Voicelessness and Emotional Survival Message Board
Voicelessness and Emotional Survival => Voicelessness and Emotional Survival Message Board => Topic started by: Starfish on August 22, 2007, 11:26:15 AM
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I have managed to wind my way through the labyrinth of blogs, and information about N people and ended up here.
I am 43, and the daughter of an Nmom. I always have had a tenuous relationship with my mom, but never heard or considered she was a narcissist until my therapist (whom I was seeing for grief counseling after my husband died) mentioned she thought she sounded like an N. This was a few years ago, and after some recent events her commnet popped into my head and I started reading about N people....sure enough, my mom fits the profile. While not as bad a some, she is classic N. But don't try to tell her that! :lol:
For the most part I don't have contact with her, we go for months on end without talking (thank god she lives on the east coast and I on the west) but when we do...either she is making jabs at me, or talking about herself.
I start to wonder if she ever really listens to what I am saying, because as soon as I say something she is off and running about herself and then the conversation is derailed. I actually prefer it to her "pointed silences,, and comments about my life.
Plenty of time to go into it, I guess.
I am a dogmom, two lovely boys (Labs). No children of the furless variety. I am actually getting remarried next Saturday to a wonderful guy that I have been with for about 2 years. We found each other by luck and maybe a little bit of fate, and we have a nice, easy, fun and happy relationship. I never thought I would get lucky in love twice in my life.
I guess that is the basics about me.
I am the child of an Nmom trying to cope in a world that revolves around her.
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Hi starfish,
Welcome to the board and congratulations on your impending nuptials.
Sorry to hear about your first husband. He must have passed away quite young.
Sorry to hear about your mother as well.
mud
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Do I just jump right in?
Has anyone here ever tried to "tell" someone about their Nmom, only to have their stories poo-pooed or discounted.
Recently a friend of mine said to me "that it was just my side of the story", when I mentioned that my mom would react in a certain way. While, in essence, that is a true statement...I was blown away.
I have spent years second guessing myself in regard to my relationship with my mom, and even people who don't know her defend her. Of course this person had a lovely relationship with her parents, and so the stories are hard for her to comprehend, I guess.
G, my partner, even has a hard time understanding where I am coming from.
I did not what to call her and tell her I was getting married. I DREADED it. I knew one of two things would happen. One, she would want me to do it her way, and make it a major issue when I insisted that it would be our way. (We are getting married by a friend at the beach and having a potluck afterward....no big to-do) or twqo, she would change thesubject after a quick exclamation and then the conversation would be about her illnesses, how mean my brother or sister have been to her(or aunt and uncle..whomever) her neighbors dog...anything to divert the conversation away from what is happening with me. Even though she asks...she doesn't really care. It is just a way to access a new talking point for her.
Bah! See, I can't even write effectively about our "relationship".
Here is one of my memories as a young adult.
At the age of 14 (i am the youngest of 3) my mom decides to leave my stepdad. We lived in germany at the time, so she packs the tow of us up and drags me to AZ, where we know not a soul. She proceeds to sleep all day (pills) and works graveyards as a dispatcher. I am left to fend for myself in a place where I am completely isolated. She moved us to the furthest end of town where there is nothing for miles.
She OD's on drugs, I take care of it. I pay the bills, grcery shop, wake her for her shifts (when she isn't calling in sick) and get myself to school. The only joy I have is our 2 dogs, whom I have had since childhood. We had them flown back with us. I walked them, slept with them and fed them. They were my only companions.
I finbally started to make friends after a year or so, and one day I come home and my mom is packing our stuff. I ask where she is going. She says we are moving to the other side of town. I am switching schools again).
I was floored. Devastated. I had just started to get my bearings here.
I go to get the leashes for the dogs, Madchen and Taffy. They are not there, and neither are the dogs. My mother had taken them that day to the pound. I cired and cried...I am still crying. I know they were too old to get adopted. I asked why? Why did she do this thing? She replied coldly..."they took too much of my time". What she really meant was I spent too much of MY time loving them instead of paying attention to her. I am sure to this day that is why we moved. I was getting to be a little more free of her, and she could not have that.
I will never ever forgive her for what she did to those poor dogs, and that poor girl. It has been almost 30 years and I still cry for my poor pup's.
After a year and a half of living on the far reaches of the other side of town, just as I was making friends and adapting to my new life...my mother decides we are moving again. This time to California.
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Hi starfish,
Welcome to the board and congratulations on your impending nuptials.
Sorry to hear about your first husband. He must have passed away quite young.
Sorry to hear about your mother as well.
mud
Hi Mudpuppy,
Love the name...
Yes, he died young. Too young for sure.
Thanks for responding...
I wasn't sure what the protocol for newbies would be on this forum.
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Do I just jump right in?
Has anyone here ever tried to "tell" someone about their Nmom, only to have their stories poo-pooed or discounted.
Recently a friend of mine said to me "that it was just my side of the story", when I mentioned that my mom would react in a certain way. While, in essence, that is a true statement...I was blown away.
I have spent years second guessing myself in regard to my relationship with my mom, and even people who don't know her defend her. Of course this person had a lovely relationship with her parents, and so the stories are hard for her to comprehend, I guess.
G, my partner, even has a hard time understanding where I am coming from.
I did not what to call her and tell her I was getting married. I DREADED it. I knew one of two things would happen. One, she would want me to do it her way, and make it a major issue when I insisted that it would be our way. (We are getting married by a friend at the beach and having a potluck afterward....no big to-do) or twqo, she would change thesubject after a quick exclamation and then the conversation would be about her illnesses, how mean my brother or sister have been to her(or aunt and uncle..whomever) her neighbors dog...anything to divert the conversation away from what is happening with me. Even though she asks...she doesn't really care. It is just a way to access a new talking point for her.
Bah! See, I can't even write effectively about our "relationship".
Here is one of my memories as a young adult.
At the age of 14 (i am the youngest of 3) my mom decides to leave my stepdad. We lived in germany at the time, so she packs the tow of us up and drags me to AZ, where we know not a soul. She proceeds to sleep all day (pills) and works graveyards as a dispatcher. I am left to fend for myself in a place where I am completely isolated. She moved us to the furthest end of town where there is nothing for miles.
She OD's on drugs, I take care of it. I pay the bills, grcery shop, wake her for her shifts (when she isn't calling in sick) and get myself to school. The only joy I have is our 2 dogs, whom I have had since childhood. We had them flown back with us. I walked them, slept with them and fed them. They were my only companions.
I finbally started to make friends after a year or so, and one day I come home and my mom is packing our stuff. I ask where she is going. She says we are moving to the other side of town. I am switching schools again).
I was floored. Devastated. I had just started to get my bearings here.
I go to get the leashes for the dogs, Madchen and Taffy. They are not there, and neither are the dogs. My mother had taken them that day to the pound. I cired and cried...I am still crying. I know they were too old to get adopted. I asked why? Why did she do this thing? She replied coldly..."they took too much of my time". What she really meant was I spent too much of MY time loving them instead of paying attention to her. I am sure to this day that is why we moved. I was getting to be a little more free of her, and she could not have that.
I will never ever forgive her for what she did to those poor dogs, and that poor girl. It has been almost 30 years and I still cry for my poor pup's.
After a year and a half of living on the far reaches of the other side of town, just as I was making friends and adapting to my new life...my mother decides we are moving again. This time to California.
hi Starfish,
welcome....please don't think you'll be poo-poo'd on here. i think you'll find that most people on here have been through so many things just like you, it'll be uncanny...and very validating.
i had a friend who told me i'd "let" my ex-boyfriend treat me the way he did....which eventually ended our friendship (she just had that attitude, and i didn't feel she was being a friend by being that way)....unfortunately, tons of people blame the victim, especially if they've never experienced dealing with an N before.
again, please feel welcomed here.
NMMG
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starfish: Do I just jump right in?
>>>Yes, please do. I'm thrilled you joined us!
Has anyone here ever tried to "tell" someone about their Nmom, only to have their stories poo-pooed or discounted.
OH YES! The usual responses I get are "oh she couldn't have been THAT bad." or "Judge not lest ye be judged." or "you just like to label people, and that stigmafies them."
~Laura
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Welcome Starfish and I hope you have a wonderful wedding day congratulations to you both.
love
Sandra x
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I wasn't sure what the protocol for newbies would be on this forum.
Well this forum is almost 100% women so the protocol is pretty much just start talking and don't forget to take a breath once in awhile. :P
mud
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*breathes*
*breathes again*
Has anyone here ended contact 100% with a parent?
How do you deal with the guilt?
Despite the fact that I know it is best, I can't quite get there.
I think "she is so old, and alone, no one to share her life with" and I feel awful for her. But the fact is she is alone because of who she is. she drives people away through neglect and maniluation, and then points the finger of accusation at them..."see how selfish they are, they have left me in my hour of need after all I have done."
I don't like my mom, and in all brutal honesty I don't think I really love her either.
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Dear Friend.
Are you in the right place!.It reminds me of someone who just walks right in to the room and you" know" them already..
I think that a BIG reason that I went in to such an emotional 'hole" was that no one understood the pain and devastation of having an NPD mother.
I tried to reach out to friends and I felt like I was an "alien." No one seemed to understand how I felt about the biggest( and worse) thing in my life--- my N mother. I had a wound that was always with me.People were telling me to 'get over" a huge , gaping ,bloody wound in my "side". Finally, I just gave up.
The board has helped me realize that I do want connections.It is helping me heal . I realized that I was not alone. There is so much healing in that ONE realization. After that, there are people who have gone through the steps of healing and they will guide you.There is always someone who is ahead of me.
Congratulations on your upcoming marriage. I have two skin babies and two fur babies.My fur babies are so dear-- Henrietta- a Black Standard Poodle and Mimi ---a grey Yorkie with a tan underbelly and a 'white head" . I am APPALLED that your mother was so heartless to take away your best friends like that. It is AWFUL..
Keep sharing. I have no contact with my M . It helped me very much. As I got away from her presence, I could see,in my heart, how awful and damaging she was. When I had contact, she was too 'familiar" to really "see" Love to You Ami
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HI Ami,
I have been jumping around a little bit and it does seem as if there are many levels of healing and growth that I can learn from.
I am so glad to be here.
I have never told anyone about the dogs...it is just so horrible to relive, and it made her seem so awful. I did not want anyone to know she was capable of that kind of cruelty.
My boys are both Labs. Hank is yellow, 5 years old. He is about 89 pounds, and wants to be 100 pounds! I won't let him though. I got him a few months after my husband died, and in many ways if not for him I would not be where I am today. He is my special boy...he is kind of an old soul.
My other one is Dewey, he is a 2 year old (currently 85 pound)black lab that G and I adopted from the pound last year. He was 6 months old and entirely puppy. He is goofy, and clumsy and happy go lucky. He is a complete and total mama's boy, and my very special baby. G says I ruined him...(Dewey was supposed to be "his" dog!)
How old are your skin children?
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You sound so sweet, Starfish
My skin children are 19 and 21.My 19 is away at college and my 21 is working and going to college near home.
Warmly Ami
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Welcome, Starfish...
I can't forgive your mom yet either. Her cruelty to you was unspeakable.
So forgive me (this must be my Evil Twin Doris speaking), but how about getting the two most flatulent old dogs you can find, naming them appropriately, and delivering them?
I'm sorry but I do think she has some serious karma to fix. :shock:
Hopalong
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Welcome, Starfish...
I can't forgive your mom yet either. Her cruelty to you was unspeakable.
So forgive me (this must be my Evil Twin Doris speaking), but how about getting the two most flatulent old dogs you can find, naming them appropriately, and delivering them?
I'm sorry but I do think she has some serious karma to fix. :shock:
Hopalong
I could not do that to the poor old dogs!
But the sentiment is there, for sure!
Besides..it would just fly right over her head.
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Hiya starfish :) Congratulations on your upcoming wedding!
I am not 'no contact' with my dad either, but I did give it a break for about, oh, 1.5 years more or less. Which was easy because he completely ignored me during that time - the difference was that I let him. My life commenced improving immediately. Now there is occasional contact but I'm trying various strategies out on him. He is now an experimental subject. But your words resonate with me - I feel sorry for him too. Yet....
I am so sorry for your two furry friends and I know exactly how you feel. My dad had our cat put down when my sister and I went to college. It was because we 'selfishly' burdened him with pet care by going off and living in dorms where no pets were allowed. The vulnerable are deeply unsafe, that is for sure. I felt so guilty for not protecting her. I feel that was a very wrong act of his, deeply wrong in principle and practice, frighteningly wrong.
Some years later, during a course of therapy I was doing, I tried to confront him with that and a few other specific items. It was all diversion and obfuscation. It was not satisfying, nor honest. Bah.
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[he vulnerable are deeply unsafe,
Yes---- with people ,too and kids especially Love Ami
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I tried to confront him with that and a few other specific items. It was all diversion and obfuscation. It was not satisfying, nor honest. Bah.
I imagine it just provided fodder for the next round of arrows flung in your direction?
I tried the same thing with my mom a few years ago. I tried to have an honest and heartfelt conversation with her about some things that hurt me or worried me, and she sat stone faced and tight lipped. Occassionally she would deny or excuse something I would say. Then I got the silent treatment for several months (maybe longer I don't really recall). She now refers to that as the "time I was so cruel to her", and also "I don't know why you were so mean to me that day".
:roll:
In one way that day was a turning point. I started to not engage her when she ostracized me. I let her, and then I started noticing how nice my life was when she was not in it.
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Starfish,
Welcome to the board. I hope your wediing is absolutely brilliant!!
As to your Mum, she sounds awful. Just like mine, in fact.
I started No Contact 13 years ago. The guilt was bad at first, but it gradually subsides. You start to realise how ill it was making you, and how much calmer you feel. They don't have the right to make you feel like that, and control so much of your life.
As to what she did with your dogs...aarrgghhh!!
I'd better stop, now, as I have to breathe.
Janet
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Hi Starfish,
I am so sorry for everything you have gone through.
I had a similar experience with a pet – and know how painful it is. As a child, I received more love and comfort from my pets than I ever did with my family.
Best wishes on your upcoming marriage (I ended up eloping because my parents were impossible – one of the best decisions I ever made.)
I am glad that you found this place!
Peace
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Has anyone here ever tried to "tell" someone about their Nmom, only to have their stories poo-pooed or discounted.
Yes. One hundred times. I finally read a book recently and the author said that Nism can be so subtle that most poeple we complain to find a way to explain each and every act away. But it is not the single acts that are the problem it is the totality of a million single acts.
The difficultly of finding someone to understand is what gives this place life. We all come here having struggled with some N and suffering because of it and most of us have not found others who can even begin to understand.
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Hi Starfish,
I am so sorry for everything you have gone through.
I had a similar experience with a pet – and know how painful it is. As a child, I received more love and comfort from my pets than I ever did with my family.
Best wishes on your upcoming marriage (I ended up eloping because my parents were impossible – one of the best decisions I ever made.)
I am glad that you found this place!
Peace
I am glad I found this place as well.
No one from my family will be at our little ceremony. I told my family that we were getting married at the court house. I expected my om to be outraged, but I think she was relieved not to have to fly out. After all, it isn't about her. SHe did ask if she was in CA could she go to the JP with us. I held my breath, crossed my fingers, and said "well, I doubt you could get here, but of course you could". After the scene she made at my first wedding I really don't want her involved in this one.
This is going to be small. Our closest friends. The family I got to CHOSE.
Another story....not really about my mom, but in someways it is I guess.
My husband and I bought our first house on the North Coast of CAl...it is up in the redwoods about a 15 minute drive from town and the beaches. He was a firefighter, and was killed 1 month after we closed escrow. I was not working, and all of my closest friends lived 5 or more hours away.
After dealing with the immediate aftermath, and once I got back to the house I was alone. ALONE. No friends, no family, no partner. I did not do so well. I was a horrible widow. Not gracious, and I was angry. I chased many dear friends away because they could not withstand my venom, angry bitter grief. After a few months of being on my own I got Hank....a 6 week old yellow lab pup. I am not sure what drove me to get him...maybe some inner voice knew if I were to survive I needed companionship. I got the one thing I could "trust". A dog.
He was from the start very adorable (of course) but also very independent. He doesn't and never did like to sleep with me, and often would go to his crate to sleep. Still does. It is his sanctuary.
I would take him every day to the beach..if just for a little while so he could stretch his legs, and tire himself out. It was good for me too. I remember the first time I laughed out loud at one of his antics...it was so weird to hear my laugh.
One day, Hank was about 9 months old Itook him to the beach and as I was walkig to the shoreline I heard a mans voice call out asking if I got my dog in">>>". I did so I turned and spoke with him a few minutes. He was in his sixties..and nice guy, very friendly. Turns out he and his wife have Hanks littermate (they were still similar in size that they looked identical). Her name was Annie.
We exchanged #'s for a beach outing...he would have his wife call me.
Around this time I was getting ready to go back to work, and was stressed out poor Hank who was used to me being home every day.
Well, the wife calls one day and we meet at the beach. She is also in her sixties, very nice and has a british accent despite being in the states for most of her life. We walk.
We talk.
We get togheter a few more times, and then somewhere along the line they offer to have Hank over for playdates on my longer work days (he is a retired college teacher, and she is a child psychologist). I would visit in the morning at drop off, and in the evenings at pickups. Then I started having dinner with them. I meet their children (all grown and children of their own) have thanksgiving and christmas with them.
They are my family. Somehow the breeze kicked up that day at the beach and I was granted a reprieve. My life (Starfish II) started again slowly the day I picked up Hank, and he lead my to my friends...
The man at the beach will be the person who is going to marry G and I. The woman, whom I love like a mother (and I know she loves me) is making my cake. The friends who stuck by me, and did not allow me to push them away are coming up (it is an annual thing).
It is hard to put into words how profoundly they changed my life. How lucky I am to have found them. They taught me what real love is, and what an open heart is. What a real family is.
This is what I strive for in my life.
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Wow starfish. You are lucky. I am so very glad for you.
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Wow starfish. You are lucky. I am so very glad for you.
:oops:
at risk of sounding corny...I think they saved me.
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Starfish,
Thank you so much for sharing your happy ending. I came home so tired today...my happy ending is just around the corner, but it's not here quite yet...and your story was like a promise.
I feel so encouraged.
Love
CB
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Starfish,
Thank you so much for sharing your happy ending. I came home so tired today...my happy ending is just around the corner, but it's not here quite yet...and your story was like a promise.
I feel so encouraged.
Love
CB
It happens CB....but not usually in the direction we are looking I guess! I hope that you have a lovely and relaxing evening.
Hugs,
Starfish
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Starfish,
What a beautiful story.
It doesn't sound corny at all. I had a similar experience with my husband's parents. My FIL has been more of a father to me than my father ever was.
I look at my H, my Ds, and my H's family as my true family.
Peace
(am glad to hear that your true family will be at your wedding)
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Dear Starfish,
Firstly, I would like to congratulate you for postingon this site and for keeping your head up through all that you have been through in your life. Whne I read about your puppies, I was appalled. I came from an N.Family too, and they also tried to control our lives by controlling the sources of our joy and identity.
I wanted to say that your truth comes through LOUD and CLEAR. You do not have to ever worry about being 'blown off' by anyone here. We uphold your integrity, dignity and your courage for simply having come through the way you have.
Keep going forward. I don't know how you are going to establish proper boundaries with you N.mother, but I can only encourage you to do that. The details and manner in which you do that, of course, only you would know best.
I simply encourage you not to compromise your viewpoint, no matter what affectuion is offered in return. 'Love' that demands that you give up the truth of your life is not LOVE at all. It is selfsih, self-seeking and ugly. You deserve love that will acknoledge your truth and applaud you for being who you are.
I'll just close by saying how good it is that you are here and that you are who you are, just the way you are today.
XOXO :)
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Dear Beautiful Bride-To-Be Starfish-
Congratulations on your upcoming wedding- it sounds so lovely and exciting. I know there will be real love and joy all around you!
I was a feral child, my NM took off when I was almost 4, and my ND was gone all but a very few hours a day working 2 jobs as well as participating in the Masons, Shriners, etc. In truth I was raised by my dogs, and I think that they did a pretty good job. I have to give my N Father credit- he cooked a special breakfast for any puppies that we had (not for me, though) and our dogs were extremely healthy and well behaved, almost psychic. I was home alone at night many times, but had 2 large dogs with me constantly, so I wasn't often afraid. I came home to a place with no adults there (sometimes my brother would be there), but my doggies would be there, I couldn't wait to get home to be with them and I never even thought of getting into trouble (those dogs saw everything). One of my dogs was murdered by an intruder and I have never gotten over it, NEVER. But my doggies were never thrown away, they were cherished members of the family- they were my family. I am simply crushed by the story of your lost doggies, and the unfathomable and unspeakable cruelty shown both to them and to you. You are a strong person to have overcome that trauma, and you deserve the happiness that you have now.
Have fun planning the nuptials- by the way, what sort of dress, flowers, hairstyle, etc., are you having (I want to picture it all!)
Hugs,
Changing
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While not as bad a some, she is classic N. But don't try to tell her that! :lol:
For the most part I don't have contact with her, we go for months on end without talking (thank god she lives on the east coast and I on the west) but when we do...either she is making jabs at me, or talking about herself.
I start to wonder if she ever really listens to what I am saying, because as soon as I say something she is off and running about herself and then the conversation is derailed. I actually prefer it to her "pointed silences,, and comments about my life.
Dear Starfish,
Behind on my reading here, but just wanted to say "Welcome 8)" and also wish you and your intended a blessed wedding & many years of joy together! :)
Your first brief description of your mom here fits my mother, as well. I hope that she has no opportunity to interfere in your upcoming wedding or anything else in the future! You deserve to have your time to stretch and grow and just enjoy this new life you're entering.
I'll catch up on my reading and look forward to hearing more from you!
Best wishes,
Hope
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Starfish,
I am so glad those two pups brought you and your new family together.
There's something...reuniony about your story. It's beautiful.
Much, much joy to you on your peaceful heartfelt wedding day!
Hopalong