Are my parents toxic ?

[vunil]

David, would you mind giving a little more informaton?  How long have you been in therapy?  What are your therapist's qualifications? Is she new at this?  How old is she?  Does she have a graduate degree? 

I am a little weirded out that she is using one book to guide your therapy, and that she is pushing so much for this one thing. It is pretty rare behavior, in my experience, for psychotherapy.  It would be one thing if, after months of therapy, you reached the point where you thought this might be a good idea and you were working through with her how to get yourself to do it because it seemed scary and not like necessarily a good idea but you really needed to do it.  But that doesn't seem to be the case-- it seems as if she is just springing this on you and wants to play an active role in it.  That puts up a number of red flags for me.  I don't know any therapy model that would suggest that sort of behavior on her part.

This magic "change your relationshp forever" sounds like so much hoo-ha to me-- pop psychology.  Basically it will feel uncomfortable and will make them reallly mad.  You feel uncomfortable already and they are already fairly mad at you a lot of the time, so I am not seeing where the magic will come in.  Ta-da!  Same as before, only worse.  I am not sure I have ever seen a really deeply ingrained behavior pattern in a family change drastically, and the times I have seen it change a little bit (and get better) haven't been the result of one big magic confrontation. 

I don't think she has any sense of what a landmine this is, and I agree with everything Selkie wrote.  Bringing them into it is pretty much beside the point-- you are the patient-- the point is what is going on with you. 

I'm interested to hear what others say.  As I mentioned, we have (most of us) tried this magic confrontation, with less than magic results!

[jordanspeeps]

welcome david!

and guys, i'm wondering if the therapist has the intentions of "testing the waters" with david's parent's, maybe to see exactly where they agree and disagree with re: to david's own points of conflict.  maybe the therapist wants to "rattle the cage" as dogbit puts it; to see where the boundaries are and give david some coping skills for examining what happens and the way he feels when he confronts.  i'm only wondering here as i share similar sentiments to david.  david, i too, sometimes didn't feel like an adult when i became one.  my parents still refer to my siblings, (and probably me when i'm not around) as "the kids."  this must have been by design, david.  they programmed us to be this way.  let's rage against the machine and deny the bastards their wishes.  let's become independent and strong despite their attempts to prove otherwise!

confront if you must, david, but be prepared for the emotional fallout.  it is like nothing you can prepare for.  you may even have a delayed reaction years down the line to things that are said during the confrontation.  it may feel great to just get in some equally emotionally-damaging quips.  trust me, they will think about it, dramatize it, repeat it, opine if you will about it. but hey, guys isn't there something to be said about getting things off your chest.  maybe i'm just a little bitter, so late at night, or is it early, because of what i'm going through right now, but i say you have to let your folks know somehow, what your gripes are especially at some point prior to n/c.  they need to know the real reason why you can't stand to be around them, even if they are in denial about it.  may i suggest writing them a letter.  these tend to hit home just as hard, imo.

welcome again, tif

[David P]

Maybe I need to clarify a few things here ,

1. I have been in therapy for three months at weekly sessions for 90 minutes.

2. My T does not insist that I do a confrontation -it is optional. She wants to coach me only if I want to proceed.

3. I am not expecting my parents to understand,sympathize,empathize,agree with anything that i say or in any way show any sincere interest in my welfare.I expect a torrid time from them in the same style in which I was raised.They are going to give me hell.

4.My understanding is that the purpose of a 'confrontation' is to for me to dump their crap back on them where it belongs. My mission is to release and unload as much 'dirty water' as I can for as long as they will sit still.

5. My T and I have discussed the likelyhood of their 'freezing me out' forever afterwards.That is OK with me.I am willing to walk away with no contact.

So now I would like to ask why some of you refer to this process as dangerous or 'a minefield'.
Why is it better not to do this that to do it ??

Thanks for listening,David

 

[dogbit]

Hi David,

I've been following your thread and my first reaction was that confrontation is a dated concept...from somewhere in the '70's?  Correct me everyone if I am wrong.  My understanding of it was that you, as the initiator, would, by bringing up the past problems, enable everyone to have a cathartic moment and be able to acknowledge the parts everyone has played in creating unhappiness or dysfunction.  There is even a relatively new show on A&E entitled "Intervention" which has all the friends and family members confronting someone who is addicted to drugs, alcohol, etc..  The difference between the concept of the show and you is that you would be going in solo to confront a number of people who have their stories etched in stone.  You would be the outsider.  It's a noble thing to do because you are basically giving them a second chance.  I think the odds are stacked against you and you would walk away knowing you did your best but emotionally, you may slip down a lot.  I tried this with my parents and it was greeted with a lot of laughter and embarassment but no real gains in my progress or in their progress.  I didn't even have the benefit of thinking I had done the "right thing".  I felt that I had given them more ammunition to discredit my intelligence and power to diminish my spirit.  I guess my preference if I were you is to go forward and gain some sort of comfort level with myself to trust that what happened did happen and it is only a part (although at this point, a major part) of who I am.  You have the strength to ask the right questions so you will have the strength to become who you want to be and regain your spirit.  I just don't see how a confrontation which will put them on the defensive can help.  It works in addiction based-interventions but in that circumstance, there is a lot of tangible evidence that someone is in need of help.  With controlling parents or narcissistic parents who have already created a facade to protect themselves against anyone questioning their rightness, there is little tangible evidence so the discussion could go on forever.  If you trust what you believe happened, (and I am definitely on your side being a military brat and having watched The Great Santini), then you have the ultimate freedom of choosing which way to go.  Have you thought of looking for a new therapist?  Oh, and you don't have to be like them or be what they tell you to be to be 100%!

[Chicken]

Wow!!!!

I am blown away by your plan.  You seem to have it all sorted in your head.  You know that this may be the end of your relationship with them and you seem fine with that.  Do you have a good support network of friends?  or an extended family to rely on?  Do you have anyone other than your counsellor to support you?

What is provoking your desire to confront?  Do you think it will relieve you of the anger/hatred/pain or whatever emotion you may be feeling towards them?  Do you think they have any power left over you?  Are you in fear of them still?  Sorry for all the questions...

I can't speak for anyone else, but I thought it was a dangerous idea because sometimes people have a hold over you without you knowing.  These people seem to have the power to hurt you, and cause you to doubt yourself etc.  They have a habit of using your vulnerabilities as weapons against you, and you end up feeling bruised, whilst they walk away clueless and feeling like the innocent party.  

I guess, I am imagining a huge row breaking out...  How exactly are you going to confront them?   And where will this end?  Are you going to frustrate yourself by trying to make them see your point of view, and trying to make them see what they did to you was cruel, ...they may not agree with you.  They may not let you continue the argument.  They may kick you out of the house without you having your say, what then?  This is the aspect that frightens me.  It's the little boy in you coming out and trying to stand up for himself for the first time in his life, that is a vulnerable position to be in and I really hope that little boy won't be hurt again, that's all.

Good Luck & Let us know what happens!

x Selkie x

[vunil]

I agree with everything everone has said.  Marta, I cannot believe your mother gave you a balance sheet!  WOW.  When I finally tried to discuss with my family what went on, they sent me a similar list but without numbers-- it also had "what they had done for me"-- it was really a strange interaction because nothing they said addressed anything I said. Somehow anything they did was supposed to count against any abuse I suffered, even normal parental stuff.  We drove you to the ballgame, so it's ok that we repeatedly kicked you out of the house in the middle of the night for no reason.  Weird weird weird.

David, this part:   

My understanding is that the purpose of a 'confrontation' is to for me to dump their crap back on them where it belongs. My mission is to release and unload as much 'dirty water' as I can for as long as they will sit still.

  really really worries me.  I think the notion is fine, but it has NOTHING to do with talking to them or involving them at all.  When you know that their stuff is their stuff and your stuff is your stuff, not consciously, but unsconsciously, and when you have a really clear idea of how your upbringing affected you (impossible after only three months of therapy, I think) then you will have accomplished what you want.  This is going to take quite a long time-- all of us can attest to this.  You can't actually dump their crap back on them in a conversation.  You can just know what belongs where. 

It still sounds like this was her idea, and she got it from one book.  That's just the impression I get, and it worries me.  It's just all too symbolic.  Symbols are great, but not if they bring with them all sorts of potential fallout.  And this symbolism seems like trying to give them back the pain of your childhood.  You can't give it back to them; it is in you now.

Why is it dangerous and a minefield?  Because it will not accomplish what you are wanting it to accomplish.  Then you will be faced with doing what will accomplish what you want to accomplish in the aftermath of this horrible confrontation-- I worry that you will be worse off than before, perhaps much worse off.  And keep in mind they may not fight back or yell at you.  Your mother may cry and your father may leave the room.  They may say things that pull at your heartstrings.  Some of the things they say may be reasonable.  It is not as if they will definitely respond in the way you imagine.

What if it is completely unsatisfying?  What will you do then? 

Another reason it is dangerous is that it is not clear yet that your parents are so horrible and unworthy of contact that you want to live without them forever.  Some on this list have made the decision to do that--- most of those people had TERRIBLE parents who did things like sexually abuse them or who behaved in ways toward them that put them in severe physical danger, repeatedly.  My parents are closer to your parents-- problematic, not a great childhood, a lot of stuff for me to work through, including neglect that led to sexual abuse by a stranger.  But I am having a child now and am very happy we have been able to work toward a better relationship.  They will always have N characteristics, but I do not want them out of my life forever.  I have even seen some personal growth in my mother-- now, never bank on that! that is a mistake-- but it has happened and I'm glad we're still in touch to experience it.

Are you allowed to make a different decision than my decision? Absolutely, of course-- I'm just one voice.  But please take much more time in making that decision.  They will always be there.  You can do this in six months if you want to.  In the meantime, maybe start to chat with your therapist, and with us if you like, about your life (and your thoughts/feelings) now.

When you do decide to confront, if you do, I would start a thread here about it for tips on what to do and what not to do.  People here have lots of experience with successes and failures in that area.

[Marta]

So now I would like to ask why some of you refer to this process as dangerous or 'a minefield'.
Why is it better not to do this that to do it ??

Because all these things are easier said than done.
I could be wrong, but my sense is that you don't know yourself very well yet, and these things are just erupting for you, so you wanna go and dump them. The title of your post is: are my parents toxic? Only a week ago you weren't sure if your parents were toxic. Now you are ready to severe ties with them. You've been in therapy only for thre months. You may be going through swings and cycles. I think you need to be more clearheaded and less intense if you want a confrontation.  

Sounds to me like you are going through this phase of anger. Let it erupt. Why not postpone this confrontation for a few months, until you've given yourself some time to get to know you better? In the meantime, cool down with your parents, see how it goes.

[miss piggy]

Hello David,

What's the rush?  If this is a good idea today, it will be a good idea tomorrow.  Perhaps you should spend a little more time exploring your own feelings first (your list will grow longer!).  Also, you can gain some of the same benefit of "handing it back" to your parents by writing that list, stating how you feel about each item, and mailing it to
h-e-l-l.  I think the counterreaction to your confrontation will be more than you bargained for.  Esp if the parents have an occupation that involves guns.  

I'm sorry but I continue to feel that this idea is reckless and retaliatory.  You are in therapy.  They are not.  Therapy is about changing your own attitudes and I think more "inner work" is needed before you take this on.  Not only will they respond in their usual ways, you too will respond in your usual ways.  I don't care if you have a "coach".  You need more "training" first before she sends you into a championship level confrontation.  

Really, three months of therapy isn't enough for a therapist to know what else might be in play besides narcissism.  Narcissism alone is a tough nut because Ns don't change.  It is imperative for them to maintain their image at all costs.  If there are other issues, other pathology, it can really escalate.  Just to return to Pat Conroy, his dad stalked him and harassed him for the rest of his (the dad's life) after his first book came out.  Abusive people can go nuts (more nuts) when they feel exposed.  If they see you as a threat to their image, watch out.  Are you prepared to move?  Are you prepared for the punishment you will deserve in their eyes?  They may dream up something else besides freezing you out since this is a new ball game.  

I would really caution you to go slow.  A confrontation might give you just more to sort through, more hurt to recover from.  Your therapist may unwittingly be changing the stakes of your family game from abusive to life-and-death.  I do not say this lightly or with drama.  Really consider all the consequences.  

I truly feel there are other therapeutic options to consider first to get firm footing on what's going on with your new best friend, you.  We're all looking to getting to know you better.  Wishing you well, MP

[daylily]

David,

I just want to add my voice to what others have said, particularly Vunil.  This seems like a bad idea at this point in your therapy, and maybe permanently.  It seems like a way of shifting the focus of the therapy from you to the fallout from this event, and I'm not sure that would be very productive.

I'm sure you know that healing and gaining voice are processes, not events.  The idea that any one event can be particularly useful in that process very suspect to me, and frankly, makes me question your therapist's techniques.  However, my opinion is based on very little.

If you decide to go through with this, I think you should be very clear about what you expect it to do for you.  Don't do it because your therapist thinks it would help.  Do it because it is the action you feel you need to take.  The potential consequences are too important to look back and say, "Well, I did this because she thought it was a good idea."

There may be less traumatic ways to symbolically give your parents' stuff back to them.  And don't kid yourself--even though everybody's sitting in a room together, this "confrontation" would essentially be symbolic.  You can't re-live your life.  You can only take it back and make it different from today onward.  You may not need to involve them directly in that, and in fact, it might be very unpleasant to do so.  Although you say you don't care whether you walk away from this with any sort of relationship, things often play out differently in fact.  You're still pretty young, and you haven't been in therapy that long.  So at the very least, I would say you should spend some time with your therapist working through your potential response to not having your family in your life.  (Also, where do you think your siblings would come down on this?  Do you think you would maintain a relationship with them even if you and your parents had no contact?  You might want to think about that, too.)

Anyway, I agree with all the others who said, "Whoa!  This is a lot--maybe too much--in a short period of time."  Step back, please, and think about what this will do for you, and whether there might be a better way for you to get what you need.

best,
daylily

[vunil]

Such great posts!

Two more things I thought of, too:

1.  Something about this idea feels to me like "acting out"-- and acting out doesn't usually work out that well.
2.  The therapist can't really be there for you in this.  In the end, you are on your own.  Having her there would probably be awful (and they wouldn't agree to it anyway, probably) and if she is not there she can't help that much.

David, we aren't attacking you on this, I promise!  Something just has us worried for you...

[spyralle]

Hi David,

I just need to add some stuff into the mix...  I am sitting here with 'toxic parents' open in front of me on the Confrontation the road to indepenence chapter.  Don't you just love these books that are so conviced that their way is right, no matter what anyone else says.  It suggests in the book that critics of this method, even prominent therapists simply don't understand.  Vunil is absolutely right when she points out that the therapist will not be there...

I had a similar experience in therapy about eiight years ago.  My therapist said that I needed to give it all back.  I was just aborbing negativity like a sponge he said and I had to tell her it wasn't mine it was hers.  So off I went into battle...  My mother had come over to stay with me for one month and she stayed a grand total of sixteen hours.  I did indeed tell her not toproject all her negativity onto me....so she gave me more and more and more....  she just could not stand to ear what I had to say and in the end I was completely hysterical.

I think the idea of this is that no matter what happens you have said it and that is about taking the power back, but it is now eight years down the line and I am only just learnign that my mother does not need to hold power over me. 

It says in this toxic book that there are 4 basic requirements needed before doing this

1.  You must feel strong enough to handle rejection, denial, blame ,anger or any other negative consequences!!!!!!

2.  You must have a sufficient support system to help you through the preparation and aftermath

3.  You must have reheared what you want to say and must have practised non defensive responses

4.  You must no longer feel responsible for all the bad things that happened to you as a child

I suggest that if you felt all that you would have no need to be in therapy in the first place.  Three months is a very short time David.  Your tharapist has mentioned freezing you out, but consider there may be different repercussions to that.  As a result of my experience I was left to sort through a torrent of abuse calling me demonic etc....At one point I thought my mum was going to spit at me...

Please know that I am not trying to denigrate your therapist, but just remember that this is only three months and it is a long road back...(((((((((((((((((((((((((((David))))))))))))))))))))))))))))

Spyralle x

[spyralle]

p.s. ignore my awful typos....  I just go off on one when I get het up about something and I never remember to proof read it...

Spyralle

[Plucky]

Hi David,
About this confrontation.  I accidentally confronted my mother when she was at her worst, staying with us for too long, and I was pregnant, tired, and not very patient.  I told her some truths that were supposed to be unspoken.

The immediate result was a firestorm of hate and vitriol that my husband and son had to live through, and my son was only 2.   Not only did the hate come from her, it came from me.  But hers lasted longer and was buttressed with lies.  To this day she reiterates some of the lies she fabricated at this time, such as, I kicked her out of my house (I asked her to stay in our guest house) and I made up the fact that she beat us with a belt buckle.    I told her how she treated my sister to this day was a disgrace. 

I was glad to get these things off my chest.  Her reaction made it impossible for me or my husband to see her as normal any more.  These are good things.  The bad things are that she took up the project of turning everyone we both knew against me.  They did not see the real her.   So lots of her friends don't speak to me anymore, or are just finally coming back after observing her behavior deteriorate over the past few years.  She also called me a liar every time I spoke to her, for years.  She told everyone that when she had an operation, she had nowhere to go after leaving the hospital, even though I had begged her to come stay with us.  I finally just got used to it and didn't rise to the bait.  That malevolent gleam in her eye when she spewed her filth finally dimmed.

It has been a tough few years.  Very tough.  I feel my family almost didn't survive.  But, that confrontation was the catalyst for all my healing to date.   I had not realised how abnormal my home life has been. 

I think you have already realised that your home life was not ok.   I think there could be some benefits to confrontation, but the cost is high.   You have to really be ready for a more intense laser beam of hate than you have ever experienced before.

Just my thoughts.
Plucky

[jordanspeeps]

david,

So now I would like to ask why some of you refer to this process as dangerous or 'a minefield'.
Why is it better not to do this that to do it ??

toxic people make a science out of seeing what BAD they can produce and reproduce.  if you can remember that they don't have a conscious as you know it, they don't feel empathy, and they actually get satisfying stimulation from causing fear, pain, and distress in the lives of their underlings, this confrontation will become just a notion to you.  when you think of your parents, as poisonous as they are, visualize them with the huge black and white 'skull and bones' icon across the face.  you'd want to stay away from toxic poison if it were sitting on a shelf, do the same with your parents, unless you're trying to kill something, but 9 out of 10 the thing you'll poison to death will be your spirit.

marta:

I decided to take a stand, quite spontaneously. BOY. It is still referred to in my family as trojan war. The venom I faced for years afterwards was simply unbelievable. My mother demanded that I pay back all the money she had spent on raising me, like 20% of my salary every year. She'd prepared a balance sheet of what I owed her, and even birthday gifts were itemized!

oh, my goodness!! that's so cruel! i'm so sorry you had to go through that.  it's almost like a subconscious fear of my own, that one day my mother will add up the costs i've accrued, especially those since high school, and make that a sore spot between us.  i would never image that she would do something like yours, marta.  but if she were to now, at least i would know to laugh in her face and go the other way.  it's sooo unfortunate that you spent time and money attempted to repay this trumped up charge.  poo on her for that!!!   (((((((((((marta))))))))))

also vunil said it best imo:

When you know that their stuff is their stuff and your stuff is your stuff, not consciously, but unsconsciously, and when you have a really clear idea of how your upbringing affected you (impossible after only three months of therapy, I think) then you will have accomplished what you want.  This is going to take quite a long time-- all of us can attest to this.  You can't actually dump their crap back on them in a conversation.  You can just know what belongs where.  

this is the most elegant way to look at what the healing process should be like, david.  and yes, there will be times when you don't feel very strong or very adult or very independent or wise or rational or healthy, but knowing the reason why you feel so horrible somehow makes these awful mini-cycles more bearable.  you rebound a little better each time and you develop some tough skin after a while.  you've arrived when you don't feel you HAVE to unload the crap on them, and can still find happiness and peace in your own life.  i guess when you're doing really well, you can even laugh about it.

here's to doing well,

tif

[longtire]

DavidP, I guess I'll take a little different approach here.  I don't see anything wrong with a confrontation or cutting your parents out of your life if that is your conscious decision.  Not every family is nurturing.  Not every parent is a positive presence in your life.  You know that for yourself better than anyone else.  Somehow today my mantra is "Don't decide anything, just wait until you know what you want and go get it."

I am concerned that if you rush this it will have negative effects on you.  They might even outweigh the positives of speaking your piece, telling the truth of your experience, and violating those unspoken rules not to contradict or speak out about the problems.  I think these are all very good things and I wish them for you.  You are the only one who will know when it is time.  Maybe the time is now, maybe not.  I would just advise you not to let you therapist or anyone else, including us, rush you even one second.

Good luck, and keep going for the real cure to the real problems.