanks for this question.
I think I resorted to sending him calm, analytical information about the issue (as a part of sexism) because to react personally is more threatening to me. Makes me feel much more vulnerable. I retreated to my safer space, which is observing and being analytical about sexism and racism.
To feel and be vulnerable about every instance of sexism or dominance I observe personally just feels shattering. The more analytical approach is less painful for me. My intelligence (which he often comments on) protects me from condescension, paternalism, that stuff.
Inside, little Hops is shrieking: A little respect, please? You entitled controlling asshole? (But I sense sharing that might not be, errrr, productive....)
:lol:
xxoo
Hops
Yes, I get that Hopsie, makes total sense to me (and have similar myself at times). So I suppose my question if I were in your shoes now would be - is it B that makes little Hops shriek and feel vulnerable, or men in general, or people in general who don't see/hear/recognise what you're going through? Because I suppose that would have some bearing on the situation. And "you entitled, controlling arsehole" - I'm laughing but sometimes I think that is productive :) Short, succinct, to the point :) Protecting you or him in that situation? Stifling true feelings for fear of offending? Or not handling it the right way? I only ask as these are all things that go through my mind when dealing with difficult situations (and I have to say these days "Get lost, arsehole" is starting to feel like a more effective way of dealing with things rather than me having to put myself through the ringer trying to figure out the right way to do something, lol). Isn't it all so complicated? I hope this bit irons out/sorts itself out. You are getting a good workout in soul searching and working through things, at the very least :) I'm sorry the comfortable support when tidying the yard didn't carry on to the next get together xx
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It's definitely because it's B, because I've allowed myself to start hoping about a whole future...so it matters much more that he commanded me to smile (didn't ask, more or less declared I had to do it).
I really did tell him on our first or second date, in a very direct way: feminism is deep in my core and issues of sexism and racism are so important to me that I've studied and thought and learned about them intentionally for decades. I was really clear.
So if he's dismissive of my courteous explanation of a common example, then that's pretty red flaggy.
And I'm hopeful, but not expectant.
Hugs
Hops
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Hops:
B feels what he feels, and in his heart he feels entitled to it, bc he is.
What he's not entitled to is his expectation everyone will feel and do as he feels and does. Honestly, it's hard to imagine him smiling through his own troubled child's life threatening illness he had no control over.
You must be careful you don't smack him down hard over the smiley stuff, bc of strong painful feelings around your child....stuff?
They're..... separate, but presenting keen opportunity to work on his communication style, expectations, and entitlement....but gently, with clarity, and awareness that everyone is entitled to their feelings. Not just him.
Easier if everyone avoids taking everything personally. Feelings aren't right or wrong, they just are.
I hope you feel heard, and B does too.
Light
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Tag teaming off Tupp's brilliant insight. Even if it's not quite on target for you Hops.
I heard what you said Hops, about using the sexist angle to explain why you didn't have to smile and pretend to be cheerful, when you're clearly not feeling it. (100% with ya on this, for a lot of personal reasons about honoring our own feelings.)
But I wonder if maybe you're using that as "experts say..." justification for just being YOU? Like presenting evidence or a court order, that gives you permission to turn his request to smile down? (nitpicking, I know - but the parallels to what Hol's going through are still intense for me) Because you are important enough; your feelings are real enough - it's life, to have feelings; that you don't have to pretend anything to suit anyone else. Pffft. I'm going to dismiss my own idea/nitpicking... still waffling over that...
but I do feel that it's important for us to claim our power to just feel how we feel and to hell with what other people want us to be. And just stand on that claim and declare it - and go on. It's kinda of a boundary to me. Especially because of enmeshment issues. No one can tell me how to feel. F you and the horse you rode in on, if you're trying to. The only way some of us can get to a "solution" - or a reconciliation to - a situation... is just let our feelings run their course. They always do.
Resisting the feeling, stuffing it, stifling it or avoiding or pretending otherwise... JUST.DOESN'T.HELP. Especially, when it's a feeling from the "grief category".
And neither does the number of dark, overcast days we're having this spring. It's been a really long "winter" around here and I'm really starting to feel it now.
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You guys ARE brilliant. Thank you so much.
Lighter, I particularly appreciated your calm suggestions to not come down hard and to not take it personally. Your post helped me imagine moving through this while not losing my balance. Of course you are right. B is probably feeling all sorts of things that are not pleasant about me calling him on that comment. You're right that he's entitled to feel however he feels, as am I. Hmmm. Entitlement is just such a tricky tricky devil.
And back to Tupp's insights about me kind of going "academic" in my response to B (well observed) instead of just feeling, responding or not, being real and centered in the moment, without the intellectual approach. I guess I feel that I'd better use whatever tools I have, because his sheen of power, will and entitlement is pretty strong. I feel braver in the brain than in the heart. And maybe what it means is that there's something about that exchange that's rippling and reminding and waking me. I hope I perceive well but keep my balance. (Perhaps there's something about a tall, powerful man trying to suppress me--which is how I see it, although it's a MILD example--that's very triggering in a personal way. Not just because of our culture...but because of my brother.)
It'll be painful if I need to let go of the shared life dream. But his impatience for me to "get it over with" or "go back to Stepford smiling now" was concerning. B does have many years of experiencing the world and others catering to him, and that's the result his successful life has produced. He relishes being catered to, being served, and always has an extra demand/requirement/tweak for a restaurant server, a store employee, and now I gather...unsmiling people anywhere. They're disturbing his bubble of pleasantness. As it seems my pain over my D has done.
Ahh, well. Cloudy spring, as you say Amber. I know all will change because that's what life is. And if I can be open and curious about how it goes, instead of fearful, that'll be better.
Nice spring freshet just opened up.
love
Hops
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Well, called B to ask if his day of golf worked out -- and because I didn't want this little tempest to fester. We had a long talk. He doesn't agree at all, not a bit, with any point I raised or any article I sent him raised about telling women (including strangers) to smile. I explained how I see it. Then I told him, "My heart's hamburger right now" and he said that made him understand how I was feeling that evening.
I mentioned gently, you know, if we need to become friends instead, that's okay, and I won't stop caring about you. He seemed really agitated and said "I've been through a lot with my wife." I said I get that. Then he said he felt a lot better and kept trying to end the topic. At the end of the call he was clearly agitated but wanted to schedule our next date. I could tell he was drained (by my emails, his reaction, this conversation) so told him don't worry about the calendar right now, just have a good sleep and we'll talk soon. I asked him gently, "You okay?" and he gave a big sigh, but said yes.
An hour later I heard him on my answering machine saying, "I want to thank you for our talk tonight. If you were here right now I'd want to take you to bed, not to make love, but just to hold you and appreciate you. Thank you for that call." He sounded emotional and genuine. I don't really understand but was glad he wound up feeling good about it. My truthful reaction was I am glad I wasn't there, as he always wants to express everything physically, I can feel physically smothered by him, and I sometimes wish he would understand things and be able to verbalize them, not just act them out. But that ain't who he is, and I'm still in the midst of trying to discern how that would feel long term. We're both getting older.
Mystifying. It was a difficult confrontation (the whole thing), but I'm not sorry it happened. I felt I hung on to my integrity, without anger, but also without apology.
I don't know that I'll ever feel entirely comfortable with him but I don't think he's misogynist. (Unthinkingly sexist but not misogynist.) It's just his whole way of seeing other people -- as beings to be managed and corrected by him because he always knows what needs correcting -- that troubles me. He may not intend it to but it feels arrogant. I am strong enough to push back, most of the time. But I wish I didn't have to. I wonder why he doesn't understand much about how he comes across? I guess he's been so busy and active that he hasn't spent years with his head jammed up his navel the way I have. I have thought and introspected so much that I think I just have a whole different reference of experience, my personal encyclopedia. And he does too.
So that's the latest.
Men are strange. Women, of course...not at all....
love
Hops
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I think he's lacking a good deal in the emotional intelligence department, Hops.
I'm so dealing with that very thing right now. The proximity problem. The physical, mental, emotional boundary challenges sans any awareness at all....just me, hyper alert, hyper aware, hyper vigilance.... and I'm drained over it fairly consistently. The introvert in me flails to re charge.
And the Archie Bunker re runs.....oy. In some ways it's familiar.... So much like my father. Sometimes it's protective of me. Sometimes..... it's just proximity challenging.
Some people have very little awareness.
Reassurance and attention seem to make it better, ime. I try to remain curious. I try to walk in other people's shoes.
Lighter
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((((Lighter)))).
Reassurance and attention make sense. Thank you.
I'm paying attention to what happens next. The tempest
in a teapot may have sunk us or friend-zoned us. Or not.
I hope this day goes more gently for you. If the man/men
who are on the island with you are not more considerate now,
given what's happening with your father, well....blockheads.
And your father is an Archie Bunker type? One can love all
sorts of people anyway, barring viciousness, in my experience. Not
your fault and in a what-he-was-taught way, probably not his. That
does make it harder to grieve but the cosmos can make sense of it all.
Hold on to your self-care and don't be perfect, hear?
Hops
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I think he's very different to you, Hopsie, far less introspective and I think he's done a lot less soul searching. I do kind of think that people who've been through a lot in their lives often end up having very deep thoughts and feelings about a whole range of things, because they've been exposed to so much. Some, of course, go the other way and block lots of things out, but I think you've both had very different life experiences and they've brought you to different places now. I do wonder if someone more sensitive or more emotionally aware would be a better match for you. I kind of get the feeling that B is/would be happy with a lady who is nice to him and is happy to snuggle up, whereas I get the feeling that you kind of work on a deeper basis than that most of the time. Whether you can meet in the middle I don't know. I understand the not wanting to go into those later years alone (I'm aware of it now and I'm 44 so I can only imagine it getting stronger as the years go by). It's very difficult, particularly with the situation with your D at the moment as well. I'm sorry there is so much going on for you to cope with right now xx
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Yes. Tupp, I have been thinking almost the exact same thing.
A perky lady who cooks, makes out whenever he feels the mood, and doesn't trouble him with difficult thinking.
I'm struggling but suspecting maybe I need to decide soon. If I leave B, I can still hope (however faintly) to still meet someone my age who IS emotionally available. If I don't leave B, I might have shelter and help (if he provided that for me) in older age, but no connection.
Invited him over last night and he kindly helped me re-hang washed curtains.
I made a nice meal (except the sausages in the veggie stew were vegan, which he noted).
I don't make desserts so he had butter and honey on the amazing bakery bread which is his favorite.
We watched a show I'd been eager to introduce him too and he loved it. Two episodes.
But I didn't feel chemistry, didn't feel like much necking, did feel he didn't give me enough space. He sits right in the middle of my couch and that kind of forces me (and pooch, whom he enjoys) to cram into a small space beside him. I made him move over. I was less affectionate because I felt smothered AND because I'm battling resentment.
He knows what's going on in my life, both with Ngent and my D, and doesn't ask (unfair, he did ask something about Ngent). And I'm keeping up a cheerful front because the whole message over the "smile" discussion that I took in was: "I find it much more pleasant to be around people who seem happy." It's the seem (his unintended reveal) that is haunting me. It's making me think thoughts like...he wants a Stepford woman (who snuggles) and is not interested or able to know me in my reality. That's entirely okay with him but not for me.
I tried to be pleasant anyway but I know he felt rejected and was pissed. Doesn't show it much but I sense sulking.
Just as with my D, I don't have to make any rapid decision. He may even make one before me. But I'm feeling as though I can't deny indefinitely how unsatisfying (and likely ultimately hurtful) this lack of connection and real communication feels.
xo
Hops
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I agree, no decisions necessary, particularly at the moment with your D situation going on as well. I do think if you're with B then there's DEFINITELY no way you will meet a more emotionally attuned man. It is hard, but I am just hoping there is a man out there somewhere wishing he could meet a deep thinking, caring woman :) The having to be cheerful all the time has caused me more pain in my life than I care to remember. I don't think it's a good habit to get in to xx
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OOOPS.
I may just have finished things.
Went for dinner with a girlfriend with whom I have one of those rare, you can call me at 3am, kinds of understandings. (Very similar to this VESMB!). And I caught her up about B, and drank 2 glasses of wine.
So I get home and call B to ask how his Sunday's gone. He's doing taxes. But then he gets going: "I remember with my wife's family, how nice it was that when there was a leavetaking, they would stand on the porch and wave until we were out of sight. You closed the curtains and snapped off the light before I was even out of the driveway."
O
M
G
I finally let loose. I told him with kindness that I do care about him but I feel he wants something SCRIPTED, and that's not how I felt. I was happy to have him here but I was really tired and heading for bed. He goes, "Well it would be all right if you didn't feel like it or forgot to do it sometimes, but I think it would be a nice way to show....."
Blah blah blah. SMILE when your heart is breaking. STAND out in the cold and wave at me in order to make me feel good....
Jesus. I told him "I don't feel comfortable with this at ALL because it feels very controlling. You have script for how you want me to behave, rituals you value...and this feels so controlling to me."
He doesn't get this at all. Not even a little bit.
I say, "I've had a lot of raw things going on this last week. I was just calling to see how your day went. And you offer me another script of the kind of performance that makes you feel good. Like me...smiling on cue."
And he goes, "Well I didn't mean it that way. But I need to get back to my taxes. I hope you have a wonderful evening."
Oh
shit.
I think it's gonna end.
Pretty quick.
The level of disconnect and sense that his compulsion to control and script....are beyond me.
I kept saying, "I'm not angry with you at all. I just think I can't fill the roles you have fantasized for me."
Oh dear. But I'll be surprised if this isn't over soon.
:(
I felt authentic in my conversation with my gf. The contrast was overwhelming. I just called another friend and narrated the B conversation and she said, unprompted, it's just like Stepford Wives. YES. Poor B is so driven by his engineeritis, and in my view completely lacking in insight or curiosity about how he comes across with people close to him (which may explain the strain he mentions in his relationship with his own D and grand-Ds) that he has absolutely NO IDEA why scripted smiles and scripted farewell rituals (that maintain his happy bubble) come across as controllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllling.....
Yikers, yikers. At least I just got to laugh about it. With friends. I just can't see how I can comply, going forward. I think we're probably two steps from the end. He's just not going to get it. Or even...begin to get a fraction of it. And I don't see how I could sign on to a lifetime of that much of a lack of insight or understanding. Even with a basically sweet man who's been a comfort in many ways.
Right now, the balance is tipping...apart. And so be it. No regrets and no villainy. Just what...Tupp, you've described. Maybe he's just not the right guy for me. And maybe I'm not the right girl for him. And that's okay. Sad but okay.
love
Hops
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It is sad, Hops, but I'm glad you have the foresight and the honesty to see it. He's on a different wavelength to you, I think. He's gone through the motions of trying to see things your way but he doesn't really get it, in my opinion. Your heart has been mushed open again with the news about your D and he's critiquing your sending off performance. No. Not right for you. What is good is that it's shown you you can do this - you can hold yourself, stay calm, be assertive, take the risk - and back out again if you realise it's not right for you. You deserve to be happy xx
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Thanks, Tupp.
I also feel somewhat badly because I over-react to his "edits" and "improvements" and criticisms.
I think if I were less raw, maybe I could've just listened to him describe his "this is exactly how I'd like you to say goodbye when I leave your house" fantasy. I could've listened, gone mmm-hmmm, oh that was sweet of her family wasn't it...and then just said something like, "Well nope, you'll not get that from me, but people are all different, aren't they?"
And maintained my cool. But....I didn't.
I told him I'd be available all day today if he'd like to talk. If he doesn't call that means he's also ready to end it if we don't have a breakthrough. And I think it's unrealistic to think he'll suddenly understand.
Maybe I'll write an email, or maybe it's a bad idea. He is NOT stupid, so I hope he'll be able to see a pattern.
Hugs
Hops
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Hopsie, you haven't over reacted at all, quite the opposite. You've just had terrible news about your D. His response was to tell you to smile. You went out for the day and then called him to see how he was. He wasn't sitting at home worrying about how you were feeling, it seemed it was quite the opposite. And then he feels a need to complain that you didn't see him off in the way he liked? I think you've reacted very calmly to everything that's been going on. Yes, if you were less raw, you could have listened to him talk and maintained your cool. Equally, he could have been aware that you are raw (and it goes without saying that no-one with a heart could fail to be affected by this news about your D so for you to be feeling raw at the moment is the only way anyone would feel, in my opinion) and asked you how you felt, if you wanted to talk, chatted about nothing in particular. Instead he felt the need to critique the way you said goodnight? I think you're taking too much responsibility for how this has been going, to be honest. He could have made more of an effort and worked a bit harder on this one xx
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Please stop blaming yourself for your actual feelings about how B is. And thinking that there is something wrong with "how you are".
BULL.
It's not your job to "fix" yourself - as a condition for a relationship. /end truth
It's not his place to "instruct you" on behavior from you that becomes the basis for continuing a relationship. That's a big boundary transgression. /end truth
Sorry. I've held this in, for some time. "Stepford Wives" indeed. I know I've done a 180 on my judgement of B. But, over the amount of time of this "getting to know you" phase what you've described is so antithetical to what I know about who you are... and I'm just really tired of watching you trying to bend yourself into the pretzel'd version of Hops that he seems to demand from you... and then you beat yourself up, because you're just not "feeling it".
Stop it. Please. This is a lot more than just an "engineering" perspective on the world. There is something "broken" in B that he doesn't recognize that you are not "programmable" to suit his fantasy of a "perfect relationship". If you continue - I guarantee you'll be "punished" by him, for that. One way or another.
Even your pup will come and apologize and snuggle, if she hurts you. B doesn't seem to have a clue that his tone-deafness to your emotional needs HAS hurt you. And that makes me mad, in your defense.
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((((((((((((Tupp and Amber)))))))))))))
My gratitude for your support is inexpressible. Lighter's too if she were chiming in.
Thank you.
My only TINY delay in making the choice (that I've already nearly made at some level) is thinking that Lighter might remind me that one can work with this kind of thing, modify it, and I believe her. I'm just not sure I'm that competent or brave or disciplined a "one", is all. My discipline is rare and my will so mild as to barely register.
I can't tell you how amazing it is to tune in here and find such extraordinary support from such deep perspectives. It's inexpressibly amazing. I feel so incredibly fortunate to be one of the wee group of Amazons Doc G has empowered here.
If B calls and we talk things through today things could change...or at least pause. But I'm thinking he's plenty smart and plenty attached to his view of things (and his compulsions) so wouldn't be surprised if we're both backing way simultaneously.
If he doesn't call, I'll call and tell him I've decided.
love and endless thanks,
Hops
-
I read your email. It's above and beyond kind. Generous. Appreciative of differences even.
I think you deserve that in return.
That's all. Carry on.
-
I posted but then removed a draft email I was thinking of sending B.
I think it was off tone, but am pretty sure I'll send something similar.
Without so much gushing. I'm not feeling as I did even this morning.
I don't want nor need to be angry at him but my eyes are open now.
It was subtle enough that it look a while to fully recognize what the cost would be.
Regardless of his intentions, his micromanaging and controlling stuff is too much.
And when he's focused on grooming me for a part, he's not able to see me.
I think the empathy's been missing to a degree all along, and I didn't see it.
I felt that night at the restaurant that my sadness was annoying him.
That's really all I need to know. I don't have to analyse it any more.
B just doesn't seem capable of being genuinely intimate and I don't want a partner
who'll do the cold executive thing he retreats to. I don't blame him for his wiring but think
I just got a much clearer glimpse of what it might be like to be his wife.
He hasn't called all day. It might have made a difference, but he chose not to.
(He once broke up with a woman he was dating by just dropping her, without explanation,
he told me. So he may have made that decision anyway.)
I'll send some form of email, because I think it's the right thing to do.
Thanks for putting up with this saga. Y'all have been extraordinary. I've learned a lot
and though I'm disappointed I don't regret it at all. It gave me happy practice for a while.
And that's good! Should I get lucky and find someone more compatible, I'll be readier.
love
Hops
-
I sent B the email. Gratitude and farewell. And an honest description of what has defeated my hopes.
I am paying attention to how it felt. A little bit of a wave of cold, because I am alone again and the future looms. But another thing that happened after I hit Send was that my shoulders instantly dropped an inch.
I hope that means I did the right thing.
Hops
-
Hops, for what it's worth, I think you did the right thing. You've been very aware throughout of whether or not you were responding to certain things B did because of certain things other people had done in the past (personally I think your responses were spot on each time and you were far more caring, gracious and willing to take time and listen than I can be) and you've most definitely put the time and effort in. And you did have some nice times and moments with B, and I think they come to the fore a bit more once things settle and some of the other stuff starts to fall back a little.
I do think difficult times are the real test of people and relationships and I think perhaps the situation with your D coming up as it has was that test for you and B. Your ways of dealing with things are very different - neither of you are wrong, you're just different.
I get the sense of being alone. It is tough. But I am still hoping there is a Mr Hops out there somewhere who is more on your wavelength and who would kind of be in sync with who you are a little bit more. xx
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Interesting about your shoulders Hops. That's something I do, to the point I've pre-booked monthly massages. There really is such a thing as being too different (sum total) to be able to be together. And it's not about empathy, or even basic values (although that contributes to the total). But in this case, that wasn't the real issue.
The real issue is he felt he was able to define, decide, shape just how you should be... to make the relationship work for him. Never quite grokked that you have an equal right to that, or even that you might want it. Doesn't matter, most of the time, if you both have different needs and wants. It's that understanding of "it takes two"... and neither one being more important (or in charge) than the other.
You accepted that he is who he is; and while you didn't really want to change him... you did your level best to explain why that was a problem for you, gently... and while the "data" got through to his brain, it never penetrated any deeper than that. Which is why you continued to get emails, and continued to stress out over the most recent "thing". That just increased your emotional awareness that maybe he wasn't the right one... and it wasn't going to be possible for you to make any more space to accommodate that about him.
IT SHOULDN'T BE THAT DIFFICULT. Really and truly. And when it is, at our age, it's better to throw that fish back... and try again. These guys can be great people in and of themselves, but that doesn't mean they're a good fit for you, me or Holly. Those guys are still out there. Looking for you - and maybe you'll find them first.
And I fully believe you should feel "anticipation" instead of "anxiety" over the next time you spend time with a guy. The anxiety is your early warning radar that you can't be what this guy wants, without selling yourself out. You shouldn't have to choose.
Amber's bottomline:
You should be comfortable and relaxed enough to spend time together in fuzzy pants & robe: without putting on a "public face", cleaning up the dishes, tidying the house and vacumning... and babbling out the stuff in your head without editing it first. Everything else is up for experimentation, exploration and negotiation. I guess this has evolved watching the course of your journey... listening to Holly's trials & tribs... and my own tentative steps in this direction.
It shouldn't take more than a few months to know if you can relax to that point with someone. That's the chemistry part that doesn't sit still to be analyzed or defined. LOL.
-
We'll, hops....you gave it your best shot.
And it WAS good practice.......
such good information....a probe of sorts.
A mission. Discovery. What do you need, and what can you live without?
I'm the kind of girl who can lead with valuable information on a first date.....a sort of mental "this is me naked this is me dressed" rundown of absolutes.
Sure, that didn't work out well for me.....but both parties have to be telling the truth, IMO. IF you can have a meeting of the minds on big stuff, perhaps the rest will follow.
When ready, Get out there, meet people, practice discernment....betting economy if motion kicks in with practice too.
:: Nodding::.
More information is good information for future possible relationships. You're very special.... you deserve someone who appreciates you for who you are. You deserve to be comfortable in your skin.
This guy was unaware...... unable to focus on anything but his own little selfish baby man needs.
I imagine his wife felt very alone in her struggle to be heard, and appreciated in that marriage.
B's unable to do better, it he would have, IME.
Sorry.
Lighter
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I just spent a couple of hours re-reading all 18 pages of this thread.
What hits me is that, with my monster-brother, I spent most of my childhood absolutely LONGING for a sister. Then, until high school, I was bullied and/or ostracized by most of the girl packs. Unaccountably, I went off to an all-female college where for the first time, I was loved (and liked!) by my peers. That changed my life. And accounts for the truly massive gratitude I have felt ever after for the friendship of women.
And here? I am experiencing that college joy again, but with grown-up women, with lifetimes of experiences, struggles and obviously SUCH deep and insightful thinking. (More than seems available IRL, with the exception of two thinker-friends.)
If I could could I would make each of you one thousand muffins. I mean muffins that would taste like divine eternity food, make you live forever moving like ballerinas, and put hair on your chests. Well, not that.
Thank you.
From the heart,
Hops
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Hugging you back Hops. But I don't need any more hair where it's not supposed to be, thanks very much. LOL.
Big day today - in a "just for me" way. I'll blab all about it in the farm thread.
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Y'all are going to wanna scream at me.
But B called, long gentle talk (neither of us angry) and he asked if I'd do a few sessions of counseling with him.
We agreed we might decide to wind up as just friends or if it really gives perspective that we can work with such huge differences, could try again after a cooling-off-the-romantic-stuff period.
The main reason I said okay is that he said he was wrong to say things he said and he also said he's been told by other people that he tends to be controlling and he owned it. I thought that was positive and so, why not.
I'm still thinking we'll just get more clarity about how deep the differences are. I do not want a huge tense project of a relationship. As Amber said, it should not be this difficult, especially in this chapter of our lives.
But he was so willing and so clearly eager to do whatever he could that I felt safe agreeing to a few sessions. No commitment beyond that, and the worst that could happen is we both learn something valuable that we'll use either together or separately as we move forward on our own.
Hope it's not crazy to do. Doesn't feel crazy. But it may be.
love
Hops
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Nope; not crazy. Neither of you wants to be alone; you're at least familiar with each other now. But there's a little bit more space for each of you to figure out if you CAN be a couple now - and it's good he wants to go to counseling. He's smart; he may not be able to control his "controlling reflex"... but maybe he can learn to recognize it & manage it better and understand that other people don't like to be controlled at that level... and it's in no way a threat to him or reflection on him for people to be themselves and "unmanaged" by others.
You have to make Hops' decisions. Not B; not us; not anyone but you. So, you'll have to decide if it's going to be possible to be together without it being so difficult on a regular basis.
There is a time to acquiesce to the partner's wishes... and a time to stand up for yourself and refuse. Those times are different with different partners. But the continued anxiety and the inability for you to relax and trust... aren't something inherent in you. He is giving you cause to hang back. And there needs to be equity of giving space... and giving trust/intimacy... for the relationship to grow and deepen. A deep understanding that one person isn't always "in charge" of a relationship is a pre-requisite.
This is the difference between "playing nice" and one person dominating. It should look familiar, as much as we've studied boundaries.
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Thank you, Amber. I agree with every word.
I see it as two anxieties triggered by each other. Could become such a toxic cycle if we don't each manage them.
His is OCD plus entitlement (nearly a guarantee after his life story). But in there, he's quite sensitive.
Mine is fear of enmeshment or domination. I am wary but willing (for the counseling try).
I guess another reason I figure it's worth doing is I do care about him. This could be big for him if he goes for it.
And for me too, as in calmly speaking my truth to a towering male can never be bad for a woman to practice, eh?
We'll see. Thank you for not being annoyed!
love
Hops
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Not annoying, Hops.
Just interested in how T works out. You'll have more information.
Useful any way it goes; )
Lighter
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OK... I'm having a thought here.
Remember I posted about my mother, and my step father's relationship?
They started out with him being pretty much in charge, with her doing most of the heavy lifting. That eventually shifted, and he had his hands full of my mother standing her ground, hands on hips....
and he absolutely adored her for it.
Now, he didn't understand that at first. He didn't adore it either. It came to be what he loved about her, as much as everything else that drew them together. They'd spat like children, and then be just fine afterwards.
The important thing was... they got everything OUT, and over with. No grudges, or ill feelings when they went to bed, kwim?
The other important thing was they cared about each other as much as they cared about themselves. There was mutual respect, and it lasted heir entire 30 year marriage.
Mom always said husband #2 was "trainable."
In her opinion.... that was very important.
Something to think about.
Lighter
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Lighter, that sounds like my cliche joke... that dogs are easier to housebreak than men. LOL.
We all look for different things from relationships. One thing my long grieving process has revealed, is that what I LONG for most, in my lonliest and self-pityingest moments is the companionship and intimate connection with someone who cares about me. It's not a guy's superior upper body strength (LOL), romance or sex, or even the interests in common (although that's a functionally useful thing)...
it's knowing I can stand-down, completely collapse into a fetal ball of total dependency... still be cared for (without being picky about HOW)... for however long it takes for me to regain my equilibrium... and then be turned loose to do my independent, bull-headed "thing" again. Mike used to say: I don't know what to do; what do I say? But he intuitively knew that just holding me until it passed was exactly the right thing to do. Or the little things... like the silly bunny hat (that of course I still have!)
It's a real scary thing for a lot of guys who like the challenge of a "strong-willed, difficult woman"... to see us collapse. But it's like the seawall description... we have to let the forces hitting us flow right on through... bend, instead of break. Sometimes that requires we are protected and cared for during those times.
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These are SUCH good things to think about, right now. Thanks, both of you.
I am so fearful of anger (feel poisoned within minutes) that even a "spat" like children leaves me sickened for days. I don't think that's healthy of me, but it's long-term true. Probably a leftover from early experiences of being bullied.
I hope to get clarity on whether and how much change may be possible for B. (Much less me.) I sense his wiring is indeed HARD wired. But I've been impressed in the past by the intensity of his efforts to listen and then do something differently. Somehow this time when I hit Eject I let go of that faith. Partly because I was newly raw over my D, and his tone deaf reactions around that time made me feel abandoned with deep pain. And partly because I would not want to have to BE in conflict for him to notice, get it, and self-regulate. Because that would mean pain and confrontation, followed by B catching up, repeat.
I hope he's SELF-trainable because I truly don't have the emotional strength to do that. He compared me to a therapist in our recent talk and I instantly said, I don't want to be your therapist. (It's exhausting and because of how he processes things, very laborious. I want to write my novel.)
I did imagine what it'd be like to try to draw a better boundary around his OCD stuff, his elaborate and over-detailed planning for very minor things. Like, on Saturday he wanted to talk about how we could go to X to eat after the therapy appt. on Tuesday. Not a crime of course but for some irrational reason I recoil. He's always three steps ahead, has an intense need for an agenda and itinerary for every time together. ESPECAILLY about food. It's suffocating. I'd rather finish the appt, check in on what we each feel up to, and decide then.
Anyway, if he could understand how draining his compulsive detailed planning is for me, and if we could agree that he doesn't need to involve me in processing all of that together, we'd be better off. He mentioned that he has a hard time with no specific plans. I told him I'd like sometimes to just say come on over around 4 Saturday, we can just hang out, mess in the yard, watch something, eat out or in. Let's just decide then. That is excruciating for him, evidently. But my ADD brain needs to wander free at times, especially on days off, and that's my own hard wiring.
I bring unhelpful stuff to our issues as well. Just more differences between us. But I'm beginning to look forward to the conversation with a good couples T.
One silly bit of "evidence" I'll be mentioning is that even though I was very happy in general about building a relationship with B, one fact is that I've GAINED weight since meeting him. That's not my usual MO if I'm happily attracted. And to me it seems clear it's been stress eating.
More soon, gotta head for Ngent, bless his also-obsessive heart. We have to talk for 40 minutes about his decision to allow me to purchase a new set of Twin sheets for him, as the old set doesn't fit his mattress and is a pain to make.
love
Hops
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Hops:
My mother was an obsessive planner.... and she'd do it waaaaay ahead..... that was her MO. Always.
Then, when it was time for the plan to execute I was always caught off guard.... flat footed, bc I had little kids, or other plans, or was sick, or didn;t remember and would rather DO something else... sometimes very much resented getting herded all the darned time without getting to think about what I'd actually like... what would make me FEEL OK...... and you're right... sometimes we can't know till we're at the point of making plans. The fact I was a people pleaser didn't help my cause. My needs were never considered...... what I wanted wasn't factored in. When I spoke, I had no voice. Perhaps you have some memory of that, and it's still very present in your head? I think it certainly was for me.... likely still is.
Planning ahead works out some of the time, but not all of the time, and we're circling back to more balance, I think. There has to be some comfort for everyone. God only knows we can't make Sunday brunch plans around a holiday the day before. Some things absolutely require planning. I get that, but my brain resists... squirms..... resents the planner's efforts. I realize I have little rituals around planning things.... things I DO in order to get in the right frame of mind.... details in other areas of my life that make me FEEEEEL OK..... make it possible to focus on whatever that plan IS. I have to ask for the space, and time to find and complete those things. It's not something I can put into words, so I ask for space, and silence.... for time. I don't really feel a need to explain it beyond that, frankly.
In the end.... I've become better at planning, and trained the remaining planners in my life a bit.... just my being more proactive makes them less compulsive, IME.
And I agree with your not wanting to be a T in your relationship. In a past relationship I was told I needed to manage my partner..... keep him in line.... stand up to him.....tell him when he was out of line..... it was never going to happen, bc I feel the way you do. I'm allergic to conflict, and that will never be the kind of person I can BE with. Ever.
In that relationship my partner was angry at my silences. Super angry at my honesty.... I was in a double bind, without solutions. After I ended the relationship he admitted he was at fault, asked if I could help him, but it was too late, and I wasn't interested in figuring him out any longer.... certainly not interested in fixing him.... was quite certain I could not, and the interest evaporated after 2 years of being blamed, criticized, and eventually emotionally terrorized. My part in that was allowing the first transgression to go by without stating a boundary, and consequence...... following through if I saw a whisp of the same behavior. I should have ended that relationship the first time he went a bit bizzerko.... instead I shut down, with him eventually bringing up my silence. It was strange TO HIM. People who can stand their ground, draw a boundary, state a consequence without adrenal fatigue are lucky, IMO. I'd like to be more like that, BUT for the times I was punished for my honesty, and now have brain pathways that fear being punished/and terrorized for my honesty.
I'm not sure how my mother's marriage went with all that healthy hashing out. Obviously she had a much higher tolerance for conflict, and truthfully.... I do believe it was healthy to have discussions without shattering or having to rock over a disagreement. I've stood my ground, and been assertive.... made huge statemements about myself that could be considered a challenge on a date, and not felt a blip of anxiety around it. IT'S WHEN THERE'S A CONNECTION... when I'm attached to someone and they OUT OF THE BLUE go nutso on me that I start floundering. That I have trouble stating a boundary. Enforcing a consequence. I'm good at walking away WHEN I CAN WALK AWAY, and have done it many times. It's when there's a contract.... when there's children... when there's emotional or physical violence that I come out of my skin, and fall apart. When someone has been good enough, long enough that I freeze, and become confused, opposed to calling it what it is, and going about my business. Attachment is the fulcrum, IMO. My expectations..... learning how to adjust them, and not go into denial. Honestly, I think I've swung too far past that. I think my expectations are so low now that I can't imagine allowing anyone in.... really. It signals risk, and danger, and that's not healthy either Hops. For you or for me.
I'd like more for both of us.
I'm too sensitive to conflict..... but that doesn't mean I have to invite conflict into my life, or learn to live with conflict on a regular basis. Back to balance, managing expectations, and inviting people into my life who can have discussions without angry outbursts.... I just think that's an absolute deal breaker for me.
I would like to just deal with normal stuff without emotional escalation into unhealthy territory when disagreements come up. I'm great at honest discussion..... I have to say that. Not so great at handling other people's inappropriate outbursts. I must come up with automatic responses...... walk away.... state boundaries around their outburst, and agree to come back later when they can be appropriate. That should be something I train into my reptilian brain.
I think I'm a very courteous person.... even when I hear things that make me angry.... I try to be respectful, and I try to be. I want the same courtesy.... I suppose I should demand it.
::eek::
Demand.
::sigh::
I've just finished dealing with customs people.... they don't take Discover, and the charge on my credit card didn't go through.. that was the reason for their calls. All that freaking out, and everything seems to be OK. I built it up in my mind... assumed my card was declined bc they SAID it was.... why do I DO that?
The tendency to catastrophize is a THING for me. Maybe it is for you too, Hops.
I don't know how to circumvent it, outside asking myself if this THING is the truth. I can't know it's the truth until I get to the bottom of it so I shouldn't assume the worst.
New brain pathways are a very difficult thing to put in place. It's very difficult, but well worth the time, IME.
I hope this long ramble is helpful, Hops.
It's helped me: )
Lighter
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VERY helpful, Lighter. Thank you.
I especially zinged to your sense of needing time to process and ponder a plan, while the rabid-planner is all ready to foist it on you and jerk it into motion. It's maddening for me because I feel the same way...not that a particular B-plan is always worth being fussed about. It's the sense of missing space, and our out of sync pace, that drains me.
Especially this:
sometimes very much resented getting herded all the darned time without getting to think about what I'd actually like...
What's helped a lot about your post is its great descriptiveness. I can share that kind of description of my own feelings, my way of processing -- mainly my way of ENJOYING free time. And then B can talk about his, and maybe the T will have new ideas.
As I mentioned though, I do not want an arduous project of a relationship at this time of my life. Sure, I'm willing to work at it, any new thing takes work. But I don't yet know how serious or powerful B's OCD stuff is. And need to.
With more info, I'll have more capacity. But for now, we're visiting the T to see what happens. I know B wants it to mean we're "back on track" as a couple. I'm looking at it as, I'm open and curious but not committed.
And thank god I haven't slept with B yet. I knew my inner wisdom, insisting on going verrrrrrrrry slowly, was right for me.
Hugs
Hops
PS I also loved your distinction about the difference between being clear and assertive up front (I find that easy too) versus after a connection is formed. That makes SO much sense to me. So much more vulnerable after hopeful bonding....much more painful to assert. SHOULDN'T be, though. That's something I want to understand.
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Hops:
I think you're on track to answer many questions you have with the T.
IF the T isn't an asshat, or a cheerleader, or....
hooooowwww did you guys find this T?
You don't want to go to one of B's friends, and have two people trying to convince you what you need to do, kwim? Old guys have many friends, and they like to refer each other... GO to each other. It's nuts, but I've seen it again and again.
And.....
I am shocked at how poorly so many people handlle the word NO.... or anything that doesn't agree with their opinion. Just shocked. SO. Many. Of. Them.
By the time I met my second husband I was all... "I don't want anyone pawing at me all the time, I'll consider sex X number of times a week, and I don't want to be bugged about it PERIOD, and I feel this way about X and that way about Z" and on and I on went.... so very clear about so many things, and there was no strangenes... I mean... I told him my flat out TRUTH, and he was welcome to walk out the door, and leave me with the dinner bill. I just didn't care at that point.
So, THAT beginning begs the question... how did I end up a prisoner in my own home, and life?
HE WAS A LYING LIAR with zero integrity, and less empathy...... he was a sociopath. How did that get by me?
The truth is... it didn't. I KNEW KNEW KNEW KNEW KNEW... my intuition was spot on, and my truth just gave him more information with which to scheme and build elaborate lies on.
The trick is to NOT get confused, but SEE the truth as it comes. When we don't want to know the truth... we get confused. Once we set expectations... our judgement can be impaired.... I think.
It's how much we NEEEEEEEED something.... how difficult it is to walk away, and say goodbye....... that's when things get tricky.
Honestly... I think honesty is very attractive.... on anyone. On myself, particilarly. I like ME more when I'm very honest.
I also like myself a lot more when I don't put myself into positions where I'm being held hostage.
My children aren't being held.... I want a world where people aren't being held hostage, but it's never going to happen.
Unrealistic expectations..... they kill joy and potential for joy, IMO. '
We must hone our discernment, ladies. Trust our instincts.... stop questioning and doubting.
Lighter
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Thank you Lighter!
This is what I've been trying to get across to Holly. But because of the constant criticism of how she understands and feels about things... she doubts the reality of her own thoughts & perceptions & feelings. Makes mom a little crazy, over-protective and belligerant.
But, I do see the need for her to get through this process on her own - without me on one shoulder & Matt on the other. So I've just told her, she has ALL the tools and skills necessary to make her own decisions, and I refuse to make her the rope in a tug of war. She hasn't heard yet, that I'm not likely to trust Matt again. She doesn't need that in the mix.
My viking shared something with me, that I'm chewing over anyway. I'm not entirely sure how much it speaks to his personality... or is just one of those things he warned me might scare me about him. Fortunately there is still a lot of space for me to decide if I do/don't like this... and it may just be a little bit of male strutting - testosterone games. Role playing; and not really who he is... but the information is tucked away for future reference, in case it's more "essence of being" than I think at the moment.
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I hope Holly can lean into trusting herself..... figuring out what her initial instincts were..... KNOWING how right she was, and can always be.
About the viking...
come.
On.
Tell tell tell....
honestly.... I think he's telling you who he really is. Whatever it was.
Believe him.
L>ighter
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Thank you, Lighter. Your thoughts on relationships inspire me and scare me. Both are good.
I saw my T yesterday and he "prepped" me for the couples counselor (later today and I'm nervous) by saying I had three goals: 1) to find out how deep B's control habit goes (OCD or otherwise), 2) to find out whether he can learn to deal with strong emotion or pain (we figured out that he "hides" in managing), and I forget the third, dammit.
On my way out I asked what he knew about the couple-T I'd found (through a friend, not from B) and he mentioned he thinks he's "Christian." Worries me deeply (as to sexism, male privilege unseen, all that--terrible memory of a Christian counselor who urged me into a disastrous marriage because of his discomfort with my sexual independence). So for my own sake, one of the first things I'll say today is that it's important to me that counseling be secular and that any religious perspective be transparent. Now I'm very concerned I suggested the wrong T to B (who made the appointment).
But it'll probably go well. My friends who see that counselor like him very much. And my T said the guy is "good at what he does." He's probably not one of those "the man is the head of the house" people. If he is, I'm gone.
There's no perfect safety anywhere. I'm going to show up and tell the truth.
love
Hops
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Hops:
Being true to yourself is a good thing.
Especially in a world where nothing is perfect...... good things have to be enough.
Take our filters with you.
Good luck.
Lighter
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Couples-T turned out to be very nice, no hint of evangelism, and he's written a mature (science-based) book on RET (rational emotive therapy) for couples, has taught counseling at the university, and has had a 35-year career. We all got along and I was particularly pleased for B because this T has an athletic background and has also done a lot of corporate counseling. Neither of those experiences appeal to me but they overlap with B's life so I thought there was a nice connection for them. We have homework in the book to do and B emailed me that he's excited about it. We shall see but I'm glad to be doing this (one week at a time).
Our intros were pretty good. Mine a history, B's a step-by-step narrative of how we met and what he said and what I said and then and then. The T seemed enthusiastic about working with us. Said his "passion" is creative writing, so that's a connection for me. All I care about is empathy...figuring out if B has enough and likewise the T, to imagine/understand some of my experience. It'll help to know.
Today (couple hours, gotta pack!) we head for our Real Long Wknd. My favorite city with more reunions with friends, then the shore where B and his wife lived for years. Their friends we'll stay with are an an engineer and his artist wife, so that's encouraging! I'm looking forward to it.
May be offline for a couple days or pecking away under the covers on the Ipad at 4am.
xxxooo
Hops
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I'm glad the T seemed like a balanced kind of a person, Hops. I remember seeing a hospital psychologist years ago who was so peculiar that I started to wonder if one of the patients had escaped and nicked a white coat and a clipboard :) It helps when the person in front of you seems okay :) I hope the weekend away goes well and look forward to hearing about it when you get back xx
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At least it wasn't a complete bollocks, Hops.
Sounds kind of promising, actually: )
Lighter
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How was your weekend trip Hops? You sure had nice weather for it!
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Weekend was great!
First night we spent with the publisher of my first book (poetry) in her family's huge old place near my university...she was (at nearly 80) her enchanting self, and the whole time was magical. I was so moved to be with her again. Major mentor in my writing life, and one of the most generous souls I've ever known. She never met a writer she didn't encourage, and her support buoyed me in a permanent way. I adore her. And she was smitten with B (has always adored men). Kept muttering things to me about him, like (my fav), "Staggeringly handsome!". Cracked me up.
B was dear and solicitous of her and lovely to all my friends, as usual.
Funny thing happened. On the way to the restaurant to me a couple I hold very dear and hadn't seen for 15 years, we passed the fabulous art museum (used to live across the way and spent many hours in rapt poet-spaced-out joy there) and I actually choked up just at the sight of that building. Then when I saw my long-lost gf at the restaurant (mother of my own D's best friend and aware of much that's happened, seeing her own Ds photo laid me out again) I hugged her and just started crying. Had to go to the loo to compose myself. Finally blurted out to her, "This was the last place I was truly happy." It was bittersweet but so lovely, beyond lovely, to be in that place and with those dear people again. Her hubby picked up the tab for all five of us, which shocked me. Warn't cheap!
B had wild boar. He was a bit stunned at the surroundings I think. Sophisticated in a way your average high-end golf club isn't! I took two huge hanging baskets (petunias, a cool hybrid blue stripey one). One for my publisher, which she reacted to like a new adopted baby, even given that she has a sun porch jammed with plants...and one for B's friends.
Next day we went to the shore to stay with them for two nights -- a verrry eccentric couple. She a glass artist and he a fine carpenter. Huge rambling house that was a wing added, then another wing...etc. It was jammed with objects and art and sculptures to the point of claustrophobia (and don't get me, or my lungs, going on the dust...). But we had a sort of upstairs apartment to ourselves in the last wing and it was fine. They were kind and welcoming and lively and she cooked something fierce. I was touched and happy to connect so well with them. She and I hopped into her convertible and went into the little village where her art is part of a store's display. It was just fun. I picked up on some martial tension with them and hope they can resolve it, as folks like that don't come around every day.
She shared a few stories about B and his wife (for whom she had a lot of sympathy...controlling was the issue B's wife wrestled with too). She also said how much they cared for B and how delighted they were with me, so that was mighty sweet. I'm sure if I stay with B we'll be friends too.
We went to look at B's old place, which was unoccupied. Beautiful stone house right on the river, and B felt melancholy about how his painstaking landscaping had been either undone or neglected by the next owner. I was glad to be on the spot of such a big chapter in his life and it clearly meant a lot to him to tour me around and show me so much of it. Lovely area, remote, wooded, lovely homes, etc.
On the way home we yakked it up and he surprised me by asking some questions about Aspergers, and said he thought (or had heard a T say, I don't recall) that he might be somewhat that way. That made a lot of sense to me. I asked kindly, "Do you think you sometimes miss some social cues?" and he said, Yes, I think so. That touched me and made me less impatient (internally) with his incredibly laborious storytelling. I talk and think at lightning speed and he tells a story with such slow deliberation that it tests me a lot. And this tidbit made me soften, find compassion and patience. So I'm glad we had such a long stretch of road time that it allowed that to come out.
All in all a very good experience that left me feeling more hopeful. B started telling me how much he'd like to return to the UK (he was there as an Air Force cadet) and it wasn't hard to fantasize being on a trip like that....
Thanks for asking!
love
Hops
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That sounds really nice, Hops, it sounds like a great weekend and so glad to read that you were able to reconnect with some good friends and people you hadn't seen for a long time (and meet some new people, too!). It sounds lovely, I'm glad it all went well for you both xx
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Well OK then! LOL.
Both of you revisiting past lives and sharing with each other in a way that brought it to life. The inquiry and curiosity about Aspergers. All good signs of a real connection. Lots of high-functioning Aspies have had to learn about social functioning... and it always looks a little awkward; gawky. What people don't often "get" is that the degree of aspie-ness can be so very minor that it's unnoticable in some people. Looks like controlling and OCD-ness, sometimes.
Put those people into a stress situation - particularly socially - and kaabamm - it flares up. Or strong emotion is another one. It's POSSIBLE, that this might've been behind the uncomfortable car making out situation. He was so carried away with what he was feeling - he wasn't picking up your reticence - because the feeling flooded him and blotted out sensibility to everything else.
But then, I see "aspie" as huge continuum; a "tendency" rather than a condition that is all cut & dried definable. Kind of like sense of humor. Some people are just naturally funny... others of us can "be in the mood"... or have to work at it. This babbling, is trying to say, that I think all people can exhibit aspie "symptoms" at various times in specific situations.
I'll shut up now. That's close enough I think you'll understand what I'm trying to say.
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Well, Hops... I cried through the meeting you had with the other mother at the restaurant.
So very touching, and poignant to go back to places and people.... we enjoyed happier times.
I'm glad you connected with friends and loved ones on that trip.
It sounds like you had a wonderful adventure.
Lighter
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Thanks, guys.
It was so good to be able to come here and share the whole tale.
Been some ups and downs since but I'm hanging in.
We've been to the counselor 3 times and he's not bad, we'll decide in the next 2 weeks whether to stick with him. (He flogged his book at us pretty hard, two in fact, and wasn't very straight about it. But the info has been useful. I think B is responding. Sometimes it hits me that I'm sitting there with two tall, successful males, and wonder how well they'll be able to understand my experience.)
We did get some deeper clarity this time, and stayed connected. When we work at it (and oh work we will have to) we treat each other respectfully, are open, and that's touching. B's biggest irritation is lack of intimacy. I get it, I know it's not the current model. But I explained to them I have baggage around rushing in and that just like in past generations, I will give myself a slow courtship or be at peace with none. He backed off, said later "I don't know why I think about sex so much." I get it, I told him, it's natural. We're just coming at it from different places....
My biggest irritation is his compulsive planning, but the session yesterday got me to realize that sometimes I interpret things B says as controlling (and they are) and other times similar things he's saying are an attempt to be considerate or helpful. I react like a porcupine to his "suggestions" because they feel paternalistic. For example, he said, I don't think I should bring up a heavy issue in therapy without warning Hops about it first. I said, please, blindside away. You don't need to protect me from whatever is true, just please speak. The prickly part was "you don't need to protect me." It turned out he just wanted to say to the counselor, what evidence do I have that this will all work out, or that our issues will get better? Easy. Counselor said, none.
I have a hard time relaxing into B's "protection" because it morphs so easily into controlling. But he does own that.
Another issue I feel guilty for describing. I need to ask myself how capable I am of being patient. B is soooooooooooooooo slow at times. (I actually read that one wee trait of some people who are Aspie-ish is walking slowly! I've noticed that repeatedly with B. The man plays raquetball, but walking with him feels like we're on the Gallapagos.) But the killer (for me, writer me) is his story telling. He includes EVERY he said, then I said, then the person walked into the room, and he sat down, and he said to the other person...............
A private guilty screeeeeeeeeeeeem builds up in my head. Instead I breathe and remind myself that B is teaching me patience and that compassion is my biggest value. Fail.
More later, just a glimpse of what I'm chewing on.
xo
Hops
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And there it is. Trust issues. Yours and his... coming at it differently.
Or maybe I'm seeing it through my own lens here; dealing with the subject on many levels right now.
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AAAAAHHH I had a conversation this morning with someone who spent all the time we had on the phone REPEATING things I already knew. Then defending what he said... every darned word he said, but failing to SAY what the other person said, which was something I didn't know.
And then we were out of time, and I was short and snippy when I cut him off..... "Im not listening anymore, I have 3 things to do before I walk the kids out the door to school."
And he hung up on me.
For me, I'd prefer if he could just get to the point. I fired X, bc of Y and Z. My plan going forward is to hire F and J, but it's not clear who will be doing what, or how much it will cost. I'll keep you updated.
DONE.
MY face is pressed up to the glass on this issue right now. I can only empathize, and say YES..... this does teach patience. I struggle with knowing everyone is doing their very best, and remembering my own imperfections..... I want consideration and patience, right? Yup.
::sigh::.
Lighter
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I hear y'all.
The Aspieness does feel like OCD + controlling.
Hard part is separating out the big bossy paternalism.
He feels a compulsion to "approve" or "disapprove" which is triggering.
If it were just plain "this is how I see it" stuff it'd be easier but he couches it in judgement. Aaagghh.
There's a kind of sweet Boy Scout inside the Runaway Executive.
Easy to love the scout, not easy to love the exec.
His sense of being the authority on everything is irritating.
At the same time, he's lovely to everyone we meet together.
Except maybe for restaurants. If he's not served Just Right, although he stays courteous, I can see his irritation build. He's got a LOT of issues about food...I think it's almost where all his buried stuff plays out. He does not eat well for a person with diabetes. Fast food on the trip and two milkshakes in one day....grossed me out.
But. For some reason at the moment I'm feeling more optimistic. I think it's because of the depth we go to when we have our Working Talks (calling them that instead of hard talks, though they are hard).
Tiny thing, y'all can advise. Looking at a menu, he instantly starts suggesting things I can eat. (Since I don't eat meat.) I know he thinks he's helping. I think he's managing. My inner response is irritation. I can read. I can choose my own food. I have been doing this for many years. Kindly pick your own dinner and don't "instruct" me about what's righth in front of my face. (No, I don't say it. But the irritation's real and I dunno....dunno....)
Rambling and that's all for now, gotta dash.
Love you guys,
Hops
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The menu thing is one of those "irritations" that always exist between couples Hops. Mike's was when I asked him what he felt like eating - I dunno, what do you want? "I asked you FIRST. What do you want me to cook?" And back & forth it went. LOL.
So you can see he's trying to be helpful. People DO do that. I wonder if you could retrain your reaction some? It might help to respond: "ummmm hmmm... I'm looking and will figure it out in a minute." That will give him a definite "cue" that you don't need help... and maybe stop it being more of irritating thing, other than just "meal chit-chat". He might NEED the cue to know that this is "fair warning" that you don't need him to role-play parent about your food.
A lot of things that irritate the crap out of us by our male partners are seen by us as being something they are not really being, when those things are associated with something way past irritating in our pasts. It's almost impossible for them to understand and accept that being "triggered" is a real thing. So, maybe the word "sensitive" will get through... maybe. To guys, stuff that happened to us ages ago, shouldn't still be a problem for us NOW... because they're not that person; it was a long time ago; we should be "over it" by now. Because that kind of thing is EASIER for them. (And maybe it's not really; but they tell themselves that.)
You could also just tell him, you have some unpredictable "food aggression" when people try to tell you what to eat. LOL.
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Oooo! I like this "unpredictable food aggression" idea!
Hmmm, what?
Leaping over the tablecloth and spearing his asparagus?
Making a sailboat out of my napkin and a butterknife and jumping on the table to say AAAARRRRRR like a pirate?
Blowing pinot noir out my nose?
I could distract myself with these fantasies....
And of course you're right. The mild response that doesn't take him up on his how-to-explain-a-menu-to-a-kindergartener offers.... Poifect. I shall.
We just had a very nice evening. Met friends at 4 on the amazing happy-place covered-with-cafes-and-musicians mall for drinks and dinner, and another close friend he hadn't met yet happened to call, and she was so near downtown I insisted she "stop talking and come right down here!" So he got to meet her and that made me very happy. She's a bit of a recluse because she was married to someone very famous and has social bruises leftover. Yet she came, they got along great and it was a good feeling.
Then B came back to my place and trimmed my redbud and we sat on my little uphill-corner extra patio-ish spot and just stared at my huge tree and a big set of clouds, enjoyed the peace. It's rough and ungardened and kinda embarrassing but my yard still has its loveliness. So peaceful and yet right in town. We even talked about potential additions to the house (ignoring possible implications) and that was fun too. He came in to watch a couple more episodes of Longmire, which I've hooked him on, and I pretended his moustache does not feel like a porcupine cheese grater combo, and so it went. Nice evening.
Happy spring (or where I am, the 5 minutes of spring before it becomes hot muggy summer). I felt SUCH ridiculous joy over the shrubs...I think because after a couple shrubs and veggie beds (well, the nice patio too) I didn't do anything more. Just felt burned out emotionally and withdrew from the dirt and the planting which actually makes me very very happy. Reconnected!
Gonna buy plants tomorrow and plant a few veggies and some flowers in pots. It'll do nicely. No B tomorrow as he's doing family stuff so I'll have the whole day to putter. Made laundry detergent tonight from my frugality recipe and sent him home with some to try. He called me "frontier woman."
xxoo
Hops
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LOL... "frontier woman".... I can imagine he'd be a little afraid of me then.
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Unspeakably terrified, is my guess.....
:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:
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::waving::
Hi Hope. I'm glad you're feeling better about the B. My one comment on the restaurant ordering .. just tell him you've got your own order. He's very kind to offer advice, but he may focus on his own with gusto.
I f he continues, maybe tell him you feel a bit like a kindy Gartner.....use humor, but make your point perhaps?
Lighter
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IMO, the best thing about trying to use humor, is that it defuses OUR reactions, that are referencing old wounds from a different time/place and people. Therefore avoiding a problem in the first place.
It's a truly difficult thing to deal with. We can only practice at it, I think. Stress, new emotional pain, fear, and simply being tired contribute to a lack of ability to practice. Yes I know, we're are who we are because of what we've been through. But other people are exactly the same. And if we let ourselves get triggered by new people, in new circumstances... exactly as we did in the past under different conditions... well, it's deja vu time and we get to relive the same emotional indigestion.
I continue to work on this a lot. I see Hol trying to, as well. Hopsie is surely doing the same. When it works to keep us from reliving the old reaction - that's as perfect as it gets. It's kinda like an on/off switch.
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I do enjoy fantasizing about if not pirate on tablecloth...maybe other fun rejoinders?
Got one!
Dear ole B starts explaining me the menu, like a helpful boyfriend does....so I say, Oh, if only I could read....
:lol:
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Good one Hops!
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My T and I stared at each other and said, "compatibility." Talking about B. There are ... things.
Two examples.
He's met 10 of my friends. Out of town important friends the first night they were here. I've met four of his friends: two married couples. So he tells me last week that 3 of his closest friends from the Academy (we're talking college days!) are coming and spending two nights and days (golf) with him. I think yay! Meeting guys he's known for so long! I ask. He demurs. Doesn't explain why. Finally he indicates that I would meet his friends "if they had their wives with them."
IOW, though I could easily come out for an hour to just say hello and enjoy a brew with them...I'm not welcome. I'm sorry but since they're all 73, my chances of meeting important old pals of his may be few.... and I loathe his explanation. Thing is, I understand that this may be his comfort zone but...I do not care. It's a sexist zone and makes me feel less than.
Next. He has one driven, ambitious, successful, remarkable grand-D who's very like him in that and finished college in 3 years. Her sister (last year of HS) is still home, during a period when her parents have separated and reunited, etc. Her Dad has PTSD. Her mom (as B's old neighbor told me anyway) is big on "tough love." So. They all come out to his area for dinner Saturday (I'm not included because B is "feeling awkward" around his family). Okay, I can see that's a pretty sensitive area and needs to be timed comfortably. Five months might be too soon.
But. He tells me about how his 2nd grandD (after describing the Marvellous Grand-D #1 at length). He goes, well she comes in and gives me a big smile and a big hug, but then she goes quiet. I ask her, "How's school? Are you having fun?" and she's got nothing to say. It irritates me." I ponder this later and realize, I TOTALLY identify with her. It's his poking to smile, to act cheerful whether you're feeling that way or not, and having a social script. I can imagine: "Yeah Grandpa! School's great! I'm really happy right now! Looky, see me smile!" He'd be totally happy with her faking it, Stepford style.
Grrrrr. I don't doubt for a second that he loves his "lesser" grand-D. But I can instantly imagine what it's like to be under his dominating, insistent scrutiny.
So on sexism grounds (can't meet his "unwived" friends and my feelings about his attitude toward his grand-D #2) ... I'm feeling sour about our chances today.
Not a decision moment, just observation, reflection, etc. And that's why I'm going so slowly....
xxoo
Hops
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uhhhhh.... this raises my hackles Hops.
Relationships are living things. Or at least in my experience they are. One person doesn't get to tell others how to behave, in order to please him or her. You enjoy the person for who they are; they SEE YOU... and allow you to see them. Hence, trust & intimacy. That waxes & wanes, granted.
I'm not talking about feminism or any of that way of defining male/female interactions.
It's being able to put yourself in the other person's shoes, and understand their being. Knowing that you aren't the end all be all "authority" on how anything is supposed to be... and then taking that leap of faith to "see what happens". Because affection means you see them for who they are; you enjoy them and being with them... not for what they can supply you, or how well they are "trainable" to pleasing you.
There are different reasons why people aren't capable of doing that in deeper relationships than the casual friendships, where a transactional interaction (I do this for you; you do this for me) is more reasonable. I don't have to spell those out to you.
I think I mentioned that after Mike, I've set a pretty high standard for some guy to meet, if we're going to be involved past the "dating" stage or initial getting to know you stage. I won't accept anything less than another human being who isn't looking to possess me, or make into something I'm NOT. I worked too damn hard to get where I am now... and if that seems to need "adjusting"... well, then, he's looking for someone who's not me.
I refuse to believe that men like that are all that rare.
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Yeah. Thanks, Amber.
I don't intend to demonize him and my hackles give me a headache if they stay up.
But still. The truth is his self-focused scripts and stuff, no matter what explains them, just wear me out. So on a simply practical level, I'm asking myself -- given how often this stuff happens, do I really want to continue down a path to a permanent commitment with someone who, intentionally or not, would just by being himself, wear me out?
I don't think so.
I'm holding back until we see the couples-T on Tuesday. But unless we experience a big turnaround then, I'm thinking that deep inside I know the answer.
Don't mean to give y'all whiplash in case I come back all smiles from another "good talk." That's possible, but this is where I am today.
Eternal thanks for putting up with it.
xxoo
Hops
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No doubt, reading your description triggers my own experience dataset. So my response is based on viewing things from that lens. I also heard similar from Holly just the night before. Her job on this current production ends in a week or so... and she was approached about taking another in DC. It's different work, and only temporary - 6 weeks or so. But it became an issue, because Matt said she never asked him how HE FELT about her taking this job. (And he's recently taken one that he didn't discuss or feel he needed to "ask permission" to accept... so....)
There are lots of explanations that exist outside of my own limited experience. So, I make no claims to it being accurate. But I really do have an issue with people who act as though other people exist only to serve their needs and be what they want them to be. No matter how pleasantlly that request or demand is delivered. I'm more likely to not resist if it's a sincere request based on caring about ME... than if it's merely: I don't like you this way.
Some relationships I believe, must have the space and security built into the structure to allow each participant the room to BE, and react and change/grow... and go through difficult things, without risking the existence of the relationship. Is that naive? Idealistic? Possibly.
But where there is enough of that then, it's way easier to live with the daily irritations that are simply a fact of life. For both people.
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Yes and yes. Thanks again.
Btw, my "yeah" was me making a depressed noise...not being dismissive of your post. Which was excellent. (Just in case...since we're here with little black squiggles and no eye contact, drat it!).
I didn't think your response was disproportionate at all, and your latest Matt tale is a perfect fit with the way I think B usually reacts. I must give B credit for effort because in a lot of situations, once I've explained something, he alters his behavior somewhat. But we all have built-in limits.
I think it was the grand-D story that really stuck a pin in me. I feel so badly for her, a child I've never met, and could instantly recognize the prodding and lack of empathy and irritable judgement from B.
My poet pal told me that at dinner last weekend, she watched micro-expressions of disapproval flicker over B's face. When her bf made a comment about something B didn't agree with, she said she was watching him closely. I found that interesting. And I trust her perceptiveness.
Oh well. I hope I've over-judged or perhaps over-reacted to all this. And maybe there will be a breakthrough in counseling. But I have a feeling it's just me coming out of a wishful daydream.
And...your comment about "space" got me thinking. I hope I'm not being selfish myself, as in not giving B enough space w/in "us" to figure out what hurts people he's close to. Or what hurts me. I think him making clear I wasn't welcome with both his family and three old friends in the same week kind of got to me. But maybe it isn't all about me either. I dunno.
I do think any person in a new-ish relationship (especially when I was trying to break up with him a month ago and we're now in counseling to figure out whether to be together)...would have every right to insulate their family from having hopes about someone new in his life. Likewise, maybe he has the same feeling about these old friends. But he didn't have it about his close friends on the Shore that we stayed with for two days/nights, which is inconsistent. Both of them made it super clear how much they liked me, which seemed to please him. In hindsight, maybe that's because it was okay to visit them because there was "a wife" for me to spend time with. I did and enjoyed her company. But it hadn't dawned on me until this thing with the Academy pals that he thinks that way. Socially, a woman has to be in the women pen, then she can be around. (Busted, but that's how I took it...)
I remember one night at dinner there when there was just a general lively conversation about all sorts of things and I was knowledgeable about a few of them. B looks over the table and says, I had no idea you knew so much about so many things. You've impressed me! The latter just somehow felt weird to me. As though an invisible word was "you've actually impressed me!"
I dunno. Maybe this is an Nspot of my own. The truth is, the way I felt about his compliment was not complimented. I just felt, ummm, do we need to alert the media that the woman you've been with for five months is demonstrating intelligence or being informed? And...(evil)...do I care that you're IMPRESSED? I felt as though he was Mr. Big patting me on the head, exec style.
But on the other hand I feel like I am an offended porcupine and that is ego or Nworse. So I worry.
love
Hops
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I'm drained.
Broke up with B.
Just couldn't face our next date in a few days w/o telling him how I feel, and realized once I was telling him that I really do believe it: the differences in worldview (especially in people-view) are Just Too Big.
It was a gentle, sad, painful conversation, in which neither of us blamed the other. I am grateful.
But drained....
Hops
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Hops, I could pontificate some more about my thoughts on relationships... and I probably will, but not right now.
Big hugs for now. Talk it out some. I know it's probably still all rolling around in your head. I don't think your ego/possible n-spots were at all at play here. It just felt wrong to you, to try to be what B was saying he wanted you to be... as if that's supposed to be the ticket into a relationship and all your dreams will come true... "if only" you could stop being you and be his version of you, instead. What you would be, if you met all his criteria, when, where and how he "requested" you be. All the time.
To me, that's a "not good enough as you are" message.
And I don't think any of us would think that "felt right".
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Thanks so very much, Amber.
It means a lot to let it rip here, truth.
I feel sad because B feels sad and I still love the well-intentioned, striving, try-so-hard guy. He really isn't a jerk. I think he just has such a deeply, deeply wired attitude of "I am the leader" that he doesn't catch on to how that in close relationships, especially with females or at least this fearful/feisty one, acting like the general isn't the positive the very same behavior was in athletics, the Air Force, or the Pentagon or the executive suite.
I think that's it. He has his inner limitations on controlling that part of himself, and it's partly because he's a victim of his own success. He threw himself into being successful (by acquiring power and leadership roles and leaping into serving with all his heart whatever noble organization he was steeped in) from boyhood on, and when women and girls around him become unhappy, he can't connect the dots. I know he suffers over this. And I don't blame him, it makes perfect sense.
So we have the good-hearted dominating general, and the over-sensitive poet feminist who can't help feeling hurt and we're just...not a mix. Not for the long haul, I think. And it's sad we can't because we both were lonely and we both tried very hard to build a bridge we could live on.
I miss him. His snuggly sweet domestic side that my pooch knows is just the nicest Pillsbury Doughboy.
But ... Patton keeps popping up and running the tanks over feelings. Not even on purpose, just his nature. And I don't seem capable of changing my nature either. Sensitive + resistant. Ooof.
:(
Hops
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I'm feeling better.
At peace and relieved.
Very sad I have made B sad.
Sent him a message that if it'd help at all
for closure, glad to meet once more with the T.
But I don't expect him to take me up on it.
I just felt a whole lot of tension ebb away.
And my irises are going absolutely nuts out
front, really beautiful.
This was a very good experiment with B and I'm
glad we went for it. I have learned a lot and feel
grateful, not bitter. We're just not the right fit.
Thanks everybody, for holding my hand during this
very long thread!
love,
Hops
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Goodness! Of course we'd hold your hand, as many times as you've held ours... and the back & forth you went through seems par for the course, not crazy at all. Can't think of any more important a decision to make for oneself. I don't think there's a happy medium really, between over-analyzing something this important and just blindly jumping in throwing caution to the wind. (Well, there is... but not even I have over-analyzed it enough to figure out just what it is... LOL.)
maybe.............. it's just as simple as whether you feel happy most of the time. And whether the things that feel unhappy... are important enough to you, that they would grow over time into serious resentment and unhappiness?
Dunno. My viking evaporated after I said I didn't really like the music he shared with me. I just don't go in for angry, hateful at the world, testorone-filled noise. I don't imagine he'd like my folk music either. But that seems like a pretty superficial "must have criteria" doesn't it?
C'est la vie...
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Thanks, Amber. Such incredible support.
I think you're right. Definitely there were happy times, but B and I ran on different current. I'm becoming convinced that in most cases, hard wiring is more powerful than nurture and as a youngun, that wouldn't have occurred to me. I thought the rest was romance novels.
I think I would've become chronically sad because of it. And it's not his fault. I just don't have enough carapace to let those (to me, loaded) things keep bouncing off. It's a shame, because what's good was lovely. But no point pretending. Pretending got me into two miserable marriages and I still would like to end my life in a happy, connected one, should the fates allow.
A Viking who prefers head-banging, mean music to Amber is wearing a toy plastic helmet, sheltering not enough brains. Actually, kind of a great reveal, imo. I'm sorry he didn't turn out to be a grownup but hope you don't regret the experiment.
love,
Hops
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I'm sorry things haven't worked out Hops but I think you're right when you say you and B run on different currents. But you can be certain that you absolutely gave it your best shot and, as Skep says, you went about it all in exactly the right way. And things have ended calmly, respectfully, warmly, even - much better to acknowledge what's what at this stage than, as you say, realise further in (when commitments are deeper) and you can't even stand being in the same room together. Big hug coming your way.
(((((((((((((((((((((Hops)))))))))))))))))))))))) xx
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Thanks, ((((Tupp))).
I really appreciate your kind heart, so much.
I am actually feeling pretty good.
Although that may have something to do with bourbon.
Still, it does not feel tragic.
I miss B. I do recognize there is real love in my heart for his vulnerable-boy side.
But I also feel SUCH relief that I know it was the right decision.
I hope he'll be okay. I truly think it's hardest on him. I was always more independent.
With you Amazons' encouragement, I know I will be okay.
Plus, the irises. And friends.
xxxxxxoooooo
Hops
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I know the aftereffects are normal. Noticing I feel un-anchored, a little anxious. It was NICE, despite all the tensions, to know that somebody expected/wanted to see me a couple times a week. But the incompatibilities were too big for us.
What I'd really like to do is not revert to my old pattern of regularly terrorizing myself with frightened thoughts about my future. How do I know I won't die easily in my sleep on day and never face the old-age poverty I'm too absorbed by? Likely, it'll be something in between and I'll be fine.
So that's the big fear. And I need to face it, keep working and saving, and meanwhile start enjoying my leisure time again. Plus writing.
On the brighter side, I promptly made a just-coffee date with an online fellow who sounds nice. Well, glass of wine downtown date, actually.
I think I want to see how it is, and how I do, with the first-dates thing again. Rather than retreat.
Looking back on B, I know the concerns about our deep deep obvious differences were there from the get-go, and it not working out wasn't rocket science. (I do feel some sadness about missing the side of him I felt tenderly toward but still know it was the right decision.) And, still glad we tried.
So it's back to the "practice" practice. I know it's healthy. And in spring, when I can take my pooch and work in a walk on my way to a meet, it's less daunting than new-dates felt in the cold.
I think I should keep it light and not have those deadly-serious conversations instantly. But I also think that Judith Sills' wisdom sticks with me. First few dates are critical because for some odd reason, before people know each other and before any bond, they tend to reveal themselves most. And you can get a lot of very valuable insight if you (me) ask your questions lightly and in an unthreatening, casual way. Just keeping the ears tuned.
Lighter, your list of transparent explanations about who you are and what you require backfired on you in the bad one. I am hoping I can find a compromise between being focused on saying what are my own likes and wishes versus must-haves and deal-breakers....and missing his answers to the same. It's like doing two things at once, with ADD distractibility.
What I need to do is listen closely and (this part doesn't come too naturally) ASK A LOT OF QUESTIONS. A first date (or second) is the best time to (at this age anyway) get right out on the table whether I'm looking for just a fun companion or a serious relationship that could end in marriage. Early on, first date especially, I can look any geezer mildly in the eye and say, how about you? Do you see yourself marrying again? Usually, on a very early date, they'll tell the truth. Anyone who straightforwardly rules it out, I'll not spend tons of time on.
I do know what I want. A happy, comforting, kind marriage that gives us both company and support for the final chapter. Lots of people find that at ages even older than 68, so there's no reason for me to give up on the idea.
And there we go. I'm pondering leaving this thread alive for any dating or general Heist stuff. It's likely to be a bouncy parade of encounters I'll need y'all's feedback about.
Does that make sense?
love
Hops
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Hmmm. Just looked at my own profile description and about the other, notice I wrote: "Honesty, kindness, a sense of humor and love of people lead my list." I think B was very honest. I think he cares about people in the sense of long, loyal relationships. But I didn't find him kind to people--he was very socially gracious when he'd meet people but I could often sense disapproving judgments streaming through him at times. And though he could laugh, his sense of humor was very labored.
(He's probably thinking back on my flaws too, deservedly.)
Anyway, just trying to remind myself to keep what I care about up front.
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I think getting straight back to meeting someone (more than one someone?) for a quick, no expectations drink is a great idea, Hops. It's is difficult; I think none of us likes to think we're wasting time with someone who ultimately won't turn out to be 'the one' but equally we don't like to go into the situation with a checklist and a written guarantee. I do remember years ago complaining to my T about some of the guys I was going out on dates with at the time and about them not being compatible enough/serious enough/ having too much baggage/not having kids of their own etc, etc and she said "can't you just go and have fun?" And I didn't feel that I could, because the whole hassle of getting a sitter, finding the money to pay for it all, leaving my son (who already at that point was having problems) made me feel that I didn't have time to waste. So I do get the urgency or the frustration of wanting to know whether or not someone is worth a lot of time and effort. So yes, I do think questions are just a good way to find out more about people (and equally I really warm to people who, when I ask them lots of questions will interrupt me and say "we keep talking about me - what about you". I think the poverty stricken retirement phase is very natural to worry about, Hops - I don't worry about myself so much but I do worry endlessly about my son and what will happen to him once I am gone. So I think looking into that future and not knowing what it holds is hard. But equally you have people who lead charmed lives and probably don't give the older years a second thought and then some sort of horrible disaster strikes - we just never know. So I think getting straight back out there is a good idea - nice walk with pooch and some nice drinks sounds like a good plan for the summer :) xx
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Thanks, Tupp.
I think you spotted the undercurrent of anxiety.
I need to remind myself I was getting along okay on my own, not perfectly but functionally. And remember to look at any future man as a possible addition to my life, not the rescue of it.
And fun? That would be awesome.
For me, easy verbal communication's a biggie.
Not perfect but not a huge struggle.
Truly appreciate the cheering up and reminders that life is to be lived, not dreaded.
Organizer lady coming later and she always bucks me up too.
xxxooo
Hops
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Thanks, Tupp.
I think you spotted the undercurrent of anxiety.
I need to remind myself I was getting along okay on my own, not perfectly but functionally. And remember to look at any future man as a possible addition to my life, not the rescue of it.
And fun? That would be awesome.
For me, easy verbal communication's a biggie.
Not perfect but not a huge struggle.
Truly appreciate the cheering up and reminders that life is to be lived, not dreaded.
Organizer lady coming later and she always bucks me up too.
xxxooo
Hops
I find I miss things a lot more just after I've had or encountered them. If I've been out with friends then I feel more alone at home than I would have done if I hadn't seen anyone that day. My brief couple of dates with a bloke earlier this year left me yearning for a partner. If I have a good night's sleep I miss feeling good even more the next time I sleep badly. I think it's normal to feel that way.
As for an addition to one's life, I think that's the big thing. When you've been on your own, coped with x, y and z, earnt your own money, got through your tough times and so on and so on, I think the bar gets raised higher. When I was first alone - many years ago - my standards dropped because I just wanted someone, so I excused bad behaviour or ignored things about a person that I didn't like. Inevitably things ended anyway and as time went on I started to realise I preferred being on my own to being with just anyone. Now I find there are very few people whose company I prefer to my own and I think that can be why it feels hard to meet someone - they need to be pretty amazing to be an added bonus to the life of Hops, and it does mean there will be fewer guys like that out there. But I think he's out there somewhere, Hops. Did you ever read Bridges of Maddison County? Soppy doppy romance is not usually my thing but I loved that book, largely because of the respect they both had for each other's decisions. They were both on different life paths and there was such a strong bond between them that it lasted until they both passed away - real once in a lifetime stuff. I do think there's someone out there. But he has to be pretty special to be good enough to become Mr Hops :) xx
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Not long ago, I read an article about people who contract their time/writing skills to people who simply won't take the time to manage the online dating scenario themselves. The "goal" is to get as many phone numbers and first dates as possible. These companies believe that statistically, going out with as many people as possible will guarantee that a "relationship" blossoms eventually.
https://qz.com/1247382/online-dating-is-so-awful-that-people-are-paying-virtual-dating-assistants-to-impersonate-them/
Many times, a female writer will impersonate a male online, to establish that attraction/interest that leads to that first date. What the article - nor the companies - reveal is how many really awful "pairings" come out of this arrangement. How could a person tell, if you're really interacting with the profile that's listed??
About the only thing I find those sites useful for now, is reminding myself that are a lot of single guys in my area. My next thought is always: and WHY are they single? LOL.
The viking's disappearance doesn't matter to me. I felt like we were simply passing the time in a pleasant way... and not really moving toward a relationship. Even though he seemed interested in meeting, if I was passing by his location. And that conversation - a lot of "getting to know you" stuff - was the only time I found anyone not wanting to immediately jump into bed, possessiveness, or was a total fraud, like the first guy that set my radar off. The online environment simply doesn't encourage a one on one conversation of any value; just random flirty one-liners... or demands to meet/phone/email.
Whatever. To each their own. But I'm left with a sense of disappointment in the whole medium. It's not at ALL compatible with me or my style of seeking out a companion -- and I'm fairly accomplished/skilled at connecting with people online. It just seems........ really shallow. And I have survived this long without needing shallow relationships... LOL. I'm going to have to figure out another way to hang out and possibly meet guys I MIGHT be interested in.
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((((Hops)))). Sorry it ended with sadness , but glad you tried. There are deep lessons in these low spots. Perhaps you and Bill will take and run somewhere wonderful with what you've learned. I really hope so.
As for getting right back on the horse....you are an Amazon! Ride, Hops, ride. This is your life. Ask for what you want....
be open to receiving.
You might meet the right one at the grocery store, vet office, or online. The right companion should feel....
right.
::Nod::.
Sorry I've been away.
Lighter
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I just got the sweetest and most gracious note from B (not Bill! :)).
He said he was getting through the surprise and disappointment and "acceptance of loneliness" which I thought was a very wise thing to say. And he thought my decision was probably right for the long run but still wished we could have worked through our differences. He was glad we opened up so much to each other and learned so much from each other, and may call occasionally to see how I'm doing.
That touched me very much. Made it both easier and harder at the same time.
xxoo
Hops
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Wowsers..... amazing. A man who can accept rejection, of a sort, with Grace, dignity and poise.
That touched my heart to read too, Hops.
Lighter
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Was going to add new dating stories here but love how Lighter summed it up about B.
So I'll yammer on about dating, or some semblances, on another.
Hops
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B called yesterday and it felt so nice to talk to him.
He's doing okay. Playing golf with a neighbor lady so
maybe something nice will happen for him right where
he lives. I hope so.
I could tell he's still missing me acutely. I have missed
him too but as every week passes, less. There's part of
me that still regrets I was just unable to "assimilate" who
is naturally is, though I know I made the right call.
I made him laugh out loud (harder than I've ever heard)
when I said I was doing pretty well but am going to have
to put my pooch in therapy. They were SO simpatico.
Felt good to hear him laugh and bittersweet to hear him.
But still....the river's flowing. Forward and away.
Hops
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B called yesterday and it felt so nice to talk to him.
He's doing okay. Playing golf with a neighbor lady so
maybe something nice will happen for him right where
he lives. I hope so.
I could tell he's still missing me acutely. I have missed
him too but as every week passes, less. There's part of
me that still regrets I was just unable to "assimilate" who
is naturally is, though I know I made the right call.
I made him laugh out loud (harder than I've ever heard)
when I said I was doing pretty well but am going to have
to put my pooch in therapy. They were SO simpatico.
Felt good to hear him laugh and bittersweet to hear him.
But still....the river's flowing. Forward and away.
Hops
It would be nice for you to be friends, Hops, and maybe do coffee and a dog walk every now and again. He sounded like a nice guy, just not the right one for you xx