Voicelessness and Emotional Survival Message Board
Voicelessness and Emotional Survival => Voicelessness and Emotional Survival Message Board => Topic started by: David P on September 02, 2005, 04:37:10 AM
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I am 28 years old, male and troubled by not doing very well socially and with others. I have a difficult relationship with my parents in many ways and recently saw a counselor who said that my parents are 'toxic'. My father is an Army Captain and my mother is the 'perfect' wife. I gather that toxic is NOT good. I will outline some of the things that they did when I was a child and maybe you would be good enought to comment, I am the eldest of three children. ----
1. My school grades were never good enough -"Your best just isn't good enough -you can do better."
2. If the neighbors ever complained about me , they would always side with the neighbor without listening to my side -" You must have done something to upset the neighbor"
3.My father would just shake me awake early each morning withiut saying a word.
4. Whenever our family went to an Army social function we were 'inspected' by him to make sure that we did not have a hair out of place.
5.Even though we had sufficient money for food, he rationed the food that we ate , We were expected to have the table manners of adults and we were sneered at if we put a finger wrong.
6. If I did anything to upset him ,he would grab me by the arm and push me in the front of the Chevrolet and say" I am going to take you to jail now unless you apologise and you say that you will never do that again".
7.We had an old outside toilet and when I was about 13, I used to retreat in there with a book for some solitude.Several times he barged in and pulled my onto me feet and grabbed my shirt upwards to look at my penis just in case I was masturbating.
8. My parents generally had the idea that they were perfect and if anything was amiss then it was my fault. They sneered and belittled me daily and tried to control even part of my life .
9.My father was horrified that one of my English teachers said that students "need to think for ourselves". My father saw that as subversive and an invitation to defy authority .
There are lots of examples in the same vein ..
Are my parent toxic or even narcissistic or what .
David.
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I think that "toxic" is a sort of catch-all word for bad parenting-- it is Susan Forward's word, I believe. I have heard her book is very good, although I'll confess not to have read it. It is a bit of a general word, helpful as far as it goes and you certainly are getting a hint from your therapist that not all was great at home. Reading over your list I guess you realize that now, too!
Your dad may not be narcissistic-- he may have some other sort of control issues. But why don't you read some of the posts here, continue to post yourself, and see if you can gain something from the discussion here? We know that your dad had some major issues-- with sex, certainly, and cleanliness it seems, and just in general with controlling everything. Trying to control you in this way is pretty narcissistic, and he might have obsessive tendencies, too. A book I liked a lot is "the narcissistic family." I think you might get something out of it too-- I think it will ring a bell with you. Basically, a narcissistic family subverts the needs of the child to the needs of the parent. Sounds like a lot of what is on your list.
At the very least, that was an abusive childhood and you probably have a lot of residual fears from being treated that way. It seems you never could relax, just be a kid, explore what it was to be "you" apart from them. I mean, young boys need a place to be alone to do whatever they want, including exploring sexuality. It's normal. Constantly being monitored and measured has to have taken its toll on you. It's not suprising that you doubt yourself now. I'm guessing you are fine socially and doing really well and the issue isn't your actual behavior but the voices in your head about that behavior. You inherited those voices from guess who.
Welcome to the board! You'll learn a lot here; this is a compassionate and wise bunch. I am fairly new and really learning a lot from these folks.
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David,
Yes, I think your father was definitely abusive, no doubts about it. Often the messages are so covert, that we can't verbalize them even to ourselves for a long, long time. There is a wide range of disorders, including N, which lead to abusive behavior. I am glad that you are in therapy.
Take care, Marta
PS: Does your father resemble by any chance the army father from American Beauty?
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David,
The following sentence was enough for me to say that IMO your father is abusive (he does not respect your boundaries) :
he barged in and pulled my onto me feet and grabbed my shirt upwards to look at my penis just in case I was masturbating.
I am profoundly shocked. Your father did not respect your boundaries.
You may also check out on the site "Dr Irene" (you may type it in Google) where they have good articles about the dynamics of abuse.
They also have a great list about books about all sorts of abuse. (this is where I started from before getting to know Narcissism).
Keep posting here, and keep reading about abuse.
-RL
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David,
I know how you feel when you are trying to get your head round whether it was abuse or not. After all if a child grows up in a controlling abusive environment, how would they know, and how could they possibly admit to themselves that the people who are supposed to love and nurture them are abusive. It is pretty clear to look objectively and see that they were. Your childhood sounds frightening, I think that it is obscene that a young child is not encouraged to think for himself and is allowed no personal space at all... My heart goes out to you. I'm very glad that you are in counselling. Keep posting here, you will learn that you are sooooo not alone...
Spyralle x
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Hi David,
Your father certainly had/has some problems, both with himself and being a parent. I'm sorry for what you must have been through. I think I know how a lot of that feels.
I'll tell you what works for me: It doesn't matter what the label is, as most labels are subjective, anyway. What matters is the perspective you can bring to what you saw, and were subjected to, as a child. Perhaps your therapist was more about trying to get you to see that things shouldn't have been this way, and it's not your fault that they were, than he or she was about categorizing your father's behavior. In my own therapy, it's been a huge and long-term issue that much of what I saw as "wrong with me" wasn't in any way wrong with me. I developed certain responses to the environment I grew up in. Those responses were natural and logical consequences of the expectations put on me. It wasn't hard to figure out how I "got" the way I am. What has been extremely hard is accepting that the environment itself was far from healthy, so the responses weren't too healthy, either.
Speaking from experience, I would say that perspective is hard to maintain. On the one hand, we hate people who hurt us. On the other, the parent-child relationship is very deeply programmed into us. It's a hard bond to break, and personally I think it should be broken only as a means of survival. I think that a lot of the people here would disagree with me on that one.
I can't answer the question, "Are my parents toxic?" I can say they seem unhappy, and your father seems pretty disturbed about some things. I can't imagine they created a good environment for children. But you're here now, and you're working on it, and I think a certain amount of forgiveness and generosity of spirit are absolutely essential to exorcising the demons of childhood. Most parents do the best they know how to do. As adults, we can look back and wonder why they didn't try to do better, we can learn to comfort the wounded children we were--and in many ways still are--but that doesn't destroy or negate the imperfect love your parents probably felt, and feel, for you. Could it have been better? Absolutely. Could it have been worse? Probably. I would say that for me, therapy is largely about keeping that in mind while learning to be kind to myself and--most important--learning to evaluate myself according to what is important to me, not what was important to them, long ago. It's harder than you might think to tell the difference.
Keep posting, and keep working with your therapist.
Best,
daylily
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Hello David P,
welcome to the board. It's a good thing that you came up here to seek understanding and wisdom. There is a lot to be had here.
Your childhood sounds like a nightmare. I agree with what everyone else said, and would like to add that although all the things on your list were perpetrated by your father, you probably have some feelings about your mother's role as well. I have read the gamut from people feeling the silent parent was another victim, to being angry because that parent did not protect the children from the abusive behavior of the active parent.
Why do you say you are not doing well socially? Only if you feel like answering.
Is it great that you are in therapy and good luck on your journey to health.
Plucky
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Welcome David,
I was doing OK with your list until I read the bathroom item. Yikes! I can't even tell myself it's a guy thing...
I still struggle with whether or not my parents were abusive. I agree with what another poster said above to the effect that escavating your past will help you discover where you picked up some baggage that you are still carrying. Therapy helps everyone, whether they were "abused" or not. It helps to develop insight into your true self.
However, miltary parents or at least the culture itself is by its nature controlling. I highly recommend Military Brats which is basically a sociology of military families. My family moved a lot so I could relate to many of the stories there. You'll find lots of new "friends" in that book. Also go to a website called Controlling Parents www.controllingparents.com (http://www.controllingparents.com) I'd say perhaps your dad was extremely authoritarian and rigid. And I'll bet you've already read or seen The Great Santini by Pat Conroy. The Robert Duvall character is based on Conroy's dad. :shock:
Something else that helped me was a community leader who held a meeting for parents. She said "we all yell at our kids once in a while, but our relationship is like a bank. How much love do you deposit in the bank? When you yell or lose your patience, it's a withdrawal of love out of the relationship. But hopefully you are all giving sincere compliiments and praise and hugs more times than you lose your patience." So maybe you want to review your parents' balance sheet here.
Please feel free to stick around. MP (that's Miss Piggy, not Military Police! :D)
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Thanks to all who have replied so far.I am struggling with much of this and reading your posts is slowly enlightening me.
My social problems are somewhat symptoms of a bigger picture - I just do not feel like an adult.
I feel as if life and the wolrd around me 'gives' me what it decides to and I almost have to settle for that. My own efforts rarely come to anything. I use too much alcohol and some prescription drugs.
Life feels hard and frustrating. My therapist says that the world generally has taken the place of my controlling parents and I am re-creating my home life . Huh! I want nothing to do with my home life and 'creating' more of what I received as a child is the last thing that I would do.
My T wants me to do a 'confrontation' . What do yoall think ?
Thanks again --David P.
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What exactly is a "confrontation?" With your own fears/past or literally with your parents?
If the latter, then that's a little worrisome/pushy of the therapist, especially so soon. I would have a really honest conversation with her about why she is pushing this and what exactly should be gained from it. Most of us here have tried some version of that and it usually does not "work" in the sense of opening up communication, changing behavior, making everyone feel better, etc. It may be useful to see that it does not work, if that makes sense, to get it out of your system if you need to and/or to prove to yourself you are not afraid to do it. Or it might be genuinely helpful for the relationship-- but how many people respond well to being confronted? Hardly anyone. And your Dad is not first on my list for a candidate for exceptions.
I would have a really honest talk with your T about this. If the answers make you uncomfortable, I might find someone else. Therapy is wonderful but unfortunately like everything it attracts both talented and less talented folks.
As for the weird irony of looking for exactly what you do not like in your past-- oddly enough, it's what many (maybe most!) people do. There are a lot of reasons for that-- to resolve the past (unconsciously), because it feels comfortable to deal with what we are used to, because we secretly are not sure we deserve better, and because we don't have the mechanisms to do anything else. And there may be 10 other reasons, too. I am really glad you are in therapy and thinking about this stuff (and feeling your way through it).
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Hello again David,
I would second Vunil's opinion about the confrontation thing...my family was once ripped apart by a person with BPD. One member of the family was advocating an "intervention". I thought this was the most ludicrous idea. Hey everybody, let's gang up on this mentally ill person. She would sooner kill herself than get help and it certainly would NOT have been handled well. And I stated most emphatically to the idiot who proposed it, what is your objective? I knew it was simply retaliation, not healing. I am always in favor of the least harmful way to communicate. Confrontation doesn't sound like that would be the solution. Hard to say, though. How long have you been in therapy?
I would go easy on yourself and not expect too much too fast. Do what is achievable. Note your progress. Reward your progress. I, too, expect the world to treat me the way I was treated in my family--"I don't belong". So I am working on changing my expectations and the talk in my head.
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I feel as if life and the wolrd around me 'gives' me what it decides to and I almost have to settle for that. My own efforts rarely come to anything. I use too much alcohol and some prescription drugs.
But you don't have to settle for that. Isn't that why you're in therapy--because part of you knows you don't have to settle, and you want to nourish that part and learn to deal with the other?
Children of very controlling parents often feel paralyzed when they face adulthood. You learned how to negotiate life by doing what was expected of you, so it is natural to look for expectations (and even to create them, to put things in terms of "have to" rather than "want to"). I would bet that in your past, volition was discouraged. You weren't encouraged to want or choose anything, but to go along with the program. If so, as an adult you're going to view the world as a program that you have to go along with.
But part of you knows that's wrong and knows that's painful, so you're trying to either kill the pain or artificially inflate your feelings of confidence and competence. Or so I would guess.
Life feels hard and frustrating. My therapist says that the world generally has taken the place of my controlling parents and I am re-creating my home life . Huh! I want nothing to do with my home life and 'creating' more of what I received as a child is the last thing that I would do.
My T wants me to do a 'confrontation' . What do yoall think ?
I'm pretty sure your therapist is right, because this dynamic has been very much at play in my own life--but I don't know what a 'confrontation' is. I tend to think it's unlikely that one event could change very much. It might be cathartic, and it might bring you some much-needed release, but will it really change the way you engage life?
What is a 'confrontation'? Do you feel that it would be good for you? Please keep talking if you want to. The folks here are very willing to listen and to help, and to let you know that you are not alone in this.
Best,
daylily
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David,
When your therapist tells you that you are recreating your homelife i shouldn't think that she is suggesting that you are doing this consciously. Often in our lives we will recreate what we know, because what we know is familiar to us.......as horrible a place as it may be.. The place we are in is usually due to "our own efforts and often unconscious ones....
I love the fact that you have used the words "almost have to settle". That implies that somewhere inside you their is a part of you that is kicking against the situation that you are in. How much alcohol and what drugs are you using. It's interesting that you use the word using and not drinking or taking. sounds like they are clearly serving some purpose for you.
Just from my own experience it is THE most difficult thing I have ever done to challenge my thinking and the patterns of behaviour I am constantly creating, but even just the fact that I am trying feels so good to me.... I also know from my own experience that he you have never been allowed to think for yourself and become an adult, how can you possibly just become one. For me becoming an adult is about doing exactly what you are doing, working with a therapist and posting in places like this, where you will find a massive amount of support..
Spyralle x
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Hi all again, My therapist is willing to coach me into having a confrontation. She is using the model from a book called 'Toxic Parents' The objective to for me to compose a detailed list of the damage and behavior that has harmed me and 'hand it back 'to them. She points out that Toxic people are rarely willing to see their sins,and for me not to expect that they will try to assist the process. She expects them to be hostile and, if I can handle that, to just tell them how they harmed my spirit. If by some miracle, they do wish to make amends then that wiil be a bonus.
I am willing to try this -she says that it will change my relationship with them permanently and I guess that I have nothing to lose on that score because the way it is is really bad. Maybe this wiil separate us for ever -so what am I losing if that happens..
I have discussed the Narcissitic characteristics of my parents behavior with her. She agrees that they do show N tendencies( they pursued their own needs and recruited their children to play a part in helping them make their dreams come true. They did this by demanding obedience and compliance and regarding us a supporting players in their mental movie in which they were the stars)
I want yoall to offer some more comments here. Am I missing something that I should know about before I do this meeting ??
Thanks- David
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Hi David,
Welcome to the board. I am relatively new here too, compared to some people.
I have been reading your thread and I am glad that you are choosing to confront yourself on your issues and problems, however, in my honest opinion, I don't think you will achieve much by confronting your parents, unless of course they have changed over the years? Are they still controlling? Are they approachable about such matters do you think?
I know I could probably "confront" my mother gently today for the horrible things she did to me as a child, and she would probably apologise and give me her side of things, (She was under stress etc etc) but I don't find the need. You know your parents yourself, and you know how a confrontation will be received... How do you think it will be received?
Also, What do you hope to achieve in confronting them? I think this is a dangerous interaction to be getting tangled up in. There is so much strength to be gained by walking away from a situation, and accepting it for what it is. Sometimes you just have to accept that you can't change people, or make them hear you, or see you or whatever. I think it's better to go and find new people who will meet your needs, rather than having history repeat itself.
Do you still wilt in the company of your parents? Do they still bring out the child in you? I can't help but think that it's far too soon to confront your parents!! I would have thought the counsellor would have dealt with you and your issues before going to the battlefield with your parents. Do you feel like you are strong enough for this?
keep posting & Good Luck!
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David, would you mind giving a little more informaton? How long have you been in therapy? What are your therapist's qualifications? Is she new at this? How old is she? Does she have a graduate degree?
I am a little weirded out that she is using one book to guide your therapy, and that she is pushing so much for this one thing. It is pretty rare behavior, in my experience, for psychotherapy. It would be one thing if, after months of therapy, you reached the point where you thought this might be a good idea and you were working through with her how to get yourself to do it because it seemed scary and not like necessarily a good idea but you really needed to do it. But that doesn't seem to be the case-- it seems as if she is just springing this on you and wants to play an active role in it. That puts up a number of red flags for me. I don't know any therapy model that would suggest that sort of behavior on her part.
This magic "change your relationshp forever" sounds like so much hoo-ha to me-- pop psychology. Basically it will feel uncomfortable and will make them reallly mad. You feel uncomfortable already and they are already fairly mad at you a lot of the time, so I am not seeing where the magic will come in. Ta-da! Same as before, only worse. I am not sure I have ever seen a really deeply ingrained behavior pattern in a family change drastically, and the times I have seen it change a little bit (and get better) haven't been the result of one big magic confrontation.
I don't think she has any sense of what a landmine this is, and I agree with everything Selkie wrote. Bringing them into it is pretty much beside the point-- you are the patient-- the point is what is going on with you.
I'm interested to hear what others say. As I mentioned, we have (most of us) tried this magic confrontation, with less than magic results!
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welcome david!
and guys, i'm wondering if the therapist has the intentions of "testing the waters" with david's parent's, maybe to see exactly where they agree and disagree with re: to david's own points of conflict. maybe the therapist wants to "rattle the cage" as dogbit puts it; to see where the boundaries are and give david some coping skills for examining what happens and the way he feels when he confronts. i'm only wondering here as i share similar sentiments to david. david, i too, sometimes didn't feel like an adult when i became one. my parents still refer to my siblings, (and probably me when i'm not around) as "the kids." this must have been by design, david. they programmed us to be this way. let's rage against the machine and deny the bastards their wishes. let's become independent and strong despite their attempts to prove otherwise!
confront if you must, david, but be prepared for the emotional fallout. it is like nothing you can prepare for. you may even have a delayed reaction years down the line to things that are said during the confrontation. it may feel great to just get in some equally emotionally-damaging quips. trust me, they will think about it, dramatize it, repeat it, opine if you will about it. but hey, guys isn't there something to be said about getting things off your chest. maybe i'm just a little bitter, so late at night, or is it early, because of what i'm going through right now, but i say you have to let your folks know somehow, what your gripes are especially at some point prior to n/c. they need to know the real reason why you can't stand to be around them, even if they are in denial about it. may i suggest writing them a letter. these tend to hit home just as hard, imo.
welcome again, tif
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Maybe I need to clarify a few things here ,
1. I have been in therapy for three months at weekly sessions for 90 minutes.
2. My T does not insist that I do a confrontation -it is optional. She wants to coach me only if I want to proceed.
3. I am not expecting my parents to understand,sympathize,empathize,agree with anything that i say or in any way show any sincere interest in my welfare.I expect a torrid time from them in the same style in which I was raised.They are going to give me hell.
4.My understanding is that the purpose of a 'confrontation' is to for me to dump their crap back on them where it belongs. My mission is to release and unload as much 'dirty water' as I can for as long as they will sit still.
5. My T and I have discussed the likelyhood of their 'freezing me out' forever afterwards.That is OK with me.I am willing to walk away with no contact.
So now I would like to ask why some of you refer to this process as dangerous or 'a minefield'.
Why is it better not to do this that to do it ??
Thanks for listening,David
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Hi David,
I've been following your thread and my first reaction was that confrontation is a dated concept...from somewhere in the '70's? Correct me everyone if I am wrong. My understanding of it was that you, as the initiator, would, by bringing up the past problems, enable everyone to have a cathartic moment and be able to acknowledge the parts everyone has played in creating unhappiness or dysfunction. There is even a relatively new show on A&E entitled "Intervention" which has all the friends and family members confronting someone who is addicted to drugs, alcohol, etc.. The difference between the concept of the show and you is that you would be going in solo to confront a number of people who have their stories etched in stone. You would be the outsider. It's a noble thing to do because you are basically giving them a second chance. I think the odds are stacked against you and you would walk away knowing you did your best but emotionally, you may slip down a lot. I tried this with my parents and it was greeted with a lot of laughter and embarassment but no real gains in my progress or in their progress. I didn't even have the benefit of thinking I had done the "right thing". I felt that I had given them more ammunition to discredit my intelligence and power to diminish my spirit. I guess my preference if I were you is to go forward and gain some sort of comfort level with myself to trust that what happened did happen and it is only a part (although at this point, a major part) of who I am. You have the strength to ask the right questions so you will have the strength to become who you want to be and regain your spirit. I just don't see how a confrontation which will put them on the defensive can help. It works in addiction based-interventions but in that circumstance, there is a lot of tangible evidence that someone is in need of help. With controlling parents or narcissistic parents who have already created a facade to protect themselves against anyone questioning their rightness, there is little tangible evidence so the discussion could go on forever. If you trust what you believe happened, (and I am definitely on your side being a military brat and having watched The Great Santini), then you have the ultimate freedom of choosing which way to go. Have you thought of looking for a new therapist? Oh, and you don't have to be like them or be what they tell you to be to be 100%!
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Wow!!!!
I am blown away by your plan. You seem to have it all sorted in your head. You know that this may be the end of your relationship with them and you seem fine with that. Do you have a good support network of friends? or an extended family to rely on? Do you have anyone other than your counsellor to support you?
What is provoking your desire to confront? Do you think it will relieve you of the anger/hatred/pain or whatever emotion you may be feeling towards them? Do you think they have any power left over you? Are you in fear of them still? Sorry for all the questions...
I can't speak for anyone else, but I thought it was a dangerous idea because sometimes people have a hold over you without you knowing. These people seem to have the power to hurt you, and cause you to doubt yourself etc. They have a habit of using your vulnerabilities as weapons against you, and you end up feeling bruised, whilst they walk away clueless and feeling like the innocent party.
I guess, I am imagining a huge row breaking out... How exactly are you going to confront them? And where will this end? Are you going to frustrate yourself by trying to make them see your point of view, and trying to make them see what they did to you was cruel, ...they may not agree with you. They may not let you continue the argument. They may kick you out of the house without you having your say, what then? This is the aspect that frightens me. It's the little boy in you coming out and trying to stand up for himself for the first time in his life, that is a vulnerable position to be in and I really hope that little boy won't be hurt again, that's all.
Good Luck & Let us know what happens!
x Selkie x
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I agree with everything everone has said. Marta, I cannot believe your mother gave you a balance sheet! WOW. When I finally tried to discuss with my family what went on, they sent me a similar list but without numbers-- it also had "what they had done for me"-- it was really a strange interaction because nothing they said addressed anything I said. Somehow anything they did was supposed to count against any abuse I suffered, even normal parental stuff. We drove you to the ballgame, so it's ok that we repeatedly kicked you out of the house in the middle of the night for no reason. Weird weird weird.
David, this part: My understanding is that the purpose of a 'confrontation' is to for me to dump their crap back on them where it belongs. My mission is to release and unload as much 'dirty water' as I can for as long as they will sit still.
really really worries me. I think the notion is fine, but it has NOTHING to do with talking to them or involving them at all. When you know that their stuff is their stuff and your stuff is your stuff, not consciously, but unsconsciously, and when you have a really clear idea of how your upbringing affected you (impossible after only three months of therapy, I think) then you will have accomplished what you want. This is going to take quite a long time-- all of us can attest to this. You can't actually dump their crap back on them in a conversation. You can just know what belongs where.
It still sounds like this was her idea, and she got it from one book. That's just the impression I get, and it worries me. It's just all too symbolic. Symbols are great, but not if they bring with them all sorts of potential fallout. And this symbolism seems like trying to give them back the pain of your childhood. You can't give it back to them; it is in you now.
Why is it dangerous and a minefield? Because it will not accomplish what you are wanting it to accomplish. Then you will be faced with doing what will accomplish what you want to accomplish in the aftermath of this horrible confrontation-- I worry that you will be worse off than before, perhaps much worse off. And keep in mind they may not fight back or yell at you. Your mother may cry and your father may leave the room. They may say things that pull at your heartstrings. Some of the things they say may be reasonable. It is not as if they will definitely respond in the way you imagine.
What if it is completely unsatisfying? What will you do then?
Another reason it is dangerous is that it is not clear yet that your parents are so horrible and unworthy of contact that you want to live without them forever. Some on this list have made the decision to do that--- most of those people had TERRIBLE parents who did things like sexually abuse them or who behaved in ways toward them that put them in severe physical danger, repeatedly. My parents are closer to your parents-- problematic, not a great childhood, a lot of stuff for me to work through, including neglect that led to sexual abuse by a stranger. But I am having a child now and am very happy we have been able to work toward a better relationship. They will always have N characteristics, but I do not want them out of my life forever. I have even seen some personal growth in my mother-- now, never bank on that! that is a mistake-- but it has happened and I'm glad we're still in touch to experience it.
Are you allowed to make a different decision than my decision? Absolutely, of course-- I'm just one voice. But please take much more time in making that decision. They will always be there. You can do this in six months if you want to. In the meantime, maybe start to chat with your therapist, and with us if you like, about your life (and your thoughts/feelings) now.
When you do decide to confront, if you do, I would start a thread here about it for tips on what to do and what not to do. People here have lots of experience with successes and failures in that area.
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So now I would like to ask why some of you refer to this process as dangerous or 'a minefield'.
Why is it better not to do this that to do it ??
Because all these things are easier said than done.
I could be wrong, but my sense is that you don't know yourself very well yet, and these things are just erupting for you, so you wanna go and dump them. The title of your post is: are my parents toxic? Only a week ago you weren't sure if your parents were toxic. Now you are ready to severe ties with them. You've been in therapy only for thre months. You may be going through swings and cycles. I think you need to be more clearheaded and less intense if you want a confrontation.
Sounds to me like you are going through this phase of anger. Let it erupt. Why not postpone this confrontation for a few months, until you've given yourself some time to get to know you better? In the meantime, cool down with your parents, see how it goes.
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Hello David,
What's the rush? If this is a good idea today, it will be a good idea tomorrow. Perhaps you should spend a little more time exploring your own feelings first (your list will grow longer!). Also, you can gain some of the same benefit of "handing it back" to your parents by writing that list, stating how you feel about each item, and mailing it to
h-e-l-l. I think the counterreaction to your confrontation will be more than you bargained for. Esp if the parents have an occupation that involves guns.
I'm sorry but I continue to feel that this idea is reckless and retaliatory. You are in therapy. They are not. Therapy is about changing your own attitudes and I think more "inner work" is needed before you take this on. Not only will they respond in their usual ways, you too will respond in your usual ways. I don't care if you have a "coach". You need more "training" first before she sends you into a championship level confrontation.
Really, three months of therapy isn't enough for a therapist to know what else might be in play besides narcissism. Narcissism alone is a tough nut because Ns don't change. It is imperative for them to maintain their image at all costs. If there are other issues, other pathology, it can really escalate. Just to return to Pat Conroy, his dad stalked him and harassed him for the rest of his (the dad's life) after his first book came out. Abusive people can go nuts (more nuts) when they feel exposed. If they see you as a threat to their image, watch out. Are you prepared to move? Are you prepared for the punishment you will deserve in their eyes? They may dream up something else besides freezing you out since this is a new ball game.
I would really caution you to go slow. A confrontation might give you just more to sort through, more hurt to recover from. Your therapist may unwittingly be changing the stakes of your family game from abusive to life-and-death. I do not say this lightly or with drama. Really consider all the consequences.
I truly feel there are other therapeutic options to consider first to get firm footing on what's going on with your new best friend, you. We're all looking to getting to know you better. Wishing you well, MP
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David,
I just want to add my voice to what others have said, particularly Vunil. This seems like a bad idea at this point in your therapy, and maybe permanently. It seems like a way of shifting the focus of the therapy from you to the fallout from this event, and I'm not sure that would be very productive.
I'm sure you know that healing and gaining voice are processes, not events. The idea that any one event can be particularly useful in that process very suspect to me, and frankly, makes me question your therapist's techniques. However, my opinion is based on very little.
If you decide to go through with this, I think you should be very clear about what you expect it to do for you. Don't do it because your therapist thinks it would help. Do it because it is the action you feel you need to take. The potential consequences are too important to look back and say, "Well, I did this because she thought it was a good idea."
There may be less traumatic ways to symbolically give your parents' stuff back to them. And don't kid yourself--even though everybody's sitting in a room together, this "confrontation" would essentially be symbolic. You can't re-live your life. You can only take it back and make it different from today onward. You may not need to involve them directly in that, and in fact, it might be very unpleasant to do so. Although you say you don't care whether you walk away from this with any sort of relationship, things often play out differently in fact. You're still pretty young, and you haven't been in therapy that long. So at the very least, I would say you should spend some time with your therapist working through your potential response to not having your family in your life. (Also, where do you think your siblings would come down on this? Do you think you would maintain a relationship with them even if you and your parents had no contact? You might want to think about that, too.)
Anyway, I agree with all the others who said, "Whoa! This is a lot--maybe too much--in a short period of time." Step back, please, and think about what this will do for you, and whether there might be a better way for you to get what you need.
best,
daylily
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Such great posts!
Two more things I thought of, too:
1. Something about this idea feels to me like "acting out"-- and acting out doesn't usually work out that well.
2. The therapist can't really be there for you in this. In the end, you are on your own. Having her there would probably be awful (and they wouldn't agree to it anyway, probably) and if she is not there she can't help that much.
David, we aren't attacking you on this, I promise! Something just has us worried for you...
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Hi David,
I just need to add some stuff into the mix... I am sitting here with 'toxic parents' open in front of me on the Confrontation the road to indepenence chapter. Don't you just love these books that are so conviced that their way is right, no matter what anyone else says. It suggests in the book that critics of this method, even prominent therapists simply don't understand. Vunil is absolutely right when she points out that the therapist will not be there...
I had a similar experience in therapy about eiight years ago. My therapist said that I needed to give it all back. I was just aborbing negativity like a sponge he said and I had to tell her it wasn't mine it was hers. So off I went into battle... My mother had come over to stay with me for one month and she stayed a grand total of sixteen hours. I did indeed tell her not toproject all her negativity onto me....so she gave me more and more and more.... she just could not stand to ear what I had to say and in the end I was completely hysterical.
I think the idea of this is that no matter what happens you have said it and that is about taking the power back, but it is now eight years down the line and I am only just learnign that my mother does not need to hold power over me.
It says in this toxic book that there are 4 basic requirements needed before doing this
1. You must feel strong enough to handle rejection, denial, blame ,anger or any other negative consequences!!!!!!
2. You must have a sufficient support system to help you through the preparation and aftermath
3. You must have reheared what you want to say and must have practised non defensive responses
4. You must no longer feel responsible for all the bad things that happened to you as a child
I suggest that if you felt all that you would have no need to be in therapy in the first place. Three months is a very short time David. Your tharapist has mentioned freezing you out, but consider there may be different repercussions to that. As a result of my experience I was left to sort through a torrent of abuse calling me demonic etc....At one point I thought my mum was going to spit at me...
Please know that I am not trying to denigrate your therapist, but just remember that this is only three months and it is a long road back...(((((((((((((((((((((((((((David))))))))))))))))))))))))))))
Spyralle x
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p.s. ignore my awful typos.... I just go off on one when I get het up about something and I never remember to proof read it...
Spyralle
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Hi David,
About this confrontation. I accidentally confronted my mother when she was at her worst, staying with us for too long, and I was pregnant, tired, and not very patient. I told her some truths that were supposed to be unspoken.
The immediate result was a firestorm of hate and vitriol that my husband and son had to live through, and my son was only 2. Not only did the hate come from her, it came from me. But hers lasted longer and was buttressed with lies. To this day she reiterates some of the lies she fabricated at this time, such as, I kicked her out of my house (I asked her to stay in our guest house) and I made up the fact that she beat us with a belt buckle. I told her how she treated my sister to this day was a disgrace.
I was glad to get these things off my chest. Her reaction made it impossible for me or my husband to see her as normal any more. These are good things. The bad things are that she took up the project of turning everyone we both knew against me. They did not see the real her. So lots of her friends don't speak to me anymore, or are just finally coming back after observing her behavior deteriorate over the past few years. She also called me a liar every time I spoke to her, for years. She told everyone that when she had an operation, she had nowhere to go after leaving the hospital, even though I had begged her to come stay with us. I finally just got used to it and didn't rise to the bait. That malevolent gleam in her eye when she spewed her filth finally dimmed.
It has been a tough few years. Very tough. I feel my family almost didn't survive. But, that confrontation was the catalyst for all my healing to date. I had not realised how abnormal my home life has been.
I think you have already realised that your home life was not ok. I think there could be some benefits to confrontation, but the cost is high. You have to really be ready for a more intense laser beam of hate than you have ever experienced before.
Just my thoughts.
Plucky
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david,
So now I would like to ask why some of you refer to this process as dangerous or 'a minefield'.
Why is it better not to do this that to do it ??
toxic people make a science out of seeing what BAD they can produce and reproduce. if you can remember that they don't have a conscious as you know it, they don't feel empathy, and they actually get satisfying stimulation from causing fear, pain, and distress in the lives of their underlings, this confrontation will become just a notion to you. when you think of your parents, as poisonous as they are, visualize them with the huge black and white 'skull and bones' icon across the face. you'd want to stay away from toxic poison if it were sitting on a shelf, do the same with your parents, unless you're trying to kill something, but 9 out of 10 the thing you'll poison to death will be your spirit.
marta:
I decided to take a stand, quite spontaneously. BOY. It is still referred to in my family as trojan war. The venom I faced for years afterwards was simply unbelievable. My mother demanded that I pay back all the money she had spent on raising me, like 20% of my salary every year. She'd prepared a balance sheet of what I owed her, and even birthday gifts were itemized!
oh, my goodness!! that's so cruel! i'm so sorry you had to go through that. it's almost like a subconscious fear of my own, that one day my mother will add up the costs i've accrued, especially those since high school, and make that a sore spot between us. i would never image that she would do something like yours, marta. but if she were to now, at least i would know to laugh in her face and go the other way. it's sooo unfortunate that you spent time and money attempted to repay this trumped up charge. poo on her for that!!! (((((((((((marta))))))))))
also vunil said it best imo:
When you know that their stuff is their stuff and your stuff is your stuff, not consciously, but unsconsciously, and when you have a really clear idea of how your upbringing affected you (impossible after only three months of therapy, I think) then you will have accomplished what you want. This is going to take quite a long time-- all of us can attest to this. You can't actually dump their crap back on them in a conversation. You can just know what belongs where.
this is the most elegant way to look at what the healing process should be like, david. and yes, there will be times when you don't feel very strong or very adult or very independent or wise or rational or healthy, but knowing the reason why you feel so horrible somehow makes these awful mini-cycles more bearable. you rebound a little better each time and you develop some tough skin after a while. you've arrived when you don't feel you HAVE to unload the crap on them, and can still find happiness and peace in your own life. i guess when you're doing really well, you can even laugh about it.
here's to doing well,
tif
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DavidP, I guess I'll take a little different approach here. I don't see anything wrong with a confrontation or cutting your parents out of your life if that is your conscious decision. Not every family is nurturing. Not every parent is a positive presence in your life. You know that for yourself better than anyone else. Somehow today my mantra is "Don't decide anything, just wait until you know what you want and go get it."
I am concerned that if you rush this it will have negative effects on you. They might even outweigh the positives of speaking your piece, telling the truth of your experience, and violating those unspoken rules not to contradict or speak out about the problems. I think these are all very good things and I wish them for you. You are the only one who will know when it is time. Maybe the time is now, maybe not. I would just advise you not to let you therapist or anyone else, including us, rush you even one second.
Good luck, and keep going for the real cure to the real problems.
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DavidP,
I'd like to validate that your parents sound toxic.
I am going to add one thing to the discussion. Does your therapist know that you are self-medicating? There is an important reason for this question. An ethical therapist with any knowledge of chemical dependency issues would tell you that therapy without sobriety is ineffective and can be very damaging. If the client is using, there is no point in doing therapy. I have been sober in AA for 18 years and I can tell you that no competent therapist would have treated me if I had still been using.
Unfortunately, the therapeutic field is full of people who are codependent and not healed themselves from their own issues. The best therapists seem to be the ones who have really worked on themselves and will tell you honestly what they had dealt with. You might want to seek a therapist with an excellent chemical dependency background. Ususally these folks are the best for dealing with the toxic parent issues too because they are very aware of dysfunctional family dynamics.
Also I am very concerned about a therapist that would let you do a confrontation after three months, especially if she knows you are using.
I hope I don't sound harsh. I am very concerned.
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David, I just want to add,
that even if there are some questions arising here about your therapist, if he/she has done you good, that is a good thing and your progress is all good. I do not have any idea whether your therapist is good or not - I've never had a good one, at least for long enough to matter. Others up here have and know what to look for.
I can just feel that in your shoes your therapist might have been a godsend for you and a lifeline. And the progress you have made has really helped you a lot. So there is no reason to rethink any of that or feel as if you have to let him/her go and go it alone or anything like that. Nor does it mean your therapist has not got your best interests at heart. But what he/she is proposing does sound a little risky to people up here who care about you. So maybe take it slow and ask more questions before jumping in.
Plucky
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hey david :}}
ive stayed out of this thread but id like to add that there were red flags for me too regarding the speed of this happening and also the seeming suggestion of simplicity in what it may do for you... it just doesnt really sound totally realistic... something is not right.. it just gave me a weird feeling and ive had enough bad experiences with therapists to know, that if they make a bad decision, its not their life... you are the one who is left to pick up the peices.... not them. i add my vote for moving very slowly and getting very clear about goals/outcomes etc before jumping in.
ive had years of therapy - and anytime ive ever tried to 'confront' my parents its been a disaster. even if i tell them straight out this is what my therapist says and ive been in years of therapy and they have never had any, therfore i might just know what im talking about, they still discount everything i say and call me crazy and a kook and hostile and you name it and its a huge scene and a disaster.
its true, you are doing this for *you*, not for them. they arent likely to change at all from this.
i also want to say, thta a few years ago, i was veyr low income and seeing a very inexperienced therapist that really didnt know what they were doing. this therapist had only seen me for a few weeks, and insisted i recontact my uncle that i hadnt talked to in years. this wasnt a confrontation, i liked my uncle, but the idea was to ask him if he had information about my childhood i may have forgotten. i felt weird and didnt want to do it. but the therapist insisted. so i wrote my uncle a letter asking what he knew about my childhood. well, two months later, he committed suicide.
i still dont know if it was related. but.... you know. i dont quite think that therapist knew what they were doing when they suggested that without enough facts and without any background in the whole story.
its just better to move slow i think and not get caught up in some therapists enthusiasm for dealing with stuff they may not really understand as well as they think they do.... so its good you are asking questions.
anyway ... take care
d's mom
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Hi all and thanks for your replies -
My therapist suggested that I go to AA and quit drinking -so I did. Two meetings later,and now I 'get' my powerlessness over alcohol. I had two restless nights after I quit drinking,but I think that tonight will be more restful. Weird people there - just like me. Ha !
The point was raised a few posts ago about my Therapist's comment that ,"Your life will be changed forever." She did not say that a confrontation would guarantee a more harmonious relationship with my parents.In fact she has not suggested that the proposed confrontation will do anything other than offer me a chance to have a 'voice' -and that alone is what appeals to me.
If my parents insult me,attack me and belittle me and demean me,so what? How can it be any worse than it is now? I still do not see how this is better, NOT done.Just because I may be hurt, bruised,and emotionally screwed over doesn't make me want to not do it. My parents are just mad and bad people who have nothing that I want. They WILL try to hurt me but that is not HARM. I really believe that NOT doing this defines me as a needy immature wuss. I am in no hurry ( as many of you advise) and my preparation will be precise and meticulous . I expect my siblings to side with my parents,especially my sister who is somewhat reluctant to speak her mind if she thinks that doing so threatens her relationship with others. My mother exploits that weakness in her.
My therapist has sugested that we could do the confrontation in HER office and she could mediate.
Sound OK to me .
Any comments from my new buds?
David
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Hi all and thanks for your replies -
My therapist suggested that I go to AA and quit drinking -so I did. Two meetings later,and now I 'get' my powerlessness over alcohol. I had two restless nights after I quit drinking,but I think that tonight will be more restful. Weird people there - just like me. Ha !
The point was raised a few posts ago about my Therapist's comment that ,"Your life will be changed forever." She did not say that a confrontation would guarantee a more harmonious relationship with my parents.In fact she has not suggested that the proposed confrontation will do anything other than offer me a chance to have a 'voice' -and that alone is what appeals to me.
If my parents insult me,attack me and belittle me and demean me,so what? How can it be any worse than it is now? I still do not see how this is better, NOT done.Just because I may be hurt, bruised,and emotionally screwed over doesn't make me want to not do it. My parents are just mad and bad people who have nothing that I want. They WILL try to hurt me but that is not HARM. I really believe that NOT doing this defines me as a needy immature wuss. I am in no hurry ( as many of you advise) and my preparation will be precise and meticulous . I expect my siblings to side with my parents,especially my sister who is somewhat reluctant to speak her mind if she thinks that doing so threatens her relationship with others. My mother exploits that weakness in her.
My therapist has sugested that we could do the confrontation in HER office and she could mediate.
Sound OK to me .
Any comments from my new buds?
David
Hi David, It sounds as if you are headed in the right direction. That's great! By the way, there are all kinds of AA meetings. I worked 3-11 when I first got sober and I would pick up my daughter and go to a midnite meeting. Some of the people at that meeting were what you can refer to as "low bottom" alchoholics, people who had really lost everything. But the kindness was genuine and they were sober. I still see some of those people today and they have turned their lives around. When I got off the evening shift, I found more meetings around my neighborhood. What I love about AA is that nobody looks down on anyone else. You will run across some people who have other issues or untreated mental illness and those people can be somewhat triggering. I've known a couple people that were schizophrenic; they were sober, but they obviously were not getting the correct medication for the schizophrenia. You will also see some folks that attend AA because of a mandate from the court and some of them don't get it....even showing up drunk or high. However, most people that attend AA are there because they want to be.
By all means use your therapist's office and have your therapist in the session. Raging N's are somewhat conscious of a bystander and often behave better under those circumstances. They will still rage, but tend not to get physical. I can't imagine doing a confrontation in public or at the parent's home or your home either.
I don't agree that you are a "wuss." Recovery and dealing with these kind of issues takes a lot of strength.
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I still vote for waiting. There will be time! Having the confrontation in the therapist's office might be good, might be awful. My parents would never ever go for something like that in the first place, so that's something to consider. Unless you lasso them, how will you get them there?
David, you are very gung-ho and are really taking charge. I think that is beyond admirable-- it bodes well for your growth and recovery.
Still... (small voice) on the confrontation thing: wait 6 months and see how you feel. I promise it doesn't make you a wimp to do so.