Voicelessness and Emotional Survival Message Board
Voicelessness and Emotional Survival => Voicelessness and Emotional Survival Message Board => Topic started by: reallyME on August 26, 2007, 07:23:43 AM
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For any of you who had N's that you were physically involved with, did they expect you to behave lik a porno queen.
In my case, NH will tell me "all the books say you are supposed to LIKE this!" "This is supposed to drive you wild."
When he talks to me and says this stuff, I feel like he's talking to an object saying, "what's WRONG WITH YOU? When I push this button, you are SUPPOSED to wiggle, and when I ring this bell, you are supposed to jiggle. I don't get it!"
Because of this, I'm not too shy to tell you, that our love life is pretty much NIL at this point. He has objectified me right down to my physical body, and he just doesn't GET why I don't want him near me anymore!
Last night, we were supposed to go out to eat to celebrate our birthdays and anniversary all in one. This was HIS idea. Because our daughters had a baseball game and needed the car, however, we opted instead to buy movies and pizza and stay home, just the two of us.
It ended up that I tried to explain to him that the people in porno, A.) are not CHRISTIAN B.) are ACTING C.) are not ME...by the time the night was over, I was sleeping downstairs with my daughter, and NH was mumbling "you ruined another night!" When my 13 year old asked him about how our night went, he said "ASK YER MOTHER!"
Honestly, this man is repulsive to me at this point. I'm biding my time and seeing how this new job works out, since, for a while, I have to rely on NH to get me there. If things do not VASTLY improve, I will most likely be making my way ELSEWHERE so that I can find some PEACE and not have to feel guilty about "NOT LIKING TO BE TOUCHED THE WAY THE "BOOKS" and "EVERYTHING I READ," and "ALL THE EXPERTS SAY," "I've NEVER heard of ANYONE NOT LIKING THIS. YOU ARE THE ONLY ONE!"
I'm just glad I'm as strong as I am to STAND MY GROUND! his messed up, orphanage-abused, narcissistic, child-molesting father RUINED HIM!
sighs,
~Laura
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Laura,
My ex-husband was NPD to the Nth degree. He didn't make love... he masturbated himself using my body as a tool.
Your husband sounds like he's very interested in the mechanics of sex. I don't know how you can possibly get him to understand what it is that you actually DO like, without showing him. If you're interested, I think you'll have to take his hand and also give him very specific directions... and probably also tell him to do you a favor and just don't talk through the whole lesson.
((((((Laura))))))) he's clueless, I know. Of course, it's up to you whether you want to give him instruction in how to please you in bed.
One thing I know for sure is that God designed sex to be pleasurable for both wife and husband, and not just a mechanical exercise or a method of fulfilling one partner's porno fantasies.
I get the feeling that your husband doesn't view you as a tool... and that's a good sign... but he does seem to think of your body as a machine. If you can show (not tell) him specifically what you do enjoy, maybe he can learn. If you want to.
Hope
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Laura,
I think that anything two people do together that they WANT to do together is fine. However, your husband does not seem to see you as part of a couple - he appears to be seeing you as the one person he can have sex with. One actress made me laugh when she wrote about how a man can "get some." She said if he went in the bathroom and took a shower and came out and siad, "Honey, I love the new mat you got in the bathroom," that would be it for her. The point is, a man needs to learn to appreciate what a woman cares - or the partner cares about. It seems your husband doesn't see that you value your relationship as a husband and wife in the eyes of God - that you should be a united front and have interests together and respect for one another.
(((((((((((((((Laura))))))))))))))))))))))
I am sorry you have such a tough situation.
Love, Beth
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Laura,
This is a very tough issue to overcome when you have such differing views. Where it stands right now for you I would suggest marital counseling - I think you may need an authority figure to guide your H to a gentler and inclusive view of sex with you. (Include your mind along with your body) You said in another post your H responds to authority figures.
I've had many discussions about sex with my H but not the mechanics of it or what we're going to do but with us it's more that he exudes this attitude that since he works so hard and provides so well that the least I can do is make sure he gets sexual pleasure on a very regular basis. I hate that attitude - it's just so antiquated and it makes me feel objectified.
I think it is the dream/fantasy of every guy (guys?) to have a lover like a porn queen. Perhaps you can say to your H - I'll fulfill your fantasy once a week if you fulfill mine once a week? What is your fantasy? That could be fun.
Love,
Dandylife
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since he works so hard and provides so well that the least I can do is make sure he gets sexual pleasure on a very regular basis
RM, oy. I think he's been brainwashed for so long to objectify sex that he doesn't see that it's about intimacy. Well, it's about pleasure too, but I love what Beth said about the shower mat...it's about feeling appreciated and desired as an individual PERSON, not just as a handy gender-machine.
God, I hate pornography. I hate the industry, I hate the fact that so few people bother to connect the degradation of the people they're watching with their support of that industry by watching it. As if it weren't general knowledge that most of the actors, female and male, come from horrible backgrounds that almost invariably featured childhood sexual abuse. And what are they doing? They are reenacting their childhood exploitation by becoming porn stars! So am I going to RE-exploit them by watching them, feeding money into the industry that uses them like meat?
I watched some porn. I know it is titillating. But I have a daughter. Hell, I'd feel the same way if I had a son.
I think it's the apex of cultural degradation. It's not being puritanical...sex is FABULOUS! Just for god's sake, if you want to watch other people that badly go join a swinger's club. At least there, you'd have to be with other human beings and not hiding behind a screen like a peep-show voyeur. Seems gross to me (as well as disease-y), but theoretically at least, it sounds more honest.
Oh blecchh. I think this culture is seriously screwed up about sex. I don't mean to sound like a prude but I think we've (cultural collective "we") overexposed sex so much that we've just about drained it of mystery and delight.
I also believe any two people who are committed to viewing their sexual relationship as one of mystery and delight can turn their backs on all that crap and recreate something wonderful. But it is an overwhelming tide.
All that said, I've been celibate for over 2 years now and though I am used to it, I don't want to be. It's a joy, with the right person, and it's time I got brave enough to date again. Because even if I DO date, it'll be many months still...
sorry, digressing...
Hops
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Hops,
you said that watching porn is "tintillating"...well, honestly, I don't get turned on by it anymore. First, it's disgusting to me to actually SEE sex happening. Secondly, I believe the meds I used to take, have dulled my sensitivity in that area.
I did come up with a sort of solution though. I told my husband today that maybe, since he seems to think that "the book says that you should LIKE this" maybe I need to literally bring the book to bed and TELL him "yes, that feels good, no that doesn't" Maybe I need to "teach" him how to treat me.
:)
~Laura
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Hi Laura,
I think that's a brilliant idea.
I think you've happened on a huge insight...your husband has a LITERAL mind.
So if you literally explain to him in a literal way what works for you, that may open a new door to mutual pleasure.
And that would be lovely.
Sending love,
Hops
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My contribution to this is that we rented a movie after a bit when we first met. It seemed too natural for him, to be an occasional thing.
FFwd to unpacking out here and I see 10 video cassettes and 4 CDs of porn that he quickly stashed away in the closet of the room my chair couldn't go into, and that room was to be his office. He was always staying up late and I knew why. There's plenty of porn online and I doubted he even remembered what he owned.
As time went on I bought a new wheelchir and it was narrower. I went into his office and removed the videos and CDs and stashed them. He never asked about them at all. (When I left him 4 years later, I had them with me and then put them, ruined, into my garbage out back.
But when I was still there, I saw he had print and file sharing turned on my computer. I kept turning it off, but then it would be on again. He was checking out my computer, but one day he was out so I checked out his. I found a file of 10GB of porn flicks. I was so disgusted to see that on my computer that I closed the file and hit Delete for the Folder-----------oopsy on him!
Only about a week later he asked me about a missing folder that he needed and I said I didn't know........ he was downstairs (now) and I was upstairs--maybe it was one of his customers. He never mentioned it again.
If a man showers and a woman bathes, every day, using the same kind of soap, would the man run out of 6 bars when the woman has 4 left? The shower was in the laundry room and I can only bathe, bathroom.
Laura
My ex-husband was NPD to the Nth degree. He didn't make love... he masturbated himself using my body as a tool.
Oh I understand that statement completely
The topic of Ns and sex always arises and all Ns appear to be dysfunctional in that area for some reason.
Also the subject of kissing arises and here it was like a fat worm bouncing back and forth in my mouth, but mainly was as though he was kissing his grandmother (on the cheek) but on the lips and not romantic at all.
Eeeeekyuck--shiver---ewwww---mmph---puhhhhhhhhhhh-shiver---
Izzy
In case you didn't know, you can click on an attached picture, as below, and enlarge it
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ReallyMe-
My NH had a secret porno life. I never saw the stuff, the idea never appealed to me. NH did not work for almost 3 years, and acted as if he needed me to do everyhing for him (I have a physical disability). He became increasingly hostile, and would threaten to kill me, knock me to the floor right after I had surgery, make demands for me to do house repairs, etc that I am now physically able to do only in stages. When I was cleaning, I found a DVD player and at least 50 porno CDs, I didn't look closely, they seemed pitiable and disgusting- this must have cost us a lot of money, especially since he was receiving a limited early retirement benefit. I threw the Sony DVD player on the floor repeatedly until I heard a satisfying cracking noise. Then I noticed the cable bill had been paid from our account- it was about $500.00 per month for porno. NH never took me out in the last 3 years, not even for a walk, never helped, etc., but it seems that he had plenty of time and ability to buy porno, watch porno, hide porno, etc. and play softball 5 times a week at least. He too said that all marriages were like that, that he didn't care about me and that was normal, that he used to think that he was obsessed with me because of great sex, but that couldn't be, etc- when we split, he actually tried to insult me by saying that he had sex with his first ex-wife when he left her, to have something good to remember her by, but he had no desire to do that with me (Oh Brother, WHAT AN IDIOT)!!! Instead of being hurt ( he actually thought that he was insulting me), I laughed at him and his twisted thinking, and let him know in no uncertain terms that if he wanted to leave me alone, that was wonderful!!! EWWW!!!ECCHHH!!!( How had he become so detached from reality?)
NH was molested as a child ,repeatedly he said, by various neighbor men ( no father and his mother was an alcoholic who played Bingo every night, had a granny there to care for him but she didn't go outside), had an adult cousin in their apartment who pretended to sleep while he touched her, and his M walked around naked or mostly exposed constantly ( the vile old thing wore a see through baby doll once when she visited us, even though I had given her an expensive gown, slippers, and robe, really gorgeous- I freaked, my NH told her to put some clothes on, and then told me how she had acted when he was a child, and that he hadn't noticed that she was showing her nether regions until I freaked... he was used to it (I think I'm going to vomit). She also liked going to topless shows, transvestite shows, nude beaches, etc. with her adult son or her friends, and never had him call her Mother, but her first name (even now). When he was a teenager, he would have girls over at their railroad style apartment and the mom and maybe granny would get a gander. Also mom would have men over when he was a child and , oh it's too disgusting. I wish I had known this before we married- there would have been no wedding. NH mom also said I was "no fun" because I didn't gamble, drink, etc- there was never any question about my going to sex shows or nude beaches, she didn't even dare suggest it, etc, but she did expect to sleep in our room on a cot once (Oh Lordy)- unbelievable! I set her straight immediately ( didn't know about the childhood stuff or the old molester woman would have never stepped foot in my house!)
NH's father had hired a hooker for his NH first sexual experience ( he and M had split up prior to NH birth and this was the second time he had seen him), and hid, watching everything, then laughed at his son. I wish that I had known this as well- there would have been no marriage!
The porno is sad, all molesting and exploiting EVIL, SICK & SAD SAD SAD- I have no problem saying so. This board is the first place that I have been able to discuss this porno stuff and my NH- I was really embarrassed and ashamed. I don't think it gets better, I am so happy to be free of NH and his baggage...Now I know that this is something I need to check out prior to getting involved, etc- it's like drug addiction !
Hope things improve for you- you deserve better!
Changing
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Dear Changing,
I am glad that you could unburden your heart a little by sharing those awful memories.People get so lost(like your exH and MIL). WOW.I am so sorry that you had to be part of that awful ,demeaning situation.
I am not condoning your H's behavior at all, but what an awful background he had.
Sometimes the ONLY thing that keeps me going in this pitiful life is knowing that there were be another "life" where all this pain will be so far removed that we will not remember even a smidgen of it.
Love to you, Dear Changing, Ami
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Dear Laura
Authentic's letter is what I did with my H. I will NOT condone abuse BUT I do not 'try" to get him to "understand" my needs. I don't think that he can.
Somehow, I have seen that I am not the "biggest prize" in the world ,either. I used to see him as the 'bad" one and me as the "good "one. I see that I was very damaged by my N mother. I ,OVERLY. wanted someone to take care of me( mother me) . That got "old" for him. My main desire in life was to be mothered. I was not a full partner, either.
When I had kids, I really tried to be a good mother. He was very wrong, at that time, b/c I was pulling my side of the relationship. However, I can see where I was not the "best deal "in town , either. It helps me to have more compassion for him.
When I heal, it will become clear what, if anything, to do about the marriage Love Ami
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Bravo, Authentic!
Excellent, excellent letter. Thank you for sharing it. It really is the bottom line--in all the things we write about what we say to our N-bf's, sisters, mothers, children, husbands, etc., the bottom line is that their behavior is telling us something about who they are. The real question is not how to make them change, but how we want to change in response to it. This letter is incredible.
Thank you for sharing it.
CB
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Ami and Authentic-
Thank you for your thoughtful replies. There is certainly great truth in what both of you expressed. My NH was unravelling- a brilliant, intelligent, educated, funny, attractive man, becoming ever more secretive , mean, and scary, adamantly blaming me for everything, even things he did many years prior to our meeting! He lost his excellent job (though I had helped him prepare for the company "transition" and he won one of the few coveted spots after reorganization, he had to commute, etc, and couldn't /wouldn't do what it took to keep up with the faster pace.) I tried to economize, helped him with sick time,disability, lawsuit, an enormous amount of medical and psych treatment, etc., and he got worse and worse...In the end he really loved his porno and the thought of money, etc. and he hated me-I only got in the way. I wish that I had known about the porno, his mother, etc, I would never had married NH. You are right that one cannot expect someone else to change- when I realized what NH was about, I felt obligated to try to help him because of the abuse in his past that was revealed, but when he let me know that he wanted to continue in his self-destructive conduct, and he wanted me to continue in his distorted idea of a marriage, trying to use fear and force, I wanted OUT- I wish that he had been honest with me, and that I had been more insightful.
The Robin Norwood information seemed correct regarding the need for acceptance- however, when a man lies about himself, his addiction to drugs, need for porno, obsession for other women, lack of attraction to women and true attraction to other men, etc., all of the things listed by Norwood, seem to be almost always hidden. Very few men who desire men are honest when they marry women, and the same goes for the other behaviors. When a man represents himself in one way, and is actually another, there is naturally an effort by the spouse to "fix" things ( in those areas that seem possible). I will certainly be on the lookout for more hidden behaviors next time. No more Ns for me!
I still feel guilty and confused at times, NH seems so lost and damaged by his childhood. But he is doing what he wants to do, and has no concern about destroying me, and even though he is gone still tries to bully me to pay for things, and not reveal what is really going on so his lawsuit is not compromised, etc. I am happy that he revealed himself, I can "bless and release" him, and I love my freedom and the happy peace that I enjoy.
Hugs to you,
Changing
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Laura, I remembered this letter and thought it fit your situation perfectly. Other than the name change the author could have been speaking directly to you.
Dear Mikki,
Okay, we won't analyze everything, but some of what you've written warrants our attention.
First, let's look at what is going on between you and your boyfriend.
Your letter poses a way of dealing with a partner's unacceptable behavior that is very common but . . .
in my opinion, not very productive.
You state that your boyfriend, in trying to "settle some issues" behaved in a way that shocked and hurt you.
You said you finally dealt with that by setting some limits regarding what you feel would be acceptable behavior for him.
In other words, you told him what you would and would not put up with and now you expect him to tailor his behavior accordingly.
If his behavior shocked you, it is because it violate your value system. . .
you are both adults, each with your own value
systems well developed and operating in your lives.
What your boyfriend did violated YOUR value system but not HIS. Otherwise YOU wouldn't be putting limits on what HE is allowed to do.
He would be setting limits in light of his own values.
This is not nit-picking on my part, Mikki.
You need to recognize that this man is telling you something important about who he is
and how he approaches life.
It is both naive and presumptuous for you to think that you belong up at the blackboard
instructing him that if he wants a relationships with you
he should do A and not do B.
He is being himself
and he will inevitably continue to be himself.
Your job is to decide if you can comfortably accept who he is
and the way he approaches the problem of living.
We are happiest being with the people we can accept exactly as they are.
When we expect them to change for our sake, we are not respecting them nor are we taking care of ourselves.
Chances are high that he will shock and hurt you again through his behavior,
except that you will have less right to be shocked or even surprised
because you already know that the capactiy for this behavior exists in him.
I've worked with women who expected their partners to:
stop seeing other women,
or being sexually attracted to men,
or using drugs,
or drinking,
or gambling,
or using pornography
or hitting them
or criticizing them
or avoiding them through work . . .
on and on.
These men were not able to stop in order to please these women, not over time.
They might change their behavior for a while in order to keep peace
but they were not able to do so permanently.
People are not really able to permanently change for the sake of another person.
They can put the brakes on for a while or
they can allow that other person to put the brakes on them for a while
but all of this is temporary.
THE BEHAVIOR will eventually resume
because the person who makes changes in order to please or placate someone is
unchanged underneath.
I hope you can say to yourself:
THIS MAN IS CAPABLE OF DOING THIS THING WHICH SHOCKS ME.
CAN I FACE THE FACT AND LIVE COMFORTABLY WITH IT?
Because although I have a right to tell him how his behavior makes me feel,
I have no right to expect or demand that he change for my sake.
In fact, even to tell him more than once how I feel about his behavior
becomes an implicit demand that he change.
My job, after communicating my feelings once, is to decide how I will handle my feelings concerning what he does.
I may tell him of my decision but again, only to inform him,
not to bring pressure on him to change.
Otherwise, I will probably end up making threats I'm not prepared to carry out.
All of this is not easy to do, Mikki,
but it is a way of handling your situation that can possibly save you many years of anger, pain and recrimination.
The factor that would keep you from viewing your situation with him in this way is SELF-WILL." ~
Excerpted from Letter from Woman Who Love Too Much by Robin Norwood, pgs 196-198. http://www.amazon.com/Women-Who-Love-Too-Much/dp/0671733419 (http://www.amazon.com/Women-Who-Love-Too-Much/dp/0671733419)
I do not entirely agree with Robin Norwoods advice (I once owned that book and accepted his word as gospel, lol) There is a certain logic to his advice, but it also seems to be suggesting that we shouldn't set any boundaries in our relationships other than to timidly state our feelings , because we have no hope of changing a man's behavior (or that he will just go back to the old behavior eventually)
I agree that we cannot easily change a man's `essense' or his most important`values' , but behavior is something that people modify all the time in order to adapt to living (and working) with people. I see it as a natural and important part of all close relationships.
I think if something is very important to a woman in a relationship, such protecting herself and her children from the effects of porn, she has every right to ask that her husband to stop that behaviour * because it effects her life in a fundermental way , not just his*. The same goes with cheating (the other example Mr Norwood used). I feel that this is another example where the mans behavior adversely affects other people (it could kill them if they caught Aids!) , and they have a right to ask him to modify his behaviour.
I think what Mr Norwood has uncovered in his book is a lot of really stupid and outlandish ways to coerce another person into modifying their behaviour, such as having tantrums, bullying, emotional manipulation, and ultimatums. Quite correctly, he has docmented that most the time, these techniques are unseccessful.
But to suggest that women do not have any right to want their man adapt as much as she adapts in a relationship, is wrong IMO. Its just a matter of `how' we choose to go about this.
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Authentic, I do `sort of' agree, and you brought up some points i totally agree with, such as the problems with dealing with addicts, who have a real problem with behaviour modification.
Addiction is another matter. And I totally agree that its very difficult for any addict to change their behaviour even when they want to, let alone when someone else wants them to. That expectation is unrealistic (although if you follow forums dealing with addictions closely, you will notice that some couples do beat problems with certain addictions together. Its just not very easy).
Where I disagree is that I don't think that `leaving the relationship' is the *only* way to get any of your needs met in a relationship, when they are things about your partner's behaviour that affect your wellbeing. I do think that people have a right to ask someone to change their behavior if it is affecting them (and they ahvea right to say `no') The concept of `like it or leave it' is a little simplistic to me, and ignores other important options, such as negotiation and mutually workable compromises.
Thanks for discussing this with me authentic; I am enjoying hearing your thoughts and talking about this with you.
X Bella
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There are many points that have been made that I agree with, however-
1. One can be exposed to diseases or damaged by a spouse without prior knowledge of the infidelity or other behaviors.
2. Behaviors are not neccessarily "who we are"- thank goodness, or I would have no chance to change, make better choices, etc. in the future. It is true that change is quite difficult, but sometimes changes are more easily accomplished when one has support from others (of course, one must want to change). If a behavior threatens one's marriage, this can be a powerful motivating factor if the marriage is valued. We are all tempted to do things that might compromise something we value, and so we stop short of acting out.
3. If a hidden problem comes up in a marriage ( I agree with Norwood that it might be nonproductive to put the same effort into a "boyfriend"- by the way, why is anyone over the age of 17 called a "boyfriend" anyway- we should come up with something better! At any rate, trying to change a boyfriend in order to make him into suitable marriage material does seem to be a waste of time) and one spouse (husband or wife) indicates that they want to change (stop gambling away the house money, comparing their spouse to porno actors,etc) after they are "called" on their behavior, they can be accountable to the other spouse, in order to reinforce changed behavior. In my NH's case, he hid his behavior, and when he was called on it he obviously did not want to change, did not value our marriage, and instead tried to use coercion to keep me in my place- but I still don't see his behavior as what he is, rather it is a choice at this point. One can be overweight, addicted to unhealthy foods, and refuse to stop- or one can modify their behavior alone or with the help of a spouse, and avoid a heart attack- but the food is not "them".
4. Of course, some pathological behaviors cannot reasonably be expected to be modified, but we are discussing more common areas of concern.
5. Some people develop new behaviors after marriage, ie taking up drinking, overeating, etc.
NH valued his behavior above all else, but not all husbands and wives do. Some quit drinking, drugging, etc. and are happy that they are no longer in bondage, although the temptation remains . I certainly want to change my life and choices, and if I remarry and I am doing something destructive, I would want a chance to improve things.
When the porno thing becomes more real and more important than the actual spouse, the spouse needs to communicate the hurt and the danger- Norwood talks about ultimatums that one might not go through with, which may be true for "boyfriends" but in terms of a marriage, some behaviors are destructive and they will tear a marriage apart, whether or not any ultimatums are issued, or whether an actual divorce takes place or the spouse just looks the other way and gives up on the marriage in that manner.
I sincerely hope that things get better for ReallyMe, and her husband listens to her with an open heart, which is what I asked my H to do. She deserves to feel loved and valued and happy in her home (we all do).
Changing
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I did come up with a sort of solution though. I told my husband today that maybe, since he seems to think that "the book says that you should LIKE this" maybe I need to literally bring the book to bed and TELL him "yes, that feels good, no that doesn't" Maybe I need to "teach" him how to treat me.
:)
~Laura
Laura,
Great plan! I figure a guy with a book is at least trying to learn.... ahem. Well, yanno. I think you'll make a great teacher! :D
Wishing you well!
Hope
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As I was reading your replies, an Al Anon phrase popped in to my mind. You have to try not to "control the outcome".
It is so funny ,but I was in Al Anon for 10 years, I think , and I NEVER got it in the heart. I never understood what they were saying about co-dependency(in the heart). Now, that I am truly healing, I understand all the jokes and sayings that I could not understand at the time.
For example there is a joke that if the co- dependent dies-- someone else's life flashes before them. I thought that this was the 'most stupid" joke. The reason was that I did not get it-- lol.
Anyway, Al- Anon would say for Laura( or any of us) to explain her position, her feelings, get a book to show him etc -- BUT detach from the outcome. IOW, she can't make him "get it". She can bring him to water but not make him drink--- so to speak.
For the moment, I gave up on my H b/c he simply did not get it. He did not get that I have to be treated with kindness, love and respect for me to be attracted to him. It is non negotiable.If he does not-- I can't be attracted to him and I am not going to "fake it" b/c I am worth more than that
Anyway, I wanted to add the "wisdom" from Al Anon to the discussion Love Ami
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Hi Changing,
How about...manfriend?
Maybe if I snare me a geezer I'll try that out.
:lol:
Hops
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Been really busy so did not have time to read all of the posts but want to add my experience.
When XN and I started to sleep together in the beginning I had a real sense of there being no one there........ cannot describe the feeling other than that. For a while the sex was okish in that it takes time for people to get to know each others needs etc. It dawned on me after a short while that it was always about him. I gave him books to read, tried to talk about it but he then insisted that he had no need for sex and also I had so destroyed his confidence by my DEMANDS, like maybe I'd like a little contact other than intercourse. His Xwife never made any demands sexually ................ one of those monents where I was stunned into silence.
He often "worked" late on the computer........ silly old me, it was only last year that I realised that he had an addiction to porn. His excuse, it was some evil spirit driving him to view the porn. One evening I was cooking dinner and went into the bedroom to ask him a question to find him viewing young women mastrubating themselves. I tried to stay calm and talk to him about it. He said he thought it was ok, they were older than his daughter and he liked the fact that they were on tv and he had no connection with them. I just blew a fuse.
It is all about objectification.... porn being N supply, its the same thing. I still feel dirty when I think of him. I recall being in bed with him one time when he made advances and I told him I did not want to have sex, he just did it anyway and said, Guess I should not have done that when you said no.... Oh God, it still makes me sick.
Axa
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Axa,
Your post has made me reply ...up to now I've been reading this thread, but holding back from adding to it.
What I keep reading beneath the surface, over and over again, is that so many women here are saying 'well, the sex was unemotional, but I want to keep my marriage going, I don't like him using porn, buy hey! what can you do? It makes him treat me 'badly', and I don't like it, but....'
THESE MEN ARE RAPING YOU.
Every time you 'put up with' sex that you find uncomfortable emotionally, or physically, or demeaning, or unpleasant in any way...it's rape. It's without your consent. Being married to the rapist doesn't mean you have given your consent.
Rape does not just happen to women who get dragged off down an alley in the dark. Most rapes happen to women who live with (or used to live with) their 'attacker'.
To put up with it more than once, just gives them the green light to go on doing it. And they're not going to stop, because they like doing it. It's a violent act, not a sexual one.
I should know, I lived with someone who did it for six years. He was 'only' my boyfirend- (Changing - I have to disagree with you on this one - when you're engaged to someone and living in a house that you're buying together, and at least one of you wants it to be permanent, it's as difficult to walk away as if you're married) - but he got more and more addicted to pornography, spending our money on it instead of the mortgage, just like the rest of you are saying happens in your relationships.
After I split up with him, and met my husband, I thought I could put all that behind me, but the legacy of it haunted our marriage until after six years I started having counselling.
At a Rape Crisis Centre, once a week for a year.
It was only then that I realised what I had actually gone through, and how much work it took to get over it.
Anyone here who thinks they 'should' stay in a marriage for the sake of the children, I'd say this to them: how would you feel explaining to your kids when they're older, that you put up with being raped so that they didn't have to move house or change schools? Do you think they might feel just a touch guilty, for 'making you' reach that decision on their behalf? I'm certainly not saying it's an easy decision - it took me three years just to start trying to do something about it. And when your self-esteem is on the floor, it's so hard to believe you CAN do anything.
I just think this discussion about partners using porn, and how they might be 're-trained' using books, etc., is just missing the point. If you're being raped, get out.
Janet, feeling bloody annoyed.
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OH-OH
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Authentic,
Thanks for your response. I can see the thing about changing yourself because you can't change the other person - I understand that.
Perhaps I didn't make it clear about why I'm so annoyed.
For one thing, I am NOT annoyed with the women posting here. You're in a dreadful situation. I can appreciate that. BUT.....
I'm annoyed with these awful men who objectify women to the point that they can make them feel like shit for years - even after the women have got away (and I know not all men are like this, too).
I'm annoyed with the media for perpetuating the stupid notion that only tarty women who dress up and stand on street corners get raped, and if they do, well, they probably deserved it (they didn't, actually).
I'm annoyed with the police, who like to think that 'domestics' are inconsequential, and don't need to be taken seriously.
I'm annoyed with the Criminal Justice System as a whole, for making laws that suit men, and dismiss women, or make them just 'possessions' of men, so in court, women can't get a fair hearing.
I'm annoyed with the ridiculously lenient sentences that men DO get when convicted of rape (around two years, before 'good behaviour' is taken into account), that are only applied to 6% of men who get taken to court at all.
I'm annoyed with the court system (in the UK) that means IT IS THE LAW that, just before a jury goes out to consider its verdict in a rape case, the judge HAS TO 'advise' the jury that 'women in cases such as this have been known to lie' - giving an uneducated jury the mistaken belief that IN THIS PARTICULAR CASE, perhaps the woman IS a liar, therefore making their decision likely to be biased.
I'm annoyed with the parents of the women on this forum, who brought them up to have such poor self-esteem, that they were unable to recognise a dysfunctional person when they saw them.
I'm annoyed with the Governments' social services system, that knows damn well that there is only one place in a women's refuge for every TEN THOUSAND women who need a place (in the UK) - that's not per ten thousand women as a whole, that's ten thousand women who need to get away from an abusive man.
I'm annoyed with the employment system, because women can't earn a living wage as easily as men, so they often end up having to live with a violent man, as they can't manage on their own.
I'm annoyed with women who pretend it's not happening, and don't support other women when they speak out.
That's why I'm annoyed.
Janet
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Oh Janet.
Say it, sister!
Heartfelt understanding on this ...
love and awe
Hops
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Authentic and Hops,
Thank you...I'm starting to calm down a bit, now.
Janet
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He often "worked" late on the computer........ silly old me, it was only last year that I realised that he had an addiction to porn. His excuse, it was some evil spirit driving him to view the porn.
sorry I forgot who posted this one...but I want to say something. His excuse about the "evil spirit driving" him...if he's going to try and use THAT argument, and if you ever have the topic come up again with him, just let him know that the Bible, which speaks of temptation by evil spirits, clearly states that "a man sins, when he is tempted, drawn away by HIS OWN LUSTS. Let's not give the devil the credit for our stupid, selfish choices, dude!
Jan,
I just wanted to say that it wasn't my mother who brought me up to go to dysfunctional men, per se, although she did stay with my step dad for years and he was OCD, OCPD and Paranoid-schiz. I ended up with my H because I was trying to escape a control situation.
~Laura
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There are many points that have been made that I agree with, however-
1. One can be exposed to diseases or damaged by a spouse without prior knowledge of the infidelity or other behaviors.
2. Behaviors are not neccessarily "who we are"- thank goodness, or I would have no chance to change, make better choices, etc. in the future. It is true that change is quite difficult, but sometimes changes are more easily accomplished when one has support from others (of course, one must want to change). If a behavior threatens one's marriage, this can be a powerful motivating factor if the marriage is valued. We are all tempted to do things that might compromise something we value, and so we stop short of acting out.
3. If a hidden problem comes up in a marriage ( I agree with Norwood that it might be nonproductive to put the same effort into a "boyfriend"- by the way, why is anyone over the age of 17 called a "boyfriend" anyway- we should come up with something better! At any rate, trying to change a boyfriend in order to make him into suitable marriage material does seem to be a waste of time) and one spouse (husband or wife) indicates that they want to change (stop gambling away the house money, comparing their spouse to porno actors,etc) after they are "called" on their behavior, they can be accountable to the other spouse, in order to reinforce changed behavior. In my NH's case, he hid his behavior, and when he was called on it he obviously did not want to change, did not value our marriage, and instead tried to use coercion to keep me in my place- but I still don't see his behavior as what he is, rather it is a choice at this point. One can be overweight, addicted to unhealthy foods, and refuse to stop- or one can modify their behavior alone or with the help of a spouse, and avoid a heart attack- but the food is not "them".
4. Of course, some pathological behaviors cannot reasonably be expected to be modified, but we are discussing more common areas of concern.
5. Some people develop new behaviors after marriage, ie taking up drinking, overeating, etc.
NH valued his behavior above all else, but not all husbands and wives do. Some quit drinking, drugging, etc. and are happy that they are no longer in bondage, although the temptation remains . I certainly want to change my life and choices, and if I remarry and I am doing something destructive, I would want a chance to improve things.
When the porno thing becomes more real and more important than the actual spouse, the spouse needs to communicate the hurt and the danger- Norwood talks about ultimatums that one might not go through with, which may be true for "boyfriends" but in terms of a marriage, some behaviors are destructive and they will tear a marriage apart, whether or not any ultimatums are issued, or whether an actual divorce takes place or the spouse just looks the other way and gives up on the marriage in that manner.
I sincerely hope that things get better for ReallyMe, and her husband listens to her with an open heart, which is what I asked my H to do. She deserves to feel loved and valued and happy in her home (we all do).
Changing
Changing, That summaries so well what I've learned from my relationships. Thank you for your beautifully articulated post.
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Bella, I am enjoy this discussion also, but please know I don't necesarily disagree with you.
I think what Ms. Norwood is saying, and I agree with her, is that when someone tells you over and over again that they like something and don't want to change,
Wouldn't you agree with that?
Authentic, I totally agree with this, yes. I actually think we're totally on the same page, lol:) My disagreement is with the author, not you.
I didn't interpret the author's overall message as `nagging doesn't work' and I didn't think this was her point at all. She was taking it one step further, and saying that we have no right to try to change a partner's behavior, even when it is destroying the relationship or harming us. She was making the point ``We have no right'' to do this.
I think her intention was to uncover a lot of ineffective tactics that some women use to try to change their relationships. Her conclusion was that ```women should not try to change their relationships''. In my mind that conclusion is faulty. Like a lot of self help book authors, this was probably her opinion to start off with, and she went looking for evidence to support her opinion whilst ignoring the rest.
What I think would have been a lot more constructive, would have been to ALSO investigate and document relationships which were able to recover from great challenges, rather than conclude that that it is impossible.
X Bella
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As I was reading your replies, an Al Anon phrase popped in to my mind. You have to try not to "control the outcome".
I Love Ami
Dear Ami, This is the one part of the 12 step program that I do not relate to at all. I think Co-D's have spent their lives being powerless, and I've always thought that it was bad advice to tell a Co-D to embrace yet more powerlessness. It doesn't sit well with me.
I feel that what Co-D's need most of all is to experience empowerment by learning `how' to get their needs met, using tools such faith, conscious decision making, communication, negotiation, and assertiveness. Most Co-D's have learned to manipulate others subtly to get what they need, or they have learned destructive habits they needed in their childhood to survive abuse.
Faith is an important part of this process, but not the entire process. Faith is what we need to move forward *on the right path*, without knowing the outcome. Faith is what we need to let go when the result is not what we hoped for. I am thinking of the serenity prayer as I right this. We need to sometimes take action and sometimes let go, and wisdom to know the difference.
Its weird, i have absolutely no feeling either way about God. No sense that he exists, no conviction that he does not either. My relatonship to God is curiosity and openness, having never seen any evidence to support a belief either way.
But something that resonates deeply within me is `faith'. I have faith in positive outcomes for my life (except for death of course. That is outcome is not so great) But apart from that, I have had uncanny experiences to support my faith. I do not know what is responsible, but i feel warm about my life, and that I will be ok .
I don't think I've ever mentioned this, but the naughtiest thing I've `nearly done' in recent years, was I nearly stole my neighbors kitten when I last moved house. She was badly neglected by her owners, and so she would spend most of her time with me during the day and night. I didn't feed her, but she wanted the company. For some reason she took to me and followed me everywhere. I was absolutely in love with her. When our lease expired, I cried for days on end at the thought of losing her, and thats when I considered taking her with me. I didn't do it though.
So I moved into this house, and the universe gave me two little wild birds who wanted my care, then family of kookaburrras, and now we have the freindship of their babies as well . My life is now full of birds and i am full of joy each day when they visit me, or when the fly up to me in the forest. But I could not have had this, if I'd taken the kitty with me.
My life is full of little events like this.
Man, i just rambled on, didn't I? I forget what i was trying to say. Thankyou for listening though, lol.
X Bella
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I'm annoyed with the employment system, because women can't earn a living wage as easily as men, so they often end up having to live with a violent man, as they can't manage on their own.
Janet
Janet, I am annoyed by all of that too. All of it; and I think you hit the nail of the head; this issue is bigger than nagging your hubby.
And thanks for bringing up the issue of the huge differences in power between men and women in their relationships. This fact alone plays an enormous role in the way women bargain in their relationships, and the results.
I can say that in my own life, when I've been the income earner, I have only had to ask my partner to do something (reasonable), and he would do it. In different relationships, where the balance of power was tipped in favour of the man, it was a huge mission just to get him to do little things, like pick up his clothes.
I think power counts. So the answer to the whole pornography issue, is get more money and power than your porn addicted partner. Then ask him to quit porn, and see the result. (I am only sort of joking)
X Bella
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Bella,
Power can be a huge issue in any relationship - esp. a love relationship. And the perception (or illusion) of power.
I am actually one of those "part of the problem" people as someone said who doesn't feel porn is a huge issue.
I don't know if it's because I'm great at dissociation or that I truly don't care if my partner looks at porn.
I have molestation in my background - so the issue for me is "Is this person respecting my desire to have sex now or not?" "Are they ASSUMING they can just have sex with me because they decided?" So actually for me, having porn around can take the pressure off.
And, I would be very very upset if someone came into my house and took away my romance/erotic novels just because someone arbitrarily decided they were "porn". Women and men have totally different brains - men are turned on (generally) by visual stimuli - women tactile.
I have to disagree about the "problem industry" of porn - and I'm NOT NOT NOT talking child porn - that IS the most disgusting and deplorable thing on earth. The true porn industry has strict 18 and over standards. At that age in the US of A I have to say it is a choice to get into - and these young people are businesspeople who are like athletes in a way - they only have those golden years until their bodies are not what they used to be. 18 years old....McDonalds.....or a few hours in front of a camera for big bucks? These people are not being exploited, they are making financial and time choices. And it IS their choice to take a chance on health issues - they are over 18 and most of the filmmakers require condoms.
Anyway - sorry to be devil's advocate. I am interested in the new studies coming out they are doing on pedophiles in prison. I am keeping an eye out because if there IS a relationship between porn and crime - I would have to change my view.
And I also agree that porn is very bad for the OCD or true addict - it can destroy marriages and relationships if not in moderation - only a slice of the "sex" life.
Please don't throw tomatoes!
Dandylife
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Bella,
Power can be a huge issue in any relationship - esp. a love relationship. And the perception (or illusion) of power.
I am actually one of those "part of the problem" people as someone said who doesn't feel porn is a huge issue.
I don't know if it's because I'm great at dissociation or that I truly don't care if my partner looks at porn.
I have molestation in my background - so the issue for me is "Is this person respecting my desire to have sex now or not?" "Are they ASSUMING they can just have sex with me because they decided?" So actually for me, having porn around can take the pressure off.
And, I would be very very upset if someone came into my house and took away my romance/erotic novels just because someone arbitrarily decided they were "porn". Women and men have totally different brains - men are turned on (generally) by visual stimuli - women tactile.
I have to disagree about the "problem industry" of porn - and I'm NOT NOT NOT talking child porn - that IS the most disgusting and deplorable thing on earth. The true porn industry has strict 18 and over standards. At that age in the US of A I have to say it is a choice to get into - and these young people are businesspeople who are like athletes in a way - they only have those golden years until their bodies are not what they used to be. 18 years old....McDonalds.....or a few hours in front of a camera for big bucks? These people are not being exploited, they are making financial and time choices. And it IS their choice to take a chance on health issues - they are over 18 and most of the filmmakers require condoms.
Anyway - sorry to be devil's advocate. I am interested in the new studies coming out they are doing on pedophiles in prison. I am keeping an eye out because if there IS a relationship between porn and crime - I would have to change my view.
And I also agree that porn is very bad for the OCD or true addict - it can destroy marriages and relationships if not in moderation - only a slice of the "sex" life.
Please don't throw tomatoes!
Dandylife
Dandylife, I think this is a personal decision between a couple, and no one else's opinion needs to come into it. If you both feel informed and ok about it, then really that is all that matters in your relationship.
X bella
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[q]Because although I have a right to tell him how his behavior makes me feel,
I have no right to expect or demand that he change for my sake. [/q]
Authentic, this line is taken from the quote in your post (that I was responding to). The rest of the quote pretty much elaborates on this assertion. I think the fact that it states a woman has `no right' to change her spouses behavior is what I disagree with.
I also disagree with the idea that an adult cannot change their behavior and adapt to their partner when it is harming the relationship.
I do agree that it takes two people, and that both people need to agree.
X bella
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I think, in the sense of wanting a man to change, I can agree that I have a right to expect something even from a dysfunctional man...it's sort of a faith thing...believing in what I don't YET see, calling those things that BE NOT as though they are.
On the other hand, there comes a time, when every person needs to decide, IF MY SPOUSE does not change, am I willing to live with him/her as he/she is.
In my spiritual way of seeing things, I can believe that God can "turn a heart of stone to a heart of flesh," whereas, in my logical-thinking, psychological-knowing mind, it seems very unlikely to happen to an extent that will improve things greatly for us.
At this point, I have chosen to see my husband as a human being who has very distorted, flawed thinking, says odd things out of the blue, can't understand why I hurt, laugh, cry, feel certain ways...basically, I am now viewing my husband as DYSFUNCTIONAL, and not being surprised, when he ACTS that way.
I once heard preached in church "What do you EXPECT from a sinner? Sinners SIN...that's what they DO, cause that's who they ARE!"
I'm not saying people living with abusers must stay. I'm saying, in my situation, which does not involve physical abuse, I've decided to view it realistically and to stop expecting "normalcy" from an "abnormal" human being.
~Laura
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Oh, I see Bella,
Yes, then we can agree to disagree huh?
And no hard feelings.
I do believe a woman has the right as ASK that someone make a change but
yes, I don' believe that a woman can expect a DYSFUNCTIONAL man to change (or demand from anyone for that matter.)
She might have that expectation of a man who loves and respects her,
who has demonstrated that he cares for her
but to have that expectation for a man that is dysfunctional and abusive or narcissistic is fooling herself.
and setting herself up for years and conflict, anguish and unhappiness.
Dear authentic, I totally agree:) And I want you to know that there are no hard feelings if we disagree on something; you can disagree with me all you like because I deeply value and trust your perspective. I learn and grow from our discussions, authentic, and i am grateful that you give me your precious time and energy. So please don't worry when we disagree; I will always appreciate and respect you.
I didn't say this earlier because there was so much else being discussed, but I can relate to what you said about how awful it is to be with a partner who always wants to change everything about you. i am sorry that you went thought this, authentic. When I was with my ex N bf, after a while, I got the sense that my ex bf didn't want to change me exactly; I think he just wanted to criticize me because it confirmed (in his mind) that he was superior. I think this is why he would never praise me or admit that the changes I made for him were exactly what he had asked for, because then he would have to let go of his barrage of criticism (which I think he was kind of addicted to). Was it anything like that for you too?
Hugs to you,
X Bella
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Bella,
"I think power counts. So the answer to the whole pornography issue, is get more money and power than your porn addicted partner. Then ask him to quit porn, and see the result. (I am only sort of joking)"
In the relationship with my Nboyfriend, this is exactly how I managed to get away from him. At the time, we were both earning (I earned double what he did). So, when I found out about the porn, I had the 'upper hand', which is unusual in male/female relationships, from a financial point of view. In the end, I 'bought him out' of our jointly-owned house, and he went back to his mother, and I kept the house, paying the mortgage on my own (which I'd always done anyway, as he wouldn't - only now it was official).
I just think it's so unfair that this is such an unusual situation.
Janet
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Authentic,
"Janet, he moved in with his Mom? Now, why doesn't that surprise me?"
When I met this 'man' (for want of a better word), he was 19 and I was 22. We bought our house very soon after meeting (bad move). WHENEVER we argued (and it was often - always 'my' fault), he'd ''retreat' to his mother's to 'punish' me. I got so used to it, that during the rare times that he was actually living with me, if we were talking to people and he referred to the house as 'his' I'd raise my eyebrows and ask 'Are you SURE? But you hardly ever live there - you're always at your mothers!' He used to 'call in' at his mum's on the way home from work, and she'd feed him, so he had two dinners each night, till I found out and stopped cooking for him as well (I'd wondered why his weight had gone from 182 pounds to 252 pounds in a year).
He often used to say 'I love my Mum', but only said that he loved me when he wanted sex.
When he once said to me during an argument 'I just don't like women', I said 'what about your Mum, then?' and he said 'She's different. She's a real woman.'
What on earth was THAT supposed to mean!
Talk about angel/whore dichotomy!
:shock: :shock: :shock:
Janet
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I think, in the sense of wanting a man to change, I can agree that I have a right to expect something even from a dysfunctional man...it's sort of a faith thing...believing in what I don't YET see, calling those things that BE NOT as though they are.
On the other hand, there comes a time, when every person needs to decide, IF MY SPOUSE does not change, am I willing to live with him/her as he/she is.
In my spiritual way of seeing things, I can believe that God can "turn a heart of stone to a heart of flesh," whereas, in my logical-thinking, psychological-knowing mind, it seems very unlikely to happen to an extent that will improve things greatly for us.
Dear Laura,
This is where I was in the midst of NPD-ex... believing that it was possible, but doubting whether N would allow God to be God, since he'd already filled that position within his own life. Since then, I've experienced within myself the turning of a heart to stone to one of flesh... and I see that a person truly has to come to the end of him/her-self before that is possible. And this:
At this point, I have chosen to see my husband as a human being who has very distorted, flawed thinking, says odd things out of the blue, can't understand why I hurt, laugh, cry, feel certain ways...basically, I am now viewing my husband as DYSFUNCTIONAL, and not being surprised, when he ACTS that way.
I once heard preached in church "What do you EXPECT from a sinner? Sinners SIN...that's what they DO, cause that's who they ARE!"
I'm not saying people living with abusers must stay. I'm saying, in my situation, which does not involve physical abuse, I've decided to view it realistically and to stop expecting "normalcy" from an "abnormal" human being.
~Laura
Thank you for the reminder. It's also where I was, trying to come to terms with all that he wasn't... but the thing is - N would not allow that.
He would not allow me to relate to him as a human being. If I would not feed his illusion that his mask was the real "him", then I was not to be permitted to live. Maybe he realy was npd plus... I don't know. I only know that when I came to this point that you describe, he wanted me dead.
Please use caution... because it was when I stopped trying to deal with him as a functional human being that he really became dangerous.
With love,
Hope
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Hope,
That was exactly my experience. I spent years and years and years, trying to relate to my NH as though he were basically functional but just socially backward. When I finally GOT it and realized that he had a personality disorder, I gave up. I realized it wasnt going to get better, no matter what I did, and that I had wasted enough of my life trying.
I got involved in other things. I didnt engage when he wanted to argue with me--I didnt try to convince him of how unreasonable he was being. The last big conversation we had when I was completely calm while he ranted on and on, he ended with "I just can't live with you like this". And then it escalated and it was very scary. And then the marriage was over.
It's kinda like, if you are going to get healthy yourself, you are going to have to come to the point where you quit trying to change the person. But when you do that, you change the sick dynamic in the marriage where the N projects his stuff off onto you. And then all the stuff is in him--and its really bad.
CB
Yes, CB... thank you for expressing it so clearly.
It's really something... when I thought for awhile that he was bpd, he was okay with that. I had all kinds of fact sheets printed up and he basked in all of it.
In fact, his behaviour actually improved for awhile... I suppose because I was willing to make allowances for some of his nonsense as being part of his condition.
Of course, that rapidly deteriorated, and as soon as he knew that I was getting info on npd, the whole picture changed. I was still trying to pacify him, but I remember him sitting here one day and spitting out at me, "I am NOT a narcissist." Yeah huh... then I knew for sure.
Hope
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Of course, that rapidly deteriorated, and as soon as he knew that I was getting info on npd, the whole picture changed. I was still trying to pacify him, but I remember him sitting here one day and spitting out at me, "I am NOT a narcissist." Yeah huh... then I knew for sure.
When I would talk to Kay about her issues and behavior, she was fine, letting me know that Father was working on it with her (Father, being God). As long as I told her how I looked up to her and hung on her every word, all was well. As soon as I began asking her questions about Narcissistic Personality Disorder, she jumped all over me, saying "Anything other than THIS, I can accept and see, but I AM NOT A NARCISSIST, Laura! NUH UH! Narcissists are PSYCHOTIC and I'm not THAT!"
The weird thing was, I'd read her examples from a book about a narcissistic woman, and Kay could tell me that "if that mother keeps on finding her worth in the daughter, she will grow up to be very conceited and punishing," yet, Kay could not see that the girl in the book was HER! She still probably can't.
~L
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My N M is a therapist who sent me an article on N's. She said, "SEE, I am not an N." Hugs Ami
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Just dipping in and out of threads but need to respond to this.
When one is nothing other than an object in a sexual relationship it is about power. Thank you for putting this in black and white. Now I see it. There has to be a violence in it. It is nothing about connection, intimacy and love. It is about being used. Taken me a while to acknowledge this.
I believe it is connected with the whore/madonna model. I think showing that I had needs and desires put me in the "whore" category and because of his inability to seperate he was contaminated by my normal needs.
To lie there and take what he did made me nothing to him other than one of those blow up dolls. I think he probably wished he could let the air out of me and hide me in a cupboard until he needed me again. Boy, this is making me feel ill. To want anything was an over the top demand in his eyes. Thank God I spoke for myself and am now free.
axa
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Axa,
I am so sorry you had the same kind of experience that I had with an unfeeling 'android'.
Your earlier post really triggered things for me. Now that I have got away from my previous violent relationship, I can see it much more clearly. When I was in it, like you, I couldn't understand why I was never valued, or why I was seen as a whore (while being 'frigid', apparently, at the same time :shock: ) .
I'm glad you are free from that awful relationship, too. I'm really glad you saw what needed to be done.
Janet
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(((((CB)))))
I have a feeling "and then it escalated" covers a very very bad time for you.
I'm so sorry hon.
The only good news is that it's only a memory. And you will build a proper memorial and only visit now and then, okay?
lots of love and sisterhood,
Hops
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Janet,
I too am so glad to be out of it. I just hope that if I ended up in a similiar situation that I would run like the wind. I am struck by reading this thread about the split that was going on in myself. The knowing it was bad and abusive and the "hope" that it would get better. I believe that abusers do not change, seems like a huge statement but this is what I believe and has been my experience. I always doubt my gut, give the benefit of the doubt instead of trusting myself. I know if I had read a story about my experience I would be thinking what the hell is that person doing in that relationship. I guess I felt that I did not deserve any better.
I bought into others view of the relationship. As far as they were concerned I had met a guy who was wealthy, wanted me to travel with him, smart etc. but the truth was he was mean, sadistic, abusive. I tried to rationalise the relationship, weigh up what was acceptable and put up with what was not. I think those who have not experienced N relationships just cannot imagine the systematic undermining and the love bombing which goes on. The same devices used in cults. God, how desperate I was for any kind of "love"
axa
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Dear Axa,
This is just how I "lost myself" with my M.It was a systematic brainwashing like they do it cults--- VERY TRUE.
Also, as I get in touch with my inner child., I see how I ,always KNEW the truth about situations BUT I would not face it. I am realizing that we do have a lot of the animal in us. I read the "Gift of fear" a long time ago. The author talks about our "primal" nature. It tells us information which is more true than our head.WE, override it with logic.
I am trying to honor my gut.I knew that my sociopathic b/f was SICK. I knew it down deep, but I "needed' him too much to totally face it.
When I got stronger, I faced it . HOWEVER, I could have gotten REALLY hurt if I disregarded it, totally,which I did not. Love to You Ami
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Axa,
I think, now, that I too would 'run like the wind' if I even felt a whiff of a similar kind of relationship with such a terrible, deformed example of the male of the species. But when you're in it, and you have absolutely no self-esteem, and all that other people can see is the nicey-nice performance that they give in puiblic, it is so hard to understand it. My Nboyfriend used to appear so 'normal' in public, then, on the same day, we'd go home and he would throw me from one side of the room to the other, for some stupid reason like I'd asked him to put away his coat. WHA? :shock:
Sometimes, if we were out and we'd bump into people he knew, but I didn't, he'd actually push me behind him with one hand to hide me from them, or if we were in the car, he'd put his hand on my head and just squash me down out of sight, so that it looked like he was alone in the car, rather than have people see him with me - he was that ashamed of me. That takes a lot of getting over.
This is a person who raped me. This is a person who, after I split up with him, my family continued to see, and when I said 'after all he's done to ME?' they said, 'Oh, don't be like that, he's a good bloke really.'
Unbelievable.
No wonder we have trouble with our self-esteem.
Janet
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Dear Janet,
I am so sorry that you went through all that suffering. You are right, though, a life with your mother prepared you for just that.
Thank God that you got away and found someone to love who treats you kindly and gently. That is a success story. Also,you have made your own business.
Your M could not crush you the way that she wanted.Thank God for that. Love Ami
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Authentic,
"Awe, we're gonna miss him though, he was so funny."
That's a despicable thing to have said to you. I'm so sorry - as you said, they are in so much denial, and they're so callous. When I see it happening with someone else, I can see it as it is - when it was me, though (especially as I heard these callous comments from my own family right after I'd split up with him, so I was still reeling from his treatent of me), I just thought 'Oh well, I suppose they've got the right to still see him if they want to.'
I just didn't see it straight.
If my step-daughter had been in the same situation with a 'boyfriend', I'd have KILLED HIM WITH MY BARE HANDS!!! No way would I have kept up a 'social' relationship with the bastard! That's what is so crazy-making about all this - the FOO treat you as if you're a non-being, and then look at you as if you've got two heads when you call them on ther behaviour.
Ami,
You're right, my NMum couldn't crush me, but she had one hell of a try! It was her and my sister who 'set me up' with this boyfriend in the first place - because they thought he'd 'do' for me (better to have 'someone' than 'no-one', apparently. :shock: )
Janet
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Janet:
If my step-daughter had been in the same situation with a 'boyfriend', I'd have KILLED HIM WITH MY BARE HANDS!!! No way would I have kept up a 'social' relationship with the bastard!
When I read this, it reminded me of something that was the reverse in a sense.
When Kay and I ended our friendship/ministry partnership, whatever you want to call it, I was still talking to her mother. It seemed her mother and I had no problems getting along, yet KAY would come to me and accuse me of trying to get back close with her (Kay) through her mother.
I can recall one day when she said to me "suuuuuuuuuure you aren't trying to get back with me. You haven't talked to my mother hardly at all, and now, after we split, all of a sudden you are messaging her almost every day."
I also recall my reply "Kay, in the beginning you told me that if I wanted to be close to your mother, that it had NOTHING TO DO WITH YOU, WAS A TOTALLY SEPARATE RELATIONSHIP," and, yet now, all of a sudden, you know exactly how often I message your mother online and you seem upset that I'm still close with her. What's goin on, Kay?"
She: "well, when things ended with ME, they should have ended with my mother too!"
Me: "oh, so your mother doesn't have the right to have a relationship with whom she pleases, just cause YOU don't like them anymore?"
She: "I didn't say that."
Me: "what ARe you saying then?"
She: "I know how you are using my mother to get to me!"
Me: "I wouldn't do anything to come between your mother and you."
She (mockingly laughing) "oh don't WORRY about that. I'm not even meaning that, cause THAT would never happen. Mom and I are TIGHT!"
Me: "Ok ok, so what are you all upset over, just cause your mother and I are still close?"
She: "I'm just saying I KNOW WHAT YOU ARE DOING AND IT'S NOT GOING TO WORK!"
Me: "I have no clue what you are talking about. Your mother and I have NOTHING to do with any relationship I had with you!"
She: "Well, that's how it goes. I know what you're doing...cause you wouldn't even be talking to my mother if it weren't for me being in this."
Me: (LAUGHING IN DISBELIEF) "ARE YOU REALLY THAT VAIN?????????? Do you honestly think I people become friends with your mother, just so they can be close to you? COME ON NOW!"
She: "I ain't saying that. I'm just saying your plan is not going to work!"
HONESTLY, in the end, her mother pulled away from me, most likely torn between a bio-daughter and a friend who was like a daughter to her. Her mother wasn't there for me much after that, no doubt upon Kay's URGING, BEGGING, and PHONY TEARS OF ENVY AND INSECURITY...and, finally, I met my current spiritual mom who is AWESOME and HOLY and a wonderful friend to me, and Kay's mother "handed me over" to this new, TRUE mom.
Sorry if it seems like so much online/offline drama, but that's really how the relationship with Kay all concluded...well, besides her replacing me with my former best friend and 2 other women after her.
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Janet and Authentic,
I had a similar experience - it wasn't rape but it involved a violent boyfriend. I am so sorry you went through this.
Shortly after I got out of the violent relationship, I was at my parents house one day, and my father said to me: your brother and I were talking about what happened to you, your brother said he can understand why [BF] got violent with you.
:shock: :shock: :shock:
It was adding insult to injury. I was devastated by this. It really was a breaking point for me. No one, but no one deserves to be beat up or raped for any reason. It is sick attitudes like this that perpetuate abuse.
I am very sorry you had this too - it was awful.
I am also sitting here in shock that so much of our stories are so similar.
Peace
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Peace,
That kind of attitude towards women who endure violent relationships are what perpetuate them. I'm sorry they treated you like that, after all you'd been through. It's the ultimate in not hearing you, isn't it?
Reallyme,
I'm not sure I understand the 'reverse' situation you've described. I, too, have had friends and acquaintances who wanted (and did) stay friendly towards my family when I was cut off by them and labelled as 'the one with the problem'. That was their choice, even if I didn't agree with them. I wouldn't have tried to interfere with their choice - they are adults, after all.
But I don't see it as anything like the same situation, when the rapist ex-boyfriend of a woman keeps a relationship going with the mother and sister of that woman. Do you see that as similar to your situation, then? In what way? My ex boyfriend wasn't trying to get back with me through my family - I never heard from him directly, ever, after we split.
I just see it as another way that thay totally abandoned me, to never admit that what I went though was appalling, and that I should have had familial support.
I think that should come before having the right to ' a relationship with whom she pleases'. That's what I meant by I would kill anybody who hurt my step-daughter like that - even if I'd been perfectly friendly with them beforehand. 'Step-mother love' comes before 'social acquanitances', in my book!
Janet
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Janet,
I'm sorry and do apologize. I must have misunderstood something. There was just something in your post that triggered a memory with me, I guess.
I do NOT EVER EVER EVER feel that rape is ok or that there is ANY REASON for it. I was RAPED too, by a former boyfriend, as well as assaulted by a friend of my family, even right at my own grandfather's funeral parlor meeting. I KNOW what it feels like to be unheard, brushed off and even ACCUSED OF WANTING it.
I sure didn't mean for my post to sound like any type of JUSTIFICATION of this heinous perpetration.
I think I was just remembering another situation that felt SO UNFAIR to me.
~Laura
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Laura,
It's OK, we all have triggers. I just didn't get what you meant, that's all. There seemed no rational link between friends and ex violent boyfriends wanting to keep in touch with N parents - different ball game entirely!
Authentic,
You're a fantastic mother. Your daughter is very lucky to have you.
Janet
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Janet, Authentic, Peace:
Line 'em up.
I am ready to abandon my pacifism.
throttle throttle choke smack whack
(I realize that's not a mature response but it makes me angry.)
Hops