Conscious choice vs genetic predisposition in acts of spite and malice

[Sela]

Yesterday, in the thread "Nervous Breakdown", Mud and I were having a discussion about some of my stuff.  I didn't want to keep highjacking that thread (so sorry Zeene) so I'm starting a new topic here.

Last night I kept thinking about the last part of that conversation with Mud.  I had written:

Surely people aren't punished for having diseases and for acting due to disease processes?

And Mud wrote back:

Well, lets call it a 'free will-disease'.  They may be predisposed to mistreat people, but every act of spite and malice is still a conscious choice between right and wrong, with the full knowledge they are harming others.  Presumably that's why a PD is not a legal defense.

(Hope you don't mind me quoting you here Mud.  What you said really got me thinking and I want to see what other people think).

In my case, I really think my abuser had intentions and set out to harm me but the fact is, I have no clue what is really going on in that brain and I don't know for sure that it was conscious choice made under free will, in spite and malice.

I have a hard time believing that N is only caused by environmental factors because I grew up in a really nasty environment and I'm fairly sure I'm not NPD and fairly sure that at least one of my sibblings, is.  If NPD is simply due to environment then everyone growing up with such parents would repeat the cycle, right?

Therefore, it seems there must be a bit of a genetic influence happening ......specifically....the inheritence of some predisposition of certain behaviours (eg. lying)....at the very minimum.

In the following article: http://www.nimh.nih.gov/press/williamspathway.cfm

it is stated that the medial area of the prefrontal cortex of the brain has been associated with empathy and regulation of negative emotion.  It goes on to describe how MRI's showed that this area of the brain can clearly "play a major role in producing social behavioral abnormalities".

What if.......certain things haven't been discovered yet?  Is it possible that the nasty behaviours demonstrated by people who behave like N's might be linked to genetic abnormalties/predisposition and that conscious choice may not actually be all that conscious but rather.....an abnormal response caused by some real messed up stuff in the brain?

Why am I having such a hard time swallowing that my abuser intended to harm me?  It seemed so obvious and I even think this is so?  But I don't know.....I am just guessing/assuming/concluding and the only evidence I have is the behaviour itself....and the pain it caused me.

Do these people really have free will and make conscious choices to act spitefully and with malice?
Or are their brain wires so frigged up that they truely just act without thinking and without being able to empathize with those they act against?  They can certainly act nicely when it suits them.

I've read that NPD is a fairly new concept being explored in more depth.  Surely there is more to learn about it all.  I guess my problem is that the behaviour of my abuser certainly hurt me but I don't want to judge unfairly and if this behaviour is due to a diseased wire-job, rather than a conscious choice .....then I am inclined to have pity more than anything (which may or may not be healthy for me??? ).  It just seems unfair to decide my abuser has free will, if there might be another explanation.  It would be like being upset with someone for being diabetic...as if they could choose to produce and release insulin appropriately and as if they had free choice to make their pancreas function properly.

Does anyone else struggle with this?

Sela

[bunny]

Do these people really have free will and make conscious choices to act spitefully and with malice?
Or are their brain wires so frigged up that they truely just act without thinking and without being able to empathize with those they act against?  They can certainly act nicely when it suits them.

I've read that NPD is a fairly new concept being explored in more depth.  Surely there is more to learn about it all.  I guess my problem is that the behaviour of my abuser certainly hurt me but I don't want to judge unfairly and if this behaviour is due to a diseased wire-job, rather than a conscious choice .....then I am inclined to have pity more than anything (which may or may not be healthy for me??? ).  It just seems unfair to decide my abuser has free will, if there might be another explanation.  It would be like being upset with someone for being diabetic...as if they could choose to produce and release insulin appropriately and as if they had free choice to make their pancreas function properly.

Does anyone else struggle with this?

To be honest, I don't struggle with it. When I encounter a narcissistic, abusive person, I immediately know that they are trying to survive however they can. If they vindictively or maliciously destroy someone, that is part of their survival process. They don't know how to manage situations any more than a 3 year old could. I basically see them as severely regressed people with a total inability to get what they want in a normal way. The problem could be hardwiring or not, that doesn't matter to me. If they can't behave properly due to neurological impairment, I really don't care. So my first priority is (1) self-protection. If I wait for them to realize they are f*** up, it will be a long wait. My next priority is (2) how do I strategize dealing with them if I'm forced to by circumstances? My third priority is (3) What is their internal world like so I can minimize becoming a 'bad object' in it? (well this is part of strategizing). And (4) if they have lied about me to others, I cut off and reject all people who believe the lies. I don't need those people in my life, they are obviously idiots.

bunny

[dogbit]

and if this behaviour is due to a diseased wire-job, rather than a conscious choice .....then I am inclined to have pity more than anything (which may or may not be healthy for me??? ).

I struggle with the same question.  I know my husband had poor parenting.  His family was very much into appearances rather than acknowledging their children for who they were and who they wanted to become.  Because of the neuro-biological difficulties two of my children have, I have wondered many times whether my husband had the same difficulties which my kids acquired genetically.  He never had any acknowledgement of his strengths and abilities.  He was always told to fit in and represent the family .  I can only think that this was crazy making for him.  My kids were fortunate in that they had excellent doctors, more knowledge was available, and special schools, and understanding from me and the professionals involved in their care.  

I also came from a very "odd family".  I truly believe my mother was very narcissistic but I don't know why she became that way.  She had so many talents but forced everyone around her to play into her self-centerdness which, of course, left her alone.  My Daddy drank a lot.  And I became the manager of the family so my husband seemed relatively normal to me which is why I married him .  He is/was very high functioning and could disguise the real issues.  

No child born wants to be unhappy.  I don't know if it is genetics or neuro-biological stuff.  The bottom line is that it does not work well in bringing up future children if the parents are not willing to collaborate in breaking the cycle.  Whatever we are born with can be dealt with if we are in a family or community that is kind and compassionate and willing to take the time to focus on the best interests of the child.  When the focus is always on us, the kids will have to bear the repercussions of having to emulate their parents or having the luck of getting strength and support of others outside the family so they can break the cycle of enherited disfunction or learned disfunction.  

I feel pity for my husband and I feel pity for myself.  I know what has happened and my the only thing I can do at this time with what I know is to carry on with my kids and give them the best information I have.  

You can feel sorry for someone which shows you are compassionate but you can't let that pity control your future.  If it controls your future then  the madness just continues.  See the pity for what it is and then go on to have a good life.

[OR]

Sela,

MRI's showed that this area of the brain can clearly "play a major role in producing social behavioral abnormalities".

My N-H, having medical reports from MRI's of the brain shows he has frontal lobe abnormalities.
Many leasions on the brain, having MS according to the doctors.

I have done a little reading found information regarding recent murders (colimbine school)
youths were found having abmormalites.
The frontal loble not developed maybe because of age and not fully developed.
Should they be responsible for the murders?  

Argument: More people the same age would be walking about committing murders.

I did submitt to the courts for my OSC an article about what the effects are when the brain has abnormal
findings in this area ie, : agression, lack on long term thinking, moral judgement. (N) behaviors.

Question why don't the therapist use this information in diagnosis for treatment???

They are not doctors so the physical damages to the brain are not their area.

I think it is their area, to use any information to gain knowlege in their teatments.

If your bone was broken as seen on an x-ray, you would know which way to set the bone to heal.
With out the x-ray you just give an asprin to make the pain stop for short time maybe it's just a sprain or in your head. (must be hypocondia)
While the bone sets and heals deformed, too late to help correct the problem, sorry thought this asprin would have worked.

I have to take hormones if  I didn't I would be pist off most of the time slaming doors and acting emotional.
I don't know if my brain shows something or not but my blood and hormone levels have indications I need medicine to contol this. How did  my doctors understand my emotional problems were linked with hormones? I'm so glad someone found their was a link.  

Thanks for reading OR  

[Brigid]

Sela,
I have been following your discussion with mud on this with great interest.  My opinion on this would be that NPD is so recent in its discovery (relatively speaking) and so much more studying will need to be done before any definitive statements about its origin can be made.  Just based on what I have seen in my own family and ex's family, I would say that it was a combination of nature and nurture.  But I don't think that genetically someone would become an n without the surrounding nurturing to develop it.  I think the conditions need to be right for the n traits to become NPD.

As far as feeling compassion for their behavior, I don't.  I feel some level of compassion for the fact that they will never experience real joy and happiness in their lives and turmoil will follow them wherever they go.  But I agree with mud that there is an element of free will involved and they can consciously choose to hurt others or not.  These are, for the most part, bright, intelligent individuals who do understand that their actions cause pain.  They don't feel that pain and they don't care how others are affected, but they are aware of it and choose to do it anyway.  I think it is too easy to say they are miswired and they can't help themselves.  Just my 2 cents.

I hope you are feeling better, Sela.  I felt so badly for you after reading your story about your daughter.  Very unbelievable to imagine.

Blessings,

Brigid

[mudpuppy]

Hi everybody,

I have watched Ns weighing their options; on the one hand, the hard moral choice on the other the easy selfish one. We all weigh the same options. It may be harder for some than others, but until somebody can show me under a microscope the self-centered-arrogant-SOB-I-don't-care-how-many people-I-have-to step-on-my-comfort-is-more-important-than-the-rest-of-the-world gene, I will continue to believe that a person who is faced with a moral choice and makes the evil one every time is consciously making a choice.

Bunny wrote,

When I encounter a narcissistic, abusive person, I immediately know that they are trying to survive however they can.

That may be perfectly true, but it doesn't mean the method they use to survive is still not a conscious choice, and an immoral one. Its quite possible to survive in a most reprehensible manner.
I've been around a lot of three year olds and none of them ever relentlessly tried to destroy my life if I didn't comply with their wishes.


This discussion reminds me of the description of alcoholism as a disease. Many people say it is genetic and alcoholics can't help themselves because of their supposed predisposition.
The problem is there are many alcoholics who have turned from their drinking by making the conscious choice not to succumb to their disease. Its very hard for them to do and requires unbelievable courage and will power, but if we just call it a disease to avoid hurting the feelings of those who don't stop aren't we denying the sacrifice of the ones who do?

Obviously there is something wrong inside Ns noggins and I do have sympathy for the misery they are in but I have seen the calculation to intentionally do the wrong thing wth my own eyes, and its going to be tough to convince me their gene's made it impossible for them to choose the right thing.

mudpup

[bunny]

That may be perfectly true, but it doesn't mean the method they use to survive is still not a conscious choice, and an immoral one. Its quite possible to survive in a most reprehensible manner.
I've been around a lot of three year olds and none of them ever relentlessly tried to destroy my life if I didn't comply with their wishes.

An adult behaving like a 3 year old can do a lot more damage than a literal 3 year old. That's why we don't concern ourselves about the narcissism of a 3 year old. Frankly whether an N's behavior choice is conscious, unconscious or semi-conscious doesn't matter to me. I just protect myself.

bunny

[daylily]

Hello Sela,

First of all, I just wanted to add my sympathy for what you've been through.  I'm so sorry that happened to you; it sounds like a complete nightmare, and I really admire how well you seem to be dealing with everything.

On the topic at hand...I just wanted to point out that in other times, places, and cultures, many of the behaviors that we "recognize" as "dysfunctional" were simply the norm.  I am very hesitant to say that a failure to exhibit the behavior that we in 21st-century Western society classify as "good parenting," for example, would qualify as a brain disease.  There was a time, not so long ago, when the parent's job was to foster proper deference to parental, religious, and social authority, and to punish infractions.  Helping the child to recognize and realize his or her potential came a distant second, if it came at all.  Most parents would have had no idea what you were talking about if you mentioned "unconditional love," and the idea of taking the child's side in a dispute with another authority figure, such as a teacher, would have been greeted with frank astonishment.  Are today's cultural norms better?  We seem to think so.  But most generations believe that the attitudes and actions of their forebears were at best, uninformed, and at worst, harmful.  I think it's a fact, though, that one reason NPD is a "recent" diagnosis is because the emotional consequences of relating to an NPD are only now being recognized.  N's have been inflicting themselves on children, spouses, and co-workers ever since Narcissus fell in love with his reflection.  But only now is the individual's happiness more important than the relationship, and only now do we culturally accept dissolving or altering basic social relationships (such as marriages or nuclear families) to enhance individual well-being.

I also think we have to be careful what we brand a "disease."  Just because certain areas of the brain can be demonstrated to affect certain emotional responses, that doesn't make one particular response right or wrong, diseased or well.  It is not necessarily a disease to be cruel, since "cruel" is a subjective concept.

None of this is to say that where we are, what is important in this historical moment, is wrong.  I'm not wishing to turn back the clock.  But I do think it's worth remembering that there are many ways to answer these questions, depending on where and when you ask them.  In the here and now, for example, some people would automatically abort a fetus with a serious genetic irregularity.  Others would view that as murder.  Same action, fatal consequence to the involved party--but is making one decision over the other a "symption" of a diseased mind?

Just a few thoughts.  I do not come down very strongly on one side or the other here, so I hope I have not offended anyone.

daylily

[Stormchild]

Speaking purely from my own experience [which is more extensive than I wish it was] I've never seen an act of malice - behaviour that was clearly and transparently malicious - that wasn't intentional. To really 'do' malice well requires planning, or at the very least 'watchful waiting' for the right opportunity, the right circumstances, the right time to do the most damage.

Vindictiveness, in other words. Hate.

I suppose this could be interpreted as a behavioural form of predation... since actual hunting predators lurk and stalk and probably take much pleasure in the kill. And I suppose that for the type of predator whose food is other people's wellbeing, or their souls, this might have some warped kind of survival value.

Spite on the other hand seems to me to be much more rooted in spontaneous opportunity... and emotional gratification without the involvement of much real thought. I work with some extremely spiteful people, and it's amazing the degree of short-sightedness involved. They do as much damage to themselves as they do to everyone around them, because it's a knee-jerk behaviour. Someone needs something? Dig in heels and refuse to deliver, or make sure you deliver late or useless information. No matter who needs it, no matter who sees you doing it. Someone you dislike makes a trivial error? Jump all over them, ram it down their throat. In all these cases, everyone around them sees what they've done, and knows what they are... assuming no more than the usual level of denial is operating... but that doesn't matter to the spiteful, does it? Momentary gratification has been attained.

This, to me, is more like monkeys flinging you-know-what. The other is like snakes lying in wait.

Yeah, it was a loooong week at work...

[Sela]

I don't know how to thank you all for the thought you've put into your responses.  I really do appreciate it.

I haven't started many topics here, not because I don't have zillions of questions but because I still have a tape playing, I guess, that says it's a stupid question, or no one else would want to bother posting about that, or there is no answer so why bother, or other ridiculous derogatory thoughts that pop in and duhhhhh I quit before I begin.

Bunny, thankyou for being first to respond with your very logical strategy (it's so healthy to set priorities and make plans that are realistic and to the point).  I really appreciate you sharing that.

Dogbittles, thankyou so much.  I don't feel so alone now.  I don't feel so crazy.  I'm not the only one who struggles with this.  Thankyou for saying that and for saying you too have pity (plus the go on and have a good life is the absolute way to go!!  Way to go!!  Good for you!!!).

OR, thankyou too for sharing and you ask some really serious questions which also induces much pondering, considering. ( I'm glad the doc figgered out about the hormones and that they are working too!).  The part about the bone being deformed is really the whole point.  It's like a brain with cancer in it.....same thing....do we hold the person responsible for their behaviour when their brain is sick and full of cancer and not functioning??

Brigid, thankyou for all of your kind words and for taking the time to post your opinion.  Your 2 cents are worth a whole lot more to me.  And you're right....it is too easy to say they are miswired and they can't help themselves.  It's very easy to say.  I just don't know.  I just don't know if that really is the case or if it isn't and it's just something that I keep wondering about.  What if that is what it is?  (here I go with the what if's )  What if there is a wire missing?  What if, 50 years from now, the new know-how says these people can't help themselves?

I've always had a problem with "can't".  I don't like that word and I will often discard it and think "won't".  Most things are not "can't".  Most things are a choice.  If so, them I still pity the poor souls that choose to harm because I do, really believe we will all meet our maker and if that maker has any sense of justice whatsoever, He/She will NOT be a happy camper, when these people show up for mercy.

That's where I get stuck.

Mercy.

I want mercy when I do wrong.  I hope others will have it with me.  I know it's a different thing because I try not to be spiteful and I can't think of when I have acted with malice.  But I must have.  I'm only human.  I'm in denial then or just can't remember or I've blocked it out.

I believe I am entitled to the same mercy I give out.

So........I have a hard time not being merciful.

Even when others have no mercy for me.

It almost sounds pathetic to write that but I'm being as honest.  This is from my heart.

Mudbrother, your attitude is your strength.  I don't want to change that.  But what if there is such a gene?  For me, I know I will suffer mounds of guilt if I have no mercy now and find out later how wrong I was.

These people have no morals, it seems.  How can one act morally without morals?

All of these questions are just thoughts and they are not meant for you Brigid, or you Mud or anyone else specific.  They're just questions.

Daylily, thankyou so much.  I have been through the worst nightmare I can imagine any mother having to face, other than having their child murdered.  I'm grateful that I have not been challenged to withstand the worst.

You're right too.  We do have to be careful what we brand a disease and how that effects those who choose to overcome what we might see as disability.  But not everyone has the same determination, the same strength, the same will, the same hope.  I feel so lucky to have those things.  They are gifts.  They have helped me survive against many odds.  I just can't help having pity on those who feel weak, without will, no drive and hopeless.  I want to share those things....which is impossible, or is it?

Sometimes, someone can say something that changes a person's life.
Sometimes, a situation can cause people to fight harder.
But in the N's case?  Something's missing?  It is said no one can cure them.  They can't feel empathy.   My guess is they feel hopeless, deep inside???

Stormy, as usual you wrote something so plainly.  I really believe these people who behave like N's have hate in them.  And they do behave in knee-jerk ways too.  But if they can't help it, is there mercy?  Must not there be true sickness in a person who gets emotional gratification from vindictive or spiteful acts against other?

I don't know.  No one does.  There is no known "disease" so far but there is a disorder.

Disorder is out of order, not in proper order, something is messed up.

I'm so sorry about what you have to deal with at work Stormy.  I wish a new job would come along for you with people you really enjoy working with, who are kind and considerate and thoughtful, like you.

I sure I hope I haven't missed anyone.  I'm still confused.  It hurts more to think my abuser acted with malice and spite and I do think that.  Then I feel sad, angry, betrayed, beilittled, abused and ashamed of that person's behaviour.  Then I think......what if.....about genes ??  And it helps me, some, to try to believe that the person can't help themselves.  Then I battle the can't word again.
No matter what I do feel pity. 

Sela 

[Stormchild]

Oh, Sela, I have spent sooooo much of my life trying to obtain mercy from the merciless.

Is there mercy for them? Perhaps. But what is there for us?

I think - I hope - that at the end of our lives, we are allowed to see clearly, everything. Everything we have done. Everything done to us. And to see with absolute clarity and accuracy into the motives of everyone who played a significant part in our lives, but even more importantly, to see into our own.

And I think we are given a choice then. Do we accept the responsibility for what we have been, said, done? Do we admit it? Where we were kind, helpful, good... are we glad? Where we were unkind... now that we see how and why... what do we do? What do we say to that great Witness who knows who we are and is sharing that knowledge with us, fully, for the first time?

I think this is where the malicious and spiteful have their chance to obtain mercy, or to reject it... along with every one of us... because we're all imperfect, and none of us is absolutely without flaws. I do think, though, God forgive me, that there's still a difference between those who scream profanity because they are in absolute agony of the soul, and those who bellow it because they know it will intimidate someone they want to harm.

Mud... before you start correcting my theology here take note that I didn't say precisely when at the end of our lives I think this reckoning-with-choice takes place.....

[Sela]

Dear (((((Stormy))))

Thankyou again.  I believe that too about ..at the end of our lives (our time in this world or at the end of this world perhaps??) and I guess I just can't justify asking for mercy if I don't give it to those who most need it.

Who needs mercy more than those who have harmed me?  Especially, if it was a choice to harm.
And if there was no choice and I show no mercy, then what will my reward be?

Before his last breath, as the story goes, Jesus asked God to have mercy on his murderers.

That has always stuck in my mind.  It was an example of how to behave (whether a person believes the story, in Him, or not....the message seems clear).  And I struggle with that.  Maybe it's selfish to want to choose correctly?

Sela

[Stormchild]

Before his last breath, as the story goes, Jesus asked God to have mercy on his murderers.

That has always stuck in my mind.  It was an example of how to behave (whether a person believes the story, in Him, or not....the message seems clear).  And I struggle with that.  Maybe it's selfish to want to choose correctly?

Sela

I wouldn't call it selfish... not at all.

Isn't it interesting, that Jesus also said... again, quite apart from the question of faith, here... that we ought not cast our pearls before swine? That particular remark keeps coming to mind for me lately, in connection with my work experiences, and other parts of my personal history. What did he mean by it? And why would an ancient and observant Jew choose that specific animal - the most unclean of all unclean creatures, to any devout Jew - as his illustration for the recipient of wasted treasure?

Feel free to disagree with me here. But I think he was saying that we are finite, even though goodness itself is not. We are time limited, we become exhausted, we get used up. And for that reason, we shouldn't waste our best.... especially on the worst.

Some hairsplitting now. There's a difference between judging and discerning.

When a person judges, in the sense that people are told not to be 'judgmental', there's an emotional component to the rejecting of the thing or person that is judged, kind of an 'ick factor'. When a person discerns, the result might be the same [it's a waste of my time to interact with X, they are abusive] but it comes from a detached place, there isn't the 'ick' aspect to it. Someone who judges X for being abusive will show contempt or disdain for X, they can't help it. Someone who discerns that X is abusive and decides to avoid them won't show contempt or disdain, for the simple and excellent reason that they don't feel contempt. Or disdain. It's not about feelings for them, it's just about avoiding unpleasantness and wasted time, energy, etc.

So I think that bit about the pearls and the piggies has to do with discerning where to spend our limited lifetime supply of goodness and mercy, in order to have it do the most good - for both the recipient and for us. And we're being advised not to waste it. And I honestly think that if we can withdraw our investment of time and treasure from someone who has abused us, in a detached way so that it comes from discernment rather than judgment of the person, then we are still in a position to show them mercy. We're not trying to hurt them, we still wish them good... but any good that comes to them is no longer going to be paid for with our tears. And in that way, we are finally showing mercy to ourselves.

Whoo, this is hard stuff. When you actually read what the man taught, it's as profound and paradoxical as anything taught by the Zen masters.

[Brigid]

Sela,
I was just talking to a neighbor earlier who was relating the story of her divorce (she is now happily remarried for 2 years) and the subsequent havoc that her ex and his new mate have wreaked on her life since then.  There is NO question that this man is an n and has actually been diagnosed as psychotic.  He is also a practicing physician.  I'm sure Stormy has encountered  people in esteemed positions in her work and we have heard from many others on this board whose n's are in life and death positions.  If they truly have no control over their behavior, why the HELL are we allowing them to fly airplanes, run large corporations, deliver babies, and transplant hearts.  How can they be capable of those very important jobs, but not be able to control the way they behave toward certain individuals?  Is the brain that selective that the presence of a particular person will send off signals to this n individual to start acting like an a$$hole and they can't help themselves?

I don't know the answers to these questions, but it scares the crap out of me to think that they could have so little control over the way they operate their relational systems.

I do believe there will be an ultimate judgment for the evil doers and I hope the ultimate grace for the survivors.  Lots to think about.

Brigid

[bunny]

I'm still confused.  It hurts more to think my abuser acted with malice and spite and I do think that.  Then I feel sad, angry, betrayed, beilittled, abused and ashamed of that person's behaviour.  Then I think......what if.....about genes ??  And it helps me, some, to try to believe that the person can't help themselves.  Then I battle the can't word again.
No matter what I do feel pity.  


Let's say the person has a psychiatric disorder (personality disorders are mental illnesses btw) and is considered "ill." They are going to behave in diagnostic ways - chaotic, irrational, immature, distorted, malicious, vindictive, deceitful, hostile, aggressive, sociopathic, etc. There are ways to "mitigate" their bad behavior - sometimes. The main way to deal with these people is avoidance; second choice, agree to be their bad object temporarily; after you do this, the person is far more malleable and under your control. But you have to agree to be hated by them for a short time and not resist it. The mistake/error is thinking that we can cure a narcissist through love or kindness. Actually the most effective thing is to allow them to use you as a garbage container for a short time, which if done right, metabolizes their raw affects and allows them to calm down. That takes skill and most of us don't have the skill nor do we want to do it. So that leaves avoidance as the optimal idea. This does not erase pity, mercy, or compassion. Those things are all part of what I'm talking about. If you can accept that a person acts hatefully BECAUSE their internal template is that of hate and terror, then you can understand everything. I think many people have a very hard time believing this. If you could detach from the abuser, and not feel their shame, or feel connected to their behavior even as their victim, but see yourself as a projection screen that you can leave standing and go away from it, I think your confusion will minimize.

bunny