Voicelessness and Emotional Survival Message Board
Voicelessness and Emotional Survival => Voicelessness and Emotional Survival Message Board => Topic started by: Overcomer on July 14, 2007, 10:00:06 AM
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I have been doing some research on mental illness. My friend, Heidi Anfinson, is in jail for killing her newborn son, but I am convinced it was post partum depression. She is in jail but I think a lot of us live in our own jail. We have been bullied, manipulated, abused by N and we snapped. I purpose over the years some people like us have snapped to the point of murder. Maybe Bundy had an N mom but rather than being like us, he snapped. Or Jeffrey Dahmer? I wonder if cause victims
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actually have chemicals in their brain change after so much abuse and brainwashing? Could that be why we know in our heart what we need to do to get better but we just cannot seem to wra our minds around it?
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Hi Kelly
I read this the other day: www.psychologies.co.uk/psychologists_view_18_04_07.php (http://www.psychologies.co.uk/psychologists_view_18_04_07.php)
and was interested in the case of (excerpt):
"Henry Howard, a rare example of an American spree killer who had survived. His family had been about as stir crazy as it is possible to be, yet by the time I met him, he was one of the sanest people I had ever encountered, after some highly effective therapy."
I couldn't find any more info about Howard, but his story seems to me to point to someone who at the last minute does the 'right thing', in as much as he chose to murder his tormentors, rather than innocent people. Anyone got any links or info on this case?
i think some of us 'snap' for a moment and regret it almost immediately; others 'snap' and stay 'snapped' as they can't afford to acknowledge what they've done; others are insane before and after the terrible things they do
Does abuse cause chemical changes in the brain? i think there are some studies that say yes. But I don't think the heart and brain act independently, even though they might pull in different directions, they're still woven together...
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Great, Great topic. I want to think about it today and get back, Kelly Love Ami
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OC,
Can you explain the question a little more? Are you asking if everyone is a little bit "off"? Are you speaking of people on this board?
CB
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No I was reading about my friend and they kept talking about post partum psychosis and how their brain chemistry is altered. Then I think about depression and how you cannot snap out of it like people would have you do. And then I think about my snap out of it thread and then I realize you cannot will yourself to get better-it is a process. Then I wonder about people like Cybil who end up with multiple personalty disorder. Are some of up mental because of the abuse? Some days I feel that
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that way especially when I am P M S. And I think maybe we are just a few brain cells away from being crazy? When people go to a psych ward they are counselled. When we go to a T we are also. I do not think my friend is a monster but she is in jail because she snapped and made some real judgment errors.
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Kells, when i have PMS I know I'm about 3 brain cells away from crazy. But 'crazy' isn't some definite state we can look at and say for sure 'crazy' or 'sane' I don't think.
what decides for us is everyone else's reactions to our actions right? If we act crazy and hurt others, we get locked up.
90% of people in prison in the UK have mental health problems. Why aren't they being treated or counselled? Because society decides it cannot afford to treat them, or does not know how to treat them successfully? Some are treated of course. Is prison about punishment, really, or is it simply about removing people from society so that they can't harm others?
Our systems aren't perfect are they? Are you upset about your friend?
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gotta go but wanted to add a hug (((((((((Kelly)))))))))
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Hi OC,
It only goes to show the expanse of people who are effected by one person's actions. It sounds like you believe your friend is in jail but she does not deserve it because she was mentally ill at the time of her actions? I'd feel upset, I think, in your shoes. So sorry ....the law sucks sometimes, I really think.
The explanation I am drawn most to is that sanity/insanity is a sort of sliding scale where most people are not actually or always sane or insane. In other words one is not totally sane all of the time nor completely insane either (in most cases??).
That means we all have insane moments and some longer than others.
:shock: :shock: It's kind of scary to think about that but it makes sense to me because there have been days!!!! :?
The term mentally ill, imo, is simply a description of a person who has slid further along the scale toward insanity and remains there, longer than usual. Some mental illnesses, though, are not curable so that must mean the person stays "more" insane than the rest of us, until such cure is found, or until the problem is erradicated (the problem being the cause of the mental illness and then there is the matter of treatments of it's effects).
The term "snapped" I have a problem with sometimes because I really believe, in the split second before action, when the compulsion to act is sooooo strong......a sane person makes a choice. So where does the snapping come in? It seems to imply a lack of control over actions and I just don't believe that to be true, a lot of the time. People choose how to act. They may not think about it very long, they might not consider the consequences, or the morality, or other factors about their actions, but they do indeed decide to take action. I think most sane people do anyway.
Legally, a person can be found to not be accountable for their actions due to insanity (which is supposed to include the idea that the person has no judgement....cannot tell the difference between right and wrong.....is not able to process their own behaviour on a moral/sane scale (at least at the time of the offense).
So this may be what you mean by "snapped"....in that for that time period, your friend did not process her actions sanely......was not able to process them due to mental illness?
This is the tricky part.......
Could she have known about post-partum depression and expected to use it as a defense? (which didn't work out in her favour, as she is in jail now).
Or did she indeed move so far down on the insanity scale that she was truly not able to think rationally or judge her own behaviour?
And how can this be determined?
I think, in law, the court tries to consider the person's actions/behaviour before and after the crime....to see if they were acting sanely at those times and how much of the time as close and just after the crime as can be examined.
Does a person "snap" for a second? Or......for a second, does the person choose to ignor all he/she knows is right and acts because he/she feels compelled to/wants to very badly? Or is there a mental illness present that prevents the person from choosing?
A lot of questions I sure don't know the answers to but my own experiences of feeling at the brink of insanity have taught me there is a very fine line between the two and so far, I have not chosen to cross the line, although it has been tempting at times. I must not have been mentally ill enough to have forgotten the difference between right and wrong and I know I didn't lose my ability to choose.
In cases such as Dahmer's.......I fail to see how he could be sane. Yet, in Bundy's case, his actions by living a double life, having a family and all that....seem to indicate sanity, one might think.....?
On the lighter side, here's a test that prooves I am totally insane: (it only works if you have the sound on tho :D):
http://www.tekzoned.com/instest/
Sela
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My friend was 38 and it was her first child. I worked with her for 5 years. She said the baby drowned in the tub and then she panicked and drove the baby up to the lake and hid its body in it. She did lied and said the baby was kidnapped. She also did not act appropriately while the police were interrogating her. She is not beautiful and she smokes. People were appalled that she was always smoking while others were running around trying to figure out what happened. Google Heidi Anfinson.
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But my point is that in a moment of mental snapping she made a decision that put her in jail for a long time. I personally think she made a bad choice but the jury thinks she murdered her baby. Why would an otherwise sane person do either unless they had a nervous breakdown? And who is to say that we have been lucky enough to NOT have a complete nervous breakdown? I notice sometimes on this board people will fall off the deep end. We have seen people disappear-where did they go-why did
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they leave? Some have threatened suicide. Did they do it and is that why they are gone? Did they go commit a crime? Why did those boys at Columbine kill all those kids? Because they were sane? Or did they snap after being bullied? Were WE bullied? Was the psychological abuse enough for some of us to not be able to deal with reality? Is my roller coaster life due to the fact that the abuse coupled with hormones and brain chemistry why I ride a roller coaster? All good questions!
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Hi again Kell/OC,
Those are good questions. I did google and wow! Her lawyer didn't include post-partum depression/psychosis in her defense? Ok...don't get me going on lawyers!!
Thing is....you believe she made a poor choice, right? If so, there must be consequences for that choice and maybe it's reasonable to put such a person in jail. But 50 years? Up here.....some drunk drivers who kill people get 2 or 3 years. Tell me they didn't make a choice! I don't understand the legal system sometimes. I hope her post-conviction case brings forth the truth and does her justice.
I do think some people go crazy when they are tormented past the point of their tolerance. I guess we all have different tolerance levels, which is another tricky thing to determine. I bet we all have a breaking point but thankfully we don't all have to reach it.
I don't know where the people that were here went or what they did. I do wonder sometimes too.
Sending you another ((((((((((Kell))))))))))). Have you stayed in contact with your friend?
Sela
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Dear Kelly,
You seem to be a perceptive person-- Did anything seem" off" ? How close were you?
Love Ami
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As someone who lives with a serious mental illness I take issue with words like crazy and ideas like mental illness excusing or explaining murder and abuse.
Ted Bundy and Jeffrey Dahmer killed people because they were obsessed with themselves and their power over others and for sexual gratification.
Most people who have mental illness are not violent or abusive.
There is a lot of media-fuelled hysteria and ignorance surrounding mental illness, but the bottom line is whatever and whoever you are you are responsible for managing that and your own behaviour.
No matter what is wrong with you it doesn't excuse harming or killing others.
If a person believes they have a right to harm another it is their values which are off, and saying 'but I have a mental illness' doesn't cut it with me.
I know hundreds of people who have to live with mental illness who don't use it as an excuse and who work hard to minimise the impact on those around them and to live a good life.
As for 'snapping', and 'breaking points' it all depends what you personally feel is acceptable behaviour as to how far you go when provoked or frustrated or angry.
There are always choices in all the cases cited.
That's why it's important to keep and teach good values and clearly delineate abuse in our societies.
Sometimes I think we lose the balance between justice and sympathy, swinging wildly one way then another.
Violence is wrong.
Mental illness is manageable and treatable and not an excuse for murder or abuse even when it is a mitigating factor.
~W
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Well, here is the deal. I hadn't worked with Heidi in several years. Occasionally we would go to Jimmy's (the restaurant she worked at after Chi Chi's with me........................she was the best waitress, people would wait to be seated in her section.....you would turn to ask for a soda and it was there, in her hand................) and she would wait on us. Always friendly....but never really close. As close as you can be when you work with someone day in and day out for five years but then kind of lose contact..................so I ran into another former co-worker and he told me Heidi was expecting. Heidi and I are the same age so I felt for her being 38 and expecting a child (I had my last at 35 and it was not fun.)
So the question, did I see anything OFF with her? No. She was always fun loving. She liked to party as did the rest of us back then. She also smoked cigs a lot - too much. So her story was the phone rang and Jacob was in the bath. She went out on the deck and talked on the phone and smoked cigs. When she came in Jacob's face was under the water. What would you do? Call 911, right? Well, Heidi put Jacob in the car and drove to a lake and put his body in the lake under a couple of rocks. She went home and fell asleep. Her husband came home and asked where the baby was and she lied and said he should be right there....they acted upon the assumption that he had been kidnapped. Long story short..................she admitted what she did and they went to trial. They never used the post partum defense. She denied any wrong doing. But here is the rub. Heidi did not cry when they talked about Jacob. She only cried when they talked about her going to jail for years. She is not pretty and she smokes so the defense kind of vilified her for smoking. My thought is if she was beautiful and didn't smoke they would have been more lenient on her?? Maybe??
But as I googled her today they are appealing because they are sure something was off...............her general affect was down trodden. She was overwhelmed by the enormity of being a parent and I am sure she must have had some kind of post partum. I am remembering Marie Osmond was in her late 30s or early 40s when she had her last baby and she just took off.....she drove up the coast....left all her children. She and Brooke Shields would tell you it is a very real thing. As would anyone who has suffered from a real case of depression - not the blues but a full blown case. You cannot mind over matter it.
So all that got me to thinking about us on this board. Can we not snap out of it because our brain chemistry and wiring are still hard wired to think we are worthless and ugly and fat and have no voice, etc. Why can't we just snap out of it? Because we are sick maybe. Write mentioned her mental illness and stated that it doesn't give anyone the right to murder, etc. Exactly. We DO manage our illnesses with medication, therapy, etc. But what if you do not know you are ill? What if Heidi had no idea she had a bad case of Post Partum Psychosis...............you wouldn't realize it, right? Because you were in the midst of it. What if that baby just needed a little mouth to mouth resuscitation but in her altered state she started to freak out and rationalized an irrational thing??? Oh, and the part about drunk drivers only getting a couple years?? They chose to drink. She didn't choose to have a temporary mental illness. But the judicial system has her jailed until she is in her 80s......she never had a history of arrest. She was just a hard working waitress.....
And my referral to Bundy and Dahmer.................it seems to me that Dahmer was really screwed up and Bundy was evil. And so often they portray their families as normal but so many of us have "normal" families, at least that is what everyone thinks, right???
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(((((((((((((((((((((little Jacob)))))))))))))))))))))))) :cry:
I think Heidi was broken. Self absorbed. Untaught how to mother.
And maybe PPD.
But I believe it was a crime.
Sometimes it's hard for me to see "crime" as "crime" because
it's so easy to have compassion for perpetrators.
For me it's not an either/or universe anymore, it's full of
shades of gray. As to Heidi's illness, her own victimhood...
I don't know.
But it's really clear about Jacob, and she couldn't weep
for him, only herself. That sounds broken in the way N is.
No empathy.
That poor baby. Snuffed out. When so many people
would give a limb to have a baby to love.
Hops
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You are right, Hops.......poor baby Jacob.........and by the way, what is PPD???
Everyone I know wanting to hang Heidi. No one could see the good in the whole situation. The only reason I could is because I knew her and could not for a minute imagine her being that way. That is why even if it was criminal, I still think it was because she was not in her right mind. Her husband still stands behind her and in fact, THEY are still listed in the phone book. Same house. He shouldn't have left her that day.........I guess he feels guilty for not noticing that she was tired. You know, I also looked up that Munchasen by Proxy (sp?) and that is a weird one, as well. But that is another subject..
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Good for you for loving her regardless, Kel. That's the whole point anyway. She should be loved.
Punishment isn't supposed to cancel out love, but people are confused about that.
PPD = post-partum depression
PPP = post-partum psychosis (I think)
hugs
Hops
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From the Dateline story: http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/10644398/
(This is horrifying - warning for triggers do not read if you can't handle)
Prosecutors pointed out she’d lied to police dozens of times before her facade finally crumbled six hours after Jacob was reported missing— and she made a surprising proposal, to this detective.
(court transcript) Det. Bjornson: She then told me, or asked me, if I could find her a cigarette.
Prosecution attorney: What’d you tell her?
Bjornson: I stated I would try. And she said if I could find her one, she would help me.
Detectives testified it was shortly after Heidi Anfinson had gotten a cigarette, about 10:30 that night, that she finally led police to Saylorville lake.
In these waters, 16-miles from the Anfinson home, lay the object of their search.
Lt. Dawson: She pointed out to them an area where she said she’d put Jacob.
And what investigators found left even hardened veteran detectives, shaken.
Harvey: I went over and observed the baby. It appeared to me it was in one foot of water. It was laying on its back.
Lt. Dawson: There was no signs of life. There was no reason for us to move it.
Had Heidi Anfinson put her own son in a car, driven him to a lake almost 30 minutes away, placed baby Jacob underwater, and simply left him there?
Sarcone: There’s no question in my mind that that baby was submerged in that water, he was still alive, and that he was drowned in that lake.
There seemed to be every indication that Heidi Anfinson loved her child. Now, she was accused of purposely drowning him. What could have happened? Was there some medical explanation? Some post-partum depression that contributed to her actions? The defense would get its turn later. For now, the prosecution would move to tell the jury what really happened that day. Heidi Anfinson’s version, and then theirs.
Det. Bjornson: She stated that it was an accident.
The detective who gave Heidi the cigarette that helped crack the case interviewed her for a third time that day, after she led them to the lake.
She claimed it all started as she was giving Jacob a bath in an infant tub, in the kitchen sink, when the phone rang.
(Police tape) Heidi Anfinson: I took it out on the deck, which was asinine, because I wanted to smoke and I’d been trying not to smoke around the baby. And I had taken the sponge thing out because I just thought he’d fit in there better. And when I came back his face was turned to the side and he was blue. And I just, I freaked.
Bjornson: Was he underwater or above water when you found him?
Heidi Anfinson: His face was underwater. He had slipped down.
Police: What do you give me the approximate time from when you left Jacob until the time you came back to him and found him underwater?
Heidi Anfinson: Seven, ten minutes…
Sarcone: To leave a child for a telephone call, when you have a handheld phone, you can stay right there. But to go out and smoke cigarettes, that’s just reprehensible as far as I’m concerned.
But prosecutors then pointed out that Heidi told a different version of the story to her mother— not mentioning the cigarettes or phone call, but saying a dizzy spell caused her to leave the baby unattended.
And then, Heidi told her sister-in-law something else— that she may have just dozed off.
Sarcone: The story kept evolving and changing, and our argument was the truth never changes.
Hoda Kotb, Dateline correspondent: What happened that day?
Sarcone: There’s a million twisted reasons why someone kills someone. I think probably something happened there that maybe he was fussy and she may very well have just lost some control. If it was purely accidental, she knew how to call 911 and she didn’t do it.
In fact, the state pointed out that the week before Jacob’s death, his parents did call 911 in a panic, when the baby stopped breathing.
And the prosecutor went even further, implying that a lesion later found on Jacob’s brain led him to believe that the baby stopped breathing because maybe, just maybe, his own mother had tried to kill him that day too.
Sarcone: I think something happened happened with that child where he had a lack of oxygen.
Kotb: So you’re saying at six days, the baby suddenly somehow isn’t breathing, and then winds up dead at 15 days, all spells abuse?
Sarcone: I think you can connect those things together.
After implying Heidi was abusing her son, showing that the Anfinsons had called 911 before, and listing Heidi’s repeated lies, prosecutors then moved to the heart of their case.
Investigators testified there wasn’t nearly enough water in the infant tub for baby Jacob to have drowned as his mother claimed. One of America’s most prominent pathologists agreed.
(court transcript) Dr. Michael Baden, pathologist: In my opinion in 40 years, I’ve never seen a baby drown in that type of device.
Dr. Michael Baden has done 20,000 autopsies. He’s been called on to help investigate the assassinations of President Kennedy, and Martin Luther King.
He said it was clear to him that baby Jacob did not drown in the tub.
Why? An autopsy revealed microscopic plants from the lake deep in Jacob’s lungs. That meant, the doctor testified, that the baby was still breathing when his mother placed him in the lake.
It meant, he said, that Jacob’s death was a homicide.
And to back up that theory that Jacob died in the lake, the medical examiner who performed the autopsy, Doctor Francis Garrity, then took the stand.
The medical examiner said he found evidence that the baby’s heart was still beating in the lake. The autopsy showed bacteria from the lake in the baby’s heart blood; bacteria that were not in the tap water at the Anfinson home.
But the medical examiner wasn’t done. And what he was about to reveal only added to the prosecution case for murder: It turns out that on top of Jacob’s body, police found 2 large rocks, weighing more than 25 pounds. Rocks anchored the body in the water, put there with such force, the medical examiner said, that they caused a wound on the baby’s spine.
And there was something else. The baby was also tested for drugs and alcohol. There was, the ME explained, alcohol in the baby’s bloodstream. So much alcohol, he said, that it contributed to the baby’s death.
And the ME went on to say that the baby suffered some injuries caused by wildlife and some from another source: Gashes on the baby’s head and neck, apparently made by a sharp instrument.
Dr. Francis Garrity, medical examiner: It could be a piece of broken glass, it could be a kitchen utensil – anything that has the ability to cleanly incise the skin such as I see here.
Sarcone: Those all add up to me, to clearly demonstrate malice.
Kotb: Do you think she’s that malicious?
Sarcone: There’s no question in my mind.
With that, the prosecution wrapped up its case, claiming Heidi Anfinson was an unemotional, cold-blooded killer, who slashed her baby with a sharp instrument, and told lie after lie to cover up her actions.
Now, it was up to the defense: How could it prove to the jury that Heidi was no killer?
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Yep. That is why everyone convicted her and sent her to jail. If I didn't know her and read those transcripts I would totally agree. A cigarette smokin, awful baby killer. But if you continue to do research you will find out that expert witnesses testified against the other expert witnesses that said the baby did not have alcohol in its blood or microscopic organisms in his lungs. And the gashes on the baby's head? They say Heidi stabbed the baby. Someone else testified that the talons of eagles made the cuts.
Whatever the true story, imagine you knew the woman. Wouldn't you want to believe she freaked and tried to cover it up? One of our former co-workers speculated that she went out on the porch to smoke a joint.........can you imagine being high and finding your child under water? No matter what happened, whether she is a horrendous killer or had PPP (which is where I am leaning....) or if one lie led to another and to another and to another and she got herself screwed.......for years. I told my daughters no matter what happens, the truth is always the best bet. Covering up anything will come back to bite you. Also ALWAYS call 911. It would have been so much better for her to admit she was negligent then to think she could outwit the police and cover up an accident...or crime!!!
And as far as us...................was she sick in the mind? And do we have days when we are sick in the mind??? Can you mind over matter a brain that is chemically unbalanced?
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OC,
You sound very bright and clear thinking! It's horrendous to know someone who turns out to be capable of this (even if it turns out she was somehow mentally compromised). I feel so badly for you.
Good for you for using this instance to learn/teach others.
The only way to get the word out about ppd/ppp is education!
Dandylife
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Dear Kelly,
. I am so sorry about your friend .. It is a terrible thing for everyone involved --including people like you who knew her as a friend.It must be an awful shock.Maybe, there was more drug use than people knew.
I have thought about the topic of mental illness .I heard a pastor talking about mental health. He said that your mental health will be as "good" as it approximates what the Bible tells us to do as human beings. Another Bible teacher calls the Bible-- the Owner's manual for humans My family was agnostic. I found God b/c I hit bottom b/c of an N mother. However, I really began to heal when I started taking the "Scriptures" as "medicine. I took,"You shall know the truth and the truth will make you free" 8 months ago. I think that I have,finally, faced the truth of my mother.
Now, I am "taking,"Perfect love casts out fear". I have fear surrounding me all the time. It is unceasing.I have to believe that this Scripture will work the same way that the other one did.If God is not there for me ,life has no meaning anyway(IMO)
I am trying to follow the Bible as a path toward mental health. It tells us that we should not fear. Maybe the root of all mental illness is "fear? If you start dissecting it, fear seems to be at the bottom of mental dis---ease.I have so many fears.
For me, I am relying on the path of taking God's love for me as a "weapon" to fight fear.At the end, I want to be filled with love -- not fear. I think that they are opposite of each other.
Love Ami
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I
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Well, the whole thread was started when I got to thinking about brain chemistry, depression, post partum, etc. Periodically I look up the newest on Heidi although this all happened in 1998 I think....that means it has been 9 years and Heidi is now 47. Her family totally believes it was an accident and she freaked. If this is true, then Heidi is locked up unjustly.........that is a nightmare. Can you imagine if something like this happened to you? I mean think about it. If people know you have problems with an N and something happens to them....I guess you would be a likely suspect. This part of me - this anger and obsessing and wanting revenge makes me wonder..................are we setting ourselves up?? Just like Ami's thread about stomach problems. We live day in and day out with this angst within us.......................we are eaten up alive with the anxiety of knowing that we have been in this prison for years and there is no way out of it. We talk about reaching outside the prison and grabbing the keys which are within arms length but we often choose to stay in our prison. We have the right to get out and to get better. Wrong or right, Heidi does not have the right to leave her prison. She will be there until she is 80 or so. Think about that....you go in at 40 and get out at 80. That is truly the last half of your life. And if you are innocent, you have been to hell and back TWICE. Once because the baby you wanted and prepared for died by your neglegence...how can you live with yourself. And twice because you are labelled a vicious baby killer and have to live in prison for 50 years......your husband and family are there trying to love and support you but they do not have to live in prison. We are all here to love and support each other - but we do not have to live in that prison. We are free to make our minds to walk out. But then there is the brain chemistry angle............what if our brain will not let us out!!??
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Am: Here are some of my favorite Bible verses.
Delight yourself in the Lord and He will give you the desires of your heart.
Trust in the Lord with all your heart and lean not on your own understanding. In all your ways acknowledge Him and He will make your paths straight.
Do not be anxious about anything but in everything by prayer and petition with thanksgiving make your requests known to God. And the peace of God which transcends all understanding will guard your hearts and minds in Christ Jesus.
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What a thought overcomer! i look forward to all responses. Mental illness,or, a tremendous amount of stess, can make the best man, or, woman do strange things?
Sweetgrass
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Everything else aside, we had an experience with an N That is a terrible trauma.
now we are trying to overcome the pain and hurt and become as 'normal' as possible.
There were 5 Ns in my life--father, sister, son-in law (ex) and one of my own that sucked me in. [That's 4, but my grandson is living with his father and is being influenced to having the "N traits.]
I never thought of myself being menatally ill, but after all I has been through I truly beleived that I had to have a problem, in allowing these Ns to control me. There it is: lack of self-esteem & feelings of self-worth + more?
So now I am in therapy to fix myself asnd be more aware of things I never learned when young, to be more assertive, and live my life on my terms and no one else's.
I think that is clear enough and only a therapist can help to dissect my past and put me together.
Some people say, "Stop living in the past", but "An unexamined life is a wasted life".
Love Izzy
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Me too, CB:
I think there is a case to be made for guarding our thoughts. No action happens without first being thought. If a person spends a lot of time thinking: I hate this person, I wish they were dead, I could kill them--I think that's a really bad idea.
I think a person might confuse voicing anger (a healthy thing, part of reclaiming the self) with ruminating and obsessing on revenge, hatred and retaliation. In some ways the psychology movement (to which I owe so much) also has a dark side, in that untrammeled anger became almost worshipped as a sign of freedom. It's like indulging your dark side. It's good to see it and own it and now and then perhaps vent it. But not to live by it, imo.
love
Hops
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Profound C B! I think if Heidi is innocent of killing her baby but the chemical imbalance made her react in an irrational way then she is screwed. I cannot imagine she is like Andrea Y and felt compelled to kill her child. And I hope that us Co N people can learn from others that it is important to heft help if we need help.
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Millions of women live with post-partum depression and don't harm their children!
Millions of people live with mental illness and don't act violently!
This is an unpleasant thread for someone who has a mental illness to read, full of salacious details and maybe fun to engage in a tabloid news kind of way, but confusing issues and making one issue seem dependent on another when it isn't.
We've all 'snapped' and done things like let the baby cry, ignore our better judgement, maybe slap a child, drink too much, sleep with someone we shouldn't have....these are examples of what people do under duress.
I think that people who kill and abuse others are most often more in control than ever- they want rid of a problem and want to use the most expedient means to deal with it with little regard to the sufferign of others.
Nothing anyone has written here makes me feel sympathy with any of the perpetrators for their crimes, whatever their situations. Sympathise with them for being stupid or cruel or having whatever difficulties life has thrown at them- but not for the unfeeling choices they made in how to deal with their problems or the criminal acts they commit.
There's something nasty about this thread, especially the title.
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Dear WRITE,
I think that you are saying that mental illness and morality are two different things.I am sorry that this thread was hurtful to you, WRITE. Love Ami
I
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Write,
I had to read your post a couple of times before I got what you were saying! Thanks, YES! I hear you loud and clear.
It is unpleasant to read about, think about, to know that these things take place.
It's also unpleasant to think about all the mental illness that is out there. That someone is struggling with, dealing with, coping with - battling - overcoming? Whatever they are doing - they are LIVING with it. That is something courageous and difficult.
Thanks for chiming in, glad to hear your voice.
Dandylife
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Write-I absolutely meant on harm by this thread. I believe that some would classify depression a form of mental illness-clinical depression. I have been there and there is no snapping out of it. I also object when my mom uses gaslighting tactics by saying I am unstable and need counseling. I am not saying everyone here is mentally ill or that people with mental illness are murderers. What I am saying that SOME people have P P P and specifically my friend. Anything that alters the brain
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chemistry makes the person ill-in some way. My mom thinks I am bipolar. She thinks I am because I have mood swings. I have mood swings because I am hormonal. And what I think happened to my friend was hormonal to the point of snapping. So Write, please forgive me if I said something that hurt you-I have questions, that is all.
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*sigh*
Yes, clinical depression is a mental illness.
There are a number of classifactions of symptoms which are considered mental illness, the models vary between countries, eg. in Europe Personality Disorders have traditionally not been viewed in the same classification or as treatable.
However 'mental illness' is a model, part of the organic medical disease model, a model which is gradually being broken down by a more holistic approach to overall health.
Whether or not symptoms ( such as mood swings or hormonal imbalance ) are classified as illness depends on their pattern and severity.
The best model is one where overall physical emotional and mental wellbeing are taken into account and best practice is the minimum of medication or intervention to acheive or maintain that.
Mental illness is not only a bad thing, like many of the difficulties in life it also imparts empathy, creativity and strength.
I certainly see myself as LIVING with bipolar rather than suffering with it, and I appreciate fully the many gifts having it has brought to my life.
The mental illness and violence connection is not born out in qualitative or quantative studies overall, in fact people with mental illness are many times more likely to be victims of violence than perpetrators in situations where it renders them vulnerable.
The only connection between mental illness and morality is the same as any other factor- people do not deserve or receive it as a punishment as was thought in less enlightened times, nor is it any more an excuse for bad behaviour. People with mental illness can and on the whole do take responsibility for managing it and minimising its impact upon others.
Mitigating factors in any criminal case do not over-ride morality or the legality of behaviours.
Post-partum depression can sometimes result in psychosis but it is yet another 'interesting' diagnosis seized upon by the media and alluded to in a small number of high-profile cases when the reality is that most people who suffer with it get through it without being a threat to society or to their child.
The people who are the biggest threats to others are those with strong entitlement, accepting and desensitised ideas about violence, and lack of empathy. Whilst some of these may also have mental illness, and indeed personality disordered people often have more than one diagnosis especially depression or compulsive traits, the high number of people across societies over time who have mental illnesses and do not act violently suggests that is the norm, not the handful of publicised cases which come to mind when a specific illness or circumstance is mentioned.
Even with NPD as many of us know here- we might have had a bad time but we weren't married to Ted Bundy etc.
If we're going to generalise, let's at least generalise to the norm!
***
Enough said, I'm not upset with anyone, just on a bit of a mission with the whole subject, for which I apologise :)
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It is all good and I have to admit I was on a roll because I got a hold of a computer so I could just type everything that came to mind-usually I am on my phone which limits me to 500 characters. I also was thinking about my friend and cannot accept that she is a cold blooded killer! I want for it to all be a mistake but then her incarcaration is unthinkable!
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I want for it to all be a mistake but then her incarcaration is unthinkable!
people have to live with the consequences of their actions Overcomer.
If you truly are her friend then part of it will be helping her see a healthy overall view of what happened, not buying into her denial or projecting your own.
Even if she does/did have mental illness it does not in any way explain or excuse murdering a helpless dependent and trying to cover it up.
There's a lack of honesty sometimes because we don't want to accept the unpleasant fact that sometimes people do evil things, unkind, cruel, selfish things. Because people are sometimes then ill-treated when they have-which is also wrong- it's easy to go the opposite way and try to see things without judgement.
I think it's possible to judge your friend's actions and attitudes without totally writing her off as a person or a friend, though for me the boundary would be clear- does she accept responsibility for her child's death and her own actions, and does she in fact have empathy and remorse for that lost child.
~W
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Well another friend who is still close with H says all she talks about is missing J. She maintains that his death was accidental and that she freaked and the rest of the story is what got her jailed.
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These are all interesting stories. Sometimes I have wondered if I am mentally ill --- what with all the emotional trouble I seem to have. I guess I prefer to look at it like I am having very normal reactions to very abnormal circumstances. Anybody could get caught in the web of an N. And for those of us with abuse issues from early childhood. Protecting ourselves this way seems quite reasonable to me.
--mof4
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I* consider that I have mental issues because of all the traumas in my life, but do not consider myself insane nor mentally healthy
love and affection withheld
beaten by Dad and first man in my life
had illegitimate child and disgraced the family.
car accident--disabled
Daughter married an N
Her N is abusive to me (and her)
N cuts me from their lives
Daughter too weak-willed at the time to do anything.
I found my own N, but didn't know it--4 years of abuse.
That's enough for a lifetime, so I have mental issues.
Izzy
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Hey Mother of Four-have not gotten to know you yet but thanks for chiming in. It worries me that all the pressure and abuse have affected my stability over the years and I do not want to complicate my life with drugs or alcohol or anything else that will take away my objectivity.
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Sorry OC. Didn't think of those behaviors. I don't drink or use drugs at all so I don't readily think of that. Just referring to the crazy coping mechinisms that get created -- all the crazy that comes from the crazy-makers.
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sorry. probably sounded like I condone criminal behavior. I actually wasn't commenting on that stuff. Just the original question, "Are we mentally ill?" --mof
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mentally ill or not, violence arises when one feels that they have little or no other option to effectuate control over their own life. IMO, those with dysfunctional parents are more suseptible to becoming violent and/or abusive because of learned behavior and poor modeling coupled w/ feelings of hopelessness, low self-esteem, et cetera.
Does mental illness cause violence?
Mental illness plays no part in the majority of violent crimes committed in our society. The assumption that any and every mental illness carries with it an almost certain potential for violence has been proven wrong in many studies.
There is a relationship between violent behaviour and symptoms which cause the person to feel threatened and/or involve the overriding of personal control. Examples of these criteria include specific symptoms such as command hallucinations and feeling that one's mind is being dominated by outside forces.
Current research shows that people with major mental illness are 2.5 times more likely to be the victims of violence than other members of society. This most often occurs when such factors as poverty, transient lifestyle and substance use are present. Any of these factors make a person with mental illness more vulnerable to assault and the possibility of becoming violent in response.
Who is at risk?
The pattern of violence is remarkably similar whether a person is suffering with a mental illness or not. People with a mental illness, for instance, are no more likely than anyone else to harm strangers. Violent behaviour by anyone is generally aimed at family and friends, rather than strangers, and it happens in the home, not in public.
Typically, spouses, other intimates and other family members are the targets of violence committed by a person with mental illness. Most of this violence is committed by men and directed to women - as is the case in the population as a whole.
Factors affecting violence
The conditions which increase the risk of violence are the same whether a person has a mental illness or not. Throughout our society, alcohol and drug use are the prime contributors to violent behaviour.
Another important factor is a violent background. Individuals suffering from psychosis or neurological impairment who live in a stressful, unpredictable environment with little family or community support may be at increased risk for violent behaviour. The risk for family violence is related to, among other factors, low socioeconomic status, social stress, social isolation, poor self esteem and personality problems.
http://www.cmha.ca/bins/content_page.asp?cid=3-108 (http://www.cmha.ca/bins/content_page.asp?cid=3-108)
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P. S. for myself, I have a great amount of sympathy for anyone who feels so helpless and out of control that they resort to violence although I wouldn't tolerate that behavior from anyone in the least. I've been both the abuser and the abused so I'm not prepared to condemn anyone for their choices - I don't see myself as "different" only fortunate. All of us will resort to certain behaviors so long as we remain unaware that we have other choices.
People who are in pain make painful choices and usually end up hurting themselves and those who are closest to them, whether it is as "grave" as murder or as "benign" as hurtful words.
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I have a great amount of sympathy for anyone who feels so helpless and out of control that they resort to violence
my point is that people don't resort to violence out of helplessness and lack of control, violence is the result of a belief that violence is okay as a solution, that someone is entitled to be violent and that the consequences of their violence to others are not as important as the gratification of self.
Yes, the people add to their own pain of course, when they are caught and the consequences are imposed from without, that does not explain or excuse abuse.
They can easily throw up their hands and try to explain and justify their actions, and we may even have sympathy with some of their perspective if we have compassion. It doesn't make any difference to the way violence needs to be viewed.
All of us will resort to certain behaviors so long as we remain unaware that we have other choices.
I think a clearer societal 'message' of 'violence is wrong' would help with that, instead of the mixed and coded messages we use now.
However the implication that people with mental illness cannot control themselves or have increased violent impulses is clearly a misperception.
whether it is as "grave" as murder or as "benign" as hurtful words.
for the Christians here Jesus said 'it has been said thou shalt not kill, I say when you show another contempt you commit murder in your heart'.
The willingness to not see another as entirely human or equal to oneself, to prioritise self over another, and to be willing to hurt the other- this is the root of violence and abuse.
It's not about having control of one's own life so much as wanting control over another's.
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mof4- I was the one who jumped into the drugs and alcohol thing - nothing you said. I just think that sometimes when we are so stressed and then we exacerbate those problems with drugs or alcohol, we are just setting ourselves up. When my other friend speculated that Heidi was high - that is what got me to thinking about that.
Izzie: Same here. I do not consider myself mentally ill OR completely ok. I believe the brainwashing and abuse I have suffered has made me second guessing myself a lot. Also, I agree that when we are around crazy making behavior we do indeed feel crazy.
Write: I also agree that just because someone is diagnosed with a mental illness, does not predispose them to violence. I know many a person who has NOT been diagnosed but have huge anger issues. I would be more aware of them and their behavior than someone who has a bonafide mental illness and is managing it with medications or diet.
And Guest....I guess I do not have sympathy for those people who cannot control their anger and resort to violence. I know it really upset me when my ex would punch a hole in the wall or bust a bunch of stuff....I figured if he could get that angry, maybe he could do something to hurt me. I also saw road rage in him as well as my current husband. I certainly would never condone that behavior - I believe people who get caught up in road rage are setting themselves up to be shot at a stoplight!!! :shock:
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"It's not about having control of one's own life so much as wanting control over another's."
Yes, Write, and this assumes that the person has the ability to be logical and make a logical choice.
Have you read, "We need to talk about Kevin?" by Lionel Shriver?
It's a novel in journal form about a mother whose son committed an atrocity on the Columbine scale. She wracks her brain, blames herself, etc.
Why, how could he do it?
There have been numerous studies done recently proving that the teenage brain does not have the capacity to make logical decisions like adult brains do.
What about people who have low IQ's?
There are people on death row with very low IQ's and there are always outrages before the final injection or lever is pulled.
I think Overcomer has brought up a lot of great questions. I don't think she really thinks the answer(s) is going to come here from this board. Awareness is key.
To educating the masses about mental illness. To erasing the stigmas that still exist.
To educating the masses about PPD. To getting the word out about bringing babies to a hospital to surrender with no fear of prosecution as long as the baby is safe.
I am sad for the baby that died. I think only one person expressed sympathy and outrage about the baby's death. That is so so sad. It's outrageous. Where are the advocates for the innocent? The truly and totally innocent?
It's a horrendous, horrendous issue. There are no answers here. Only more questions. And an urge to educate.
Dandylife
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I know many a person who has NOT been diagnosed but have huge anger issues.
we use this label now as though it somehow excuses and explains rage and violence.
It simply means person is prepared to act out their emotions with disregard to the consequences to others.
What about people who have low IQ's?
yes there are people on death row with low IQ, just as there are people with high IQ.
Sometimes people are on death row whose mitigating factors have not been fully explored, or who have experienced unfairness in the justice system.
Many people myself included would argue that death row in itself is a form of institutionalised violence, and an inappropriate way of trying to administer justice.
the teenage brain does not have the capacity to make logical decisions like adult brains do.
yes, and some teenagers do stupid and irresponsible things sometimes, yet many don't.
There are no answers here. Only more questions.
No, there are answers Dandylife.
The answers are that human life is sacrosanct and no one has the right to take it or hurt it.
If a person does that they need to take responsibility for what they did and where they can make amends and change, change themselves and their society.
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"No, there are answers Dandylife.
The answers are that human life is sacrosanct and no one has the right to take it or hurt it.
If a person does that they need to take responsibility for what they did and where they can make amends and change, change themselves and their society."
I agree, Write, as a "logical", "normal IQ", "mentally normal" person.
I think Overcomer is speaking to the fact that there seem to be many people out there who are not in those categories - and how should they be treated. If death row is not an option, what is? How to reach the minds of the people who have done the unspeakable? should they BE categorized? If so, how?
When will it stop? How will it stop? CAN it stop? This is larger than any of us here.
These are the questions there are no pat answers to.
Dandylife
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It's not about having control of one's own life so much as wanting control over another's.
Only a person who feels they have absolutely no control over their own life wants to control anothers life.
Anyone who seeks to hurt another does so because of their own internal pain, IMO
Christianity teaches us that there is no "big" or "little" sin.
I don't think anyone suffers abuse on a daily basis as a child and emerges mentally well. Perhaps funtionally, capable and able but not "well".
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Did ya'll see this latest?
http://news.aol.com/story/_a/internet-obsessed-couple-let-kids-starve/20070715195409990001
Headline: Internet-Obsessed Couple Let Kids Starve
Dandylife
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That is just an awful, terrible, unbelievable, sorry, story of abuse!!
Izzy
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Yes, but in this case, the children were found and helped in time.
Dandylife
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I agree, Write, as a "logical", "normal IQ", "mentally normal" person.
I think Overcomer is speaking to the fact that there seem to be many people out there who are not in those categories
I don't believe anyone is 'normal' or 'logical' any more than anyone else!
I work with people every day who are mentally impaired, their behaviour might seem strange at times but mostly they are just differently normal for them!
'Us and 'the other'.
How many people here have said over and over 'oh no, I don't have a mental illness' as though to even suspect they might would be unthinkable.
That's the taboo of it speaking inside us.
This is larger than any of us here.
we often don't tackle these subjects except as salacious debating topics or something akin to a 'penny-dreadful' because we don't want to see that we are all the same and all equally responsible for self and the society we live in.
Years ago it was too difficult and too dreadful to contemplate that children got raped and molested in their own homes or churches by otherwise apprently normal responsible fathers and clergy....then we went through a brief era where well-meaning people bandied the topic around hysterically and false allegations were added to the mix....now we have a more balanced view that child protection is the main issue of the topic, and prevention policies are becoming norms, with increased education and awareness of what constitutes abuse but understanding that we need a situation where no one will ignore a child in need, but also parents and childcarers feel comfortable to be close to children.
Just because it's a difficult issue doesn't mean we shouldn't tackle it, and brave people and good organisations do tackle it and try to come up with balanced outcomes.
My whole objection to this thread has been the idea that the people who do unspeakably bad things- evil things for want of an unpopular notion- are mentally ill.
They might well be, or have 101 other problems. That does not mean the rest of the population with any of those problems do those things, they don't.
Yet every time someone commits an atrocity we delve into mental illness as though it's some kind of universal explanation.
Must be. How else could we explain it.
I'll explain it- it's when people's lack of foresight joins with their stupidity and cruelty and unwillingness to take responsibility for themselves or deny themselves something.
I worked with criminals for years and the one thing that was always in the forefront of my mind was how pointless so many of the actions were, overall, even the big ones always boiled down to small inconsiderations.
So yes, I agree with this: Christianity teaches us that there is no "big" or "little" sin.
and coincidentally my scripture reading today was:
whoever is unjust with very little will also be unjust with much.
( Luke 16 )
The more well you are when you're well, the more well you'll be when you're sick/stressed/drugged/whatever other factor affects ability to make decisions....
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Write,
Well said. Thank you for your insight on this topic... I've never felt so close to an understanding of these difficult issues.
Just a disclaimer -
I do not believe that "mental illness" is demonic in nature, but evil often is.
I do not believe that "mental illness" causes people to commit crime.
I do believe that evil is at the root of all criminal behavior and that evil is always a choice.
Hope
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Well I would have to say that I have learned a lot from all your points and counter points!
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Holey cheese, Kelly.
This is such an awful story....
I can't imagine doing what Heidi did.... under any circumstances.
Post Partum Depression included.
Just plain'ol accidental death....
I can't.
When I read the part about the lake bacteria in that little guy's lungs, I could hardly read on.
Do you think she put him in that lake while he was alive?
Do you think he had alcohol in his system?
Do you think he had injuries from a sharp object on his neck and head, caused by Heidi?
I can't imagine it, but I don't think anyone else did those things.... if they happened.
It sounds like she may have been suffering from some psychotic break, not depression.
Part of me thinks that maybe she's a very charming sociopath, who was very popular in her job, but couldn't deal with caretaking another human being.
Does that sound awful? That's what occurred to me.
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Hi Kelly,
Didn't A&E do a story on this case? (sorry if this question has already been answered).
I'm sure I saw it on TV.
In any case, what an awful story!
(((((((((((((KELLY)))))))))))))
Bigalspal
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Well I believe they disproved all those things but by saying them they made her out to be an evil person and that is why she is in jail. Maybe because I know her I do not believe she did anything other than cover up an accident. The case has been on several different Tv shows.
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Maybe because I know her I do not believe
we used to call this 'going native' when I was a social worker, identifying with the client to the point of losing objectivity.
We all have more sympathy for people we know and care about, and are more willing to see their side.
I had a colleague years ago who was accused of child-molesting; I supported him to the point of becoming his friend and visiting and writing to him in prison and campaigning to redress imbalances in the justice process. He later pleaded guilty to all charges for a reduced sentence. Since then I would show compassion and even friendship to people but I retain my neutral and objective postion especially when a case is one person speaking against another and 'the truth' may never fully be known.
It sounds like she may have been suffering from some psychotic break
even psychosis has no general relationship to violence. Studies show that increased violence in schizophrenia- the most serious cause of psychosis in the mentally ill- is due to small sub-groups of violent patients or prisoners rather than an overall pattern. Most people with schizophrenia are not dangerous to others because of violence, though they are an increased risk to themselves and others through poor judgement or impulse control.
Causes of psychosis can be substance misuse, illnesses whcih damage the brain, lack of sleep, unmanaged mental illness, stress and trauma.
My personal experience of psychosis is a misunderstanding and anxiety about what is happening, for example hearing voices which are the normal internal dialogue of the mind but misperceiving them as coming from someone else.
Actually I had an interesting experience once of hearing wolves howling during a severe manic episode. I kept talking about them and my doctor arranged a hospital bed thinking I was getting worse. Then one of the neighbours mentioned that a dog with 8 puppies was beign kept in a nearby garage and disturbing people with the continual howling!
Psychosis is extremely stressful and anxiety-provoking for the person with symptoms and those around them and requires special and sensitive handling and assessment/treatment of causes.
I have known all my life that I don't think quite the same as other people, I don't really see it as a problem so long as it doesn't impact others with difficult behaviours. It leads to increased creative abilities for me. However I am not wired to handle stress or distress, I think bipolar is most often triggered by that and I am coming to understand it as a limitation too, learning where to set boundaries and just how much I can cope with.
I think young people should get lessons in how to manage their lives while they're at school, couldn't deal with caretaking another human being seems very common in these sad cases.
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They said she was pulling out her leg and pubic hair right before she gave birth which they said she had never done. I just remember a giggly girl who was funny and happy. You are right about being objective but when talking to her best friend she says H just panicked and tried to cover up her neglect. I wonder if maybe he was not dead and they could have revived him if she had called 911.
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I just remember a giggly girl who was funny and happy
and that's a part of her. Everyone has good points, even the N people who have appalled us so much are wonderful in some ways!
However her behaviour with regards to this baby is not acceptable, whether it was an accident, a murder- which incidentally all the evidence points to, or somewhere in between.
She did nothing to help this baby and everything to hasten his untimely death.
And because she looks so 'normal' and there are 'normal-looking' people fighting for her defence she is getting excuses made for her.
If you found your baby in any kind of state, as we all have at different times, and panicked the over-riding panic is to make things right not destroy the infant.
Even with post-partum psychosis the worst behaviour might be to do nothing, not go throw him in a lake then lie about what happened.
If she was psychotic it seems like it cleared up very quickly....symptoms of psychosis are hallucinations, insomnia, strange speech and affects, agitation, bizarre feelings and rationalisations. It is not generally characterised by calm rational responses.
Kelly even if this lady did have post-partum psychosis she still killed her child, and whilst that might mitigate to some extent it doesn't chnage the facts, or the biggest factor for me- that the majority of women deal with these illnesses and stress without killing their children.
Mental illness does not cause violence, and does not excuse violence. I wish advocates of mental health reform would recognise and spell this out.
If people with mental illness want to be treated equally and fairly and to lose the taboo of the topic they need to be responsible!
We went through years of substance abuse being used as an explanation and excuse for crimes, instead of people having the responsibility for their own behaviour and managing their own lives handed to them; all it did was clog up the court systems and help no one, least of all the addicted person in denial about what they did and especially not the people trying to live with the consequences of their actions.
We have mixed messages in our society about violence and about compassion, as if they are either/or situations.
It is quite possible to help people face the truth of what they did and still show them love or compassion- in fact more so than when everyone joins in the denial and instigates a smokescreen....
This mother didn't cope with the responsibility of a newborn, that is clear, and more education for what to do in those circumstances would help. We can all help new mothers by being supportive and not placing so many unrealistic expectations on them.
However I wonder if it is easier in a way in our society for a woman to be convicted of a murder than it is to stand up to everyone around and say- I don't want this.
There is indeed a model of mental illness which suggests that it is an 'escape' from reality. A kind of internal choice....
Very very sad case, and rest in peace little baby, may your death be our lessons:
have you ever seen
a seed fallen to earth
not rise with a new life
why should you doubt the rise
of a seed named human
RUMI
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Well I believe they disproved all those things but by saying them they made her out to be an evil person and that is why she is in jail. Maybe because I know her I do not believe she did anything other than cover up an accident. The case has been on several different Tv shows.
If that child was in the water for a short time and there was lake bacteria in his heart and lungs..... if she put him under those rocks because she thought he was brain damaged from lack of oxygen... if he was brain dead from lack of oxygen..... if he was dead and not breathing.... I still don't understand a mother premeditating the abandonment of her infant child. The simple act of LEAVING that child alone is unthinkable to me.
I remember seeing a gorilla mama on tv with a dead infant. She carried it around and tried to wake it up for days.... until it started to fall apart and only then did she abandon it.
Someone would have to have pried my baby from my arms, eventually, no matter what killed my baby. I'd want her safe and with me in the light and I'd grieve like a wounded animal. I woudn't sit and be calm and maybe that's not fair of me to judge this woman by any standard of feelings I might have. I'm certain it is not.
I will say this.... I'm a basket case when I'm depressed and stress like she must have been under would have driven me over the edge of calm. She was calm. She was sitting there smoking cig after cig looking at pictures while everyone around her was frantic.
WAS she frantic in her head and wishing God would just strike her dead? Was she screaming in her head, like I would have been? I would have drugged myself out of reality if I was her. Maybe thats what she was using the cigarettes for?
She did trade information...... about her baby's location.......
for a cigarette.
Or at least the promise of one.
That just speaks of cold selfish need for nicotene.... for her hands to do what they wanted to do.... for the familiar ritual of lighting and breathing in smoke and handling the cigarette. The universal actions of people under stress. Smoking.
But maybe those cigarettes were what she used to calm herself with? Maybe she was beside her self in her head, with grief and confusion and regret? Maybe.... just maybe.... she didn't put her infant in that cold water, while he was alive (brain dead or not from lack of oxygen) and weight his tiny body down with big heavy rocks she had to hunt and fetch, lift and aim and drop on his tiny form.
Holy cheese...... impossible for me to fathom doing that, much less thinking about it and carrying out that plan while dealing with the grief of losing my baby.
My husband might come home and find an insane woman sitting and rocking a dead child to her breast, humming and nurturing it until it was pried out of her hands but..... I would never abandon my baby..... couldn't hardly leave that child in a burial vault above ground where the bugs couldn't get her. I still wouldn't want her left alone in the dark and cold and wet. I couldn't get past the realization that she would be taken FROM me eventually. If I went completely beserko, bc of PPD or some breakdown.... I can only imagine myself taking my baby somewhere where I could be with her a bit longer, before they took her from me, and i never saw her again.
This is making me so so sad. I don't see how poor H can get out of her conviction. And I'm not basing it on the fact that she smoked and wasn't classically beautiful. Her lack of strange behavior leading up to bizaaro behavior and a cover story that changed and changed and changed..... and she was smart and quick and intelligent, funny and capable.
Why was she so darned stupid with changing up her story to everyone? Why not just tell the story as it was, once she got that cigarette and showed them where her baby was? Why tell different versions? Maybe she did lose her mind?
Maybe she belongs on a mental ward, not in prison?
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Boy that screams of what we would all call rational-and I agree, why would anyone in their right mind do that? No one would. Anyone with any sense at all would immediately call 911. But that is what I am talking about-it seems like insane behavior-who in their right mind do that? And then sell your freedom for a cig?
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I mean it seems irrational!
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Hi OC,
You sure are right about it being irrational!
But....as I was reading your words, I had an awful thought...I wonder how close I came to the same fate of that poor baby?! WHAT, you say? Could my Nmother do that to me?
Yes, I think she could've! She has told me MANY times that if abortion was legal in 1957 I WOULD NOT BE ALIVE TODAY! I truly believe she would've done the same thing to be had it not have been for her mother, my grandmother. She has HATED me with an intensity that I find hard to fathom. She IS mellowing out with age. I've only heard the abortion remark once in the last 2 yrs. I SHUDDER to think what could've happened to me if my NMother would've had a meltdown like the mother in the story! How about you folks? Do YOU think you are lucky to be alive, too??
Something to think about!
Bigalspal
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Oh how do you cope with that? I know my mom was more concerned with herself than I and she called me ugly, but I never got the feeling she wanted me dead!
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YOY PEOPLE are how I cope! I'm really MUCH better now!
HUGS to ALL,
Bigalspal
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what I am talking about-it seems like insane behavior who in their right mind do that?
is this just a word/phrase you are using here?!
The word 'insane' comes from Latin 'insanus' or not healthy; however it has Victorian connotations which make people with mental illness wince when it is used in the context of mental illness.
sell your freedom for a cig?
that is exactly what I mean about values and what I said before:
I'll explain it- it's when people's lack of foresight joins with their stupidity and cruelty and unwillingness to take responsibility for themselves or deny themselves something.
I worked with criminals for years and the one thing that was always in the forefront of my mind was how pointless so many of the actions were, overall, even the big ones always boiled down to small inconsiderations.
To blame the addiction though is also wrong- millions of new mothers smoke and may indeed be indirectly bringing minor harm to their child, but would not take that to the ultimate neglect and abuse shown here.
Do YOU think you are lucky to be alive, too??
my mother smoked and drank and was very neglectful and unpleasant, still- we all managed to be fed and clothed and schooled and to survive our childhood!
The abortion issue is another topic, and what a hateful thing to say to a child, but I am guessing that a person who chooses to have an abortion isn't equating it to the murder or neglect of a developed baby which has actually been born.
These are difficult topics and I hope they do not give pain to anyone who stumbles into these threads or whose lives have been touched by these issues.
I for one have said all I can on mental health without banging a drum!
Love and peace to all.
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((((Write))))
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Hi Write,
Sorry for my part in making you feel uncomfortable. I my intention was not to harm anyone who stumbles across this board. I would never do that, because I was one of those who "stumbled across this board" & it saved my life!
Really i'm sorry. (((((((((((WRITE)))))))
Bigalspal
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Write: I am sorry. I guess when you hear offhanded comments like "she must be insane" etc. you take it personally. Maybe like it is not politically correct to call my autistic daughter a "retard." (Like my teenaged daughters have done!!)
Yes, the abortion issue is horrific and I am sorry anyone's mother would say that to them......
But speaking of that...............H could have aborted poor baby J just a few weeks before he was born and nothing would have happened to her - "a mother's right......."
Oh well, the point of this whole thread was to point out that when you are brainwashed or abused, and it effects you emotionally and mentally, is there a point where an abusive person can send someone over the brink? I know it went off on Heidi and Dahmer and Bundy but I really meant us. How much abuse can one person handle before they are forever effected? Maybe not Narcissistic - but full blown physical, sexual and emotional abuse (although I would argue that I had full blown emotional abuse through my Nmom.........................psychological abuse.....)
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You know, I'm now afraid to post on this board. I've been thinking about it all day. I never meant to offend anyone by my abortion comment, but it WAS said to me & it is my pain.
For years I've been looking for someone, anyone to understand what I went through. Now, I guess I'm afraid what I talk about will upset someone. I'm trying not to over react, but now I'm not sure what I can safely talk about.
Bigalspal
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You know, I'm now afraid to post on this board. I've been thinking about it all day. I never meant to offend anyone by my abortion comment, but it WAS said to me & it is my pain.
For years I've been looking for someone, anyone to understand what I went through. Now, I guess I'm afraid what I talk about will upset someone. I'm trying not to over react, but now I'm not sure what I can safely talk about.
Bigalspal
(((((((Bigalspal)))))))
I don't think anyone here would want it any other way but for you to feel free to talk about whatever is on your mind and heart.
I really don't.
And I'm so sorry you have had to live with the cruelty of your mother's statements to you... I can't imagine that.
With love,
Hope
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I think you should talk about whatever it is you need to talk about. If people get offended, then I guess they do. We are all working thru such deep and complex stuff. Too bad we can't be more tolerant of each other ---cut each other some slack. I hope you are not afraid to post.
This thread got pretty deep and diverse and edgy. Maybe we should scrap it and start of with a better subject. One that will lift us to higher ground.
And bigalspal, I don't have much experience. But I am sorry for your pain. Sorry things were said to you. And I am a good listener sometimes. You are welcome on my porch anytime. Want some lemonade? :P
--mof4
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I used the word insane in at least one of my posts. I didn't think twice about it until Write pointed out where that word came from and how it makes people with mental illness feel to see it used lightly.
I didn't know and now I do because she said something.
Write can correct me here but, I'm sure she didn't want anyone to stop posting.... she just wanted to enlighten people and share her own views.
That's how I took it and I think harder before I hit send.
That doesn't mean I won't step on toes in the future but.... I'll think about the message and try not to take it personally.
Bigalspal....Please don't stop posting. You didn't mean to step on any toes. You shared your pain and your experience is something you may share here. Your mother's treatment of you was cruel and unfair and I'm sorry that happened to you ((((pal))))
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That is right, Bigalspal...............I find myself venting a lot.................and my vents are not always popular with some....others understand completely. I want to hear about your stuff and I want you to hear about mine. I do not regret this thread at all. I think there was some pretty good stuff posted here! I still feel sorry for my friend regardless.
Keep a posting........
Kelly
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Thanks CH & MOF,
I really appreciate the kind words. It just freaked me out. I thought this was the place to finally let it all out. I promise I never ment to hurt Write with my statements. I just wanted for once in my life to tell it to someone else. You see, I've been so ashamed for so many years that I had a mom who would hate me so much that she would tell me that, That I've only told 2 people. My husband & adult daughter. And they can't really understand.
Now I think I might be more damaged than the rest of you guys. KWIM. This is NOT a victim statement. I'm just wondering if I've told TOO MUCH & freaked you guys out?
Bigalspal
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Thanks CH & MOF,
I really appreciate the kind words. It just freaked me out. I thought this was the place to finally let it all out. I promise I never ment to hurt Write with my statements. I just wanted for once in my life to tell it to someone else. You see, I've been so ashamed for so many years that I had a mom who would hate me so much that she would tell me that, That I've only told 2 people. My husband & adult daughter. And they can't really understand.
Now I think I might be more damaged than the rest of you guys. KWIM. This is NOT a victim statement. I'm just wondering if I've told TOO MUCH & freaked you guys out?
Bigalspal
No!! no no... and Lighter said it better than I could, but I am so sure that's not at all what Write meant. Sheesh, I hate to speak for someone else (sorry, Write!) but I just know that wasn't at all her intent.
Okay, some of the stuff on this thread did threaten to set off my own personal "freak me" alarm, but then I just skim over it. Same with all threads.
I'm also glad that Write spoke up, because I use several words about which I'll think twice from now on... and that's a good thing!
It has nothing to do with abortion.
Love,
Hope
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I guess I'm just very fragile right now. I hate that about myself. I guess it's because I'm so new to this board & to this experience. I don't want to be easily offended! I'm damaged by endless critcisms from my past. I guess I wouldn't be here if I wasn't, huh?
You guys know each other so much better than you know me. I'm the "new kid on the block" So, if you say Write didn't mean to hurt me, then I'll just chalk it up to a bad day. Thanks for all the real honest emotional help everyone has given me! I'm still a little shook up, but I'll keep watching the board & try to post again soon.
Love,
Bigalspal
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Ya know..... no one meant to hurt Write's feelings, yet it happened.
Everyone here is vulnerable, to some extent, and learning to deal with it.
Keep this in mind and try to understand, not react. I promise you.... I have to remind myself to do that all the time.
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That is true. Every one of us is wounded to a certain extent. I used to be a real people pleaser but now I do not always think before I speak. There has been more than once I have opened my mouth and inserted my foot-BUT I would never deliberately hurt someone. I totally intimidate our new employees but they soon know that I am an outspoken sweetheart!
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Dear Bigal pal,
I have not been following this thread too closely. When I saw your pain,, i wanted to chime in.
First of all, you are here to find your voice.Your voice is important It is crucial for your survival-- body , soul and spirit.
Don't let anyone take away your goal-- which is to heal. Don't let anyone make you go back in to your shell. Don't let anyone push you back in to shame.
You deserve to be here and to find out the real you-- under all the N lies.
Don't let another person-- here- or in real life-- push you back to being the abused girl without a voice Love Ami
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Bigalspal,
Listen I respect anyones belief and choices. It is theirs the same as I have mine that may be different but it does not make mine right and theirs wrong. It's just mine.
Don't be afraid to post what you want. I am pro -choice and I did not for one minute feel offended by what you said.
I really understood what you are saying with my beliefs and all.
I'm glad your here and your mother is a mean, mean, miserable person to ever have said that to you. I am sorry. That must of cut like a knife.
I am not freaked out Big. I am glad you are speaking.
I do understand and respect you also Write.
Deb
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Thank you Ami for the very kind words. You have hit the nail on the head. I find myself wanting to retreat back into my shell. I hate confrontation! I know, as someone just mentioned, that we are ALL hurting to a certain degree, so i guess there's bound to be confrontation. All day long I was telling myself; "Look! You haven't been on this board for a MONTH & you've made someone upset!" STUPID STUPID STUPID. Yeah, I realize I type in capps alot. I guess it's just all this repressed emotion coming out, so please look over that.
Alot of posts I look at before I hit send & think :Boy, you are so whiny! Try to be POSITIVE!
But, I'm not at that stage yet. I hope to be soon. I try to give others positive feedback.
Right now, I"M HATING ALL THIS ATTENTION TO ME!
But, the other part of me says tell them you are hurting. Don't leave the best thing that's happened to you in forever. ARRRGGG! I am trying so hard not to hit the delete button. I don't wan't to post this. Dang it! I am not a victim! I don't NEED all this reassurance. STOP IT!
GHrow up! People sometimes disagree, right? And here comes the "Get Over It!" that i've been hearing all of my life. Now, THIS IS NOT WHAT I THINK YOU ARE SAYING. This is what I'm saying to myself. I'll be OK. I have to be, right? I can't crumble over every little thing that is said to me. That's the OLD me. I want to change. I want to be different. I had a friend that kept telling me that I've got to "get a thick skin". DUH? Like I don't know that.
I guess it's one step up & 2 steps back.
OK, people, it's taking alot of courage to post this. But here goes.
Love,
Bigalspal
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Al..... I'm so glad you hit send: )
You need to learn to rise up and observe everything going on around you, without being flooded and overcome by emotions.
It's your job to NOT be overcome. I didn't realize that until about 10 years ago. I was over 30, lol... in any case... when I paid for that information at a Therapist's office.
You're learning to cope. You're learning to speak your thoughts and stand up for yourself. Everyone here is. Sometimes we step on toes. Mostly, we learn from the discussions. ::shrug::
You're as welcome here as anyone and I gotta tell ya.... I understand needing the board's support. I need it too.
You stand your ground and keep posting. Learn to view your situations from a distance, miles maybe, and don't react. Don't freak out. Observe and think about the advice you'd give a friend in your situation. Feelings aren't wrong or right... they just are. Yours included.
I think you'll start feeling better soon. Reacting less as you learn more about yourself. Feeling better more often. Gaining tools to problem solve..... creating new habits and extinguishing unhealthy ones. It's a process. You're on your way: )
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I forgot to thank Deb for her encouragement. Thanks! And thanks to everyone. I'm ready to move on. I'm just going to forget anything happened.
I'm just so tired of drama. Caused by me or someone else. I knew it was wrong to post that original complaint, but the "child" in me couldn't resit. I knew the S***t would hit the proverbial fan & it did, all centered around my "hurt feelings:. Just felt like a fool once it got started.I'm learning from reading other posts that when I do that, I'm creating what's familiar. What I learned as a child. And ya know what? I did just that. My NMother caused the same kind of crap. Yuck!
Ok, if it's okay with you folks, I'm OVER it. :)
Love,
Bigalspal
PS: Hey look! Not so many capps! For me that means I'm calm. Yea me! 8)
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Ummmmmm.... ok, Al.
But not Ok if you're referring to your original post about your feelings on your mother's cruel behavior.
I saw nothing innapropriate with that post and I think you should rethink your position if you're "original complaint" was about your mother's hurtful words to you?
If your talking about your post where you thought about not returning to the board, you were just speaking your feelings. You won't be the first and you sure won't be the last.
Nuff said.
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Hi Lighter,
No, I was talking about when I overeacted to Write's post. The one where I said I didn't feel safe to post on this board anymore. That's the one I regret.
Love,
Bigalspal
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Sorry Lighter,
Getting ahead of myself. I see you did mention that on your last post. Sorry!
Like you said, Nuff Said!
Love,
Bigalspal