Voicelessness and Emotional Survival Message Board
Voicelessness and Emotional Survival => Voicelessness and Emotional Survival Message Board => Topic started by: Sela on July 16, 2005, 09:15:02 AM
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Yesterday, in the thread "Nervous Breakdown", Mud and I were having a discussion about some of my stuff. I didn't want to keep highjacking that thread (so sorry Zeene) so I'm starting a new topic here.
Last night I kept thinking about the last part of that conversation with Mud. I had written:
Surely people aren't punished for having diseases and for acting due to disease processes?
And Mud wrote back:
Well, lets call it a 'free will-disease'. They may be predisposed to mistreat people, but every act of spite and malice is still a conscious choice between right and wrong, with the full knowledge they are harming others. Presumably that's why a PD is not a legal defense.
(Hope you don't mind me quoting you here Mud. What you said really got me thinking and I want to see what other people think).
In my case, I really think my abuser had intentions and set out to harm me but the fact is, I have no clue what is really going on in that brain and I don't know for sure that it was conscious choice made under free will, in spite and malice.
I have a hard time believing that N is only caused by environmental factors because I grew up in a really nasty environment and I'm fairly sure I'm not NPD and fairly sure that at least one of my sibblings, is. If NPD is simply due to environment then everyone growing up with such parents would repeat the cycle, right?
Therefore, it seems there must be a bit of a genetic influence happening ......specifically....the inheritence of some predisposition of certain behaviours (eg. lying)....at the very minimum.
In the following article: http://www.nimh.nih.gov/press/williamspathway.cfm (http://www.nimh.nih.gov/press/williamspathway.cfm)
it is stated that the medial area of the prefrontal cortex of the brain has been associated with empathy and regulation of negative emotion. It goes on to describe how MRI's showed that this area of the brain can clearly "play a major role in producing social behavioral abnormalities".
What if.......certain things haven't been discovered yet? Is it possible that the nasty behaviours demonstrated by people who behave like N's might be linked to genetic abnormalties/predisposition and that conscious choice may not actually be all that conscious but rather.....an abnormal response caused by some real messed up stuff in the brain?
Why am I having such a hard time swallowing that my abuser intended to harm me? It seemed so obvious and I even think this is so? But I don't know.....I am just guessing/assuming/concluding and the only evidence I have is the behaviour itself....and the pain it caused me.
Do these people really have free will and make conscious choices to act spitefully and with malice?
Or are their brain wires so frigged up that they truely just act without thinking and without being able to empathize with those they act against? They can certainly act nicely when it suits them.
I've read that NPD is a fairly new concept being explored in more depth. Surely there is more to learn about it all. I guess my problem is that the behaviour of my abuser certainly hurt me but I don't want to judge unfairly and if this behaviour is due to a diseased wire-job, rather than a conscious choice .....then I am inclined to have pity more than anything (which may or may not be healthy for me??? :?). It just seems unfair to decide my abuser has free will, if there might be another explanation. It would be like being upset with someone for being diabetic...as if they could choose to produce and release insulin appropriately and as if they had free choice to make their pancreas function properly.
Does anyone else struggle with this?
Sela
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Do these people really have free will and make conscious choices to act spitefully and with malice?
Or are their brain wires so frigged up that they truely just act without thinking and without being able to empathize with those they act against? They can certainly act nicely when it suits them.
I've read that NPD is a fairly new concept being explored in more depth. Surely there is more to learn about it all. I guess my problem is that the behaviour of my abuser certainly hurt me but I don't want to judge unfairly and if this behaviour is due to a diseased wire-job, rather than a conscious choice .....then I am inclined to have pity more than anything (which may or may not be healthy for me??? :?). It just seems unfair to decide my abuser has free will, if there might be another explanation. It would be like being upset with someone for being diabetic...as if they could choose to produce and release insulin appropriately and as if they had free choice to make their pancreas function properly.
Does anyone else struggle with this?
To be honest, I don't struggle with it. When I encounter a narcissistic, abusive person, I immediately know that they are trying to survive however they can. If they vindictively or maliciously destroy someone, that is part of their survival process. They don't know how to manage situations any more than a 3 year old could. I basically see them as severely regressed people with a total inability to get what they want in a normal way. The problem could be hardwiring or not, that doesn't matter to me. If they can't behave properly due to neurological impairment, I really don't care. So my first priority is (1) self-protection. If I wait for them to realize they are f*** up, it will be a long wait. My next priority is (2) how do I strategize dealing with them if I'm forced to by circumstances? My third priority is (3) What is their internal world like so I can minimize becoming a 'bad object' in it? (well this is part of strategizing). And (4) if they have lied about me to others, I cut off and reject all people who believe the lies. I don't need those people in my life, they are obviously idiots.
bunny
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and if this behaviour is due to a diseased wire-job, rather than a conscious choice .....then I am inclined to have pity more than anything (which may or may not be healthy for me??? ).
I struggle with the same question. I know my husband had poor parenting. His family was very much into appearances rather than acknowledging their children for who they were and who they wanted to become. Because of the neuro-biological difficulties two of my children have, I have wondered many times whether my husband had the same difficulties which my kids acquired genetically. He never had any acknowledgement of his strengths and abilities. He was always told to fit in and represent the family . I can only think that this was crazy making for him. My kids were fortunate in that they had excellent doctors, more knowledge was available, and special schools, and understanding from me and the professionals involved in their care.
I also came from a very "odd family". I truly believe my mother was very narcissistic but I don't know why she became that way. She had so many talents but forced everyone around her to play into her self-centerdness which, of course, left her alone. My Daddy drank a lot. And I became the manager of the family so my husband seemed relatively normal to me which is why I married him :(. He is/was very high functioning and could disguise the real issues.
No child born wants to be unhappy. I don't know if it is genetics or neuro-biological stuff. The bottom line is that it does not work well in bringing up future children if the parents are not willing to collaborate in breaking the cycle. Whatever we are born with can be dealt with if we are in a family or community that is kind and compassionate and willing to take the time to focus on the best interests of the child. When the focus is always on us, the kids will have to bear the repercussions of having to emulate their parents or having the luck of getting strength and support of others outside the family so they can break the cycle of enherited disfunction or learned disfunction.
I feel pity for my husband and I feel pity for myself. I know what has happened and my the only thing I can do at this time with what I know is to carry on with my kids and give them the best information I have.
You can feel sorry for someone which shows you are compassionate but you can't let that pity control your future. If it controls your future then the madness just continues. See the pity for what it is and then go on to have a good life.
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Sela,
MRI's showed that this area of the brain can clearly "play a major role in producing social behavioral abnormalities".
My N-H, having medical reports from MRI's of the brain shows he has frontal lobe abnormalities.
Many leasions on the brain, having MS according to the doctors.
I have done a little reading found information regarding recent murders (colimbine school)
youths were found having abmormalites.
The frontal loble not developed maybe because of age and not fully developed.
Should they be responsible for the murders?
Argument: More people the same age would be walking about committing murders.
I did submitt to the courts for my OSC an article about what the effects are when the brain has abnormal
findings in this area ie, : agression, lack on long term thinking, moral judgement. (N) behaviors.
Question why don't the therapist use this information in diagnosis for treatment???
They are not doctors so the physical damages to the brain are not their area.
I think it is their area, to use any information to gain knowlege in their teatments.
If your bone was broken as seen on an x-ray, you would know which way to set the bone to heal.
With out the x-ray you just give an asprin to make the pain stop for short time maybe it's just a sprain or in your head. (must be hypocondia)
While the bone sets and heals deformed, too late to help correct the problem, sorry thought this asprin would have worked.
I have to take hormones if I didn't I would be pist off most of the time slaming doors and acting emotional.
I don't know if my brain shows something or not but my blood and hormone levels have indications I need medicine to contol this. How did my doctors understand my emotional problems were linked with hormones? I'm so glad someone found their was a link.
Thanks for reading OR
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Sela,
I have been following your discussion with mud on this with great interest. My opinion on this would be that NPD is so recent in its discovery (relatively speaking) and so much more studying will need to be done before any definitive statements about its origin can be made. Just based on what I have seen in my own family and ex's family, I would say that it was a combination of nature and nurture. But I don't think that genetically someone would become an n without the surrounding nurturing to develop it. I think the conditions need to be right for the n traits to become NPD.
As far as feeling compassion for their behavior, I don't. I feel some level of compassion for the fact that they will never experience real joy and happiness in their lives and turmoil will follow them wherever they go. But I agree with mud that there is an element of free will involved and they can consciously choose to hurt others or not. These are, for the most part, bright, intelligent individuals who do understand that their actions cause pain. They don't feel that pain and they don't care how others are affected, but they are aware of it and choose to do it anyway. I think it is too easy to say they are miswired and they can't help themselves. Just my 2 cents.
I hope you are feeling better, Sela. I felt so badly for you after reading your story about your daughter. Very unbelievable to imagine.
Blessings,
Brigid
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Hi everybody,
I have watched Ns weighing their options; on the one hand, the hard moral choice on the other the easy selfish one. We all weigh the same options. It may be harder for some than others, but until somebody can show me under a microscope the self-centered-arrogant-SOB-I-don't-care-how-many people-I-have-to step-on-my-comfort-is-more-important-than-the-rest-of-the-world gene, I will continue to believe that a person who is faced with a moral choice and makes the evil one every time is consciously making a choice.
Bunny wrote,
When I encounter a narcissistic, abusive person, I immediately know that they are trying to survive however they can.
That may be perfectly true, but it doesn't mean the method they use to survive is still not a conscious choice, and an immoral one. Its quite possible to survive in a most reprehensible manner.
I've been around a lot of three year olds and none of them ever relentlessly tried to destroy my life if I didn't comply with their wishes.
This discussion reminds me of the description of alcoholism as a disease. Many people say it is genetic and alcoholics can't help themselves because of their supposed predisposition.
The problem is there are many alcoholics who have turned from their drinking by making the conscious choice not to succumb to their disease. Its very hard for them to do and requires unbelievable courage and will power, but if we just call it a disease to avoid hurting the feelings of those who don't stop aren't we denying the sacrifice of the ones who do?
Obviously there is something wrong inside Ns noggins and I do have sympathy for the misery they are in but I have seen the calculation to intentionally do the wrong thing wth my own eyes, and its going to be tough to convince me their gene's made it impossible for them to choose the right thing.
mudpup
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That may be perfectly true, but it doesn't mean the method they use to survive is still not a conscious choice, and an immoral one. Its quite possible to survive in a most reprehensible manner.
I've been around a lot of three year olds and none of them ever relentlessly tried to destroy my life if I didn't comply with their wishes.
An adult behaving like a 3 year old can do a lot more damage than a literal 3 year old. That's why we don't concern ourselves about the narcissism of a 3 year old. Frankly whether an N's behavior choice is conscious, unconscious or semi-conscious doesn't matter to me. I just protect myself.
bunny
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Hello Sela,
First of all, I just wanted to add my sympathy for what you've been through. I'm so sorry that happened to you; it sounds like a complete nightmare, and I really admire how well you seem to be dealing with everything.
On the topic at hand...I just wanted to point out that in other times, places, and cultures, many of the behaviors that we "recognize" as "dysfunctional" were simply the norm. I am very hesitant to say that a failure to exhibit the behavior that we in 21st-century Western society classify as "good parenting," for example, would qualify as a brain disease. There was a time, not so long ago, when the parent's job was to foster proper deference to parental, religious, and social authority, and to punish infractions. Helping the child to recognize and realize his or her potential came a distant second, if it came at all. Most parents would have had no idea what you were talking about if you mentioned "unconditional love," and the idea of taking the child's side in a dispute with another authority figure, such as a teacher, would have been greeted with frank astonishment. Are today's cultural norms better? We seem to think so. But most generations believe that the attitudes and actions of their forebears were at best, uninformed, and at worst, harmful. I think it's a fact, though, that one reason NPD is a "recent" diagnosis is because the emotional consequences of relating to an NPD are only now being recognized. N's have been inflicting themselves on children, spouses, and co-workers ever since Narcissus fell in love with his reflection. But only now is the individual's happiness more important than the relationship, and only now do we culturally accept dissolving or altering basic social relationships (such as marriages or nuclear families) to enhance individual well-being.
I also think we have to be careful what we brand a "disease." Just because certain areas of the brain can be demonstrated to affect certain emotional responses, that doesn't make one particular response right or wrong, diseased or well. It is not necessarily a disease to be cruel, since "cruel" is a subjective concept.
None of this is to say that where we are, what is important in this historical moment, is wrong. I'm not wishing to turn back the clock. But I do think it's worth remembering that there are many ways to answer these questions, depending on where and when you ask them. In the here and now, for example, some people would automatically abort a fetus with a serious genetic irregularity. Others would view that as murder. Same action, fatal consequence to the involved party--but is making one decision over the other a "symption" of a diseased mind?
Just a few thoughts. I do not come down very strongly on one side or the other here, so I hope I have not offended anyone.
daylily
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Speaking purely from my own experience [which is more extensive than I wish it was] I've never seen an act of malice - behaviour that was clearly and transparently malicious - that wasn't intentional. To really 'do' malice well requires planning, or at the very least 'watchful waiting' for the right opportunity, the right circumstances, the right time to do the most damage.
Vindictiveness, in other words. Hate.
I suppose this could be interpreted as a behavioural form of predation... since actual hunting predators lurk and stalk and probably take much pleasure in the kill. And I suppose that for the type of predator whose food is other people's wellbeing, or their souls, this might have some warped kind of survival value.
Spite on the other hand seems to me to be much more rooted in spontaneous opportunity... and emotional gratification without the involvement of much real thought. I work with some extremely spiteful people, and it's amazing the degree of short-sightedness involved. They do as much damage to themselves as they do to everyone around them, because it's a knee-jerk behaviour. Someone needs something? Dig in heels and refuse to deliver, or make sure you deliver late or useless information. No matter who needs it, no matter who sees you doing it. Someone you dislike makes a trivial error? Jump all over them, ram it down their throat. In all these cases, everyone around them sees what they've done, and knows what they are... assuming no more than the usual level of denial is operating... but that doesn't matter to the spiteful, does it? Momentary gratification has been attained.
This, to me, is more like monkeys flinging you-know-what. The other is like snakes lying in wait.
Yeah, it was a loooong week at work... ;-)
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I don't know how to thank you all for the thought you've put into your responses. I really do appreciate it.
I haven't started many topics here, not because I don't have zillions of questions but because I still have a tape playing, I guess, that says it's a stupid question, or no one else would want to bother posting about that, or there is no answer so why bother, or other ridiculous derogatory thoughts that pop in and duhhhhh I quit before I begin.
Bunny, thankyou for being first to respond with your very logical strategy (it's so healthy to set priorities and make plans that are realistic and to the point). I really appreciate you sharing that.
Dogbittles, thankyou so much. I don't feel so alone now. I don't feel so crazy. I'm not the only one who struggles with this. Thankyou for saying that and for saying you too have pity (plus the go on and have a good life is the absolute way to go!! Way to go!! Good for you!!!).
OR, thankyou too for sharing and you ask some really serious questions which also induces much pondering, considering. ( I'm glad the doc figgered out about the hormones and that they are working too!). The part about the bone being deformed is really the whole point. It's like a brain with cancer in it.....same thing....do we hold the person responsible for their behaviour when their brain is sick and full of cancer and not functioning??
Brigid, thankyou for all of your kind words and for taking the time to post your opinion. Your 2 cents are worth a whole lot more to me. And you're right....it is too easy to say they are miswired and they can't help themselves. It's very easy to say. I just don't know. I just don't know if that really is the case or if it isn't and it's just something that I keep wondering about. What if that is what it is? (here I go with the what if's :roll:) What if there is a wire missing? What if, 50 years from now, the new know-how says these people can't help themselves?
I've always had a problem with "can't". I don't like that word and I will often discard it and think "won't". Most things are not "can't". Most things are a choice. If so, them I still pity the poor souls that choose to harm because I do, really believe we will all meet our maker and if that maker has any sense of justice whatsoever, He/She will NOT be a happy camper, when these people show up for mercy.
That's where I get stuck.
Mercy.
I want mercy when I do wrong. I hope others will have it with me. I know it's a different thing because I try not to be spiteful and I can't think of when I have acted with malice. But I must have. I'm only human. I'm in denial then or just can't remember or I've blocked it out.
I believe I am entitled to the same mercy I give out.
So........I have a hard time not being merciful.
Even when others have no mercy for me.
It almost sounds pathetic to write that but I'm being as honest. This is from my heart.
Mudbrother, your attitude is your strength. I don't want to change that. But what if there is such a gene? For me, I know I will suffer mounds of guilt if I have no mercy now and find out later how wrong I was.
These people have no morals, it seems. How can one act morally without morals?
All of these questions are just thoughts and they are not meant for you Brigid, or you Mud or anyone else specific. They're just questions.
Daylily, thankyou so much. I have been through the worst nightmare I can imagine any mother having to face, other than having their child murdered. I'm grateful that I have not been challenged to withstand the worst.
You're right too. We do have to be careful what we brand a disease and how that effects those who choose to overcome what we might see as disability. But not everyone has the same determination, the same strength, the same will, the same hope. I feel so lucky to have those things. They are gifts. They have helped me survive against many odds. I just can't help having pity on those who feel weak, without will, no drive and hopeless. I want to share those things....which is impossible, or is it?
Sometimes, someone can say something that changes a person's life.
Sometimes, a situation can cause people to fight harder.
But in the N's case? Something's missing? It is said no one can cure them. They can't feel empathy. My guess is they feel hopeless, deep inside???
Stormy, as usual you wrote something so plainly. I really believe these people who behave like N's have hate in them. And they do behave in knee-jerk ways too. But if they can't help it, is there mercy? Must not there be true sickness in a person who gets emotional gratification from vindictive or spiteful acts against other?
I don't know. No one does. There is no known "disease" so far but there is a disorder.
Disorder is out of order, not in proper order, something is messed up.
I'm so sorry about what you have to deal with at work Stormy. I wish a new job would come along for you with people you really enjoy working with, who are kind and considerate and thoughtful, like you.
I sure I hope I haven't missed anyone. I'm still confused. It hurts more to think my abuser acted with malice and spite and I do think that. Then I feel sad, angry, betrayed, beilittled, abused and ashamed of that person's behaviour. Then I think......what if.....about genes ?? And it helps me, some, to try to believe that the person can't help themselves. Then I battle the can't word again.
No matter what I do feel pity.
Sela
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Oh, Sela, I have spent sooooo much of my life trying to obtain mercy from the merciless.
Is there mercy for them? Perhaps. But what is there for us?
I think - I hope - that at the end of our lives, we are allowed to see clearly, everything. Everything we have done. Everything done to us. And to see with absolute clarity and accuracy into the motives of everyone who played a significant part in our lives, but even more importantly, to see into our own.
And I think we are given a choice then. Do we accept the responsibility for what we have been, said, done? Do we admit it? Where we were kind, helpful, good... are we glad? Where we were unkind... now that we see how and why... what do we do? What do we say to that great Witness who knows who we are and is sharing that knowledge with us, fully, for the first time?
I think this is where the malicious and spiteful have their chance to obtain mercy, or to reject it... along with every one of us... because we're all imperfect, and none of us is absolutely without flaws. I do think, though, God forgive me, that there's still a difference between those who scream profanity because they are in absolute agony of the soul, and those who bellow it because they know it will intimidate someone they want to harm.
Mud... before you start correcting my theology here ;-) take note that I didn't say precisely when at the end of our lives I think this reckoning-with-choice takes place..... :-)
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Dear (((((Stormy))))
Thankyou again. I believe that too about ..at the end of our lives (our time in this world or at the end of this world perhaps??) and I guess I just can't justify asking for mercy if I don't give it to those who most need it.
Who needs mercy more than those who have harmed me? Especially, if it was a choice to harm.
And if there was no choice and I show no mercy, then what will my reward be?
Before his last breath, as the story goes, Jesus asked God to have mercy on his murderers.
That has always stuck in my mind. It was an example of how to behave (whether a person believes the story, in Him, or not....the message seems clear). And I struggle with that. Maybe it's selfish to want to choose correctly?
Sela
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Before his last breath, as the story goes, Jesus asked God to have mercy on his murderers.
That has always stuck in my mind. It was an example of how to behave (whether a person believes the story, in Him, or not....the message seems clear). And I struggle with that. Maybe it's selfish to want to choose correctly?
Sela
I wouldn't call it selfish... not at all.
Isn't it interesting, that Jesus also said... again, quite apart from the question of faith, here... that we ought not cast our pearls before swine? That particular remark keeps coming to mind for me lately, in connection with my work experiences, and other parts of my personal history. What did he mean by it? And why would an ancient and observant Jew choose that specific animal - the most unclean of all unclean creatures, to any devout Jew - as his illustration for the recipient of wasted treasure?
Feel free to disagree with me here. But I think he was saying that we are finite, even though goodness itself is not. We are time limited, we become exhausted, we get used up. And for that reason, we shouldn't waste our best.... especially on the worst.
Some hairsplitting now. There's a difference between judging and discerning.
When a person judges, in the sense that people are told not to be 'judgmental', there's an emotional component to the rejecting of the thing or person that is judged, kind of an 'ick factor'. When a person discerns, the result might be the same [it's a waste of my time to interact with X, they are abusive] but it comes from a detached place, there isn't the 'ick' aspect to it. Someone who judges X for being abusive will show contempt or disdain for X, they can't help it. Someone who discerns that X is abusive and decides to avoid them won't show contempt or disdain, for the simple and excellent reason that they don't feel contempt. Or disdain. It's not about feelings for them, it's just about avoiding unpleasantness and wasted time, energy, etc.
So I think that bit about the pearls and the piggies has to do with discerning where to spend our limited lifetime supply of goodness and mercy, in order to have it do the most good - for both the recipient and for us. And we're being advised not to waste it. And I honestly think that if we can withdraw our investment of time and treasure from someone who has abused us, in a detached way so that it comes from discernment rather than judgment of the person, then we are still in a position to show them mercy. We're not trying to hurt them, we still wish them good... but any good that comes to them is no longer going to be paid for with our tears. And in that way, we are finally showing mercy to ourselves.
Whoo, this is hard stuff. When you actually read what the man taught, it's as profound and paradoxical as anything taught by the Zen masters.
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Sela,
I was just talking to a neighbor earlier who was relating the story of her divorce (she is now happily remarried for 2 years) and the subsequent havoc that her ex and his new mate have wreaked on her life since then. There is NO question that this man is an n and has actually been diagnosed as psychotic. He is also a practicing physician. I'm sure Stormy has encountered people in esteemed positions in her work and we have heard from many others on this board whose n's are in life and death positions. If they truly have no control over their behavior, why the HELL are we allowing them to fly airplanes, run large corporations, deliver babies, and transplant hearts. How can they be capable of those very important jobs, but not be able to control the way they behave toward certain individuals? Is the brain that selective that the presence of a particular person will send off signals to this n individual to start acting like an a$$hole and they can't help themselves?
I don't know the answers to these questions, but it scares the crap out of me to think that they could have so little control over the way they operate their relational systems.
I do believe there will be an ultimate judgment for the evil doers and I hope the ultimate grace for the survivors. Lots to think about.
Brigid
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I'm still confused. It hurts more to think my abuser acted with malice and spite and I do think that. Then I feel sad, angry, betrayed, beilittled, abused and ashamed of that person's behaviour. Then I think......what if.....about genes ?? And it helps me, some, to try to believe that the person can't help themselves. Then I battle the can't word again.
No matter what I do feel pity.
Let's say the person has a psychiatric disorder (personality disorders are mental illnesses btw) and is considered "ill." They are going to behave in diagnostic ways - chaotic, irrational, immature, distorted, malicious, vindictive, deceitful, hostile, aggressive, sociopathic, etc. There are ways to "mitigate" their bad behavior - sometimes. The main way to deal with these people is avoidance; second choice, agree to be their bad object temporarily; after you do this, the person is far more malleable and under your control. But you have to agree to be hated by them for a short time and not resist it. The mistake/error is thinking that we can cure a narcissist through love or kindness. Actually the most effective thing is to allow them to use you as a garbage container for a short time, which if done right, metabolizes their raw affects and allows them to calm down. That takes skill and most of us don't have the skill nor do we want to do it. So that leaves avoidance as the optimal idea. This does not erase pity, mercy, or compassion. Those things are all part of what I'm talking about. If you can accept that a person acts hatefully BECAUSE their internal template is that of hate and terror, then you can understand everything. I think many people have a very hard time believing this. If you could detach from the abuser, and not feel their shame, or feel connected to their behavior even as their victim, but see yourself as a projection screen that you can leave standing and go away from it, I think your confusion will minimize.
bunny
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Brigid, thankyou for all of your kind words and for taking the time to post your opinion. Your 2 cents are worth a whole lot more to me. And you're right....it is too easy to say they are miswired and they can't help themselves. It's very easy to say. I just don't know. I just don't know if that really is the case or if it isn't and it's just something that I keep wondering about. What if that is what it is? (here I go with the what if's :roll:) What if there is a wire missing? What if, 50 years from now, the new know-how says these people can't help themselves?
I've always had a problem with "can't". I don't like that word and I will often discard it and think "won't". Most things are not "can't". Most things are a choice.
The last paragraph sounds like it could be me writing it. This is where I get stuck too. Isn't it a choice? I know with abusers it is a choice they make whether to abuse.
I believe N's development comes down to nature and nuture and (possibly external environment). I think bunny said this?
I can see that in my Nm's family. There was very sick stuff going on there which literally turned deadly for my Nm's Nm (Ngrandmother). My Ngm died as a result of her behavior perpetrated on her son. No nuture and his nature became a deadly force unleashed upon his Nm. My uncle's diagnosis was unknown but I guess something like Narcissistic Sociopath or Psychopath??? would be appropriate today. He was declared criminally insane.
Then there is the volatile addition to a N's already abusive behavior - becoming an Abuser too. Lundy Bancroft's book Why Does He Do That? is one book where I've seen someone address when a N becomes an Abuser. Lundy catagorizes this abuser type among the mentally ill and addicted abuser. He says, the N's "condition is highly compatible with abusiveness ... This disorder is highly resistant to therapy and is not treatable with medication. The Abuser with this disorder is not able to change substantially through an abuser program either, although he sometimes makes some minor improvements."p103 He says these abusers account for a small percentage of abusive men.
N Abusers seem to be more prevalent in the news these days.
A N Abuser does have a choice whether to abuse.
I mull over and over in my mind why my Nm couldn't go to counseling and look at her childhood. It doesn't seem to matter what the books say about why she wouldn't. I can't see that she did the best job she could as a parent if she refused to look into herself. She made a choice there. That's where I get stuck in the "can't."
That was a definite choice my Nm made. That decision makes me favor N having a choice.
Maybe they don't choose to change because like abusers they get too many benefits and rewards/entitlements for their behavior? That is the reason most abusers wont change, the benefits and entitlements outweigh the benefits of change. They like their status. They can learn empathy but they don't.
These people have no morals, it seems. How can one act morally without morals?
Like S. Peterson? The judge said "you have no moral rudder." And called him a N Sociopath?
My H says "you can't legislate morals." I agree with that. If it isn't a choice to act and behave in morally acceptable ways a person will return to their behavior.
I read an interesting article from a monthly newsletter I receive. It said that everyone of us is born with the knowledge of right and wrong.
So something happens to a person's moral rudder when a particular type of person grows up in a N home?
My therapist believes that the more a society becomes technologically advanced, the more healthy relationship structures fail.
So N could be caused by nature, nuture and external environment?
I have been through the worst nightmare I can imagine any mother having to face, other than having their child murdered. I'm grateful that I have not been challenged to withstand the worst.
I'm so sorry. ((((((((((Sela)))))))))
But in the N's case? Something's missing? It is said no one can cure them. They can't feel empathy. My guess is they feel hopeless, deep inside???
The more I read, the more I believe they probably feel the same as I have; diminished, non-existent, like a speck. Yet they fight against anything which would bring those feelings to the surface. My Nbro's true self was most likely diminished by not becoming the person he was meant to be.
I guess the feeling I'm trying to describe my true self is annihilated or extinguished. I don't like those words but it best describes the overall feeling I have.
Must not there be true sickness in a person who gets emotional gratification from vindictive or spiteful acts against other?
My H's ex is like this. I don't believe she's a N (could be). She was angry about the child custody situation and thought her ex was thinking/acting the same way (and that everybody acts like her - oops sounds more like a N :) ). She'd do strange things to "pay back."
I'm still confused. It hurts more to think my abuser acted with malice and spite and I do think that. Then I feel sad, angry, betrayed, beilittled, abused and ashamed of that person's behaviour. Then I think......what if.....about genes ?? And it helps me, some, to try to believe that the person can't help themselves. Then I battle the can't word again.
No matter what I do feel pity.
Sela
At this point I feel mostly sadness. There's some shock/anger at times for the far reaching impact on my life.
I have no pity for my Nparents and Nbro and that feels strange. Or maybe not??? Pity for me is about sharing the suffering of or compassion for or commiserating with my Nparents and Nbrother. I definitely don't feel that way towards any of them. It might change. Then again it might not. I can't commiserate with or share in their suffering. Compassion? Possibly some day.
However for now and in the future it is keeping distance from them. I'm going to change some of that as well and have stronger boundaries. Years ago my therapist said that some parents don't deserve to have our attention. They are too toxic.
Thanks for interesting and thought provoking topic, Sela. :)
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Bunny, You have such deep insite to the difficult people in our lives, so lucky to have you here.
These Crazy people need skilled help along with the kids and all other family members.
That takes skill and most of us don't have the skill nor do we want to do it. So that leaves avoidance as the optimal idea. This does not erase pity, mercy, or compassion. Those things are all part of what I'm talking about. If you can accept that a person acts hatefully BECAUSE their internal template is that of hate and terror, then you can understand everything
The courts in CA could make me come back to CA because my H wants to fight for custody of our D.
I have our D seeing a T, she needs training from the skilled to understand how to deal with the crazy stuff.
It would be great if my H would leave us alone, his motivation is the money she gets from his SSI.
He thinks it's HIS not hers. We didn't know he was collecting it before we left CA, he was going to leave us both, I think at the end he figured he had to prove she was with him to collect her SSI.
That SSI just stopped this month because he went back to WC after his surgery .
Now I have to pay back that SSI because he never told them he was on WC and should not have been receiving any SSI during this time.
He went to the office made a lot of effort to tell them I kidnapped her and the money stopped.
He could have told them then he was also getting WC but he did not.
I'm thinking maybe with the WC money he would be happy, he doesn't have to share that.
It might be like the monkey seeing the shinny thing and all he wants to care about.
The courts not matter what conditions his mental state is in want their money back.
I don't know if they prosecute for the lies, for now I have to pay back the money she received and he would too.
He can't say he was not able to notify them because he let them know he wanted the money we were receiving to stop. He made a choice to hurt, attack and had no care if his daughter had food.
He is a TRUE SELF-ABSORBED N.
Should he be punished for not telling the SSI?
He has no "moral rutter" didn't care if his daughter had food.
He has a MONKEY BRAIN! He needs his leasons learned like a monkey, I have no skills to train a monkey.
These Monkey brains can be motivated and have an agenda not easily broken.
The harm done by the lies he has told now not only to me our D both our families the courts and GOV. Where does it stop?
I know MERCY would be to keep the N from doing more harm, and GRACE from the courts would be to keep us far away from his MONKEY BRAIN ways "DON"T make us the SHINNY THING in his life."
God wants the pure in heart, so if the brain feeds the heart speaking lies, doing hate to others, attacking over and over with hurtful ways, the heart would be weak and empty ready to drop fast right into HELL.
If the heart is full of lies from a defective brain, GOD would know this and what is true in a mans heart.
I must do the safe thing for now and leave the battle for the heart/brain with GOD.
Thanks for reading....OR
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OR,
Your husband is a textbook sociopath (and possibly a psychopath). This is a super-pathological narcissist. A sociopath will lie, cheat, and steal from their own child and it is as natural as breathing to them. They have no ability to form a conscience. That part is missing. They enjoy conning, hustling, and cheating from anyone who has something they want. No exceptions. A real sociopath is extremely dangerous and highly destructive. So in the case of your husband, my primary strategy would be, "How can I separate our finances and financial responsibilities as quickly as possible?!!!" Is your BIL helping you with an attorney? I'm sorry, I haven't totally kept up with your situation.
bunny
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I think it is easier on us to feel that they have a mental illness than to deal with the fact that they had choices and chose to use us as their receptacle for their anger and shame. Once they have chosen to use us, we are on the defensive. We have to explain ourselves to the world. Why did we put up with this for so long. Is it really true that we are defective and are the cause of the "abusers" anger and denigration of ourselves.??? It's a win-win situation for them for the short term.
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I watched my sibling grow up N, and I had lots and lots of chances to compare the way my parents treated each of us at key points in our growing up.
I was the firstborn and kept on a VERY tight rein. Also, my Nmother disliked me probably from the moment I began to express enough personality for her to see I was more like my father than like her. My Nsib was spoiled rotten from the cradle, and blatantly favored by my Nmother.
I saw thefts go unpunished (especially if my Nsib stole from me). I saw my Nsib tell my parents to go ---- themselves and then demand money from them five minutes later and get it... now, this was 40 years ago, when it wasn't considered 'cool' to tell people to ---- themselves, it was still considered horribly rude [which it is, social 'fashions' be damned].
I saw my Nsib encouraged by my Nmom to scavenge coins from vending machines, take money from lost wallets before turning them in, etc. etc. etc. -- to all of which my enabling father turned a blind eye. Meanwhile, both parents were severely strict with me. It's as though I got the discipline I should have had, but also the discipline my Nsib should have had.
My Nmom's family acted just like my Nmom, and my father's family rarely ever saw us, and when they did, they basically ignored the kids, except for my grandparents, who were in total denial about my sibling.
I think there was a sweet little kid in my Nsib's body for about three or four years. I saw a human being looking out of those eyes then, and from time to time later on, but less and less often as we both got older. But by the time my Nsib was four or five, it was clear to me that there was a very calculating, scheming little manipulator in there, taking over everything. To which my father was deliberately blinding himself, and which my Nmother was rewarding and encouraging.
I didn't know at the time my mother was N, of course. But I knew my sibling was dishonest and conniving, and being rewarded for it, while I was being punished for everything my sibling did, essentially [in other words, my sibling would break a vase. Nothing was done. I would then come in five minutes late from playing outside, and be grounded for a week. I knew this was a displacement reaction, even though I didn't have the words for it. It was clear to me that my parents were mad about the vase and wanted to punish somebody and that they weren't about to punish the wrongdoer. And just for the record, I called them on it, every time, from the instant I first saw clearly what was going on. This didn't sink in with them, of course, but it probably kept me from becoming psychotic, or developing severe reactive depression.]
This is a longwinded way of saying I think Ns are made, but the material to make them from is present in all of us. If I'd been the spoiled, indulged pet, taught to scheme and manipulate others, I'd probably be the Nsib, and my Nsib would be here posting, instead of me. I mean... our mothers are supposed to love us, right? So if I'd been 'loved' by my Nmother, it would have been for being what my sibling turned out to be... dishonest, manipulative, greedy, etc., from a very young age.
Could my Nsib change? Oh definitely. There was a period when my Nsib was in therapy and seemed to be developing some genuine insight. But... along with the lying and greed, my Nsib is lazy as hell. And I think it was just too much work for them, to rearrange their opinions and see who their real enemy was, all that time. And it was so much more fun to support my Nmother in slandering me, etc. So... there's no doubt in my mind that my Nsib chose, and chose, and chose again to be N.
I saw my Nmother choose too. She was one of the most savage racists I have ever known, and she enjoyed it. Which is stupid as well as evil, because she was 1/4 ethnic minority, and 1/2 apostate Jewish [immigrant grandparents who converted, I don't know why] and she was closest to and best loved by the grandparent who was of another race, when she was a little girl. I'd point this out to her, and she'd admit it was true, and two seconds later she'd be back at the Klan meeting, in her mind at least.
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He has a MONKEY BRAIN! He needs his leasons learned like a monkey, I have no skills to train a monkey.
:D :D :D I laughed and laughed. :)
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Hey long, you made me happy I made you laugh. :P
MONKEY BRAIN ways "DON"T make us the SHINNY THING in his life."
I feel like a moving target and a very shinny thing right now.
If Monkey Man will take his money and leave me alone I would be happy.
My friend from CA tells me she saw him riding his bike.
This is after the e-mail I got telling me how sick he was and I was going to cause him heart failure, how he was paralized on one side of his body and I would cause him a stroke with all the stress.
She said he looked fine and peddled the bike with no problem.
I'm so gald I'm not in the same state or town like you are Longtire, I would imagine seeing the same places would be more difficult to let go.
Bunny, I looked up the word sociopath/physcopath not good. I understand why you would see this with all the lies and no care about how it affects others.
Your husband is a textbook sociopath (and possibly a psychopath). This is a super-pathological narcissist. A sociopath will lie, cheat, and steal from their own child
There is a list of functioning sociopaths and others who went to jail like Ted Bundy, Jeffrey Dommer,
you know the type.
not to say my H would ever kill anyone, but the recipie is there and if the same recipie is there I would hate to think some one I have know for 28yrs could now be ready to do something terrible to his family is so so scary.
At this point I don't have a lawyer, one wrote me yesterday and said with mediation no lawyers are involved.
It's the parents only. I do have 32 pages of e-mails admits to lies about money and other information for the judge to review on the OSC for 8/1.
I have to go will write later
Take care .........OR
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Hi Stormy:
What I mean by selfish is that maybe I'm only concerned with being merciful in order to justify asking for mercy for myself? Or maybe I'm beating myself up about stupid stuff because doesn't everyone hope for mercy?
Feel free to disagree with me here. But I think he was saying that we are finite, even though goodness itself is not. We are time limited, we become exhausted, we get used up. And for that reason, we shouldn't waste our best.... especially on the worst.
I agree with you. And I feel like I've given a pearl to a swine. That pearl was trust.
...there's an emotional component to the rejecting of the thing or person that is judged, kind of an 'ick factor'. When a person discerns, the result might be the same [it's a waste of my time to interact with X, they are abusive] but it comes from a detached place, there isn't the 'ick' aspect to it.
I haven't shown and don't feel contempt or disdain and I don't despise my abuser so by your definition of judging....vs discerning.....I guess I haven't judged. I have distanced myself from this person. Thanks for pointing this out Stormy. It helps.
So I think that bit about the pearls and the piggies has to do with discerning where to spend our limited lifetime supply of goodness and mercy, in order to have it do the most good - for both the recipient and for us. And we're being advised not to waste it. And I honestly think that if we can withdraw our investment of time and treasure from someone who has abused us, in a detached way so that it comes from discernment rather than judgment of the person, then we are still in a position to show them mercy. We're not trying to hurt them, we still wish them good... but any good that comes to them is no longer going to be paid for with our tears. And in that way, we are finally showing mercy to ourselves.
That's a really good way to think of it. I think I'll print that out and read it over and over until it sinks in. Really, it doesn't matter whether or not their behaviour was a conscious choice or not. It hurt me and I need to protect myself....show myself mercy, I guess, by adjusting my thinking. I'm giving my abuser's intention too much power..the power to hurt more. The fact is there were acts of spite and malice which hurt. Thanks Stormy. Somehow your words made me realize this.
Hi Brigid: If they truly have no control over their behavior, why the HELL are we allowing them to fly airplanes, run large corporations, deliver babies, and transplant hearts. How can they be capable of those very important jobs, but not be able to control the way they behave toward certain individuals? Is the brain that selective that the presence of a particular person will send off signals to this n individual to start acting like an a$$hole and they can't help themselves?
These are very good points. Thankyou Brigid. You've helped me too. My abuser is a high school teacher and you're right....my abuser is pretty selective and does seem to have control over when and toward whom to act with spite and malice. I am the one who is despised and held in contempt by this person. The wiring in that brain works very well so often. It almost seems silly to think of their behaviour toward me as some genetic predisposition.
Hi Bunny:
So that leaves avoidance as the optimal idea. This does not erase pity, mercy, or compassion.
If you can accept that a person acts hatefully BECAUSE their internal template is that of hate and terror, then you can understand everything.
These two sentences hit home Bunny. Thanks. You're so right. My abuser's template is one of hate and terror so I do understand why this person acts hatefully (and is paranoid also). I am distanced from the person and by doing that I have not erased pity, mercy or compassion. But I was taking the behaviour more personally than necessary. Maybe it's what I represent that my abuser is so spiteful of and acts so maliciously against? That's why there was so much envy and jealousy, prior to those acts and probably contributing to those acts.
If you could detach from the abuser, and not feel their shame, or feel connected to their behavior even as their victim, but see yourself as a projection screen that you can leave standing and go away from it, I think your confusion will minimize.
What a great way to look at it. Thankyou Bunny. Thinking adjustment in progress.
Hi ITex:
Maybe they don't choose to change because like abusers they get too many benefits and rewards/entitlements for their behavior? That is the reason most abusers wont change, the benefits and entitlements outweigh the benefits of change.
Maybe? And maybe they're too terrified to admit their behaviour is malicious and spiteful and maybe they hate themselves for it but the idea of saying so is also terrifying?
I'm so sorry. ((((((((((Sela)))))))))
Thankyou ITex. The good news is I'm surviving and trying my best to thrive. I refuse to give up hope.
I guess the feeling I'm trying to describe my true self is annihilated or extinguished. I don't like those words but it best describes the overall feeling I have.
I think I know what you mean and I have felt that way myself but I have since decided that my flame was just made really, really small but it never went out. This place is like oxygen.
However for now and in the future it is keeping distance from them. I'm going to change some of that as well and have stronger boundaries. Years ago my therapist said that some parents don't deserve to have our attention. They are too toxic.
Good for you ITex! I'm glad your T is so supportive too! Spit out the poison!!
Thanks for interesting and thought provoking topic, Sela.
Thankyou for reading and thankyou for posting and thankyou for saying that. I really appreciate it.
Hi OR:
These Monkey brains can be motivated and have an agenda not easily broken.
A spiteful and malicious agenda.
God wants the pure in heart, so if the brain feeds the heart speaking lies, doing hate to others, attacking over and over with hurtful ways, the heart would be weak and empty ready to drop fast right into HELL.
If the heart is full of lies from a defective brain, GOD would know this and what is true in a mans heart.
Thankyou OR. For me this has been a spiritual question (the topic of this thread) even though it is also a sort of scientific one. But your words are very true. God knows what's behind the acts...whether it be genetic or conscious choice. You're really hit the nail for me. It's not up to me to worry about, is it?
I must do the safe thing for now and leave the battle for the heart/brain with GOD.
You are so wise, OR. I think it's time I did the same thing. Thankyou.
Hey again Stormy:
This is a longwinded way of saying I think Ns are made, but the material to make them from is present in all of us.
I'm so sorry your parents showed such favoritism toward your sibbling and I'm proud of your attitude of sort of....better your sib than you... and for recognizing that you have not learned to be selfish and disrespectful and nasty, dishonest, manipulative and greedy, and all the rest and you seem grateful for that. Good for you Stormy!!
Hiya Dogbittles: I think it is easier on us to feel that they have a mental illness than to deal with the fact that they had choices and chose to use us as their receptacle for their anger and shame.
When I really think about what you wrote, and what has been bothering me, I now see that both of these are true. They do have a mental illness....they have to...in order to enjoy what they do or even to do it and keep doing it. And we are the chosen receptacles. I have tended to think...why me? What did I do to deserve this? What's wrong with me?
But that's really not really it. These people will always choose someone to use as a projection screen (as Bunny put it.....thanks again Bunny). We just happen to be convenient or handy.
Once they have chosen to use us, we are on the defensive. We have to explain ourselves to the world. Why did we put up with this for so long. Is it really true that we are defective and are the cause of the "abusers" anger and denigration of ourselves.???
I've berated myself this way too and I came to the conclusion that I tolerated certain abuses because I wanted the impossible.....I wanted a kind, considerate, respectful, honourable relationship with the person and kept trying to do, say, be the right things....to please this person. This is impossible when there is such sickness present in the other person. They will never be pleased with our trying to please them. Their pleasure seems to come from the power they have to intice us to please. We certainly didn't cause our abuser's anger and that denigration. The defect I decided I had was to keep trying for something that was futile. Not so bad, really. I'd like not to repeat that and I regret being a puppet for so long but I didn't try to harm I tried to do some good things. If this person was not family I would never have bothered.
It's a win-win situation for them for the short term.
Only if we allow ourselves to feel like we've done something to deserve such treatment or to think that there is something bad or wrong about us. If we go on to live good, happy lives, despite these "monkeys" (thanks OR), if we work to get the joy back in our lives, we win and they are left in their pathetic state of searching for new screens to project upon and for some way to purge the template of hate and terror.
Is this helping you Dogbittles? It really has helped me. Thankyou ((((((all)))))). I feel much better.
:D Sela
PS: Good for you OR for not losing your sense of humour and for treading on, regardless of fear! My prayers are still for you and your D (especially on that day of court coming up fast!).
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Hi Sela and everyone,
The motivation of the abuser only matters to me to this extent; if he is abusing me through a conscious choice then I need to forgive that person, and it would help me whether to decide to seek restitution for the damage that person has done.
If the person is without choice because their mnd is so diseased as to be non functional regarding choices between right or wrong, then there is nothing to forgive, malice was not involved.
Christ told us to love and forgive our enemies. A person without malice toward me is not my enemy.
Maybe this works as an example.
If a schizophrenic punches me in the nose because he thinks he's Napolean and I'm Wellington, then I'm neither going to prosecute nor sue the guy. I would hope the authorities provide him with some help.
If on the other hand, an N punches me in the nose because he wishes to harm me for my refusal to assist him in some immoral undertaking and he has calculated he can get away with it, then I most assuredly will seek justice and restitution. I will also begin work on forgiving this person.
If Ns were so out of control as to be not able to make a conscious choice between right and wrong then it seems there would be no limit to their whacko behavior, just like a schizophrenic. But there are very sharp limits to what they say and do. They very cunningly do only things they think they will help them.
Compassion. mercy and forgiveness are all possible while still acknowledging the personal responsibility of the N and seeking some form of justice for their behavior.
mudpup
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Hiya Mud:
The motivation of the abuser only matters to me to this extent; if he is abusing me through a conscious choice then I need to forgive that person, and it would help me whether to decide to seek restitution for the damage that person has done.
If the person is without choice because their mnd is so diseased as to be non functional regarding choices between right or wrong, then there is nothing to forgive, malice was not involved.
For me, if my abuser has intention of hurting me, there is an additional thing to forgive. The actions still occurred and caused hurt (which can be forgiven). The intention behind the action, in other words..action that was intended to cause hurt vs not intended (mistake), count in my book as something separate (right word??) to forgive.
Intention to commit harm seems like an additional choice, along side the actual action. I will never know the truth about my abuser's intention, I doubt, but I do/did experience the result/s of the actions. Those acts hurt me regardless of intention.
In most situations and for most people here, my bet is there is little chance of seeking justice or restitution. That's a good thing for you Mud, at least you can do that! I'm glad you can!
The rest of us will have to settle for going on with our lives and being happy regardless of our abuser's actions. I'm still hoping for that and working toward that and really believe it will happen.
That is the healing I hope for all here.
Sela
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Intention to commit harm seems like an additional choice, along side the actual action. I will never know the truth about my abuser's intention, I doubt, but I do/did experience the result/s of the actions. Those acts hurt me regardless of intention.
I wouldn't confuse a disordered person's intention with a mature adult's intention. A personality-disordered individual does not have the same route of intention. They are more on auto-pilot, operating from primitive (infantile) templates that they have never reflected on, unconscious motives, lack of impulse control, severely distorted, hostile, punitive, enraged, terrorized internal objects. I could accept and forgive their impairment. However I might hate them for what they do. And I would definitely avoid them. I wouldn't retaliate or try to ruin their life, which is my way of being forgiving.
bunny
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Hi Bunny,
They are more on auto-pilot, operating from primitive (infantile) templates that they have never reflected on, unconscious motives, lack of impulse control,............................. severely distorted, hostile, punitive, enraged, terrorized internal objects.
I agree with the last part of that statement. They have all sorts of internal rage, hostility etc.
The first part I have a harder time accepting. With my own eyes and ears, I've observed the planning, the waiting for the right opportunity, the weighing of costs vs benefits, the pulling back when over-extended, the calculated saccharine charm, the elaborate set ups.
The Ns I've know have never been on auto pilot and have extreme impulse control.(usually) :?
Nor have they never reflected on their infantile templates. I think they reflect on them all the time, and I think they may even try to change them. But like a hopeless addict they always succumb to the immediate gratification of tearing someone else down to build themselves up.
Hi to you too Sela,
The action to me is utterly irrelevant.
If a guy hits an unseen nail on the road, has a blowout, loses control and totals my car, I'm not going to forgive him because there's nothing to forgive.
If a guy drinks eight gin and fizzes and totals my car then I'm going to need to forgive him because he was irresponsible.
Even more so, if a guy exhibits hostility toward me because of his inner anger and hatred and intentionally totals my car and would have been quite happy to injure me if he could get away with it, I have even more to forgive.
I know Dickens said the law is a ass, but I believe the way homicide is treated by the law illustrates things pretty well.
Accidental homicide is often not prosecuted.
Negligent homicide usually involves a light sentence.
Homicide on the spur of the moment a stiffer penalty.
Cold blooded, planned murder, often the ultimate penalty.
Homicide by somebody so crazy as not to know right from wrong usually receives a trip to the nuthouse not the pen.
I think the law makes a quite proper distinction in just how much a killer owes to society based on his intentions. And I make those same distinctions when dealing with people who cause me harm.
Justice and restitution do not make victims happy. They don't take the destruction away or the memory of it. They just give a little satisfaction that evil doesn't always get away scot free.
mudpup
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Sela - I understand what you're saying about mercy. You want to make sure you give it - so that in return, mercy will be granted back to you.
I've also seen some quotes here from the Bible. I think that being merciful is a good thing. However, there are times to step in and give mercy - and there are times to step away. In my life I've found that stepping away from a person or situation causes me to be a bit more clear toward the person or situation.
I know the quote "casting pearls before swine" - but I also know there have been inferences of prayer toward changing my heart. I think that mercy may be common sense - putting myself in the other person's place and determining their situation. If after putting myself in the other person's place to figure out their situation - and they're just being mean - back away. By backing away, I show them mercy by backing away from them. . and in the process I'm being merciful to me by putting up a boundary.
Just a thought process after all I've been through these past two months. Cat
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The first part I have a harder time accepting. With my own eyes and ears, I've observed the planning, the waiting for the right opportunity, the weighing of costs vs benefits, the pulling back when over-extended, the calculated saccharine charm, the elaborate set ups.
The Ns I've know have never been on auto pilot and have extreme impulse control.(usually) :?
Nor have they never reflected on their infantile templates. I think they reflect on them all the time, and I think they may even try to change them. But like a hopeless addict they always succumb to the immediate gratification of tearing someone else down to build themselves up.
mud,
If the person is sociopathic they will definitely calculate what they're doing. This is still part of an internal template where the person never developed a normal superego. So I take them as disturbed individuals who are sick. Basically I will stay out of their way and never trust them. I might forgive them but it wouldn't change my behavior one iota.
bunny
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Hi all! very interesting topic. I agree not enough research done yet on NPD. I believe and there is emerging evidence to back this up, that there is a genetic component to NPD and I also believe down the road there will be proven brain changes in frontal lobe and chemistry. That being said, I think most Ns know deep down inside there is something wrong or different about/with them. My ex N used to say sometimes he " felt estranged from the world...different...empty". I firmly believe all Ns are filled with self loathing, hatred and fear. The majority of Ns, other personality disordered people, incl. anti social, sociopaths etc do know right from wrong. They simply don't think rules apply at all to them. They know what they're doing is considered " wrong" by the world, they don't care unless they get caught- and then they care only about what THEY have to suffer in consequence. If we look at their abuse and say, oh, they don't know what they're doing- we're opening the door for empathy and rationalization for their terrorism. It's a foreign concept for majority of us to believe that evil does exist and that there are real monsters parading around in flesh suits.A trump card for predators and parasites. I don't believe for a minute that Ns realize at any point they need to change themselves and it's impossible to grow a conscious. They thrive on chaos and pain- that is their sole form of communicating and they simply do what they know- kind of like sharks- the perfect killing machines. Someone here made an excellent point about them making the conscious effort to shed people from their lives who believe the lies Ns spread or sympathize with them- the old " benefit of a doubt". I concur wholeheartedly. These people may have the best of intentions but if you keep them in your life they sabotage and undermine you. Contact with them keeps you linked to the abuser and keeps the door of self doubt and guilt wide open.
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Hi all:
I wouldn't confuse a disordered person's intention with a mature adult's intention.
Ya know, that makes so much sense. I've never thought of that. What a good way to put it....auto pilot. Thanks Bunny.
I wouldn't retaliate or try to ruin their life, which is my way of being forgiving.
My way of being merciful is praying for the person/s and by trying my best to empathize and understand their behaviour. Forgiving is more for me than them and my way of doing that is by releasing my anger and resentment toward that person (in ways that don't harm anyone). Keeping those feelings inside me hurts me and doesn't effect them, so I forgive for rather selfish reasons. I wouldn't retaliate or try to ruin their life simply because I believe 2 wrongs do not make a right and because I believe it's not my place to exact revenge. I see retaliation as an act of malice/spiteful and not my cuppa. I just don't get how being cruel could possibly feel good. :shock: :?
Mud: I see your point about the law and it makes sense to apply that to life in general. If I could sue this person for slander, I would. Unfortunately, my abuser has/will continue to get away scot free in this life, I'm sure. It is frustrating and angering. I'm not in contact but the running off at the mouth...continues. There is no way to stop it so I just have to be patient, I guess, and wait for a higher court to make a decision, on judgement day. I have a feeling none of this will matter to me at that time. :mrgreen:
Hi Cat:
By backing away, I show them mercy by backing away from them. . and in the process I'm being merciful to me by putting up a boundary.
That's a really good way of thinking of it too Cat! Saving oneself contact with those who harm one is being merciful to oneself, I think. Thanks Cat.
Someone here made an excellent point about them making the conscious effort to shed people from their lives who believe the lies Ns spread or sympathize with them- the old " benefit of a doubt". I concur wholeheartedly. These people may have the best of intentions but if you keep them in your life they sabotage and undermine you. Contact with them keeps you linked to the abuser and keeps the door of self doubt and guilt wide open.
Thankyou Moira. You have just validated my reasons for ending a number of relationships and helped me to feel sane about doing that. Thankyou.
Sela
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Sela,
Unfortunately, my abuser has/will continue to get away scot free in this life, I'm sure. It is frustrating and angering. I'm not in contact but the running off at the mouth...continues. There is no way to stop it so I just have to be patient, I guess, and wait for a higher court to make a decision, on judgement day. I have a feeling none of this will matter to me at that time.
I don't think they are getting away scot free (does anyone know what that means :?). Just because some visually painful, awful thing has not happened to them, does not mean they are off the hook. IMO, they are people who will never know true love, true friends, true faith, true healing, and most of all true happiness. They have created pain and misery in our lives, but we can recover and go on to find all the good things in life. It may not happen, but the opportunity is there for us. It never will be for them. No matter what happens on judgment day, their life on earth will not have been fulfilling and whole.
Coming to this realization has allowed me to stop being angry at my xh's behavior. I have not forgiven it, and may never do that, but for now I have reached a point of neutrality and I am no longer drained by the anger. I also found that letting go of the anger allowed the next phase of grieving to take place which has been important to complete healing.
((((((((Sela))))))))))
Brigid
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I don't think they are getting away scot free (does anyone know what that means :?). Just because some visually painful, awful thing has not happened to them, does not mean they are off the hook. IMO, they are people who will never know true love, true friends, true faith, true healing, and most of all true happiness. They have created pain and misery in our lives, but we can recover and go on to find all the good things in life. It may not happen, but the opportunity is there for us. It never will be for them. No matter what happens on judgment day, their life on earth will not have been fulfilling and whole.
Coming to this realization has allowed me to stop being angry at my xh's behavior. I have not forgiven it, and may never do that, but for now I have reached a point of neutrality and I am no longer drained by the anger. I also found that letting go of the anger allowed the next phase of grieving to take place which has been important to complete healing.
from www.BrainyDictionary.com
scot free: Free from payment of scot; untaxed; hence, unhurt; clear; safe.
I agree with you Brigid. It was not until I realized that my wife's behavior hurt her far more than it ever hurt me, that I was able to forgive and move past the anger. I don't believe she is getting off scot free. She suffers the consequences every day until she decides to make a change, whether she is conscious of the consequences or not.
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I don't think they are getting away scot free (does anyone know what that means :?). Just because some visually painful, awful thing has not happened to them, does not mean they are off the hook. IMO, they are people who will never know true love, true friends, true faith, true healing, and most of all true happiness. They have created pain and misery in our lives, but we can recover and go on to find all the good things in life. It may not happen, but the opportunity is there for us. It never will be for them. No matter what happens on judgment day, their life on earth will not have been fulfilling and whole.
Coming to this realization has allowed me to stop being angry at my xh's behavior. I have not forgiven it, and may never do that, but for now I have reached a point of neutrality and I am no longer drained by the anger. I also found that letting go of the anger allowed the next phase of grieving to take place which has been important to complete healing.
Brigid
It's not scott free for my Nm, Nf and Nb either.
I've heard my Nm whine and whine about not ever having a relationship with me since I stopped contact with her in 1989. Except for the brief physical contact I had with my family in 1998 I have not seen them and truly conversed with them for over 15 years. My Nm favorite snub is "I've got such great relationships with all my daughter-in-laws." My response is nothing. I don't even go there. She absolutely can't see what she has done and is doing. She has lost so much - definitely not a scott free life for her. And my entire family is the same way.
I'm the only one in my family recovering from my Nparents' and Nbrother's far-reaching N claws.
I'll never forget what my middle brother's wife said to me once. "What happened in your family? Your brother is a real mess!" That brother is not N but has been squished and stifled. He's like my Nf in some ways, difficult time expressing emotion at any depth but does not have the N characteristics.
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Thankyou Brigid. You're right there too. Ofcourse there is no scot free when there is such sickness in the brain cells. That alone is a major loss...of a "normal" life, "normal" relationships, and as you say (most of all)....
they will never know true love, true friends, true faith, true healing, and most of all true happiness.
Makes me pity my abuser more. How sad. :( How truly sad. :( :(
I also found that letting go of the anger allowed the next phase of grieving to take place which has been important to complete healing.
I feel like I've let go of soooo much anger and like I am moving on in the process and then.......my abuser repeats the behaviour (eg. tells a lie to one of my children) and a whole new batch of anger is generated. It's not that I can't keep releasing it, letting it go but it is tiring to keep doing that over and over.
I guess I have to focus on thinking how pathetic and ill my abuser really is and maybe that will help me to skip feeling angry.
Hey Long! That is a cool link. 8) Added to my fav's.
Hi Itex!
She has lost so much.
Indeed she has. And so has my abuser in many regards. Thanks for reminding me.
The irony is that people who behave like N's supposedly have a huge fear of abandonment, so what do they do? Alienate!! They're their own worst enemy. :(
Sela
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Forgot to say...thankyou for the big hug (((((((Brigid)))))).
Sela
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from www.BrainyDictionary.com
scot free: Free from payment of scot; untaxed; hence, unhurt; clear; safe.
OK, I have to say I still don't know what it means. What is payment of scot? Is that a term for tax?
Sorry to be off topic, but I have always wondered about this.
Sela,
I feel like I've let go of soooo much anger and like I am moving on in the process and then.......my abuser repeats the behaviour (eg. tells a lie to one of my children) and a whole new batch of anger is generated. It's not that I can't keep releasing it, letting it go but it is tiring to keep doing that over and over.
I really sympathize with this and I know it must be very traumatic to keep being abused over and over. Even worse when it involves your children. I'm sure my anger would be much greater and harder to let go of in that situation. I'm very impressed with how forgiving you have been under the circumstances. I hope you can find a way to limit the contact your children can have with this person and the poison s/he infuses. Just imagine how much better off we all would be if people would just focus on their own lives rather than butting into ours. But then, I'm talking about healthy, normal folks who actually have lives of their own that don't feed off creating havoc with others.
Thanks for the hug :D. I can always use another one. Back at you . . . ((((((((Sela)))))))))
Brigid
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Thankyou ((((Brigid)))), for your kind words and another hug.
Unfortunately, there is no way to llimit contact. :x :(
Just imagine how much better off we all would be if people would just focus on their own lives rather than butting into ours. But then, I'm talking about healthy, normal folks who actually have lives of their own that don't feed off creating havoc with others.
Still.....it's nice to fantasize about! :D :D :D
Sela
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Hi Sela! Just a further comment on terminating relationships with those who continue to support and believe your n. I had a number of his acquaintances - not friends- he never had any- whom I liked and always thought of as potential friends for myself. I then quickly realized they were completely sucked in by him and expressed opinions that surely some of his allegations about me must be based in truth because " we were always such a happy couple and he's a helluva nice guy"!!! That's when it was clear I had to get rid of these people. The hardest one to axe is a friend of his whom I really like but he is completely supportive of my ex- although does believe most of my stories of abuse- he was also good friends with the former partner and heard exactly the same things. He is now proud my N got himself into therapy and drug rehab. My ex has ripped this guy off financially so many times, stayed briefly with him and almost wrecked his marriage, and he acknowledges that my ex has always been a liar. Yet he chooses to buy into the illusion of his " change...taking responsibility for his life and dealing with his addictions". That's when my decision to end the friendship became crystal clear. The really good thing for me now- kicked the N out 6 weeks ago- is that i'm now making friends with several new folks in my life who are healthy and already totally encourage and support me. No rationalization, no empathy at all for him. Very liberating and affirming!
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from www.BrainyDictionary.com
scot free: Free from payment of scot; untaxed; hence, unhurt; clear; safe.
OK, I have to say I still don't know what it means. What is payment of scot? Is that a term for tax?
Sorry to be off topic, but I have always wondered about this.
Brigid
My thersaurus says Scot-free is free from harm or penalty
Here's more:
Scot-free actually comes from scot, meaning 'an assessment or tax'. This word is a borrowing from Old Norse, perhaps from scot 'contribution' or a related word scattr 'tax; treasure'. It also seems to be related to Old English gescot 'shot', and there is also the possibility of the influence of Old French escot, which was itself borrowed from a Germanic source. Scot is first found in this sense in the early thirteenth century.
Scot-free originally meant 'free from payment of scot', a sense that is now almost totally obsolete, except in historical contexts. By extension, it came to mean 'free from obligation, harm, punishment, or restraint'. (Yes, the idea that a tax is a punishment is a very old one.) Since the word scot on its own is now rare, most people probably interpret scot to be some sort of intensive of free.
Scot-free, like scot itself, is first found in the thirteenth century. The broader use of the word is attested in the sixteenth century.
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ITExperiment,
Thank you for doing the work I should have been willing to do myself and getting me a more detailed explanation of the term. I appreciate the effort.
Brigid
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Hi all:
Hey Moira, I'm glad to hear this:
The really good thing for me now- kicked the N out 6 weeks ago- is that i'm now making friends with several new folks in my life who are healthy and already totally encourage and support me.
Surrounding oneself with positive and supportive people has got to help. Hope you make some really good friends/close friendships.
Personally, it seems like I have empathy for my abuser because I choose to. I'd feel too much like my abuser if I didn't. I wouldn't feel at all affirmed or liberated. I think I'd feel cruel, like my abuser and therefore sick/weak/trapped???
This is not to say that there is anything wrong with your choice. We are all different and we cope in different ways. I'm glad you ended that relationship and are now feeling so much better! That's such a good thing!! :D
Hey ITex: I had no idea about the meaning of scot free. Thanks for all the info. I love it when I learn what I jokingly call: useless bits of information. :D :D Thanks!
Sela :D
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Sela Wrote:
Then I think......what if.....about genes ?? And it helps me, some, to try to believe that the person can't help themselves. Then I battle the can't
I think I understand what you mean by the possibility that perhaps Ns are genetically prewired to exhibit N character traits. And, maybe, they can't help themselves for behaving like a N, because it is within their nature to be that way. If that was the case, then wouldn't also be correct to say that those who are kind and loving had no choice, but to act in a kind and loving manner consistently, b/c that is there nature? They cannot help it. They had no choice to act any other way. We all know that those who are kind-hearted can potentially act maliciously, given the right circumstance. We choose to be kind, just as much as an N chooses to be malicious.
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We choose to be kind, just as much as an N chooses to be malicious.
What makes a heart full of hate or a heart full of kindness, how does it get that way.
If a Kind-person has hurt from another, (N) what do you do to combat the hurt?
1. don't dwell on the hurt.
2. forgive, let it go
3. try and rationalize why this person would do this?
How does a heart/brain( out of the mouth speaks the heart) become full of hate?
1. Dwell on the hurt
2. don't forgive hold on to every hurt done to them, this turns into bitterness
then becomes hate. The hate turns into pain the pain is seen from hurtful words, doing horrible things to others etc.
3. There is no way to rationalize in a healthy way it's all someone elses fault, because of the hurt they caused and this hurt was never forgiven.
AT all cost these hardheaded difficult people should be avoided. ( I wish it was that easy for some)
Proverbs 9:7-8 he who corrects a scoffer gets shame for himself and he who rebuks a wicked man only harms himself. Do not correct a scoffer, lest he hate you.
Any thoughts about the verse.
OR
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Hi Butterfly (and all!):
...wouldn't also be correct to say that those who are kind and loving had no choice, but to act in a kind and loving manner consistently, b/c that is there nature?
I see your point and it is very logical. I would totally agree except that what I was wondering was what if it's the "choice" part of the gene stuff that's missing? In other words, if people who behave like N's, are equipped with enough social gear to act "reasonably normally" (let's say), in certain situations with certain people, but are driven to act "rather unreasonable and abnormally", when they feel most comfortable......around certain people, in certain situations and so the choice part is not really functioning the way it does for the average person (in other words they aren't really choosing to act but actually driven to react/or act by some unknown genetic factor?
The bottom line is.......for me......I've decided...it doesn't really matter whether my abuser acted by choice or some predisposition. The fact is....the actions occurred, they caused harm, there has been no remorse, no taking of responsibility, no attempts to make up for the damage done, as a matter of fact, the behaviour continues. I have decided to think of this person as ill/abnormal/sick/genetically challenged/unable to act reasonably normally toward me and that is all the explanation I need for now.
If I allow the idea that it hurts more because they acted by choice...continue to proliferate in my mind...then I will get no further ahead in my own healing and probably will allow the behaviour to hurt me more. It doesn't have to.
The person is sick and behaves in sick ways. Toward me. As Bunny and many of us have said....the way to protect ourselves is to distance ourselves. Well...I'm about as physically distanced as I can get for now but where I am not distanced enough is emotionally.....and mentally.
So...my new goal is to work on that. I'm packing up the silly thoughts that hurt and mentally, writing them on bits of paper, scrunching those papers up and putting them in trash bags. I plan on having a big bon fire and you're all invited!
Wanna come? I'm supplying the marshmallows and hot chocolate (on the next cool evening, after dark so the bugs will be gone to bed) 8).
This thread has really helped me to see that some of the things I was thinking were causing me more harm than good. The good thing is....I can work on fixing that if I want to and I do.
Thankyou ((((all))))
Sela :D
PS: Bring lawn chairs.
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OR wrote:
Proverbs 9:7-8 he who corrects a scoffer gets shame for himself and he who rebuks a wicked man only harms himself. Do not correct a scoffer, lest he hate you.
The first thought that comes to mind is, dealing with a person who has harden his heart towards others is a lose-lose situation. All you get in return is grief. So the best thing to do is distance yourself from them, b/c they are a hopeless case, imo.
I see your point and it is very logical. I would totally agree except that what I was wondering was what if it's the "choice" part of the gene stuff that's missing? In other words, if people who behave like N's, are equipped with enough social gear to act "reasonably normally" (let's say), in certain situations with certain people, but are driven to act "rather unreasonable and abnormally", when they feel most comfortable......around certain people, in certain situations and so the choice part is not really functioning the way it does for the average person (in other words they aren't really choosing to act but actually driven to react/or act by some unknown genetic factor?
I am left wondering why aren't there more N's in the world. Becoming an N should be the norm from growing up in an N household, right? So why are we the exceptions to the rule? What spared us from having the mindset of an N? No, need to answer these questions, they are merely random questions popping up.
This thread has really helped me to see that some of the things I was thinking were causing me more harm than good. The good thing is....I can work on fixing that if I want to and I do.
Awesome!!!
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Hiya Butterfly:
I am left wondering why aren't there more N's in the world. Becoming an N should be the norm from growing up in an N household, right?
That's exactly what makes me think there must be some genetics involved (besides the environmental influences).
What spared us from having the mindset of an N?
Maybe genetics??? :D :D :D
Awesome!!!
Thanks Butterfly. Still praying for you and hoping things are going better for you.
Sela
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hi there! I do believe there is evidence of a genetic component to Nism. some interesting research on actual differences in the brain with N's, anti social, sociopaths and psychopaths. They all know right from wrong. They appear not to be hard wired- like the majority of humans- for empathy etc. There is research that with the other above mentioned personality disorders- i'll exclude Ns for the moment- not enough research yet- they have different brain activity in response to emotion laden words. There's a world leading researcher in Vancouver BC Canada- Robert Hare- who has done extensive research on these brain differences. Fascinating results. He did many studies with " normal" test subjects and those with personality disorders. He showed all lists of words and asked them to press a buzzer when they felt angry or upset by a word. List included words like- rape, death, fire, blood etc. "Normal" people obviously reacted and pressed the button. Antisocial et al didn't react at all- those words had about as much impact on them as neutral words- like chair, sign etc. He did PET scans and MRI's etc and they showed for the antisocials etc. their brain activity was largely restricted to the primitive brain- like animals- centres governing survival, breathing etc. regular subjects had the normal brain actiivty in the frontal lobes and other spots which govern emotions etc. So...these folks operate from an insect brain- take what they want with no emotion or appreciation of consequences. There is also emerging research that usually where there is one N in a family, there will be more. Ns etc have no conscience so I believe their actions are more nature than nurture. No one can teach or instill another with/about a conscience. Ns et al do what they know , are aware there is something wrong with them but are totally incapable of change. With regards to a N raised in a loving family, they may learn not to do harmful things only because they learn if they are caught, there are consequences TO THEM. They don't get that this behaviour is destructive to others, they only care what will happen to THEM. I firmly believe this same type of research with N brains will show very similar results.
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These people mame and hurt others physically, emotionally and mentally. I have had a horrific experience with an XN that nearly cost me everything. I found out that this N has caused the same for many others. One woman nearly lost her life, and what of the children that are affected, this man has five kids three of whom are in therapy and has affected several others(step children) with his lying manipulating and womaninzing. I am thankful I will never have to deal with this again. I can only hope the next victim will be fortunate enough to heed the warning signs early.
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Sela wrote:
Still praying for you and hoping things are going better for you.
Thank you, Sela. It is very much needed. If you can specificly, plz pray for personal strength and not be suckered by guilt.