Voicelessness and Emotional Survival Message Board
Voicelessness and Emotional Survival => Voicelessness and Emotional Survival Message Board => Topic started by: Lupita on July 22, 2007, 03:48:30 AM
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My friend P, she is now more friends with everybody in the Book Club. We had a meeting yesterday. Although everybody listen to my opinions and my statements, I did not feel welcome at all. I do not know what happened there. Something happened, something must have happened.
The founder of the club likes to have a group to adore him and listen to him, and probably I was putting too much passion and he did not like that. He wants to be the one to mark the rhythm. He did not subjected to vote the next place of meeting. It seems like he already decided where is going to be.
If I want to be there I have to be very quiet. I do not know what to think.
Nobody has been impolite, but I feel bad vibration. I do not know what to do.
What seems interesting to me is that for the first time, I do not feel sad or fearful of them. If they do not appreciate me, I will not go back there anymore. I do not want to work hard for nobody's sympathy. The sympathy is there of it is not there.
But still, I do not know what to do. Do I want to be a sheep and follow the leader and belong to something? Do I want to enforce my boundaries? If I enforce my boundaries I will be alone, and probably lonely. But I do not want to be in a group where I do not have a voice.
I do not know what to do.
As usual, you always give wonderful ideas. Dear, friends, what do you think?
What is my problem? Why do I not fit in anyplace?
It seems that I start wonderfully everywhere and always something happens that ruins it. There is a pattern. But I do not know what to do.
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HI LUPITA!
::waving::
I think you should look for another book club to join, just in case. Your discomfort may be telling you it's time to move on.
You could wait and let your friend shoot herself in the foot with your book club..... see what happens but......
you may find a club you like even better.
I will say this.
I belonged to a book club at church and it was full of wonderful elderly characters.
Sometimes, one of us didn't quite fit in with every story we explored together.
Sometimes it was me.
Sometimes it was the friend who liked to talk and talk and talk and I could see people's eyes glaze over if she went on too long, poor dear. We all still loved and welcomed her very much.
Sometimes it was another person and I gotta tell ya, I bumped heads with the leader of our little group on more than one occassion. ::looking around innocently..... moi?::
We sorta took turns getting passionate and being triggered and sometimes it didn't get resolved during that class.
::shrug::
It was always forgotten by the next class when it was sombody else's turn in the barrell.
I think you should:
1) Look around at other book clubs near you
2) Relax and assume that everyone likes you and wants you to be comfortable and happy while you're at your current club
3) Simply relax and choose to observe what's really going on around you at the next meeting. No emotion or fear. Just pull back and observe. You may find you feel differently or..... you may find you're feelings are validated and move on.
(((Lupita))) I missed you!
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Thank you Lighter, Thanks for the time and ideas.
I do not want to be in a group where I do not have a voice. Where I do not count. That is the way it is going to be if I continue in that group. A couple of people have the power and everybody follows them. What makes me sad is that I took P there. And she stabbed me in the back. I am glad because that way I see that she was never my friend. I do not like her and I do ot want to be with her. I invited two of the best members. He is a writer and he is an aset to the group. Now, I guess I will lose my friends.
The two in power, one always gives me orders. She asks me to do things I do not want to do and her mother is the same. So, I guess that I do not fit there anymore.
Sad is that I do not fit anywhere. Still, I do not know why. Or maybe I know. Probably because A, the founder, did not want a writer in the group, and somebody with real knowledge of literature. O, the other founder, is mad because she only invites me when she needs somebody to drive, like to parties or beach, etc.
I feel like I am at the beginning again, looking for friends. I feel very depressed, and sad.
Thank you for your time, I appreciate it.
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I thought I was not sad, but I am. I am not fearful though. That is the only good. Other times that something like this happened I was totally consumed in pain. Not this time. Just sad. Alone again. What am I doing wrong?
Probably I am being insensitive because I should have known that this writer would intimidate a fragile ego of A. But I thought so positively of him that I thought he would appreciate a knowledgeable member. I was wrong.
Somebody told me, never do too much, never do too little, always mediocrity, and you will be accepted everywhere. I start to think that is correct. All the time i put passion in something I get problems. I am so sad.
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No no no Lupita.
This pain and discomfort is telling you that you will find another place to belong.
It is motivation to get you away from the people who were using you.
GO AND FIND ANOTHER BOOK CLUB!
A BETTER ONE!
::whispering::
Then go ask your two best book club guys to come join you there. ::shrug::
But don't invite that mean girl this time, lol.
Oh Lupita..... my sib always told me NOT TO HELP UNLESS YOU WERE ASKED.
I think that's better than shooting for mediocre.
Be you.
Be confident.
Be happy and things will come easier for you when you aren't making decisions from a position of fear.
I get treated differently by the whole world when I feel good and I'm focused on living in the moment and finding my simple daily pleasures and taking care of myself.
Isn't there some cool bookstores in your area with clubs?
Church's for sure.
How about neighborhood ones in your area?
What about starting your own?
You have to reach out and open some doors, hon. Even if they aren't the right doors, they lead to other doors still.
It's a journey and it's better if you see it as an amazing experience that will unfold with surprises and amazing things and sad things and happy things. Everything has a season and all that.
Embrace it and see what it has for ((Lupita))
Obligatory Lighter saying: "your altitude is determined by your attitude"
Not sure if that helps you, but...... I hope you feel better and discover some new and interesting people soon: )
Be choosey and be savvy.
Listen to your gut.
The gut knooooowwwwws things, lol; )
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Hi Lupe,
I vote for continuing there a few times, just to observe yourself and them. For some reason it's triggering stuff, and some of that stuff may be bigger-FEELING than it is. (Or not.) Maybe using the detachment to go: hmmm, I notice I'm feeling this, and that, etc., could be useful? Or if it makes you feel awful, then I ditto, find another.
Or both?
I noticed you said one person "gives you orders." Hmm. That sounds like an opportunity to practice assertiveness. I might wonder, what makes this person look at me and think, there's someone I will tell what to do. I think I won't take an order. There we go...nobody can give me an order that I refuse. What would happen if I said, No, I don't want to do that, but I'm going to fetch the wine glasses (or whatever)...
Don't know the answers but I have a feeling there's FOO stuff going on there.
Idea! How about group therapy? I personally have benefitted hugely from that in the past.
love, got to run,
Hops
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Dear Lupita,
I think you're learning alot through your interactions with this book-group... and if you leave now, you might miss "the rest of the story" :)
I'm sorry you're hurting, Lupita...these uncomfortable feelings you're having seem to me like growing pains which are natural and normal, and even positive. It's like exercise... muscles get sore, but if we stop using them then they stiffen up. Gotta press through, maybe?
You're doing a wonderful job of sharing all this here on the board and I'm believing that will help you to gain strength and courage.
I don't think it is at all that you don't fit in anyplace.
Just maybe you leave before the group (and individual) growing pains get a chance to run their course?
It may help for you to consider what it is you'd really like to have happened in that group... for instance, when you introduced your (former) friend to them.
How would you have liked for the others to have responded? What do you picture in your mind as a satisfying outcome?
Love,
Hope
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CB, thank you for your time. I feel so paranoid. I feel that A and O want to kick me out. O gives me orders. For example, she wants me to drive to the beach to her best friend. Her best friend calls me and asks me, I say I have something else going at that time. She says bye. Then O calls me and says why you don’t want to take S to the beach. I say I have something to do. She says why don’t you do it another time? I got mad. I did not follow her order, but she gave it. What do I do to elicit that kind of disrespect? Next time I know they are going out dancing, and they do not invite me. O and A are good friends and founders of the book club. Same thing happened in my last church. I was not wanting to obey orders from the leaders and they kick me out. They talked to one on one to everybody and asked them not to talk to me. I left. I am afraid that is what is going to happen here. And P the friend that I took there, she is backing them up. So, I have this creepy thought that O is telling others something I do not know about. P tells me that she recieves e mails from O which I do not. I feel so devastated. If I get locked up out of my car I call the luck smith people and pay 30 bocks and fix it. O hot locked up out of her car and she wanted me to drive her around. Fortunately I was very far from her site and was not convenient for her. After the book meeting yesterday, A did not want to say where is the next meeting. He is hiding it. Why? He does not want me to participate. He did not want to tell the writer where the next meeting is going to be. That was supposed to be subjected to vote. There is not transparency. He is manipulating things at his convenience. After I provided the people from my own friends. I feel bad. I am afraid that other people do to me what my mother did. Always isolating me.
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Dear Hop, what is foo? Why does it hurt so much that A did not want to say bye to me. Not only that, but in front of me gave a huge pat in the back to P, I took P there, and P gets pat in the back and I do not get even a good bye?
P gets lost and he goes out to the street to find her. I get lost and he tells me why I did not get the right address from the internet? What did I do for him to treat me different? Try to have a beach meeting? Try to bring a real writer to the group? He felt threaten? He was the start before. Yesterday, my friend the writer had control of all the conversation. A told me that it was causing division and that he did not want to accept nobody else in the group. I said that why did not we make a website for the group, and he said that he was going to think about it. Like he owns it. Maybe he feels threaten by me.
Do I sound crazy? This happens to me over and over, every time I reach out to do something in group. I start feeling bad, triggered, paranoid, hurting, I always provoke bad feelings in people. But only happens with the leaders. It seems that I upset the leaders. Am I doing it in purpose? How, if I do not even know what am I doing? Then I feel bad, and leave, or be kicked out like in the church. All my life. Jobs, group of friends, group of whatever. I get sick. I am going to follow all the advises here. I am going to find another group. Also, will keep going to this but very quietly trying to analyze, very carefully, but hoe can I do that if I cant think clearly? I feel so bad that I cant think?
But today, O’s mother called me and asked me, where are you? And I said, why? First time I say why before somebody else. I know I do not want anything to do privately with O or P or A, but I would like to see if I am right. What if they e mail each other with out sending to me? I am getting so paranoid.
I am wondering if it was better when I was alone in my house without any club.
Please, friends, help me out here.
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CH, if I ask A if he is mad at me, he might say, it is your idea, or you are paranoid, oh no, nothing, why do you say that. But I know he is mad. He never left with out saying good bey. We have been meeting since January, every 15 days.
Yesterday was the best meeting ever. It was smoke coming out of the place. Everybody was participating, because ny friend the writer knew how to create the ebvironement. Maybe A was threaten by that. A and O think that the group belongs to them. If they consider me a threat, they will kick me out. The others are sheeps, beeee beeee beee, they will do whatever O and A want. They accept O and A as superior, but me as equal, and to defy that is defiant.
I am not making any sense. What is wrong with me.
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Last time I felt like this, was in that stupid church. Two years ago. I do not want that to happene again. My son says that I have to feel that I do not need the aproval of anybody, that I do not need anybody's love. Just my self. He says that I have to say that to my self one thousand times a day. Maybe because I stopped my afirmations. I have to start again.
On top of that, I met a new friend in the mall and invited her to my new church, one year going there, and today she went and Sunday school, was about false teachers, and they talked about politics, and they mentioned a candidate as a false teacher, and that made me feel horrible, because that could have made her feel bad, and I wanted her to listen about love. That did not happen.
Everything I do becomes bad. Failure.
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I just recieved and e mail from A saying that the next meeting will be taken place at O's house. She wants that. He did not put the writer in the e mail list. He is trying to see if I am going to ask him. He did not put my friend in the e mail list. I feel so sad.
Probably, I am fihting. Why? I do not really like the kind of books they read. I do not like the places where they meet. I o just because I am so lonely, and so hungry for human contact, for friends, I enjoy reading the books on this website, children of the slef absobed, life traps, trapped in the mirror, etc. Those literature books are not specially attractive to me.
Why do I feel so bad? Do I have some kind of PTSD?
Oh God. I need somebody here with me.
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Lihgter, I am so sick today. I think I am not ready yet. Still a teen ager inside, going to high school to suffer with the popular cheer leaders. Or my mom and my sister.
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Dear Lupita,
FOO is family of origin. I think that you answered your own question. You feel like you are back with your mother again--- isolated and rejected(if I have this right). I think that you are replaying old patterns. When you heal the old patterns--- you will not keep replaying them(IMO).. You need to heal them and face them in the way that is best for you Love Ami
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Dear Hop, what is foo? Why does it hurt so much that A did not want to say bye to me. Not only that, but in front of me gave a huge pat in the back to P, I took P there, and P gets pat in the back and I do not get even a good bye?
((((Lupita)))) It's just a virtual hug sweetie but.... I wish I could give you a real hug. You are so sweet I'm afraid that the mean people see it a mile away and knock you about just because they can. It's what they do and I don't doubt your perceptions though I have to make sure I step back and check my own when I feel those same things. Sometimes it's old stuff and my insecurity. Most of the time..... it's really happening the way you think it is. ((Lupita))
P gets lost and he goes out to the street to find her. I get lost and he tells me why I did not get the right address from the internet? What did I do for him to treat me different? Try to have a beach meeting? Try to bring a real writer to the group? He felt threaten? He was the start before. Yesterday, my friend the writer had control of all the conversation. A told me that it was causing division and that he did not want to accept nobody else in the group. I said that why did not we make a website for the group, and he said that he was going to think about it. Like he owns it. Maybe he feels threaten by me.
Do I sound crazy? This happens to me over and over, every time I reach out to do something in group. I start feeling bad, triggered, paranoid, hurting, I always provoke bad feelings in people. But only happens with the leaders. It seems that I upset the leaders. Am I doing it in purpose? How, if I do not even know what am I doing? Then I feel bad, and leave, or be kicked out like in the church. All my life. Jobs, group of friends, group of whatever. I get sick. I am going to follow all the advises here. I am going to find another group. Also, will keep going to this but very quietly trying to analyze, very carefully, but hoe can I do that if I cant think clearly? I feel so bad that I cant think?
But today, O’s mother called me and asked me, where are you? And I said, why? First time I say why before somebody else. I know I do not want anything to do privately with O or P or A, but I would like to see if I am right. What if they e mail each other with out sending to me? I am getting so paranoid.
I am wondering if it was better when I was alone in my house without any club.
Please, friends, help me out here.
I don't think that you're crazy. I think that you have a certain demeanor that makes the N'ish personalities feel entitled to manipulate and exploit you. You may give them that signal and need to work on sending out more confident, assertive signals so they don't assume you're at their disposal. I think they can tell who's vulnerable and can be manipulated, Lupita.
I read in a book that we always receive and give signals, was it GETTING THE LOVE YOU NEED? I think so and very good book, btw. We are always subconsiously asessing people when we meet them, even when we don't realize it....
'This person will nurture me'
'This person will hurt me'
That sort of thing. You're so nice Lupita and there are a lot of meanies in the world. It's not that you ONLY meet them, it's just that other meanies don't let them jerk them around, use them and discard them. They wouldn't. But we don't see it coming. Must put that helmet back on and make better choices Lupita. Screw yourself up and remember to count your blessings and say NO to the unworthy things.... so you have room for the things that will build you up.
I say this a lot but..... for me..... it's what makes sense and what's always gotten me through my past voids.... into the light: )
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CH, if I ask A if he is mad at me, he might say, it is your idea, or you are paranoid, oh no, nothing, why do you say that. But I know he is mad. He never left with out saying good bey. We have been meeting since January, every 15 days.
Yesterday was the best meeting ever. It was smoke coming out of the place. Everybody was participating, because ny friend the writer knew how to create the ebvironement. Maybe A was threaten by that. A and O think that the group belongs to them. If they consider me a threat, they will kick me out. The others are sheeps, beeee beeee beee, they will do whatever O and A want. They accept O and A as superior, but me as equal, and to defy that is defiant.
I am not making any sense. What is wrong with me.
((((((((Lupita))))))) More hugs for you.
To me you are making good sense. You're seeing all these people just as they are... and you are taking it to heart.
The seeing is good. The letting it settle into your heart to tear you to shreds is not so good for you at all.
What you describe sounds like a typical group power-struggle to me.
Just so you know... I'm glad that you're not like O and A. I'm glad that you are who you are.
I cannot help but think that at least some of those other sheep are also glad to have you there, and maybe they just don't know what to do with people like O and A either! I would have alot of trouble dealing with them, too.
Wish I could be of more help to you, but I can only telll you that I hope you'll keep posting about your feelings here and letting some of this wonderful support you're getting build you up. You are very much loved and appreciated here!
Hope
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I'm still with you Lupita.
Get back to those affirmations and try to keep them up. Tape some to your bathroom mirror and fridge. Make a date with yourself to do something Lupita enjoys. Go to the book store and buy something really yummy and tuck into it every day for an hour? You can inquire about book clubs while you're there and pull back and observe yourself and your surroundings as you do this.
Become aware of whats going on aournd you. Smell the coffee from the coffee bar. Walk through different book sections you don't normally go to. Check out the sale section and stay in the moment. No worrying about yesterday or tomorrow. Think about the nice cool air conditioning on your skin. Go buy a coffee and peruse some of the books you're considering. Concetrate on those books and that cup of coffee/tea.
Enjoy that for yourself. You deserve to feel worthy and cared for.
It's gonna be OK, ((Lupita))
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Lupita,
Tell me about the book you are discussing right now in your book club. You said that you arent enjoying reading literature right now? What are you reading? You know, you can learn a lot about people in literature--it doesnt have to be in a book like Trapped in the Mirror.
What are you reading now? How long will you be discussing it? Have you kept up with the reading?
Love
CB
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I just sent an e mail to reply all. I said: Dear friends, The meeting on the 4th, I will not be able to make it, niether the one of the 18th. I hope you have a wonderful time. The books, you can choose, I enjoy all the books we have read so far. And the place too. I will go to any place of your choice. See you on September. A big hug to all of you.
I do not have the strenght to deal with these people. I get too sick. I am so sad.
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Yes, CB, sometimes I think that I am the only one that really reads the books. As fast as desire, Laura Esquivel, the author of as water for chocolate. We finished that. We discussed that yesterday. I feel I am wasting my time. It is not the book. It is the power. I do not like to have power complots, and politics, that makes me sick. They are playing politics. I hate it.
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I am going to express some ideas that I am in the process of forming. Take what you like and throw away the rest. It is about behavior in groups.
I remember when I had a group in high school. There was a group dynamic..I was the leader.It just happened that way b/c I was strong about knowing who I was. I did not need other people to affirm me. . I remember that I had that sense of internal strength. I think that my grandmother taught me things that made me feel that I could be strong,if I followed them. I had an internal compass. I remember that her main thing was to be a lady and have respect for yourself. She said that you had to live with dignity and to have a good reputation.I had external values that I could measure myself by..I remember that I had a peace about myself. I liked myself b/c I knew that I would not compromise and this gave me a sense that I was worth something.
I fell very far from there ,as you can see, b/c I am in an abusive marriage. However, I am remembering what it felt like to know who you were and how far you would go in your relationships with people.
My son(golden) is in a fraternity. He has become a leader in the fraternity. I asked him how it happened. He said that he had to be strong about himself. He had to maintain his "voice" even if other people were saying that he was wrong.
I think that we are "alone" even when we are with people. We, as voiceless people, might want others to define us.. The others have their own issues and we should not be asking for others to define us.If we do, we are set up for pain- and hurt one way or another
These are my own thoughts on groups-- just my voice--, not advice one way or another for Lupita Love Ami
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So don't play their games, Lupita.
You said NO to the next 2 meetings.
You were polite and you don't have to explain any further than..."I have plans" if anyone asks why you can't make it.
Take a breather and see how you feel.
You left the door open to go back but..... sounds like you won't be interested when that time comes.
We always read one of the Award Winning Short Story books at our groups. I've always been happy with them.
What kind of book do you think you'll pick out for yourself when you get around to choosing something you really want to read, Lupita?
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. I felt panicky. And I realized it was because I thought that I was trapped by what they thought of me. And if anything makes us an N-magnet it is that.
Why do we do this? I am sure if we ask around, everybody will say that has happened to them too.
Why????????????/
Is it because our parents did not satisfy our needs? Are we looking for aproval from these people? Why do we need their aproval? Is that the aproval that our mothers never gave us? I was never good enough for my mother. Never. I am not yet.
If I had a nurturing mother , would I be needing these idiot's validation? As you said, I am an N magnet!!!!!! And tired of it. Sick!!!!!!
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Why do not I say just NO instead of giving explanations, me friend called (old story)
I want to go to a certain beach, do you want to go?
I cant, I have a pieano rehearsal for a wedding at that time.
Why dont you do it at another time?
Instead, I wan to go to a certain beach.
I am sorry, I have a previous commitment.
What do you have to do?
I am sorry, I have a previous commitment.
Why you cant go?
I have a previous commitment.
Why do I start giving explanations??????? They dont care, they just want to satisfy their needs. My feelings dont count.
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I need to finish this, I have things to do, i cannot devote more time to those people.
Why am I still upset? It is too many hours!!!!!!!!!!
Who cares if he pat P in the back? He can pat her in the bot if he wants. I do not care.
Why does it hurt so much!!!!!!???????????????
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As Ami says, if we put our expectations in other people we are going to be hurt all the time. We can only put expectations on our selves. We can only control our selves.
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Dear Lupita,
You might be re-playing over and over again the pain and abandonment by your mother. That is what we do with men. In relationships ,we keep marrying our mother or our father. We keep recreating the problem situation.My friend married 6 times. I saw a vivid instance of it with her. I am not sure why?It might be that until it heals,it just keeps repeating Love Ami
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Why do I care what others think? I wish I had the coldness of Steve. I wish I could say I could not care any less what you think of me.
Why do I need validation? Why cant I give me my own validation? I know I am right. I know I did the right thing. I know I do not want to be in a group for pleasure where we do not subgect to vote what is next, instead of ons person to decide.
I choose to take a brake from these people. Why do i feel bad?
I am not feeling as bad as I felt three hours ago.
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I am thinking that maybe there is a natural emotional development just like there is a natural physical development. We learn life lessons by observing people and situations and maybe having a wise adult help us to trust ourselves. Then, we face life truths at the right age. Maybe, one huge life truth is that we are our own emotional compass. Maybe, this makes life" work "
I am rediscovering life lessons , that I 'knew" intuitively I did not have access to these lessons before. As I let the layers of pain and denial go-- the answers to how life works and my role in it seem to present themselves and become clear.
I think that we have lost contact with ourselves so that we can not figure out how to handle situations that other people know "intuitively.
I think that trusting our core is the answer to whatever the question is Love Ami
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Why do I care what others think? I wish I had the coldness of Steve. I wish I could say I could not care any less what you think of me.
Why do I need validation? Why cant I give me my own validation? I know I am right. I know I did the right thing. I know I do not want to be in a group for pleasure where we do not subgect to vote what is next, instead of ons person to decide.
I choose to take a brake from these people. Why do i feel bad?
I am not feeling as bad as I felt three hours ago.
It reeally is a time consuming all consuming process to get through this stuff, Lupita.
Glad that you're feeling a bit better.
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For everyone:
This fits the saying: "Wherever you go, there you are."
You can go live in another time zone and you are still you, unless you change first then move to another time zone but then why bother if you are all fixed up in this time zone 'cause it's gonna cost you a pile of moolah to find a time zone where you aren't you. You will be you. might as well do it now right there, wherever you are!
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For everyone:
This fits the saying: "Wherever you go, there you are."
You can go live in another time zone and you are still you, unless you change first then move to another time zone but then why bother if you are all fixed up in this time zone 'cause it's gonna cost you a pile of moolah to find a time zone where you aren't you. You will be you. might as well do it now right there, wherever you are!
This is so true :) Thanks, Izzy!
Lupita, I'm so glad that you're feeling a bit less bad. I'll be praying for you.
With love,
Hope
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Hi Lup:
I hear your frustration and a lot of progress in the very same post:
I know I am right. I know I did the right thing. I know I do not want to be in a group for pleasure where we do not subgect to vote what is next, instead of ons person to decide.
I choose to take a brake from these people. Why do i feel bad?
I am not feeling as bad as I felt three hours ago.
I think if you ask a new question: Why am I NOT feeling as bad as I did 3 hours ago?
You may find that you've already answered it.
The difference is that this question is grounded in the present moment. That's the moment you can observe, and make changes in. You can't make changes in the past. You can't make changes in the future. But you can change one thought, notice one reaction, and draw a new conclusion (even about the smallest shift)...in the present.
That's where I think the answers are.
hugs
Hops
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For everyone:
This fits the saying: "Wherever you go, there you are."
I went to Europe to find myself.
I wasn't there: /
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Dear friend members of this board, it is such a blessing to have you here, it was very helpful.
Yes, I feel better today. Not sad, more indifferent. Why? I do not know.
Why I was so sad when A pat P in the back?
I was 5 years old, and my father put me in the bicycle, and push me. I fell. He did it again, and again. Not consoling me for my knees bleeding. I finally learned. But the fear going to the unknown in the bicycle, those few seconds, with my knees bleeding, still again falling again, those second of terror. five years old. When my little brother needed to learn, they hired a person to come to the house everyday to carefully hold him every afternoon, for two hours, until he learned. He was never pushed. He never fell. When he got hurt, he was consoled. My mother hated me.
Not to mention how I learned to swim. Lots of swallowing and asphyxiation. Not for my brother and my sister. I was the chosen.
They hit me with belt. Every day. Not to my bother and my sister.
My mother told me horrible things in secret. Nobody heard it. When I complained, she said it was not true. nobody believed me. Until today. Mo brother things my mother loves him more because he is a good son, and I am a bad daughter. My brother is totally blind to the abuse of my mother. My sister is "retarded", she is 45 and she does not work, my mother works three jobs to support my sister. My sister is a civil engineer. She does not want to work. She has not worked in ten years. I was nine years old and she showed me the pubic hear of my father's lover. Why would she show me? She found those hairs in one of our blankets, at home. Then she asked him to bit me with belt. That does not make any sense. Many, many things happened in my house. I had a new car, my first new car of my life, 45 years old, a cart from the supermarket, abandoned in the parking lot came towards my car and hit it. My mother laught. I cried.
I was wondering if that is the reason why, I hate to be treated differently. I hate those secrets and games. Controlling, power games, I know I have to put up with it in a job to make a living, but not for a group that it is supposed to be of pleasure.
I want to find healthy people. Mature people. I do not know how I am going to get rid of O and P. O is a professor at the university. P is a social worker. They are educated people. I cannot tell them I really dislike them. I canto tell them they make me vomit. O's mother is also a manipulator. She calls me three times a day and ask me where are you? Yesterday for the first time I said, why?
My plan, I will not answer my phone. I will call back everybody in the evening late and tell them sorry I missed them.
A is very rich. A has many properties. condos, buildings. I am the only poor person in the group. So, I have to be very careful.
Your phrases, your tools, your help will be very much appreciated.
I need to get away from these people without them to know that I hate them.
Your sentences, are very helpful. Sentences don't come to my mouth at the necessary time.
Thank you all who took the time to write me, your opinions are very important.
Love!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! you!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
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Do you think is it possible to find friends that are healthy? Friends that don't have creepy psychological games?
Is that possible? Or I am going to be lonely forever because I am looking for something that does not exist?
Do you think that O and A are normal people?
If thery are normal, why are they intimidated by a member who really has knowledge of the same club that they want to form? Like my friend the professional writer?
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Am I looking for something inexistent? I feel so numbed right now. So indifferent. The sky could fall over my place and it would not make any difference.
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Hey Lupita,
You are an important person to me today. Read this thread and felt like you said so many things that reflect my own feelings and thoughts and strugglings. Thanks for the example. I have learned a lot. I am desperate to find the answers. Maybe I need to focus on it "in the moment" as one of you said earlier. I so need to learn not to let others define me and not need others so badly. I think that my internal compass is trying to lead me to these things. You all can verballize it so well. Thank you.
Anyway, enough ramblings. Wanted you to know that I appreciate your courage in posting. Lupita, let me know if you have any success with this, Ok?
--mof4
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Mother, thank you so much for your validation. I thought that if I was degrading my self my mother would love me. That is why I do it with others, thinking that they would love me. But they dispise us when we do that. It is the opposite.
Just do not know how to do it correctly.
You have no idea how much pain I have pour into this thread. Every single word I have written in this thread has been with tears coming out. I could have a fish swimming here if I collected them. This thread has been sad, sad. Mf4, I guess, you do have an idea of how much pain I have. You do.
Thank you.
I will not answer the phone when O's mother calls. I have to find an excuse for not to take her out on Friday. She wanted to go out with me on Friday. I do not want to be with her.
Dear friends, help me get rid of these creepy people, with out making them my enemies, please!!!!!!!!!! I am afraid of them.
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Dear Lupita,
It is NOT hopeless- first of all. You can heal and you will heal if you will face the truth of your life as you are(IMO). The Bible promises us that we will be made free if we will face the truth. This will work no matter if you believe in God or not. or how you believe in God It is a basic truth. of life What is imprisoning you is LIES. It is that simple even though it feels much more complicated than that.
IMO-- you have begun the process today of looking at the lies that you were told about yourself- You were the "despised" one. You were the worthless one.No wonder you feel horrible. ANYONE would. Anyone in the whole world who had your background would feel the same way.It is amazing that you are as 'good" as you are.
Let us start here. You made it you are alive. You can function. Now, you will step by step face the pain. You will see(over time) that it was ALL lies.
I am doing this and I am getting free. It will work b/c it is a promise from the One who made you. It will work for anyone and everyone who does it.
I will help you. Just keep sharing and writing the pain,. You will slowly begin to see that none of it had anything to do with Lupita as a person. They were all sick. When you see these truths ,you will begin to heal.
The friends issue is secondary. Love Ami
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Lupita--I hear your pain and feel your pain. I have tears for you and with you. So much pain! for so long! I feel so like you describe in your book club situations. I have never been given permission or given myself permission to stand alone. I always feel like that makes me hard and unloving or unaccepting of others differences. I always try so hard to make the others comfortable at my expense. Maybe I hope that will qualify me for their love. Maybe I think that it is giving love to others but then they dispise us....the more that I learn about myself, it feels more like manipulating or controlling it to get my needs met. Crazy sad, I am, huh? I am learning the hard lesson that I CAN do these things. That it is ok to stand up and be me -- even though others may send flack my way. Love how you said you wanted to" get rid of them without making them enemies."
Amy-- What does IMO mean? And I agree that it is not really the friend thing, it is about all the lies. I think I understand the dynamics, but I find myself discouraged in my quest to find and believe the truth. I think I have known this since I was a little girl. And, I agree about the hope!
--mof4
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Thank you Mf4, I agree with you.
Ami, I agree with tou 99%. Everything you said it is right. Except that friends are secondary. Maslow piramid, you need basif needs, water food, air, then education, then social. Men are social animals by nature, we cannot live in a cave forever, I needfriends. I need to go out, dancing, have coffee, talk to people.
I live alone, come to empty house, no problem with that. But I need to have somebody to go to the movies with. That is why I want to be able to have friends that go out. Not Ns that exploit me.
But having social life is a basic part of life.
The last part of the piramid of maslow is the love of a man. Fullfillment of being able to attract a person of the opposite sex. That is in the top of the piramid.
Social is very importat. I want to have that. I understand that cant have it if I am so sick that get nausiated everytime somebody intends to use me. I want to learn to say no, to say no, just simple sorry i cant.
Not to feel bad ofr it. Not to desire human contact at any cost.
Everything else you said is beautiful. Beautiful. It was lies. Pure lies. I think that my father hated me too.
Not his fault. Dead for 40 years now. So, cant blame him.
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Dear Lupita,
I f you start with the basic premise that it was lies--- that in itself will help
MO4 IMO-- means in my opinion
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Lupita:
I am sitting here resisting the urge to tell you to handle your book club people with a big smile.....
looking them straight in the eye.....
and telling them.....
without any animosity at all.......
maybe a little amused hurmor.......
but telling them, alone or in a group, as the situation arises.....
saying to them..... with a smile and without any negative emotions.....
"It must really SUCK.......
to be you" Lupita all confident and truthful, lol. ::Sigh::
And I beleive that it does suck to be them, not that you should really SAY that to them, lol... though I have said it to a past N. Glad I did too, lol!
I believe they secretly hate themselves and thats why the treat other people badly, to try to build themselves up and if they can control people they think are "good" then they own that too. Destructive bad stuff that. We don't have to figure them out though, thank God. We just need to start handling them and our reactions to them, better.
Ahhhhh..... this is from my past, one of my triggers I suppose.
What I think you should do is not worry so much about what they think and busy yourself with finding stuff you like to do without them. SO many things out there to discover and choose or try or reject. You have the power to do that like everybody and anybody does.
Rise above and observe yourself from a great distance, observe yourself like you are a stranger. What advice would you give that woman? What would you like to see that person doing that seems positive and delightful..... where should she go?
When the the book club folk ask you what you're doing.... when you're mother phones you, you can just be busy and on your way out the doo, all the time.
You don't have to tell them where or what or how long, even though you're compelled to do it, and I understand how powerful that compulsion is. To be stay on the phone until you're dismissed. BLECH! You don't have to you can end the conversation too!
You can get better at being cheerfully abrupt and always busy.
Or choosing not to answer phone calls when you see them on caller ID.
The unexpected upside to being busy..... no matter what you're doing is..... people are attracted to busy people!
My mother told me that when I was a teenager and it turned out to be TRUE!
Whether it's because we seem more confident and capable or because people just like to take our attention away in a competition from something, I don't know. But it's true!
My advice is always to find some activities that build you up and skip the ones and people that aren't worthy.
I say it over and over again.
Not easy to do, I never said that, but something to strive for, I think. Not everyone is at that place, not everyone will find that helpful. But there it is.
You found nice people here Lupita. There are nice people in your world too.
BTW ((((LUPITA)))) Do not doubt for a minute that you were raised in an unfair improbable confusing dysfunctional family that does affect and trigger you. You know identify that and that's half the struggle. I CAN'T BELIEVE YOUR MOTHER SHOWED YOU THAT HAIR OR LET YOU GET HURT ON YOUR BIKE OR SWIMMING AND YOU WERE ABUSED BY HER AND YOUR FATHER! Your brother should validate that for you but he just may not be able to. What does it say about him if he does? What does it say about his mother and father, who he needs too? I am so sorry that happened to you (((LUPITA))) SO UNFAIR!
To concentrate on the good replacement things and not on the mean unworthy broken things is a better way to set your mind.
Even while spending time crying and mourning and giving up hope for what you deserved, a loving mama who should have protected and nurtured you, you can go back to concentrating on the blessings and small pleasures in your day afterwards, Lupita.
Now, to replace hert, slowly, with better things: )
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Aww, ((((((((((Lupita)))))))))
I would personally like to dig up your Dad for the pleasure of slowly drowning him. On his bicycle. In a flash flood.
And your mother? She is a gutterpipe for cruelty and I am sure does not even know it. Too broken.
So. Here you are. In the present and full of determination to get what you need in life. GOOD FOR YOU!
I think the best way to begin is as Lighter said, with small blessings. I think it's so easy and seductive and even perversely entertaining (has been for me, anyway) to focus on what we LACK and DON'T have ... that our capacity for gratitude literally withers.
I think happiness is directly connected to gratitude. Please don't confuse that with groveling (as I did). I mean a little contemplation, then intentionally meditating on the gifts in your life. For me, nature is a very good place to begin.
Can you ask yourself, along with all those savage questions you're so brave to ask...
what is beautiful here? what could I go look at for 30 minutes that could bring me joy?
Not about thinking/thoughts/mental monologue...but about "receiving" from a flower or animal...some message that will give you some of the life and strength the universe also dishes out.
I wish it for you, Lupita hon. You've had such a hard time lately, with work and the surgery and your mother's visit. No wonder things are piling up.
love
Hops
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((((((((Lupita))))))))
I think that you are getting away from these hateful people as you connect the hurts of the past with your feelings in the present.
You are getting away from the fear, too.
I know it doesn't feel that way, but I believe you are.
You just keep talking and typing and one day you will look and *poof* that fear will be gone.
With love,
Hope
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Today is Wendnesday. There is an important party on Friday. In my dance school. I do not dare to go alone. I usually went with O's mother. I do not want to go with her anymore. I do not want to do anything with those people. I have to let her know that I will not go with her. I have to. I am very scared. She will see me there. But I will not leave my dance school because of those people. Enough is the book club because O and A control it. But many of them go to the same dance school. That, I do not want to leave. I have to find my way to stay there and I will tell O's mom that I have family visiting. But she will see me there any way.
I have to inforce my boundaries. I do not want to go with her and I have to let her know she needs to find somebody else. Or maybe I have to go with her because it was an agreement previously made. Prrevous to my desicion to cut off them from my life. She is as manipulator as her doughter. She calls me and ask me to go eat at her house. She is retired and has properties. She does not need to work. I have many things to do. I cannot put up with her idleness. I say, I am not hungry, thank you. I am on a diet. She calls three hours later, are you hungry now? NO, I am busy. But you said you were going to come. No I did not say that. But feel terrible for not obeying her.
Oh wow, now I have to tell her that I have family coming. But she will see that I do not. Family visitors come on Saturday. And I do not want to go alone.
Thank you for all your advises, You have been very very helpful.
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I had to do that phonecall on Monday, today is Wednesday and I still have not done it. If I end up going with her because of fear, I am going to be mad. Or if I do not go just not to be with her, I am going to be very mad.
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"Hello O.
I'm sorry but I will be going to be going to the dance on my own.
I'll see you there, and I hope you have a good time.
Can't talk now, I have to go. Good-bye."
You can do it, Lupita.
(Don't explain. Don't stay on the phone.
Say your piece and say good-bye.
My advice is not to lie, that will make you feel bad.
This won't.)
Hops
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It is 2:46 pm and I still have not made that phone call. If she does not call me, is it OK if I just ignore the situation and just go on my own?
I can apologize later.
Why am I so afraid to call this woman?
It might look silly, it is not. It is the basic of why we have been abused all our lives.
This is not superfluous. This is important.
I do not want to face that woman, the same way I do not face a teacher who is making jokes about my class to students that later disrespect me, and the same way I do not want to face my mother, and the same way I get paralized when somebody says something ugly to me instead of being assertive and respond.
Same basics. That is why it is so important.
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Lupita,
Just do it. Make the call. Trust yourself. You are wise and you can handle whatever comes. May not go perfectly. But you know what your non-negotiables are.
I had to make a phone call like that yesterday. Struggled a bit, but it actually turned out better than I had planned. Said the things I needed to say. They were hard for the other person to deal with. But the other person started to understand and even got to the place where she could take her hands off my stuff...even though all she wanted to do was fix my stuff.
My situation is different , I know. But I think you should just JUMP! Bet it will turn out better than you suspect. And if not, you will know what to do and how to feel healthy evaluations of it.
--mof4
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Lupita, This leader of the book club sure does sound like a big fat N to me and if so your instincts are right--he will not like you taking any of his narcissistic supply and you will NOT be welcome! If you dim his light with your passion he will put you down and the others in the group will support him. Of course you should always check things out as much as you can, but my advice is to trust your instincts and listen to that bad vibration.
I don't think you have any interest in being a sheep or you wouldn't have said that. Sheep don't have any passion to begin with--they have to be TOLD what to feel. You obviously don't need that.
I so know the feeling of wanting to belong to something!! But it's a chimera, a false ideal. Belonging to something more often than not simply means being a sheep and being required to say baaaaaa! in chorus with the rest of the herd. And the moment you step out of line, someone will kick you. Some people need that, but I don't think you do. You belong to yourself. You fit with yourself, beautifully, because you are being you.
You start wonderfully everywhere because you are full of life while so many people are not. The only thing that ruins it is your disappointment that other people cannot feel as keenly as you do. I think you're doing fine, Lupita.
Bill
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Hey Lupita:
I hope that all worked out for you. I didn't see your post till just now.
I would have told you to be busy.
Sorry, I'll be coming from somewhere else and not sure about my schedule so I'll have to pass on being your ride.
Sorry, I have plans after class and can't be your ride anymore.
Sorry, I have an irratic schedule coming up..... I won't be able to be your ride.
Sorry, I've decided to go to dance class by myself. I'll see you there. That was Hops suggestion. Scary but..... it's the truth and you're still honest and being authentic Lupita. I don't think you can stand being dishonest about it Lupita.
Whatever you do, you have the right to do it. Your book club people certainly have no trouble doing what they want to do. You may change your mind, even if you're not comfortable taking care your own needs and putting yourself first, it'll get more comfortable as you gain some experience; )
Whatever happened, it'll be ok ((Lupita))
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Hi Lupita-
I too have struggled with group dynamics and with setting people straight in terms of their unrealistic expectations, and unilateral pronouncements. Your health and intelligence (including your emotional intelligence) are not permitting you to slide into a semi-comatose "sheepdom" without a fight! Use your time to do what will serve your highest good Lupe! You obviously have an active and fertile imagination- perhaps your path and connections lie in more creative pursuits, with more creative people like your friend the writer. Cast ye not pearls before swine (and those folks that you have mentioned definitely sound like piggies!).
Hugs,
Changing
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OMG, your posts are so encouraging!!!!! Thank you.
I made the phone call. I told her that I would not be around the area to go with her. She immediately said, "You don't want me to go with you" I said, no no no, I will be far from here. I cannot pick you up. I apologize for that. I am very sorry.
I feel I did the right thing for my own good. I need healthy people. I need healthy friendships. And need to have affinity with the people I gwt together with. Not just anybody just not to be alone.
I have many things that I can do alone. I can even go dancing alone. My dance school has two parties a week I can go alone there. I donot to be begging any friend to go with me.
I can go to Barnes & Noble to read book having a capuccino.
I can got to the gym.
I will beg somebody to go to the beach, but only there and only once a month. Maybe I can find a club with beach activities.
I can go to the library alone.
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Lupita.... (long rant warning stop reading at the point your eyes cross, lol)
from the very bottom of my heart......
as painful as being along is at first.....
being alone is exactly what will change your life.
You will find that you are enough.
You are strong and capable and worthy.
That your skin fits and is really quite comfy.
You'll look around and realize that you are the lucky one.
The mean people are not lucky.... and yes they suck, but that's besides the point.
They are not worthy of your company.
How lucky they were to have you working hard at involving them in your life from a position of need and fear.
They used your need and fear to KEEP YOU feeling weak and needy.... dependant on their crumbs.
Crumbs aren't good enough and now you know.
Now you'll experience your own company and take comfort in it.
It will become refuge instead of lonely panicked prison.
I have been where you are.
The mistake I made was feeling stronger and neglecting to be mindful of all the lessons I learned.
It started with compromise, then went downhill from there.
I will be more careful with myself this time.
I will approach relationships from a place of want. Not need.
I hope you learn from my lessons and commit to solid boundaries without allowing others to talk you out of defending them, as I have done.
I knew better Lupita and still I failed.
::changing gears.... getting upbeat::
Time to erect healthy boundaries, Lupita.
It'll be OK.
You're doing it for the first time.
I'm doing it for the second time.
There may be hiccups along the way but......
I hope you can honor yourself enough.....
to enforce those boundaries like a very alert mama.....
tiger guarding her cub.
Calm and capable.
She knows she can defend that cub.
She doesn't need to stand up and be loud about it.
She can flick her tail and look a challenger in the eye.....
and give them enough information for to know that they won't be poaching her cub today.
Then she's free to go back to enjoyng her life.
She doesn't experience upset the rest of day over the outragouse nerve of a flea or hyena pretending to have good intentions for her or her cub.
And isn't she the lucky one!
Strong and in control and capable and the predators KNOW this just from the way she carries herself.....
just from the look in her eye.
They know.
They go and choose someone else to test.
Ahhhhhh...... I am on a roll and I can't shut up, lol!
Sorry this is so long guys..... but it's been on my mind a lot lately.
I can't afford to have hyenas poaching me or my cubs.
My boundaries are what will keep us safe.
Lighter saying for the day..... "there is no try, only do" Is that right? The Jehdi master, Yoda said something similar, lol.
I have a particularly challenging challenge before me at this time.
I am absolutely committed to standing my ground.
No more fear guiding me.
No more worry about tomorrow.
I can't negotiate with my N.
I have no hope of his honoring any agreement he strikes.
So I won't bother (read that as spend money) to negotiate with him.
If it's war, and it is.... then take me to battle and I'll fight standing without fear of the outcome.
If I fall, then he falls too.
I won't be left lying in the dirt bloody and in debt up to my eyeballs with legal fees while he gloats and dances around all happy that he manipulated me and the system into allowing him to get away with murder.
I won't be left with a Judgement I can't collect or enforce while he's soppin up sun with various and assorted women on a beach while I struggle to raise children alone, hounded by collection agencies.
I simply reject that choice, though my attorney and family would have me choose it.
They don't understand that a reasonable offer from an N is reason for your gaurd to come up. Bring out the big guns (figurative) if they come bearing gifts or make a promise.
I don't want flowers or promises.
I don't..... ahhhh ya.... I realize I'm still ranting but it MUST COME OUT...... want to go to war either but he's counting on my gentle nature to choose the path of least resistance and (figurative) blood shed.
He's wrong this time. He's been right every other time he's pushed me over the line.
I let him push me.
Why would I stop now?
He certainly won't.
I'm the beach donkey (love that Axa) and he's the Master of the universe.
Let's see what happens when the beach donkey takes up a flame thrower and faces the master?
I don't laugh when I say that.
I'm deadly seriouse and I'm truly interested in what happens between a deadly committed beach donkey and deadly committed MOU who's never backed down..... ever.
Simply lied and manipulated, cheated and schemed his way through life without any shame.
LAUGHING about things he's done, that would break you or me with shame, had we committed the same act.
No care as to how the world really views him, though he'd be delighted if he could be viewed as the victim.
He's carefully been cultivating that image of himself and his camp certainly indulge that fantasy, though they know in their hearts that it's not true. What the hell is that, anyway? (Rhetorical)
If you've read this far I thank you for that. I don't need any comments or atta girls on this one. I just needed to put this out there into the ether and let it breath.
::Sigh::
It's gonna be OK.
btw.... Lupita..... I'd like to be in your book club; )
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Lighter,
Been there (still am). For the past year, I have been trying to convince someone--anyone--to believe me that my NH is not in this for the reasonableness of it. He will make a shambles of every "agreement" and try to make everything hopelessly convoluted and impossible to decipher. He is the master of confusion and he is trying to spread a thick layer of it over everything in this divorce.
No one has believed me. I had the same lawyer for six months--he never did believe me. I switched lawyers and I had to start all over. Yesterday, he got it. He said: I understand what you have been trying to tell me. No more messing with this joker. We are going to the wall. It's over.
I cried. Finally.
The first step, Lighter, is for you to finally believe it yourself. The only way this is going to end half-way well is for you to be just as in-your-face as he is. It went against everything I am--I am the supreme pacifist, turn-the-other-cheek, believe the best about someone--but I had to get over that. They have absolutely no internal controls. You could give them everything they want, and they will decide they didnt ask for enough. Ask me how I know.
Stand firm, Lighter. Chin out. Dukes up.
Love
CB
This is the truth...
There is no pacifying N.
There is no "letting N off the hook" in order to simplify matters and expedite closure.
There is no ending it cleanly, neatly, concisely, or reasonably. None.
But I never did put up my dukes... I refused to give him the satisfaction.
What I did was - "show up"... the last thing he expected. He fully expected to wear me down, but I just kept showing up.
Hearing after hearing, I was there... at times, only to find out that he failed to make an appearance >> rescheduled>> more agony...
and yet I kept showing up.
Remember, N's lawyer is presenting agreements, settlements, compromises, and resolutions... assuming that any reasonable person would want this done.
N's lawyer doesn't get it either. This one didn't until it came to the point where he would have to perjure himself in order to continue defending his client.
Then he resigned >> more rescheduling, more hearings, more NoNseNse.
Just keep showing up.
(((((()))))))
Love,
Hope