Conscious choice vs genetic predisposition in acts of spite and malice

[Sallying Forth]

Brigid, thankyou for all of your kind words and for taking the time to post your opinion.  Your 2 cents are worth a whole lot more to me.  And you're right....it is too easy to say they are miswired and they can't help themselves.  It's very easy to say.  I just don't know.  I just don't know if that really is the case or if it isn't and it's just something that I keep wondering about.  What if that is what it is?  (here I go with the what if's )  What if there is a wire missing?  What if, 50 years from now, the new know-how says these people can't help themselves?

I've always had a problem with "can't".  I don't like that word and I will often discard it and think "won't".  Most things are not "can't".  Most things are a choice.

The last paragraph sounds like it could be me writing it. This is where I get stuck too.  Isn't it a choice? I know with abusers it is a choice they make whether to abuse.

I believe N's development comes down to nature and nuture and (possibly external environment). I think bunny said this?

I can see that in my Nm's family. There was very sick stuff going on there which literally turned deadly for my Nm's Nm (Ngrandmother). My Ngm died as a result of her behavior perpetrated on her son. No nuture and his nature became a deadly force unleashed upon his Nm. My uncle's diagnosis was unknown but I guess something like Narcissistic Sociopath or Psychopath??? would be appropriate today. He was declared criminally insane.

Then there is the volatile addition to a N's already abusive behavior - becoming an Abuser too. Lundy Bancroft's book Why Does He Do That? is one book where I've seen someone address when a N becomes an Abuser. Lundy catagorizes this abuser type among the mentally ill and addicted abuser. He says, the N's "condition is highly compatible with abusiveness ... This disorder is highly resistant to therapy and is not treatable with medication. The Abuser with this disorder is not able to change substantially through an abuser program either, although he sometimes makes some minor improvements."_p103 He says these abusers account for a small percentage of abusive men.

N Abusers seem to be more prevalent in the news these days.

A N Abuser does have a choice whether to abuse.


I mull over and over in my mind why my Nm couldn't go to counseling and look at her childhood. It doesn't seem to matter what the books say about why she wouldn't. I can't see that she did the best job she could as a parent if she refused to look into herself. She made a choice there.  That's where I get stuck in the "can't."

That was a definite choice my Nm made. That decision makes me favor N having a choice.

Maybe they don't choose to change because like abusers they get too many benefits and rewards/entitlements for their behavior? That is the reason most abusers wont change, the benefits and entitlements outweigh the benefits of change. They like their status. They can learn empathy but they don't.

These people have no morals, it seems.  How can one act morally without morals?

Like S. Peterson? The judge said "you have no moral rudder." And called him a N Sociopath?

My H says "you can't legislate morals." I agree with that. If it isn't a choice to act and behave in morally acceptable ways a person will return to their behavior.

I read an interesting article from a monthly newsletter I receive. It said that everyone of us is born with the knowledge of right and wrong.

So something happens to a person's moral rudder when a particular type of person grows up in a N home?

My therapist believes that the more a society becomes technologically advanced, the more healthy relationship structures fail.

So N could be caused by nature, nuture and external environment?

I have been through the worst nightmare I can imagine any mother having to face, other than having their child murdered.  I'm grateful that I have not been challenged to withstand the worst.

I'm so sorry. ((((((((((Sela)))))))))

But in the N's case?  Something's missing?  It is said no one can cure them.  They can't feel empathy.   My guess is they feel hopeless, deep inside???

The more I read, the more I believe they probably feel the same as I have; diminished, non-existent, like a speck. Yet they fight against anything which would bring those feelings to the surface. My Nbro's true self was most likely diminished by not becoming the person he was meant to be.

I guess the feeling I'm trying to describe my true self is annihilated or extinguished. I don't like those words but it best describes the overall feeling I have.

Must not there be true sickness in a person who gets emotional gratification from vindictive or spiteful acts against other?

My H's ex is like this. I don't believe she's a N (could be). She was angry about the child custody situation and thought her ex was thinking/acting the same way (and that everybody acts like her - oops sounds more like a N ). She'd do strange things to "pay back."

I'm still confused.  It hurts more to think my abuser acted with malice and spite and I do think that.  Then I feel sad, angry, betrayed, beilittled, abused and ashamed of that person's behaviour.  Then I think......what if.....about genes ??  And it helps me, some, to try to believe that the person can't help themselves.  Then I battle the can't word again.
No matter what I do feel pity. 

Sela

At this point I feel mostly sadness. There's some shock/anger at times for the far reaching impact on my life.

I have no pity for my Nparents and Nbro and that feels strange. Or maybe not??? Pity for me is about sharing the suffering of or compassion for or commiserating with my Nparents and Nbrother. I definitely don't feel that way towards any of them. It might change. Then again it might not. I can't commiserate with or share in their suffering. Compassion? Possibly some day.

However for now and in the future it is keeping distance from them. I'm going to change some of that as well and have stronger boundaries. Years ago my therapist said that some parents don't deserve to have our attention. They are too toxic.

Thanks for interesting and thought provoking topic, Sela.

[OR]

Bunny, You have such deep insite to the difficult people in our lives, so lucky to have you here.
These Crazy people need skilled help along with the kids and all other family members.

That takes skill and most of us don't have the skill nor do we want to do it. So that leaves avoidance as the optimal idea. This does not erase pity, mercy, or compassion. Those things are all part of what I'm talking about. If you can accept that a person acts hatefully BECAUSE their internal template is that of hate and terror, then you can understand everything

The courts in CA could make me come back to CA because my H wants to fight for custody of our D.
I have our D seeing a T, she needs training from the skilled to understand how to deal with the crazy stuff.

It would be great if my H would leave us alone, his motivation is the money she gets from his SSI.
He thinks it's HIS not hers. We didn't know he was collecting it before we left CA, he was going to leave us both, I think at the end he figured he had to prove she was with him to collect her SSI. 

That SSI just stopped this month because he went back to WC after his surgery .
Now I have to pay back that SSI because he never told them he was on WC and should not have been receiving any SSI during this time.
He went to the office made a lot of effort to  tell them I kidnapped her and the money stopped.
He could have told them then he was also getting WC but he did not. 
I'm thinking  maybe with the WC money he would be happy, he doesn't have to share that.
It might be like the monkey seeing the shinny thing and all he wants to care about. 

The courts not matter what conditions his mental state is in want their money back.
I don't know if they prosecute for the lies, for now I have to pay back the money she received and he would too.
He can't say he was not able to notify them because he let them know he wanted the money we were receiving to stop. He made a choice to hurt, attack and had no care if his daughter had food.
He is a TRUE SELF-ABSORBED N.

Should he be punished for not telling the SSI?
He has no "moral rutter" didn't care if his daughter had food.
He has a MONKEY BRAIN!   He needs his leasons learned like a monkey, I have no skills to train a monkey.
These Monkey brains can be motivated and have an agenda not easily broken.

The harm done by the lies he has told now not only to me our D both our families the courts and GOV. Where does it stop?
I know MERCY would be to keep the N from doing more harm, and GRACE from the courts would be to keep us far away from his MONKEY BRAIN ways "DON"T make us the SHINNY THING in his life."

God wants the pure in heart, so if the brain feeds the heart speaking lies, doing hate to others, attacking over and over with hurtful ways, the heart would be weak and empty ready to drop fast right into HELL.
If the heart is full of lies from a defective brain, GOD would know this and what is true in a mans heart.

I must do the safe thing for now and leave the battle for the heart/brain with GOD.


Thanks for reading....OR
 

[bunny]

OR,

Your husband is a textbook sociopath (and possibly a psychopath). This is a super-pathological narcissist. A sociopath will lie, cheat, and steal from their own child and it is as natural as breathing to them. They have no ability to form a conscience. That part is missing. They enjoy conning, hustling, and cheating from anyone who has something they want. No exceptions. A real sociopath is extremely dangerous and highly destructive. So in the case of your husband, my primary strategy would be, "How can I separate our finances and financial responsibilities as quickly as possible?!!!" Is your BIL helping you with an attorney? I'm sorry, I haven't totally kept up with your situation.

bunny

[dogbit]

I think it is easier on us to feel that they have a mental illness than to deal with the fact that they had choices and chose to use us as their receptacle for their anger and shame.  Once they have chosen to use us, we are on the defensive.  We have to explain ourselves to the world.  Why did we put up with this for so long.  Is it really true that we are defective and are the cause of the "abusers" anger and denigration of ourselves.???  It's a win-win situation for them for the short term.

[Stormchild]

I watched my sibling grow up N, and I had lots and lots of chances to compare the way my parents treated each of us at key points in our growing up.

I was the firstborn and kept on a VERY tight rein. Also, my Nmother disliked me probably from the moment I began to express enough personality for her to see I was more like my father than like her. My Nsib was spoiled rotten from the cradle, and blatantly favored by my Nmother.

I saw thefts go unpunished (especially if my Nsib stole from me). I saw my Nsib tell my parents to go ---- themselves and then demand money from them five minutes later and get it... now, this was 40 years ago, when it wasn't considered 'cool' to tell people to ---- themselves, it was still considered horribly rude [which it is, social 'fashions' be damned].

I saw my Nsib encouraged by my Nmom to scavenge coins from vending machines, take money from lost wallets before turning them in, etc. etc. etc. -- to all of which my enabling father turned a blind eye. Meanwhile, both parents were severely strict with me. It's as though I got the discipline I should have had, but also the discipline my Nsib should have had.

My Nmom's family acted just like my Nmom, and my father's family rarely ever saw us, and when they did, they basically ignored the kids, except for my grandparents, who were in total denial about my sibling.

I think there was a sweet little kid in my Nsib's body for about three or four years. I saw a human being looking out of those eyes then, and from time to time later on, but less and less often as we both got older. But by the time my Nsib was four or five, it was clear to me that there was a very calculating, scheming little manipulator in there, taking over everything. To which my father was deliberately blinding himself, and which my Nmother was rewarding and encouraging.

I didn't know at the time my mother was N, of course. But I knew my sibling was dishonest and conniving, and being rewarded for it, while I was being punished for everything my sibling did, essentially [in other words, my sibling would break a vase. Nothing was done. I would then come in five minutes late from playing outside, and be grounded for a week. I knew this was a displacement reaction, even though I didn't have the words for it. It was clear to me that my parents were mad about the vase and wanted to punish somebody and that they weren't about to punish the wrongdoer. And just for the record, I called them on it, every time, from the instant I first saw clearly what was going on. This didn't sink in with them, of course, but it probably kept me from becoming psychotic, or developing severe reactive depression.]

This is a longwinded way of saying I think Ns are made, but the material to make them from is present in all of us. If I'd been the spoiled, indulged pet, taught to scheme and manipulate others, I'd probably be the Nsib, and my Nsib would be here posting, instead of me. I mean... our mothers are supposed to love us, right? So if I'd been 'loved' by my Nmother, it would have been for being what my sibling turned out to be... dishonest, manipulative, greedy, etc., from a very young age.

Could my Nsib change? Oh definitely. There was a period when my Nsib was in therapy and seemed to be developing some genuine insight. But... along with the lying and greed, my Nsib is lazy as hell. And I think it was just too much work for them, to rearrange their opinions and see who their real enemy was, all that time. And it was so much more fun to support my Nmother in slandering me, etc. So... there's no doubt in my mind that my Nsib chose, and chose, and chose again to be N.

I saw my Nmother choose too. She was one of the most savage racists I have ever known, and she enjoyed it. Which is stupid as well as evil, because she was 1/4 ethnic minority, and 1/2 apostate Jewish [immigrant grandparents who converted, I don't know why] and she was closest to and best loved by the grandparent who was of another race, when she was a little girl. I'd point this out to her, and she'd admit it was true, and two seconds later she'd be back at the Klan meeting, in her mind at least.

[longtire]

He has a MONKEY BRAIN!   He needs his leasons learned like a monkey, I have no skills to train a monkey.

  I laughed and laughed. 

[OR]

Hey long, you made me happy I made you laugh.

MONKEY BRAIN ways "DON"T make us the SHINNY THING in his life."

I feel like a moving target and a very shinny thing right now.

If Monkey Man will take his money and leave me alone I would be happy.
My friend from CA tells me she saw him riding his bike.
This is after the e-mail I got telling me how sick he was and I was going to cause him heart failure, how he was paralized on one side of his body  and I would cause him a stroke with all the stress.
She said he looked fine and peddled the bike with no problem. 

I'm so gald I'm not in the same state or town like you are Longtire, I would imagine seeing the same places would be more difficult to let go.

Bunny, I looked up the word sociopath/physcopath not good. I understand why you would see this with all the lies and no care about how it affects others.

Your husband is a textbook sociopath (and possibly a psychopath). This is a super-pathological narcissist. A sociopath will lie, cheat, and steal from their own child

There is a list of functioning sociopaths and others who went to jail like Ted Bundy, Jeffrey Dommer,
you know the type.
not to say my H would ever kill anyone, but the recipie is there and if the same recipie is there I would hate to think some one I have know for 28yrs could now be ready to do something terrible to his family is so so scary.

At this point I don't have a lawyer, one wrote me yesterday and said with mediation no lawyers are involved.
It's the parents only.  I do have 32 pages of e-mails admits to lies about money and other information for the judge to review on the OSC for 8/1. 

I have to go will write later


Take care .........OR

[Sela]

Hi Stormy:

What I mean by selfish is that maybe I'm only concerned with being merciful in order to justify asking for mercy for myself?  Or maybe I'm beating myself up about stupid stuff because doesn't everyone hope for mercy?

Feel free to disagree with me here. But I think he was saying that we are finite, even though goodness itself is not. We are time limited, we become exhausted, we get used up. And for that reason, we shouldn't waste our best.... especially on the worst.

I agree with you.  And I feel like I've given a pearl to a swine.  That pearl was trust.

...there's an emotional component to the rejecting of the thing or person that is judged, kind of an 'ick factor'. When a person discerns, the result might be the same [it's a waste of my time to interact with X, they are abusive] but it comes from a detached place, there isn't the 'ick' aspect to it.

I haven't shown and don't feel contempt or disdain and I don't despise my abuser so by your definition of judging....vs discerning.....I guess I haven't judged.  I have distanced myself from this person.  Thanks for pointing this out Stormy.  It helps.

So I think that bit about the pearls and the piggies has to do with discerning where to spend our limited lifetime supply of goodness and mercy, in order to have it do the most good - for both the recipient and for us. And we're being advised not to waste it. And I honestly think that if we can withdraw our investment of time and treasure from someone who has abused us, in a detached way so that it comes from discernment rather than judgment of the person, then we are still in a position to show them mercy. We're not trying to hurt them, we still wish them good... but any good that comes to them is no longer going to be paid for with our tears. And in that way, we are finally showing mercy to ourselves.

That's a really good way to think of it.  I think I'll print that out and read it over and over until it sinks in.  Really, it doesn't matter whether or not their behaviour was a conscious choice or not.  It hurt me and I need to protect myself....show myself mercy, I guess, by adjusting my thinking.  I'm giving my abuser's intention too much power..the power to hurt more.  The fact is there were acts of spite and malice which hurt.  Thanks Stormy.  Somehow your words made me realize this.

Hi Brigid:   

If they truly have no control over their behavior, why the HELL are we allowing them to fly airplanes, run large corporations, deliver babies, and transplant hearts.  How can they be capable of those very important jobs, but not be able to control the way they behave toward certain individuals?  Is the brain that selective that the presence of a particular person will send off signals to this n individual to start acting like an a$$hole and they can't help themselves?

These are very good points.  Thankyou Brigid.  You've helped me too.  My abuser is a high school teacher and you're right....my abuser is pretty selective and does seem to have control over when and toward whom to act with spite and malice.  I am the one who is despised and held in contempt by this person.  The wiring in that brain works very well so often.  It almost seems silly to think of their behaviour toward me as some genetic predisposition.

Hi Bunny:

So that leaves avoidance as the optimal idea. This does not erase pity, mercy, or compassion.

If you can accept that a person acts hatefully BECAUSE their internal template is that of hate and terror, then you can understand everything.

These two sentences hit home Bunny.  Thanks.  You're so right.  My abuser's template is one of hate and terror so I do understand why this person acts hatefully (and is paranoid also).  I am distanced from the person and by doing that I have not erased pity, mercy or compassion.  But I was taking the behaviour more personally than necessary.  Maybe it's what I represent that my abuser is so spiteful of and acts so maliciously against?  That's why there was so much envy and jealousy, prior to those acts and probably contributing to those acts. 

If you could detach from the abuser, and not feel their shame, or feel connected to their behavior even as their victim, but see yourself as a projection screen that you can leave standing and go away from it, I think your confusion will minimize.

What a great way to look at it.  Thankyou Bunny.  Thinking adjustment in progress.

Hi ITex:

Maybe they don't choose to change because like abusers they get too many benefits and rewards/entitlements for their behavior? That is the reason most abusers wont change, the benefits and entitlements outweigh the benefits of change.

Maybe?  And maybe they're too terrified to admit their behaviour is malicious and spiteful and maybe they hate themselves for it but the idea of saying so is also terrifying?

I'm so sorry. ((((((((((Sela)))))))))

Thankyou ITex.  The good news is I'm surviving and trying my best to thrive.   I refuse to give up hope.

I guess the feeling I'm trying to describe my true self is annihilated or extinguished. I don't like those words but it best describes the overall feeling I have.

I think I know what you mean and I have felt that way myself but I have since decided that my flame was just made really, really small but it never went out.  This place is like oxygen.

However for now and in the future it is keeping distance from them. I'm going to change some of that as well and have stronger boundaries. Years ago my therapist said that some parents don't deserve to have our attention. They are too toxic.

Good for you ITex!  I'm glad your T is so supportive too!  Spit out the poison!!

Thanks for interesting and thought provoking topic, Sela.

Thankyou for reading and thankyou for posting and thankyou for saying that.  I really appreciate it.

Hi OR:

These Monkey brains can be motivated and have an agenda not easily broken.

A spiteful and malicious agenda.

God wants the pure in heart, so if the brain feeds the heart speaking lies, doing hate to others, attacking over and over with hurtful ways, the heart would be weak and empty ready to drop fast right into HELL.
If the heart is full of lies from a defective brain, GOD would know this and what is true in a mans heart.

Thankyou OR.  For me this has been a spiritual question (the topic of this thread) even though it is also a sort of scientific one.  But your words are very true.  God knows what's behind the acts...whether it be genetic or conscious choice.  You're really hit the nail for me.  It's not up to me to worry about, is it?

I must do the safe thing for now and leave the battle for the heart/brain with GOD.

You are so wise, OR.  I think it's time I did the same thing.  Thankyou.

Hey again Stormy:

This is a longwinded way of saying I think Ns are made, but the material to make them from is present in all of us.

I'm so sorry your parents showed such favoritism toward your sibbling and I'm proud of your attitude of sort of....better your sib than you... and for recognizing that you have not learned to be selfish and disrespectful and nasty, dishonest, manipulative and greedy, and all the rest and you seem grateful for that.  Good for you Stormy!!

Hiya Dogbittles: 

I think it is easier on us to feel that they have a mental illness than to deal with the fact that they had choices and chose to use us as their receptacle for their anger and shame.

When I really think about what you wrote, and what has been bothering me, I now see that both of these are true.  They do have a mental illness....they have to...in order to enjoy what they do or even to do it and keep doing it.  And we are the chosen receptacles.   I have tended to think...why me?  What did I do to deserve this?  What's wrong with me?

But that's really not really it.  These people will always choose someone to use as a projection screen (as Bunny put it.....thanks again Bunny).  We just happen to be convenient or handy.

  Once they have chosen to use us, we are on the defensive.  We have to explain ourselves to the world.  Why did we put up with this for so long.  Is it really true that we are defective and are the cause of the "abusers" anger and denigration of ourselves.???

I've berated myself this way too and I came to the conclusion that I tolerated certain abuses because I wanted the impossible.....I wanted a kind, considerate, respectful, honourable relationship with the person and kept trying to do, say, be the right things....to please this person.  This is impossible when there is such sickness present in the other person.  They will never be pleased with our trying to please them.  Their pleasure seems to come from the power they have to intice us to please.  We certainly didn't cause our abuser's anger and that denigration.  The defect I decided I had was to keep trying for something that was futile.  Not so bad, really.  I'd like not to repeat that and I regret being a puppet for so long but I didn't try to harm I tried to do some good things.  If this person was not family I would never have bothered. 

It's a win-win situation for them for the short term.

Only if we allow ourselves to feel like we've done something to deserve such treatment or to think that there is something bad or wrong about us.  If we go on to live good, happy lives, despite these "monkeys" (thanks OR), if we work to get the joy back in our lives, we win and they are left in their pathetic state of searching for new screens to project upon and for some way to purge the template of hate and terror.

Is this helping you Dogbittles?  It really has helped me.  Thankyou ((((((all)))))).  I feel much better.

  Sela

PS:  Good for you OR for not losing your sense of humour and for treading on, regardless of fear!  My prayers are still for you and your D (especially on that day of court coming up fast!).

[mudpuppy]

Hi Sela and everyone,

The motivation of the abuser only matters to me to this extent; if he is abusing me through a conscious choice then I need to forgive that person, and it would help me whether to decide to seek restitution for the damage that person has done.
If the person is without choice because their mnd is so diseased as to be non functional regarding choices between right or wrong, then there is nothing to forgive, malice was not involved.
Christ told us to love and forgive our enemies. A person without malice toward me is not my enemy.

Maybe this works as an example.
If a schizophrenic punches me in the nose because he thinks he's Napolean and I'm Wellington, then I'm neither going to prosecute nor sue the guy. I would hope the authorities provide him with some help.

If on the other hand, an N punches me in the nose because he wishes to harm me for my refusal to assist him in some immoral undertaking and he has calculated he can get away with it, then I most assuredly will seek justice and restitution. I will also begin work on forgiving this person.

If Ns were so out of control as to be not able to make a conscious choice between right and wrong then it seems there would be no limit to their whacko behavior, just like a schizophrenic. But there are very sharp limits to what they say and do. They very cunningly do only things they think they will help them.

Compassion. mercy and forgiveness are all possible while still acknowledging the personal responsibility of the N and seeking some form of justice for their behavior.

mudpup

[Sela]

Hiya Mud:

The motivation of the abuser only matters to me to this extent; if he is abusing me through a conscious choice then I need to forgive that person, and it would help me whether to decide to seek restitution for the damage that person has done.
If the person is without choice because their mnd is so diseased as to be non functional regarding choices between right or wrong, then there is nothing to forgive, malice was not involved.

For me, if my abuser has intention of hurting me, there is an additional thing to forgive.  The actions still occurred and caused hurt (which can be forgiven).  The intention behind the action, in other words..action that was  intended to cause hurt vs not intended (mistake), count in my book as something separate (right word??) to forgive.

Intention to commit harm seems like an additional choice, along side the actual action.  I will never know the truth about my abuser's intention, I doubt, but I do/did experience the result/s of the actions.   Those acts hurt me regardless of intention.

In most situations and for most people here, my bet is there is little chance of seeking justice or restitution.  That's a good thing for you Mud, at least you can do that!  I'm glad you can!

The rest of us will have to settle for going on with our lives and being happy regardless of our abuser's actions.  I'm still hoping for that and working toward that and really believe it will happen.

That is the healing I hope for all here.

Sela

[bunny]

Intention to commit harm seems like an additional choice, along side the actual action.  I will never know the truth about my abuser's intention, I doubt, but I do/did experience the result/s of the actions.   Those acts hurt me regardless of intention.

I wouldn't confuse a disordered person's intention with a mature adult's intention. A personality-disordered individual does not have the same route of intention. They are more on auto-pilot, operating from primitive (infantile) templates that they have never reflected on, unconscious motives, lack of impulse control, severely distorted, hostile, punitive, enraged, terrorized internal objects. I could accept and forgive their impairment. However I might hate them for what they do. And I would definitely avoid them. I wouldn't retaliate or try to ruin their life, which is my way of being forgiving.

bunny

[mudpuppy]

Hi Bunny,

They are more on auto-pilot, operating from primitive (infantile) templates that they have never reflected on, unconscious motives, lack of impulse control,............................. severely distorted, hostile, punitive, enraged, terrorized internal objects.

I agree with the last part of that statement. They have all sorts of internal rage, hostility etc.

The first part I have a harder time accepting. With my own eyes and ears, I've observed the planning, the waiting for the right opportunity, the weighing of costs vs benefits, the pulling back when over-extended, the calculated saccharine charm, the elaborate set ups.
The Ns I've know have never been on auto pilot and  have extreme impulse control.(usually)
Nor have they never reflected on their infantile templates. I think they reflect on them all the time, and I think they may even try to change them. But like a hopeless addict they always succumb to the immediate gratification of tearing someone else down to build themselves up.

Hi to you too Sela,

The action to me is utterly irrelevant.
If a guy hits an unseen nail on the road, has a blowout, loses control and totals my car, I'm not going to forgive him because there's nothing to forgive.
If a guy drinks eight gin and fizzes and totals my car then I'm going to need to forgive him because he was irresponsible.
Even more so, if a guy exhibits hostility toward me because of his inner anger and hatred and intentionally totals my car and would have been quite happy to injure me if he could get away with it, I have even more to forgive.

I know Dickens said the law is a ass, but I believe the way homicide is treated by the law illustrates things pretty well.
Accidental homicide is often not prosecuted.
Negligent homicide usually involves a light sentence.
Homicide on the spur of the moment a stiffer penalty.
Cold blooded, planned murder, often the ultimate penalty.
Homicide by somebody so crazy as not to know right from wrong usually receives a trip to the nuthouse not the pen.
I think the law makes a quite proper distinction in just how much a killer owes to society based on his intentions. And I make those same distinctions when dealing with people who cause me harm.

Justice and restitution do not make victims happy. They don't take the destruction away or the memory of it. They just give a little satisfaction that evil doesn't always get away scot free.


mudpup

[cat]

Sela - I understand what you're saying about mercy.  You want to make sure you give it - so that in return, mercy will be granted back to you.

I've also seen some quotes here from the Bible.  I think that being merciful is a good thing.  However, there are times to step in and give mercy - and there are times to step away.  In my life I've found that stepping away from a person or situation causes me to be a bit more clear toward the person or situation.

I know the quote "casting pearls before swine" - but I also know there have been inferences of prayer toward changing my heart.  I think that mercy may be common sense - putting myself in the other person's place and determining their situation.  If after putting myself in the other person's place to figure out their situation - and they're just being mean - back away.  By backing away, I show them mercy by backing away from them. . and in the process I'm being merciful to me by putting up a boundary.

Just a thought process after all I've been through these past two months.  Cat

[bunny]

The first part I have a harder time accepting. With my own eyes and ears, I've observed the planning, the waiting for the right opportunity, the weighing of costs vs benefits, the pulling back when over-extended, the calculated saccharine charm, the elaborate set ups.
The Ns I've know have never been on auto pilot and  have extreme impulse control.(usually)
Nor have they never reflected on their infantile templates. I think they reflect on them all the time, and I think they may even try to change them. But like a hopeless addict they always succumb to the immediate gratification of tearing someone else down to build themselves up.

mud,

If the person is sociopathic they will definitely calculate what they're doing. This is still part of an internal template where the person never developed a normal superego. So I take them as disturbed individuals who are sick. Basically I will stay out of their way and never trust them. I might forgive them but it wouldn't change my behavior one iota.

bunny

[Moira]

Hi all! very interesting topic. I agree not enough research done yet on NPD. I believe and there is emerging evidence to back this up, that there is a genetic component to NPD and I also believe down the road there will be proven brain changes in frontal lobe and chemistry. That being said, I think most Ns know deep down inside there is something wrong or different about/with them. My ex N used to say sometimes he " felt estranged from the world...different...empty". I firmly believe all Ns are filled with self loathing, hatred and fear. The majority of Ns, other personality disordered people, incl. anti social, sociopaths etc do know right from wrong. They simply don't think rules apply at all to them. They know what they're doing is considered " wrong" by the world, they don't care unless they get caught- and then they care only about what THEY have to suffer in consequence. If we look at their abuse and say, oh, they don't know what they're doing- we're opening the door for empathy and rationalization for their terrorism. It's a foreign concept for majority of us to believe that evil does exist and that there are real monsters parading around in flesh suits.A trump card for predators and parasites. I don't believe for a minute that Ns realize at any point they need to change themselves and it's impossible to grow a conscious. They thrive on chaos and pain- that is their sole form of communicating and they simply do what they know- kind of like sharks- the perfect killing machines. Someone here made an excellent point about them making the conscious effort to shed people from their lives who believe the lies Ns spread or sympathize with them- the old " benefit of a doubt". I concur wholeheartedly. These people may have the best of intentions but if you keep them in your life they sabotage and undermine you. Contact with them keeps you linked to the abuser and keeps the door of self doubt and guilt wide open.