Conscious choice vs genetic predisposition in acts of spite and malice

[Sela]

Hi all:

I wouldn't confuse a disordered person's intention with a mature adult's intention.

Ya know, that makes so much sense.  I've never thought of that.  What a good way to put it....auto pilot.  Thanks Bunny.

I wouldn't retaliate or try to ruin their life, which is my way of being forgiving.

My way of being merciful is praying for the person/s and by trying my best to empathize and understand their behaviour.  Forgiving is more for me than them and my way of doing that is by releasing my anger and resentment toward that person (in ways that don't harm anyone).  Keeping those feelings inside me hurts me and doesn't effect them, so I forgive for rather selfish reasons.  I wouldn't retaliate or try to ruin their life simply because I believe 2 wrongs do not make a right and because I believe it's not my place to exact revenge.  I see retaliation as an act of malice/spiteful and not my cuppa.  I just don't get how being cruel could possibly feel good.

Mud:  I see your point about the law and it makes sense to apply that to life in general.  If I could sue this person for slander, I would.  Unfortunately, my abuser has/will continue to get away scot free in this life, I'm sure.  It is frustrating and angering.  I'm not in contact but the running off at the mouth...continues.  There is no way to stop it so I just have to be patient, I guess, and wait for a higher court to make a decision, on judgement day.  I have a feeling none of this will matter to me at that time.

Hi Cat:

By backing away, I show them mercy by backing away from them. . and in the process I'm being merciful to me by putting up a boundary.

That's a really good way of thinking of it too Cat!  Saving oneself contact with those who harm one is being merciful to oneself, I think.  Thanks Cat.

Someone here made an excellent point about them making the conscious effort to shed people from their lives who believe the lies Ns spread or sympathize with them- the old " benefit of a doubt". I concur wholeheartedly. These people may have the best of intentions but if you keep them in your life they sabotage and undermine you. Contact with them keeps you linked to the abuser and keeps the door of self doubt and guilt wide open.

Thankyou Moira.  You have just validated my reasons for ending a number of relationships and helped me to feel sane about doing that.  Thankyou.

Sela

[Brigid]

Sela,

Unfortunately, my abuser has/will continue to get away scot free in this life, I'm sure.  It is frustrating and angering.  I'm not in contact but the running off at the mouth...continues.  There is no way to stop it so I just have to be patient, I guess, and wait for a higher court to make a decision, on judgement day.  I have a feeling none of this will matter to me at that time.

I don't think they are getting away scot free (does anyone know what that means  ).  Just because some visually painful, awful thing has not happened to them, does not mean they are off the hook.  IMO, they are people who will never know true love, true friends, true faith, true healing, and most of all true happiness.  They have created pain and misery in our lives, but we can recover and go on to find all the good things in life.  It may not happen, but the opportunity is there for us.  It never will be for them.  No matter what happens on judgment day, their life on earth will not have been fulfilling and whole.

Coming to this realization has allowed me to stop being angry at my xh's behavior.  I have not forgiven it, and may never do that, but for now I have reached a point of neutrality and I am no longer drained by the anger.  I also found that letting go of the anger allowed the next phase of grieving to take place which has been important to complete healing.

((((((((Sela))))))))))

Brigid

[longtire]

I don't think they are getting away scot free (does anyone know what that means  ).  Just because some visually painful, awful thing has not happened to them, does not mean they are off the hook.  IMO, they are people who will never know true love, true friends, true faith, true healing, and most of all true happiness.  They have created pain and misery in our lives, but we can recover and go on to find all the good things in life.  It may not happen, but the opportunity is there for us.  It never will be for them.  No matter what happens on judgment day, their life on earth will not have been fulfilling and whole.

Coming to this realization has allowed me to stop being angry at my xh's behavior.  I have not forgiven it, and may never do that, but for now I have reached a point of neutrality and I am no longer drained by the anger.  I also found that letting go of the anger allowed the next phase of grieving to take place which has been important to complete healing.

from www.BrainyDictionary.com
scot free:  Free from payment of scot; untaxed; hence, unhurt; clear; safe.

I agree with you Brigid.  It was not until I realized that my wife's behavior hurt her far more than it ever hurt me, that I was able to forgive and move past the anger.  I don't believe she is getting off scot free.  She suffers the consequences every day until she decides to make a change, whether she is conscious of the consequences or not.

[Sallying Forth]

I don't think they are getting away scot free (does anyone know what that means  ).  Just because some visually painful, awful thing has not happened to them, does not mean they are off the hook.  IMO, they are people who will never know true love, true friends, true faith, true healing, and most of all true happiness.  They have created pain and misery in our lives, but we can recover and go on to find all the good things in life.  It may not happen, but the opportunity is there for us.  It never will be for them.  No matter what happens on judgment day, their life on earth will not have been fulfilling and whole.

Coming to this realization has allowed me to stop being angry at my xh's behavior.  I have not forgiven it, and may never do that, but for now I have reached a point of neutrality and I am no longer drained by the anger.  I also found that letting go of the anger allowed the next phase of grieving to take place which has been important to complete healing.

Brigid

It's not scott free for my Nm, Nf and Nb either.

I've heard my Nm whine and whine about not ever having a relationship with me since I stopped contact with her in 1989. Except for the brief physical contact I had with my family in 1998 I have not seen them and truly conversed with them for over 15 years. My Nm favorite snub is "I've got such great relationships with all my daughter-in-laws." My response is nothing. I don't even go there. She absolutely can't see what she has done and is doing. She has lost so much - definitely not a scott free life for her. And my entire family is the same way.

I'm the only one in my family recovering from my Nparents' and Nbrother's far-reaching N claws.

I'll never forget what my middle brother's wife said to me once. "What happened in your family? Your brother is a real mess!" That brother is not N but has been squished and stifled. He's like my Nf in some ways, difficult time expressing emotion at any depth but does not have the N characteristics.

[Sela]

Thankyou Brigid.  You're right there too.  Ofcourse there is no scot free when there is such sickness in the brain cells.  That alone is a major loss...of a "normal" life, "normal" relationships, and as you say (most of all)....

they will never know true love, true friends, true faith, true healing, and most of all true happiness.

Makes me pity my abuser more.  How sad.   How truly sad.

I also found that letting go of the anger allowed the next phase of grieving to take place which has been important to complete healing.

I feel like I've let go of soooo much anger and like I am moving on in the process and then.......my abuser repeats the behaviour (eg. tells a lie to one of my children) and a whole new batch of anger is generated.  It's not that I can't keep releasing it, letting it go but it is tiring to keep doing that over and over. 

I guess I have to focus on thinking how pathetic and ill my abuser really is and maybe that will help me to skip feeling angry.


Hey Long!  That is a cool link.   Added to my fav's. 

Hi Itex! 

She has lost so much.

Indeed she has.  And so has my abuser in many regards.  Thanks for reminding me.

The irony is that people who behave like N's supposedly have a huge fear of abandonment, so what do they do?  Alienate!!  They're their own worst enemy.

Sela

[Sela]

Forgot to say...thankyou for the big hug (((((((Brigid)))))).

Sela

[Brigid]

from www.BrainyDictionary.com
scot free:  Free from payment of scot; untaxed; hence, unhurt; clear; safe.

OK, I have to say I still don't know what it means.  What is payment of scot?  Is that a term for tax? 

Sorry to be off topic, but I have always wondered about this.

Sela,

I feel like I've let go of soooo much anger and like I am moving on in the process and then.......my abuser repeats the behaviour (eg. tells a lie to one of my children) and a whole new batch of anger is generated.  It's not that I can't keep releasing it, letting it go but it is tiring to keep doing that over and over.

I really sympathize with this and I know it must be very traumatic to keep being abused over and over.  Even worse when it involves your children.  I'm sure my anger would be much greater and harder to let go of in that situation.  I'm very impressed with how forgiving you have been under the circumstances.  I hope you can find a way to limit the contact your children can have with this person and the poison s/he infuses.  Just imagine how much better off we all would be if people would just focus on their own lives rather than butting into ours.  But then, I'm talking about healthy, normal folks who actually have lives of their own that don't feed off creating havoc with others.

Thanks for the hug  .  I can always use another one.   Back at you . . . ((((((((Sela)))))))))

Brigid

[Sela]

Thankyou ((((Brigid)))), for your kind words and another hug.

Unfortunately, there is no way to llimit contact.

Just imagine how much better off we all would be if people would just focus on their own lives rather than butting into ours.  But then, I'm talking about healthy, normal folks who actually have lives of their own that don't feed off creating havoc with others.

Still.....it's nice to fantasize about!

Sela

[Moira]

Hi Sela! Just a further comment on terminating relationships with those who continue to support and believe your n. I had a number of his acquaintances - not friends- he never had any- whom I liked and always thought of as potential friends for myself. I then quickly realized they were completely sucked in by him and expressed opinions that surely some of his allegations about me must be based in truth because " we were always such a happy couple and he's a helluva nice guy"!!! That's when it was clear I had to get rid of these people. The hardest one to axe is a friend of his whom I really like but he is completely supportive of my ex- although does believe most of my stories of abuse- he was also good friends with the former partner and heard exactly the same things. He is now proud my N got himself into therapy and drug rehab. My ex has ripped this guy off financially so many times, stayed briefly with him and almost wrecked his marriage, and he acknowledges that my ex has always been a liar. Yet he chooses to buy into the illusion of his " change...taking responsibility for his life and dealing with his addictions". That's when my decision to end the friendship became crystal clear. The really good thing for me now- kicked the N out 6 weeks ago- is that i'm now making friends with several new folks in my life who are healthy and already totally encourage and support me. No rationalization, no empathy at all for him. Very liberating and affirming!

[Sallying Forth]

from www.BrainyDictionary.com
scot free:  Free from payment of scot; untaxed; hence, unhurt; clear; safe.

OK, I have to say I still don't know what it means.  What is payment of scot?  Is that a term for tax? 

Sorry to be off topic, but I have always wondered about this.

Brigid

My thersaurus says Scot-free is free from harm or penalty

Here's more:
Scot-free actually comes from scot, meaning 'an assessment or tax'. This word is a borrowing from Old Norse, perhaps from scot 'contribution' or a related word scattr 'tax; treasure'. It also seems to be related to Old English gescot 'shot', and there is also the possibility of the influence of Old French escot, which was itself borrowed from a Germanic source. Scot is first found in this sense in the early thirteenth century.

Scot-free originally meant 'free from payment of scot', a sense that is now almost totally obsolete, except in historical contexts. By extension, it came to mean 'free from obligation, harm, punishment, or restraint'. (Yes, the idea that a tax is a punishment is a very old one.) Since the word scot on its own is now rare, most people probably interpret scot to be some sort of intensive of free.

Scot-free, like scot itself, is first found in the thirteenth century. The broader use of the word is attested in the sixteenth century.

[Brigid]

ITExperiment,
Thank you for doing the work I should have been willing to do myself and getting me a more detailed explanation of the term.  I appreciate the effort.

Brigid

[Sela]

Hi all:

Hey Moira, I'm glad to hear this:

The really good thing for me now- kicked the N out 6 weeks ago- is that i'm now making friends with several new folks in my life who are healthy and already totally encourage and support me.

Surrounding oneself with positive and supportive people has got to help.  Hope you make some really good friends/close friendships.

Personally, it seems like I have empathy for my abuser because I choose to.  I'd feel too much like my abuser if I didn't.  I wouldn't feel at all affirmed or liberated.  I think I'd feel cruel, like my abuser and therefore sick/weak/trapped???

This is not to say that there is anything wrong with your choice.  We are all different and we cope in different ways.   I'm glad you ended that relationship and are now feeling so much better!  That's such a good thing!!

Hey ITex:  I had no idea about the meaning of scot free.  Thanks for all the info.  I love it when I learn what I jokingly call:  useless bits of information.      Thanks!

Sela 

[Butterfly]

Sela Wrote:
Then I think......what if.....about genes ??  And it helps me, some, to try to believe that the person can't help themselves.  Then I battle the can't

I think I understand what you mean by the possibility that perhaps Ns are genetically prewired to exhibit N character traits.  And, maybe, they can't help themselves for behaving like a N, because it is within their nature to be that way.  If that was the case, then wouldn't also be correct to say that those who are kind and loving had no choice, but to act in a kind and loving manner consistently, b/c that is there nature?  They cannot help it.  They had no choice to act any other way.  We all know that those who are kind-hearted can potentially act maliciously, given the right circumstance.  We choose to be kind, just as much as an N chooses to be malicious. 

[OR]

 

We choose to be kind, just as much as an N chooses to be malicious. 

What makes a heart full of hate or a heart full of kindness, how does it get that way.

If a Kind-person has hurt from another, (N) what do you do to combat the hurt?

1. don't dwell on the hurt.
2. forgive, let it go
3. try and rationalize why this person would do this?


How does a heart/brain( out of the mouth speaks the heart) become full of hate?

1. Dwell on the hurt
2. don't forgive hold on to every hurt done to them, this turns into bitterness
then becomes hate. The hate turns into pain the pain is seen from hurtful words, doing horrible things to others etc.
3. There is no way to rationalize in a healthy way it's all someone elses fault, because of the hurt they caused and this hurt was never forgiven.


AT all cost these hardheaded difficult people should be avoided. ( I wish it was that easy for some)


Proverbs 9:7-8 he who corrects a scoffer gets shame for himself and he who rebuks a wicked man only harms himself. Do not correct a scoffer, lest he hate you. 


Any thoughts about the verse.

OR

[Sela]

Hi Butterfly (and all!):

...wouldn't also be correct to say that those who are kind and loving had no choice, but to act in a kind and loving manner consistently, b/c that is there nature?

I see your point and it is very logical.  I would totally agree except that what I was wondering was what if it's the "choice" part of the gene stuff that's missing?  In other words, if people who behave like N's, are equipped with enough social gear to act "reasonably normally" (let's say), in certain situations with certain people, but are driven to act "rather unreasonable and abnormally", when they feel most comfortable......around certain people, in certain situations and so the choice part is not really functioning the way it does for the average person (in other words they aren't really choosing to act but actually driven to react/or act by some unknown genetic factor?

The bottom line is.......for me......I've decided...it doesn't really matter whether my abuser acted by choice or some predisposition.  The fact is....the actions occurred, they caused harm, there has been no remorse, no taking of responsibility, no attempts to make up for the damage done, as a matter of fact, the behaviour continues.  I have decided to think of this person as ill/abnormal/sick/genetically challenged/unable to act reasonably normally toward me and that is all the explanation I need for now.

If I allow the idea that it hurts more because they acted by choice...continue to proliferate in my mind...then I will get no further ahead in my own healing and probably will allow the behaviour to hurt me more.  It doesn't have to.

The person is sick and behaves in sick ways.  Toward me.  As Bunny and many of us have said....the way to protect ourselves is to distance ourselves.  Well...I'm about as physically distanced as I can get for now but where I am not distanced enough is emotionally.....and mentally.

So...my new goal is to work on that.  I'm packing up the silly thoughts that hurt and mentally, writing them on bits of paper, scrunching those papers up and putting them in trash bags.  I plan on having a big bon fire and you're all invited!

Wanna come?  I'm supplying the marshmallows and hot chocolate (on the next cool evening, after dark so the bugs will be gone to bed) .

This thread has really helped me to see that some of the things I was thinking were causing me more harm than good.  The good thing is....I can work on fixing that if I want to and I do.

Thankyou ((((all))))

Sela 

PS:  Bring lawn chairs.