Author Topic: Are we mentally ill?  (Read 17145 times)

Overcomer

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Re: Are we mentally ill?
« Reply #60 on: July 18, 2007, 08:28:36 AM »
Well I believe they disproved all those things but by saying them they made her out to be an evil person and that is why she is in jail.  Maybe because I know her I do not believe she did anything other than cover up an accident.  The case has been on several different Tv shows.
Kelly

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WRITE

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Re: Are we mentally ill?
« Reply #61 on: July 18, 2007, 11:30:58 AM »
Maybe because I know her I do not believe

we used to call this 'going native' when I was a social worker, identifying with the client to the point of losing objectivity.

We all have more sympathy for people we know and care about, and are more willing to see their side.

I had a colleague years ago who was accused of child-molesting; I supported him to the point of becoming his friend and visiting and writing to him in prison and campaigning to redress imbalances in the justice process. He later pleaded guilty to all charges for a reduced sentence. Since then I would show compassion and even friendship to people but I retain my neutral and objective postion especially when a case is one person speaking against another and 'the truth' may never fully be known.

It sounds like she may have been suffering from some psychotic break

even psychosis has no general relationship to violence. Studies show that increased violence in schizophrenia- the most serious cause of psychosis in the mentally ill- is due to small sub-groups of violent patients or prisoners rather than an overall pattern. Most people with schizophrenia are not dangerous to others because of violence, though they are an increased risk to themselves and others through poor judgement or impulse control.

Causes of psychosis can be substance misuse, illnesses whcih damage the brain, lack of sleep, unmanaged mental illness, stress and trauma.

My personal experience of psychosis is a misunderstanding and anxiety about what is happening, for example hearing voices which are the normal internal dialogue of the mind but misperceiving them as coming from someone else.

Actually I had an interesting experience once of hearing wolves howling during a severe manic episode. I kept talking about them and my doctor arranged a hospital bed thinking I was getting worse. Then one of the neighbours mentioned that a dog with 8 puppies was beign kept in a nearby garage and disturbing people with the continual howling!

Psychosis is extremely stressful and anxiety-provoking for the person with symptoms and those around them and requires special and sensitive handling and assessment/treatment of causes.

I have known all my life that I don't think quite the same as other people, I don't really see it as a problem so long as it doesn't impact others with difficult behaviours. It leads to increased creative abilities for me. However I am not wired to handle stress or distress, I think bipolar is most often triggered by that and I am coming to understand it as a limitation too, learning where to set boundaries and just how much I can cope with.

I think young people should get lessons in how to manage their lives while they're at school, couldn't deal with caretaking another human being seems very common in these sad cases.
« Last Edit: July 18, 2007, 11:36:43 AM by WRITE »

Overcomer

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Re: Are we mentally ill?
« Reply #62 on: July 18, 2007, 11:45:55 AM »
They said she was pulling out her leg and pubic hair right before she gave birth which they said she had never done.  I just remember a giggly girl who was funny and happy.  You are right about being objective but when talking to her best friend she says H just panicked and tried to cover up her neglect.  I wonder if maybe he was not dead and they could have revived him if she had called 911.
Kelly

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WRITE

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Re: Are we mentally ill?
« Reply #63 on: July 18, 2007, 12:53:34 PM »
 I just remember a giggly girl who was funny and happy

and that's a part of her. Everyone has good points, even the N people who have appalled us so much are wonderful in some ways!

However her behaviour with regards to this baby is not acceptable, whether it was an accident, a murder- which incidentally all the evidence points to, or somewhere in between.

She did nothing to help this baby and everything to hasten his untimely death.

And because she looks so 'normal' and there are 'normal-looking' people fighting for her defence she is getting excuses made for her.

If you found your baby in any kind of state, as we all have at different times, and panicked the over-riding panic is to make things right not destroy the infant.

Even with post-partum psychosis the worst behaviour might be to do nothing, not go throw him in a lake then lie about what happened.

If she was psychotic it seems like it cleared up very quickly....symptoms of psychosis are hallucinations, insomnia, strange speech and affects, agitation, bizarre feelings and rationalisations. It is not generally characterised by calm rational responses.

Kelly even if this lady did have post-partum psychosis she still killed her child, and whilst that might mitigate to some extent it doesn't chnage the facts, or the biggest factor for me- that the majority of women deal with these illnesses and stress without killing their children.

Mental illness does not cause violence, and does not excuse violence. I wish advocates of mental health reform would recognise and spell this out.

If people with mental illness want to be treated equally and fairly and to lose the taboo of the topic they need to be responsible!

We went through years of substance abuse being used as an explanation and excuse for crimes, instead of people having the responsibility for their own behaviour and managing their own lives handed to them; all it did was clog up the court systems and help no one, least of all the addicted person in denial about what they did and especially not the people trying to live with the consequences of their actions.

We have mixed messages in our society about violence and about compassion, as if they are either/or situations.

It is quite possible to help people face the truth of what they did and still show them love or compassion- in fact more so than when everyone joins in the denial and instigates a smokescreen....

This mother didn't cope with the responsibility of a newborn, that is clear, and more education for what to do in those circumstances would help. We can all help new mothers by being supportive and not placing so many unrealistic expectations on them.

However I wonder if it is easier in a way in our society for a woman to be convicted of a murder than it is to stand up to everyone around and say- I don't want this.

There is indeed a model of mental illness which suggests that it is an 'escape' from reality. A kind of internal choice....

Very very sad case, and rest in peace little baby, may your death be our lessons:

have you ever seen
a seed fallen to earth
not rise with a new life
why should you doubt the rise
of a seed named human


RUMI












lighter

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Re: Are we mentally ill?
« Reply #64 on: July 18, 2007, 10:14:50 PM »
Well I believe they disproved all those things but by saying them they made her out to be an evil person and that is why she is in jail.  Maybe because I know her I do not believe she did anything other than cover up an accident.  The case has been on several different Tv shows.


If that child was in the water for a short time and there was lake bacteria in his heart and lungs..... if she put him under those rocks because she thought he was brain damaged from lack of oxygen... if he was brain dead from lack of oxygen..... if he was dead and not breathing.... I still don't understand a mother premeditating the abandonment of her infant child.  The simple act of LEAVING that child alone is unthinkable to me. 

I remember seeing a gorilla mama on tv with a dead infant.  She carried it around and tried to wake it up for days.... until it started to fall apart and only then did she abandon it. 

Someone would have to have pried my baby from my arms, eventually, no matter what killed my baby.  I'd want her safe and with me in the light and I'd grieve like a wounded animal.  I woudn't sit and be calm and maybe that's not fair of me to judge this woman by any standard of feelings I might have.  I'm certain it is not.

I will say this.... I'm a basket case when I'm depressed and stress like she must have been under would have driven me over the edge of calm.  She was calm.  She was sitting there smoking cig after cig looking at pictures while everyone around her was frantic. 

WAS she frantic in her head and wishing God would just strike her dead?  Was she screaming in her head, like I would have been?  I would have drugged myself out of reality if I was her.  Maybe thats what she was using the cigarettes for?

She did trade information...... about her baby's location.......


for a cigarette. 


Or at least the promise of one.

That just speaks of cold selfish need for nicotene.... for her hands to do what they wanted to do.... for the familiar ritual of lighting and breathing in smoke and handling the cigarette.  The universal actions of people under stress.  Smoking. 

But maybe those cigarettes were what she used to calm herself with? Maybe she was beside her self in her head, with grief and confusion and regret?  Maybe.... just maybe.... she didn't put her infant in that cold water, while he was alive (brain dead or not from lack of oxygen) and weight his tiny body down with big heavy rocks she had to hunt and fetch, lift and aim and drop on his tiny form. 

Holy cheese...... impossible for me to fathom doing that, much less thinking about it and carrying out that plan while dealing with the grief of losing my baby. 

My husband might come home and find an insane woman sitting and rocking a dead child to her breast, humming and nurturing it until it was pried out of her hands but..... I would never abandon my baby..... couldn't hardly leave that child in a burial vault above ground where the bugs couldn't get her.  I still wouldn't want her left alone in the dark and cold and wet.  I couldn't get past the realization that she would be taken FROM me eventually.  If I went completely beserko, bc of PPD or some breakdown....  I can only imagine  myself taking  my baby somewhere where I could be with her a bit longer,  before they took her from me, and i never saw her again. 

This is making me so so sad.  I don't see how poor H can get out of her conviction.  And I'm not basing it on the fact that she smoked and wasn't classically beautiful.  Her lack of strange behavior leading up to bizaaro behavior and a cover story that changed and changed and changed..... and she was smart and quick and intelligent, funny and capable. 

Why was she so darned stupid with changing up her story to everyone?  Why not just tell the story as it was, once she got that cigarette and showed them where her baby was?  Why tell different versions?  Maybe she did lose her mind? 

Maybe she belongs on a mental ward, not in prison? 


Overcomer

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Re: Are we mentally ill?
« Reply #65 on: July 18, 2007, 10:27:53 PM »
Boy that screams of what we would all call rational-and I agree, why would anyone in their right mind do that?  No one would.  Anyone with any sense at all would immediately call 911.  But that is what I am talking about-it seems like insane behavior-who in their right mind do that?  And then sell your freedom for a cig?
Kelly

"The Best Way Out is Through........and try laughing at yourself"

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Re: Are we mentally ill?
« Reply #66 on: July 18, 2007, 10:33:43 PM »
I mean it seems irrational!
Kelly

"The Best Way Out is Through........and try laughing at yourself"

bigalspal

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Re: Are we mentally ill?
« Reply #67 on: July 18, 2007, 11:16:12 PM »
Hi OC,
You sure are right about it being irrational!
But....as I was reading your words, I had an awful thought...I wonder how close I came to the same fate of that poor baby?! WHAT, you say? Could my Nmother do that to me?
Yes, I think she could've! She has told me MANY times that if abortion was legal in 1957 I WOULD NOT BE ALIVE TODAY! I truly believe she would've done the same thing to be had it not have been for her mother, my grandmother. She has HATED me with an intensity that I find hard to fathom. She IS mellowing out with age. I've only heard the abortion remark once in the last 2 yrs. I SHUDDER to think what could've happened to me if my NMother would've had a meltdown like the mother in the story! How about you folks? Do YOU think you are lucky to be alive, too??
Something to think about!
Bigalspal
"Sure I'd like to beat Notre Dame, don't get me wrong. But nothing matters more than beating that cow college on the other side of the state." -- Coach Bear Bryant....
          To a group of boosters before an Auburn game.
ROOOOOOOOLL TIDE ROLL!!

Overcomer

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Re: Are we mentally ill?
« Reply #68 on: July 19, 2007, 07:08:43 AM »
Oh how do you cope with that?  I know my mom was more concerned with herself than I and she called me ugly, but I never got the feeling she wanted me dead!
Kelly

"The Best Way Out is Through........and try laughing at yourself"

bigalspal

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Re: Are we mentally ill?
« Reply #69 on: July 19, 2007, 09:55:59 AM »
YOY PEOPLE are how I cope! I'm really MUCH better now!
HUGS to ALL,
Bigalspal
"Sure I'd like to beat Notre Dame, don't get me wrong. But nothing matters more than beating that cow college on the other side of the state." -- Coach Bear Bryant....
          To a group of boosters before an Auburn game.
ROOOOOOOOLL TIDE ROLL!!

WRITE

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Re: Are we mentally ill?
« Reply #70 on: July 19, 2007, 12:48:28 PM »
what I am talking about-it seems like insane behavior who in their right mind do that?

is this just a word/phrase you are using here?!

The word 'insane' comes from Latin 'insanus' or not healthy; however it has Victorian connotations which make people with mental illness wince when it is used in the context of mental illness.

sell your freedom for a cig?

that is exactly what I mean about values and what I said before:

I'll explain it- it's when people's lack of foresight joins with their stupidity and cruelty and unwillingness to take responsibility for themselves or deny themselves something.
I worked with criminals for years and the one thing that was always in the forefront of my mind was how pointless so many of the actions were, overall, even the big ones always boiled down to small inconsiderations.


To blame the addiction though is also wrong- millions of new mothers smoke and may indeed be indirectly bringing minor harm to their child, but would not take that to the ultimate neglect and abuse shown here.

Do YOU think you are lucky to be alive, too??

my mother smoked and drank and was very neglectful and unpleasant, still- we all managed to be fed and clothed and schooled and to survive our childhood!

The abortion issue is another topic, and what a hateful thing to say to a child, but I am guessing that a person who chooses to have an abortion isn't equating it to the murder or neglect of a developed baby which has actually been born.

These are difficult topics and I hope they do not give pain to anyone who stumbles into these threads or whose lives have been touched by these issues.

I for one have said all I can on mental health without banging a drum!

Love and peace to all.

lighter

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Re: Are we mentally ill?
« Reply #71 on: July 19, 2007, 12:56:54 PM »
((((Write))))


bigalspal

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Re: Are we mentally ill?
« Reply #72 on: July 19, 2007, 01:31:21 PM »
Hi Write,
Sorry for my part in making you feel uncomfortable. I my intention was not to harm anyone who stumbles across this board. I would never do that, because I was one of those who "stumbled across this board" & it saved my life!
Really i'm sorry. (((((((((((WRITE)))))))
Bigalspal
"Sure I'd like to beat Notre Dame, don't get me wrong. But nothing matters more than beating that cow college on the other side of the state." -- Coach Bear Bryant....
          To a group of boosters before an Auburn game.
ROOOOOOOOLL TIDE ROLL!!

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Re: Are we mentally ill?
« Reply #73 on: July 19, 2007, 07:31:26 PM »
Write:  I am sorry.  I guess when you hear offhanded comments like "she must be insane" etc. you take it personally.  Maybe like it is not politically correct to call my autistic daughter a "retard."  (Like my teenaged daughters have done!!)

Yes, the abortion issue is horrific and I am sorry anyone's mother would say that to them......

But speaking of that...............H could have aborted poor baby J just a few weeks before he was born and nothing would have happened to her - "a mother's right......."

Oh well, the point of this whole thread was to point out that when you are brainwashed or abused, and it effects you emotionally and mentally, is there a point where an abusive person can send someone over the brink?  I know it went off on Heidi and Dahmer and Bundy but I really meant us.  How much abuse can one person handle before they are forever effected?  Maybe not Narcissistic - but full blown physical, sexual and emotional abuse (although I would argue that I had full blown emotional abuse through my Nmom.........................psychological abuse.....)

bigalspal

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Re: Are we mentally ill?
« Reply #74 on: July 19, 2007, 07:39:35 PM »
You know, I'm now afraid to post on this board. I've been thinking about it all day. I never meant to offend anyone by my abortion comment, but it WAS said to me & it is my pain.
For years I've been looking for someone, anyone to understand what I went through. Now, I guess I'm afraid what I talk about will upset someone. I'm trying not to over react, but now I'm not sure what I can safely talk about.
Bigalspal
"Sure I'd like to beat Notre Dame, don't get me wrong. But nothing matters more than beating that cow college on the other side of the state." -- Coach Bear Bryant....
          To a group of boosters before an Auburn game.
ROOOOOOOOLL TIDE ROLL!!