Voicelessness and Emotional Survival Message Board

Voicelessness and Emotional Survival => Voicelessness and Emotional Survival Message Board => Topic started by: motheroffour on July 26, 2007, 12:23:17 PM

Title: Unable to love myself
Post by: motheroffour on July 26, 2007, 12:23:17 PM: For years I have been arguing with myself over one simple thing....Am I loveable?

I guess I feel like I must need to figure it out. Try to talk myself into it. Try to look at my resume of good traits and try to convince myself that I am not awful. And then I look at the evidence in the other side. I don't feel much loved by the world. My mom loves me....as long as I don't ask for too much, as long as I don't look or do better than see does. My father loves me but withdraws when I show any of my talents. Must play stupid. Must not shine. Must not be anything. Must go along with the program. Love goes away when I am at my best. My heart is breaking again as I type this and tears are streaming down my face. How can I love someone, like me, when I am so evidently unloveable? I repell people. I don't know how to love or show love. Feel it but can't get it out of me. Broken. I am defective in most ways. And I am sitting here arguing again with myself to see that I can love myself even though no one else will. How do I stop needing the love of others? How do I stop needing the world to tell me I am good. I am jealous of some of your friendships on this board. I see you run to each other and stand together with each other. In many ways, I feel like an observer of all of that love. I have been an observer for most of my life. Looking through the glass....wishing for the candy. Each new person I meet or experience that I have seems to reflect the same thing. Love just doesn't come to me. I can want it all day long. I can chase it. I can change myself to get it. But it doesn't come.....and if it does....it comes for a minute when there is an obvious need or dilemma and then it is gone again. Like a puff of smoke. And I try to catch it and keep it. And my hands are empty again. Feels like getting a bowl of every few weeks and then hungry .... so hungry. I know that no one can love me , until I love me. At times I have hated myself and tried to destroy myself so that I could eliminate the stuff in my that causes others so much pain.....causes them to go away. Kinda feel like this is the curse of my life. To forever be in want. Maybe this is black and white thinking. I am sitting here writing this and trusting that I can push the post button. Knowing that I may be ignored. That is ok, if I am. I just don't want to be ignored anymore. I want to love myself. But how can I when any tiny flaw that I have will scare you guys or my family or my husband or the world away from me. It is a lie, right? that I am unloveable? I should believe, right, that I am? Feel like I have files and files proving otherwise. David and Goliath. Little me with my little stone trying to slay this enemy in my head. And I throw the stone...again and again. Goliath gets up again and again too. Trying to silence the debate in my head. I tell myself that I could love myself maybe with a little help. A voice from someone in the real world that knew my and loved me and reminded me that that love is always there. Someone who wouldn't go away if I had a bad day or if I gained a few pounds or if my boobs didn't suffer from the effects of gravity. That maybe I could be loved because my spirit is beautiful cause that is what makes my body beautiful. But that is not how it works. I have to be a picture to be beautiful. Always maintaining the pretty picture or all the love will go away.

I love myself. Ok? I do. I actually like some of my quirks even. I just don't understand why no one else sees good in me. Why people rarely want my company. Why I intimidate others or why they can't celebrate my successes. Why do I have to be invisable to make myself tolerant for others?

I know I am trying to unwind the lies. Maybe I am believing lies and manipulations. My logical brain tells me that. But then it happens where ever I am and with whoever I am with. I am the common denominator. How can I love a person like that?
Title: Re: Unable to love myself
Post by: changing on July 26, 2007, 12:43:57 PM: MotherofFour-

I too have a deep-seated trauma relating to "lovableness". We are social animals, and need each other for survival. What is characterized as love can actually be something else..."I love my car, love my hair today, love my 6-pack abs, etc". We are not our bodies, or jobs, our finances, our mental prowess...We are spiritual essences. If you lost a leg, you would still be as worthy, as human, as much a person, as LOVABLE! In a society as obsessed with material things and hierarchical power as ours is, one can lose sight of reality. Real life is not airbrushed, real love is not for sale! Your value cannot be measured on a list, and is not scientifically observable!
I struggle with isolation and shyness, fear and sensitivity to rejection. As limited as I am , there are still moments of clarity, when I can grow in peace and understanding and yes, love. I am praying for you, and giving you huge warm hugs! It can be painful to confront these feelings (Vanity, vanity, all is vanity saith the Prophet), but you will emerge even stronger, more loving, and with the experience to truly understand, guide, and bless your children through these universally human passages.

God Bless You!

Changing
Title: Re: Unable to love myself
Post by: Certain Hope on July 26, 2007, 01:06:17 PM: Dear Mof4,

Most of my education in matters of the heart has taken place in my current 3-year marriage to my husband.
[ Imagine what he's had to deal with :) ]

Anyhow, he's one of two individuals (the other being a dear lady friend) who've not allowed feeling intimidated by me to prevent them from continuing to reach out. Now, as someone who's always felt herself the very farthest removed from being "intimidating", I'm only just beginning to overcome the shock of this realization.

Without writing a book at this point, I must say that it's come to my attention that - people KNOW :shock: when we expect so much from ourselves (and correspondingly, from them). For me, it's been so tangled up with perfectionism, judgmentalism, etc. ad nauseum
(the very active, vocal presence of my mother in my head) that I needed to hear a basic fact of life (or a dozen +) stated in the very simplest terms possible.

This happened for me in the course of complaining to a dear friend about my husband's immaturities. Of course, I acknowledged to her that I'm aware of my own immaturities (which she hardly needed me to point out to her - lol) and I expressed to her the fact that I understand where my husband is coming from with these things, because I've been there, but - oh, how I longed for an adult partner.
Well, she listened carefully and then lovingly said, in the very gentlest tone, perhaps if he felt safe to discuss these things with you, you two would be able to get to the bottom of it.
It was then that I realized... I had only come as far as I had in this process because my husband had allowed me to pour out my own failings and hurts and doubts without attaching any judgment or demand for reciprocation. He doesn't expect perfection... from himself or from me. Sometimes I think he's too lax on his requirements for himself... but then I tell that mother in my head to hush.

Okay, I see how far afield I've gone, but there was a point when I began... about love...
I think that people are repelled by the need (desperation?) they sense at first contact... when we expect too much from ourselves and from them. No matter how contented they may appear on the surface, I believe that everyone struggles... or gives up the struggle... because relationships are just plain work!
On the other hand (and this is only my opinion) - I think that many people simply do not want to engage at deeper levels, and so they are frightened by those who long for more than the most shallow of relationships. So, in many ways, the difficulties are just as much about "them" as it is about "us". In my life, I have not found many folks who are sincerely empathic and interested in travelling to greater depths in relationship. Of course, I recognize that someone would have had to practice the patience of a saint to get that far with the likes of me :) but... I think it's rare nonetheless.

Mof4, you seem exceptionally loveable to me. Honest, sincere, genuine, motivated, brimming over with so much to share...

Is it possible that the real challenge may be in learning to receive the love which others are able to give... recognizing that for some it may be drop by drop and not in buckets-full?

Hugs to you.

Love,
Hope

P.S. to Changing... that was beautiful and true to me! Thank you!
Title: Re: Unable to love myself
Post by: motheroffour on July 26, 2007, 01:41:14 PM: I see the truth of that .... both of you. Ahhhhh......my curse of being needy. Embarrassing. Sucky! I am 37. So much time I waste being needy. I feel 12 right now. Feel so stupid. Wanting too much from others. Feeling empty and wanting something to fill it. Maybe I am a people junkie......

Yucky to see the truth! But that is why I wrote the post. Knew that was my weakness. Thru it out there because I knew someone could see what i can't. Hard to hear the truth. Feel myself cover my eyes. But with courage I will recieve it. Try to focus my energy on taking care of filling my own bucket. Try to be grateful for what people do give. Wow. Receiving love. That is a tough one. My foo taught me not to do that. And I am afraid the lesson stuck. I am not sure I understand yet how to unstick it. How can I need it so bad and then not recieve it when it comes, in whatever form it comes. Thats messed up. Dang. But .........back to work with refocused efforts.
Title: Re: Unable to love myself
Post by: isittoolate on July 26, 2007, 01:41:51 PM: Quote
My mom loves me....as long as I don't ask for too much, as long as I don't look or do better than see does. My father loves me but withdraws when I show any of my talents. Must play stupid. Must not shine.

Hi mo4 (http://www.slrkelowna.ca/rose2.gif)

The quote tells me that you never felt really loved by your parents? That appears to be the beginning of everyone's problems with self-worth, loving oneself. (It was mine, anyway)

Your kids and husband are still with you--that's a positive!

You have ME (positive or negative?) and you have the board.

In my outings and in chatting with clerks or mechanics etc. I find my mind going to the deeper parts of what we here are all wanting and try to picture them in the midst of one of these 'heavy' conversations. I can't. Men and women alike.

It's been a long time since I have been with someone who loved me and that is over 30 years ago--the one love of my life.

It's been a long time since I have been in deep conversations like we have on this board--like 15 years ago.

I don't feel loved, per se, but my feelings of self-worth /esteem have picked up tremendously in the last 5 years. I know that my workmates like me and appreciate me and that's all I need.----but then I am older.

It has helped me to leave an N and recover from that trauma, and come out of the situation far better than he did. I had jobs fall into my lap. (divine intervention?--well now it is by word of mouth, and THAT is an ego booster, to be recommended.) Where I shine is in my work!

My stress is relieved, therefore the accompanying body aches and pains and I feel good about me for the first time in a long, long, time and a lot of it has to do with tossing it all onto this Board and receiving support---there's a word my family knows nothing about.

It has also helped that my therapist sees me as strong and competent..... and it is wonderful to be connecting with my feelings again. (That was my original reason for joining here...I could not 'feel anything'... all the traumas had reduced me to robot state.) The therapist in her very gentle way talks about things i.e. traumas I have known, and works her magic and Voila the magic is working. The way it is done can not be done at home, but I can still watch for the feelings that are becoming known to me.

At least at this point I can say there is no way I can any longer say that I hate myself. I love me now! THAT is the first step, to love yourself and it has taken me 68 years.

I don't know if this is of ANY help to you....I thought it just might show you there is hope, becasue if I can begin changing for the better (and that is to NOT be around any negative people) at my age ANYONE can!!

Love
Izzy
(http://www.slrkelowna.ca/goldivider6.gif)
Title: Re: Unable to love myself
Post by: CB123 on July 26, 2007, 01:48:39 PM: Izzy,

It is SO EXCITING to see how far you've come! Those of us who remember your very first post know all the work you have put into this process. And look at you now!!!!

You are a blessing to me, Iz.

CB
Title: Re: Unable to love myself
Post by: isittoolate on July 26, 2007, 01:56:10 PM: Oh Thank you CB (http://www.slrkelowna.ca/musicNotes.gif)

I love that I am a blessing and yes I have come a long way---many days without a complaint!!!!

Thank you. You are a blessing to me too--- it helps to boost my self-esteem (keep it boosted.)
Love

Izzy
Title: Re: Unable to love myself
Post by: Certain Hope on July 26, 2007, 02:10:21 PM: Mof4,

Just some further thoughts...
If it's a curse to be needy, then it's equally a curse to spend a lifetime denying that one has needs.
My mother has been so unable or unwilling to admit her needs for relationship that she's always tried to fill that need via controlling every aspect of her circumstances and by filling her surroundings with things.
I think of her words to me when an aunt of mine became involved in relationship with a man after her husband's death... a man who was needy, in my mother's eyes - a man whose health was not so good and, as far as my mother was concerned, was only looking for a nursemaid. Well, maybe he was... but she had no reason to presume that. At any rate, my mother's message came through to me loud and clear: My aunt was a fool, in her view, to encumber herself with another man... she was weak to desire relationship more than freedom of her time and money and all the control she could have if she didn't make herself "slave" to someone else.
So - having emotional needs is equated to slavery - that's the message I received and lived by, for years. It's not that she doesn't want to serve others - she just doesn't know how to do it from love. It's all duty and obligation and oh what a martyr she is to the cause of everyone else's needs, all the while convincing herself that she has none of her own. Ack!

So... who is cursed? Those who deny desires and needs, imo... because, imo, God created us for relationship... and, first and foremost, a relationship with Him - and not with stuff and things, not with grand professions and illusions of control, not with self.

Being 12 again is disorienting, I know... but this time, it's a stage which will rapidly advance with knowledge, wisdom, and understanding - gained and applied - at every level.
These are spiritual matters. I know that popular opinion states we must learn to love ourselves first, but my experience has proven to me, and the Holy Spirit bears witness, that the first thing I need to do is to learn to receive God's love, in Jesus Christ.
He fills my bucket. Sometimes I force the lid back on and say - no, now this one I really must sort through myself, thank You very much... I am not yet done working this issue over. So He waits till I wear myself out on that one and remove the lid once again. I can sure exhaust myself, but what I've found, time and again, is that it's absolutely impossible to exhaust the grace of God.
I've made my own recovery quite complicated at times, by puttin that lid onto my bucket. I think it's time for a lid-burying ceremony.

With love,
Hope

P.S. to CB - About this: Does that mean that you feel that it's worth it to spend the money if you have something "to show for it"?

Yup yup - that hit home. Thank you! :) Love, Hope
Title: Re: Unable to love myself
Post by: bigalspal on July 26, 2007, 02:50:06 PM: Hi MOf4,
I really don't have anything to add, but my love & support.
That's because I feel just like you do.
Thanks for posting this topic. I believe it will help me, too.
Thanks,
Bigalspal
Title: Re: Unable to love myself
Post by: motheroffour on July 26, 2007, 02:52:22 PM: CB,
It is not really about "having something to show for it" . It is really just about fear. Not really about the money at all. Just the fear. Just listed things I want to do some day. Didn't really think about that deeply.

To all,

Trying hard to put it all together. I was never allowed to have needs. So, I tucked them all away. My needs seems to make others so uncomfortable. If I express them to my family or friends then I am too needy and I repell them. TARBABY! I see that you are saying that there is balance. I am struggling to find the balance. What role does God play? What role do I play? What role do others play? I know there is a balance somewhere here. I feel a bit dense trying to comprehend it in terms I can apply daily and not just platitudes. Perhaps I am trying too hard. Kinda sick of mornings like today and yesterday. Feeling the pain of the "self love" perdicament is live and well. Another day.....another year....same problem raising its ugly head. I am sick of it. Literally sick to death of it.

AMi, said maybe I am not trusting myself on a deep level. or maybe I don't honor my feelings. and that sets me up to be a victim. It sounds really true. Lupita is talking about boundaries. That all seems really good to me if I could just unlock why it is so hard for me to do. -- practice, patience, practice, patience....

CB, Maybe you are right. Take my focus off. Let it come to me in whatever way it will.

Thanks all of you. Feel love from all of you. I will take that to the bank. :)

I think I am going to bed now. Too tired to continue. My head is flooded.

much love,
mof4
Title: Re: Unable to love myself
Post by: Hopalong on July 26, 2007, 03:22:26 PM: Hi Mo4,
As you may know, I'm agnostic...I resonate a lot with how it feels to be needy, though I don't feel it much in recent years (hon, I was in my 50s before I grappled with it). CB's advice resonates powerfully with me, because it fits so many of the things I've read and think about. Such as the concept of "flow". And why altruism (direct contact with people, as in The Healing Power of Doing Good by Alan Luks) benefits the giver in real ways (literally lowers blood pressure, for example).

I think literally losing yourself in a flow of delight by doing something you enjoy and are good at, something that creates something or fills a real need...is how you figure out what love is.

You never "get" love. You have to let it get you, I think. And one way to prepare the way, is to experience the amazement of the universe by doing, and see what gratitude looks and feels like by giving.

I think all the thinking about feeling...is invaluable. At the same time, I think it's hard to find balance if there's not enough doing and giving to balance you. IOW, long hours of introspection might be too much time. There are some periods, and maybe this is one for you, where there's a great deal of intense inner work that produces a breakthrough. But after a while, the only way those breakthroughs really manifest their gifts is when you are engaged with the world.

love
Hops
Title: Re: Unable to love myself
Post by: Certain Hope on July 26, 2007, 03:38:42 PM: Dear Mof4,

I've found that God plays as large a role in my life, from moment to moment, as I will allow Him to fill.
For me, it's been a matter of unlocking those closets and cupboards of my inner house where I'd not previously granted Him entrance... because I though that it was my job to fumigate them first.

Rest well...

Love,
Hope
Title: Re: Unable to love myself
Post by: Ami on July 26, 2007, 05:22:17 PM: Dear Hope, Thank you so much for your posts. They were like a cool drink of water on a hot day. They answered a big question for me.
The last time that I "enjoyed" people was when I was 14. Then, I was "real" and I loved myself. I had had many friends at all levels of friendship since then . The problem was that I was not there. Also, I needed them to affirm and validate me in some way.I was "needy"
I had friends b/c I forced myself to do this. I figured that I needed people BUT I never enjoyed it too much.
Now, I know the reason. I needed them , emotionally. I was in fear that they would not meet my needs and then I would have to face my deep feelings of worthlessness and shame. I think that people were a way to keep trying to find the answer of "Was I O.K.?". So, it was not fun and was not relaxing. It was stressful.
I agree with Hope that God needs to fill the bucket. I can't do it. I know that . I can't do anything in my own strength. Thank God that He is bigger and stronger than I am.It is the only thing that keeps me going.
Hope, I solved my problem of myself and relationships today. THANK YOU, Dear Friend Love Ami
Title: Re: Unable to love myself
Post by: Certain Hope on July 26, 2007, 05:44:25 PM: Quote from: Ami on July 26, 2007, 05:22:17 PM
Dear Hope, Thank you so much for your posts. They were like a cool drink of water on a hot day. They answered a big question for me.
The last time that I "enjoyed" people was when I was 14. Then, I was "real" and I loved myself. I had had many friends at all levels of friendship since then . The problem was that I was not there. Also, I needed them to affirm and validate me in some way.I was "needy"
I had friends b/c I forced myself to do this. I figured that I needed people BUT I never enjoyed it too much.
Now, I know the reason. I needed them , emotionally. I was in fear that they would not meet my needs and then I would have to face my deep feelings of worthlessness and shame. I think that people were a way to keep trying to find the answer of "Was I O.K.?". So, it was not fun and was not relaxing. It was stressful.
I agree with Hope that God needs to fill the bucket. I can't do it. I know that . I can't do anything in my own strength. Thank God that He is bigger and stronger than I am.It is the only thing that keeps me going.
Hope, I solved my problem of myself and relationships today. THANK YOU, Dear Friend Love Ami

Ami,

If something I can share helps, I'm glad.
I'm sorry that I do not better understand where you are, but very happy for you in your progress toward healing!

You see, I feel like the underlying lie which held me back from a lifetime of potentially healthy relationships was this notion that I must never, ever, display for the slightest bit of vulnerability. It was forbidden to need.
I enjoyed people, friends... but only to the extent that I had something to offer them - to give, to help... and then some would say, "I'd like to get to know you better" and I'd wonder - what's to know?
There was nothing. If I wasn't giving and doing and performing, I was empty.
And then, just in the past 3 years, I met Jesus. I don't have to do or perform for Him.

For me, there is no place to which to return. No time to fondly recall - ahh, yes, those were the days when I loved myself.
There was no "me" who suddenly disappeared into a vacuum... only a very large, very empty place.
Jesus filled that space.

Love,
Hope
Title: Re: Unable to love myself
Post by: Ami on July 26, 2007, 06:11:12 PM: Hope,
I don't understand your last paragraph? Did you ever love yourself? what exactly are you saying. I would love to understand . Thanks Ami
Title: Re: Unable to love myself
Post by: Certain Hope on July 26, 2007, 06:46:21 PM: Quote from: Ami on July 26, 2007, 06:11:12 PM
Hope,
I don't understand your last paragraph? Did you ever love yourself? what exactly are you saying. I would love to understand . Thanks Ami

Sorry, Ami, I guess that was a bit cryptic.

When I wrote that, I was thinking of what you've said about the time up until you were 14 years old - this time when you felt comfortable within yourself. I can't imagine that... I suppose because my mother's effects on me had already taken their toll, long before the teenage years.
I remember being very, very shy... feeling security only in our home, with my parents. I know that's much more than many folks have had... who were never safe even in their own homes as children. But I'd hide behind my mother and even run to hide when out in the yard, if a car would approach to pass by our house.
So no, I don't remember ever "loving" myself.
I do remember being terrified that I would lose my mother... that she would be gone and I would have nothing.
And I remember a fear of waking up without my sight... opening my eyes in the middle of the night and thinking that I had gone blind.
The concept of "loving myself" just doesn't compute when I think back over all those years. It's not that there weren't some things I was able to enjoy... just that a concept of "self" did not exist... let alone "loving" self.

Love,
Hope
Title: Re: Unable to love myself
Post by: motheroffour on July 26, 2007, 08:05:07 PM: ALL,
Thanks for the support on this. I really appreciate you saying what you did. And for your patience with me as I risk the expression of my weakest areas. I can feel that you have "been there". That gives me hope.

CB & Hops, thanks again for the words of encouragement. Really liking this idea of looking outward. I need to put more of my focus in that direction. Maybe some day I will have something to show for the effort. This idea feels peaceful to me and helps me to take some of the pressure off myself. Going to pray for strength in this area. For courage to try. To fight the fear and do it anyway.

Izzy, Thanks for just being there. Can't say anymore cuz I am kinda tearful. Sometimes it helps just to hear the encouragment. The "you can do it" message.

Praying for more faith, trust, and patience as I try to move forward,

mof4
Title: Re: Unable to love myself
Post by: Iphi on July 26, 2007, 11:07:21 PM: mo4 this topic you have created really blows me away. I am in awe of your bravery in going for the gusto with this. It is inspiring. For some reason, it really wasn't until reading your posts and Ami's posts on this board that the idea of coming forward with my persistent weak areas really came to the front of my own mind. Don't know why as I've been reading this forum for some months now. Not to say I will have the courage to do as you have done, but the idea is there. :lol:

This topic also galvanized my thoughts in some other ways. I definitely know that unloved feeling so well. But not recently. But what has changed? It used to always be with me and now it isn't. When did that happen? This topic made me realize these things and made me inquire into myself about the changes of recent years.

It made me realize something I want to share with you. This is going to sound nutty I fear. I started allowing myself to receive love from several sources.

Books were the earliest and are the strongest influence in my life. The way I see it, when an author puts a book out there, they are putting parenting out there. They are sending their parenting out into the world so that what they know (and put in the book) can be received by teachable people. Even many fiction books have life lessons from the author in them. Sometimes it isn't right up front, but in the way the author writes about people or events, appreciating their qualities and accepting them, or enjoying them. I experience books as loving and inclusive: they include me.

The next thing is music. Same thing - I feel like the composer and the musicians are putting themselves into it and giving it out there and it can be received. I don't know what maternal love feels like to receive, but there is one singer who gives me that experience, whose name is Lisa Gerrard. When I discovered her work in 1993, I didn't listen to any other music at all until 1996 or 1997. I just played her music over and over. In my opinion, it is Medicine. I found that someone posted a video on youtube of a live performance of one of her most moving songs. I found the camera too shaky to watch, but I was at the concert where this was filmed and tears were running down my face as I heard this song for the first time. It was overwhelmingly maternal and comforting: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bsOim9n8aLk

I don't have anything figured out, but at least we can share things that work for us!
Title: Re: Unable to love myself
Post by: Ami on July 26, 2007, 11:39:01 PM: Dear Iphi,
I am so, so so glad that you are here. Whenever I see your name, I know that you will offer wisdom and humility. I am so glad that my posts helped you to "come" out and share your voice.
I had in the back of my mind that there must be people out there who can relate ,but are silent. It gives me a boost to know that I am not alone Love and a Big Hug Ami
Title: Re: Unable to love myself
Post by: isittoolate on July 26, 2007, 11:41:01 PM: Quote
many fiction books have life lessons from the author in them. Sometimes it isn't right up front, but in the way the author writes about people or events, appreciating their qualities and accepting them, or enjoying them. I experience books as loving and inclusive: they include me.

Iphi

I was so pleased that this happens to you too.

Some authors have the ability to put you right into the scene, the rain, the blizzard, the heat.....(I might be reading and think "I can't go out. It's pouring!"................but in the book, not for real.........
.... and then they've created their characters, their personalitities. their relationships..........

..........then they put a couple together either romantically, or say 2 cops as partners, or 2 lawyers, same sex, oppositer sex whatever and I can see all this being true to life as it is so believeable.

Have you read Nelson DeMille? Night Flight, Plum Island, Wild Fire---wow he has a guy who would drive me nuts, but this guy's wife knows how to handle him. I love how DeMille has this guy say one thing and also shows what he would LIKE to have said. I laugh and I groan but I sure enjoy his books.

Now someone who really knows sociopaths too is Joy Fielding. The first book of hers that I read was "Kiss Momma Goodbye" and I swear Fielding lived with an N, the way she had the crazymaking dialogue down pat. I've enjoyed ALL her books--when I can get them at the Library.

I have many authors I follow and read a book a week usually....but if there is 'foreign language" it slows me down as well as, say, Russian cities, or Italian Streets......,

Fun

Great
Hang in

Izzy

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Title: Re: Unable to love myself
Post by: motheroffour on July 27, 2007, 09:16:00 AM: Iphi,

I too love books and music! They have literally been my salvation this last year.....sustaining me as I go. I think music means more to me than ever. I have decided that song writers must "know" what it is to suffer or progress thru pain. The lyrics seem so powerful. My H and I laugh with each other sometimes because we catch ourselves unusually tearful when listening. The music just means so much to us!

I often think of books like "Les Mis"...ones that have literally changed my life in the reading. Sometimes I don't know if I am more like Fantine or Jean val jean or even Javier. Victor Frankel, I have heard many of you mention, and others. Even Harry Potter. Just finished book 7. So many great take aways!

Thanks for sharing what works for you. I am glad for you. Glad you are feeling good about yourself. Hope some day to get to the point where I dont have to argue with myself over worth anymore. Where my boundaries protect me and where I feel safe in the venturing outward. Feeling loved and filled up through books and music...it is a great concept!

CB,

I am a Little House fan as well. I think I have the series memorized. Looking for that parenting example too. My H makes kindly teases me a little, but I still tear up at certain episodes!
Title: Re: Unable to love myself
Post by: Certain Hope on July 27, 2007, 10:02:38 AM: Thank you all for this. I hadn't recognized that "Little House" is still so deep in my heart.
Seems like it was someone else who treasured that series so... first the books and then the television program... but she's still there, within me. Those characters were more real to me than any of the people I knew personally. Ma didn't go shopping up at the general store to buy dresses for herself that she brought home and secreted away in the closet... and Pa talked with Laura and Mary, not taking offense at the education his girls were getting, but actually conversing with them with interest, like they were real people... amazing.

NPD-ex drove the music and reading out of me.
How many choruses of "When a Man Loves a Woman" can one hear before wanting to vomit?
All he wanted to hear were drippy, sad, Dean Martin style love songs.... except for one - "Don't Worry, Be Happy". And so I dutifully disappeared, into his interests and likes... and dislikes. After all, that's what I was trained to do - to disappear.

Yesterday I sat down at the piano because my daughter is interested in it.. she just learned the bass cleff (not applicable to her alto sax, so this is new to her.) We got out some old instruction books from my childhood and I played a few simple studies from one that was dated, still with the little star and snowflake stickers, showing that I'd completed them way back then... when I was 9 years old.
They were brand new to me this time. New as in fresh and appealing... enjoyable even, in their simplicity. My "I need to start from scratch with this" over-ruled the shame of being back so far in the process. I want to learn again... this time of my own desire, not because my mother is standing nearby with her yardstick to keep me at the bench. I want to learn everything again... with my new eyes and ears.
And I realized... I don't know when it began, but when I used to play the piano, I always held down the pedal rather than making my hands do the work of the slurs and the breaks... everything blurred together, just like my thinking... just like my life. This time, my foot had no desire to use the pedal. I only wanted to hear the notes, each one, and to see the phrasing as it is written and heed it. My choice.

I just finished reading (from the library) The Remains of the Day, by Kazuo Ishiguro.
Mr. Stevens' preoccupation with what he considers to be his "dignity" is much the way I think my mother views herself.
Since I don't believe in coincidence, I'm convinced that it's a "God-thing" that I happened to pick up this little book the last time I took my kids to the library. Here's an excerpt:

"And of course, any butler who regards his vocation with pride, any butler who aspires at all to a 'dignity in keeping with his position'...should never allow himself to be 'off duty' in the presence of others. It really was immaterial whether it was Miss Kenton or a complete stranger who had walked in at that moment. A butler of any quality must be seen to inhabit his role, utterly and fully; he cannot be seen casting it aside one moment simply to don it again the next as though it were nothing more than a pantomime costume. There is one situation and one situation only in which a butler who cares about his dignity may feel free to unburden himself of his role; that is to say, when he is entirely alone."

Yup. My mother is entirely alone. I hope she feels unburdened... but I don't think so.

Love,
Hope
Title: Re: Unable to love myself
Post by: motheroffour on July 27, 2007, 11:45:00 AM: CH,

Love the gentle love I see you putting toward your mother. It is a beautiful thing for you to empathize with her postition even though she hurt you so badly.

--mof4
Title: Re: Unable to love myself
Post by: motheroffour on July 27, 2007, 12:19:41 PM: Trying to process this stuff.....I feel determined.....

I think I have got to separate my worth from the stuff I do. Constantly feel like I am trying to guess what the other person wants and needs and then I try to be that for them......and fail. Then I beat myself up for not being myself and selling out. Watch myself do it. Feel like a trained monkey. I knew as a young child that something was wrong in my family. Didn't know what is was. Started to figure it out when I was in my teens. Always bucked against the pressures and pulls of the dysfunction. I became the "trouble maker" in my family. I didn't try, back then, so hard to make everyone happy. I remember really just going for it and being myself. I remember so many experiences that for one reason or another taught me that it was not safe to be myself, to think my thoughts, or to participate freely in the world. My course changed to a more protective position. I think I decided that I was no longer worth showing to the world. That I had some kind of defect, if not universal defect, inside of me. Perfection and performance! And I had success with this! During college, I had a lot of success with this. I had lots of friends and I dated an awful lot. I was successful in my endevors and got a lot of praise. I kept seeing the success ..... and then feeling the emptiness at the same time. Resented some of these guys who were "so in love with me" who really didn't even know me. After that, I decided that I would only be myself. So, then came the loneliness. No interest from anyone. Not family or friends. Then I married and thought my prospects had brightened, but then came more pain than I had ever faced. The N culture and the world of addiction hit a very vulnerable target -- me! I saw how happy all them were with friends and family always around and what looked like such deep and rich relationships. I thought I hit the mother load! Thought God had finally brought me to a place where I would be safe and where I would find acceptance. I was so so so wrong! Boy, I sure became that trained puppy. Jump when I say jump! Being spun and spun like that top!! And the searing disappointment that what I though was love was so far from that.

Now, I don't want to believe that love only comes with compliance. I want to believe that there are people in the world who do look beyond the surface and see the worth of souls is great!! And as I wish for the friends who will really see what I am about.....and like me anyway, that I learn to be that kind of friend to myself. Maybe it is that quiet work that I must do with God at my side. I am reminded of a children's book about a wooden puppet named Punchinello who lives in a town that gives stars to those who are "good" and "dots" to those who are not. Punchinello is covered with dots. He meets a girl of whom the dots and starts don't stick. She teaches Punchinello that she gets her worth from the Carver...the one who created all of the puppets in the first place. She takes Punchinello to meet him. He figures out how to make the dots and stars NOT stick.

I am also reminded of a John Mayer song called, "I'm in Repair". One line says, "I'm in repair. I'm not together but I'm getting there."

--mof4
Title: Re: Unable to love myself
Post by: Hopalong on July 27, 2007, 07:30:29 PM: Iphi,
I utterly relate to this:

Quote
I experience books as loving and inclusive: they include me.

The next thing is music. Same thing - I feel like the composer and the musicians are putting themselves into it and giving it out there and it can be received.

Thank you so much for expressing it.

Hops
Title: Re: Unable to love myself
Post by: lighter on July 28, 2007, 12:30:19 PM: Love isn't about compliance, MO4. You're certainly right about that.

::Sending you support::... I'm in your corner.
Title: Re: Unable to love myself
Post by: Ami on July 28, 2007, 04:57:37 PM: Dear Mo4
What you said in your post above was what I was trying to communicate to you . Love Ami
Title: Re: Unable to love myself
Post by: Certain Hope on July 29, 2007, 01:22:04 PM: Dear Mof4,

This business of separating self-worth from what I do is a huge one for me, too. Felt like I'd pretty well accomplished some major changes in this, as far as recognizing that it's not my role in life to make others feel happy or complete, regardless of the cost.
And yet there's a constant struggle to simply relax, to rest in peace... because if I don't accomplish tons of stuff in a day, I wind up feeling like I goofed off and must somehow make up for it the next. Lately, in setting out to make lists of all the things that I could choose to do and to prioritize those items...
I realized that in checking items off my list, I was still feeding that old notion that who I am is summed up by what I can accomplish.
So here's my revised list:

1) Spend time alone in communication with God... not just talking in a frantic prayer full of requests and apologies, but genuine conversation, where I'm still at times (that's a tough one) and just listening (reading the Bible and then allowing for long pauses to hear that quiet voice).

2) Share that stillness of spirit which I receive from that time spent with the Lord with my husband and children and friends. In that sharing comes more refilling, as opposed to the draining which happens when trying to relate to people who only want to drain me dry.

3) When faced with a challenge from difficult people and circumstances that threaten to drain me, I immediately close the gate and ask questions later. I stop the pleasing/doing/working-cycle short, before it begins spinning out into a life of its own, and go back to step 1 for refilling.

Anyhow, my lists used to be miles long, but they're really short these days... and they don't include every single thing I can think of that needs doing, fixing, organizing, and re-arranging around my home or in my life, because out of those two items above, all the rest flows... almost without any thought.

Feels like I'm learning the lesson Punchinello learned. That's such a lovely story and I wanted to thank you when I first read it here, but my emotional puddle was drained. But I've been thinking on it ever since, and wondering... to stop the score-keeping & all the comparing of dots to stars...
what is the glue that makes them stick, after all? To me, the glue is the notion that there is anything in this world we can do to make God love us any more than He already does, in Jesus Christ. It's His love which washes off the glue, so it's God's love in which I want to steep myself first, and then others, in order to remain free. I don't know the song "I'm In Repair", but I do believe that you're getting there... and me, too. Thank you again for sharing your heart here.

With love,
Hope
Title: Re: Unable to love myself
Post by: motheroffour on July 29, 2007, 01:41:49 PM: Lighter,

Thanks for the support! Really you are doing well and that life if giving you the solutions or respites or support you need. I am unfamiliar with your situational details...since I am so new here. But I have been thinking of you.

Wishing the best things to come to you and peace in the interim,
mof4
Title: Re: Unable to love myself
Post by: motheroffour on July 29, 2007, 01:49:01 PM: Hope,

You are a gentle soul! You feel to me like the stone that has been rubbed smooth by all of your bumps! Your children are lucky!
Thanks for listening with such a gentle attitude. So happy for you and your progress. Thank you for sharing these thoughts with me.

much love,
mof4
Title: Re: Unable to love myself
Post by: Certain Hope on July 29, 2007, 02:38:26 PM: Quote from: motheroffour on July 29, 2007, 01:49:01 PM
Hope,

You are a gentle soul! You feel to me like the stone that has been rubbed smooth by all of your bumps! Your children are lucky!
Thanks for listening with such a gentle attitude. So happy for you and your progress. Thank you for sharing these thoughts with me.

much love,
mof4

Well, thank you, Mof4, but I neglected to mention that Step 3 occasionally has a brief lag known as "grumpy mode", in between the shutting of the gate and the going for refilling... lol :P I spent part of yesterday around my home here in GM, as I think I'll call it... we've had alot of togetherness here for the past week or so, and I was sorely feeling the lack of peace and quiet. Anyhow, I still have plenty of practicing to do... thank you for your encouragement!
Still spinning around here, but this time it's on the Potter's wheel and not in the hands of N.

Much love to you always, Mof4,

Hope
Title: Re: Unable to love myself
Post by: motheroffour on July 29, 2007, 07:13:58 PM: hope,

I must apologize. You are so good at jumping in to support others. I must admit that I don't know much of your current situation. Maybe you are just referring to "normal" day to day stressors or schedules. Whatever makes you spin, I think you are doing great. And I love the GM thang!!! I usually add chocolate to and a movie! Then I can go back to the grind-stone!