Voicelessness and Emotional Survival Message Board

Voicelessness and Emotional Survival => Voicelessness and Emotional Survival Message Board => Topic started by: lightofheart on August 07, 2006, 08:43:06 PM

Title: On Bullying
Post by: lightofheart on August 07, 2006, 08:43:06 PM
Intro Note (from LoH)/Text on Bullying

Dear Folks,

Repeat bullying is why I chose to stop posting here, with sadness. In the same way that an atmosphere of mutual respect and basic civility encourages free speech and welcomes new voices to the table, I think verbal scorn and disparagement send toxic ripples into the VESMB community. The stress and intimidation generated by verbal bullying, imho, accumulate and extend beyond the instigator(s) and target(s) of any one act of bullying.

To clarify, I would draw a distinction between calling behavior bullying and calling someone a bully. As character assessment, imho, ‘bully’ sounds absolute and dismissive, just like any other name-calling. Identifying behavior as bullying, especially repeat behavior, I think, is a necessity of dealing with its consequences. I found the text reprinted below very useful, but I disagree with the author’s choice of ’bully’ as a label.

Disagreements, even impassioned ones, are a part of life. Exactly when fair comment crosses a line into derogatory speech isn’t always as clear-cut as name-calling and threats. I think bullying speech is usually belittling and toxic. Toxic accusation usually goes beyond objections and/or disgreement regarding someone else's words and disparages that person’s intent, character, or motives. The most common responses to this kind of bullying are angry and/or defensive responses or walking away—all responses that shift attention away from the person doing the bullying and their behavior.

Anyone can take offense, react defensively, or make accusations in the moment. Most people, imho, do this rarely, and later take responsibility for their behavior, express regret, and apologize or make amends. A person for whom belittling accusatory outbursts are a behavior pattern, accompanied by denial and/or justification in the moment and afterwards, evidences serial bullying and, statistically, is at a tremendous risk of repeating. Some people who vent their anger this way will repeat the pattern indefinitely across their life rather than take responsibility for their behavior and its affect on others. This would be my 100% flawed and subjective opinion…also 100% consistent with my experience around bullying behavior.

(If this info is helpful to one person, that’d be the best goodbye gift I could imagine leaving at VESMB, where I’ve reaped such benefits from all the generous and helpful information and heartfelt personal sharing from y’all. Thanks for all you've given me here!)

The following text on bullying was posted on www.bullyonline.org, website of the UK National Workplace Bullying Advice Line. I edited for length and relevance, also, to a small degree for content: I tried to eliminate the most absolute, potentially inflammatory and judgmental language about bullying; with it, mentions of personality disorders and several bullying/narcissism comparisons. I stuck to Attention-Seeking Bullying only, as a type, because seemed to mirror virtually all of the bullying I’ve observed here. I chose a thread rather than What Helps for this, because it struck me as potentially unwelcoming, possibly intimidating, material to place at an entry point for new VESMB visitors looking to share around healing and recovery.

Definition of workplace bullying by Tim Field
"Bullying is a compulsive need to displace aggression and is achieved by the expression of inadequacy (social, personal, interpersonal, behavioural, professional) by projection of that inadequacy onto others through control and subjugation (criticism, exclusion, isolation etc). Bullying is sustained by abdication of responsibility (denial, counter-accusation, pretence of victimhood) and perpetuated by a climate of fear, ignorance, indifference, silence, denial, disbelief, deception, evasion of accountability, tolerance and reward (eg promotion) for the bully."
Tim Field, 1999

"All cruelty springs from weakness."
(Seneca, 4BC-AD65)

"The truth is incontrovertible; malice may attack it, ignorance my deride it, but in the end, there it is."
Winston Churchill

I estimate one person in thirty, male or female, is a serial bully. Who does the following profile describe in your life?

The serial bully:


Responsibility
The serial bully appears to lack insight into his or her behaviour and seems to be oblivious to the crassness and inappropriateness thereof; however, it is more likely that the bully knows what they are doing but elects to switch off the moral and ethical considerations by which normal people are bound. If the bully knows what they are doing, they are responsible for their behaviour and thus liable for its consequences to other people. If the bully doesn't know what they are doing, they should be suspended from duty on the grounds of diminished responsibility and the provisions of the Mental Health Act should apply.

From casework I've been able to identify four primary types of serial bully:

The Attention-Seeker
Motivation: to be the centre of attention
Malice: medium to high; when held accountable, very high

Avoiding acceptance of responsibility - denial, counterattack and feigning victimhood

The serial bully is an adult on the outside but a child on the inside; he or she is like a child who has never grown up. The bully wants to enjoy the benefits of living in the adult world, but is unable and unwilling to accept the responsibilities that go with enjoying the benefits of the adult world. In short, the bully has never learnt to accept responsibility for their behaviour.

When called to account for the way they have chosen to behave, the bully instinctively exhibits this recognisable behavioural response:

a) Denial: the bully denies everything.

b) Retaliation: the bully counterattacks. The bully quickly and seamlessly follows the denial with an aggressive counter-attack of counter-criticism or counter-allegation, often based on distortion or fabrication.

Both a) and b) are delivered with aggression in the guise of assertiveness; in fact there is no assertiveness (which is about recognising and respecting the rights of oneself and others) at all.

c) Feigning victimhood: in the unlikely event of denial and counter-attack being insufficient, the bully feigns victimhood or feigns persecution by manipulating people through their emotions, especially guilt…

Other tactics include manipulating people's perceptions to portray themselves as the injured party and the target as the villain of the piece.

By using this response, the bully is able to avoid answering the question and thus avoid accepting responsibility for what they have said or done. A further advantage of the denial/counter-attack/feigning victimhood strategy is that it acts as a provocation. The target, who may have taken months to reach this stage, sees their tormentor getting away with it and is provoked into an angry and emotional outburst after which the bully says simply "There, I told you s/he was like that". By tapping in to and obtaining an inappropriate release of pent-up anger the bully plays their master stroke and casts their victim as villain.

Reflection
Serial bullies harbour a particular hatred of anyone who can articulate their behaviour profile, either verbally or in writing - as on this page - in a manner which helps other people see through their deception and their mask of deceit. Serial bullies hate to see themselves and their behaviour reflected as if they are looking into a mirror.

Projection
Bullies project their inadequacies, shortcomings, behaviours etc on to other people to avoid facing up to their inadequacy and doing something about it (learning about oneself can be painful), and to distract and divert attention away from themselves and their inadequacies. Projection is achieved through blame, criticism and allegation; once you realise this, every criticism, allegation etc that the bully makes about their target is actually an admission or revelation about themselves.
Title: Re: On Bullying
Post by: pennyplant on August 07, 2006, 09:15:21 PM
So very, very interesting.  And also familiar.  No wonder I have spent so much of my life feeling anger.  My sister was like this, I had a boss like this, neighborhood kids were like this.  And yes, I have had those feelings dredged up from time to time in this place.  Knowledge is power.  This knowledge may help me to learn to step back and recognize the pattern before I respond from the gut and lose my dignity.  This is a good gift, ((((LoH))))).

Pennyplant
Title: Re: On Bullying
Post by: moonlight52 on August 08, 2006, 12:42:36 AM
((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((LIGHT)))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))


(((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((PP))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))



M
Title: Re: On Bullying
Post by: Certain Hope on August 08, 2006, 01:22:26 AM
Dear LoH,

My introductory disclaimer (feeling silly as I type this)...

When I read your posting here, I wondered whether people are afraid to respond because any response at all might be viewed as "choosing sides" or "prolonging conflict". Of course I don't know what anyone else may be thinking, but personally, I've realized lately that my own past response in support of various board members has been interpreted as a matter of siding-up. I was ignorant. It has never been my intention to "side up" with anyone or against anyone, but only to acknowledge when someone states the truth as I see it.

That said, I would like to formally declare my support to you ... not that I am in agreement with your perspective re: bullying, but I am in agreement with your need to protect yourself from harm. I'm sorry that you feel at risk in this place, but I can relate to that feeling. This is risky business with plenty of unknown factors and so much room for misunderstanding. I have felt bullied here and I've  fought the urge to retreat, but there has always been enough encouragement and enough positive growth to cause me to not allow the negative to overcome. At this point, I have come to the conclusion that bullying is often in the eye/ear of the beholder/listener. I don't expect you to come to that same conclusion, but I hope that you will allow for the possibility that as people who have been deeply wounded, we often can be our own worst enemy. Just getting a glimpse of that can make all the difference, I think. A few years ago, I would have interpreted any one who expressed strong views as a bully, simply because I was so afraid to have any strong views of my own, let alone express them. I've recognized more and more lately that I have some serious issues with women who (from my perspective) try to exert authority in a corrective, disciplinary (I like Write's word... sanctimonious) sort of tone. They may not even really have that tone, but if it's what I hear, that's it for me. I'm not saying that these are some of your issues... just giving examples of some of the things I'm now aware of in myself that are changing my reactions to others. And then there's the bottom line... please understand, I'm not trying to dismiss your concerns, but I've come to this point and whether it's a good outlook or a bad one, it's where I am....  my bottom line is, So What?? So what if there are bullies in the area. I don't have to give them my lunch money. I don't have to carry their books. I don't have to read their posts. I don't have to paint a B on their forehead. I can walk within my own safety zone, type there, read there, rest in peace there, and live and let live.

   I understand that your safety zone requires you to eliminate exposure. Mine did, too, for most of my life. I'm saying these things because I wanted you to know that I didn't see how it could ever change for me, and yet it's changing. I'm not so frightened. I no longer have that drive to run. By the way, as that urge to flee began to ease, the urge to expose the villain moved in, but only for awhile. That phase was short-lived, because someone talked with me the way I'm trying to talk with you. I couldn't respond to you before, LoH, because I wasn't where I am now. That's how quickly it can change, I believe, once a person stops trying to outrun the shadows and shines a little light into the gloom. I only hope this brings you some hope.

With love,
Hope
Title: Re: On Bullying
Post by: reallyME on August 08, 2006, 09:01:05 AM
CH:
Quote
So What?? So what if there are bullies in the area. I don't have to give them my lunch money. I don't have to carry their books. I don't have to read their posts. I don't have to paint a B on their forehead. I can walk within my own safety zone, type there, read there, rest in peace there, and live and let live.


and THIS is how you break the cycle of dependency and/or codependency, and it has been my point from the moment I got on this board as well.  It should not matter as adults, what other people do or say, when you feel secure in yourself.  If you are in a place where you are still in physical danger and can get out, but you stay, that is a bad choice on your part.  If you can't get out, then may GOD move His hand to get you out.  No matter what, though, it is not a healthy choice to take on upsetment from other people's actions, and if a person is doing so, then therapy is needed until they are healthier and stronger.

~Laura
Title: Re: On Bullying
Post by: moonlight52 on August 08, 2006, 10:22:35 AM
BULLYING
I guess it is different things to different people .

Some think its only physical.Some think of hurting biting words.

Of course on the board its words.Sarcasm.etc.Below the belt stuff.

Unnecessary hurtful comments not needed to make a point.

It would be good  not to do word bullying.I think everyone would agree .

Or maybe we need to talk about what the rules of conflict are?
MOON
Title: Re: On Bullying
Post by: penelope on August 08, 2006, 01:43:30 PM
hi moon,

I am in favor of talking about that.  Having read the Rules of Conflict doesn't mean I understand them.  I would hate to think I'm bullying and can't see it.  I need to talk more in order to understand this.

A lot of good ideas were thrown out, then I think people got scared to talk about them.  Some points that were brought up:

1.  what constitutes sarcasm? (anyone can answer if they like)
2.  how does it feel to be reacted to with sarcasm?
3.  are bullying words only those that start with "you" phrases and include words like "always" "never" "here we go again" and that just sound absolute?
4.  what are the elements of passive aggressive bullying?
5.  should one wait for an invitation before giving advice?  Is it bullying otherwise?
6. etc

pb
Title: Re: On Bullying
Post by: reallyME on August 08, 2006, 04:48:58 PM
Quote
Penelope:

1.  what constitutes sarcasm? (anyone can answer if they like)

using an answer so as to make the other person to feel like they are stupid.  Sometimes sarcasm is fun and understood that it's just playing around...for instance, my entire family constantly "ribs" each other about things, and we know better than to get all bent out of shape because of it.  In a healthy, balanced situation, I believe sarcasm is actually part of general humor.

Sitcoms use sarcasm...it's a sort of way of saying "duhhhhhhhhh" as in, "of COURSE, dingbat"  to insinuate that something obvious has occurred but the person didn't catch on.

I have very little problem with sarcasm, if it's done in a funny way that I can join in and laugh at.  If it's used as an attack weapon, different story, and I WILL be up in arms, when not yielded to the Holy Spirit in my life.

Quote
2.  how does it feel to be reacted to with sarcasm?

As I said, it depends on the motive of the sarcastic one.  Now, to people abused by N's, of course, sarcasm will all be taken offensively.  They have learned that sarcastic remarks are there to belittle them as children or even adults.  Sarcasm with an n'istically abused adult-child, will be perceived as a LITERAL thing and thus offend them, from what I've witnessed.  Same with my avoidant PD friends...sarcasm will just make them feel attacked and ridiculed and give them another reason for avoiding new situations or people.

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3.  are bullying words only those that start with "you" phrases and include words like "always" "never" "here we go again" and that just sound absolute?

No.  Bullying can be any sort of words that intimidate another person PURPOSELY.  If domineering over someone is understood by BOTH PARTIES to be joking, then no harm done.



Quote
4.  what are the elements of passive aggressive bullying?

Not sure, but I have seen passive aggressive behavior, where I was told by a minister that I was an assistant to, to keep people away from her because she was busy, and then in the end, the minister accused me of driving all her friends away.

Quote
5.  should one wait for an invitation before giving advice?  Is it bullying otherwise?

I think if one is listening to a convo on a public forum, that person has every right to comment.  If it involves two or more other people and the situation does not concern the one, the one is best staying OUT of it.
Title: Re: On Bullying
Post by: pennyplant on August 08, 2006, 04:53:03 PM
1.  what constitutes sarcasm? (anyone can answer if they like)

Hi pb,

My hope my ideas on sarcasm will be helpful.  I have used sarcasm all my life, and it hasn't worked, and I have promised myself to stop using it.  So, maybe what I am able to share might be a contribution to this part of it.

It is hard for me to quote examples of my own sarcasm because I use it less and less but if some of my own examples come to mind I'll list them.  For me it is easier not to do it in writing because in person I use tone of voice and facial expression along with words.

These are the feelings I have when I use it:  fear, frustration and anger.  It makes me feel powerful when I'm feeling backed into a corner.  So, it is beneficial to me to use it during arguments or when accused of something.

I used sarcasm everyday when I was raising my oldest son.  One example I remember:  he was having another serious problem due to depression and I was frantically trying to get him to confide in me what was going on.  (In my mind, right now, I'm thinking, "yeah, that was the way to make him comfortable confiding in me, be frantic, beg him to talk, threaten him"--right there is an example of sarcasm to myself and it shows I still don't value myself as well as I should).  As he clammed up more and more and the tension grew and grew I said, "Well, then I guess we'll talk about it in a few years when we're both on Oprah!"  (You know, on one of her confessional shows where she tries to fix a broken family relationship, don't know if she still does that kind of show anymore.)

That display of mine was kind of an awakening moment.  He was probably 12 or 13 when I said that to him.  And that was a common occurance between us.  All those years.  He learned to be sarcastic back to me, too.  We used it against each other.  But I was the adult.  I should never have stooped to that tactic.  But it was a tactic born of fear and desperation.  I had no idea what to do as a parent.  Other than try to control him.  That is one of the things I was trying to accomplish by using sarcasm.  I was trying to control him when I felt completely out of control.

I learned it from my parents.  My father would say things like, "Way to go, Silas" if someone did something that annoyed him.  He would say the word, "Cute!", in a tone of disgust, if he meant he thought it was something stupid.  He would imitate us if we cried about something or tattled on each other or tried to get him to step into a fight of ours.  If I felt humiliated or hurt my mother would point and laugh (maybe a stretch to define this as sarcasm, but laughing should be reserved for something that is funny, so maybe because it is the opposite reaction to what should have been said, that could fit under sarcasm.)  Sarcastic comments that I make are usually words that are the opposite of what is really meant.  "Oh, great!"  When it is something that is not great at all but really making me mad.  Exaggerating when I have made a mistake that someone comments on, like "I do this all the time because I like making all this extra work for myself--it keeps me busy and you know how I like to be busy."

There are times when everybody is using sarcasm, such as at work when there is a crisis and people are blowing off steam.  It is fun for the participants to try to top each other with more and more ironic, sarcastic comments.  But I bet the quieter workers, we have some who you can barely hear when they are speaking directly to you, might think all the sarcasm is making the stressful situation even worse since the problem itself hasn't gone away and now noise and unhelpful comments have been added to the atmosphere.  At work, I've seen this one in action.  The people not in on the sarcasm party just can't wait to get out of the room.  It distracts them from doing an already difficult job.

Here is a common one with people I know.  If you say something that they already knew (but you're not a mind reader and thought you were contributing to the conversation) they will reply with, "Ya think?!?"  That one has been said to me a couple of times and I felt like I had said something dumb and then felt like defending myself.  My reply was along the lines of, I have never met so and so before and now understand what people have been saying about him.  But I felt defensive at the time.  I guess my "mind reader" comment above is also sarcasm.  It really is a habitual method of communication for me.

What I am trying now in order to stop using sarcasm is to make sure that each thing I say is truly what I mean.  Is there any possible way I might regret what I'm planning to say?  Is it factual?  Does it make sense?  Does it reveal my true feelings, the ones behind the hurt and anger?  I try to imagine if the words will still be true tomorrow or a year from now.  That's why it's much easier in writing, for example in an email.   I have time to think and consider and read it back to myself.  I hope that this practice in my correspondence and here on the board is translating to new habits for when I speak to someone in person.  That is taking longer for sure.  But it is on my mind often when I communicate.  I do use it less and less in person.

I think that learning to communicate in a way that avoids sarcasm leads to truer and more trustworthy communucation.

Pennyplant
Title: Re: On Bullying
Post by: reallyME on August 08, 2006, 05:09:04 PM
Life would be boring without some sarcasm and humor.  I wouldn't want to be on the earth without it.
Title: Re: On Bullying
Post by: pennyplant on August 08, 2006, 05:19:23 PM
RM, I want to learn to appreciate "boring"!  And I'm not kidding on that one.  I've always feared being boring.  That fear has led me to some stupid behavior.  Not acting out, but being so nervous and worried about being boring that I've made people uncomfortable and less interested in me.  Self-fulfilling prophesy!!

Sometimes the quiet times are when I have been able to be in tune with my companion and the environment.  Sometimes the quiet times are when insights and good ideas have finally come to the surface for me.

Pennyplant
Title: Re: On Bullying
Post by: reallyME on August 08, 2006, 06:26:49 PM
I like these insights Pennyplant.  SOlace is a good thing too.  You are right and I thank you for reminding me.

~Laura
Title: Re: On Bullying
Post by: jordanspeeps on August 08, 2006, 07:45:05 PM
To add to the 'what is sarcasm?' discussion:

I realize the bite that sarcasm holds and, in normal day to day life, I try to withhold the use of it.  It is however, my third language, (the first being the king's English and the second being my African-American pidgin (plantation) language, or Black English or just plain broken English if you'd like to look at it that way :lol:).  To me sarcasm was a gift of grammar that allowed me to 1.) be sassy-mouthed with my Nmom and Nteachers without them really knowing it, [N's never really 'get' sarcasm, I think], 2.) let off steam without blowing my stack, and 3.) find the coolest friends.  For me, sarcasm breaks the ice.  If you can catch one of my quick sarcastic cracks and better yet, toss another zinger right back at me, we're friends for life. The drier and wittier, the better.  I do understand that sarcasm can be hurtful, especially when the receiving end was or is the victim of a verbal abuser.  People who don't love sarcasm deserve respect for that.  I do, however, have a pretty dark-side to some of my humor, so I think the world of sarcasm when it's used in the context of comedy and lightheartedness.  I do have to say that I slip it in sometimes, though, when someone is particularly on my nerves.

I love how in the movie, "40 year old Virgin" the main character and his teenage co-worker, talk to each other in the language of sarcasm. The 40-year old virgin guy, who I thought was a pretty evolved human for the record, told the kid, "Your sarcasm is not lost on me, in fact, it is a language I know and speak very well." There was that moment of understanding that closed the generation gap between the two. I don't think it always has to be so bad, sarcasm.  However, you can definitely use it as a vicious weapon.  I know I've pulled it out of my (arse)nal in the past, and I really try to watch it these days.  But sometimes I can't help it, I just love to play with words!!! :P

See ya later guys
Tiffany
Title: Re: On Bullying
Post by: jordanspeeps on August 08, 2006, 07:57:56 PM
Sorry Loh for participating in the high-jack. And I don't think we met, properly. It's great to meet you and I look forward to future postings with you.  I hope it's okay that we went off on the sarcasm tangent?  If not, I apologize for that.


Tiff
Title: Re: On Bullying
Post by: Stormchild on August 08, 2006, 08:20:33 PM
Sarchasm - the gap opened between people when one deliberately uses wit to wound the other [and pretends it's about being funny].
Title: Re: On Bullying
Post by: movinon on August 08, 2006, 08:31:08 PM
There is nothing funny about sarchasm - it's MEAN

Loving people can be fun and funny without hurting others.

Movinon
Title: Re: On Bullying
Post by: Stormchild on August 08, 2006, 08:32:25 PM
Sorry, movinon. I didn't intend to hit a nerve. Would you like me to delete that post?
Title: Re: On Bullying
Post by: movinon on August 08, 2006, 08:34:36 PM
No Storm,

You didn't hit a nerve, but I appreciate your offer and openness.

Movinon
Title: Re: On Bullying
Post by: moonlight52 on August 08, 2006, 09:23:31 PM
WHEN AND WHY HAS THIS PLACE BECOME SO UNKIND
Title: Re: On Bullying
Post by: penelope on August 08, 2006, 09:44:09 PM
hi moon,

I hope your stitches aren't itchy still.  How did the appointment go?

thinking about you (((((((((((((((((((moon)))))))))))))))))))))

pb
Title: Re: On Bullying
Post by: lightofheart on August 08, 2006, 09:45:52 PM
Hi Pennyplant,

Congratulations, and thank you! You're our first poster; now I've met my helpful-to-at-least one person quota.  :D

That must have been really hard, with neighborhood bullies on top of your sister. Did you have another good escape outlet besides your fortune-telling days? Wish I could turn back time and give you that drum set, PP. Plus new neighbors.

You make a good point; there are gut responses and then there are gut responses...as in, excuse me, is that your bile on the floor? I like what you said about keeping your dignity, PP. Made me realize what an underused word dignity is. Why is that? Old-fashioned word in the cell-phone era? Loss of dignity=shamefest, imho. I talk through my teeth versus yelling when I'm mad, so my ding-ding of pattern recognition is gritting my teeth...that's when I know I need to get a grip or dignity is headed for a fall.

One day I hope to be so enlightened that I don't cringe over my lowest past dignity losses, the true wallows. Not there yet.

You're welcome for the gift (((Pennyplant))). Thanks for kicking in with a little more of your story.
Title: Re: On Bullying
Post by: lightofheart on August 08, 2006, 09:53:48 PM
(((Moon)))

I'm so glad you're still posting!

I agree, biting words, also below the belt stuff. I think that's a good way to describe it.

Yes, different for everyone, but I think you know how it feels if it's bullying.

I used to know when my boss (ex-boss, HA!) was trying to bully someone at a meeting, 'cause I could feel my cheeks turn red.

 :shock:

LoH



Title: Re: On Bullying
Post by: moonlight52 on August 08, 2006, 10:06:58 PM
HI LIGHT , I was talking about conflict thinking all was OK with everyone and then I think I got pounced on.
I do believe that there is a better way kindness. But this deliberate cruelty I had so much too much
I do not understand why anyone would want to bully
thanks
I AM OK YOU MAKE ME LAUGH  :D :D :D

MoonLight
Title: Re: On Bullying
Post by: lightofheart on August 08, 2006, 11:12:17 PM
Dear Hope,

Well, for what it's worth I hope you're done feeling silly. I think it's good of you to make the effort to declare support, especially if your perspective on bullying is different. Just to clarify, when I said I didn't feel safe to post here I didn't mean 'safe' emotionally, or that anyone could or would harm me here, I meant unsafe to speak. Personally, I need trust and mutual respect to speak freely about the kind of personal issues discussed here. Disagreement is fine; disparagement and belittling, imho, are not.

I do agree that bullying is sometimes in the eye of the beholder. I also think some behavior, verbally, is just plain bullying. I also agree, personally, that I can be my own worst enemy, absolutely the worst. But I'm very comfortable that with my perspective on bullying, which feels healthy and respect-based. Strong views don't bother me, Hope, neither do assertive people.

Quote
my bottom line is, So What?? So what if there are bullies in the area. I don't have to give them my lunch money. I don't have to carry their books. I don't have to read their posts. I don't have to paint a B on their forehead. I can walk within my own safety zone, type there, read there, rest in peace there, and live and let live.

The so what, for me at least, is that I don't have a live and let live attitude about bullying. I don't think it's okay, whomever the target is. As a behavior pattern, I think it's abusive. I'm not looking to change my attitude, Hope. I'm not afraid of verbal bullying; I just don't want to have intimate conversations with people who habitually bully others. It's not a phase. Believe me, I've had more than enough personal experience with bullying to know my own mind. It's not a matter of outrunning shadows or gloom; it's a matter of keeping a healthy distance, when possible, from hostile people with poor impulse control and boundaries.

I really appreciate you trying to help, Hope, but I think you've mistaken my frame of mind, especially re. hope. I'm a sunny-side-up optimist...I just happen to be an optimist who firmly believes chronic bullying really sucks and causes a lot of damage in the world.

Best to you,
LoH
Title: Re: On Bullying
Post by: Certain Hope on August 08, 2006, 11:25:16 PM
Dear LoH,

    Yes, I'm done feeling silly, thanks... I can see now that I definitely did misunderstand you. I'd thought that the perception of behavior as bullying was an emotional response and therefore based on wounded feelings. It never occurred to me that it was anything else. Thank you for explaining. I can see that your mind is firmly set and I wish you the best always, as well.

With love,
Hope
Title: Re: On Bullying
Post by: lightofheart on August 08, 2006, 11:40:27 PM
Hi Laura,

I agree with you that Hope made a good point about the choices we get to make around bullying. Our lunch money is ours.

Quote
and THIS is how you break the cycle of dependency and/or codependency, and it has been my point from the moment I got on this board as well.  It should not matter as adults, what other people do or say, when you feel secure in yourself.  If you are in a place where you are still in physical danger and can get out, but you stay, that is a bad choice on your part.  If you can't get out, then may GOD move His hand to get you out.  No matter what, though, it is not a healthy choice to take on upsetment from other people's actions, and if a person is doing so, then therapy is needed until they are healthier and stronger.
On the one hand, I agree that if you're secure in yourself, there's nothing anyone can say here that will change your opinion of you...which really, is the only one that matters. On the other hand, words can hurt, and I don't think that means co-dependence.

Also, what about less secure people, don't their feelings count? I don't mean simple disagreement (anyone who can't stand to be disagreed with should probably avoid message boards of any kind), I mean picking someone apart with insulting language, or attacking them personally, or their motives or intentions. And what about all the healthy, strong people you mention. Even the strongest, healthiest people in the world have hard days, exhausted days, days when something awful's just happened. Days when they might feel less tough. A little less resistant to a tongue-lashing here, when maybe all they came here looking for that day was a little support and/or encouragement. Is that too  much ask, on the Voicelessness and Emotional Survival Message Board?

Separate of feeling hurt personally, I think, is the general intimidation factor. Some people just don't want to argue or defend themselves at length whenever they express an opinion that someone who is less respectful in their manner disagrees with.

I'm glad you posted, RM, and I'm sorry I didn't get back to everyone here earlier; I had a thing or two to work out in my head.

Best,
LoH

Title: Re: On Bullying
Post by: reallyME on August 08, 2006, 11:50:15 PM
Storm,

it IS about being funny, when both parties understand that they are PLAYING AROUND.  I realize that those who went through abuse where this was used, will equate it as ALL BLACK/NO WHITE, but that is just not realistic thinking.

~Laura
Title: Re: On Bullying
Post by: lightofheart on August 09, 2006, 09:24:19 AM
Hi Penelope,

It's very good to hear from you here. These are good ideas, imho, some excellent ones. Thanks for recirculating 'em for another air out.  :D

Quote
A lot of good ideas were thrown out, then I think people got scared to talk about them.  Some points that were brought up:

1.  what constitutes sarcasm? (anyone can answer if they like)
2.  how does it feel to be reacted to with sarcasm?

Imho, there are degrees of sarcasm. For instance, self-mocking sarcasm (and, within that category, different types; from gentle self-mocking to really going after yourself) where you're your own target, as opposed to belittling sarcasm directed at someone else. Sometimes sarcasm isn't pointed at any people at all and that can feel different than laughing at someone sarcasm.

I think the context, audience, and the trust (or lack of) shared by the people who sarcasm passes between has much to do with how it feels. Perceived intent, subjective as it is, is big. Kick-someone-when-they're down sarcasm, to me, feels like a low blow and I cringe when I perceive it. For instance, someone has just fallen down in public, or goofed up, or just admitted to feeling hurt or or any kind of vulnerability. Implicit in this type, to me, is a lack of compassion, in the moment. Not being able to see, There but for the grace of God...,and using someone else's misfortune as an opportunity for a cheap laugh or to vent some bitterness.

I saw someone kick someone this way with sarcasm, repeatedly; an obviously scared guy who was giving a public speech, and the sarcasm-flinger got many laughs. It sickened me. The speaker was shaking, red-faced and looked ready to run out of the room. The facilitator did nothing, so I finally said, 'Excuse me, would it be possible to ask those same questions without the sarcasm? I'm having a hard time hearing beyond it, especially with all the laughing.' Yikes, did it get quiet. I really got some looks. But it stopped.

Quote
3.  are bullying words only those that start with "you" phrases and include words like "always" "never" "here we go again" and that just sound absolute?

Personally, I don't think bullying speech has to contain absolutes. For instance, I think piling up hostile or negative accusations can be an act of bullying. Telling someone they always do something is inflammatory, imho; nobody always does anything (short of eating and breathing and sleeping, hopefully) so, imho, the accuser has started from a point of unfairness.The good rule of thumb there, before speaking, I think, is to apply the Golden Rule; would you like someone to say that to you?

Quote
4.  what are the elements of passive aggressive bullying?
Ooh, this one's tricky, Penelope, don't you think? Especially, imho, if you wander into someone else's intentions. For me, I think if there's any positive way to take it, or a point of clarification I can ask for that might help, or if whatever has been said is offered respectfully--even if the other person is voicing disagreement or objection or a pointed question--I wouldn't want to call it bullying.

Quote
5.  should one wait for an invitation before giving advice?  Is it bullying otherwise?

You've given me the giggles here, Penelope...'cause our open door policy on advice here is pretty darn casual, isn't it? I think, again, intent comes into play, and I try to give someone the benefit of the doubt as to coming from a good place whenever possible. As a listener, I hear "This is what I did/worked for me/what I might try in your shoes" differently than "You should do____". Imho, in and of itself, being told to do something even assertively (unless it's go $#*& in your hat or the like) doesn't rise to bullying. Pair it with accusations or critical comments about the other person or their behavior or judgment, and then it'd feel different. That's just my view, 'cause I feel free  say, 'No, I don't think so, thanks for the suggestion, though.' Personally, I don't read speaking from one's experience as advice, necessarily; just offering up one possibility based on direct experience.

I try to stick to my own experience, or offer up possibilities/questions that might help the other person identify or articulate what they already know and feel. 'Cause I think it's usually just a matter of digging. A kind person here helped me that way yesterday and it just rocked my little world...because it felt like a complete and natural resolution, which isn't always this case with advice.

Didn't mean to go on quite so long, Penelope. You put out some good stuff, got me a thinking. Plus, I see you stretching all your good and insightful communications muscles lately and I really want to honor that, 'cause I think you worked hard to share all this.

Best to you,
LoH

Title: Re: On Bullying
Post by: Healing&Hopeful on August 09, 2006, 09:46:24 AM
The facilitator did nothing, so I finally said, 'Excuse me, would it be possible to ask those same questions without the sarcasm? I'm having a hard time hearing beyond it, especially with all the laughing.' Yikes, did it get quiet. I really got some looks. But it stopped.

Wow, LoH.... good for you!  I don't think I'd have been brave enough to say this. xx
Title: Re: On Bullying
Post by: Certain Hope on August 09, 2006, 10:23:26 AM
Pb,

 Since you brought up some very specific questions re: bullying, I've been doing alot of reading on the topic. I'm pasting this example of bullying behavior here because it's something to which I really related. This has happened to me and when it hits you out of the blue I know how it can leave you just shaking your head in wonderment.

Hope

The bully at work:

Melinda*, a well-dressed woman in her 40's, worked as a manager for a large company. She was on excellent terms with her superiors and friendly towards the majority of her co-workers.
But when Tina*, a bright, attractive woman in her late 20's, began working in the office, the darker side of Melinda's nature appeared
Within days of Tina's employment, Melinda began to monitor Tina's every move, and kept detailed records of her coming and going's from the office - even timing her toilet breaks.
Melinda was highly critical of Tina's work, and would set her up to fail by not giving her the information she needed to complete a task.
At meetings and in the lunch room, Melinda would snort in derision, roll her eyes, or smirk at colleagues when Tina put forward her ideas.
As the months went by, Melinda spread untrue rumours about Tina's sexual orientation, and made unflattering remarks about everything from her hairstyle to the clothes she wore.
Urged by concerned friends, Tina eventually approached senior management about Melinda's bullying, only to be told that Melinda was a valued, long-time employee, and that the problem was obviously a clash of personalities.
Humiliated and depressed, Tina left her job.

The bully at home:

Because Melinda's household ran better if she got her own way, her husband and children learnt to accept that she ran the show.
Although Melinda spread unkind rumours about an attractive, successful sister-in-law, she was charming while she did it, giving relatives the impression she was an innocent bystander to family matters.
A controlling mother who dominated her husband, Melinda was kind to her children's partners - as long as they accepted her dominance. She wrecked havoc in her children's relationships if her position was challenged.


"Bullies like Melinda cold-bloodedly attempt to undo another person as part of their plan to retain popularity and power.

"Bullies are usually have an arrogant, inflated view of themselves, so can be threatened by anyone who is likeable, well qualified or attractive. They are prepared to intimidate, humiliate or emotionally destroy another person in order to get what they want.

"Some bullies don't look like they need to intimidate another person - like Melinda, they can be well presented and charming. But the more toxic bullies are, the more difficult they are to pick. - they're very good at covering their trails.

"Other bullies target people who are less articulate, of a different religion, lack social skills, are overweight, or show signs of anxiety.

"If a target takes their problem to senior management, they can be fobbed off as over-reacting - people like Melinda work hard at endearing themselves with their superiors.

"Surveys show that bullying is becoming a major cause of workplace stress, and is widely recognised as an important health issue. A company where bullying is rife is characterised by high staff turnover, excessive sick leave or stress-related compensation leave."


 
Title: Re: On Bullying
Post by: lightofheart on August 09, 2006, 02:31:11 PM
Hiya Tiffany,

It's great to meet you, too, and thanks for starting the introductions. Yes We shall meeet again, as they say in the movies.

I think you made an excellent point about how different sarcasm, or any dark humor, can go over/feel different depending on the people involved and its lightheartedness. I agree about the ice-breaker potential. I live in an area where people are notoriously standoffish to newcomers...meaning any time I join a new group there's that long moment when I first walk in the door and all conversation stops, everyone gapes. That's awkward for me, not enjoying being the center of attention. But, thankfully, wry humor is almost always appreciated here, so sometimes just a touch of self-mockery: 1) makes me feel a little less conspicuous; and 2) is gentle proof that, unknown scary newcomer from away that I am (gasp!), at least I have a sense of humor. Or shoot for one.

I've found what you said about new friends true, too: sometimes just that one indicator about who you are--usually a sign that you're receptive to others' humor, as well, and at least somewhat comfortable with yourself--can really help launch a friendship.
I go into cringe mode when I overstep on this one..then apologize profusely, apologies being part of the glue of communications.

Speaking of which, gosh, it's kind and conscientious of you to apologize, but no need/worries about hijacking. I don't see a thread as mine to direct. I think they take on a life of their own and belong to whomever chimes in. All I did was throw the ball in the air.

Best to you, Tiffany,
LoH
Title: Re: On Bullying
Post by: portia guest on August 09, 2006, 02:36:38 PM
Hi Light of Heart, thank you for the following because it's easier for me if I wait for you to speak clearly than try to do it myself!  8)

I don't have a live and let live attitude about bullying. I don't think it's okay, whomever the target is.
I completely agree with you above. Absolutely. I know sometimes it is difficult to judge when is it bullying, and when is it my own perception, but there are lines which are crossed to me, which make it pretty obvious. I trust myself more these days.

I'm not afraid of verbal bullying; I just don't want to have intimate conversations with people who habitually bully others.

Ditto. Not that I have intimate conversations with more than a handful of people, but some others - I met one the other day, a stranger who spooked me - I don't even display emotion on my face. I guess I'm learning. Thanks for saying what I was thinking :D.

Title: Re: On Bullying
Post by: movinon on August 09, 2006, 03:04:02 PM
I have a proposal - Why is sarcasm NEEDED on this board.  Why not cut it out all-together?  I judge that some are using "sarcasm" as a way to be passive-agressive - a catch-phrase to hide behind.

I think most here will agree that whatever definition you want to put to sarcasm, "supportive" would not be one of them.  Because of this I do not feel "safe" to share with the board what's going on in my life or to be vulnerable beacuse I am still seeing the same meanness here.  I am very grateful that I have a support group here where I can be vulnerable, but I feel for those that come here looking for REAL support.

So how about it?  Leave the sarcasm for face-to-face interactions?

LOH - CONGRATULATIONS!!!!!!!!!  At the risk of sounding like a mother hen, I am SOOOO PROUD of you for standing up like you did.  Your courage is inspiring!

Movinon
Title: Re: On Bullying
Post by: pennyplant on August 09, 2006, 04:37:13 PM
That must have been really hard, with neighborhood bullies on top of your sister. Did you have another good escape outlet besides your fortune-telling days? Wish I could turn back time and give you that drum set, PP. Plus new neighbors.

Yes, it was hard.  I always thought that I could handle difficulties at home if school/neighborhood had gone well, or vice versa.  But for it to be happening in both places--well, no wonder I felt like just fleeing so often.  There was no truly safe haven, no real respite.  Remember in Forest Gump when the little girl prays, "Dear God, please make me a bird, so I can fly far, far, far away."  Wings would have been good!!!!

What I did do was pin my hopes on the future being better.  When I grow up.....  When I get married......  When I graduate college.....  Having hope got me through it.

Of course, growing up didn't fix anything either!  Was that ever a rude awakening!

Only now do I feel like I'm making real progress in life.  I'm finally seeing the real causes and effects and understanding that my real power to improve my life is inside of me.  And I will always believe that this place here has made the real difference.  It is like I found a lost set of keys and they actually fit into the right locks.

"helpful to at least one person quota"--that's a worthy goal!  Very do-able, imho!

Pennyplant
Title: Re: On Bullying
Post by: lightofheart on August 09, 2006, 05:28:43 PM
Hi Stormy,

Thank you bringing that defnition of sarchasm here.

That's a kind of sarcasm I'd never put my finger on before...and especially, insidious, it sounds like, because the utilizer would be most likely to do in front of an audience. Taking advantage of the fact that it seems like, in a group, there's a good chance someone will be willing to laugh so long as the target's not them. Or as long as the sarchasm-er can pass it off as just joking.

On the other end of the kindness spectrum, I really appreciated your offer to Movinon to delete that post.

Inspiring modeling, imho, about the power of choosing kindness over defensiveness. Pretty self-actualized behavior all around.

Given the conversation, I got a nice warm feeling over the way both of you chose to handle it.
 
Best,
LoH
Title: Re: On Bullying
Post by: lightofheart on August 09, 2006, 06:18:19 PM
Thanks for the compliment, H&H.

Well, I wish I could say I felt brave when I spoke up, but it wasn't anthing so noble. I just couldn't not say it.

I think I suffer from a form of foot-in-mouth disease when it comes to people humiliating others in public, especially if they keep at it. The foam starts to bubble up, I can't close my throat, and...boom, out it comes.

As to brave, I remember you writing about testifying for your friend in court, aginst her angry ex; that sounded pretty brave to me.

Best to you,
LoH
Title: Re: On Bullying
Post by: jordanspeeps on August 09, 2006, 07:13:37 PM
Two quick comments:

To all:

If we, as a group, agree that sarcasm has no place on this message board, then I will be willing to completely prohibit my use of it, certainly. 

and,
Is there a consensus that this place is a support group?  When I joined, I was under the impression that here's a place where you could no longer be voiceless, a place where you could express yourself, tell your story, listen to the stories of others, and let your voice be heard, whatever it sounded like.  Is it a pre-requisite that we understand and behave in the manner of a support group? (I've never been to one, actually).  Just curious.

Later
Tiffany
Title: Re: On Bullying
Post by: lightofheart on August 09, 2006, 07:28:39 PM
Hi Tiffany,

Quote
When I joined, I was under the impression that here's a place where you could no longer be voiceless, a place where you could express yourself, tell your story, listen to the stories of others, and let your voice be heard, whatever it sounded like.  Is it a pre-requisite that we understand and behave in the manner of a support group? (I've never been to one, actually).  Just curious.

What you've said here is my impression too. That VESMB is a message/info board rather than a support group.I don't think there are any pre-requisites about behaving supportively, per se. The only rules I've heard from Dr. G so far (I haven't been here long) had to do with harrassing behavior, doing/writing anything illegal, and hate speech. Does anyone know of any others?

Title: Re: On Bullying
Post by: pennyplant on August 09, 2006, 07:34:11 PM
Hi Tiffany,

I'm not sure if consensus is possible here.  My point of view is this:  Relationships of some type are possible here.  I am aiming for healthy relationships.  This means that I want to take into consideration the other person's feelings when I have dealings with someone.  At the same time I'm learning not to lose myself in that relationship.  It does seem to me that some kind of balance is possible in these relationships.

If several people continue to tell me that I need to look at some part of myself--then I think I better look at it.  So far, I haven't received a lot of that kind of feedback.  I'm not sure if I am off-putting here as I tend to be in real life (I think people can't tell easily what is going on with me and some people feel like they might be "bothering" me) or if I'm just beginning to have some success in some of my problem areas.  I do know for sure that I don't bring up a problem area of mine until I'm open to working on it and hearing the opinion of others.

I'm just not going to keep doing something if more than one person brings it to my attention more than one time.  It just seems inconsiderate to me.  This being an on-line community, well it's still a community, it's still people out there.  My "voice" is not more important than someone else's pain.  Their pain is not more important than my "voice".  There's got to be some give and take.  Everyone needs a turn once in a while.  These are probably core beliefs of mine.

PP
Title: Re: On Bullying
Post by: jordanspeeps on August 09, 2006, 08:31:40 PM
Sarcasm
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Sarcasm is sneering, jesting, or mocking a person, situation or thing. It is often used in a humorous or ironic manner and is expressed through vocal intonations such as over-emphasizing the actual statement or particular words

Origins
The word comes from the late Latin word, sarcasmus, which, in turn, comes from the Greek sarkasmos, from sarkazein - to bite the lips in rage,- from sarx, sark-, flesh - the root word literally means "to cut a piece of flesh (from the targeted person)."
Sarcasm is proverbially described as "the lowest form of humour but the highest form of wit" (a quotation sometimes ascribed incorrectly to Oscar Wilde, but untraceable).

Usage
Sarcasm and irony are often confused for each other in popular discourse. Irony generally refers to the literal meaning and the intended meaning of the words uttered being different (for example: saying "Smart move!" after a friend has done something stupid); while sarcasm refers to the mocking intent of the utterance.
It is possible to be ironic without being sarcastic, and to be sarcastic without being ironic. For example, one can make a statement which, while sarcastic, is the same as (not the opposite of) the literal thought expressed: No, believe it or not, I can't read your mind!
Sarcasm and irony are also regularly confused with cynicism, which in common use is seen as a fundamental nihilistic attitude toward other people and life in general, whereas sarcasm can also be used to express positive ideas or sentiments.

Sarcasm in written communication
Because it is vocally oriented, sarcasm can be difficult to grasp in written form and is easily misinterpreted. To prevent this some people end sarcastic comments on the Internet with an emoticon, emphasize words with italics, bold, and/or underlining (e.g. That's just great), or surround them with a made-up markup language tag, e.g. *sarcasm*, <sarcasm> or <snicker>.
Another transformation of sarcasm into electronic media is only possible through written language. Using extremely poor typing in a sentence, one can indicate that the holder of a certain opinion is unintelligent or overly eager. For example: "steam rox0rz teh big one!11!eleven!1!" This written slang is especially popular in internet forums. Sarcasm is also achievable through written language by using capitalization to emphasize certain words. For example: "Well isn't THAT just fantastic".


Okay,
So with the above-mentioned defiinition in mind, (sorry guys, I AM a word nerd!) can we make some kind of agreement that we do not direct sarcasm from one board member to another, but still allow for the use of it when describing situations regarding our Ns or FOOs.  If I couldn't use sarcastic wit to get me through my storytelling, I'd feel a little handicapped, or worse censored. Which is okay, but then why would I return to this board, really?  Seriously, I'd like to lobby here that we not be constricted from the use of certain parts of speech entirely, and that we learn to take responsiblity for the things we do that are hurtful to one another, indirectly as well as directly.  I don't mean to be disagreeable, pennyplant, I just think we are adult enough here to know when we being passive-aggressive and should be accountable when this happens.  And there are many more ways to be passive-aggressive than to use sarcasm.  And not all sarcasm is hurtful.

My husband, another genius at sarcasm and irony, brought up a good point, when he said, something that's reflected above.  He said, I think what's bothersome moreso to people than sarcasm is any implied cynicism.  I'd have to agree with that.  It's that general negative attitude that grates against your nerve, right?. Yes, it is a form of rebellion to use sarcasm, I used it with my Nmom the way the root origins describe it, (from the Greek sarkasmos, from sarkazein - to bite the lips in rage,) and I almost considered it a survival technique.  So I guess that explains why I'm a little protective of it's use.   But again, if we are willing to veto the use of sarcasm here in all it's forms, I am definitely willing to oblige.  I get many opportunities to hone my sarcastic, (the funny, self-depricating kind, of course) skills with my hubby and school chums. But if it doesn't belong in cyberspace or in written context here, it just doesn't.

Take care all,
Tiff
Title: Re: On Bullying
Post by: pennyplant on August 09, 2006, 08:57:02 PM
Hi Tiffany,

Getting away from sarcasm is something I want to do for myself in order to be truer and more accurate about what I really feel and think.  Yes, there is the danger of censorship both for myself and for others.  I definitely don't want to go in the direction of censorship.

Well, I think I agree with your points that you've made here.

It is something more specific that I've been having trouble with.  A couple of people have posted comments which seem to imply that--now I realize I said something that hurt you, but they're your hurt feelings, and I need to say these words, and it is part of who I am, and you need to deal with it, I don't plan to change anything about myself, even if it steps on your toes, I'm not perfect, do you want me to be perfect just because your feelings are hurt.....

This is how some people's defense of their words sounds to me.  All the responsibility for personal growth seems to be getting put on the person who was hurt.  When I'm hurt it is very hard to just stop feeling that way.  Some of the defenses for sarcasm, or bluntness, seem to be dismissive.

In real life I don't speak the same way to all people I deal with.  There are levels of intimacy and sharing and comfort.

Maybe what I'm offering is that we don't have to make snap decisions about how to speak here.  It doesn't have to be a blanket policy.  Just take the time to get to know each other better.  (I guess I'm especially slow at getting to know people.)  For some it goes faster.  It seems like it can evolve as to who wants to be freer with vocabulary and content and style.  And people can teach themselves not to participate in conversations that clash with their style.  All types should have to give a little.  But this also will take getting to know each other better.

I think I do understand the benefits of sarcasm, it's kind of a bonding thing.  I've done it but not really been aware that was what was happening.  Sort of like in-jokes.  I'm slow with those too  :wink: .

There's a lot of directions this can go in.  I just think it is very important to try and take care with each other here on some level.

Pennyplant
Title: Re: On Bullying
Post by: lightofheart on August 09, 2006, 10:17:15 PM
HI Portia,

You're very welcome, I'm glad I stumbled onto what you were thinking...pretty cool when it happens. Like saving a step.

Crossing a line, you're the first to say it here, P., and you've hit it, imho. I think I always feel it when someone has crossed mine, wherever my line is just then (danger, danger, exploding safety net!) even if I can't exactly articulate what feels wrong in the moment.

I'm glad you're trusting yourself more, P. I bet it feels good, to have faith in you? You'll build on it, for sure, for every time you listen to yourself. Like with that stranger. I've gone the other way at times, ignored big qualms, and eventually, always wound up back at that first moment when part of me recoiled, then rationalized it. Wondering why I put my head up my bum when it was plain to see. Whoops!

Glad for your very happy. Me, too.  :D
Title: Re: On Bullying
Post by: lightofheart on August 09, 2006, 11:30:20 PM
Hiya Pennyplant and Tiffany (and Everyone),

At the risk of sounding like a serial agree-r, both your posts gave me big old yesses, thump the table and get goofy kind of yesses and, imho, carved out a lot of common ground. What you've both hit on (hear all those wonderful bells!) imho, is personal accountability, and how it can feel when it's missing from someone's behavior here. Maybe the bells are just in my head, 'cause, as a belief system, I'm just wild for personal accountability. I get ants in my pants just saying those words (positive ants, truly)

Tiffany

Quote
Seriously, I'd like to lobby here that we not be constricted from the use of certain parts of speech entirely, and that we learn to take responsibility for the things we do that are hurtful to one another, indirectly as well as directly.  I don't mean to be disagreeable, pennyplant, I just think we are adult enough here to know when we being passive-aggressive and should be accountable when this happens.  And there are many more ways to be passive-aggressive than to use sarcasm.  And not all sarcasm is hurtful.
Taking responsibility is the key, imho. For instance, some folks here never practice sarcasm and have made it clear they don't want any part of it. Some are cool with it, happy to share. Imho, it's incumbent on the practitioner of sarcasm to assess their audience around making a sarcastic comment. Short of knowing someone else's sense of humor, specifically, my view would be that I should take care in where I aim any sarcasm I set loose here. I'd feel compelled to apologize immediately and sincerely if my sarcasm went awry. Truth be told, I have put my foot in that particular poop once, apologized immediately, and hopefully learned a good lesson.

Pennyplant

Quote
It is something more specific that I've been having trouble with.  A couple of people have posted comments which seem to imply that--now I realize I said something that hurt you, but they're your hurt feelings, and I need to say these words, and it is part of who I am, and you need to deal with it, I don't plan to change anything about myself, even if it steps on your toes, I'm not perfect, do you want me to be perfect just because your feelings are hurt.....

This is how some people's defense of their words sounds to me.  All the responsibility for personal growth seems to be getting put on the person who was hurt.  When I'm hurt it is very hard to just stop feeling that way.  Some of the defenses for sarcasm, or bluntness, seem to be dismissive.

I share this perception 100%, and have trouble with it, too. I often see a double standard at work. Imho, I've read too many instances where one person chooses to pounce, verbally, based on what they assume a 2nd person's tone or intentions speak to--rather than taking their words at face value. The person jumping to conclusions blows up, makes accusations, then justifies it by blaming the 2nd person. So the 2nd person is blamed for both what the first person has assumed (aka, projection) as well as whatever toxicity the first person dished out. Zero accountability, and a double whammy. I call this looking through one-way glass.

Okay, I'm so tired I can't see straight. Just wanted to respond to y'all because what you've said resonates so much. Thanks!

Best to you, and G'night
LoH
Title: Re: On Bullying
Post by: lightofheart on August 10, 2006, 12:03:32 AM
Hi Movinon,

This is the part I worry about with sarcasm, the pause-giver, what you've said so well here:

Quote
I think most here will agree that whatever definition you want to put to sarcasm, "supportive" would not be one of them.  Because of this I do not feel "safe" to share with the board what's going on in my life or to be vulnerable because I am still seeing the same meanness here.  I am very grateful that I have a support group here where I can be vulnerable, but I feel for those that come here looking for REAL support.

So how about it?  Leave the sarcasm for face-to-face interactions?

I agree that sarcasm is less risky in person. People can hear vocal tones, see the smile or eye roll or that helps signify intent. What you've said about vulnerability is, IMHO, the saddest aspect of bullying here: it changes the nature of the conversation. And we're not talking about the orange crop or widgets. This is sensitive, deep-seated stuff. I always want to remember that, and respect that other folks here might be in a more fragile place. To honor the risk of speaking up, period. My broken record refrain is that we all have room to speak our minds without venting disrespect or belittling anyone. Not censorship, but simple respect.

Thank you, Movinon, you don't sound hennish, just kind. I don't know another way but to speak up, so I couldn't call it courage.

Best to you,
LoH
Title: Re: On Bullying
Post by: jordanspeeps on August 10, 2006, 10:03:27 AM
Hi everyone,

Quote
Short of knowing someone else's sense of humor, specifically, my view would be that I should take care in where I aim any sarcasm I set loose here. I'd feel compelled to apologize immediately and sincerely if my sarcasm went awry. Truth be told, I have put my foot in that particular poop once, apologized immediately, and hopefully learned a good lesson.

Ditto and thanks for thank, loh.  I'll save the sarcasm altogether and make an attempt to be more creative and direct in expressing myself. Sarcasm is one of my crutches and I don't wish for anyone to suffer any collateral damage as a result of my sometimes flippant postings.  I want us all to grow and make progress here, so I'll be happy to be more direct in my conversation.  Take care, pennyplant, movinon, and lightofheart.  It's great learning from you.

((((((((((to all)))))))))

Have a great day!
Tiff
Title: Re: On Bullying
Post by: moonlight52 on August 10, 2006, 11:40:32 AM
I GUESS ON THE BOARD WHAT I AM SEEING IS A LOT OF BEAUTY NOT BULLYING

M

Title: Re: On Bullying
Post by: lightofheart on August 10, 2006, 06:43:55 PM
(((Moon)))

Yes, there is no end of beauty here, you're so right.

So much more healthful/helpful pulling together than hurtful stuff, imho.

 :D

 

Title: Re: On Bullying
Post by: moonlight52 on August 10, 2006, 07:48:59 PM
HI LIGHT,

I met the dawn in silver sandaled feet
Oscar Wilde

MoonLight
JUST FEELIN  A LITTLE IRISH
WAIT CAN WE WRITE MUSHY POETRY ON A THREAD ABOUT BULLYING? YES ITS OK  8)
Title: Re: On Bullying
Post by: lightofheart on August 10, 2006, 10:45:09 PM
Hi Moon,

I say yes, always, to poetry. 'Tis in the blood, imho: the Irish way's long on heart-on-the-sleeve poetry & keeping the chin up.

One of my favorites from Galway Kinnell, on love and change, with a sweet nod to you, Moon:

The Old Life
The waves collapsed into themselves
and heavy rumbles into the darkness
and the soprano shingle whistled
gravely its way back into the sea.
When the moon came from behind the clouds
its white full-moon's light
lightly oiled the beach stones
back into silence. We stood
among shatterings, glitterings,
the brilliance. For some reason
to love does not seem ever
to hurt any less. Now it happens
another lifetime is up for us,
another life is upon us.
What's left is what is left
of the whole absolutely love-time.
Title: Re: On Bullying
Post by: moonlight52 on August 10, 2006, 11:09:48 PM
Light

I am feelin that magic in my Silver Slippers

Love to you o light  8)


moon

when I am waxin and wanin is that the old Irish way of sayin this moon's got mood swings
I am not Irish I am Welsh and very proud to be