Voicelessness and Emotional Survival Message Board

Voicelessness and Emotional Survival => Voicelessness and Emotional Survival Message Board => Topic started by: spyralle on August 28, 2005, 02:34:53 PM

Title: Shattered illusions....What now?
Post by: spyralle on August 28, 2005, 02:34:53 PM: As i am learning so much about my ex and the dynamics of being with him I am really having to question my family dynamics, both here and in therapy. My therapist believes that I shut my eyes to the real deal because i had learned to do that as a child. She reckons that a child cannot possibly allow themselves to accept that their parents are abusive so they pretend they arn't and all the anger and pain gets turned mainly on ourselves and sometimes others.

It is fascinating for me to start actually acknowledging that these ideas may be true. i have lived for years in the knowledge that I have been a supreme dsappointment to my mother and have endured such comments as...."you have killed all your relatives" You are the "lowest of the low" etc.... but the problem was, nomatter how mad I have always intrinsically believed her. I have felt guilty for as far back as i can remember.

On the day of my dads funeral me my mum and my brother had an argument. my mum lives in Spain up in the mountains. The road to her house was closed and we had to go on a far out detour which took us over the top of the hills. We were arguing about my brothers wife and things got very heated. I was driving the car. I turned around to shout at my brother and he punched me in the face. i was so angry that I thought about just putting my foot on the accelorator and driving us all over the side of the mountain, so I stopped the car and got out. i left my shes in the car. My mother and my brother drove off and left me there. This was 10 pm. It was very very dark and i started walking and walked right over the edge, waking up on a flat ledge with all my ribs broken, my head split open etc... I managed to climb back up and spent the whole night sheltering on the step of a stone outhouse type building. It was January and very cold. Everytime I heard the wind whistling I thought that it was them coming back for me.... I regressed totally, crying and screaming and shouting for my mum to come and save me...

They never came back. As it started to get light I started walking. It was hard with bare feet but I persevered for two hours until I came across alittle old man on a moped. I was babbling in Spanish and english and covered in blood and before he put me on the backof his bike he started feeling to see if I was wearing underwear. It was like some nightmare. Anyway. he deposited me at my mums house. Her and my brother were off to the hospital as I believe he broke her collarbone when he hit me. They were not interested in me and left me there. I got in the bath and when I got out the bath was full of blood and hair and dirt. when they returned my mum saw the bath and immediately tried to go into loving mother mode. my brother went to sunbathe saying there was nothing wrong with me and that I had probably been out with my friends.

I can remember feeling very numb. I would not stay in the house and got my mother to book me a flight back to England. Don't know how I managed it really with all those broken ribs, but I did. I was terrified all the way home. I kept hearing my brothers voice like a flashback......

Though I do mention this sometimes it is like some surreal event to me. When my ex left me the anxiety and panic and regression that I experienced on this night returned.... My mother never mentions this night. If she could erase the fact that she was there from my memory she would. her only explanation for leaving me was. Well I just went home to bed.....

i don't know what to do now. Since my ex has left I am having to acknowledge that my family were not what I wanted them to be. I am having to acknowledge that the way they treated me may constitute abuse and that I may have been abused many times in other relationships. I have been blaming myself for forty three years now and shattering the illusion does not come easy. I don't know how to treat my mother, even though I never see her anyway....

Sorry this is a bit of a ramble. I'm just trying to make some sense of my life and where to go from here...

Spyralle
Title: Re: Shattered illusions....What now?
Post by: vunil on August 28, 2005, 02:46:03 PM: Oh, my god, Spyralle. I am so sorry. That is one of the worst and most horrendous stories I've ever heard of people (never mind family) treating another person. You could have been molested, you could have gotten run over, you could have fallen off a cliff-- it was night! In the dark! In the mountains. And they just left you there. What they did was dangerous and bordered on homicidal. I am appalled. Did you tell your therapist about this? Imagine reading a newspaper story about some poor woman in that situation-- you would want to arrest the family, and I think in many countries you would have been able to hold them liable for something horrible happening to you.

Appalling.
Title: Re: Shattered illusions....What now?
Post by: Chicken on August 28, 2005, 03:05:51 PM: Spyralle,

I am so sorry to read that story. What a horrible time you must have had that night. Not only physically but on an emotional level... feeling that no one gives a sh*t about you or your welfare and feeling totally abandoned by those who are supposed to love you...

hmmmm.... you are in that situation again now, so your memory of this episode probably feels very raw

I don't know if you have been in therapy before, but my experience is that it brings up some very very painful stuff that makes you feel so vulnerable and isolated and unprotected. I think you should probably prepare for that, you should nurture yourself, eat well, sleep well, relax and take it easy. Take good care of yourself while you are healing.

((((((((((((((((((((((((Spyralle)))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))
Title: Re: Shattered illusions....What now?
Post by: vunil on August 28, 2005, 05:56:42 PM: Quote
have endured such comments as...."you have killed all your relatives"

What in the heck does she mean by this? You yourself killed your own relatives? Wow, aren't you the evil despot. Jeez Louise.

Have you and your brother even mentioned the incident where he hit you (!) and then left you? I assume he hasn't apologized, but has he even brought it up?

I read your story a couple of hours ago and continue to be appalled. Wow, the memories we have to live with. I am glad at least now you can start to really process it.
Title: Re: Shattered illusions....What now?
Post by: amethyst on August 28, 2005, 06:11:06 PM: ((((Spyralle)))) That is one of the worst stories of abuse and abandonment I have ever heard. You could easily have died. I suffered something similar to this when I was 8 because my parents were drunk and it took me years to work through. During that time of therapy, I felt raw, vulnerable and even crazy. My therapist kept telling me that I was sane and I was finally able on a deep emotional level to understand what my family was about. Your therapist will probably ask you if you would have ever left someone in the mountains in winter without shoes and do you think this is something that a sane, kind, loving person would do. I know your answer will be absolutely not. To me, their intentions sound murderous.

My therapist kept explaining to me that the "why" of the abuse is not the question we should be asking...that we should understand the "what" of the abuse and therefore understand "what" our families are. When I finally understood, I decided in every fibre of my being that my family was evil and that somehow I had survived. I vowed never to put myself back into those situations.

Your therapist needs to know this. Please take it in that you are strong enough and brave enough and sane enough to handle doing this kind of work.
Title: Re: Shattered illusions....What now?
Post by: mum on August 28, 2005, 06:33:36 PM: (((((((((((Spyralle)))))))))))))
This IS the "now what". Examining your life, working through the pain. You deserve such joy and peace. Moving through is hard.
You are very brave for sharing such a story. Bless you.
Title: Re: Shattered illusions....What now?
Post by: amethyst on August 28, 2005, 06:52:34 PM: Quote from: Marta on August 28, 2005, 06:23:08 PM
Amethyst:
During that time of therapy, I felt raw, vulnerable and even crazy. My therapist kept telling me that I was sane and I was finally able on a deep emotional level to understand what my family was about.

Amethyst, I think you were really lucky to have a therapist who could honor your feelings, and let you make contact with your emotions. During this time for me, my own therapist raped me (not sexually, but emotionally) and I was so trusting that I could not tell, for years and years, what was happening.

Marta

(((Marta))) I was fortunate to have "Uzi Suzi"...she was tough as nails, never let me stay in any kind of denial, and absolutely believed that I was a strong, sane, and loving person who could work through all this. She gave me faith in myself. I also have had some other terrific therapists. They are out there. If you give yourself the power to disagree with the therapist and they react toxicly, you know you are in the wrong place with the wrong person. I am so sorry that happened to you.

There are also quacks and abusers and people who have not healed their own stuff. About 10 years ago, my husband and I had some issues that we needed to resolve, so we decided to see a highly recommended marriage counselor, a guy I'll call Joe. Joe was heavy. Now "Uzi Suzi" had told me that every ten extra pounds indicates ten pounds of anger and unresolved issues, so I was a little concerned that maybe Joe had some baggage that he hadn't dealt with. He was also a devout Catholic. He was somewhat helpful and gave us some good tools to work with, but during our last session he told us that to feel anger was always inappropriate and was "bad," that it should always be suppressed. I said,"Whoa! Joe! Wrong! Anger is a symptom that usually covers fear of loss! It means that we need to look at what is going on under the anger and deal with it. It's an emotion, like any other emotion. It's "bad" when people start acting out the anger, but the anger itself is just a warning signal." He said,"There you go again! You are always giving your opinion. You are very outspoken. Anger is bad." (He sounded quite angry. I guess he felt I should just be a subservient female, too. :P :shock:) I said,"Look Joe. I grew up in a Catholic neighborhood as a non-Catholic. My friends told me that according to their Catechism lessons, even to feel anger was a cardinal sin. I am in AA and I know quite a few "recovering Catholics" who say that this was one teaching that they had to jettison because their anger was not being dealt with and was always coming out sideways. Or they were burying it and it was turning into resentment, which can lead to getting it on with the bottle again. I'm not telling you what to do, but I can't accept what you are saying." My hubby also said,"I have to back Amethyst up on this. She is right. If we start stuffing our anger, which is going to arise naturally out of the fact that we are two people in a relationship that sometimes has bumps in the road, conflicting goals and occasional difficulties in communication, we are going to be in deep S**T!" He fired us and we fired him at the same time.

Afterwards, when my hubby and I processed what happened, my hubby said he had felt confused, which I think goes back to the discussion about evil. Here was a fat therapist with a ton of buried anger telling us something that was a lie, which was evil...he was promoting his own agenda and trying to get us to swallow his unresolved stuff. I think my hubby and I handled it pretty well. :D :lol:
Title: Re: Shattered illusions....What now?
Post by: miss piggy on August 28, 2005, 10:29:24 PM: Hello Spyralle,

My god, abandoning you in the snowy mountains sounds...criminal to me. They knowingly left you in an extremely perilous situation. No wonder any version of abandonment (like your ex) would set off the trauma again. How awful!

I wish you peace. MP
Title: Re: Shattered illusions....What now?
Post by: d'smom on August 28, 2005, 10:46:37 PM: i agree, you really honestly could have died. what would have been their story after that? can you imagine what they would have said, to explain the fact that -they- killed *you*???........ how much would i bet it would have been all your fault im sure. that is one of the worst stories ive ever heard as well that was excused as normal, and i have talked with ritual abuse survivors.

and gosh you were going to your dads funeral. that just BITES.

i agree eat well and love yourself today
((((((((((((((((((((((((spyralle)))))))))))))))))))))))))
Title: Re: Shattered illusions....What now?
Post by: Plucky on August 28, 2005, 11:20:38 PM: Man what an awful pack of "people" your family are! Yuk!

The only good thing, is that there is no way to explain or accept or excuse what they did. It is off the charts horrible and inhuman. A person doing that to even a dog would be criminally liable. How long ago was it? You probably don't want to go there, but I bet you could still bring charges. Just think about that, about the fact that the force and weight and ideas of the Spanish government would back you up in punishing the insane criminals you call your family.

I picture the long years of abuse you endured as a long slow descent down into a deep, dark hole. The deeper you went down, the harder it was to see the light. Now you are digging your way out. It will take some time, but you will make it onto level ground. You are coming more and more into the light. Your 'family' are also down in this hole. As long as you were in it and below them, they felt ok. Now you are rising above them and they are uncomfortable. They will do anything to drag you back down.

A family ought to be a group of biologically, legally, or socially related individuals providing companionship and mutual support. Your so-called family did none of this. They need to be fired. You can then begin to contruct a real family - your first. Treat your family as you would treat a terminated employee who has no business on the property - with coolness and caution.

I'm sorry I can't provide any better comments than this. I am just in shock. I'm glad you survived. I'm glad you are going to heal. I'm glad you came up here to get support from us.

Plucky
Title: Re: Shattered illusions....What now?
Post by: amethyst on August 29, 2005, 12:21:47 AM: Marta:
During this time for me, my own therapist raped me (not sexually, but emotionally) and I was so trusting that I could not tell, for years and years, what was happening.

Amethyst:
If you give yourself the power to disagree with the therapist and they react toxicly, you know you are in the wrong place with the wrong person. [/b]

You didn't understand what I said, Amethyst....

I must not have understood, Marta. I am sorry. I'm still not clear on what I didn't understand, though. If you could tell me, it would help.

I wasn't clear either in my communication either. What I meant was if you were to find someone that you believe is a good therapist in the future and then suddenly you find them reacting abusively or to toxicly (sp?) to something you are saying, it's time to fire that therapist.
Title: Re: Shattered illusions....What now?
Post by: Chicken on August 29, 2005, 03:16:27 AM: ((((((((((((((((((((((Marta))))))))))))))))))))))))

I am very sorry to hear that you had that experience with someone you went to for therapy. That is so shocking and horrible. It makes the hairs stand up on my back. That is the last thing I would expect from a therapist and you being in such a vulnerable position. You were extremely unlucky to stumble on that therapist at such a time in your life. I hope you can heal from that and find some peace. It must be hard not to be permanently bitter, angry, resentful....

What a cynical, twisted, bitter person your "therapist" was.

If you ever wish to speak about it, I am sure you will find support here.

x Selkie x
Title: Re: Shattered illusions....What now?
Post by: vunil on August 29, 2005, 04:50:17 AM: Quote
Treat your family as you would treat a terminated employee who has no business on the property - with coolness and caution.

Well put, Plucky.

Spyralle, many hours and counting and I am still appalled. Your story actually gave me a nightmare. I am glad you shared with us-- I hope our outrage helps you get in touch with your own outrage, and shows you how people who are capable of compassion respond to such behavior. I remember once years ago in therapy I was telling what I thought was an innocuous story about my childhood and the therapist I had started to cry. It was quite a moment. Just know we are reacting that way to your story-- with shock and anger and tears.

Marta, this thread is so overwhelming that I have to concentrate on Spyralle's story (it is obsessively bothering me) but I agree with everyone else-- I'm sorry that you were taken advantage of by a therapist. I hope at some point you'll share more with us, if you would like to and think it might help.
Title: Re: Shattered illusions....What now?
Post by: spyralle on August 29, 2005, 05:35:02 AM: Hi everyone,

The response to this has been really overwhelming and has completely thrown me. i am sitting here this morning reading all your replies and it is difficult to put into words how i feel. It feels really strange that people are so very appalled. i know that must sound really odd because on one level i know this is not a small incident, but this is what I have beeen trying to say. When things like this have happened, they have been brushed away.... so therefore they cease to become real or important, just another something that happened for which somewhere i was sure I was to blame....

Vunil.when she said that I had killed all my relatives I asked her to explain..... She said that with my dreadful behaviour I was responsible for them dying. My mum has spent the past twenty years writing a diary. She writes an A4 page every day, all about her day....What she has had to eat and how much money she has spent. These diaries also validate her feeling that I am the worst daughter ever. We went to Spain a couple of years ago and she left someof the diaries in the room my daughter stayed in. Of course my daughter opened them and started to read about what a 'disgrace' I was..... My mother has said that when she dies she is going to leave me these diaries to read. What a head f**k that would be......

I find it so hard to sustain the belief that she is bad. It is the same phemonenon as my ex. She paints herself as very fragile and so I have spent 43 years trying not to upset her. I'm not saying I am a saint. There are many occasions when I have lost it and then I get cast in an even darker light than i am already. She has helped me out a lot over the years with money. You know what though, if I had the time to do again I would go it alone. She feels that she owns me you see, and that includes the innermost secrets that I carry...

Vunil, you asked me if I had ever spoken to my brother about the incident. No.... i have only seen him once since, and that was at my partners funeral. My partner died 5 years ago. He just collapsed after getting up in the morning and that was that. I was in hospital. I discharged myself and came home as I knew something was wrong. I climbed through the window and there he was. My lovely man...He had been six foot four of energy and vitality...just gone. Anyway. My daughter was in Spain with my mother and they caught a flight home to arrive the next morning. My daughter has not really spoken to my mother since this night. My mother was appalled at my daughter's behavior (She started shouting and crying and threw her sunglasses on the floor) and said to her at the airport that at least she would not have to put up with her any more....

So the next day my brother turns up with his girlfriend, albeit to do the right thing. I have learned since that they were disgusted at the state of my house and garden etc etc etc... There were people coming in and out of my house with flowers etc and I justsat on the table like a zombie. We talked a little about the funeral and I said that I would not wear black. I loved him so much so I wanted to wear white. It just felt right to me at the time. My mother went into one then and started going on about what people would think. The day went pretty much the same way so I went to lie on my daughters bed. I had her on one side of me and my best friend on the other, just stroking my hair whilst I cried myself to sleep. My mother was sitting downstairs drinking beer with the husband of my friend. She looked up at the ceiling and said. can you hear that...I've had to put up with that all my life!!

Anyway first thing the next morning she decided she was off... She said I lived in a mad house and she wasn't staying. Not even 24 hours she managed... My brother and his girlfriend lent me the money for the funeral, and they were there. casting judgements on all around them. I should never have taken their money. My mother gave it back to him by the way. I should never have taken any money of my mother in my life because she bought me, and now feels that she has a right to do with me as she wishes.

So back to the question I started to answer Vunil. No we have not spoken about the mountain incident. It's funny if I ever mention that incident I never say my mother was there.....

Thank you for hearing me

Spyralle x
Title: Re: Shattered illusions....What now?
Post by: amethyst on August 29, 2005, 06:28:48 AM: ((((Spyralle)))) I am in absolute tears at what you have been through. Can you not see that your mother made your beloved's death all about herself and took pleasure in belittleing you? How could anyone critcize you on that day and be so vicious, so cruel?

Please don't beat yourself up for taking her money. You did the best you could. I would feel no guilt over the money whatsoever. I know about the "strings attached" stuff and that always feels yucky, but I swear that whatever money your mom or brother have given you is nothing compared to what they have robbed you of. They owe you bigtime.

As far as that diary, I don't even have words for something like that. I felt as if I had been kicked in the gut when I read about it.

What I see here is your mother is someone who is totally unwilling to look within her "heart of darkness" and has projected who she is (evil N) onto you. You are not who she says you are. In fact a good excercise in therapy might be to take everything that she has ever said about you and put it back on her; take everything she has said about you and say the opposite about yourself. Your mother is a liar.
Title: Re: Shattered illusions....What now?
Post by: Chicken on August 29, 2005, 07:36:30 AM: ((Spyralle))

That post really upset me... How complicated and messed up life can be...

I am so sorry you were born into a family with such horrid, selfish, inconsiderate, cold, uncaring, shallow people. Where was the love in that family? It makes me feel like getting sick just hearing about it. It's so disgusting. Are you still in touch with them? I really would have cut them out of my life if I were you. What your mother said about her diary is callous. What a bitter twisted horrible woman, sorry I know she is your mother, but what Mother would do that to her child? Oh my God...

I am not surprised that you find yourself repeating the same patterns, you are meerly trying to make sense of them. I really hope that you can someday see that you are not to blame, that you have been the victim of appalling treatment and that you are worthy of so much more than what you have had and given yourself so far.

Oh Spyralle, I hope you will see that. Please take all the time in the world to climb to the place where you can see these horrific experiences for what they are.

You deserve so much love and respect, I know someday you will get that. I truly believe in that.

x Selkie x
Title: Re: Shattered illusions....What now?
Post by: vunil on August 29, 2005, 09:14:26 AM: I have to run but want to just say something to that heartbreaking message- I agree that your mother is a LIAR, Spyralle, a projecting wicked liar. Did you ever read "People of the Lie?" It's a weird book and I don't agree with a lot of it but the basic idea of N's as evil does hit home, esp. for people like this.

If she wants to give you those diaries I suggest you make a very nice bonfire out of them. Invite your friends over and have toasted marshmallows.

You have a lot of escavating to do. If they did all of these things I bet they did a lot of other horrible stuff, too.

I am appalled all over again. Bleah to them.
Title: Re: Shattered illusions....What now?
Post by: miss piggy on August 29, 2005, 01:25:01 PM: Hello Spyralle,

Yes, just burn those diaries. MP
Title: Re: Shattered illusions....What now?
Post by: Plucky on August 29, 2005, 01:55:17 PM: Oh Spyralle,
I want to add my voice to those pointing out what a sick bunch of liars your 'family' are, led by your sick sad mother. In times like this I need to find something redeeming about the situation, so that I will not lose faith in humankind. What I come up with is that the depth of sadness and pain you had experienced, will become the height of joy and freedom you will experience as you work through and discard all of the wrong, worthless, harmful information you absorbed all of the time you were growing up and well into your adulthood.

I know, we all know it is hard to discard the ideas that were drummed into us as children and young adults. It is like discarding yourself, even though it is the false self that was built up by your oppressors. But it is not the real you. Your challenge is to realise that there is a real, good, valuable, innocent person who bears no resemblance to the evil portrait painted by your mother and accepted without question by the rest of your family. The things she made you believe about yourself are so ludicrous that she had to have a child to tell them to, because any adult she tried this on, would not only have rejected them wholesale but had her committed.

I find it helpful when I am having trouble on an emotional level rejecting the false information I was fed by my N-mum to imagine myself treating someone else that way. Imagine yourself doing to your daughter what was done to you. Then apply the sense of nausea this provokes to your own case. Your daughter deserves love and protection and self esteem. She deserves the best. Spyralle, so did you. So DO you.

If you can't do it for yourself, do it for her. Children learn by example. If you treat her and others well but yourself badly, guess how she will behave as an adult.

I want to give you hugs and encouragement and love.

Plucky
Title: Re: Shattered illusions....What now?
Post by: vunil on August 29, 2005, 03:02:00 PM: I just realized something--- Spyralle, this might be really helpful to you:

This board, of very strong-willed folks with lots of different opinions, is UNITED in absolute agreement over the behavior of your mother and your brother. That should be telling, no? And it isn't just because you are telling the story in a certain way-- it's easy to see through when that is happening, or at least to wonder about it. Nope. It's just true-- they have been and probably continue to be horrible to you.

And I think the money is irrelevant. By taking their money you didn't agree to abuse from them. If that is what the bargain feels like, to you, then I agree that not taking the money is a good step. But there is no objective contract, signed by all, whereby giving money entitles people to abandon others on mountaintops in the winter, etc. There was a thread awhile ago (many months ago, I think) about whether it's ok to take money from N's. It seemed to boil down to the taker's philosophy-- some liked the "payback" of the money as compensation for wrongs inflicted by the N, some liked the idea of being the taker for once and liked the money for that reason, and others felt that money is a tie and they didn't want any ties any more, so they stopped taking it. It's up to you. But you have nothing to feel guilty about one way or another.
Title: Re: Shattered illusions....What now?
Post by: spyralle on August 30, 2005, 05:38:07 PM: Thank you so much everybody for responding,

This blindness to serious abusive stuff is so entrenched in me. I want to believe so badly that it was not all my fault but it is very very hard. It's funny even as I am typing this I am thinking that I am just being fake. That I am attention seeking and that it wasn't really all that bad. Since posting on this thread I am finding this more and more difficult. It is very hard battling with the fact that my ex was abusing me, but I never realised how this would feel. It has opened up some depth of pain in me that I am struggling terribly with. The thoughts are swinging wildly around my head now. Was it me, was it them, and then I read all your posts and Vunil you are right, you are united. What seems terrible but not all that terrible to me appears to cause extreme gut reaction in everyone else.

My mum and my brother both have a very fragile quality about them that I cannot really put my finger on. If anything went wrong at home, my mother would take to her bed and not get up for days. i would always feel to blame and sometimes I would try to talk to her but she would remain straight faced and withdrawn. As a child I guess this was quite frightening. If i did something she didn't like, which was very common she would completely withdraw from me until the atmosphere was so thick you could always cut it. i remember one Christmas, something happened. I can't remember what it was but my mum just downed tools whilst cooking Christmas dinner and went to bed... Another Christmas, my Aunty came to stay. I was so excited for some reason about this trifle that my mum had made that I got it out of the frige to show her and then dropped it. i was terrified of her reaction and spent all boxing day riding around on buses trying to find a shop open to buy new trifle ingredients. my aunty was so shocked by my reaction that her and my mother did not speak for a year.

I was shy at school and very unkempt, not washing my hair or changing my socks etc.... I was bullied and one day one of the girls appeared at my house with her mother to try and sort it out. My mother sided with the bully saying that there must be something about me that this girl didn't like... She always does the same thing. If a man leaves me etc... If I go for an interview, she still tells me to tell the interviewers that she was a headmistress as she thinks that will get me the job. I feel like a whiny child at the momennt trying to get all this out. There is a voice in my head saying, it's not so bad it is just you. I'm sorry but I'm just going to keep trying.... My mum and I haven't spoken for a few months as she has currently got in in for my daughter. She cannot bear it that I stick up for my daughter and not for her. She thinks it should be the other way around and is constantly describing how ill this is making her. When I haven't phoned her before she tells me that because of me not caring, that she is withering away like a grape on a vine.....

I wish that I could tell her about my ex. i wish she would not listen and not judge me but she would be appallled at me.... I wish she didn't have to keep trying to convince herself that I am nice really...

My head is so full of all this stuff. I feel really lonely and low today

Sorry

Spyralle x
Title: Re: Shattered illusions....What now?
Post by: vunil on August 30, 2005, 08:26:47 PM: Why are you sorry? You have nothing to be sorry about.

When do you see your therapist? You certainly have a lot to talk about this week!

You have a crazy mother. That is a lot to deal with. Just give yourself the time to deal with it-- you aren't going to suddenly have all of your thoughts and feelings lined up like little ducks in a row. Relax-- I hope you don't feel as if anyone here is pushing you to suddenly have all possible insights and lack of grieving all at once. None of us do that :) It's impossible. I think it's fabulous that you are dealing with all these family issues now-- that in itself is real progress.

Of course you'll grieve the mother you didn't get to have. All you can do is be that mother to your daughter.

Please be good to yourself. You are going through a lot. You are healing-- it's hard work!
Title: Re: Shattered illusions....What now?
Post by: d'smom on August 30, 2005, 09:24:55 PM: There is a voice in my head saying, it's not so bad it is just you.

im glad you are going to keep at it. :( it sounds like you have some internal dialogue going on. have you ever thought about affirmations? they can take a while to work but theyve helped me a lot.

you probly dont want to use this one but --- since 'the voice' is saying "its not that bad'"

the most obvious one would be "it -was- that bad" (which would be fine) but if you want to get more positive -

'i deserve to be treated with respect and caring'.

or

'my perceptions are valid and im safe now'.

or.....

'it is ok for me to see the truth'.

? you know. whatever will help you start chipping away slowly at that voice at your own speed.
just a thought.
((((()))))
Title: Re: Shattered illusions....What now?
Post by: amethyst on August 30, 2005, 09:39:29 PM: Quote from: d'smom on August 30, 2005, 09:24:55 PM
There is a voice in my head saying, it's not so bad it is just you.

im glad you are going to keep at it. :( it sounds like you have some internal dialogue going on. have you ever thought about affirmations? they can take a while to work but theyve helped me a lot.

you probly dont want to use this one but --- since 'the voice' is saying "its not that bad'"

the most obvious one would be "it -was- that bad" (which would be fine) but if you want to get more positive -

'i deserve to be treated with respect and caring'.

or

'my perceptions are valid and im safe now'.

or.....

'it is ok for me to see the truth'.

? you know. whatever will help you start chipping away slowly at that voice at your own speed.
just a thought.
((((()))))

What wonderful wisdom! My hubby and I know a therapist (a personal friend) who used to run workshops for children of trauma. She would always say,"It's ok to take the time you need to heal. It takes as long as it takes and it's abusive to yourself to rush your yourself."
Title: Re: Shattered illusions....What now?
Post by: longtire on August 30, 2005, 11:08:25 PM: Spyralle, does that voice in your head talk in your mother's voice? It isn't your voice or you would just think it like *you* do all the rest of the time. The fact that this is a little voice in your head tells me it isn't yours. BTW, I still haven't found a single "little voice" in my own head that wasn't just a lying SOB.
Title: Re: Shattered illusions....What now?
Post by: jordanspeeps on August 30, 2005, 11:38:15 PM: Quote
I'm not saying I am a saint. There are many occasions when I have lost it and then I get cast in an even darker light than i am already. She has helped me out a lot over the years with money. You know what though, if I had the time to do again I would go it alone. She feels that she owns me you see, and that includes the innermost secrets that I carry...

if i may, spyralle, you really shouldn't cast your own self in such a negative light. you are a beautiful person, that pretty flower growing from the crack in the cement. don't get bogged down in the worrying about taking your mom's Nmoney. Ns use money as a tool of their manipulation and overall mindf*ck. Don't succumb to the guilt associated with having used her money in the past. Someone prominent, i'm so sorry i don't remember who, said that Ns specialize in not just manipulating you directly, but have a gift of leaving what he called ticking "timebombs," set to explode in your mind at a later date. I hope your therapy enables you to de-fuse some of these timebombs before they do more emotinal damage.

the best to you, you so deserve it!

tif
Title: Re: Shattered illusions....What now?
Post by: amethyst on August 31, 2005, 01:25:48 AM: Quote from: longtire on August 30, 2005, 11:08:25 PM
Spyralle, does that voice in your head talk in your mother's voice? It isn't your voice or you would just think it like *you* do all the rest of the time. The fact that this is a little voice in your head tells me it isn't yours. BTW, I still haven't found a single "little voice" in my own head that wasn't just a lying SOB.

Roflmao!! Oh God, how true about the voices in the head. And sometimes they are not so "little" either. I used to have bullhorns in my brain. Being equally visual, I used to have headlines or tickers that proclaimed in the largest bold type, "AMETHYST IS A TERRIBLE PERSON WHO DOESN'T DESERVE TO LIVE!!."

One thing that really helped me was to write all those parental messages down. When I did that, I could see how crazy and even contradictory they were.

I do believe there is a small inner voice that is part of my true self. It seems to be located somewhere between my heart and my gut, both of which have proven to be much wiser than the head.
Title: Re: Shattered illusions....What now?
Post by: miss piggy on August 31, 2005, 02:38:47 AM: Hi spyralle,

Writing down how you feel about what happened to you is one of the most healing things you can do. What is so nice about this board is people get it. But even if we didn't, we would still be interested in what you have to say and how you are feeling. I feel whiny at times too. So what if you are just trying to get attention--you probably need some! There's enough attention and interest to go around here.

And as Michaelangelo told the pope, "You can't rush a masterpiece". :? MP
Title: Re: Shattered illusions....What now?
Post by: irishrose on August 31, 2005, 02:58:44 AM: Hi Spryalle

This is one of the most moving threads I have ever read about abuse. It IS your mother's voice in your head. I know with certainty because apart from individual 'events' being different, your mother and mine must have been identical twins seperated at birth. Re: the money - view it as compensation, if a stranger had abused you so badly, you would be entitled.

The diaries: in the event of her death, burn each and every toxic page of them, mix the ashes with some rose petals (you) and place them in a container in her coffin. Don't let the depraved b*tch abuse you from beyond the grave.
Title: Re: Shattered illusions....What now?
Post by: Chicken on August 31, 2005, 03:58:04 AM: Quote from: spyralle on August 30, 2005, 05:38:07 PM
my aunty was so shocked by my reaction that her and my mother did not speak for a year.

Here's more proof that you are not to blame- I'm sure your aunt knew how your mother was treating you. Have you ever talked to your aunt about this and other incidents?

Quote from: spyralle on August 30, 2005, 05:38:07 PM
My mother sided with the bully saying that there must be something about me that this girl didn't like... She always does the same thing. .

What a horrible horrible woman. No sympathy? Siding with the bully? Oh my God, that woman was out to hurt you. Everything you say tells me that she just wanted to hurt you really bad, I don't know what issues that woman had but her happiness/pleasure depended on putting you down. It seemed like she welcomed any opportunity to make you suffer. I am so speechless... I am finding it so difficult to express just what a piece of work this mangled woman is. The thing that hurts me the most is that you don't see it and you blame yourself and you think you don't deserve any better, because if you felt that you did deserve better, you wouldn't find yourself in the relationship that you just found yourself in. I hope you are dealing with all this stuff with your therapist? Are you happy with your therapist Spyralle? Is she good, do you think?

Quote from: spyralle on August 30, 2005, 05:38:07 PM
I feel like a whiny child at the moment trying to get all this out. There is a voice in my head saying, it's not so bad it is just you. .

Please don't contribute to the pain any more than you have done already. Please don't kick yourself when you're down. That voice has got to be silenced. Don't take any sh*t from that voice any more Spyralle, you are an adult now, learn to fight back with that voice. You couldn't do that as a child but you can now. That voice has no power over you anymore and keep telling yourself that. Get to the bottom of it. Why don't you write down this argument with this voice and see what you come up with. I find that really helps me, it is amazing what comes out of it.

Quote from: spyralle on August 30, 2005, 05:38:07 PM
that she is withering away like a grape on a vine......

I hope she does wither away like a grape on a vine, the branch in which she clings to isn't worthy of her

Quote from: spyralle on August 30, 2005, 05:38:07 PM
I wish that I could tell her about my ex. i wish she would not listen and not judge me but she would be appallled at me.... I wish she didn't have to keep trying to convince herself that I am nice really......

I'd be careful of this kind of stuff if I were you...It's the classic scenario that keeps you in abusive situations... whether it be with your Mum, or a relationship that mirrors it.... It's that constant "if only they would see my side of things, If only I could get through to her etc etc " The hardest part is walking away -suprisingly- one would think you'd run a mile from her- but there's a part that keeps you in it, and that's the part that needs her, you have needs that need to be met. That's the same part that needs your ex, the part of you that has been hard done by. There is a huge injustice here and you are going to the wrong people to undo that injustice. They will never give you that.

Quote from: spyralle on August 30, 2005, 05:38:07 PM
My head is so full of all this stuff. I feel really lonely and low today
......

I replied to your PM before I read this post, I guess this explains just why it is that you are down. You are grieving a big big loss Spyralle. Be good to yourself, you have been through a tough time. You will get through this. As the old saying goes, the journey of a thousand miles begins with one step, take it one step at a time

Thinking of you & Rooting for you,

x Selkie x
Title: Re: Shattered illusions....What now?
Post by: vunil on August 31, 2005, 09:23:39 AM: Everyone here writes so eloquently about healing, so much more than I ever could. I just wanted to add two things about the worry about being a burden or whining or whatever--

1. When people rally around you, Spyralle, or anyone else, the rest of us get to read the posts and we really heal from them also. So you provide a good touchpoint, without knowing it, for all of these wounded souls to get some healing. There are folks who read here and never post, and folks who post but never about their own pain. You provide them a chance to read some words of hope and wisdom. and..

2. It is really nice sometimes to be the one who helps instead of the one who asks for help. I like being able to share the (little bit!) I have learned-- it does something for me spiritually and psychologically. It allows me to be the best self I want to be-- to strengthen that part of me that looks out for myself, so that maybe the next time I am tempted toward self-abuse of some kind (for me it would be dating some total jerk, most likely) maybe that healthy self will win. Reading longtire's response in your other thread just brought tears to my eyes-- it was so beautiful and on the mark, and I was on this board when he was first starting this journey and was hashing through things like the rest of us. I don't want to speak for him but I think he must really like being able to share what he has learned. I know I love reading it.

So, besides the BIG reason we gather around you (you are reasonably upset about horrible events and we share your pain and want to help if we can), please know that there are other, also important, reasons why your presence here is part of a big fabric-- the tapestry needs all of the threads. In other words, post away! That silly crazy mom voice telling you that you are a burden is not worth listening to. Your voice is valuable to us and if it isn't to her it's because... did I mention I think she's crazy?

(I know that isn't a politically correct word. I hope I can be forgiven for using it in this context? Somehow just saying she is N isn't enough)
Title: Re: Shattered illusions....What now?
Post by: jordanspeeps on August 31, 2005, 12:49:15 PM: Quote
The diaries: in the event of her death, burn each and every toxic page of them, mix the ashes with some rose petals (you) and place them in a container in her coffin. Don't let the depraved b*tch abuse you from beyond the grave

brilliant!

tif
Title: Re: Shattered illusions....What now?
Post by: spyralle on August 31, 2005, 03:52:17 PM: It's a funny thing this thread. I started it I guess because I was having trouble dealing with the fact that my ex has abused me (still hard to say).... and I wanted to explore a bit more about why I had closed my eyes to that and what to do now, but it has had a masive impact on me that I had not expected. Things that I had kind of accepted as just stuff from my past have had such a strong reaction that has hit me right in the gut.....

i was talking about the veil I put over everything in therapy today and the intense level of fear it causes to start acknowledging stuff.... The therapist was talking about the way I use others for my own identification and said that I perhaps needed to try and let go of my mothers hand (ie stop looking for people like her to repeat more of the same). it reminded me of when I was a child and my aunty took me away for the weekend. i was sick for the whole time because I was separated from my mother. alo the time when she was away for the night and I stayed at a schoolfriends house. the next night she was back but I asked to stay at my friends. By the early hours of the morning I was so overwhelmed with guilt that I begged to be taken home i was inconsolable. My mother created a dependency that was ridiculous and once she had me there she could do what she pleased I guess. i was once talking to her about the closeness between me and my daughter (she hates that more than anything, especially as my daughter sees right through her) She said intensley. NOBODY will ever be as close as you and me. I guess the diaries are written to keep me in my place even when she is not around. To remind me of just how bad I was.

i have to change that i have to start to value myself. I'm not really sure how I am going to do it but I'm going to keep trying...

Spyralle x
Title: Re: Shattered illusions....What now?
Post by: irishrose on August 31, 2005, 04:39:40 PM: I guess the diaries are written to keep me in my place even when she is not around. To remind me of just how bad I was.

Spyralle, please take my earlier advice. I had a four hour appraisal at work today and got upgraded by a grade (8 increments). It was atrociously difficult for me to put myself forward and argue my good and excellent points. One of the things I was proudest of saying was this: "I am 42, and for the first time in my life, I can get up in the morning and like myself - I take this attitude to work......".

I, like you, was brought up to believe I was 'evil, twisted, a burden, ugly, stupid and hateful'. I posted this poem ages ago and I hope it resonates with you, I have so much feeling of being intertwined with a malevolent parent and breaking free from it: It's called The Wheel.

You hated me the night you conceived me.
You hated me as I lay inside you longing to be born,
To see your face, your smile,
to feel your touch, your love,
and you have hated me ever since.

I loved you, in innocence, while you hated me.
You taught me about your goodness
as you carved the bad on my soul.
My presence pained your being –
my smile, my love, my joy.

You hated me because you hated him.
Time has fed and spread its’ seep.
Oozing, toxic and contagious.
It is all.

Thank you for hating me.
Outcast, outside, empty, bad and dead.
“The wheel has come full circle…”
I dug in the grave of what you’d left
and found an atom of life.
I embraced, nurtured, loved and rejoiced in it
As it grew like a sunny child.

I found my voice in the wilderness of lies,
fought it, feared it yet listened to its’
wistful little whisper.
Then love broke through that small girl with freckles,
And grew with her.
Title: Re: Shattered illusions....What now?
Post by: Plucky on September 01, 2005, 03:36:17 AM: Wow Irishrose,

your poem spoke to me and touched me. I was really with you up until "thanky uo for hating me". I guess I'm not there yet.
Plucky
Title: Re: Shattered illusions....What now?
Post by: spyralle on September 01, 2005, 03:57:21 PM: Your poem touched me too Rose,

"You taught me about your goodness
As you carved the bad on my soul"

That is exactly how it was for me. The perfect mother with the beautiful clothes and the expensive perfume. I soiled her image, I was clumsy, I never brushed my hair, I cried all the time, I did not achieve and when I did it was in the wrong places. I did not have lots of well connected friends.... i did not have any friends... I was always lying, I would not tell her my deepest secrets, I had the devil inside me. I would put my mother in a mental hospital. I had killed off my family, I was boy mad... i could not cook, I could not sew, I could and would not mimic her the way she wanted me to.... but worst of all I could not be.....

I know where Plucky is coming from with the difficulty in saying thankyou... I can say it a bit to my ex, who on one level has facilitated me having an opportunity to learn by having put me down in this pit of despair, but I haven't really got to that stage with my mother yet.... I am always careful becuase she has drummed into to me her fragility. From being a child I guess my fear at being the cause of her destruction has always been there.

Spyralle x
Title: Re: Shattered illusions....What now?
Post by: amethyst on September 01, 2005, 05:14:05 PM: ((((Irish Rose)))) Your poem touched me deeply.

A little part of me says Thank You to my parents too, but it's not a thanks or gratitude for the childhood of abuse, lies and hatred. I will never thank them for the childhood abuse. That would be the biggest self-betrayal I can imagine.

My thanks to them are: I am grateful that once I started to separate from my parents, to break the enmeshment, to deal with what my childhood had been, that my parents felt free to spew even more hatred and invective, to cast me out of their lives as "not part of them" anymore. Those were their exact words; if I was not willing to be all about them, as far as they were concerned, I was dead.

One of my cousins, who is on his own path of healing from the abuse that he took from my uncle, met me for dinner during this time. He told me how frightening and angry my mother, who he'd always seen as this jolly, benign and rather mild person, had become. He said that my mother was obsessed with me and practically foamed at the mouth telling everyone what a horrible, evil person I was. He told me it was all she could talk about except for her illnesses, her money and her things. He said,"She is exactly like her mother. It's terrifying." Interestingly, I had seen my cousin's father, who was extremely abusive, as a jolly, mild and benign person. The abuse in both our families stayed behind closed doors.

My parents disowned and disinherited me. When I started trying to become a whole person, by questioning, by setting any boundaries with them at all, by not playing their games any more, they decided that I didn't deserve to exist, which had really been the truth all along. That's why I had told myself as a child, day after day, "I wish I had never been born." I had introjected my parents' wishes at a very early age, probably by age three.

My parents also took their hatred and their lies out to the entire family and to anyone that didn't know me well. As painful as that was, I am grateful that my parents made it PERFECTLY CLEAR that the little part of me which had suspected the truth all along was correct. They were so clear and so toxic in their hatred of me that I had no choice but to heal.

You are so right about digging deep for the atom of life in the grave. What a wonderful way to put it, Irish Rose! I had to dig deep in the ashes and carrion to find and nurture that little spark of soul, that little girl inside. Once I found her, I couldn't betray her by going back.
Title: Re: Shattered illusions....What now?
Post by: d'smom on September 01, 2005, 07:32:53 PM: I soiled her image, I was clumsy, I never brushed my hair, I cried all the time, I did not achieve and when I did it was in the wrong places. I did not have lots of well connected friends.... i did not have any friends... I was always lying, I would not tell her my deepest secrets, I had the devil inside me. I would put my mother in a mental hospital. I had killed off my family, I was boy mad... i could not cook, I could not sew, I could and would not mimic her the way she wanted me to.... but worst of all I could not be.....

spyralle, i just want to pick up that little girl and hug her.

your mother is an adult. if she becomes destroyed, it will be her own responsibility and doing. she is an adult. you are not responsible for her 'fragility', whiich personally to me she sounds pretty robust.

i think shes faking, girl. your light has been under a bucket. but its a very very very nice light. any real mother would -love- to have you for a daughter. !
Title: Re: Shattered illusions....What now?
Post by: spyralle on September 02, 2005, 11:35:10 AM: D'smom, (Thanks for the hugx)

She is quite robust I guess. She is in her seventies and was teaching aerobics in the Spanish village near where she lived until she moved...... She goes line dancing and just loves more than anything to be in the limelight. She is always boasting that she can put her leg over her head....!!!!!

She is a very bitter woman and makes friendships whic evaporate quite quickly when the person does something to upset her. She demands perfection in everybody. I remember when she went to watch 'The full Monty' at the cinema. Everyone enjoyed the film and thought it was very funny but she thought it was a disgrace because Robert carlyle, who playeed the lead had very wonky bottom teeth. Talking of teeth, ten years ago she paid for me to have all my teeth capped. She had kept on giving me antibiotics as a child and they had stained my teeth grey. When they were done she hated them and wrote a letter to the dentist to inform him of this. They were not exactly how she had wanted. She even found a picture and sent it too him. How I felt about them was not really of any concern...

Amethyst you really touched me when you said "Once I found her I couldn't betray her by going back" That is what I am struggling with. Do I speak to her or not... She sent me a birthday card, do I write back. I admire your clear sightedness and your determination. My daughter is the same. She sees right through my mother and will have nothing to do with her, and my mother responds in the same way as your parents have. She tries to turn me against my own child....

Spyralle
Title: Re: Shattered illusions....What now?
Post by: A Guest on September 02, 2005, 12:48:01 PM: Quote
My mum and my brother both have a very fragile quality about them that I cannot really put my finger on.

This is the greatest lie they have taught you. They are not only full of evil energy and strength but they have planned, like wicked chess players, on how to check mate you. Just in case you might decide to actually see their evil behaviour and feel what you feel, rather than swallow it up and pretend it doesn't exist, they have this check mate plan to keep you:

"She will never cut us off because she believes we are weak and fragile and might die if she did".

They may not be consciously saying this but this IS the plan.

Don't accept it or believe the big lie ((((((Spyralle)))))).

Open your eyes and pitch their evil ways to the wind.

They will continue to live, to thrive, to spread their evil energy by their evil behaviour to whomever they are next able to check mate and contaminate with lies.

Don't let that next person be your daughter.
Don't let their poison be injected into her.

Suffer whatever separation anxiety you must to protect her from these evil, evil, evil abusive liars.

Would you say or do any of the things these people have said or done to you to your child?
Why would you allow even the tiniest of chances that they might have opportunity to do the same to your child some time?

Don't respond to the birthday card.
Don't respond to them again.

Begin a new life free of their evil influence and destruction.
Title: Re: Shattered illusions....What now?
Post by: miss piggy on September 02, 2005, 01:48:55 PM: Very well said, Guest. The check mate strategy...

I just wanted to add to Spyralle that I loved Robert Carlyle in the Full Monty. What a scream.

Years ago I went to see a play featuring many characters and themes about disenfranchised underdogs getting their day in the sun. But, dahling, I was sitting near a group of regular theatre goers, and well, lovey, let me tell you they were just so puzzled by why this play would be so popular. Perhaps, just perhaps they saw themselves in the greedy, look-at-me villainess who was a stage mother living her life through her daughter and also trying to look younger than she was. She was quite a send up of country club matrons. The play was great fun with great music and lyrics. If you were like me, one of the unwashed, you stood up and cheered. It was just so funny to me that this group was unmoved and not enthusiastic. Like the play had spilled out over the stage into the audience and continued on. Hah!

MP
Title: Re: Shattered illusions....What now?
Post by: Plucky on September 02, 2005, 04:26:26 PM: Hi there Spyralle,
I hope you are feeling some support and validation from the unanimous condemnation towards your sick oppressors that your story has provoked.

If a part of you still feels that somehow you might be to blame for something, think about this. You did not tell anyone up here how to think or intepret your story. All you told us is the facts. Unless you made up those facts (and you did not) then our reaction is true and genuine. We have no reason to support you if we didn't feel it. You would have heard a deafening silence, but instead you hear the "I am healing, hear me roar" of the combined outrage of this worthy group.

If you were to take your family to court for the abuse they have infliicted on you, any judgement would award you a huge sum of money. More than you ever got from your thieving family. I call them thieving because they robbed you of years of happiness you were entitled to as a child (and adult). They stole your self-esteem and with that your ability to look after yourself. THEY OWE YOU. What they took from you can never be repaid, even if you got every sorry penny they have.

A still shocked
Plucky
Title: Re: Shattered illusions....What now?
Post by: amethyst on September 02, 2005, 10:35:24 PM: Quote from: spyralle on September 02, 2005, 11:35:10 AM
D'smom, (Thanks for the hugx)

She is quite robust I guess. She is in her seventies and was teaching aerobics in the Spanish village near where she lived until she moved...... She goes line dancing and just loves more than anything to be in the limelight. She is always boasting that she can put her leg over her head....!!!!!

She is a very bitter woman and makes friendships whic evaporate quite quickly when the person does something to upset her. She demands perfection in everybody. I remember when she went to watch 'The full Monty' at the cinema. Everyone enjoyed the film and thought it was very funny but she thought it was a disgrace because Robert carlyle, who playeed the lead had very wonky bottom teeth. Talking of teeth, ten years ago she paid for me to have all my teeth capped. She had kept on giving me antibiotics as a child and they had stained my teeth grey. When they were done she hated them and wrote a letter to the dentist to inform him of this. They were not exactly how she had wanted. She even found a picture and sent it too him. How I felt about them was not really of any concern...

Amethyst you really touched me when you said "Once I found her I couldn't betray her by going back" That is what I am struggling with. Do I speak to her or not... She sent me a birthday card, do I write back. I admire your clear sightedness and your determination. My daughter is the same. She sees right through my mother and will have nothing to do with her, and my mother responds in the same way as your parents have. She tries to turn me against my own child....

Spyralle

((((Spyralle)))) Your mom is physically strong and very flexible. She uses the weakness/illness/martyr ploy to get supply from you.

After she gets done with you, you feel weak and sick...also as if you are the worst person in the world. A good indicator that a relationship is toxic is when you come away feeling drained and crummy about yourself.

Was it Sgt. Friday who said,"Just the facts, ma'am"??? Spyralle, you gave us just the facts and everyone here came to the same conclusion. If we were a jury on a civil case, your mother would have a whopping judgement against her in your favor. If we could, we would also take away her telephone, her writing implements, and put her on house arrest so she could never contact you or see you again...at least until you had healed from this and were strong enough.
Title: Re: Shattered illusions....What now?
Post by: spyralle on September 03, 2005, 10:34:32 AM: Amethyst, when you said "When she gets done with you you come away feeling drained and crummy about yourself" That really hit home. I have always delt like that in my mothers company, and towards the end I always felt like that in my ex's company too. I thought it was just me being horrible in both settings and couldn't work out why I can't muster up enough energy or enthusiam to be myself. It feels really funny the response from this post. it's like I'm daring to believe that I could have actually been wrong about myself all these years. It's so strange to realise that people know exactly what I am talking about...

I'm just debating whether or not to write her a letter. After the birthday card asking to know how I was I know it will not be long before I have an answerphone message from her sounding in the depths os despair. I am also debating whether or not to tell her my ex has left. That will sent her off into space and I will have the full works about how silly I was and what a fool I am and then she would go on about how I should be more of a housewife type and make sure all the washing and ironing is up to date and he should have had a meal on the table at the same time every night. And then she will go on about money and how he only wanted me for my house, which could very well be true, (I daren't tell her that he has stolen the 25,000 off me, because she will see that as her money. As she has given mme so much money, what is mine then becomes hers!!!!! So say she bought me an item of clothing, which would never be something I wanted....What she wanted to see me in.... She would then look for it every time she came over and say I had lent it to someone, or actually given it away, she would nearly have a nervous breakdown.

I'm rambling again I can tell my thoughts start spiralling o at all tangents when I get on to this subject. So do I write her a brief letter or wait for her to phone.... and if I do what the hell do I put in it. She writes me 10 page letters sometimes on these sorts of occasions which I have to say I could really do without, because then she will say that this is all making her ill and she has not been out because she is now unable to communicate with others. You know the story.

Spyralle x
Title: Re: Shattered illusions....What now?
Post by: amethyst on September 03, 2005, 10:47:40 AM: ((((Spyralle)))),

Why do you want to write your mom a letter? Is it to fend off more abuse? Is it to explain? Why do you have to talk to her when she calls? What part of you wants to contact her? Is it the needy part? What will happen if you contact her? You seem to know already how it will play out.

I so understand where the need to contact is coming from. I used to be there, in that place of wanting love from my parents. There is a part of you hoping that just this once I can get it right and mom will love me unconditionally if I say and do the right thing. It doesn't matter what you do....the abuser will abuse and the abuse will play out.

Honey, I am afraid you are once again going to the rock for water. She will never mother you. She will hurt you. You are her whipping boy. It's all about her. I can't put it more bluntly than that.

Your mother is not going to die without you in her life. At least probably not today. And you will not die if you don't reach out to her, even though there is a part of you that feels as if you will.

Do you have some loving friends that you can spend some time with today rather than reaching out to your mother? Can you call your therapist and let her know how you feel?
Title: Re: Shattered illusions....What now?
Post by: spyralle on September 03, 2005, 11:05:41 AM: Reasons why i wanted to write my mother a letter:

Becasue if I don't she will be on the phone and the pain of thet very sad voice is horrible

Because I want to let her know that I am here working and doin ok on my own thanks very much

because it is easier than ignoring her because that will make me feel horrible about myself

Because it is the safest way to communicate, and I know that she will be insistent on communication

I kind of know that I am not going to get what I want from the communication. Even if I did it would all be used against me as ammunition at some point in the near future. It's not a desire for her to mother me, even though of course I do desire to have a mother I am coming to the conclusion that my mother is not capable of mothering... I guess that guilt does have a lot to do with it if I am honest. It is part of this being owned stuff that she has instilled into me. It's my job to care and look after her...As a daughter you know. Another part of this I suppose is that leaves just me and my daughter.... What I would give for a big family.... I would so love that. A few years ago I took my daughter round to a work colleagues's mothers house for Easter dinner. It was a huge family and my daughter was so overwhelmed that she burst into tears. It still makes me cry to think about that....

So I guess after meandering on for a while I'm really not sure. I was really shocked when you asked me that question Amethyst. I guess that shows that I haven't really got it yet... It's so bizzarre to think of just not contacting her again...

A very thouhgtful Spyralle xxxx
Title: Re: Shattered illusions....What now?
Post by: amethyst on September 03, 2005, 11:09:11 AM: Quote from: Marta on September 03, 2005, 02:48:29 AM
Amethyst:
((((Spyralle)))) Your mom is physically strong and very flexible. She uses the weakness/illness/martyr ploy to get supply from you.

For 30 years my mom has controlled and ruled the family through her “medical condition.” I was told, since I was a child, that she has severe heart condition and is likely to die very very soon, in near future, tomorrow in fact. Our entire family routine – diet, food, sleeping habits, vacations, friends’ visits, everything – was built around mom’s medical needs because she was fragile. My dad would wake up at 5 AM to do prepare special diet food for her before leaving for work, and in general worked his ass off to dochores “urgently and indispensably” needed to maintain her well-being. The devil is now 80 and still going strong, my poor dad passed away, doing some stressful house job for her, urgently needed because of her medical condition of course. After his death, we stopped participating in this medical game, so she stopped using illness as a way to manipulate. We no longer hear of the aches and pains and near heart-attacks she used to get for 30 years.

Spyralle, there is no better ploy than capitaziliging on chronic illness on a parent's part to invoke guilt in children.

((((Marta)))) Isn't it just amazing how these invalids that are on death's door everyday outlive everyone in the family?

My mom played the heart attack victim. When I was seventeen, we got into a rip-roaring argument about college. She staggered around and clutched her chest after I had departed to my room in anger and slammed the door. She didn't inform me that she was having chest pain, but had my brother call the ambulance from downstairs. I didn't know anything was wrong until the ambu arrived. I got a boatload of "You almost killed your mother with your terrible temper." for years. Anytime there was the slightest tension, my mom would start popping nitroglycerine.

Truly, my mother did have angina. She had been having mild chest pains for a couple of years but had not bothered to tell anyone or even get it treated. (What a martyr.) However, when I got angry, which probably was the only time I ever did, suddenly the chest pain became excruciating, which may or may not have been true. What I was told was that she had suffered an MI and had severe heart damage...and that it was all my fault for getting angry. She became a cardiac cripple. Couldn't do anything...although she held down a full-time job. I was a terrible person for going off to college because my role should have been to stay home and take care of my mother.

Years later my mother had an angioplasty to get the crud out of her coronary arteries. I was worried sick because I knew she had a bad heart. Come to find out, Mom's heart was healthy...she had never had an MI. And Marta, you'll never guess how I found out. My mother, who had conveniently forgotten the big heart attack and all the shame and blame I'd taken for blowing my top, bragged to me that her heart was healthy as a horse...no scarring...no signs of an MI.

By then, I was in therapy. I am glad I was. It was a lot of stuff to process.
Title: Re: Shattered illusions....What now?
Post by: amethyst on September 03, 2005, 11:30:22 AM: Quote from: spyralle on September 03, 2005, 11:05:41 AM
Reasons why i wanted to write my mother a letter:

Becasue if I don't she will be on the phone and the pain of thet very sad voice is horrible

Because I want to let her know that I am here working and doin ok on my own thanks very much

because it is easier than ignoring her because that will make me feel horrible about myself

Because it is the safest way to communicate, and I know that she will be insistent on communication

I kind of know that I am not going to get what I want from the communication. Even if I did it would all be used against me as ammunition at some point in the near future. It's not a desire for her to mother me, even though of course I do desire to have a mother I am coming to the conclusion that my mother is not capable of mothering... I guess that guilt does have a lot to do with it if I am honest. It is part of this being owned stuff that she has instilled into me. It's my job to care and look after her...As a daughter you know. Another part of this I suppose is that leaves just me and my daughter.... What I would give for a big family.... I would so love that. A few years ago I took my daughter round to a work colleagues's mothers house for Easter dinner. It was a huge family and my daughter was so overwhelmed that she burst into tears. It still makes me cry to think about that....

So I guess after meandering on for a while I'm really not sure. I was really shocked when you asked me that question Amethyst. I guess that shows that I haven't really got it yet... It's so bizzarre to think of just not contacting her again...

A very thouhgtful Spyralle xxxx

Boy, I can relate to wanting that big loving family and to feel as if it was ideal. There is a part of me that still would love that, if it really existed. We used to have big family celebrations and would have looked very loving and functional to an outside observer because everyone was on their best behavior. They were really fun. I guess the best thing we can do as adults is to form our own family of choice.

For a long time, after my mother and I had reconciled to some extent, when she really was dying, I would write my mom letters like this, Hi Mom, All is well here. ______ and _______ and I are doing fine. Hope all is well with you, Love, Amethyst

I have pets so I would throw in a cute pet story or two to fill out the letter. Nothing personal.

I treated phone calls the same way. We were always fine and the pets were always doing something cute. (It's true...our pets are always doing something cute.)

You said...Another part of this I suppose is that leaves just me and my daughter....

It's not just you and your daughter as if you are some old used pair of shoes. When I divorced my parents and my brother, that left me and my daughter as our own family...and since I was the adult, I got a chance to do it differently than before. The truth was, even though I had been loving to my parents, they were not loving to me...so basically it was me and my daughter, even when they were in our lives.

I call it the fantasy bond. We fantasize what we never can have and never have had with our non-loving parents.
Title: Re: Shattered illusions....What now?
Post by: Plucky on September 03, 2005, 12:05:14 PM: Quote
Come to find out, Mom's heart was healthy...she had never had an MI.
You know what Amethyst? All that concern for her...wasted. All that pain you went through.....unnecessary.
Next time.....let the bitch die.
I know this is harsh and I have the whole 'duty to family' thing embedded in me too like a diseased tick. But where was her duty to you, Spyralle? Did she fulfill her obligations as a mother? Which were more significant than yours, as you were a child. I would have to say no.

So if she starts up her stuff again about how 'fragile' the aerobics instructor is.....think to yourself, 'let her DIE!!!!!' Hahahahahah. If you can. You can say out loud, "that would be awful, but only the Lord knows when our time is come". Or just something to show that your button is no longer working.

Is having her fulfilling your needs for a family? Nope. Is she better than nothing? Nope.

A mean and awful
Plucky
Title: Re: Shattered illusions....What now?
Post by: vunil on September 03, 2005, 12:46:29 PM: Quote
It's not just you and your daughter as if you are some old used pair of shoes. When I divorced my parents and my brother, that left me and my daughter as our own family...and since I was the adult, I got a chance to do it differently than before. The truth was, even though I had been loving to my parents, they were not loving to me...so basically it was me and my daughter, even when they were in our lives.

And, this is the magic part-- when you have space in your life because she isn't using up so much of it and you aren't worried about her/bothered by her. other folks will come into your life. I don't know how or why it happens, but it does. And the new folks are healthier and better for you and more fun to be around.
Title: Re: Shattered illusions....What now?
Post by: amethyst on September 03, 2005, 02:58:55 PM: Quote from: vunil on September 03, 2005, 12:46:29 PM
Quote
It's not just you and your daughter as if you are some old used pair of shoes. When I divorced my parents and my brother, that left me and my daughter as our own family...and since I was the adult, I got a chance to do it differently than before. The truth was, even though I had been loving to my parents, they were not loving to me...so basically it was me and my daughter, even when they were in our lives.

And, this is the magic part-- when you have space in your life because she isn't using up so much of it and you aren't worried about her/bothered by her. other folks will come into your life. I don't know how or why it happens, but it does. And the new folks are healthier and better for you and more fun to be around.

That is so right Vunil. This gets back to loving ourselves and being able to take care of ourselves enough to disentangle from abusive parents and to heal from a lifetime of pain, lies, and feeling we are not worthy.

There is a hackneyed old expression that happens to be true-"You can't love anyone until you learn to love yourself." We children of trauma often confuse need with love. Once we got that need/love thing straightened out, much better people come into our lives.

There is a guy in recovery who does workshops. His name is Terry Gorsky. He is absolutely hilarious while speaking absolute truth. Somewhere in this house I have an old tape from one of his presentations. He talks about relationships and how we complain about how we attract these horrible people into our lives. When I first heard his tapes, I found myself reacting with anger. I mean, I was such a victim, so beaten down, such a good and deserving person, and I NEEDED and DESERVED healthy functional relationships, dammit, so why couldn't those darn people that I attracted straighten up and behave the way I wanted them to??? I was having a real tantrum in my head, which is a good clue to me that there is something I need to learn in the message that I'm pinging about. Heheheh. One of the things he said is,"If your elevator doesn't rise to the top most days, the people that are attracted to you will be those that get off at the same floor." OUCH!!!! He goes on to say that the most important work we can do is to make sure our elevators are rising to the top....and it's an inside job.

I will tell you a funny story. When I first got into recovery, the only men that approached me were in AA, which would have been ok if I'd had some long-term sobriety and they had too. Instead, I was attracting guys new to AA who had been in jail, who had not completed highschool, who were pretty rough. They were nice guys and really trying to straighten out their lives, but they were definitely not my type. Also, I had put a total moratorium on any dating for as long as it took me to recover because I knew that dating and relationships could get me into a WHOLE bunch of trouble. And I'd chosen so well with my previous husband...the last thing I conciously wanted was somebody with a rap sheet, borderline illiteracy, and two weeks sobriety...lol. At least I was healthy enough to realize that.

I went to my therapist and said,"What gives? Where are these people coming from?" She said,"Do you think that maybe these guys are just a rawer, less educated, less polished version of your dad and your ex? You are sending out signals (at that point she made her fingers into antennae or deely-boppers and waved them, which cracked me up) that you need dangerous men. You gotta think about why that is. You are sending out NEED signals. You are confusing strong with dangerous. You need to work on getting strong in yourself and you will find that these guys will disappear." She was right.

Men still come up and talk to me...they want to be friendly. Nowadays they seem to be bookish nice guys with a sense of humor, kind of like my husband.

I have found that whatever I haven't worked on and resolved in myself will be reflected in my relationships.
Title: Re: Shattered illusions....What now?
Post by: spyralle on September 03, 2005, 03:48:09 PM: This is mystifying to me. i knew you lot were pretty strong but his is a whole new dimension for me to think about. Even though I am currently keeping away from my mother because of her feelings towards my daughter, I cannot imagine never having her in my life. This has come as a complete surprise to me that that is actually a option. i guess the way she has conditioned me to see it is that I am hers, so nomatter what I belong to her and have a duty to her. During my life this has meant that she can pretty much say to me what she wants. i remember she came to stay with me and I cooked a chilli. She sat at the table and had a forkful and said. "The food's not so good here is it".... Like we were sitting in a restaurant....!!! Or she will often giive me smiling attack. She is quite obsessed with my breasts and for a long time has been berating me because I am flat chested....Like I care or it's my fault..... She has offered to pay for surgery. I'm just sitting here thinking that if she carries on I'm gonna be somebody completely different..... I remember writing a song when I was younger and the chorus went

So I ask you now if I'd changed my face
Or the colour of my hair
Would it have been fair to be
Someone......
So different to me

This thread is really bringing up some fascinating stuff for me.... so if I keep jumping off at tangents it's just because one thought will remind me of things I haven't thought about for years. i believe my mother wanted a trophy daughter and my ex wanted a trophy g friend. I have never been much good at being a trophy. It's very boring standing still on a shelf!!!!

My mother always used to get me to perform to her visitors... Even (i'm ashamed to say) in my thirties.... I would have to sing a song or do a dance or...once a had to perform a step aerobics routine for the man who had come to pick the olives..... God I must have looked stark staring bonkers. It is making me laugh thinking about it. My mother would often perform as well, smiling this fixed smile like a pageant queen, doing whatever....

It's no bloody wonder I've ended up in this state. Can't have my hair up, too scruffy when it's down, Dresses just don't suit me.... Or she would look at me in a dresss and say...."Well you would choose that...It's so very you....meaning you look like s**t..... When I used to visit her in Spain I used to take every item of clothing I possessed in an effort to find the right something. If i did have something she liked...She wanted it!!

But until now It never felt abusive. It just felt like I was ugly and so nothing would look good. What a bloody waste of forty three years. When my dad was dying, my mother told me to tell anyone who asked that I had come to Spain to support her rather than say I had come for my dad.

Maybe you lot are right. maybe the best bet would be just to walk away. Least then I wouldn't be getting judged all the time... How liberating would that be... But this is the big problem, everything that she has said to me has stuck like superglue... I'm trying to be a better person and do the right things and I wonder what it would be like to cut my own mother out of my life. It would make me feel like a bad person all over again....... Would it...

Spyralle x
Title: Re: Shattered illusions....What now?
Post by: vunil on September 03, 2005, 04:23:03 PM: OH, my, I agree with you she is a waste of time!

You can not see her for awhile without it being a forever sort of thing where you banish her from sight. It can just be a temporary reprieve from her-- say for three months or something. Ah, what a relaxing three months THAT would be! I try to imagine you doing your step aerobics for the olive-picker and it is just really funny, and also sad-- how frenetic, how nerve-wracking. I wonder what he was thinking!

I took a month off from my family. I told them I was going to do it, and they fought it at first (testing me, I realize now, to see if it was possible to get me to not do what I said I would do) but I stuck to my guns. I had an excuse (I was going through medical treatment) but you can always make something up--- you need a little space because you are starting a new project at work, your therapist told you to take some time off, or whatever. You can also just not tell her-- she will be busy with whatever she is doing anyway. Without her supply from you she'll find it from someone else.

My point is, it doesn't have to be a dramatic declaration for all time. It can just be for a short time. Even a month, like I did, is very refreshing. Like going to the spa :)

The fact that thinking about doing it sets you into a panic may be telling in and of itself. I just bet it would be a lot more fun, and a lot more stress-reducing, than you ever imagined.
Title: Re: Shattered illusions....What now?
Post by: Plucky on September 03, 2005, 05:00:25 PM: Quote
I'm just debating whether or not to write her a letter. After the birthday card asking to know how I was I know it will not be long before I have an answerphone message from her sounding in the depths os despair.

If the reason is to forestall her reaching out to you, by all means. Send her a note in the snail mail. Don't say anything! Just, Thanks for the card. Don't even say, I hope you're well.

Quote
I am also debating whether or not to tell her my ex has left. That will sent her off into space and I will have the full works about how silly I was and what a fool I am and then she would go on about how I should be more of a housewife type and make sure all the washing and ironing is up to date and he should have had a meal on the table at the same time every night.

Well, I think the answer is obvious. No?

Quote
And then she will go on about money and how he only wanted me for my house, which could very well be true, (I daren't tell her that he has stolen the 25,000 off me, because she will see that as her money. As she has given me so much money, what is mine then becomes hers!!!!!

More accurately, YOU are hers. In her sick mind. Again, you have no reason to tell her anything.

Quote
So say she bought me an item of clothing, which would never be something I wanted....What she wanted to see me in.... She would then look for it every time she came over and say I had lent it to someone, or actually given it away, she would nearly have a nervous breakdown.

All the more reason to buy and wear your own clothing. Of course she will not buy you anything that looks good on you, then how would she berate you for being unattractive? This is what my mom does when I give her a gift that isn't money: she asks me where I got it, thinks for a while until she finds some little thing wrong with it, then asks how much it cost and decides to return it. So when your "mother" gives you anything, if you ever see her again (which you don't have to! isn't that freeing?) just ask for the receipt and tell her it isn't your style exactly, or doesn't fit, but you can return it and find something else you like better. If you can't do that, just give it away to a shelter and say that the homeless ladies just loved it and they told you to thank her!

A conniving
Plucky
Title: Re: Shattered illusions....What now?
Post by: amethyst on September 03, 2005, 10:28:08 PM: ((((Spyralle)))) Nobody belongs to anyone else. You are not HERS.

Think about it this way. Our kids are gifts that God gives us temporarily. We can't keep them. We don't own them. Each gift is totally unique and irreplaceable, a treasure, but they don't belong to us. With the gift of our children comes a tremendous responsibility, which is to give them the tools to grow up and fill their unique potential.

Let's say your kid is Mary. What a loving parent wants for Mary is to grow up to be true to who Mary really is....and for Mary to be the happiest and most fulfilled Mary that Mary can be, which will happen if we have given Mary the tools to make healthy choices. We don't want Mary to stay an infant forever. We don't want Mary to meet our needs. We don't want Mary to be other than who she is, which is a totally unique and irreplaceable individual. We celebrate Mary's becoming, which is a constant process, as we celebrate our own growth.
Title: Re: Shattered illusions....What now?
Post by: d'smom on September 03, 2005, 11:20:10 PM: -quote-
((((Spyralle)))) Nobody belongs to anyone else. You are not HERS.

Think about it this way. Our kids are gifts that God gives us temporarily........ Each gift is totally unique and irreplaceable, a treasure, but they don't belong to us. With the gift of our children comes a tremendous responsibility, which is to give them the tools to grow up and fill their unique potential.

Let's say your kid is Mary. What a loving parent wants for Mary is to grow up to be true to who Mary really is....and for Mary to be the happiest and most fulfilled Mary that Mary can be, which will happen if we have given Mary the tools to make healthy choices. We don't want Mary to stay an infant forever. We don't want Mary to meet our needs. We don't want Mary to be other than who she is, which is a totally unique and irreplaceable individual. We celebrate Mary's becoming, which is a constant process, as we celebrate our own growth.
-quote-

this reminds me of a poem i always loved which i went and looked up........:: I dont think you mom would like this poem spyralle.

And a woman who held a babe against her bosom said, 'Speak to us of Children.'

And he said:

Your children are not your children.

They are the sons and daughters of Life's longing for itself.

They come through you but not from you,

And though they are with you, yet they belong not to you.

You may give them your love but not your thoughts.

For they have their own thoughts.

You may house their bodies but not their souls,

For their souls dwell in the house of tomorrow, which you cannot visit, not even in your dreams.

You may strive to be like them, but seek not to make them like you.

For life goes not backward nor tarries with yesterday.

You are the bows from which your children as living arrows are sent forth.

The archer sees the mark upon the path of the infinite, and He bends you with His might that His arrows may go swift and far.

Let your bending in the archer's hand be for gladness;

For even as he loves the arrow that flies, so He loves also the bow that is stable.

~ Kahlil Gibran
Title: Re: Shattered illusions....What now?
Post by: Chicken on September 04, 2005, 05:30:50 AM: What a beautiful and appropriate poem D'smom! -Fantastic-

Spyralle,
I hope you are dealing with your mother in counselling, I think you are getting close to the root of your issues here. Your horrible disgusting ugly exN isn't the real problem it seems...
Everytime you open that book which depicts your childhood, I want to throw up. Your Mother is nightmare material. I honestly get a chill when I read about her, I think she is twisted and evil and very very creepy. I can completely understand your relationship with your exN now that I see what you had growing up. You had to be blind in order to survive. You haven't been able to shed that survival technique yet, which is what led your exN to hop on the bandwagon.

Get those horrible disturbed psychotic people out of your life so you can be in a safe place to learn to open your eyes. Personally, I would love to see you turn your back on your mother permenantly, you don't owe her ANYTHING. She has such a hold over you.

((((((((((((((((Spyralle)))))))))))))))))))))
Title: Re: Shattered illusions....What now?
Post by: vunil on September 04, 2005, 12:43:06 PM: I love Marta's quote, and Spyralle I think you have been really diligent about seeing forks in the road and heading down the right path. Yes, like all of us, you look back sometimes at the other paths and wonder if you made the right decision, but you keep going forward. When it came time to really process the break-up, you found this list and a therapist. When it became clear that the issue wasn't really him but your family dynamics (isn't that a meek term for what you went through!) you started looking at those. Now you are really tackling all of that head-on, which is really difficult to do. When it is difficult to do you don't back away from it but instead make yourself express your pain/worry/anger and deal with it.

Like pretty much everyone here, myself included, you sell yourself WAY short-- you have no idea how advanced and well-adjusted you are. That is something to keep in mind as you make your way through this process. Think of how far you have come and how clear it is that you are going to make it. It is clear to me just watching you so far. It's good for me to watch you because I'm learning from it, too.

What does your new shirt look like? Will it shrink in the wash so you can wear it or should you get a smaller size? The home-bound huge pregnant lady wants details! :)
Title: Re: Shattered illusions....What now?
Post by: Chicken on September 04, 2005, 12:58:38 PM: Quote from: vunil on September 04, 2005, 12:43:06 PM

Will it shrink in the wash so you can wear it or should you get a smaller size?

ha ha ha! Maybe if you put it in a really hot wash... or start eating those cream buns!

xx
Title: Re: Shattered illusions....What now?
Post by: spyralle on September 04, 2005, 01:48:28 PM: Hi all,

It has been a funny day today. I was OK yesterday. I went to bed early last night with Dean Koontz's new novel and read half of it. i didn't sleep too good and woke up this morning feeling OK and then as the day went on my mood completely crashed and I went into another paniky sate of despair..... But I'm here and feeling a bit better and very thankful that I have this place where i have room to vent and feel that people understand.

I suppose I could get in a very hot bath with the top on Vunil...and see if it shrinks to fit!!!! I'ts blue with little shoulder staps and a bit floaty. I don't know where I will go in it but it's a start and even if I can't wear it it is something I bought for me and not my mother or a man..... i love the Kahlil Gibran stuff D'smom. My Spanish teacher used to do past life regressions and was convinced that she had been Kahlil Gibran in an earlier life, but that is a whole other story.

My daughter and I were talking earlier, and I was telling her about the aerobics incident with the old olive picker.... She told me that when she used to go over to Spain on her own, my mum and her used to do an aerobics video every day... She says she knew it so well that she could do it without looking at the video but my mother would insist that she had to look at the video at all times. It's all so perfectionistic, everything has to be ferfect.... No matter what I do, write, not write, etc..... it will be wrong and give her a reason to tell me how s**t I am. She has a box in Spain of cards that I have sent her saying that I am sorry for the way I have behaved. She quotes them as evidence. In my last call with her she was going on about them and I told her that they had not been meant, just written cos it was easier. I also said that I felt she had never liked me as a child.... She put the phone down on me.... That was quite a relief really but now I know that she is wanting contact...

I have started to talk about my mother in counselling Selkie and my counsellor is making all the links between then and now especially the blindness that I often experience towards my N's true nature.

God I just had another memory... Sorry off I go again... When my daughter was born (I was married to another abusive man then who used to say I was lucky to be married at all let alone to him!!!!) my mother did not approve of the God parents we had chosen because they were not religious enough. So she decided that her and my father should be God parents. (She had also decided that my brother should be best man at the wedding even though he had never met my husband!) Anyway, for some reason I went along with this and then one night before the christening, my mothers friends came round. They were sitting drinking Martinis in their dangly earrings and my mother out of the blue asked this woman if her and her husband wanted to be God parents as well. They were so un religious you would not believe.... And so that is how my daughter has one set of Godparents that she only ever saw once..... My mum and dad off course tried to teach her some stuff like the words to my mums favourite hymns and my dad taught her that if she was naughty that was because the devil was making her do it. I was forever trying to undo the belief that the devil was lurking around trying to make her do stuff.

My N husband then nearly tipped me over the edge. I got pregnant when I was 21. He was another student nurse and a big fat Sociopath to boot. Cold with no emotions except joy when he was ridiculing me. I was only a kid... He rang my parents to tell them I was pregnant and my mother had the wedding organised within six weeks. I think she kept the curtains closed for that long because of the shame. She picked my dress ring and every other bloody thing and then the day before she said... You know you can call it off if you want to... Like I was going to. The wedding was in the church where her school was (She was a Principal/Headmistress) I did not have one friend there and neither did he....

Of course he and my mother hated each other. but I think he hated me more and I could weep now when I think of how naive I was. I used to try and make myself look nice and he would say....Huh mutton dressed as lamb.... I had swapped my mother for another one..... he would always be punching holes in the walls of our house, when he was in it and not sleeping with other nurses. My myum bought me a coat (Here I go again with the coat thing) one winter. It was cold and I actually think she was thinking of me... He just wrenched it off me and wore it himself. I know I must sound like I am drowning in self pity but I am not. I have no feelings at all toward's that man... I am just linking it all up I guess....

I left him eventually despite the fact he would beg me to return....you know the score there...... My mother was glad to have me back as I guess now she had two of us to control.

Isn't it funny when you look back. Whatever has happened to me lately and no matter how awful I feel I feel different than I did then. Now I believe that there is some hope...

Spyralle
Title: Re: Shattered illusions....What now?
Post by: Plucky on September 04, 2005, 05:36:03 PM: Quote
In my last call with her she was going on about them and I told her that they had not been meant, just written cos it was easier. I also said that I felt she had never liked me as a child.... She put the phone down on me.... That was quite a relief really but now I know that she is wanting contact...

Hey Spyralle, keep those memories coming. They are awful experiences, and recalling them and your feelings about them is not self pity. It is called processing the pain. A necessary step to healing.

I am really proud of you for telling your 'mother' the truth. And she had no response! Yaye! You shut her up!

That first N husband sounds scary. A nurse like that!!!!! I will not get sick, I will not get sick.....

I must admit I laughed at the olive story. I'm sorry. But let's laugh at your ridiculous mother, not at anything else! She is so out of touch with reality!

Yes of course she wants contact, to get her supply. Make sure no supply leaks out of you! And she will soon leave you alone.

Plucky
Title: Re: Shattered illusions....What now?
Post by: amethyst on September 04, 2005, 09:12:27 PM: ((((Spyralle)))) What you are doing right now is very brave. Processing what really happened and the feelings associated with it is the most courageous thing anyone can do. If you get the "self-pity" message, realize that it is a message of shame coming from your toxic mom.

I am sure most of us heard a version of,"Stop crying right now or I will really give something to cry about." We were not allowed to be children, to have needs, to have feelings...and on top of that, when we try to heal we are inundated with shame messages. Just keep processing and writing, Spyralle. We are here for you. I can tell you that you are on the journey to becoming whole....and that you will find more happiness, serenity, and strength than you can imagine as you work through memories and the deep pain.

It's very common to have a breakthrough one day, feel pretty good, and then feel horrible again the next day. As you remember and feel, more memories will come up that need to be processed. I can tell you that the hours of feeling good increase and the hours of extreme pain become less the farther you proceed on your healing journey. In time, you will learn to trust the process.
Title: Re: Shattered illusions....What now?
Post by: mum as guest on September 05, 2005, 01:02:47 PM: Hello, Spyralle, All:
I don't have a lot of time to visit on the internet anymore, but I wanted you to know that I still think of you and send you (all) my love. This is such a wonderful "place", full of brave life travellers. I find what I say may have been better said before, but the teacher in me thinks we can never hear the same thing too much, or in too many different ways (we never know which will "click" with us).

I think in terms of energy a lot. In reading this thread, Spyralle, I am reminded of things I have learned (through a variety of sources) about the way energy works in relationships. I have found, in my life, that many times a person has negative energy in thier body/mind, and they seek to release that by dumping onto someone else. I used to be a particulary good dumpee. I think many of us here were/are that way, as many of us are "healers" by nature. N's just love that.

My ex tends to have a LARGE amount of negative energy...and when he is not drinking to escape from it, he is dumping it....everywhere. Your mom reminds me of that. Kids tend to do that (but because they are not adults, we accept it more....the N's just never grow up, I guess). Your mom dumps on you, leaves you with HER negative energy, and then skips happily on her way. I see it with Cadbury's ex.....writing her like nothing is wrong....it's not news to anyone here, probably.

My own children can do it (we all can). My children will have a "problem" and they tell me about it. I internalize it, feel bad for them, maybe even try to "fix" it and they go merrily on thier way, having let it go (onto me).

I try now, to be aware of this in my life. Step out of my situation, as it were, long enough to identify if the energy I feel is actually mine, or if it really belongs to someone else. I find that if it is negative, and there is nothing I can do to change it, it is most likely someone else's. Then I make a choice, hopefully, the most productive one. Mostly, that means letting that energy go...back to the person it belongs to, or into the ether....and I can imagine it transforming into love. This tends to fulfill my need to "heal", but in a much healthier way (for me).
If it is my "own" negative energy, then I can heal it when/if I choose...or I can muck around in it a while to find out why it is there. But I own it.

We do this with kids in school (at least in my school). A lot of us use a great program, called "love and logic", which helps teachers and kids take ownership of thier energy. No, they don't talk about energy (it's too "airy fairy/white light" to do that, of course) but essentially, it is the same thing. A student will have a "problem" and with some processing, I leave it to them to "own" it, and figure it out. Most of the time, they can do it. Traditionally, kids in school go to the adult to "fix" the issue, or at least "dump" it on the adult. But that doesn't actually empower children. Now I let them fix what they can, and show them they can (unless it is truly out of thier control, and my job!).

Anyway, I think the most respectful thing we can do for our fellow humans of any age, or any relationship to us, is to let them learn from thier own issues....give them the power of choice, but owning only that which is ours, energetically, learning and setting our own healthy boundaries, and in effect, allowing others to do the same.

All that said, I believe the very first step in this is a core belief that we are good and worthy at our essence. That our true nature is that of goodness and love. This is the stepping off point of this work, and the thing I need to come back to time and again...(learn, fall flat, learn again....etc). That's life. And it can be a wonderful adventure. Hang in there, sweetie. You are good.
Title: Re: Shattered illusions....What now?
Post by: spyralle on September 06, 2005, 01:23:46 PM: OK, well I seem to be drowning in a strange sort of negative energy today so I am going to try to examine it to see why it is there. I seem to be on a bit of a roller coaster ride at the moment. This morning I was on a high and I went tripping off to a posh hotel for a drugs conference. by the end of the day I was right down on a major low and I'm not really sure what happened in between. i started talking to people while I was there, people who I work with and have worked with before. One guy asked me how my ex was and instead of closing the subject, out it all blurted, and from then on everyone I spoke to i was vomiting negativity all over them. About the conference, about how I hated my job Blah blah blah. i was getting irritated with everything that was said and just wanted to leave and go home. I was sick of the beaurocracy and the arrogance that has crept into addiction services and I just wanted to yell at them all. Though of course there is a large element of truth in this.....WHAT IS THE MATTER WITH ME????? Am I so arrogant that I feel I know better than everyone else.

Why can I not have an in between phase where I do not feel too much of anything. I really am hating my job at the moment, and I want to run away and start something new and pretend I am someone else rather than stay with this feeling.. I am trying to link it up to something but I am not having very much success...

Love to everyone

Spyralle
Title: Re: Shattered illusions....What now?
Post by: amethyst on September 06, 2005, 01:43:39 PM: Quote from: spyralle on September 06, 2005, 01:23:46 PM
OK, well I seem to be drowning in a strange sort of negative energy today so I am going to try to examine it to see why it is there. I seem to be on a bit of a roller coaster ride at the moment. This morning I was on a high and I went tripping off to a posh hotel for a drugs conference. by the end of the day I was right down on a major low and I'm not really sure what happened in between. i started talking to people while I was there, people who I work with and have worked with before. One guy asked me how my ex was and instead of closing the subject, out it all blurted, and from then on everyone I spoke to i was vomiting negativity all over them. About the conference, about how I hated my job Blah blah blah. i was getting irritated with everything that was said and just wanted to leave and go home. I was sick of the beaurocracy and the arrogance that has crept into addiction services and I just wanted to yell at them all. Though of course there is a large element of truth in this.....WHAT IS THE MATTER WITH ME????? Am I so arrogant that I feel I know better than everyone else.

Why can I not have an in between phase where I do not feel too much of anything. I really am hating my job at the moment, and I want to run away and start something new and pretend I am someone else rather than stay with this feeling.. I am trying to link it up to something but I am not having very much success...

Love to everyone

Spyralle

(((Spyralle)))

Oh boy! Can I relate to what you just said!! When I started to change and get better, I then wanted to change everything that was bugging me. For instance, I used to be an insurance auditor and I hated every minute of it, but I had believed that it was ok not to love one's job. Duty and a stiff upper lip and good salary were more important before recovery than they were after I started to feel and heal. Once it became clear how dissatisfied I was with my job, which was a horrible fit, I wanted to pull my whole life up by its roots and change everything all at once. I thought doing that would somehow "fix" me.

There were many things in my life that I wanted to change, in addition to the job. I finally realized that it would all take time. I'm still working on some of it...the inside stuff.

My therapist kept telling me that I should take little baby steps. She was right. I did eventually quit my job and am better for it, but I had to lay the groundwork before I did. That in-between time was hard.
Title: Re: Shattered illusions....What now?
Post by: Plucky on September 06, 2005, 03:19:41 PM: Quote
WHAT IS THE MATTER WITH ME????? Am I so arrogant that I feel I know better than everyone else.
You might be right and you might be wrong. But unless you speak up, the alternative is to feel something is wrong but just go along with the flow. That is never going to feel right. And what about your voice?

Quote
Why can I not have an in between phase where I do not feel too much of anything.
Drugs can do that for you. They can dull the pain so you can function better temporarily.

my best wishes
Plucky
Title: Re: Shattered illusions....What now?
Post by: spyralle on September 07, 2005, 02:21:18 PM: You are right Amethyst about things taking time...... i want it all to happen now. I have just returned from therapy and have been talking about where I am going in my life. I was debating whether or not to start a masters this month and I have decided to defer it for a year in order to take my time and to make sure that I can give it the time I need to and maybe in a years time I won't actually want to do it any more. I am always trying to better myself in some way and my therapist suggested that this may be to finally do that one thing that will win my mothers approval. Well I guess I am beginning to realise that that will never happen no matter what I do. We talked a lot about boundaries today and how I have none and places perhaps I need to put them...i.e. in relationships with everyone..... at work, where I just take on more and more and more..... She is trying to help me realise that actually I could live my life for me.

We talked about how I could lay boundaries with my mother so that I do not et locked in to these awful conversations about how awful I am or how awful my daughter is. The thought of being able to live my life as I pleased was such a liberating one I have to say, but i guess the doing of it will be pretty hard. You are also right about the baby steps. That is what I teach my clients (shame I don't listen to myself).

Plucky.... Are you suggesting that I take up drugs !!!!!!!!!

I know you mean AD's but I am really trying to do this without them and feel the pain. I just want to face it down. I have run away from it all my life...

Spyralle x
Title: Re: Shattered illusions....What now?
Post by: Chicken on September 07, 2005, 02:45:37 PM: Spyralle,

dunno why I felt like you hadn't posted in a long while! I just checked the date and realised that it was last night when you last posted! Doh! :? Guess I was ready for my daily fix then!

Anyway, Spyralle, I haven't said this before, but I am with you on the anti depressant thing. I believe that it's very important to feel pain. Sometimes it is your spirit's only way of communicating to you that something is very wrong and needs fixing. Obviously if it gets unbearable, the anti depressants are a god send, I am not knocking them and I am not naive about depression either, I realise just how crippling it can be, I'm just saying that i think it's best to hold off for as long as possible before reaching for the anti-depressants. I always say "what doesn't kill ya, can only make you stronger"
Title: Re: Shattered illusions....What now?
Post by: vunil on September 07, 2005, 11:14:12 PM: Just another point of view on the AD's from someone who has tried recovery with and without:

I think the idea of AD's covering up pain is from the media. They had all these stories about "happiness pills" and such and it gave the idea that AD's make you feel giddy, like ecstacy or cocaine or something. Alas, the truth is more pedestranl. Actually, for depressed or anxious people AD's can make it easier to feel pain, not harder.

Depression and anxiety do two things, at least for me (and others I have talked about this with): They "fuzz" the brain, making it hard to feel anything, especially when really hard stuff starts coming up, sending the person into spaciness or sleep or this kind of "cloud brain" I used to walk around in, and they pull the brain away from the painful subject and toward other stuff, in avoidance. One of my brain's favorite avoidances was obsession-- instead of thinking about how upset I was about XYZ thing my brain would have a slight thought about XYZ, then veer off into a really engaging obsession with Q thing instead. I never addressed what was really bothering me because I was so busy with Q. And the cloud brain was very useful for never feeling what I really felt.

So, just for a different perspective-- AD's can make it so that you can feel pain, not the opposite, and so that you can feel it long enough to really do something about it.

It is a personal choice to take them! I just don't like the way they are protrayed a lot of times in the media and I think it gives funny ideas about what they do (and don't do). They make them sound like some sort of crutch. I think of them more as a way to take the crutches away and allow real stuff to happen.
Title: Re: Shattered illusions....What now?
Post by: Plucky on September 08, 2005, 02:11:54 AM: I was totally against drugs too. But I did take them for a while because my state and actions were detrimental to building my life back together. I needed to be normal at work and I needed to think things though clearly. I agree with vunil that the fog lifted and life became something I could actually live through.

If something on you is broken, why not use a crutch until you heal? Why be macho? (as I was for too long)

But like Vunil says, you have to decide what will work for you.
Plucky
Title: Re: Shattered illusions....What now?
Post by: vunil on September 08, 2005, 02:59:40 AM: That's actually how a friend convinced me to try them-- she said they don't work if you don't need them. So I was pretty convinced on me they wouldn't work :)

Well, when the fog lifted the first day (about 5 hours after taking the first pill) that took care of that theory.

I have read accounts of folks taking them recreationally (some people will do anything!). They didn't feel remotely better, in fact they felt awful. Brain chemistry is so interesting.

Anyway, of course it's a personal choice. Personally, I wish I had tried it years ago. So much in my life would have gone better, I think, without the fog and the obsessions.
Title: Re: Shattered illusions....What now?
Post by: spyralle on September 08, 2005, 03:09:32 AM: Vunil and Plucky,

My experience last time was very different. For the first three weeks I felt like I had custard in my head. I felt nauseaus and ill and could barely think. Then the veil lifted and you are right I was able to work and think more clearly. This really did help me I agree, but the problem was that thy kept me in a kind of 'middle' space. They did not allow me to get very low, but neither could I feel really good about anything. Then I had the nightmare coming off.... As a psych nurse I have seen them work wonders on people and I do think they are a great thng for stopping obsessive thought and often that horrible panicky feeling. For some reason though this time it is very important for me to feel everything. It could be the wrong or the right way... I'm not really sure but it feels intuitively right and I am trying to learn from my intuition.

if I get to the point where I can't go to work then I will be throwing caution to the wind and trying everything I can...

Spyralle x
Title: Re: Shattered illusions....What now?
Post by: Mati on September 08, 2005, 03:48:58 AM: I have found that herbs have been very effective in helping me through rough spots, where I have needed something to make me feel calmer and reduce obsessing.

I take something containing hops, valerian and gentian called Kalms here in the UK, but there are other herbs and extracts that have this effect.

I wonder whether it is a cultural thing, or more power and monopoly by the pharmaceutical companies but on American sites I always find a much greater willingness to discuss and take medication, along with a general encouragement of others to do so. A quick look at the potential side effects is enough to scare me. But there again, I am permanently signed sick and do not have the pressure to get out there and perform. Maybe this is the difference as I know that the SS laws are much stricter there. Medication does offer a quick fix.

I took anti-depressants for four years after post-natal depression, and had a terrible time coming off them, losing my sleep pattern permanently since, and have an irritable bladder too since.

There is a lot one can do with diet to help like avoiding things that will strain the system like coffee, meat, sugar. A diet high in nutrients will go a long way in helping the mental state.
Title: Re: Shattered illusions....What now?
Post by: spyralle on September 08, 2005, 02:08:40 PM: i agree Mati that Nutrients are very important. I can't take calms because they contain Valerian which gives me very vivid and long lasting nightmares. i went to a hoeopath a few weeks ago and she gave me ignatia for when I was in a real panicky emotional state. that was quite helpful She also gave me rescue remedy.

I do think that AD's are maybe sen differently in the USA, but people seem to have better experiences on them also for some reason.

All I know is I could do with something today to help me take away this horrible knot in my stomach. My loneliness is quite overwhelming...

Spyralle x
Title: Re: Shattered illusions....What now?
Post by: amethyst on September 08, 2005, 04:19:47 PM: Quote from: spyralle on September 08, 2005, 03:09:32 AM
Vunil and Plucky,

My experience last time was very different. For the first three weeks I felt like I had custard in my head. I felt nauseaus and ill and could barely think. Then the veil lifted and you are right I was able to work and think more clearly. This really did help me I agree, but the problem was that thy kept me in a kind of 'middle' space. They did not allow me to get very low, but neither could I feel really good about anything. Then I had the nightmare coming off.... As a psych nurse I have seen them work wonders on people and I do think they are a great thng for stopping obsessive thought and often that horrible panicky feeling. For some reason though this time it is very important for me to feel everything. It could be the wrong or the right way... I'm not really sure but it feels intuitively right and I am trying to learn from my intuition.
if I get to the point where I can't go to work then I will be throwing caution to the wind and trying everything I can...

Spyralle x

(((Spyralle)))

I totally agree with you. There are many times in healing when we know that taking ADs is not the way to go. There are other times when it might be necessary. We have to have enough belief in ourselves to know the difference. It seems that at least here in the US many doctors are very eager to prescribe them despite horrible and sometimes deadly side-effects.

When I had to go to court and turn custody of my daughter over to the county to get her the residential therapy she required, I grieved. My husband was very concerned about my grief and thought that AD's might be the way to go. I told him absolutely not. I knew that I needed to get through the grief and I believed that I could, which I did. I could tell the difference between depression and grief; I cried every day for months, and I expressed a lot of pain and hurt, but I was totally able to function. I saw a therapist during this time and she helped me get through it.

On the other hand, I went into a severe chemical depression when my mother told me that she had always wondered what my father had been doing in my room for so long when I was a child. I was just starting to heal from incest and when she told me that, I fell into a hole of despair. I realized, on a level that I could not handle at the time, how absolutely alone and unprotected I'd been during my childhood, and no amount of therapy, self-talk, and support could get me out of that hole. When I say a "chemical depression", I could actually feel my brain physiology changing. That may sound crazy, but I swear this is what I felt. I'd had the same thing in the past when I took birthcontrol pills. Of course the cure in that case was to stop taking the pills.

Along with the despair came suicidal thoughts and I knew that I was in major trouble. I want to a shrink and was placed on Pamelor. I felt as if my head had been pounded into a stump. Dumb and dumber. I also perspired profusely and had a dry mouth. I also felt numb and rather high, so high that nothing much bothered me, which was not right and no way to get through incest issues. We tried Prozac next. Prozac put me to sleep. I could barely stay awake...opposite reaction of how it affects most people. We then tried Zoloft, which worked I think the way it should. The suicidal ideation went away. I was able to deal with the despair and do the necessary work to heal from the incest and my mother's betrayal.

The psychiatrist I had been seeing suddenly told me that she thought I was bi-polar and that I should not be doing "that kind of therapy." I had made the mistake, if it was a mistake, of telling her I was having some real breakthroughs and was starting to feel much better, showing a little joy and humor in her office, which she had never seen in my previous states of profound depression, dopiness, and lethargy. I disagreed with her diagnosis because I had never had the manic state of bi-polar disorder. I got myself a new psychiatrist who told me that I should proceed with the therapy and at the most, I was slightly cyclothymic...meaning I have mild mood swings. Finally, I started getting blurry vision from the Zoloft. I went to my shrink and said,"Is this because I don't need it anymore?" He felt that it was likely that I was over my depression and I was weaned off of the Zoloft.

A few years later, I was mis-diagnosed with fibromyalgia and depression. I was told I was overly sensitive to pain, a real hypochondriac. Not having experienced chronic pain before, I believed what I was told. Once again, I was placed on Zoloft, which did nothing. We tried Effexor, Luvox, Wellbutrin, and several others, all of which had horrible side effects. Well, it turned out that my pain symptoms were not from depression or hypochondria, but a real genetic disease. I took the AD's because I was desperate, but I finally gave up and started looking for other causes for the pain.

I do take an SSRI today for ADHD...Strattera. It works without altering my mood. I had taken Ritalin (horrible stuff), Cylert (ineffective), and prescription amphetamines (worked pretty well till they wore off at the end of the day) before for ADHD. Strattera is much more effective. I was glad to get rid of the amphetamines, athough someone with true ADHD does not become addicted to amphetamines. I was always worried that somebody might recognize the pills and think that I was self-medicating. Employment drug tests were another issue.

My last experience with AD's was about six months ago. I asked my regular doc to refer me to a rheumatologist to see if there was more I should be doing to recover from my genetic condition. Unfortunately, the rheumie (who I picked off a list) was an abusive jerk who knew nothing about the underlying genetic condition causing the symptoms, but thought he did. I felt as if I were back in a time warp. He told me that I was histrionic and hypochondriac, a disasterizer, and then turned around to tell me I had the "worst case of fibromyalgia" he had ever seen. He put me on Elavil to help me get restful sleep, which he felt might be contributing to my chronic pain. Instead of restful sleep, I had intense nightmares and heart palpitations. I took the pills for two nights and then decided it would be a mistake to take any more. I called the rheumy to tell him the side effects and to see if there was something else that I could take and he yelled at me. :x Needless to say, I have never gone back. I have since discovered that fibromyalgia is one of the symptoms of my genetic condition and that it is something that I will always have to live with. Some days it's better and some days it's worse.

Diet and supplements help me a lot, but I have some special needs because of the medication I take to help with the genetic condition. I eat a high protein, fairly low carb diet with lots of veggies and some fruit. I have take vitamins and extra magnesium, chromium and Vitamin B because the medication I take can cause nerve damage in high doses, and I have to take high doses. I also take L-Carnitine and Q10 enzyme. I take Valerian as a muscle relaxent sometimes. It doesn't make me feel goofy as the prescription muscle relaxants do.
Title: Re: Shattered illusions....What now?
Post by: spyralle on September 10, 2005, 10:21:03 AM: After reading Sally's thread I just want to post some stuff about my father as I don't really talk about him too much. He didn't have anything to do with me you see. Well.... yes he lived in the house but he didn't really seeme, or speak to me. certainly never cuddled me or sat me on his knee. I used to find it strange as a kid as friends would have to ask their dads before they did anything. I always asked my mum. My dad had no interest.... he used to absorb himself in the TV.

Star Trek and old westerns were his favourite. I can remember one time when my mum left him for a couple of days. This was because I was arguing with my brother. He said "I think I'll just head South".... I started to dhout at him to , I don't know make him take charge or something. So he picked up the pressure cooker and started to smash up the kitchen...

i can remember when I was seven watching him sit astride my 11 year old brother, puching him the head and the body because he had failed his school exams. Don't think anyone cared if I passed mine or not. i can also remember as a little girl cutting my hand open to try and get some attention because my mum was taking my brother to see batman at the cinema. i was not allowed to go...

Sorry I know I'm rambling again, but i just have to put it somewhere. i went over to Spain when my dad was dying to sit with him. I was there when he died and I told him I loved him. I stood at the funeral.... I had no feelings the whole time and never have had. All I could think about at the funeral was the fact that my tights were falling down...

WHen people I know talk about there relationships with their fathers I have absolutely no understanding of what that must be like. To go near my father repelled me. My mother used to also tell me stories of how spoit he was and how she had always done everything for him. I found out just before he died that he had been married before to a bigamist with whom he had two sons. Apparently the day this womans other husband returned from the war. she left my father and took their two sons. he has never seen them since. My mother paid the maintenance and they were never ever mentioned in our house. My brother still has no knowledge of this.

The more I think about this the more I realise that it must have impacted on my relationships with men somehow.... How do I know anything about them... That is maybe why I have always been looking for that fantasy man who will save me and treasure me and look after me... I never seem to find him though.... only men who have problems...

Spyralle x