Voicelessness and Emotional Survival Message Board
Voicelessness and Emotional Survival => Voicelessness and Emotional Survival Message Board => Topic started by: Chicken on November 20, 2005, 01:44:55 PM
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I am really upset...
A few weeks ago, my counsellor hinted that I may be avoiding intimacy with friends as well as boyfriends. It really touched a nerve with me and I didn't take it well, as I felt as though I never had a problem with my friendships. I have no problem making friends and I thought this was the one area of my life where I had healthy interactions!
Anyway, the whole thing has opened up a can of worms. I find myself analysing my friendships and I have no idea whether they are ok or not, it's like I have lost a sense of what is ok now. When you have been happy with something all along, and someone tells you it's not healthy, then it sort of really messes up your perception of what's ok.
I find myself trying out different approaches with my friends, I think about dumping them, find myself being sensitive about the way they treat me when I never had a problem with it before. :(
Is this how I am avoiding intimacy? Because I have such loose easy going, no-ties friendships?
Say for example, I have a good friend, lets call her Anna. She called me on Friday asking what I am up to that night etc, I texted her telling her that I couldn't take her call as I was working, and that I was free on Saturday and would love to hang out if she's free, and she didn't get back to me. Now this was something I never took notice of before, but all of a sudden, since my counsellor opened this can of worms, I am really sensitive to small things like this. I am afraid I am going to mess up my friendships with all this stuff. I am really torn as to whether I am being mistreated or not!? I don't want people to take advantage of me.
I give myself away too easily maybe, without conditions. I'm not sure about this though... it's new territory
I am angry now with Anna for not getting back to me, then I think: she doesn't mean it, we are all so busy, (most of our friends have two jobs so time is precious) and she probably just forgot. I never had a problem about it before and I don't want to suddenly turn into a freak. This is really upsetting me. I think this is why I prefer to be alone. I am certainly not in the mood to meet up with any one of them again for a while. I don't know how to handle the feelings I am having about this. I am hurt and angry. I feel like I want to punish her, I know this is wrong, but she can't just keep me hanging on, but then I think I am being way too hard on her. No one could ever live up to my expectations... I'm sure the poor girl has no idea I am upset about this.
I think I preferred being ignorant about this kind of thing... I was happy and this kind of thing never bothered me before, why now? I don't want to make problems when there are none. Am I over reacting?
I'm better off alone.
I always get back to people when they call or text me. I don't think I let people down like this so it's not like we have this arrangement! There have been occasions where I have had to cancel arrangements, but I always let people know.
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I always get back to people when they call or text me. I don't think I let people down like this so it's not like we have this arrangement! There have been occasions where I have had to cancel arrangements, but I always let people know.
I'm sorry to hear how upset you are Selkie ((((((((((((((((hugs))))))))))))))))))
Do your friends do the same with you? If you ring them, do they call you back within a few days, do they let you know when they have to cancel agreements? It's a two way thing and I feel depending on how your friends treat you is possible way of finding the answer to this.
It depends how good a friend Anna is.... can you talk to her about what your therapist said and why you are feeling upset with her? Or maybe you can say to Anna, that although you appreciate she was busy, you'd like it if she could drop you a text next time she knows she's not able to make it, just to let you know. I have a friend who works very hard, she is always working here, there and everywhere. She has a high powered job and her job comes first. She has phoned me half an hour before we are due to meet several times because she's in another part of the country and can't get back in time, but she's always very apologetic and I know what her livestyle is like and that she's been working away for half the week. Also it can be weeks before I hear from her, again due to work.
Take care Selkie
H&H xx
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Hi H&H,
I am very understanding, and if I had a friend who couldn't make it for this reason or that reason it is not a problem with me. I just like to know. What bothers me is that they don't respond sometimes and they seem to think it's ok. I asked my friend if she'd like to meet me on Saturday and Saturday (yesterday) came and went and she didn't respond. I don't want to approach her about it as I don't want her to think I am being anal.... I am not sure if I am right in feeling this way or if this is all in my head... maybe I am over reacting.
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In your last post about this, the opening of the can of worms, you were noticing that after being with your friends you wanted to spend time alone and away from them. Perhaps you have sensed all along that these friends are being neglectful? Maybe that's why you want to be away from them after being with them? You feel violated but don't acknowledge it.
Your friend Anna is like my ex-Nfriend V., a no show when it wasn't on her terms or whenever she just felt like it. She wouldn't call or show up. She'd just shine me on. She would also be invasive and cross my boundaries. Of course I had to see the truth before deciding to jettison this very sick, neglectful and abusive relationship. It was hard because she was the last one I had held onto. Probably because she is N and very familiar.[/i]
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Hi H&H,
I am very understanding, and if I had a friend who couldn't make it for this reason or that reason it is not a problem with me. I just like to know. What bothers me is that they don't respond sometimes and they seem to think it's ok. I asked my friend if she'd like to meet me on Saturday and Saturday (yesterday) came and went and she didn't respond. I don't want to approach her about it as I don't want her to think I am being anal.... I am not sure if I am right in feeling this way or if this is all in my head... maybe I am over reacting.
YOU ARE NOT OVERREACTING!
YOU ARE NOT BEING ANAL RETENTIVE!
Classic anal retentive is someone who has Obsessive Compulsive Personality Disorder. They are into perfectionism to the max. I know my Nmother has that. You don't strike me as being that way.
What you are asking for not perfection rather common courtesy and caring. That is healthy.
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This is a different friend I am talking about this time, it is a similar post to the last one I guess, apologies for that! :?
I am not sure if I am making a mountain out of a mole hill here though as I know my Friend wouldn't do it intentionally to hurt me.
I know this has a lot to do with my spending time alone, that's for sure. I have made the connection now. I intend to go back in to hermit mode as I have been hurt by this. I don't want to be around friends any more as they just keep hurting me and the whole thing confuses me... I don't know if I am being too sensitive or if they really are hurting me. They don't do it on purpose so does it count, it's not a huge crime etc...
I am watching Notting Hill as I write this. I like Hugh Grants living situation with his flatmate. I have been living in rented accomodation for 12 years now, and have always lived with strangers. How nice it would be to have a connection with someone I live with.
I think I am lonely...
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For what it's worth, I think you should think about Anna some more. Does she usually behave this way or was this something unusual? Maybe when you said, "If you're free, I'd like to hang out with you", she interpreted that to mean to call you only if she could get together with you on Saturday. If you said, "Please let me know if you're free on Saturday", then that would be different, and she definitely would have been disrespectful of you to not call. Even in the first case, I think it would have been best for her to get back with you, but if she was super busy, or got distracted, then I don't think it's something that should end the friendship. However, I suspect this may be a pattern with her and that's why it bothered you so much. If that's so, and you want to save the friendship, you'll probably need to let her know that it is hurtful.
Gail
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I felt as though I never had a problem with my friendships
Now this was something I never took notice of before, but all of a sudden, since my counsellor opened this can of worms, I am really sensitive to small things like this.
I was happy and this kind of thing never bothered me before, why now? I don't want to make problems when there are none.
Selkie: I would also be upset, but not about the friend not getting back to me. I would be upset because things like this never bothered me, and now, all of a sudden, I'm questioning my competence socially, and doubting my take on the world of friendships.
I'd be upset with my therapist for encouraging me to find negativity where there wasn't any for me before. Personally, I'd like to grill her about this one!!! (as you can see, this pushes a button of mine!!!)
Friends not getting back to us....it happens in our busy lives all the time. You acknowledge this as well.
Didn't sound like you and Anna had definitive plans anyway (times, etc) so why get upset? How is getting upset productive for you? I doubt YOU would make a mountain out of a molehill, but I bet your therapist would!
If you are mad at Anna, you could talk to her about it, but if you don't really care that much....and you already have let it go, emotionally, WHO THE HELL tells her client to question that?
Either there is more about friendships that you originally want to explore, and the counselor is taking your lead (which is how it should go) or she is NUTS. Unless you led your therapist to believe that you had some big issues with friends, I would be asking her why she would tell a patient to look at something she feels good about and dig for cracks and negativity in it.........and then feel bad about it....jeeeeez!
I would seriously reconsider paying money to any therapist who encouraged me to question the good things in my life and doubt my own good sense (unless my "good sense" was I V drug use or something!!!). Is she afraid your happiness will put her out of a job??? Therapists are people, too. What's she bringing to all of this???
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Hi Selkie,
Maybe your T meant something different than the type of thing your friend did. Have you been talking to her about your friendships, about feeling lonely, about avoiding contact? I would not immediately think that meant that the thing your friend did was the type of issue your T was referring to, (if there was any type of issue or behavior at all that she was referring to,) unless that really feels right to you.
There is something there. Don't let others do thinking for you on this point. This is where you need to do your own thinking. Decide for yourself what makes you feel good, or bad. Not your T, not us, no one should be deciding that for you. Only if it feels that way to YOU, should you take any action.
For me, what she did would not be a big deal. Nothing was deifinite or planned. For others, it would vbe very hurtful. So it just depends.
But there is something there. I don't know what it is, but it triggered some bad feelings in you. Maybe you can trace it back to its root.
Plucky
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Selkie, I DONT think you are overreacting. In fact this is something you've mentioned before in your other threads too, about friends standing you up at last minute etc. It is a BIG deal, its about how others treat you. Hang in there and you'll find answers. Hugs, Marta
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Hiya Selkie hon
You say in your first post that your counsellor only hinted at this.... maybe she was just encouraging you to think about it and think what is healthy.
I feel you are strong enough hon not to go into hermit mode and back away, to be alone. One thing I thought of is that are there any helpful groups in your area, to maybe join a group with people who have gone through a smiliar type of thing, or is there something that you really enjoy doing and join a class for one night a week, just for a couple of hours a week?
I have an N-ish friend who I used to houseshare with about 5 years ago now. Since looking into this I can see now that he's not a brilliant friend, however his heart is in the right place and he does do nice things.... but also brings the conversation round to himself most of the time, is clumsby (when he came to help us move house, he was putting our dining table together and screwed through the top of it), that kind of thing. However like I said, he is a nice guy.... it's just him. I also know that I don't put the effort into that friendship that I do the others, so it doesn't affect my boundaries if you know what I mean and I don't feel angry.
So maybe, as well, put the effort into the friendships that you feel are worth it, the effort into the friends who you feel comfortable with, who you enjoy their company. It's not necessarily the quantity of friends, but the quality of the friends you do have.
I feel you're doing well hon.... keep talking and posting.
H&H xx
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Hi All,
Thank you for your support and replies.
I am so horribly confused about all of this.
I went to my counsellor because I was having problems with my relationships...
As some of you remember, I was in a very abusive relationship which caused me a great deal of pain and led me to this board and then as I got talking to you all and discovering the reasons behind this, I thought it would be good to go to see a counsellor. I ditched my abusive boyfriend and got rid of an Nmale-friend out of my life because of the support I was receiving here and at my counselling sessions. I can safely say there are NO N's in my immediate Life.
I have never ever ever had problems with my female friends. I have felt they were a Godsend as they have always been there for me. I know if I went to them and explained how I was feeling about this, they would totally accomodate me and give me loads of love and understanding. I was thinking to myself last night that I wouldn't approach them about it because:
1. My view is a bit distorted, don't want to approach them unless I am 100% sure about what exactly is going on, and Gail, I think you may be right when you say that it wasn't a concrete plan. I think what's happening may be perfectly normal. This friend is reliable.
2. I don't want to have my needs met, surely if I wanted my needs met, then all I would have to do is approach my friends about my sensitivies and they would accomodate them. So there is something there perhaps...
3. I may be imagining this and expecting it to happen just because my counsellor hinted at it.
I am not sure what I think anymore as i thought my childhood was a happy one until I realised that it wasn't...
It's hard to believe in things anymore as I am finding out that those situations I thought were normal weren't, who is to say my friendships aren't going to be tarred with the same brush?
It's a scary time.
Plucky, You are telling me to think for myself, and I know ultimately, this is what I should be doing, but I can't trust my judgement at the moment, it's let me down before in many many ways so I don't want to trust my self at the moment, it's too much of a risk. I feel like I need someone to tell me what's healthy or what's not! ...or maybe someone to help me see it for myself. I don't know what's what anymore!! ...and yes, there is something in all of this, I don't know what, but there's something very uncomfortable lurking in the shadows! I can feel it.
As for my counsellor, I think as I was trying to figure out things I may have said things that provoked her to think I was keeping my friends at a distance. I kind of remember what I said and I don't think what I said was right now that I think back on it. I will bring this up at my next session and get it all sorted out.
Mum: I am aware of how counsellor's can be controlling and opinionated, and how sometimes they can abuse their power. I am aware of this because of the horror stories i have read on this board and because of this, I have my radars out BIGTIME. In all fairness, I did say something, which led to my counsellor saying "Do you think you keep your friends at a distance to avoid this?" or whatever. If there is something that bothers me about her, is that she will drop a bombshell (or maybe I react to it as if it was) and not follow it up with anything. I leave her office with no closure on the subject, having no idea how to handle it etc... I don't think she realises that I react in such a way though. She may say something like that in passing, and most people wouldn't bat an eyelid, but I am blown open by it, exposed and feeling extremely vulnerable. This simple comment has affected me greatly. I didn't tell her I am isolating myself. I didn't tell her about my new found anxieties surrounding my friendships. I will definately address these at my next appointment
H&H Thank you for your support,
I have joined a local club, which I will attend for the first time in a couple of weeks. I do get out of the house a lot as I work 45+ hours a week. I don't want to lose my friendships, I feel like I am going to ruin them with my antics! I do have some sort of problem with intimacy though, as I do keep myself at bay. I know there is nothing wrong with being introverted. I am an EXTREME extrovert at times but then I go through introverted periods. I enjoy both times but I crave closeness.
Marta I know I have mentioned it in previous posts, but part of me feels like I want it to happen. That one friend did let me down. What I failed to mention is that her phone broke during her flakiness, and she is a bit of a party animal sometimes too, everything happened at once, she apologised to me and has made attempts to meet up with me since. Sometimes I wonder if I want to be let down... Am I wanting to be the victim so I don't have to commit? Oh Jesus, it's all too confusing...
I'm going to leave the dust settle on this one before I try to see it for what it is...
I hope I haven't baffled anyone into boredom...
I am so complex :(
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Hi Selkie,
Just wanted to share with you something from my own experience which is similar to what you are going through. A few years ago while in therapy, I was talking with my therapist about my friends (I had friends back then). After several sessions, it became clear to me that one thing that my friends had in common was that they all had problems and liked to confide in me. In fact, I could rarely ever get a word in edgewise when with them. None of them knew ME and I knew from their comments that if they did stop for one minute to know who I was, it would not sit comfortably with them. I listened, and listened and listened. Till one day my therapist asked me, why do you keep them as friends? I couldn't really answer that. The only benefit I could see from it was having someone to hang out with now and then. So as a test, one day I was on the phone with a friend that I had for about 7 years. I turned the tables on her and started talking about myself. I started talking about how I was feeling and what I was doing. Well let me just say that the relationship ended shortly thereafter. In fact, I dumped all my friends like that shortly thereafter, and to be honest, I don't miss them. They were draining me. I am ready and eager to now start making new relationships with women but not at the expense of censoring myself any more. I'm striving for "healthy" now.
Of course, this has meant many lonely nights, but I have you guys to keep me company now and frankly, I've gotten more out of hearing your stories and feedback than I ever got from any of those women.
When you say you are so complex Selkie, I know exactly what you mean. At times I think myself into utter confusion. But then when I read posts like yours, I realize that I am not alone. Please don't get me wrong, I am not saying that my situation is your situation too and that you should dump your friends, but reexamining these relationships could be a good thing. That could be what the therapist was trying to say.
Are the relationships reciprocal?
Do they know you and your complexity and accept it?
Do you truly enjoy being with them?
One thing I don't lack is an ABUNDANCE of acquaintances. That is how I categorize all those people who don't meet the aforementioned criteria. Unfortunately I don't have anyone in the friend category at the moment, but I'm working through that trying to find out (like you) what are the dynamics involved. Am I pushing people away uneccessarily? After much discussion on another thread that I started (coincidentally) on a similar topic, I am finding answers.
It seems to me you are definitely on the right course. You are questioning everything, even your therapist. Best of luck Selkie. If we were neighbors, I'm sure we'd be friends.
CeeMee
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I have never ever ever had problems with my female friends. I have felt they were a Godsend as they have always been there for me. I know if I went to them and explained how I was feeling about this, they would totally accommodate me and give me loads of love and understanding. I was thinking to myself last night that I wouldn't approach them about it because:
1. My view is a bit distorted, don't want to approach them unless I am 100% sure about what exactly is going on, and Gail, I think you may be right when you say that it wasn't a concrete plan. I think what's happening may be perfectly normal. This friend is reliable.
2. I don't want to have my needs met, surely if I wanted my needs met, then all I would have to do is approach my friends about my sensitivies and they would accommodate them. So there is something there perhaps...
3. I may be imagining this and expecting it to happen just because my counsellor hinted at it.
Selkie, it sounds like you are ambivalent about this. On the one hand you say you would get the loving support you need if you talked about this with your friends, but say that you won't talk with them and doubt and blame yourself for your strong feelings about this issue. (Boy, is this familiar to me. :() Can you acknowledge and love all your feelings, on both sides of the issue? No matter how little sense it may make to you right now? Tough stuff, for sure.
If there is something that bothers me about her, is that she will drop a bombshell (or maybe I react to it as if it was) and not follow it up with anything. I leave her office with no closure on the subject, having no idea how to handle it etc... I don't think she realises that I react in such a way though. She may say something like that in passing, and most people wouldn't bat an eyelid, but I am blown open by it, exposed and feeling extremely vulnerable. This simple comment has affected me greatly. I didn't tell her I am isolating myself. I didn't tell her about my new found anxieties surrounding my friendships. I will definitely address these at my next appointment
I think it would be a very good idea to tell your counsellor about the things she says that have such a strong impact on you. She may just not realize how strongly what she says affects you. She may not know you well enough yet and you would be doing her a favor by telling her this about yourself.
H&H Thank you for your support,
I have joined a local club, which I will attend for the first time in a couple of weeks. I do get out of the house a lot as I work 45+ hours a week. I don't want to lose my friendships, I feel like I am going to ruin them with my antics! I do have some sort of problem with intimacy though, as I do keep myself at bay. I know there is nothing wrong with being introverted. I am an EXTREME extrovert at times but then I go through introverted periods. I enjoy both times but I crave closeness.
Selkie, I am an Introvert through and through and know that I still *need* people. I get out a fair amount, but I am struggling with how to have a relationship go from acquaintance to friend to intimate confidant. For me, the intimacy is being held back by my own ambivalence between fear of abandonment and fear of injury. If I figure this conflict out, I'll be sure to let you know. :)
I am so complex :(
Yes, you are! :D
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Hi Selkie,
Even though we on the board are willing to support you and in your corner, no one can really tell how things are for you. Only you can. If you are not used to trusting yourself, you have to start somewhere.
Somewhere in you the truth is there. The key to what is bothering you. I could respond a million different ways and not touch on your truth. Only mine, and where yours and mine intersect.
It sounds like you think you can trust your friends but don't want to put it to the acid test. How about just come clean with one of them, the mild version. Say that this happened and you're not sure if it should bother you. Is that possible?
Anyway, just take it slow and listen to your inner voice. I think it is telling you something. There is no rush about this, right? If you need to dump a friend, you can do that next year also, no?
Plucky
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Hi Selkie,
I just read my post and I think it sounds a bit cut and dried. I don't mean it that way. I meant to be warmer and friendlier.
One more thing. Maybe putting more demands on your friends is a way to get rid of them. This is just a suggestion. There is something bothering you about the relationships. That is real. We just don't know what it is. You also think you have problems with getting close to anyone. So it is safe to imagine that some of your effort might go toward preventing this, in some form, but not consciously.
I don't know the answers. When you get them, could you let me know? Because I have the same issues.
Plucky
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Selkie,
In therapy tehr eis no closure always, especially not after each and every session. You have to mull over things, think about them, learn to sift wheat from chaffe. Yes, you should definitely discuss with your T what is bothering you, that is part of the process and part of what intimacy is all about.
to me and has made attempts to meet up with me since. Sometimes I wonder if I want to be let down... Am I wanting to be the victim so I don't have to commit?
Somehow you have taken on all the blame of this intimacy thang on yourself. I don't think it is fair. It seems to me that you also need to go a bit eacsy on yourself girl. I was like this too, always thinking that everything that went wrong in the universe with me was my own fault. When I found true love, I could blossom. All I know is that it takes two to tango, and if you feel hurt by your friends, then it is just a sign that something is up with that friendship. Also this party thing could just be a trigger, there may be other issues with teh friendship.
Take care of yourself and be nice to yourself.
Hugs, Marta
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aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaagh!
I am so annoyed every time I hear of a therapist who demands anything of their client- hell, they should be helping you find things out for yourself.
As for breaking your life apart totally....take it one stage at a time.
That can of worms can be difficult, for most friendships despite our conditionning are CONDITIONAL....but I really believe if you understand where people are coming from and are open to their experiences....you can form a sort-of bond.
Something to build upon?
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H&H Thank you for your support,
I have joined a local club, which I will attend for the first time in a couple of weeks. I do get out of the house a lot as I work 45+ hours a week. I don't want to lose my friendships, I feel like I am going to ruin them with my antics! I do have some sort of problem with intimacy though, as I do keep myself at bay. I know there is nothing wrong with being introverted. I am an EXTREME extrovert at times but then I go through introverted periods. I enjoy both times but I crave closeness.
Selkie, I am an Introvert through and through and know that I still *need* people. I get out a fair amount, but I am struggling with how to have a relationship go from acquaintance to friend to intimate confidant. For me, the intimacy is being held back by my own ambivalence between fear of abandonment and fear of injury. If I figure this conflict out, I'll be sure to let you know. :)
I am so complex :(
Yes, you are! :D
I am learning that when I trust and know myself then there is no ambivalence in relationships. Then I will know what I need to do to take care of myself. I will know how much to share. I know what I want.
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I am learning that when I trust and know myself then there is no ambivalence in relationships. Then I will know what I need to do to take care of myself. I will know how much to share. I know what I want.
that is interesting SF, but I feel as I get older that there are no unconditional relationships, and being a sensitive soul I can often guess what people are thinking! Don't smile, I don't mean that I am always second-guessing everyone, I mean I can tell when a friend is prevaricating or not being reciprocal, that sort of thing.
I tend to take the relationship as a whole though- if it's good & positive it's ok, if it turns out that I feel disregarded or disrespected too often it has to go....though I have a few very old friends and family members who would fall into this category and I still keep in touch with them at a distance.
In some ways I feel I am more fearful of relationships than I used to be, but that's because I tend to get so involved before I realise it's not good for me.
Believe me Selkie- your real friends love you for who you are. I have bipolar disorder and my truest friends have stuck by me through many 'antics'!
Have you ever done a Myers-Briggs personality test? I came out INFJ which explained exactly that introvert yet suddenly needing to extrovert split...
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Hi Selkie,
Fairly recentlly in my life I started looking at friendships with a little less expectation.
Now I sort of add them up and ask myself, are more than 2/3 of my interactions with this person basically positive and ...over tiiiiiime....do I have a general sense of their basic good intentions and that they are not toxic or cruel? Then they're KEEPERS.
(I need them more than I need them to meet all my needs. If that makes any sense.)
Hugs,
Hopalong
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Hi Gang-
Thanks for your comments and replies. There is so much on here that I want to respond to.
I approached my counsellor about on this topic, and I have come to the conclusion that my friendships are just fine. I don't see my friends as often as I would like to (apart from the times I am in hermit mode) , but that is because we lead busy lives (we work two jobs) and it's difficult to arrange a time to suit us-this is very real and not used as an excuse. When we do see each other, it's fantastic and I come away feeling refreshed.
My friends are good people. I know I can rely on them. I am trying to make myself into someone I am not when I try to change things with them. I was happy the way it is and I still am. I would be open to being closer friends with some of them, in the sense of calling them more often and being more part of their lives rather than catching up every time we meet. If that opportunity arose, I would meet it... I think. But right now, our/my life just doesn't seem to provide enough time or money to allow the kind of freedom to have that. This is where i am at.
Marta, you touched on something that we should all pay attention to on this board, and that is this:
Marta: "It seems to me that you also need to go a bit eacsy on yourself girl. I was like this too, always thinking that everything that went wrong in the universe with me was my own fault. "
Because we are all so willing to better ourselves and our experiences, we sometimes forget that we are better than our experiences. So many people glide through life without insight and self awareness... and there we are stressing about ourselves AND them. It seems we take the burden --which belongs to both parties of the relationship-- on our shoulders.
Well, I think we need to take it a little easier on ourselves. 8) We are a cool bunch of caring people.
There are so many posts I wanna respond to in a bit more detail but I have got to go to work, maybe I will at a later date...
Warm thoughts to all
xx
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Because we are all so willing to better ourselves and our experiences, we sometimes forget that we are better than our experiences. So many people glide through life without insight and self awareness... and there we are stressing about ourselves AND them. It seems we take the burden --which belongs to both parties of the relationship-- on our shoulders
Wow, Selkie....that's one amazing thought there...........THANK YOU
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Does it help if you try to distinguish between friends and acquaintances?
A friend is someone who thinks about you even when you are not around and even when they do not want anything from you.
A friend will contact you because they haven't heard from you in a while, and for no other reason, because they care.
A friend can give, as well as take, and a friend knows how to leave you enough room, psychologically speaking, to be able to ask them for space or support.
Friends also accept responsibility. They aren't perfect, they're human like everyone else, but when they mess up, and you point it out to them, their first reaction is not defensive blaming of you. They get quiet and think seriously about what you have said, and they think seriously about whether or not you might be right. And they don't respond to you until they have thought honestly about these things.
An acquaintance can seem to be a friend, but you will know by the way they respond in certain situations if they are or not. Someone who expects you to give and give but never gives back, someone who always has a good reason why they have hurt you or neglected you, someone who responds to even the gentlest confrontation with hyper-righteousness and fury, this person is not a friend, and never can be.
It may not be their fault that they lack the capacity, but it is a fact nonetheless.
This is not easy to face. It is painful. Most of us have very few friends, even if we have a tremendous number of acquaintances. Most of us don't have the resources to be real friends to more than one or two people. It's not anyone's fault, it's just a fact of life. But it is a fact. Real friendship requires both honesty and time, and it's no wonder that it is rare, when you realize that.
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H&H said:
"Selkie hon
I can understand why you felt hurt with your friends... it depends what their lives are like, how much notice you gave them, do they work shifts etc etc etc. I don't have lots of friends, however I do have a few close friends. Trying to fit in when to see them is difficult... my husband works shifts, one of my friends works shifts, and another one has an evening job as well as working full time. I generally give them a ring in advance (mostly 2/3 weeks ahead) and try and organise a mutually convenient time for both of us. One of my friends works in various parts of the UK, and can be so busy she doesn't have time to return my calls, however I understand what her job is like so I accommodate accordingly.
By lowering your expectations, you can give people a licence to meet your needs if that makes any sense. Personally I think your friends could have texted you back before the arranged meet up time, depending on how much notice they had, but as I don't know them, or what their lives are like this is difficult for me to speculate. I have also had times where my friends has either not got messages, or thought they'd texted me when they hadn't... that kind of thing, however they have always apologised and are sorry they let me down.
Friends, as with any kind of relationship, takes effort and the more responsibility and busier our lives become, the more effort it takes. There is also the possibility with your friends, that if you decided to contact them, and it was out of the norm for you (and I am only speculating here), then they might not feel they need to make the effort with you. It depends as if they texted you afterwards did you say.... I thought you might have let me know beforehand, and I was hurt that you didn't. No one wants to hurt their friends.
Maybe some thoughts to ponder on...."
You see this is where the confusion is, I never had a problem with my friends before my counsellor suggested that I may be avoiding intimacy in my friendships. grrrrrrr! She's really planted a seed in my head that has niggled ever since...
I then set about really trying to prove her wrong.
As a result, I felt as though I was pushing my friendships a bit too much, having high expectations and then getting angry/pissed off/disappointed/hurt when my expectations were not met.
I raised my expectations, because that's what I did essentially. I set out to be intimate! Talk about setting myself up! Why did my counsellor do this to me?
My friends, my lifestyle and London really gets in the way of this. You have to plan things, it takes an hour to cross the city! -you have to have money, you have to have time off work, and all of this has to coincide with another person! It's hard. We are all so busy-I am too. I work two jobs trying to make ends meet and pay off my student debt.
So H&H what you are saying is right. I really agree with you, and this is how I have always perceived it. My friends are fine but they can't give me any more at the moment because life gets in the way, and to be quite honest, I kinda can't give anymore either, but I am on this trip to try to prove my counsellor wrong. I am needlessly stressing over this.
I think I need a counsellor just to get over my last counsellor! I know my counsellor didn't mean to, but she really touched a nerve.
Also, H&H, you said that maybe my friends didn't get my texts etc and maybe they had an excuse etc, -you hit the nail on the head! They have totally been aware of being flaky and have apologised and stuff, my friends phone broke and other stuff happened but for some reason I am overlooking this and playing victim. I just cannot shake it off. It's horrible. I am creating this and I just can't shake it off. It's like I am trying to turn myself off my friends. What the F**?
A horribly confused,
Selkie
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I think I need a counsellor just to get over my last counsellor! I know my counsellor didn't mean to, but she really touched a nerve.
A horribly confused,
Selkie
Hi Selkie,
I needed a counselor to get over a dysfunctional counselor who wanted me for herself. She caused me to question things I shouldn't have been questioning.
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Selkie sweetie...
I can see why you are confused.... and I think it lies with the word "Maybe"
Your counsellor suggested that you MAY be avoiding intimacy in your friendships. May, Might... not necessarily.
I feel that you don't necessarily have to see your friends more often to gain intimacy if you feel it is lacking. Not what anyone else thinks, but what you think and what you feel. I haven't read through all this post again so I apologise if I'm repeating anything that someone else has said.
You sound to me like a typical London lassie hon... busy working, paying off student loan, and trying to see your friends at the same time. Showing intimacy can be just the same in grabbing a quick coffee and chat with a friend, as spending the day together shopping and going out for a meal afterwards... it doesn't matter the amount of time you spend with your friend, it's the quality of the time. Do any of your friends know you see your counsellor?
((((((((((((((Selkie))))))))))))))))))
H&H xx
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I have found this article quite interesting:-
http://www.mudrashram.com/dysfunctionalfamily2.html
It's very long, but about 1/2 - 3/4's of the page down is an exercise to do about who you class as close friends and who you class as acquaintances etc, which I felt may be helpful to you. xx
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Hi Selkie,
I am a no call back offender, at least once a week mainly because I am in contact with so many people everyday. People call me for professional reasons (work related calls, employees, customers, etc.), personal reasons (family issues), and friendship reasons (inquiries to hang out, or just talk). The funny thing is that all of these people in these three categories could be calling in almost any category depending on circumstance, and people. My brother might want to hang out, or my employee is having personal issues and needs time and sometimes opinion, or all of the above. There is no way on Gods green earth that I can field all of the calls in the proper context except on lighter days. I am not trying to hi-jack here, just simply letting you know that with all of the calls that I cannot possibly return, I get back to them in my own time so that I can respond with my whole self and not an unprepared, or hasty approach.
Some of my past friendships are on the back burner because of this. One great friendship in particular is a co softball coach friend. I haven't called him in months, nor has he called me, but I know that I can call and re kindle anytime, and I will. If for some reason he is distant when I do, well then its not time, and there may never be a right time......he could be done with our relationship. I am confident that in all of the relationships that you come across the original likes about the person still exist in your heart and mind, with that, things can be put on the back burner if not for a couple of days even for a couple of months. I am not saying that this is generally how it should be for everyone, or anyone, however I just wanted you to know that it is completely possible for things to not always be connected. From you later postings here you have indicated that your okay with it not always being connected....now.
There are people that put me into a tailspin by not getting back to me, but it is almost always business related and money is hanging in the breeze. Sometimes two parties emerge from the dust of a couple of months of no communication and its like a western showdown to see what the issue(s) was, both are staring at each other waiting for the other to make the first move, or in this case comment. Normally two would only ever approach each other even if there are hard feelings is if deep down there is a need for resolution.
Perhaps your anxiety comes from a need, just like mine does in the business relationships. Maybe an examination of your needs might help you to understand what is reasonable, healthy, and or a waste of time. Example: What are your needs from a friend that you want to hang out with? If your needs are some recreation, or social interaction, or maybe you really need someone to talk to, these can all have priorities attached to them. If you need someone to talk to, well then you need someone to talk to. If you need some fun time with a friend, it is my opinion that this could be put off for a better day as no matter what your going to have a good time.
I am a little apprehensive about this post as my views are kind of extreme. However there are some great relationships out there that don't need a ton of attention, and or worry, usually these are the best ones. I am forced to make these sorts decisions daily, and have found a way to have a little bit of sanity in between all of the different relationships. If your not forced then I can see how with too much wiggle room in the thought pattern it can be somewhat anxiety filled. Just thought it would be helpful for you to perhaps see an extreme from this angle.
Wally :)
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Hi Wally,
I couldn't agree more with everything you said.
But then we're guys and the others in this thread are well........not guys.
I wonder how much difference that makes in this context? :?
mudpup
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well.......................................................ya
lol..........................true, true.
Thanks Mudpuppy
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Hi Selkie,
I did not feeled hijacked at all on the other thread don't feel guilty.
Here are some thoughts about your reply:
Selkie wrote:
CeeMee, this sums up my friendships. I need time away to recover every so often. Sometimes I feel like it's the end of the friendship. I always come around though and we meet up again. You say you have learned to lower your expectations, in what way? Surely by lowering your expectations you are giving people a license not to meet your needs? How do you have close friends if your expectations of them are low?
What do I mean by "lowering expections?" The example H&H gave is one way of lowering expectations. Another example would be to allow that the standards I have, may not be in complete alignment with my friend's. For example, by my standards, I may think that considerate means... letting me know at least a day before that you aren't going to show for our appointment. She may think that considerate means... leaving a message on my home voicemail the day of. There could be a number of different factors contributing to our different understandings of considerate (culture, education, upbringin etc.). If I don't allow for difference, I am bound to feel disrespected. Another example might be that I am of the mind that a true friend should always remember my birthday and holidays with a phone call. My friend might think that true friends just get in touch when the time is right and circumstances allow and things should be honky dory between the two of us when that time comes. If on my birthday, I sit by the phone waiting for a call, guess what, I'm in for a real big disappointment. When my friend does call two weeks after my birthday, I have the choice of being perturbed or accepting that she has plenty of things on her mind, she has plenty of family birthdays to remember and remembering mine might be much to ask. These are just examples but the idea is that we cannot always assume that the standards we set for "friendship" are shared by everyone else.
I do believe that as we share more with each other and become closer friends, the more likely we are to try to meet each others expectations.
What Solitaire wrote some time back on this same thread and what others have also said is very true. True friends are few and not very easily found. As for myself, I don't have any really close friends right now. I am taking a breather from my oldest and dearest friend of 28 years. She's the one I spoke of on another post who has gone bonkers over her new found religion. I did everything I could to help her and to no avail. She hasn't been able to do much for herself. Finally, I gave up and pulled back. We are at a breather in our relationship right now. I hope that we will be close again some day, but for now, this is best for us both. Just about everyone else that I know is just an acquaintance. Some used to be called friends till I realized otherwise. I keep very low expectations in relation to them. That's what keeps us friendly and able to have lunch or coffee.
Selkie, maybe you might consider letting things chill for a while and seeing what happens. Friendships must be reciprocal. If I wind up doing all the work like calling and such, that's not reciprocal. Sometimes I have to chill and see what "will" there is on the other person's part. My days of chasing people down the street to be my friend are over. Granted, If I meet someone and we have a good conversation, I still get excited at the prosepct that this could develop. That is usually enough to send them running down the street. What can I say, they didn't give me the handbook on friendship when I came into this world. Come to think about it, not only didn't I get any manuals on any of the social stuff, I didn't get any training either. We were a large group of 6 children and mom thought our best and only friends should be each other. Now, we all barely speak to each other.
Selkie, I hope some of this is helpful to you.
CeeMee
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Wow!
Thank you H&H, Wally, Mud & CeeMee,
H&H: Yes my friends know I was in counselling.
To you all:
What you have wrote is what I really needed to hear and makes a whole lot of sense. I have been comtemplating the idea of expectations and that's the key. I do have awesome friends and like I said, I never ever batted an eyelid about them, never stressed about them until my counsellor suggested that I may be avoiding intimacy. Like you said CeeMee, I guess it's down to me not having any close friends at the moment, and that's the truth of it. I am pushing too hard with what I have and life doesn't work that way.
I have realised however that I do have a need! ... and that's something I was unaware of before! I would love to have a close friend! I have a lot of really good friends all around the city, but no one I can call when ever I want and for them to do the same. I have had friends like this in the past and it's really nice, I didn't have a career then though mind you.
This is all very important stuff for me to hear, I guess I need to relax and let things revert back to the way they are naturally.
Thank you all again for your help in helping me figure this one out, it's been kinda messy as I have pushed and prodded my friendships needlessly, but I know my friends won't mind. I just feel a little... what's the word... embarrassed?! :? Just looking forward to the dust settling.
Oh, and Wally? I think Men are definately different when it comes to dynamics in friendships! I think women stress over it more and they seem to pay attention to detail where men don't as much