Voicelessness and Emotional Survival Message Board
Voicelessness and Emotional Survival => Voicelessness and Emotional Survival Message Board => Topic started by: Portia on March 15, 2006, 08:16:43 AM
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I’m sure many are familiar with this, what I’d like to ask is: over the years, have the meanings changed for you, have the agreements become clearer, or meant more to you? They have for me and continue to mean new things, new ways of looking at things.
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Everything we do is based on agreements we have made - agreements with ourselves, with others, with God, with life.
But the most important agreements are the ones we make with ourselves. In these agreements we tell ourselves who we are, how to behave, what is possible, what is impossible. One single agreement is not a problem, but we have many agreements that come from fear, deplete our energy, and diminish our self-worth.
The Four Agreements offer a powerful code of conduct that can rapidly transform our lives to a new freedom, true happiness, and love.
1. BE IMPECCABLE WITH YOUR WORD
Speak with integrity. Say only what you mean. Avoid using the word to speak against yourself or to gossip about others. Use the power of your word in the direction of truth and love.
2. DON'T TAKE ANYTHING PERSONALLY
Nothing others do is because of you. What others say and do is a projection of their own reality, their own dream. When you are immune to the opinions and actions of others, you won't be the victim of needless suffering.
3. DON'T MAKE ASSUMPTIONS
Find the courage to ask questions and to express what you really want. Communicate with others as clearly as you can to avoid misunderstandings, sadness and drama. With just this one agreement, you can completely transform your life.
4. ALWAYS DO YOUR BEST
Your best is going to change from moment to moment; it will be different when you are healthy as opposed to sick. Under any circumstance, simply do your best and you will avoid self-judgment, self-abuse and regret.
Miguel Ruiz - The Four Agreements
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Hi Portia,
I never read these before. The only one I think I do naturally is the fourth one. Have the most trouble with the second one. Just this morning, in three hours at work, I must have taken at least three things personally and it really turned my mood black. If I could get good at that particular agreement, what a difference it would make in my life. What a difference it would have made all these years.
I think taking things personally has been my biggest problem all this time. :shock:
Pennyplant
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Hi Pennyplant
I have problems with 2. I try to see what the person is saying or doing from their point of view, I try and stop and observe my own reactions….but it’s so difficult. We make up our worlds from what we know and it gives us such a narrow view sometimes – like prejudices and the shock of the new. Like seeing someone who is facially disfigured – I try and stop my ‘shock’ reaction but if it’s something I’ve never encountered before, my system goes into flight/fight “alert! Someone different on the horizon!”. We can’t stop our emotional reactions I think (without lots of practice maybe?) but at least we can reflect on them and observe them once they’re passed.
I received an email the other day that really bothered me: I took it personally and became angry and hurt. Then I read it again a day later, having got through the anger and hurt….and read it from their point of view, as an expression of how they see the world. Their view of the world is really warped, in my opinion! But I saw I got angry and hurt because how they see me isn’t what I'm like. However….that’s how they see me. It isn’t how I see me, so that’s okay. :D But it takes so long to work this sort of thing through!
Number 3 is a huge one for me!! This is why I ask lots of questions (which can really annoy people). Sometimes I have to overcome a lot of fear to ask a question. I think the person might be angry with me, or I might be ‘doing something wrong’. I hear a parental voice saying: “Don’t ask me to explain! You know what I mean! You’re just being awkward!”. Hmmm. Very helpful. Truth is, that’s a reply people give when they maybe don’t know the answer and are themselves afraid of being ‘stupid’, or perhaps caught out lying? But I make assumptions all the time. I have to keep checking with assumptions about what other people think and mean though, because I often get that wrong, in many ways. It can make for laborious communication (what do you mean by “mean”? :shock: :D Monty Python sketch I think) but then when it works, it’s worth it.
Tell me more about number 2 if you want to!
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I have often thought that the four agreements, although sound and wise, miss a basic concept, or at least make an assumption: and that is that everyone has a belief system that is healthy. I completely agree with what Ruiz says, and agree that this will change your life....but to change your life, one has to be aware of what core beliefs underlie the agreements we have already made that drive our current behavoirs....
for instance, I would have to know WHY number 2 is difficult for me....the core belief may be that I don't believe in my own opinion, or I have given up seniority over my own life to others....ie: how they feel or their opinion is more valid than my own! and underneath that would be a basic feeling of unworthiness, or unloveability...
I definately had to find this out before I made any strides to change number 2.
YET, maybe just tossing this about IS the way to look underneath, and see what our current reality says about our core beliefs.
The other thing, that Ruiz discusses in other books, and maybe this as well, (I have yet to really READ it's intirety) is that EVERYTHING is ALREADY and agreement...and to push this further, I believe that as souls, we agree to go through ALL OF THIS on our path to God.
There is an acceptance that comes with this belief....that there is learning we need to do as the germ of every experience. So in this way, every experience is not wasted, no matter how hard or painful....and that even pain has purpose for us.
I do believe that difficulties are agreed upon, and what we see as difficult is there FOR US, given to us with unconditional love by God (the universe, name it what you wish) to learn how to grow as a soul.
Some of Ruiz's stuff is mind boggling....how nothing we think is "real" is reality, and that reality is subjective, and that we each have a dream we are "living" and that the collective dream drives what happens to us in the world, collectively......ouch, my head hurts...
but I think the guy knows a thing or two...
He has a great book on FEAR...very heady, too.
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"go to the top thread, do it now!" haha I'm in dictatorial mode :shock: :P tsk. :roll:
Seriously, I keep learning so much from 2 and 3: the more i think hard about them, the more they make sense.
When i first saw these agreements, ooooo.....two and a half years ago? - number 2 had me completely befuddled. I found it very hard to understand. I'm finding it easier to understand but tricky to put into practice. Now I have to empty that darn washing machine and make some phone calls. I have to pretend or assume that reality is as i see it and that i can act upon it, even though I know my eyes and brain see it upside down and my brain puts it the right way up; my brain plays that clever trick.
Our brains play all sorts of tricks: they're designed to find a way to survive and the methods for coping with what life throws at us vary enormously. i think. (At least I think I think and that's one assumption I ain't about to give up :D)
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Mum, this is just my sort of thing:
how nothing we think is "real" is reality, and that reality is subjective,
Yep, reality is what we interpret it to be. If the majority of ‘the universe’ (whatever that is) is made up of ‘dark matter’ – and we don’t know what that dark matter is, actually - we know zip. And that universe we talk about – do you imagine it to be ‘out there’ beyond the Earth? I do sometimes. But it’s not. It’s here, it’s you, it’s me. The majority of me is dark matter. Scary.
Scientists used to imagine that dark matter was composed of very few particles moving very slowly. Very recently they think they’ve found that there are lots of particles and they move very fast! I loved hearing this. In my frame of reference, all I can imagine is that this is a move towards knowing that maybe there are something approaching what we might think of as parallel universes – moving with us, within us, through us. Imagine that sort if reality! Where we are but mere ‘ghosts’ or occasional shadows falling on some other ….. universe’s …. er ….world?....????
We can’t experience rock-solid reality directly because we only have our human brains. Everything we perceive we perceive through our limited perception powers. We interpret everything, we cannot ‘know it’ in the sense of ‘being it’. This used to frustrate me when I was younger.
and that we each have a dream we are "living" and that the collective dream drives what happens to us in the world, collectively
I guess so, in a way. Because we have such short lives, we don’t bother too much about caring for the planet. If we each lived to say 1,000 years the world would be vastly different. If we were thinking straight, I imagine we’d have much slower ‘progress’, tiny population, very healthy planet. Maybe not. Maybe we’d get very bored and die early from all the toxic drugs we’d invented to get out of our heads?
I think if there is a collective dream, it is that our lives are important, that humans are somehow important, because we can’t deal with the idea that we might not be. I don’t think we are: I think that is a survival mechanism against life’s meaninglessness. Not that meaninglessness is necessarily bad or good; it just is. Life is what it is and we’re here to live it :D
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Portia, we sure could have great chat over coffee one day!!! More later when I have time.
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Hi all:
I think I have a lot of trouble with half of number 1, and most of number 2, some of number 3 and 4. :shock: :shock: :shock:
IMPECCABLE
??? :shock: :shock:
Using words without ever having flaws? Like I could actually do that?? :shock: :shock:
I doubt I have that ability, to be honest. I often feel like I can't find the right words or I don't use the right words or I mix up the meaning of words. Sometimes I'll laugh and say how dense I am (but I guess I don't really think I'm totally brainless ......just capable of being totally brainless sometimes-- :oops: :roll:).
Speak with integrity? There's that word we spent a good part of a thread defining and I learned there that it can mean a lot more than I thought. Now.....to see it here....in regard to the spoken word??? Ok I try but I won't say it happens always or even on the whole, if I consider every definition of the word. I guess I don't gossip a lot and I'm heading in the direction of truth and love, most of the time, so maybe I'm about 1/2 way on my way to agreement number 1.
And number 2.......DON'T TAKE ANYTHING
PERSONALLY.....Nothing
others do is because of you
ok, I get stuck with the words anything and nothing. I have a hard time with absolutes like that, I guess (if I use my brain enough to notice them, that is :?). If nothing others do is because of me then I should be able to drink tequila and smoke dope while swearing my way to town while my kids watch. :shock: :shock: They learn from what I do and of course what they do is most certainly partly due to me and what I say and do. (I take credit for allllllllllll of their good qualities, good looks, good decisions and good inherited traits!! 8) The rest......is from their father!! :D :D :D---just kidding eh).
But I guess if I were capable of always being impeccable with my words, speaking with integrity, saying what I mean, never doing the gossip thingy and using my words in the direction of truth and love, all of the time..... :? :?...no wait.....what I did then would still effect my kids, wouldn't it and so what they do would still have something to do with me....my words and actions......wouldn't it?
And you wanna bet I'm gonna take it personally when someone I love, I'm bound to legally and emotionally, someone I share my life with.......does ANYTHING that directly hurts me. How could I not take it personally when it effects me so very personally? Or when someone I love, I'm bound to legally and emotionally, someone I share my life with......sacrifices and selflessly gives.....to me.....for me........ANYTHING.....that directly helps me.....well......you probably get it now......I take that very personally too. How could I not? It's not like I'm a stranger or a nobody am I? It just seems like some things are kind of personal.
When you are immune to the opinions and actions of others, you won't be the victim of needless suffering.
This is probably true but I'm not sure I WANT to be immune to it all because then I might be numb and 1/2 dead inside......feeling very little if anything??? :shock: :shock: :?
I'm not just confused by number 2......nor do I just have a hard time with it........but .......I don't even really agree with it much at all. I don't think it's an agreement I WANT to make with myself because I don't just hurt from what others say and do......I benefit too......from their good, kind and generous words and actions. I don't want to be immune to what others say and do......I want to be aware and to feel and to be able to adjust, choose, react.......sanely. I think it's near impossible not to be affected, influenced or not to respond sometimes and I don't want to be some kind of.......brick wall or something. :|
I try not to do number 3 but the order is impossible to keep because I'm not perfect. No way will I ever be able to not make assumptions and again.....sometimes.....it's good to make assumptions. It can be a help. It can be useful. I won't even say I won't ever make negative assumptions because sometimes.......I do. :oops: :roll: But I try not to.....so maybe I'm part way 1/2 way part way to number 3?? :shock: :?
And number 4 would be something I would say I totally agree with because I try .....if it wasn't for that absolute word: ALWAYS
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For me, it's impossible to make and keep these 4 agreements with myself or anyone else. It's a wonderful code of conduct, in many ways, but requires a certain perfection, I think, that I most surely don't have.
I hope I haven't upset anyone by saying all of this. It all just struck me because I've read these agreements before and found them to be reasonable and likely to transform my life....when I just accepted them and didn't really think about them or think much about what the agreements really are. Wait a minute.......ofcourse it's what they might transform my life into.....that's got me really wondering now?? :? :?
Well....if you're really into number 2, hopefully what I just wrote won't really be of consequence. I guess if not...then you'll be wondering along with me. :mrgreen: (I just love that green guy!~!)
Sela
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I like this, Sela.
Too foggy on dwugs (dentist dwugs) to be articulate, but I had sent the Four Agreements to my D, and then found I had to send your comments (w/o identifying you or the board) to her too!
Hops
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ha, Sela! When I first read the four agreements, they bothered me soooo much. It reminded me of my very dogmatic mother, reading some religious or popular psych tenet and then posting it on the fridge as some kind of "rule" that we kids would instantly "get" and start following.
I think you are right about the "judgemental" wording....I think that's what gets me, too. And this wording can be an invitation, if we aren't already hyper-self-critical, to put a harsh judgement on ourselves for not always agreeing to the agreements..
But I take it a little differently than at face value, although Ruiz himself DID say "impeccable with our word" so I guess I should not take liberties (although I think it's translated into English as it is!!).
Anyway, I try hard not to get wrapped up too much in symantics, and instead try to catch the germ of the idea and see where that makes sense to me.
I guess I could get blasted for that, what with the wierd stuff going on on this board lately, but I remain a "feeler" and I trust my intuition about things written and implied. Ruiz's writings are such a thing.
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Hiya Sela :D, lemme take just one thing…’Taking it personally’:
And you wanna bet I'm gonna take it personally when someone I love, I'm bound to legally and emotionally, someone I share my life with.......does ANYTHING that directly hurts me.
Are they doing it intentionally to hurt you? Is it personally directed only to hurt you? No other motivation?
If that’s so, then I would feel crap that my judgement and the trust I’d placed in them was incorrect. I would feel bad about myself. I would feel I was wrong to love them.
Is that taking it personally? Or is that seeing my part in the relationship?
If the person does something that hurts us indirectly, again, it’s motivation. Did they do it knowing that we would be hurt? If not………why do we take it personally?
“I crashed the car and killed our children” – taking it personally means the other person did it because of you. They did it because of you, to hurt you…etc.
Taking it personally is thinking that other people deliberately do things to affect us, with no other motivation.
I think we all do things first and foremost for ourselves. Even altruism is good for us, so that’s not entirely altruistic!
I don’t read these agreements as commandments or directives. I read them to see how I understand them and what they mean to me, what I don’t understand about them and why I agree or don’t agree. I see them as controversial, a talking point, words to make us THINK! 8)
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More Sela :D
If nothing others do is because of me then I should be able to drink tequila and smoke dope while swearing my way to town while my kids watch. They learn from what I do and of course what they do is most certainly partly due to me and what I say and do.
What they learn from you is not exactly what you communicate to them. What they learn is what they interpret from what you say and do. Humans aren’t brainless receptacles! We all, as children and adults, interpret the world through our own senses. If you go off on a wild binge, maybe your kids will think you’re in need of help? It won’t necessarily make them go off on wild binges. Otherwise we’d have a lot more child abusers, murderers etc etc. On the other hand, maybe they would go off on wild binges? Do children tend to do exactly what their parents do, or are they more likely to do the opposite? Or somewhere in the middle?
My parent told me recently “how did you get to be so intelligent? It must be from my genes.” I was so insulted. Until I thought – this isn’t about me, it’s about them. Gosh they must feel so ignorant. Why don’t they do something about it?
Is that me being numb and immune to their words? Or is it me refusing to believe my emotional reaction? (“I feel insulted, they think so little of me, they think I’m just an extension of them, I don’t exist, I might as well not exist”. Helpful feelings?)
I don't want to be immune to what others say and do......I want to be aware and to feel and to be able to adjust, choose, react.......sanely. I think it's near impossible not to be affected, influenced or not to respond sometimes and I don't want to be some kind of.......brick wall or something.
It’s not about you. It’s about them. It says “nothing others do is because of you”. YOU don’t cause them to act and think the way they do.
You can be affected BUT don’t think it’s them that’s affecting you. It’s you that’s affecting you.
“You make me feel X” is logical nonsense.
Well....if you're really into number 2, hopefully what I just wrote won't really be of consequence.
Well…….i can see that what you’re saying is because of the way you read and interpret the agreements! It has zero zip zilch to do with me. :D Yep, I don’t think you wrote what you wrote just to affect me! If I did…………..what would that make me???? How about a self-obsessed delusional idiot?
I think you write for you and to share what you think, to test your reality, your interpretation, with others.
I do believe that nobody does anything specifically only and because of me.
Assumptions: I assume the sun will set tonight. Of course that’s nonsense. The sun never sets. The earth tilts away from the sun. The language we use is rubbish!
I assume that H will take a train home tonight and that the train will not crash. I assume that I will drive the car to the station to collect him. I assume that I won’t crash the car and kill myself on the way (I really do assume that – I haven’t made my will yet and that’s real important in our situation. Perhaps if I challenge that assumption – that life goes on – I’ll make that will right now).
We have to make assumptions in order to act upon the world. However if we know we’re making assumptions all the time, maybe we’ll think more about our lives and actions and take more care in what we do.
I should make that will. I could die today. That’s a simple example of where challenging assumptions can help.
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“The earth tilts away from the sun.” Whoops! Haha
Unless you’re in the er….southern hemisphere….where the earth tilts towards the sun? I guess you know what I mean. Actually....does it tilt at all, really.....
It’s a bit like the expression “on top of the world”. I would love to have one of those maps where Antarctica is on the top.
Or the idea that we can ever be ‘still’ while whipping around the sun at the rate we do. “be still” what, on this planet?
Assumptions. I love thinking about them.
Sela, what do you think? See anything different in the agreements? Am I making any sense today….
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Hi Portia,
I have read the Four Agreements and found it useful. Out of curiosity, I also scheduled to attend a seminar by Don Miguel Ruiz (the author), but he unfortunately suffered a heart attack prior to the meeting, and needless to say, everything was canceled.
My parent told me recently “how did you get to be so intelligent? It must be from my genes.” I was so insulted. Until I thought – this isn’t about me, it’s about them. Gosh they must feel so ignorant. Why don’t they do something about it?
Is that me being numb and immune to their words? Or is it me refusing to believe my emotional reaction? (“I feel insulted, they think so little of me, they think I’m just an extension of them, I don’t exist, I might as well not exist”. Helpful feelings?)
Anyway, considering what little I know about you, you are intelligent and insightfully unique in your thinking. It seems to me you were right in thinking "this isn’t about me, it’s about them"! Even though your emotions are to feel insulted, it's not...“ they think so little of me". Not to sound cold--I think they are observing you and thinking of themself. You know, lend credibility to themself through you. I'm not sure about the "extention" piece but, as an offspring, maybe it's hard for them to imagine your level of intelligence while reflecting on their own. "It must be from my genes" sounds to me like they want to take pride in the fact that maybe their genetics played a role in your intelligence. So again, this is so about them and, if you can see it, there is a compliment to you in there. It's sad they can't feel, about themselves, equal attributes to what they see in you. Their most obvious "ignorance" is the lack of desire or knowledge to want to "do something about it". Maybe it's more an unconscious personal choice of generation, as well as, genetics?
Just my thoughts. BJ
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And thank you for your thoughts BJ. I agree with everything you’ve said. That’s a conversation stopper eh?! Okay what can I ponder on….
there is a compliment to you in there
I was just thinking about the matter of giving and receiving compliments.
If you give a compliment, you are presuming that the person you are complimenting gives a fig about your opinion. Giving a compliment is a self-healthy thing to do maybe. You think your opinions matter. Okay.
You give compliments to people you know, and who you know think well of you, so it becomes reciprocal, it cements bonds between you. All well and good.
What happens when you start giving compliments to people you don’t know? People serving in shops etc. ?
Why do we give compliments? To get something back.
I don’t want to accept any hidden compliment in that earlier statement. Because any acceptance or reply infers something is returning to the compliment-giver. And that compliment was given totally selfishly. It was given as an attack – you’re so intelligent (“getting above yourself, because I don’t understand, therefore you’re being ‘bright’ on purpose just to annoy me…” and so on) but it's from me, so I'm better. or maybe it was a joke. Either way, it doesn't need saying. Why say it?
It’s driven by fear.
Their most obvious "ignorance" is the lack of desire or knowledge to want to "do something about it". Maybe it's more an unconscious personal choice of generation, as well as, genetics?
Not sure what you mean by generation? Their choice to not want knowledge, or my choice to want it?
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Portia,
You bring up many interesting points.If you give a compliment, you are presuming that the person you are complimenting gives a fig about your opinion. Giving a compliment is a self-healthy thing to do maybe. You think your opinions matter.
I think of compliments more like this: If I say, "I like your dress", that is about my personal taste in clothing, rather than saying, "that dress looks nice on you". Yes, either way, it is my opinion and I assume my opinion is of interest to the receiver.
You give compliments to people you know, and who you know think well of you, so it becomes reciprocal, it cements bonds between you. All well and good.
Why do we give compliments? To get something back.
I think I give compliments because when I genuinely think it, it deserves to be shared. Maybe, just maybe, it might put a smile on someone's face. No hidden assumptions about my opinions...only my feelings. However they are received, well yes, I do get something back. I get a feeling of appreciation for that person, in that moment. Sound too corny? I guess this part is about me and what I get.
Now,What happens when you start giving compliments to people you don’t know? People serving in shops etc. ?
If the compliments are genuine, maybe they'll appreciate someone noticing their intention to do a good job or whatever it's about. I haven't really thought about this before but, I don't think I compliment for any other reason. I"ll try to think about this.
I don’t want to accept any hidden compliment in that earlier statement. Because any acceptance or reply infers something is returning to the compliment-giver. And that compliment was given totally selfishly. It was given as an attack – you’re so intelligent (“getting above yourself, because I don’t understand, therefore you’re being ‘bright’ on purpose just to annoy me…” and so on) but it's from me, so I'm better. or maybe it was a joke. Either way, it doesn't need saying. Why say it?
It’s driven by fear.
Was the compliment given in a sarcastic tone? Please take this in a friendly way-- If not, what I feel from you Portia is absolute anger and resentment. I ask myself if we can see clearly when we have been so hurt over the years. This is a useful tool for me, thanks. But hearing you from the "outside" and not knowing anything about the situation or the characters involved, it sounds to me like your concern is to not give them any satisfaction, rather than, giving it to yourself. Who is really being driven by fear, you or them???? And, one more thing.
"Their most obvious "ignorance" is the lack of desire or knowledge to want to "do something about it". Maybe it's more an unconscious personal choice of generation, as well as, genetics?"Not sure what you mean by generation? Their choice to not want knowledge, or my choice to want it?
I meant, our generation is more conscious and insightful. We are more likely to do something in a well-thought-out way because we must, rather than doing it simply because it is expected of us and we must.
Our parents generation, IMO, was often on auto-pilot with regards to parenting. And regarding their knowledge...I meant, they first have to care enough to notice and KNOW there is something that needs to be "worked on" or addressed, before they can even think about whether or not they have a desire to do anything about it. All this takes mindfulness, intention, and work. I just don't think our parents generation thought like we do. What do you think? One last comment, Portia. Remember, forgiveness is something you give yourself! It may be about someone else, but it's FOR you. Be well. BJ
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BJ thank you for your thoughtful post, which I will think about. The comment was written so no tone and room for lots of misinterpretation. Yep lots of resentment and anger from me, it was from a very significant person...who I struggle to see clearly and who doesn't see me at all. The ultimate brick wall I guess. I'm away now, will be back another day. Thanks again. P
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Hiya all
I've read these four agreements over and over again, but wasn't sure what to reply, then this happened today.
I knew I had a problem with No.2. I know I take things too personally, but I couldn't really think why. However driving to work I was in three lanes of traffic. The first lane goes left & straight on, the second lane goes straight on and the third lane goes right and straight on. I needed to go straight on so as there were loads of traffic in the middle lane, I went into the third and indicated round the roundabout. I checked my wing mirror and it was clear so I pulled in, only to be beeped at. I guess the women in the silver car behind who beeped was in my blind spot, however some guy pulled up alongside me, beeped, pointed at his eyes and mouthed "F*cking look". So now I don't know if it wasn't the woman behind me who beeped and I've just got it all wrong. But (and here's where it ties into this post), I'll bet the guy isn't sat at work thinking about it, wondering why, mulling it over. You know, it's done now, there's nothing I can change and I think most people just let things go. It's not doing me any favours to go over it, and yet I do.
Also Portia, I wondered if you had thought any more about your last post?
BJ thank you for your thoughtful post, which I will think about. The comment was written so no tone and room for lots of misinterpretation. Yep lots of resentment and anger from me, it was from a very significant person...who I struggle to see clearly and who doesn't see me at all. The ultimate brick wall I guess. I'm away now, will be back another day. Thanks again. P
I'm not sure which significant person your talking about here... who do you struggle to see and who doesn't see you? Is this yourself? A parent? Who is the ultimate brick wall?
In regards to compliments I think I agree with BJ. When I offer a compliment I mean it, when I tell you that I like reading what you write Portia, I mean it. It's up to you what you do with it, accept it, reject it, disect it even. How do you feel when someone gives you a compliment Portia? There are different kind of compliments too.... last night my friend asked me to be Godmother to her daughter. While not an outright compliment, I'm touched and glad that she chose me to be her daughter's Godmother. I choose to take that as a compliment. Do you know what I mean?
Love H&H xx
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Hiya H&H
Not a nice experience you had this morning: I really get jangled up by aggression on the road – I feel it’s usually dangerous. What bothers you about the incident? Not knowing who bleeped you, or the fact that they bleeped at all? Or the mouthing aggressive words? It would all bother me, slightly less than it used to. If I’m ‘guilty’ (it was my fault, I made a mistake), I’ll try and communicate that with an open hand held up meaning ‘sorry’. Or if I can see the person, I’ll say ‘sorry’.
But where someone else makes a mistake on the road and then projects their mistake on to me by acting as though I caused it – that’s a hoot (no pun intended). I don’t react to that any more, it’s their problem and if anything, I tend to shake my head to myself, after the event.
How do you react in either situation? What exactly are you thinking about (and feeling?) in going over what happened?
Thanks for bringing this thread back up H&H and hello BJ too. I think I'm done on this though. :D
When I offer a compliment I mean it, when I tell you that I like reading what you write Portia, I mean it.
Thank you H&H and I would accept it from you, and Hops and a host of people whose intentions I believe are true and helpful. But not everyone’s intentions are helpful.
How wonderful to be asked to be a Godmother! :D I think that is a great compliment H&H – to be asked to be involved in a child’s spiritual protection? It implies great trust in you I think.
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Hiya (((((Portia)))))
What bothers me about this morning is more not knowing who beeped me, rather than being beeped, was it the woman behind me, or was it the guy. Did I make a mistake? I don’t know… I don’t think I did but that doesn’t mean I didn’t. I didn’t hand gesture sorry because I was too shocked.
I can understand why you can’t see your mother clearly, but maybe your mother will never have the same reality as you? So maybe by needing your mother’s reality to be alongside yours, you are fighting (well not fighting but just using it in the figure of speech kind of thing) a losing battle? It would help you if her reality was the same, but as it’s not and maybe never will be, then what happens? How can you resolve this to help you? Just really throwing some questions around for you to ponder.
Hmmmm, thinking about compliments also…. If it’s given in a sarcastic tone then is it a compliment? I wouldn’t say it was…. I wouldn’t call it a “compliment”. Again, just throwing some thoughts in there.
Yes, I am pleased they asked me to be godmother. But already I’m starting to panic about it. It means I have to stand up in front of everyone in the church whereas I like to hide in the back. I hate being stood in front of everyone and having to talk out loud. I’m sure I’ll be ok…. If I managed at my wedding, I’m sure I can do this!
With regard to the older woman outside your house, that made me smile. I just had a surreal mental image of you having the same conversation for an hour…. “no I mean it, it really suits you” “thank you” “but it does, it really suits you”, “thank you” “I do think that colour really suits you” “thank you”. But in fairness there isn’t much you can say unless you joke and say “Yes thanks very much… I believe you”.
Love H&H xx
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Hi H&H
Yes, not knowing if you made a mistake is a problem and in this case, you can’t exactly ask can you? Maybe you did, maybe not, it’s gone now. Does it matter who it was? I guess I’d think if it was the woman did she beep out of worry, if it was the guy did he beep out of aggression? Either way, you won’t know so what will you do in future? Use the middle lane at all times unless you feel like ‘taking a chance’?
I don’t expect or need her reality to be the same as mine, no way. I want to get a better handle on it, especially as it ‘seems’ to be changing slightly or maybe that’s my imagination.
You’ll be fine H&H if you believe what you say. Speaking is easy if you know your subject?
Ahhh those little words – I believe you. I get it. Thanks H&H.
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H&H, I posted something I've edited out because i thought if it freaks me out, I'll research it, so I know more about it. Just wanted to say thanks for your posts and that's why if you did read something that's gone, that's why! Hope you have a better day than your morning :D
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No I didn't read it... I'm really intrigued now :D
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(((((((((((((H&H)))))))))))))))))))
Traffic scares are the worst, I'm so glad you didnt have a wreck.
I don't like motorcycle guys who rub it in, like they never laid down their bikes?
Maybe you did make a mistake, because you were thinking Deep Thoughts.
You are allowed to make mistakes and not notice. Great Minds get distracted.
Have a good day in spite of the shaky start!
(((((((((((Portia))))))))))))))))
Whatever thoughts you are thinking or challenge you are having today in
any way, small or large, I hope they go smoothly and you find you're liking yourself even
just a smidgen as much as I do. As then you'd have a really good day.
clumsily -still waking-,
Hops
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Hi Portia:
Been reading your posts and thinking some more and here's my opinion:
Are they doing it intentionally to hurt you? Is it personally directed only to hurt you? No other motivation?
Whether a person acts to intentionally hurt or out of sheer selfishness means they choose to do so without regard for the harm they may cause and for me.......this is personal. It means they either didn't consider or ignored the fact that their actions might cause harm or chose to act regardless. I believe most people are not idiots and are quite capable of knowing the consequences of their behaviour. And.......we are all capable of acting selfishly or with intent to hurt.
If that’s so, then I would feel crap that my judgement and the trust I’d placed in them was incorrect. I would feel bad about myself. I would feel I was wrong to love them.
And what weight to do place on their behaviour? This seems as though you are the only one responsible for judging, trusting or loving. The other person gets to do as they like, regardless of your feelings?
There are some people who are expert at cheating, lying, duping others. They make a carreer of it. I see the point in trying to find clues to be aware of, signs, listen to our instincts, etc....but I don't think I want to kick myself when I'm already down. My judging, trusting and loving had no intention of hurting. If their behaviour obviously did, or selfishly ignored that possibility.......I take it personal.
Is that taking it personally? Or is that seeing my part in the relationship?
I can easily take my part in a relationship but when a relationship is treated without value by the other person, I think their actions are what take the cake. If I've made a poor choice of who to trust and love, that's one thing, but if they've chosen me, that's another eh?
If the person does something that hurts us indirectly, again, it’s motivation. Did they do it knowing that we would be hurt? If not………why do we take it personally?
We all make mistakes. When I make a mistake, I generally try to admit it, take responsibility for it, make up for it, if I am aware of it. If someone points it out I will likely do the same. Part of taking responsibility is admitting I chose to act (I'm not talking about stupid mistakes that just happen.....I'm talking about big stuff). I agree it's important to try to examine motivation. It's also important to remember that people do make choices and they are, for the most part, able to tell what could happen when they act. I take it personally when they either ignor that or choose to act anyway, regardless of how much they may hurt others.
“I crashed the car and killed our children” – taking it personally means the other person did it because of you. They did it because of you, to hurt you…etc.
Unless you did it to intentionally hurt me......that would be a mistake. An error. Unless you clearly did it to cause harm, I would assume it was not intentional and not take it personally.
Taking it personally is thinking that other people deliberately do things to affect us, with no other motivation.
Yes, or.......for selfish reasons.....without considering or in spite of considering others.
I think we all do things first and foremost for ourselves. Even altruism is good for us, so that’s not entirely altruistic!
Maybe so. Sometimes, people do stuff to intentionally hurt or because they don't care if it hurts anyone else. What do you think?
I don’t read these agreements as commandments or directives. I read them to see how I understand them and what they mean to me, what I don’t understand about them and why I agree or don’t agree. I see them as controversial, a talking point, words to make us THINK!
That's a great thing to do. I just wouldn't accept them as directives or advice on how to to make my life better. I think, the way I'm reading them thus far, I have a long way to go to where you are with them.
re my behaviour having an effect on my children: If you go off on a wild binge, maybe your kids will think you’re in need of help? It won’t necessarily make them go off on wild binges. Otherwise we’d have a lot more child abusers, murderers etc etc. On the other hand, maybe they would go off on wild binges? Do children tend to do exactly what their parents do, or are they more likely to do the opposite? Or somewhere in the middle?
Ofcourse you're right. People do whatever they chose based on what they think, feel, and want. But I won't feel good about what I've done if I haven't at least tried to behave the way I'd like to see them behave. So wild binges are out, for me and I really do think it has a positive effect to on children when parents behave like parents, instead of like party animals. I know kids who grew up with parents like that and guess what they do now? :shock: The same thing. Ofcourse, there are no guarantees but it just seems like the most reasonable course of action....to do one's best to behave well, as an example for one's children.
My parent told me recently “how did you get to be so intelligent? It must be from my genes.” I was so insulted. Until I thought – this isn’t about me, it’s about them. Gosh they must feel so ignorant. Why don’t they do something about it?
Is that me being numb and immune to their words? Or is it me refusing to believe my emotional reaction? (“I feel insulted, they think so little of me, they think I’m just an extension of them, I don’t exist, I might as well not exist”. Helpful feelings?)
There's an old saying: "Consider the source". Good advice, I think. Pay more attention to the words and actions of people you admire, respect, trust and love and less attention.....take less personally.......those of the rest. So ya......immune to the words/actions of idiots, jerks, mean people......might be a better way to put it, if you ask me.
It’s not about you. It’s about them. It says “nothing others do is because of you”. YOU don’t cause them to act and think the way they do.
I get it. In that case, I understand it to mean....don't blame yourself for their actions. My point exactly. As you can see, I didn't read it that way, at first. Not everyone will.
You can be affected BUT don’t think it’s them that’s affecting you. It’s you that’s affecting you.
If I lived on an island, alone, I would be the only one who could affect me. I can choose to quit focussing on their behaviour, to express my feelings about it and get those out, to move along and put whatever they did that hurt me out of my head, or least, in the back of my mind but I can't erase what I felt when their actions affected me and I believe.....those actions did affect me. The only possible way such actions could not affect me would be if I were numb or dead.
Example a young man knocks an elderly lady out of her wheel chair and steals her purse. She hits her head and breaks some bones. Her money is gone. True story.
Should she blame herself for wheeling along the sidewalk? For having $20 in her purse? Will she not feel hurt, afraid, angry, etc? Wouldn't anyone? The physical pain.......won't she feel it? Can she choose not to? Is she thinking she's allowing that physical pain to affect her? Or is it real physical pain that is actually affecting her?
The guy knocked her over and stole her money for selfish reasons (or worse.....for the sheer joy of it). He ignored the hurt he caused her or excused it or whatever he did with it but he sure as _____ didn't go and turn himself in, confess, repent, beg for her forgiveness, offer to make up for the harm he caused, or anything remotely close to that. She was and will continue to be affected by his actions which, as you say, may have had very little to do with her, because he chose not to see her or value her as a human or consider her or care at all about her, so yes, he acted selfishly, which is still a bold statement that she.......
.........is nothing. She's just a source of money for him. Nothing else.
“You make me feel X” is logical nonsense.
Agreed. When you knock me out of my wheel chair, terrify me, break my bones and steal my money, I'm gonna feel _______________ (fill in the blank). Without your actions, I would experience none of those feelings.
Well…….i can see that what you’re saying is because of the way you read and interpret the agreements! It has zero zip zilch to do with me. Yep, I don’t think you wrote what you wrote just to affect me! If I did…………..what would that make me???? How about a self-obsessed delusional idiot?
So much is based on how we interpret eh? My action of writing a post containing my opinion could be interpreted a number of ways, I guess. I don't think you would be a self-obsessed delusional idiot even if you did think I wrote it specifically to affect you. You might think it was a gift or just food for thought or whatnot.
I think you write for you and to share what you think, to test your reality, your interpretation, with others.
Ya. You too, I think. And sometimes....I write to release my feelings or with the specific intention of communicating something to someone.
I do believe that nobody does anything specifically only and because of me.
Why not? Aren't you worthy? Aren't you worth their effort?
We have to make assumptions in order to act upon the world. However if we know we’re making assumptions all the time, maybe we’ll think more about our lives and actions and take more care in what we do.
Good point. I agree entirely.
Mum wrote: I try hard not to get wrapped up too much in symantics, and instead try to catch the germ of the idea and see where that makes sense to me.
That's a great way of looking at these agreements Mum! I think my point was that if we take these word for word, as some kind of directive, there could be trouble ahead.
:D Sela
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I think Don ...I fergit... is a really smart, charismatic, charming and clever man who has done a wonderful job of distilling some truths that are sort of spiritual common sense.
As to their being ancient Toltec wisdom, I personally think that's excellent marketing.
I enjoyed the books. But imo, they're not divine revelation. Nothing written in a book is, for me.
(I think divinity, whatever that means, isn't something that any human being goes around proclaiming. I think "proclaiming" got confused with "behaving lovingly" a long time ago.)
The holy glows, for me, when someone acts from the good and doesn't have much to say about it. I see it in faces, eyes, hands.
Hops
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Hops
thank you for your good wishes. I had a mini er….episode yesterday. I wrote a couple of posts, then thought lots of stuff, and deleted them because I’d decided that who the heck am I to be even posting? One of those things, just an hour or so. So I went out and spoke to people in shops and so on and felt better. I’d decided that I had meddled in Bean’s thread and that I was a bad person for doing it and I should think more about how my actions affect others :shock:. Hahahahaha!
That’s why “nothing others do is because of you” is so meaningful to me! :D
But I forgot it! :?
It comes from being responsible and being blamed for all the crap that goes down. Toxic shame city! Then I read H&H about her driving difficulty and read it as: one woman and one man are going about their business on the road and here comes someone down the middle, upsetting one, or both, of them and wow…..grandiose paranoia spiral for a good oooooo 20 minutes? Get the picture? No….? It’s patterns.
I can do that easily sometimes. I see patterns that don’t exist. I see ‘messages’ that are in code. Really stupid stuff. And these aren’t messages telling me I’m ‘good’ oh no, these are attacking me. I felt the board was attacking me. :shock: :shock: Sicko. Is that paranoia on a small scale? I think so. :?
Much better today. Happy to talk about it :D. Realistic I hope. Laughing at myself. Taking the board too seriously. Taking myself too seriously before. Really it’s a joke. But I can see how people could get in a real spiral like this. Scary. Interesting.
And I thought about my cousin yesterday. He’s in/out of hospital, okay a special unit. He’s always been different. He sounds schizophrenic. Mum tells me (I asked) he has ECT. That totally freaks me out. Makes me angry and scared. She’s trying to help and that freaks me out too (for at least two reasons). His dad is the uncle who called me and asked me to phone her up that time? The time I realised, eventually, that I can say “no thanks”. Ick. Is this my ‘family’? I don’t know these people, never have known them. Am I involved? Do I want to be? Could I go and see him and hold his hand and sit and listen? Does it matter?
Change the subject and I’ll forget it for now.
Hiya Sela. :D
I agree with you I think. I interpret it differently.
I like ‘nobody does things because of me’ because it lets me off the hook for causing other peoples’ feelings. I haven’t read the books, I only read what is here from posts way back.
In a nutshell this is it: someone can beat me up, can love me, can do anything to me – but do I make them do it? Nope. Even if I goad them, incite them to violence, incite them to love me – their actions will be based on their world-view, their previous experiences, their perceptions.
‘Don’t take it personally’ doesn’t mean ‘don’t react’. It means don’t take it that they are acting simply because you exist. They would probably do the same things to someone else. ‘Don’t take it personally’ means to me – I am not special. I am no more special than anyone else. It does not mean – don’t feel, don’t react. No way!
Oh you did read it that way :D:
don't blame yourself for their actions. My point exactly. As you can see, I didn't read it that way, at first. Not everyone will.
Should she blame herself for wheeling along the sidewalk? For having $20 in her purse? Will she not feel hurt, afraid, angry, etc? Wouldn't anyone? The physical pain.......won't she feel it? Can she choose not to? Is she thinking she's allowing that physical pain to affect her? Or is it real physical pain that is actually affecting her?
It’s about how she makes sense of her experience:
She could decide to think: youth of today, they all hate us old people, they should be shot. It was better in my day. People are so selfish and cruel these days. I’m going to make sure I carry a gun in future. And I’ll use it.
She could think: it’s because God hates me. It because I was a bad kid to my parents. It’s because I didn’t live my life well enough. It’s my fault. He did it because of me.
Or she could think: shit. I was in the wrong place at the wrong time. I was unlucky. It could have been anybody. Thank goodness I’m alive.
The guy knocked her over and stole her money for selfish reasons (or worse.....for the sheer joy of it).
Do people do bad things for the sheer joy of it? Unless they're sadists (and if they're sadists...is that real joy?)
She's just a source of money for him. Nothing else.
How do you know? ..............ponder.........he might have been beaten by his grandmother and particularly chose an old woman. It doesn't excuse his action but it might explain part of it. Revenge and money? ...........Or he might be in a drug psychosis? (and why do peole take drugs...)........Or is he just plain evil, with no motivation other than to be evil?
You might think it was a gift or just food for thought or whatnot.
Quote I think you write for you and to share what you think, to test your reality, your interpretation, with others.
Ya. You too, I think. And sometimes....I write to release my feelings or with the specific intention of communicating something to someone.
I do think posts are gifts 8). And food for thought. And to release feelings and to influence! And I also (when I’m nuts) think posts are a lot more too! Not today. But some serious issues in here I feel... okay,……I *think* :? :D.
(((((((((Sela)))))))))
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((((((Portia))))))
I think we all have paranoia at some point or another hon. I know I did yesterday morning…. For me it was “what did I do wrong” and it took a fair amount of thinking about it to think I probably didn’t do anything wrong. Was I in the wrong lane – No. Did I not indicate – No. The lanes do merge into one but I was clearly indicating and if the other driver missed it, then turned round and blamed me for it, what could I do? Not a lot, but it took me a while to get there.
We have been wrong wrong wrong for so long, is it really not surprising we don’t trust ourselves, automatically assume we’ve made a mistake?
The only thing I see from your posts Portia, is that I feel you are too hard on yourself.
Tomorrow is always another day.
Love H&H xx
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Hiya (((((((((((((((((Portia)))))))))))))): Sorry you had a weird day yesterday.
It comes from being responsible and being blamed for all the crap that goes down. Toxic shame city!
Yep. From being............over responsible and blamed for stuff that is not yours and never was....and that cold damp blanket of green slimey toxic shame evelopes your being...........SUCKS away all logical and reasonable thought!!!! The feeling over rides all and takes control. And this becomes a habit. :( :( :( :( :(
I'm sorry that that was taught to you and that you are still suffering from it!! It makes me so mad!! :x :x :x :x :x :x :x I want to get those who did that and duct tape them and blow my whistle for awhile!!
(Not that that would fix them or even effect them much, maybe, but I would get to speak and vent!!! Hahahaha! And swear!!!)
&^%*$#!
:shock: :shock: Probably wouldn't help.
Sorry (((((((((((P))))))))))). We are all responsible for our own behaviour and you are very responsible at that. But these aliens who couldn't handle their own share, who were too sick or immature or psycho or stupid or whatever the reason........dumped on you. A child. A little girl.
Think how ridiculous that is!! How insane!! How unfair!!!
I'm glad the 4 agreements help you to reject that ridiculous, insane, unfair crap!! So in that case, keep them close and refer to them often because they help you and every good thing that helps you get away from that poisonous state is worth it's weight in gold.
I'm glad you're feeling better today. :D :D :D Yes I am!!!
:D Sela
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Aww, (((((((((((Portia, hon)))))))))))))))--
I am SO sorry about your horrible day.
It reminds me of what free-floating anxiety feels like.
A horrible, clammy-cold version of shame.
You SO deserve to exist, think, be free, say stuff, say great stuff, say wrong stuff, make mistakes, aim for clarity, be cloudy, fall facefirst in a puddle, dive facefirst in a clear lake...
You have a right to exist. You deserve to enjoy breathing.
You deserve the air, the sun on your face, the face of a flower.
You deserve every good, beautiful thing on this earth, Portia.
(I was in kind of a pissy, bitter mood when I dissed the 4 Agreements. I'm jealous. Wish I'd written a hot book.)
I am so glad you climbed back on here and told us how you were feeling.
I hope it's soon lighter in your heart...that lovely, expansive place.
Hops
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Hi again P:
Been thinking some more.......especially about this number 2 agreement: DON'T TAKE ANYTHING PERSONALLY
Or she could think: shit. I was in the wrong place at the wrong time. I was unlucky. It could have been anybody. Thank goodness I’m alive.
This is probably a really healthy thing to think. It will certainly help the lady to recover from her ordeal, I would bet, and it focuses on the positive side.......that she is alive.
I get what you mean about not taking it personally, in her case, because it could have been anyone this happened to.....if they happened to be there. That makes a lot of sense. Thanks!
(it's seeeeeeping in.......a little at a time.......the stuff that helps.......the stuff that pushes that green, slimey, toxic juice out......Thanks for syringing that one in , P!! Seriously!!).
Another point though.......and I'm relating this to Jacmac's thread called: "Guarding yourself".......
which Jac talked about how she felt reduced by the N in her life (and compared this to greatly reducing the price tag on an expensive piece of clothing and then expecting the cashier to accept that price.
How crazy is that? Hope I got that right.....Jac :oops: .......I think it's very big stuff!! Very huge!!)
‘Don’t take it personally’ means to me – I am not special. I am no more special than anyone else
Wrong!!! ( :mrgreen: :mrgreen: :mrgreen: :mrgreen:)
And right, too, ofcourse P. Yes you are special Portia. You are unique and gifted and lovely and VALUABLE. I agree.....not more special.....but just as special as anyone else.
I just don't want number 2 to give you any reason to mark your own price tag down (we learn to do this ourselves, don't we, from the N-system?). Maybe it doesn't send your thoughts in that direction but I'm just making sure!!
'Cause I love to nag!! And I'm in a green smiley mood today!! :mrgreen: (and I want to cock his head sideways :D).
Someone might actually love you because of who you are. :shock: It is what they perceive, I agree, but that doesn't mean you alone happen to be in the right place at the right time.
It means you are priceless! Worthy! And the other person values you (yes....because they perceive.....your pricelessness). And they are also lucky enough to be in the right place at the right time.
:D Sela