Voicelessness and Emotional Survival Message Board

Voicelessness and Emotional Survival => Voicelessness and Emotional Survival Message Board => Topic started by: Stormchild on January 18, 2007, 10:41:43 PM

Title: The "Bad Mommy Taboo"
Post by: Stormchild on January 18, 2007, 10:41:43 PM
Wow.

Here is a review of a book I'm going to try to buy, or at least order, this weekend... it's called "When You and Your Mother Can't Be Friends".

Quote
Learn how your relationship with your mother colors your other relationships and influences your choice of a mate, how to recognize the difference between a healthy or destructive mother-daughter relationship, how mothers manipulate us and how we react, why you tend to become your mother's opposite- or her twin, how to find your truest self, and how to stop the cycle.

The book discusses the Bad Mommy Taboo,in which many in society refuse to accept that a mother can be destructive to her children, but prefer to see all moms as warm, loving, "America and apple pie" types. Great pressure is put on adult children not to mention or discuss anything bad their mothers might do, and to accept abuse because "she's your mother".  A daughter who rebels or stands up and tells the truth is often criticized by acquaintances, and even outcast from the family. "And so the Bad Mommy on a cultural level gets protected. Or she protects herself. Or she is protected by her husband."

I found myself nodding in agreement as I related my own life testimony, as well as other testimonies I have heard in the course of my ministry, Luke 17:3 Ministries, to many of the teachings in this book, especially the Bad Mommy Taboo. It is amazing just how universal and pervasive this is. People with normal mothers find it difficult to understand how it can be possible to have a destructive mother. But the strange thing is that even those with very abusive, controlling, or downright evil mothers can still be in deep denial concerning their mothers' true natures. Many continue to take the blame for an unsuccessful relationship and to expose themselves to abuse, thinking there must be something wrong with them because mom couldn't possibly be the problem. After all, moms are loving and caring of their children, right?

Well, unfortunately for some adult children, that's not right, and understanding this and realizing what is going on is the first step toward healing. This book is very helpful in that regard, and will teach us to recognize and deal with such a mother, even if she is our own. It is also encouraging in helping us tell the truth and protect ourselves over the objections of outsiders- which includes other family members.

We learn about the Evolution of the Unpleasable Mother, and there are chapters covering different types of abusive mothers, including the Doormat, the Critic, the Smotherer, the Avenger, and the Deserter. Part Three discusses how daughters react to our mothers' destructiveness, many by becoming the Angel, the Superachiever, the Cipher, the Troublemaker, or the Defector.

In Part Four, we are given suggestions for breaking the cycle and redefining the mother-daughter relationship. We are helped to understand what kind of relationship, if any, might be possible for us to maintain with our own mother. We might be able to achieve a genuine, loving, respectful friendship. We might settle for a "truce" in which we manage to have a relationship on a limited basis without compromising ourselves beyond our tolerance- one in which we successfully enforce boundaries. Or the only way we may be able to survive might be to "divorce" our mother. One women explained,"....I've finally come to the conclusion that I am much better off never seeing her again. She's just not good for my mental health." We are encouraged to make divorce a last resort, and to expect social censure from those who have their own reasons for not understanding and feel it is their place to judge us.

The author tells us, "Of the women I interviewed who have divorced their mothers, there isn't one who wouldn't have gladly sacrificed just about anything to avoid the harrowing conclusion that it was the only alternative. What most people fail to realize is that a daughter makes so heretical a move only after years of trying to make it unnecessary." The reader is taught "that life- and a healthy adulthood- may not include your mother."

This book is well-researched and well-balanced. Many suggestions are given for trying to improve our relationship with our mother, but the reality that this may not be possible is not denied. It is important to see how our victimization influences our personality and impacts our other relationships, and to stop the cycle before it affects the next generation.

Drawing on years of research and hundreds of interviews, the author "shows you how to let go, gain understanding and acceptance- or achieve a separate peace at last."

from here: http://www.amazon.com/When-Your-Mother-Cant-Friend/dp/0385298838

Can I ever relate to the 'Bad Mommy Taboo' !!!!!!!
Title: Re: The "Bad Mommy Taboo"
Post by: axa on January 19, 2007, 01:28:53 AM
Storm,

I remember moving into my first apartment which I shared with three other young women.  After one of my mother's nasty phone calls where she told me she was going to go to my workplace and tell them what I was really like, blah blah more abuse.  I put down the phone and went into the kitchen where one of my roommates was cooking.  I said in a very calm voice "I hate my mother" her response was You can't say that.

My mother was a fully fledged N and I hated her for most of my life.  She is dead for a number of years now.  I do not hate her anymore, I feel sorry that she had such lovely children who were nothing more than objects to her but I am glad that I do not have any interaction with her anymore.  I guess I feel so little for her it is amazing.  Think maybe all the therapy worked in that the hatred for her is gone from me and does not hurt me anymore.

There are plenty of bad mothers out there.


axa
Title: Re: The "Bad Mommy Taboo"
Post by: liberty on January 19, 2007, 06:00:12 AM
Hi Storm,

I read this book. I like the way it dealt with the "Bad Mommy Taboo". I have been on the receiving end of this as well. I get the "Well it's your mother" as though this is an excuse for parents to do anything to their children and the children must accept this without question.

To think that all parents are good and all parents love their children in magical thinking and the first step to healing I believe is to remove this idea from our minds.

Lib



Title: Re: The "Bad Mommy Taboo"
Post by: Hopalong on January 19, 2007, 12:11:07 PM
I have a fantasy of how my life could've been different if I'd simply put the phone down quietly, without hanging up, put a pillow over it, and gone on about my business.

 :D

Hops
Title: Re: The "Bad Mommy Taboo"
Post by: Stormchild on January 19, 2007, 09:20:43 PM
Storm,

I remember moving into my first apartment which I shared with three other young women.  After one of my mother's nasty phone calls where she told me she was going to go to my workplace and tell them what I was really like, blah blah more abuse.  I put down the phone and went into the kitchen where one of my roommates was cooking.  I said in a very calm voice "I hate my mother" her response was You can't say that.

Oh, ye Gods and little fishes. The one I always got was 'But you know she reeeeeeally loves youuuuuu....." said, always, with a look of absolute terror on the person's face. Panic. Deer in headlights.

It took me years to realize that the reason my insight was pushed away so violently was that these women were themselves (a) being abused (b) usually by their mothers and (c) in frantic denial about it.

Quote
My mother was a fully fledged N and I hated her for most of my life.  She is dead for a number of years now.  I do not hate her anymore, I feel sorry that she had such lovely children who were nothing more than objects to her but I am glad that I do not have any interaction with her anymore.  I guess I feel so little for her it is amazing.  Think maybe all the therapy worked in that the hatred for her is gone from me and does not hurt me anymore.

There are plenty of bad mothers out there.

I came to hate mine gradually, and it peaked after her death when I found out the truth about so many things... primarily just how much she had hated me, all the while using and taking all that she could. She died just over six years ago, and only now can I pity her. I was numb for a couple of years after the anger wore off - now, thank God, I pity her, but it took more than half a decade!

I read this book. I like the way it dealt with the "Bad Mommy Taboo". I have been on the receiving end of this as well. I get the "Well it's your mother" as though this is an excuse for parents to do anything to their children and the children must accept this without question.

That's exactly what it's like. As though parents have no obligation at all to be decent to their kids... no obligation to be good parents if they have chosen to be parents at all. Then we wonder why so many people are so messed up!

Quote
To think that all parents are good and all parents love their children in magical thinking and the first step to healing I believe is to remove this idea from our minds.

Lib

I agree so much, Lib! It isn't 'comforting lies' that set us free, it isn't 'slightly reduced denial' or 'politically correct perceptions' - it's the TRUTH that sets us free. And a lot of the time the truth isn't very pretty, and people are afraid of seeing it themselves - so the simplest form of self-protection is to make sure nobody else ever gets to it either....

And that's where a lot of these 'perceptual taboos' come from. We all know, intellectually, that there HAVE to be 'bad mothers', and LOTS of them, even, for so many people to be so messed up! We all know our OWN mothers - or fathers - must have fallen down on the job somewhere or we wouldn't be on this board trying to glue our lives back together! But the pressure of denial upon us, from society and even sometimes from our own training, is so fierce.

Even that bit about 'oh, they did the best they could'.

Well, some of them didn't always.

And sometimes they knew it.

And sometimes they didn't do their best because they just didn't want to!

And they knew that too.

Hugs,

Stormy
Title: Re: The "Bad Mommy Taboo"
Post by: Stormchild on January 19, 2007, 09:23:01 PM
I have a fantasy of how my life could've been different if I'd simply put the phone down quietly, without hanging up, put a pillow over it, and gone on about my business.

 :D

Hops

When I think of all the HOURS I wasted just listening to N-rant... !

Funny. I've recently made a new little promise to myself and it's so relevant here. I no longer am willing to spend time listening to any people who prove themselves incapable of listening to me. It has saved me SO much time, just in the last few months!
Title: Re: The "Bad Mommy Taboo"
Post by: Dazed1 on January 20, 2007, 12:45:24 AM
Hi Storm,

I must get this book.

What you said about deciding to not listen to those who don't listen to you:  Me too!

Thanks for the book recommendation.

dazed
Title: Re: The "Bad Mommy Taboo"
Post by: Leah on January 20, 2007, 08:25:17 AM
Hi Storm,

Many thanks for recommending this book, I am going to order a copy too.

Also looked at the site quoted on the review  Luke17:3ministries.org and copied this off the site ......

 Adult Child Abuse-The Only Abuse Still Accepted  

THE ONLY FORM OF ABUSE STILL....

     ...TOLERATED BY SOCIETY

          ...ACCEPTED BY SOCIETY

               ...CONDONED BY SOCIETY

THE ONLY FORM OF ABUSE IN WHICH THE VICTIM IS....

     ...OPENLY DISCOURAGED FROM STANDING UP FOR

          HERSELF, TALKING ABOUT, OR REVEALING THE ABUSE

             TO OTHERS

         ...EXPECTED TO CONTINUE SUFFERING

               ...CRITICIZED FOR TRYING TO PROTECT HERSELF

                    ...JUDGED FOR ESCAPING FROM HER ABUSER

THE ONLY FORM OF ABUSE IN WHICH IT IS CONSIDERED OKAY FOR A COMPETENT ADULT TO....

      ...BE CONTROLLED BY SOMEONE ELSE

          ...HAVE NO INDEPENDENCE TO RUN HER OWN LIFE OR

                MAKE HER OWN DECISIONS

               ...BE HELD HOSTAGE TO THE WHIMS OR DESIRES OF

                     ANOTHER

                    ...HAVE NO FREEDOM OF CHOICE

CHILD ABUSE THAT DID NOT END WHEN ADULTHOOD BEGAN.

THE CONTINUING VICTIMIZATION OF GROWN CHILDREN BY THEIR ABUSIVE OR CONTROLLING PARENTS, SIBLINGS, OR FAMILY MEMBERS .

 SILENCE CONDONES ABUSE!  THE TRUTH SHALL SET YOU FREE !
Title: Re: The "Bad Mommy Taboo"
Post by: Leah on January 20, 2007, 08:33:55 AM
Quote
The author tells us, "Of the women I interviewed who have divorced their mothers, there isn't one who wouldn't have gladly sacrificed just about anything to avoid the harrowing conclusion that it was the only alternative. What most people fail to realize is that a daughter makes so heretical a move only after years of trying to make it unnecessary." The reader is taught "that life- and a healthy adulthood- may not include your mother."

This is truly an answer to my prayers as I have struggled and wept for many months now, having had to finally 'divorce' myself from my mother, and the anguish and pain in my heart has at times been unbearable, fearing that I have done wrong, acted 'unchristian'.

I am weeping tears of relief, for I have had no-one to share with, no-one to discuss this with, which in itself is futher crazymaking.

Grateful to have found this site and understanding.

Leah
Title: Re: The "Bad Mommy Taboo"
Post by: Gaining Strength on January 20, 2007, 09:44:13 AM
Stormchild how wonderful that you found this book review and this site.  It really stirs up alot of sadness for me.  The issue of emotional abuse by family is one thing. The  issue of having that abuse not validated is a whole other thing.  That has been as damaging and as alienating as the original abuse - maybe more so.

Thank you so much for posting this.  It is comforting to know that this issue is being acknowledged and addressed.  Don't I hope that some will be spared that excruciating pain that so many of us have experienced. - GS
Title: Re: The "Bad Mommy Taboo"
Post by: Stormchild on January 20, 2007, 10:03:31 AM
((((((((((Dazed, leah, GS))))))))))

leah, thanks so much for the excerpt from the reviewer's site. It looks like there might be a lot of treasure there.
Title: Re: The "Bad Mommy Taboo"
Post by: Bones on January 20, 2007, 10:13:30 AM
Stormy wrote:

"I came to hate mine gradually, and it peaked after her death when I found out the truth about so many things... primarily just how much she had hated me, all the while using and taking all that she could. She died just over six years ago, and only now can I pity her. I was numb for a couple of years after the anger wore off - now, thank God, I pity her, but it took more than half a decade!"

That's where I am at NOW!!!  My NMom died in August 1997 and I'm still working through this!

Bones
Title: Re: The "Bad Mommy Taboo"
Post by: Stormchild on January 20, 2007, 10:22:43 AM
It takes time, Bones, more time than most people can believe or imagine, but God willing you will get through.

I had been working with therapists for years before her death, and found validation and affirmation that I was being abused, had been abused, by her. Without that, I don't know where I'd be at this point.

((((((((((Bones)))))))))
Title: Re: The "Bad Mommy Taboo"
Post by: Bones on January 20, 2007, 10:39:53 AM
It takes time, Bones, more time than most people can believe or imagine, but God willing you will get through.

I had been working with therapists for years before her death, and found validation and affirmation that I was being abused, had been abused, by her. Without that, I don't know where I'd be at this point.

((((((((((Bones)))))))))

Thanks, Stormy!

It makes me GRIND my teeth when I hear "platitudes" and denial about the "Bad Mommy".  Try telling that to other victims who were literally beaten to death.  I was watching a videotaped confession, by one of these mothers, as she calmly told police how she and her husband beat their little girl to death.  Her behavior on tape seemed to me as if she couldn't care less that her elementary school age child was dead!  Then she pleaded not guilty to the charges!!!

Bones
Title: Re: The "Bad Mommy Taboo"
Post by: Stormchild on January 20, 2007, 10:41:59 AM
How awful, Bones. That poor little girl. That is what happens when everyone turns a blind eye and platitudes and denial rule... it's always the innocent who pay the price... so sad.
Title: Re: The "Bad Mommy Taboo"
Post by: liberty on January 20, 2007, 10:58:01 AM
One method I use is to ask people: "Who is the most toxic person you know at work or in a social setting? Could you imagine having to live with this person? Then I ask: "Does this person have a child?" Then I say: "Well if you (an adult) find this person to be so toxic, could you imagine being their child?"

Every murderer, every thief, every criminal or toxic person is either someone's parent, or child. So who are people trying to fool when they pretend that all parents are good and loving. Saying all parents are good and loving is just as foolish as saying that all people are good and loving. Because all parents fall under the subset of all people.

People who hold on to these beliefs are delusional and perhaps should instead be looking for pink spotted donkeys and striped unicorns. We are not the irrational ones. They are!

Lib

Title: Re: The "Bad Mommy Taboo"
Post by: Stormchild on January 20, 2007, 11:03:33 AM
Woooooo lib!

I LOVE the clarity of your vision.

Yes yes yes yes yes.

Every murderer, every thief, every criminal or toxic person is either someone's parent, or child.
Title: Re: The "Bad Mommy Taboo"
Post by: Bones on January 20, 2007, 12:05:18 PM
How awful, Bones. That poor little girl. That is what happens when everyone turns a blind eye and platitudes and denial rule... it's always the innocent who pay the price... so sad.

And what made it worse for me was the TV program showed the last school picture of this little girl, where both of her eyes were clearly blackened from abuse, and those who had the power to report this and save her life let her fall through the cracks until she was murdered by her own parents!

Bones
Title: Re: The "Bad Mommy Taboo"
Post by: Dazed1 on January 20, 2007, 01:37:13 PM
Stormy,

I don't mean to hijack your post, but since we're talking about Bad Moms, I thought this article on "Characteristics of Narcissistic Mothers" would fit in.

I found this through a link on another board: http://groups.msn.com/NARCISSISTICPERSONALITYDISORDER/memberspages.msnw?action=get_message&mview=0&ID_Message=378870&LastModified=4675607009435008034

It's very long and I'm exhausted from reading it and processing it. 

It's too large to post here, so read characteristics 7- 24 at http://www.geocities.com/zpg1957/narcissists.htm

dazed


 
It's about secret things. The Destructive Narcissistic Parent creates a child that only exists to be an extension of her self. It's about body language. It's about disapproving glances. It's about vocal tone. It's very intimate. And it's very powerful. It's part of who the child is.

- Chris
 
Characteristics of Narcissistic Mothers
 
1. Everything she does is deniable. There is always a facile excuse or an explanation. Cruelties are couched in loving terms. Aggressive and hostile acts are paraded as thoughtfulness. Selfish manipulations are presented as gifts. Criticism and slander is slyly disguised as concern. She only wants what is best for you. She only wants to help you.
 
She rarely says right out that she thinks you’re inadequate. Instead, any time that you tell her you’ve done something good, she counters with something your sibling did that was better or she simply ignores you or she hears you out without saying anything, then in a short time does something cruel to you so you understand not to get above yourself. She will carefully separate cause (your joy in your accomplishment) from effect (refusing to let you borrow the car to go to the awards ceremony) by enough time that someone who didn’t live through her abuse would never believe the connection.
 
Many of her putdowns are simply by comparison. She’ll talk about how wonderful someone else is or what a wonderful job they did on something you’ve also done or how highly she thinks of them. The contrast is left up to you. She has let you know that you’re no good without saying a word. She’ll spoil your pleasure in something by simply congratulating you for it in an angry, envious voice that conveys how unhappy she is, again, completely deniably. It is impossible to confront someone over their tone of voice, their demeanor or they way they look at you, but once your narcissistic mother has you trained, she can promise terrible punishment without a word. As a result, you’re always afraid, always in the wrong, and can never exactly put your finger on why.
 
Because her abusiveness is part of a lifelong campaign of control and because she is careful to rationalize her abuse, it is extremely difficult to explain to other people what is so bad about her. She’s also careful about when and how she engages in her abuses. She’s very secretive, a characteristic of almost all abusers (“Don’t wash our dirty laundry in public!”) and will punish you for telling anyone else what she’s done. The times and locations of her worst abuses are carefully chosen so that no one who might intervene will hear or see her bad behavior, and she will seem like a completely different person in public. She’ll slam you to other people, but will always embed her devaluing nuggets of snide gossip in protestations of concern, love and understanding (“I feel so sorry for poor Cynthia. She always seems to have such a hard time, but I just don’t know what I can do for her!”) As a consequence the children of narcissists universally report that no one believes them (“I have to tell you that she always talks about YOU in the most caring way!). Unfortunately therapists, given the deniable actions of the narcissist and eager to defend a fellow parent, will often jump to the narcissist’s defense as well, reinforcing your sense of isolation and helplessness (“I’m sure she didn’t mean it like that!”)
 
2. She violates your boundaries. You feel like an extension of her. Your property is given away without your consent, sometimes in front of you. Your food is eaten off your plate or given to others off your plate. Your property may be repossessed and no reason given other than that it was never yours. Your time is committed without consulting you, and opinions purported to be yours are expressed for you. (She LOVES going to the fair! He would never want anything like that. She wouldn’t like kumquats.) You are discussed in your presence as though you are not there. She keeps tabs on your bodily functions and humiliates you by divulging the information she gleans, especially when it can be used to demonstrate her devotion and highlight her martyrdom to your needs (“Mike had that problem with frequent urination too, only his was much worse. I was so worried about him!”) You have never known what it is like to have privacy in the bathroom or in your bedroom, and she goes through your things regularly. She asks nosy questions, snoops into your email/letters/diary/conversations. She will want to dig into your feelings, particularly painful ones and is always looking for negative information on you which can be used against you. She does things against your expressed wishes frequently. All of this is done without seeming embarrassment or thought.
 
Any attempt at autonomy on your part is strongly resisted. Normal rites of passage (learning to shave, wearing makeup, dating) are grudgingly allowed only if you insist, and you’re punished for your insistence (“Since you’re old enough to date, I think you’re old enough to pay for your own clothes!”) If you demand age-appropriate clothing, grooming, control over your own life, or rights, you are difficult and she ridicules your “independence.”
 
3. She favoritizes. Narcissistic mothers commonly choose one (sometimes more) child to be the golden child and one (sometimes more) to be the scapegoat. The narcissist identifies with the golden child and provides privileges to him or her as long as the golden child does just as she wants. The golden child has to be cared for assiduously by everyone in the family. The scapegoat has no needs and instead gets to do the caring. The golden child can do nothing wrong. The scapegoat is always at fault. This creates divisions between the children, one of whom has a large investment in the mother being wise and wonderful, and the other(s) who hate her. That division will be fostered by the narcissist with lies and with blatantly unfair and favoritizing behavior. The golden child will defend the mother and indirectly perpetuate the abuse by finding reasons to blame the scapegoat for the mother’s actions. The golden child may also directly take on the narcissistic mother’s tasks by physically abusing the scapegoat so the narcissistic mother doesn’t have to do that herself.
 
4. She undermines.  Your accomplishments are acknowledged only to the extent that she can take credit for them. Any success or accomplishment for which she cannot take credit is ignored or diminished. Any time you are to be center stage and there is no opportunity for her to be the center of attention, she will try to prevent the occasion altogether, or she doesn’t come, or she leaves early, or she acts like it’s no big deal, or she steals the spotlight or she slips in little wounding comments about how much better someone else did or how what you did wasn’t as much as you could have done or as you think it is.  She undermines you by picking fights with you or being especially unpleasant just before you have to make a major effort. She acts put out if she has to do anything to support your opportunities or will outright refuse to do even small things in support of you. She will be nasty to you about things that are peripherally connected with your successes so that you find your joy in what you’ve done is tarnished, without her ever saying anything directly about it. No matter what your success, she has to take you down a peg about it.
 
5. She demeans, criticizes and denigrates. She lets you know in all sorts of little ways that she thinks less of you than she does of your siblings or of other people in general. If you complain about mistreatment by someone else, she will take that person’s side even if she doesn’t know them at all. She doesn’t care about those people or the justice of your complaints. She just wants to let you know that you’re never right.
 
She will deliver generalized barbs that are almost impossible to rebut (always in a loving, caring tone): “You were always difficult” “You can be very difficult to love” “You never seemed to be able to finish anything” “You were very hard to live with” “You’re always causing trouble” “No one could put up with the things you do.” She will deliver slams in a sidelong way - for example she’ll complain about how “no one” loves her, does anything for her, or cares about her, or she’ll complain that “everyone” is so selfish, when you’re the only person in the room. As always, this combines criticism with deniability.
 
She will slip little comments into conversation that she really enjoyed something she did with someone else - something she did with you too, but didn’t like as much. She’ll let you know that her relationship with some other person you both know is wonderful in a way your relationship with her isn’t - the carefully unspoken message being that you don’t matter much to her.
 
She minimizes, discounts or ignores your opinions and experiences. Your insights are met with condescension, denials and accusations (“I think you read too much!”) and she will brush off your information even on subjects on which you are an acknowledged expert. Whatever you say is met with smirks and amused sounding or exaggerated exclamations (“Uh hunh!” “You don’t say!” “Really!”). She’ll then make it clear that she didn’t listen to a word you said.
 
6. She makes you look crazy. If you try to confront her about something she’s done, she’ll tell you that you have “a very vivid imagination” (this is a phrase commonly used by abusers of all sorts to invalidate your experience of their abuse) that you don’t know what you’re talking about, or that she has no idea what you’re talking about. She will claim not to remember even very memorable events, flatly denying they ever happened, nor will she ever acknowledge any possibility that she might have forgotten. This is an extremely aggressive and exceptionally infuriating tactic called “gaslighting,” common to abusers of all kinds. Your perceptions of reality are continually undermined so that you end up without any confidence in your intuition, your memory or your powers of reasoning. This makes you a much better victim for the abuser.
 
Narcissists gaslight routinely. The narcissist will either insinuate or will tell you outright that you’re unstable, otherwise you wouldn’t believe such ridiculous things or be so uncooperative. You’re oversensitive. You’re imagining things. You’re hysterical. You’re completely unreasonable. You’re over-reacting, like you always do. She’ll talk to you when you’ve calmed down and aren’t so irrational. She may even characterize you as being neurotic or psychotic.
 
Once she’s constructed these fantasies of your emotional pathologies, she’ll tell others about them, as always, presenting her smears as expressions of concern and declaring her own helpless victimhood. She didn’t do anything. She has no idea why you’re so irrationally angry with her. You’ve hurt her terribly. She thinks you may need psychotherapy. She loves you very much and would do anything to make you happy, but she just doesn’t know what to do. You keep pushing her away when all she wants to do is help you.
 
She has simultaneously absolved herself of any responsibility for your obvious antipathy towards her, implied that it’s something fundamentally wrong with you that makes you angry with her, and undermined your credibility with her listeners. She plays the role of the doting mother so perfectly that no one will believe you.
Title: Re: The "Bad Mommy Taboo"
Post by: Leah on January 20, 2007, 02:44:27 PM
Dazed

Thanks for posting "Characteristics of Narcissistic Mothers" - painful but it will be beneficial once I can begin to digest it fully.

wow, being on here today has been truly remarkable.

Ever thankful with warm wishes to all

Leah

Title: Re: The "Bad Mommy Taboo"
Post by: retread on January 20, 2007, 04:30:31 PM
an interesting book along lines of bad mother
that might be worth googlin
 The practice of psychosomatic medicine as illustrated in allergy
by baruch and miller...
it was copyrighted 1956
about dominant mothers of various types
who force the father out of the picture
Title: Re: The "Bad Mommy Taboo"
Post by: Dazed1 on January 20, 2007, 04:55:03 PM
Liberty and Leah,

Re: the toxic person being our mother, I so agree.

While my mother was raging at me for no reason, I would think to myself "would I accept this crap from anyone else?  Hell, NO!!  So, why do I accept this just because it is my mother raging at me?"

During her rages (which left me in emotional turmoil and wasted so much of my psychological energy), I would also remind myself to not forget or minimize how badly she would make me feel when she raged at me.  I didn't want to forget those feelings later on when she became nice again.  I didn't want to minimize the emotional damage she did to me just because later on, she would be nice to me.

I guess I needed to remember and be my OWN witness.

dazed
Title: Re: The "Bad Mommy Taboo"
Post by: Stormchild on January 20, 2007, 07:02:32 PM
Hi dazed

been away for a few hours. Hijack? What hijack? That's an incredibly relevant and useful post and wasn't this just the perfect place for it!

thank you. Holy shlamoley, that post describes my mother to a T, especially the furtive vindictive nastiness she loved so well.
Title: Re: The "Bad Mommy Taboo"
Post by: Stormchild on January 20, 2007, 07:03:48 PM
retread, thanks. I'll look for that book. The impact of this kind of toxicity on our immune systems is real.
Title: Re: The "Bad Mommy Taboo"
Post by: Dazed1 on January 20, 2007, 10:00:10 PM
Thanks Leah & Storm.
dazed
Title: Re: The "Bad Mommy Taboo"
Post by: Stormchild on January 21, 2007, 10:56:16 AM
Yes, my immune system was effected, caught every flu and cold virus going round, and, also had to have my thyroid tested and had to take thyroid medication.  I was blamed for being ill so much and folk would ask me why I was ill so much!!  So more guilt.  Folks can be so thoughtless in their speech sometimes.  Especially as I was rushed to hospital Christmas 2005 with a very high temperature and in a dreadful state with rashes all over my body.

((((((((((leah)))))))))) Honestly, this blame the victim stuff is so tiresome. I'm sorry you had to deal with that, on top of everything else.

Quote
No contact with Nmother since spring 2006, when she trashed the bouquet of flowers I sent her for a gift.

Now I am so very happy to report that no virus or cold infections so far this winter!  Best Christmas 2006 gift!

Leah

Ouch, Leah. How about flowers for yourself, instead, this year? :-) Send them to someone who truly deserves and will truly appreciate them.
Title: Re: The "Bad Mommy Taboo"
Post by: Gaining Strength on January 21, 2007, 11:38:29 AM
Wow Dazed - that is so painful  can't finish it in one sitting.  Much of it applies to both of my parents but what really shook me up is the part about taking over your life.  I suddenly realized that I am caught in that experience right now.  My mother wants us to buy a house together.  Part of that would be helpful to me and that is how I have gotten caught up in it.  I need to continue to build up my own power.  It is only in powerlessness that an N can have any power.
Title: Re: The "Bad Mommy Taboo"
Post by: retread on January 21, 2007, 05:37:39 PM
by the by
those interesten in my earlier post
about maternal rejection and psychomatic medicine and allergies,
here is a link to an online article that covers aspect of the book...
http://www.psychosomaticmedicine.org/cgi/reprint/10/5/275.pdf

in the above article mention is made how some mothers
openly get into how they never wanted child
but some mothers will claim despite how
they showered the child with attention
that the child did not appreciate such
and thus it was the child's fault
as the mother did all she could in her mind ....
such methinks was more my mom....
Title: Re: The "Bad Mommy Taboo"
Post by: Dazed1 on January 21, 2007, 07:50:00 PM
Hi GS,

Thank you for validating my experinced and being a witness.  I'm sorry you experienced similar stuff.

About the house, please really, really think this out:

Can you handle doing this?  Would buying a house togther give your mom power?  Probably would.  Do you think that by imposing strong boundaries with her, her power over you could be minimized?  Can you maintain your sanity and your beautiful progress if you buy the house with her?

Can you buy one on your own?  Are banks in your state required to give mortgages to people who have trouble qualifying on their own?  Please check your state law and see if there are mortgage loan programs that could benefit you.  Go to your local bank and talk to the loan officer.

You're saying your mom could help you financially, but please think carefully and truthfully about what the cost and price of her help is to you.

love,
dazed



Title: Re: The "Bad Mommy Taboo"
Post by: Bones on January 21, 2007, 08:50:56 PM
Hi GS,

Thank you for validating my experinced and being a witness.  I'm sorry you experienced similar stuff.

About the house, please really, really think this out:

Can you handle doing this?  Would buying a house togther give your mom power?  Probably would.  Do you think that by imposing strong boundaries with her, her power over you could be minimized?  Can you maintain your sanity and your beautiful progress if you buy the house with her?

Can you buy one on your own?  Are banks in your state required to give mortgages to people who have trouble qualifying on their own?  Please check your state law and see if there are mortgage loan programs that could benefit you.  Go to your local bank and talk to the loan officer.

You're saying your mom could help you financially, but please think carefully and truthfully about what the cost and price of her help is to you.

love,
dazed



GS,

With an N, there's usually strings attached to any "help" that they offer so I would proceed with EXTREME caution and check things out before taking that final leap!

Bones
Title: Re: The "Bad Mommy Taboo"
Post by: Stormchild on January 22, 2007, 08:21:57 PM
GS

Can you tell us more about this house purchase thing? Only if/when you want to...
Title: Re: The "Bad Mommy Taboo"
Post by: Gaining Strength on January 22, 2007, 08:29:02 PM
Here's a bried answer before I fix dinner.

My mother and I each own our own homes, mortgage free.  My husband bought our house when he settled a big case - before we were married.  So I don't need a loan necessarily.  But the big thing is economy of scale and the basic ease of living with three people rather than two.  But there definitely are some things I need to think about before making that step.  I want to respond more fully and need to figure out how to put it into words.  That will be helpful for me.  Thanks for asking. - GS
Title: Re: The "Bad Mommy Taboo"
Post by: gratitude28 on January 22, 2007, 09:31:24 PM
Thank you all for this amazing post and especially to storm and dazed for digging up the info. I had seen that article before, dazed, and couldn't find it again... it was early on when I was first researching all this . I REALLY appreciate it.
Storm, is it odd to read this about your mother now that she is gone? How much did you realize before she died?
There is just so much here... and, from one of the other posts, I can't remember who said it, it is hard to accept this even if you know it. I know she hates me and yet I still get thoughts of her when she was "playing the part of mother." And I think that's what it is.
BUT it is so hard to prove/believe that someone can be this undermining and sneaky. And it really pisses me off that I know it and no one else sees or admits it. I even had some of the things mentioned here pop into my head while reading the manner of abuse...

"Maybe you could lose weight if you ate breakfast right away." Unsolicited. Pointing out that I was too fat in her eyes.
"I have an interesting diet here." Again... And this is while I was healthy and should have been happy.
"If you hold your stomach muscles in you can lose ten pounds a year." Agfain, I was at a strong, healthy weight and very attractive (of course I hated myself because I had daily 'tips' like these).
"We are paying for your sister because she is going to Med School." I.e. My Master's degree isn't anything compared to her degree.
"We paid for her wedding because she had a big one like I wanted to have." She would say I was the one who never wanted to do things, but the truth is, she wanted me to not do them so she didn't have to pay/attend. I had a wedding of a few close friends with a JP and cake and champagne (that I paid for) afterwards. They stayed in my bed in my apartment the night before my wedding so as to not have to spend money. I slept on a couch the night before my wedding. My sister had 150 guests in a hotel with a huge wedding dress and bridesmaids and all kinds of crap. It was, as Libby says, THE EVENT OF A LIFETIME...

HOW DO PEOPLE NOT SEE THIS????????

Gosh I feel mean inside right now. But that is good... means there is something I need to work on. I will work on finding serenity and peace today.

Thank you all.
Love, Beth
Title: Re: The "Bad Mommy Taboo"
Post by: Stormchild on January 22, 2007, 10:21:17 PM
((((((((((beth))))))))))

People don't see it because it's too painful, or it's too much work, or dealing with it once they see it would be too much work, or too painful.

Work is hard. Painful work is almost impossible. In a way, the Ns are both to blame and to thank. If they did not cause such wretchedness, we might take even longer to awaken... because Ns make it more painful to stay unaware than to face the truth of what they are and what they do to us.

About my mother: I knew some things all my life - her actions and her words never, never matched, and somehow I was always able to stay aware of that. I just didn't fully realize what it meant - that she was so hateful to me, with such consistency, because she hated me, with such completeness.

She hated my father, and at the same time she drained him, sucked him dry. I was trained to play a similar role, and all her hatred and fury emerged when he became incapacitated and I refused to 'put on his harness' - refused to move back into the house, refused to move back into the neighborhood, refused, refused, refused.

But even then, most of her venom was directed against me 'behind my back', because she was still using me financially, and didn't want to lose her cash cow.

Only after she died did people begin to compare what she said about me with what I actually did, and was. Then quite a few of them felt driven to make amends, and in THAT process I heard things that amazed me... but they were so consistent, no matter who was telling me about them, it was clear they were factual.

Lies she told... things she said I had done and said, horrible things - that she had actually said and done to ME [so I knew these witnesses must have been telling the truth; only she could have inverted the evil so exactly].

And the reverse. Things I did for her, things I gave to her, that she claimed my Nsibling had done or given, or that she had acquired for herself. [A particularly nasty twist: some major appliances I bought for her that she claimed she had taken out a home equity loan to buy for herself because I refused to help her.]

Vicious, vicious stuff. It took me ages to deal with it.

I was, thank God, not hindered by disbelief. The one saving grace that I had was that because I'd known all my life that there was something 'wrong' in her relating to me, I could believe all of it when it finally came into the open. It made sense of all the weird little things I'd heard, all the strange little things she did, the furtiveness, the sneakiness, the witholding of information, the mean little 'gotcha' games she used to play. It all fell into place perfectly without a seam.

I hated her then. I pity her now. I doubt that I will ever mourn her.
Title: Re: The "Bad Mommy Taboo"
Post by: Stormchild on January 22, 2007, 10:53:39 PM
Interesting thought. The above probably explains why it is true for me that anyone who tells a deliberate lie about me - a proven, deliberate lie - gets instantly written off, and will never again have my respect or fellowship - although I will be civil, as circumstances require.

Boundaries, and experience.
Title: Re: The "Bad Mommy Taboo"
Post by: gratitude28 on January 22, 2007, 11:15:08 PM
oh ((((storm)))))))))))))I have to agree with you in one thing... we are able to look at ourselves and judge our lives around usin a healthier way because of what we have learned.
Still... it must have been so shocking and hurtful to hear those things at first. Fortunately, it must have also been validating to hear things click into place when others "got it." But how sad it all is. How dreadfully sad. For us, for them...
This is hard for me today. I will write more later.
But thank you so much for sharing. Honestly, I am a bit scared that is what would happen with my mother as well... I don't know why, but it seems so sad and wrong to me.
Love you storm,
Beth
Title: Re: The "Bad Mommy Taboo"
Post by: Bones on January 23, 2007, 01:19:19 PM
((((((((((beth))))))))))

People don't see it because it's too painful, or it's too much work, or dealing with it once they see it would be too much work, or too painful.

Work is hard. Painful work is almost impossible. In a way, the Ns are both to blame and to thank. If they did not cause such wretchedness, we might take even longer to awaken... because Ns make it more painful to stay unaware than to face the truth of what they are and what they do to us.

About my mother: I knew some things all my life - her actions and her words never, never matched, and somehow I was always able to stay aware of that. I just didn't fully realize what it meant - that she was so hateful to me, with such consistency, because she hated me, with such completeness.

She hated my father, and at the same time she drained him, sucked him dry. I was trained to play a similar role, and all her hatred and fury emerged when he became incapacitated and I refused to 'put on his harness' - refused to move back into the house, refused to move back into the neighborhood, refused, refused, refused.

But even then, most of her venom was directed against me 'behind my back', because she was still using me financially, and didn't want to lose her cash cow.

Only after she died did people begin to compare what she said about me with what I actually did, and was. Then quite a few of them felt driven to make amends, and in THAT process I heard things that amazed me... but they were so consistent, no matter who was telling me about them, it was clear they were factual.

Lies she told... things she said I had done and said, horrible things - that she had actually said and done to ME [so I knew these witnesses must have been telling the truth; only she could have inverted the evil so exactly].

And the reverse. Things I did for her, things I gave to her, that she claimed my Nsibling had done or given, or that she had acquired for herself. [A particularly nasty twist: some major appliances I bought for her that she claimed she had taken out a home equity loan to buy for herself because I refused to help her.]

Vicious, vicious stuff. It took me ages to deal with it.

I was, thank God, not hindered by disbelief. The one saving grace that I had was that because I'd known all my life that there was something 'wrong' in her relating to me, I could believe all of it when it finally came into the open. It made sense of all the weird little things I'd heard, all the strange little things she did, the furtiveness, the sneakiness, the witholding of information, the mean little 'gotcha' games she used to play. It all fell into place perfectly without a seam.

I hated her then. I pity her now. I doubt that I will ever mourn her.

((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((Stormy)))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))

My Nmother did basically the same crap to me as your Nmother did to you.  Even after she died, a lot of her crap was thrown in my face by other Nrelatives (i.e. "Your mother told me you are a whore and I believe it!" or "You're NOTHING but a RETARD and you're wasting space in a university classroom!  You'll never amount to anything!")  I have divorced all of those Nrelatives and have absolutely NO contact with them.  I'm still going through the "hating stage" and I curse her name every day!

Bones
Title: Re: The "Bad Mommy Taboo"
Post by: gratitude28 on January 23, 2007, 08:27:53 PM
(((((((((((((((Bones)))))))))))))
Title: Re: The "Bad Mommy Taboo"
Post by: Stormchild on January 23, 2007, 09:28:08 PM
Oh my.

((((((((((Bones))))))))))
((((((((((Beth))))))))))

This was therapy night after work, sorry I was away till now.

All I can do is hug you both and say I understand... I do... and it will eventually hurt less. It really will.

Title: Re: The "Bad Mommy Taboo"
Post by: Bones on January 23, 2007, 09:34:28 PM
(((((((((((((((Bones)))))))))))))

Thanks, Gratitude!

Bones
Title: Re: The "Bad Mommy Taboo"
Post by: Bones on January 23, 2007, 09:35:53 PM
Oh my.

((((((((((Bones))))))))))
((((((((((Beth))))))))))

This was therapy night after work, sorry I was away till now.

All I can do is hug you both and say I understand... I do... and it will eventually hurt less. It really will.



Thanks, Stormy!

Bones
Title: Re: The "Bad Mommy Taboo"
Post by: ANewSheriff on January 23, 2007, 11:41:05 PM
Hi Storm,

Love that post!  How true...  For years and years and years I carried so much guilt and shame that I did not like my own mother.  I definitely picked up on the taboo.  First, there is no voice within the family of origin and then society tells us we may not have a voice outside of the family either.  Double whammy!

I freed myself of my mother last spring.  I had only one contact with her and that was at my grandfather's funeral (her father).  She was an embarrassing mess and didn't miss a second to shift all the focus onto herself through her bizarre histrionics.  I observed this, but felt removed and actually quite amused much of the time.  It has been a blissful nine months without her in my life.  I have let go.  This group (thank the mighty Heavens and Dr. Grossman) enabled me to begin to heal.  It has been beautiful to watch the growth, awareness and healing of others who were here when I first arrived and found their way here after I settled in.

I do not like to bash, but have come to a place where I just cannot find the kind of diplomacy I once was able to conjure up so frequently.  I am tired (as it sounds like you are) of making excuses for people's inexcusable behavior.  We do our best to make a go of these relationships, to do right, and to mend fences.  There are times it is absolutely necessary to "jump ship".

ANewSheriff     
Title: Re: The "Bad Mommy Taboo"
Post by: gratitude28 on January 23, 2007, 11:45:55 PM
((((((((((((((((ANS))))))))))))))

I have missed you so much and wondered how you were. I am so glad to hear from you and to hear that you are picking up, moving on and doing well! I've really missed you!!!!!!

Love, Beth
Title: Re: The "Bad Mommy Taboo"
Post by: ANewSheriff on January 23, 2007, 11:57:36 PM
((((((((((((((((((((Beth)))))))))))))))))))  Back at ya!

I really should be writing a paper tonight, but I have been meaning to stop in for awhile.  Paper-schmaper!

ANS 
Title: Re: The "Bad Mommy Taboo"
Post by: Stormchild on January 24, 2007, 12:12:43 AM
ANS, you sound plenty diplomatic to me. Nary a bash in the place.

So glad to see you here and so glad that all is well.

Yes; I think excusing the inexcusable is part of the kit. It is part of the futile exercise of trusting the untrustworthy, seeking love from the unloving, seeking care from the uncaring, seeking mercy from the merciless.

Such people do exist. It is not our fault that they exist... and since it is not our fault, we do not need to allow them to punish us lifelong for it.

We don't have to hate them [permanently; we may be unable to avoid hating them for awhile during the process of separating ourselves from them - but in that case, they've usually hated us lifelong, and our transient hating back is a fleabite on a volcano, by comparison].

Most importantly, it is not hating them when we choose to remove ourselves to a safe distance so that they can no longer harm us.

Added on edit: I am reminded of C.S. Lewis' writings on the imprecatory Psalms... the Psalms in which the writer really, really hates someone, and lets it all hang out.

Theologians have been bemused by these Psalms over the centuries. Why would such things be made part of a sacred text?

I love Lewis' reasoning. They are there because they describe the way a trapped and helpless victim of evil feels, in his or her heart. They are there to show us how great is the damage that evil can do to the trapped and helpless soul. And they are there to teach us that we may be unable to help having these feelings, at various times in our lives - and that God wanted to be sure we would know, when we do, that He understands even this. So that we can admit these feelings to Him without shame, so that we may heal all the sooner from them.

Paper schmaper yourself! :-) :-) it is SO GOOD TO SEE YOU HERE!!!
Title: Re: The "Bad Mommy Taboo"
Post by: gratitude28 on January 24, 2007, 12:17:22 AM
Very very good point, storm. My writing is getting worse and worse and my thinking a bit jumbled, so I will leave the thought there for today.
Title: Re: The "Bad Mommy Taboo"
Post by: ANewSheriff on January 24, 2007, 10:32:04 PM
storm: 
Quote
It is part of the futile exercise of trusting the untrustworthy, seeking love from the unloving, seeking care from the uncaring, seeking mercy from the merciless.

I am exhausted reading this, Storm.  I have spent so much of my life doing all of the above.  I suppose we all do to some point, but you get to a certain age and although there is gratitude for the enlightenment and growth that comes from these escapades there is also such a sense of lost time, don't you think?  Pretty much, though, I feel free today.  Life is not perfect, but I am very protective of my boundaries these days.  I am unwilling to allow the negativity in anymore.  And, the teenagers think they have the cornerstone on "My Space". Try to tell that to someone in recovery in the Voiceless Forum.   :)

ANS     
Title: Re: The "Bad Mommy Taboo"
Post by: Dazed1 on January 25, 2007, 02:04:10 AM
"Yes; I think excusing the inexcusable is part of the kit. It is part of the futile exercise of trusting the untrustworthy, seeking love from the unloving, seeking care from the uncaring, seeking mercy from the merciless."   Pure poetry, Storm.  These are truths I need to absorb.  Stop wasting time and energy on the hopeless and move on.

"Such people do exist. It is not our fault that they exist... and since it is not our fault, we do not need to allow them to punish us lifelong for it."    This is my new attitude.

The CS Lewis stuff is fascinating and it gives me a sense of relief and self forgiveness.

"...but you get to a certain age and although there is gratitude for the enlightenment and growth that comes from these escapades there is also such a sense of lost time, don't you think? "  Absolutely, ANS.  This is how I feel. 

So many sad truths here.

dazed
Title: Re: The "Bad Mommy Taboo"
Post by: Leah on January 25, 2007, 06:44:58 AM
storm: 
Quote
It is part of the futile exercise of trusting the untrustworthy, seeking love from the unloving, seeking care from the uncaring, seeking mercy from the merciless.

I am exhausted reading this, Storm.  I have spent so much of my life doing all of the above.  I suppose we all do to some point, but you get to a certain age and although there is gratitude for the enlightenment and growth that comes from these escapades there is also such a sense of lost time, don't you think?  Pretty much, though, I feel free today.  Life is not perfect, but I am very protective of my boundaries these days.  I am unwilling to allow the negativity in anymore.  And, the teenagers think they have the cornerstone on "My Space". Try to tell that to someone in recovery in the Voiceless Forum.   :)

ANS     

Agree ANS

Sometimes, especially lately, have sat here and thought why did I waste those precious years, the best years really, seeking love from the unloving, trusting the untrustworthy, and, yes even seeking mercy from the merciless.

My heartfelt hope is that due to the resources available today via the internt, especially Voicelessness Forum, and other empowering and supportive sites, others won't have to lose precious years of their lives, walking lost in the wilderness of ignorance and abusive denial, regarding the reality of emotional abuse.

seeking, finding and receiving, validation and genuine support, as soon as is possible, really does makes a difference.

Leah
Title: Re: The "Bad Mommy Taboo"
Post by: towrite on January 25, 2007, 12:00:32 PM
My Nmom wrote me a letter when I moved back to my hometown that if I did or said anything to embarrass her, she'd cut me out of her will.

How's that??

Towrite
Title: Re: The "Bad Mommy Taboo"
Post by: Bones on January 25, 2007, 03:09:03 PM
storm: 
Quote
It is part of the futile exercise of trusting the untrustworthy, seeking love from the unloving, seeking care from the uncaring, seeking mercy from the merciless.

I am exhausted reading this, Storm.  I have spent so much of my life doing all of the above.  I suppose we all do to some point, but you get to a certain age and although there is gratitude for the enlightenment and growth that comes from these escapades there is also such a sense of lost time, don't you think?  Pretty much, though, I feel free today.  Life is not perfect, but I am very protective of my boundaries these days.  I am unwilling to allow the negativity in anymore.  And, the teenagers think they have the cornerstone on "My Space". Try to tell that to someone in recovery in the Voiceless Forum.   :)

ANS     

Agree ANS

Sometimes, especially lately, have sat here and thought why did I waste those precious years, the best years really, seeking love from the unloving, trusting the untrustworthy, and, yes even seeking mercy from the merciless.

My heartfelt hope is that due to the resources available today via the internt, especially Voicelessness Forum, and other empowering and supportive sites, others won't have to lose precious years of their lives, walking lost in the wilderness of ignorance and abusive denial, regarding the reality of emotional abuse.

seeking, finding and receiving, validation and genuine support, as soon as is possible, really does makes a difference.

Leah

Also, when we have the misfortune of being born to an Nmother, we have no way of knowing any better.  Just like a spitting cobra, these Nmothers projected their venom onto us and, for years, we blamed ourselves for it.  Now we are beginning to understand that we did NOTHING wrong by simply being born.  Until now, when we discovered this Board, we had no way of knowing how to put all the pieces of this jigsaw puzzle together.  Once we obtained that skill, then we were finally able to see the Big Picture.

Bones
Title: Re: The "Bad Mommy Taboo"
Post by: reallyME on January 26, 2007, 04:12:21 PM
Quote
Thank you for the Luke 17:3 ministries info and Stormy, you said it all, right here:


And that's where a lot of these 'perceptual taboos' come from. We all know, intellectually, that there HAVE to be 'bad mothers', and LOTS of them, even, for so many people to be so messed up! We all know our OWN mothers - or fathers - must have fallen down on the job somewhere or we wouldn't be on this board trying to glue our lives back together! But the pressure of denial upon us, from society and even sometimes from our own training, is so fierce.

Even that bit about 'oh, they did the best they could'.

Well, some of them didn't always.

And sometimes they knew it.

And sometimes they didn't do their best because they just didn't want to!

And they knew that too.

Hugs,

Stormy
Title: Re: The "Bad Mommy Taboo"
Post by: Dazed1 on January 26, 2007, 11:32:18 PM
Bones & Reallyme,

You guys sum it all up:  we're glueing together the jigsaw pieces of our lives due to Nmoms and the taboo.

dazed
Title: Re: The "Bad Mommy Taboo"
Post by: Bones on January 27, 2007, 11:00:45 AM
Bones & Reallyme,

You guys sum it all up:  we're glueing together the jigsaw pieces of our lives due to Nmoms and the taboo.

dazed

Thanks, Dazed!

Bones
Title: Re: The "Bad Mommy Taboo"
Post by: Stormchild on January 28, 2007, 09:09:36 PM
And we have a place where we can work on our puzzles together now.
Title: Re: The "Bad Mommy Taboo"
Post by: Bones on January 29, 2007, 02:33:01 PM
And we have a place where we can work on our puzzles together now.

And some more pieces just came together!

I remember when I was attending group therapy, I described to the therapist how Nmom had constantly attempted to force me to become a "mindless, brainless, extension of her".  The therapist looked at me as if I had three heads and discounted that any mother would ever do that to her child!  YECK!!!

Bones
Title: Re: The "Bad Mommy Taboo"
Post by: Stormchild on January 29, 2007, 10:45:26 PM
Ouch, Bones.

Quelle jercque.

I hope you got out of that group PDQ...
Title: Re: The "Bad Mommy Taboo"
Post by: Dazed1 on January 30, 2007, 01:04:38 AM
Bones,

bad Ts are dangerous. 

dazed
Title: Re: The "Bad Mommy Taboo"
Post by: Bones on January 30, 2007, 05:13:27 AM
Ouch, Bones.

Quelle jercque.

I hope you got out of that group PDQ...

Actually, the therapist dumped the group.  She decided she had her own issues to deal with but made no effort to have another therapist take over the group so we simply got dumped on our a$$es and left to fend for ourselves.  She was probably an N.

Bones
Title: Re: The "Bad Mommy Taboo"
Post by: Bones on January 30, 2007, 05:15:37 AM
Bones,

bad Ts are dangerous. 

dazed

And boy, did I learn that the hard way!

Bones
Title: Re: The "Bad Mommy Taboo"
Post by: Hopalong on January 30, 2007, 09:05:57 AM
I found two things especially in finding the right T for me:

1) a T who was not religiously doctrinaire, who'd respect my agnosticism
2) a T who had children or grandchildren

Other than that, smart and compassionate and human.

(My favorite former T was just in a wreck. He's okay but he was hurt.  :()

Hops
Title: Re: The "Bad Mommy Taboo"
Post by: axa on January 30, 2007, 11:16:00 AM
Hi yall,

Read something yesterday which went like children of alcoholics do not know what normal is.  Somehow this rang through for me and makes some sense around why I have been in Nhell so often.

axa
Title: Re: The "Bad Mommy Taboo"
Post by: Dazed1 on January 30, 2007, 11:30:56 AM
Hi Axa,

"Read something yesterday which went like children of alcoholics do not know what normal is."

As far as children of Ns finding out what is "normal", there's a book on that subject which is called
An Adult Child's Guide to What's 'Normal' by John C. Friel Ph.D., Linda D. Friel M.A.   I read it and loved it. 

Thought I'd also share other books I've read and found very helpful (yes, I should post this on the other board):

If You Had Controlling Parents: How to Make Peace with Your Past and Take Your Place in the World  by Dan Neuharth

Why Is It Always About You? : Saving Yourself from the Narcissists in Your Life  by Sandy Hotchkiss

Boundaries (Fireside/Parkside Recovery Book)  by Anne Katherine

I'm kinda embarrased that I've bought all these books (and many, many more similar ones), but, they've really turned me around.  For me, it's money very well spent.

I believe you're in the UK.  All the above books can be found at amazon.

Enjoy.  You may have to buy a new bookcase; I did!

dazed
Title: Re: The "Bad Mommy Taboo"
Post by: Leah on January 30, 2007, 11:39:27 AM
Hi Dazed,

Well if you are embarassed about all the books you have bought and read on the Nish subject etc., then I ought to be ashamed  :)

Not read this one though ......

If You Had Controlling Parents: How to Make Peace with Your Past and Take Your Place in the World  by Dan Neuharth

Will now toddle off to amazon and check that one out!!  sounds like something that may be positively helpful at this time along my journey. 

Bookshelves heaving and groaning  :)

But you are right Dazed, these books are money well spent, life changing ... life saving .... empowering when the  :idea: come on.

Leah


Title: Re: The "Bad Mommy Taboo"
Post by: Dazed1 on January 30, 2007, 12:00:44 PM
Leah,

Good to hear you're a book junkie too :D .

The Dan Neuharth book was the first one I read in my journey to recovery.  It was really good.

I just started reading another book:  Breaking the Cycle of Abuse by  Beverly Engel.  I like this book because she goes beyond the intro to Ns.  She talks about whether the Ns can be "cured". 

What's really depressing is that she basically says that male Ns can be cured if they want to, but that female Ns cannot be cured because female Ns usually do not want to be cured.  Her conclusions are based on her experiences as a T.

I've taken a break from reading this one cuz her conclusion re:female Ns cannot be cured just bumed the hell out of my.  Gotta absorb her conclusion and then go back and finish the book.

dazed
Title: Re: The "Bad Mommy Taboo"
Post by: Leah on January 30, 2007, 12:32:42 PM
Dazed,

Definately a book junkie  :D can't walk by a bookstall, book fair, without being drawn to yet another 'must read'   :)

Quote
Breaking the Cycle of Abuse by  Beverly Engel.  I like this book because she goes beyond the intro to Ns.  She talks about whether the Ns can be "cured". 

What's really depressing is that she basically says that male Ns can be cured if they want to, but that female Ns cannot be cured because female Ns usually do not want to be cured.  Her conclusions are based on her experiences as a T.
 

Well Dazed, my Nmother actually finally told me "that she did not want to change" last spring, as she said "why should I?" which was a slap in the face to me, but, there again, I don't have false hope.

It is depressing when it's your mother, for anyone

Breaking the Cycle of Abuse by  Beverly Engel reviews as an excellent book, be interested to know you final thoughts on it.

Warm wishes

Leah




Title: Re: The "Bad Mommy Taboo"
Post by: Gaining Strength on January 30, 2007, 02:10:42 PM
I haven't been keeping up with this thread until today, when I read this:

It is part of the futile exercise of trusting the untrustworthy, seeking love from the unloving, seeking care from the uncaring, seeking mercy from the merciless.

Boy, Storm, that is so powerful.  It gets right to the matter.  I have lived that futile life.  I think I have stopped doing those things but I know I have not stopped grieving that my mother and father could not love or care or be trusted.  That still stings. - GS
Title: Re: The "Bad Mommy Taboo"
Post by: BonesMS on April 18, 2007, 08:04:11 PM
It's been awhile since anything was discussed in this thread.  Since we have some new people, who appear to be struggling with the "Bad Mommy Taboo", I thought it might be a good idea to bring this back up.

Bones
Title: Re: The "Bad Mommy Taboo"
Post by: isittoolate on April 18, 2007, 09:39:17 PM
I can add to this about my mother, but she wasn't BAD. She was unaware.

She did not know that all her 5 children would have different personalities/characteristics, needs etc., and she never noticed the little blond one pulling away, shy, not talkative, wetting the bed, scapegoat of the other 4.  She was never educated about this.

I think she was expected to churn out the free farm hands for my N father.

Izzy
Title: Re: The "Bad Mommy Taboo"
Post by: cats paw on April 20, 2007, 04:03:31 PM
BonesMS,

   Just wanted to say thanks for noticing that some of us are still struggling with this issue.  I thought I had gotten it more than I have, but I think I must have gotten it on more of an intellectual level.  I also think that for the past ten or so years I have unwittingly slipped back into the parentified child role. It did not happen overnight- I started out as my adult self when my mother had bypass surgery.  I forgot some of what I had learned about her, but I still had not yet experienced that which was to be revealed by some of the things she chose to do to me- whether conscious or unconscious, intended or not.
   It is so very sad that she needs N supplies, because she has needs that can not be met.  My heart breaks for her knowing that she will die this way.  I wish I could be the all giving daughter who could make it all better, but I've found that each thing I do is received with a cursory thank you, but in the next sentence she is demanding the next thing and killing two birds with one stone by the implication that what was just done for her was not quite good enough.  And I am sick of looking at me through her reality.  I have learned that it can't be all me, because I see her eventually devalue everyone.  Can everyone possibly be that much of a failure or so uncaring?  Methinks not.

   Bones- in light of what you wrote about on this thread- some of the hurtful things that were said about you that you mentioned, I again want to say congratulations on the MS.

   I will revisit this thread, and reread what all of you have posted on it, and also write again. Oh- and Stormchild- I've got "When You and Your Mother Can't Be Friends" somewhere in the books I had put in boxes a long time ago.  I might pull it out of mothballs and revisit.

   Leah, Dazed-  Glad there are other "book junkies"!

cats paw
Title: Re: The "Bad Mommy Taboo"
Post by: Lupita on April 20, 2007, 04:52:30 PM
Why do you think a mother compete with her daughter? An inscent child? And the mother do not see the poor little baby as a little baby but as a woman that is stilling attention, love, bilongings, etc that belong the the mother? I never felt that way for my son. My mother did for me. She always competed with me. I will never understand why. To the point of causing me damage, of all kinds. Just, why, just why.
Title: Re: The "Bad Mommy Taboo"
Post by: cats paw on April 20, 2007, 07:17:14 PM
Oh Lupita,

  I can hear the pain and struggle with your cry of "Why?"  Can you talk about it some more?  The pain you feel?

  You have not let this defeat you, you are coming here and doing things for yourself in your life.

   Talk to us a liitle more about your pain over this, if you are able.

cats paw
Title: Re: The "Bad Mommy Taboo"
Post by: BonesMS on April 21, 2007, 05:18:29 AM
BonesMS,

   Just wanted to say thanks for noticing that some of us are still struggling with this issue.  I thought I had gotten it more than I have, but I think I must have gotten it on more of an intellectual level.  I also think that for the past ten or so years I have unwittingly slipped back into the parentified child role. It did not happen overnight- I started out as my adult self when my mother had bypass surgery.  I forgot some of what I had learned about her, but I still had not yet experienced that which was to be revealed by some of the things she chose to do to me- whether conscious or unconscious, intended or not.
   It is so very sad that she needs N supplies, because she has needs that can not be met.  My heart breaks for her knowing that she will die this way.  I wish I could be the all giving daughter who could make it all better, but I've found that each thing I do is received with a cursory thank you, but in the next sentence she is demanding the next thing and killing two birds with one stone by the implication that what was just done for her was not quite good enough.  And I am sick of looking at me through her reality.  I have learned that it can't be all me, because I see her eventually devalue everyone.  Can everyone possibly be that much of a failure or so uncaring?  Methinks not.

   Bones- in light of what you wrote about on this thread- some of the hurtful things that were said about you that you mentioned, I again want to say congratulations on the MS.

   I will revisit this thread, and reread what all of you have posted on it, and also write again. Oh- and Stormchild- I've got "When You and Your Mother Can't Be Friends" somewhere in the books I had put in boxes a long time ago.  I might pull it out of mothballs and revisit.

   Leah, Dazed-  Glad there are other "book junkies"!

cats paw

You're welcome, Cats Paw.

Bones