I gotta ask...porno and N's

[changing]

There are many points that have been made that I agree with, however-
1. One can be exposed to diseases or damaged by a spouse without prior knowledge of the infidelity or other behaviors.
2. Behaviors are not neccessarily "who we are"- thank goodness, or I would have no chance to change, make better choices, etc. in the future. It is true that change is quite difficult, but sometimes changes are more easily accomplished when one has support from others (of course, one must want to change). If a behavior threatens one's marriage, this can be a powerful motivating factor if the marriage is valued. We are all tempted to do things that might compromise something we value, and so we stop short of acting out.
3. If a hidden problem comes up in a marriage ( I agree with Norwood that it might be nonproductive to put the same effort into a "boyfriend"- by the way, why is anyone over the age of 17 called a "boyfriend" anyway- we should come up with something better! At any rate, trying to change a boyfriend in order to make him into  suitable marriage material does seem to be a waste of time) and one spouse (husband or wife) indicates that they want to change (stop gambling away the house money, comparing their spouse to porno actors,etc) after they are "called" on their behavior, they can be accountable to the other spouse, in order to reinforce changed behavior. In my NH's case, he hid his behavior, and when he was called on it he obviously did not want to change, did not value our marriage, and instead tried to use coercion to keep me in my place- but I still don't see his behavior as what he is, rather it is a choice at this point. One can be overweight, addicted to unhealthy foods, and refuse to stop- or one can modify their behavior alone or with the help of a spouse, and avoid a heart attack-  but the food is not "them".
4. Of course, some pathological behaviors cannot reasonably be expected to be modified, but we are discussing more common areas of concern.
5. Some people develop new behaviors after marriage, ie taking up drinking, overeating, etc.

NH valued his behavior above all else, but not all husbands and wives do. Some quit drinking, drugging, etc. and are happy that they are no longer in bondage, although the temptation remains . I certainly want to change my life and choices, and if I remarry and I am doing something destructive, I would want a chance to improve things.

When the porno thing becomes more real and more important than the actual spouse, the spouse needs to communicate the hurt and the danger- Norwood talks about ultimatums that one might not go through with, which may be true for "boyfriends" but in terms of a marriage, some behaviors are destructive and they will tear a marriage apart, whether or not any ultimatums are issued, or whether an actual divorce takes place or the spouse just looks the other way and gives up on the marriage in that manner.
I sincerely hope that things get better for ReallyMe, and her husband listens to her with an open heart, which is what I asked my H to do. She deserves to feel loved and valued and happy in her home (we all do).

Changing

[Certain Hope]

I did come up with a sort of solution though.  I told my husband today that maybe, since he seems to think that "the book says that you should LIKE this" maybe I need to literally bring the book to bed and TELL him "yes, that feels good, no that doesn't"  Maybe I need to "teach" him how to treat me.



~Laura

Laura,

Great plan! I figure a guy with a book is at least trying to learn.... ahem. Well, yanno. I think you'll make a great teacher! 

Wishing you well!

Hope

[Ami]

As I was reading your replies, an Al Anon phrase popped in to my mind. You have to  try not  to "control the outcome".
  It is so funny ,but I was in Al Anon for 10 years, I think , and I NEVER got it in the heart. I never understood what they were saying about co-dependency(in the heart). Now, that I am truly healing, I understand all the jokes and sayings that I could not understand at the time.
  For example there is a joke that if the co- dependent dies-- someone else's life flashes before them. I thought that this was the 'most stupid" joke. The reason was that I did not get it-- lol.
  Anyway, Al- Anon would say for Laura( or any of us) to explain her position, her feelings, get a book to show him etc -- BUT detach from the outcome. IOW, she can't make him "get it". She can bring him to water but not make him drink--- so to speak.
  For the moment, I gave up on my H b/c he simply did not get it. He did not get that I have to be treated with kindness, love and respect for me to be attracted to him. It is non negotiable.If he does not-- I can't be attracted to him and I am not going to "fake it" b/c I am worth more than that
  Anyway, I wanted to add the "wisdom" from Al Anon to the discussion                 Love     Ami

[Hopalong]

Hi Changing,
How about...manfriend?

Maybe if I snare me a geezer I'll try that out.

 

Hops

[axa]

Been really busy so did not have time to read all of the posts but want to add my experience.

When XN and I started to sleep together in the beginning I had a real sense of there being no one there........ cannot describe the feeling other than that.  For a while the sex was okish in that it takes time for people to get to know each others needs etc.  It dawned on me after a short while that it was always about him.  I  gave him books to read, tried to talk about it but he then insisted that he had no need for sex and also I had so destroyed his confidence by my DEMANDS, like maybe I'd like a little contact other than intercourse.  His Xwife never made any demands sexually ................ one of those monents where I was stunned into silence. 

He often "worked" late on the computer........ silly old me, it was only last year that I realised that he had an addiction to porn.  His excuse, it was some evil spirit driving him to view the porn.  One evening I was cooking dinner and went into the bedroom to ask him a question to find him viewing young women mastrubating themselves.  I tried to stay calm and talk to him about it.  He said he thought it was ok, they were older than his daughter and he liked the fact that they were on tv and he had no connection with them.  I just blew a fuse. 

It is all about objectification.... porn being N supply, its the same thing.  I still feel dirty when I think of him.  I recall being in bed with him one time when he made advances and I told him I did not want to have sex, he just did it anyway and said, Guess I should not have done that when you said no....  Oh God, it still makes me sick.

Axa

[JanetLG]

Axa,

Your post has made me reply ...up to now I've been reading this thread, but holding back from adding to it.

What I keep reading beneath the surface, over and over again, is that so many women here are saying 'well, the sex was unemotional, but I want to keep my marriage going, I don't like him using porn, buy hey! what can you do? It makes him treat me 'badly', and I don't like it, but....'

THESE MEN ARE RAPING YOU.

Every time you 'put up with' sex that you find uncomfortable emotionally, or physically, or demeaning, or unpleasant in any way...it's rape. It's without your consent. Being married to the rapist doesn't mean you have given your consent.

Rape does not just happen to women who get dragged off down an alley in the dark. Most rapes happen to women who live with (or used to live with) their 'attacker'.

To put up with it more than once, just gives them the green light to go on doing it. And they're not going to stop, because they like doing it. It's a violent act, not a sexual one.

I should know, I lived with someone who did it for six years. He was 'only' my boyfirend-  (Changing - I have to disagree with you on this one - when you're engaged to someone and living in a house that you're buying together, and at least one of you wants it to be permanent, it's as difficult to walk away as if you're married) - but he got more and more addicted to pornography, spending our money on it instead of the mortgage, just like the rest of you are saying happens in your relationships.

After I split up with him, and met my husband, I thought I could put all that behind me, but the legacy of it haunted our marriage until after six years I started having counselling.

At a Rape Crisis Centre, once a week for a year.

It was only then that I realised what I had actually gone through, and how much work it took to get over it.

Anyone here who thinks they 'should' stay in a marriage for the sake of the children, I'd say this to them: how would you feel explaining to your kids when they're older, that you put up with being raped so that they didn't have to move house or change schools? Do you think they might feel just a touch guilty, for 'making you' reach that decision on their behalf? I'm certainly not saying it's an easy decision - it took me three years just to start trying to do something about it. And when your self-esteem is on the floor, it's so hard to believe you CAN do anything.

I just think this discussion about partners using porn, and how they might be 're-trained' using books, etc., is just missing the point. If you're being raped, get out.



Janet, feeling bloody annoyed.

[Ami]

OH-OH

[JanetLG]

Authentic,

Thanks for your response. I can see the thing about changing yourself because you can't change the other person - I understand that.

Perhaps I didn't make it clear about why I'm so annoyed.

For one thing, I am NOT annoyed with the women posting here. You're in a dreadful situation. I can appreciate that. BUT.....


I'm annoyed with these awful men who objectify women to the point that they can make them feel like shit for years - even after the women have got away (and I know not all men are like this, too).

I'm annoyed with the media for perpetuating the stupid notion that only tarty women who dress up and stand on street corners get raped, and if they do, well, they probably deserved it (they didn't, actually).

I'm annoyed with the police, who like to think that 'domestics' are inconsequential, and don't need to be taken seriously.

I'm annoyed with the Criminal Justice System as a whole, for making laws that suit men, and dismiss women, or make them just 'possessions' of men, so in court, women can't get a fair hearing.

I'm annoyed with the ridiculously lenient sentences that men DO get when convicted of rape (around two years, before 'good behaviour' is taken into account), that are only applied to 6% of men who get taken to court at all.

I'm annoyed with the court system (in the UK) that means IT IS THE LAW that, just before a jury goes out to consider its verdict in a rape case, the judge HAS TO 'advise' the jury that 'women in cases such as this have been known to lie' - giving an uneducated jury the mistaken belief that IN THIS PARTICULAR CASE, perhaps the woman IS a liar, therefore making their decision likely to be biased.

I'm annoyed with the parents of the women on this forum, who brought them up to have such poor self-esteem, that they were unable to recognise a dysfunctional person when they saw them.

I'm annoyed with the Governments' social services system, that knows damn well that there is only one place in a women's refuge for every TEN THOUSAND women who need a place (in the UK) - that's not per ten thousand women as a whole, that's ten thousand women who need to get away from an abusive man.

I'm annoyed with the employment system, because women can't earn a living wage as easily as men, so they often end up having to live with a violent man, as they can't manage on their own.

I'm annoyed with women who pretend it's not happening, and don't support other women when they speak out.


That's why I'm annoyed.


Janet

[Hopalong]

Oh Janet.
Say it, sister!
Heartfelt understanding on this ...

love and awe
Hops

[JanetLG]

Authentic and Hops,

Thank you...I'm starting to calm down a bit, now.

Janet

[reallyME]

He often "worked" late on the computer........ silly old me, it was only last year that I realised that he had an addiction to porn.  His excuse, it was some evil spirit driving him to view the porn.

sorry I forgot who posted this one...but I want to say something.  His excuse about the "evil spirit driving" him...if he's going to try and use THAT argument, and if you ever have the topic come up again with him, just let him know that the Bible, which speaks of temptation by evil spirits, clearly states that "a man sins, when he is tempted, drawn away by HIS OWN LUSTS.  Let's not give the devil the credit for our stupid, selfish choices, dude!

Jan,

I just wanted to say that it wasn't my mother who brought me up to go to dysfunctional men, per se, although she did stay with my step dad for years and he was OCD, OCPD and Paranoid-schiz.  I ended up with my H because I was trying to escape a control situation.

~Laura

[Bella_French]

There are many points that have been made that I agree with, however-
1. One can be exposed to diseases or damaged by a spouse without prior knowledge of the infidelity or other behaviors.
2. Behaviors are not neccessarily "who we are"- thank goodness, or I would have no chance to change, make better choices, etc. in the future. It is true that change is quite difficult, but sometimes changes are more easily accomplished when one has support from others (of course, one must want to change). If a behavior threatens one's marriage, this can be a powerful motivating factor if the marriage is valued. We are all tempted to do things that might compromise something we value, and so we stop short of acting out.
3. If a hidden problem comes up in a marriage ( I agree with Norwood that it might be nonproductive to put the same effort into a "boyfriend"- by the way, why is anyone over the age of 17 called a "boyfriend" anyway- we should come up with something better! At any rate, trying to change a boyfriend in order to make him into  suitable marriage material does seem to be a waste of time) and one spouse (husband or wife) indicates that they want to change (stop gambling away the house money, comparing their spouse to porno actors,etc) after they are "called" on their behavior, they can be accountable to the other spouse, in order to reinforce changed behavior. In my NH's case, he hid his behavior, and when he was called on it he obviously did not want to change, did not value our marriage, and instead tried to use coercion to keep me in my place- but I still don't see his behavior as what he is, rather it is a choice at this point. One can be overweight, addicted to unhealthy foods, and refuse to stop- or one can modify their behavior alone or with the help of a spouse, and avoid a heart attack-  but the food is not "them".
4. Of course, some pathological behaviors cannot reasonably be expected to be modified, but we are discussing more common areas of concern.
5. Some people develop new behaviors after marriage, ie taking up drinking, overeating, etc.

NH valued his behavior above all else, but not all husbands and wives do. Some quit drinking, drugging, etc. and are happy that they are no longer in bondage, although the temptation remains . I certainly want to change my life and choices, and if I remarry and I am doing something destructive, I would want a chance to improve things.

When the porno thing becomes more real and more important than the actual spouse, the spouse needs to communicate the hurt and the danger- Norwood talks about ultimatums that one might not go through with, which may be true for "boyfriends" but in terms of a marriage, some behaviors are destructive and they will tear a marriage apart, whether or not any ultimatums are issued, or whether an actual divorce takes place or the spouse just looks the other way and gives up on the marriage in that manner.
I sincerely hope that things get better for ReallyMe, and her husband listens to her with an open heart, which is what I asked my H to do. She deserves to feel loved and valued and happy in her home (we all do).

Changing

Changing, That summaries so well what I've learned from my relationships. Thank you for your  beautifully articulated post.

[Bella_French]

Bella, I am enjoy this discussion also, but please know I don't necesarily disagree with you.

I think what Ms. Norwood is saying, and I agree with her, is that when someone tells you over and over again that they like something and don't want to change,

Wouldn't you agree with that?

Authentic, I totally agree with this, yes. I actually think we're totally on the same page, lol:) My disagreement is with the author, not you.

I didn't interpret the author's overall message as  `nagging doesn't work' and I didn't think this was her point at all.  She was taking it one step further, and saying that we have no right to try  to change a partner's behavior, even when it is destroying the relationship or harming us. She was making the point ``We have no right'' to do this.

I think her intention was to uncover a lot of ineffective tactics that some women use to try to change their relationships. Her conclusion was that ```women should not try to change their relationships''. In my mind that conclusion is faulty. Like a  lot of self help book authors, this was probably her opinion to start off with, and she went looking for evidence to support her opinion whilst ignoring the rest.

What I think would have been a lot more constructive, would have been to ALSO  investigate and document relationships which were able to recover from great challenges, rather than conclude that that it is impossible.

X Bella

[Bella_French]

As I was reading your replies, an Al Anon phrase popped in to my mind. You have to  try not  to "control the outcome".
  I  Love     Ami

Dear Ami, This is the one part of the 12 step program that I do not relate to at all. I think Co-D's have spent their lives being powerless, and I've always thought that it was bad advice to tell a Co-D to embrace yet more powerlessness. It doesn't sit well with me.

I feel that what Co-D's need most of all is to experience empowerment by learning `how' to get their needs met, using tools such faith, conscious decision making, communication, negotiation, and assertiveness. Most Co-D's have learned to manipulate others subtly to get what they need, or they have learned destructive habits they needed in their childhood to survive abuse. 

Faith is an important part of this process, but not the entire process. Faith is what we need to move forward *on the right path*, without knowing the outcome. Faith is what we need to let go when the result is not what we hoped for. I am thinking of the serenity prayer as I right this. We need to sometimes take action and sometimes let go,  and wisdom to know the difference.

Its weird, i have absolutely no feeling either way about God. No sense that he exists, no conviction that he does not either. My relatonship to God is curiosity and openness, having never seen any evidence to support a belief either way.

But something that resonates deeply within me is `faith'. I have faith in positive outcomes for my life (except for death of course. That is outcome is not so great) But apart from that,  I have had uncanny experiences to support my faith. I do not know what is responsible, but i feel warm about my life, and that I will be ok .

I don't think I've ever mentioned this, but the naughtiest thing I've `nearly done' in recent years, was  I nearly stole my neighbors kitten when I last moved house. She was badly neglected by her owners, and so she would spend most of her time with me during the day and night. I didn't feed her, but she wanted the company. For some reason she took to me and followed me everywhere. I was absolutely in love with her. When our lease expired, I cried for days on end at the thought of losing her, and thats when I considered taking her with me. I didn't do it though.

So I moved into this house, and the universe gave me two little wild birds who wanted my care, then family of kookaburrras, and now we have the freindship of their babies as well . My life is now full of birds and i am full of joy each day when they visit me, or when the fly up to me in the forest. But I could not have had this, if I'd taken the kitty with me.

My life is full of little events like this.

Man, i just rambled on, didn't I? I forget what i was trying to say. Thankyou for listening though, lol.

X Bella

[Bella_French]

I'm annoyed with the employment system, because women can't earn a living wage as easily as men, so they often end up having to live with a violent man, as they can't manage on their own.


Janet

Janet, I am annoyed by all of that too. All of it; and I think you hit the nail of the head; this issue is bigger than nagging your hubby.

And thanks for bringing up the issue of the huge differences in power between men and women in their relationships. This fact alone plays an enormous role in the way women bargain in their relationships, and the results.

I can say that in my own life, when I've been the income earner, I have only had to ask my partner to do something (reasonable), and he would do it. In different relationships, where the balance of power was tipped in favour of the man, it was a huge mission just to get him to do little things, like pick up his clothes.

I think power counts. So the answer to the whole pornography issue, is get more money and power than your porn addicted partner. Then ask him to quit porn, and see the result. (I am only sort of joking)

X Bella