I gotta ask...porno and N's

[reallyME]

For any of you who had N's that you were physically involved with, did they expect you to behave lik a porno queen.

In my case, NH will tell me "all the books say you are supposed to LIKE this!"  "This is supposed to drive you wild."

When he talks to me and says this stuff, I feel like he's talking to an object saying, "what's WRONG WITH YOU?  When I push this button, you are SUPPOSED to wiggle, and when I ring this bell, you are supposed to jiggle.  I don't get it!"

Because of this, I'm not too shy to tell you, that our love life is pretty much NIL at this point.  He has objectified me right down to my physical body, and he just doesn't GET why I don't want him near me anymore!

Last night, we were supposed to go out to eat to celebrate our birthdays and anniversary all in one.  This was HIS idea.  Because our daughters had a baseball game and needed the car, however, we opted instead to buy movies and pizza and stay home, just the two of us.

It ended up that I tried to explain to him that the people in porno, A.) are not CHRISTIAN  B.)  are ACTING  C.)  are not ME...by the time the night was over, I was sleeping downstairs with my daughter, and NH was mumbling "you ruined another night!" When my 13 year old asked him about how our night went, he said "ASK YER MOTHER!"

Honestly, this man is repulsive to me at this point.  I'm biding my time and seeing how this new job works out, since, for a while, I have to rely on NH to get me there.  If things do not VASTLY improve, I will most likely be making my way ELSEWHERE so that I can find some PEACE and not have to feel guilty about "NOT LIKING TO BE TOUCHED THE WAY THE "BOOKS" and "EVERYTHING I READ," and "ALL THE EXPERTS SAY,"  "I've NEVER heard of ANYONE NOT LIKING THIS.  YOU ARE THE ONLY ONE!"

I'm just glad I'm as strong as I am to STAND MY GROUND!  his messed up, orphanage-abused, narcissistic, child-molesting father RUINED HIM!

sighs,
~Laura

[Certain Hope]

Laura,

My ex-husband was NPD to the Nth degree. He didn't make love... he masturbated himself using my body as a tool.

Your husband sounds like he's very interested in the mechanics of sex. I don't know how you can possibly get him to understand what it is that you actually DO like, without showing him. If you're interested, I think you'll have to take his hand and also give him very specific directions... and probably also tell him to do you a favor and just don't talk through the whole lesson.

((((((Laura))))))) he's clueless, I know. Of course, it's up to you whether you want to give him instruction in how to please you in bed.
One thing I know for sure is that God designed sex to be pleasurable for both wife and husband, and not just a mechanical exercise or a method of fulfilling one partner's porno fantasies.

I get the feeling that your husband doesn't view you as a tool... and that's a good sign... but he does seem to think of your body as a machine. If you can show (not tell) him specifically what you do enjoy, maybe he can learn. If you want to.

Hope

[gratitude28]

Laura,
I think that anything two people do together that they WANT to do together is fine. However, your husband does not seem to see you as part of a couple - he appears to be seeing you as the one person he can have sex with. One actress made me laugh when she wrote about how a man can "get some." She said if he went in the bathroom and took a shower and came out and siad, "Honey, I love the new mat you got in the bathroom," that would be it for her. The point is, a man needs to learn to appreciate what a woman cares - or the partner cares about. It seems your husband doesn't see that you value your relationship as a husband and wife in the eyes of God - that you should be a united front and have interests together and respect for one another.
(((((((((((((((Laura))))))))))))))))))))))
I am sorry you have such a tough situation.
Love, Beth

[dandylife]

Laura,
This is a very tough issue to overcome when you have such differing views. Where it stands right now for you I would suggest marital counseling - I think you may need an authority figure to guide your H to a gentler and inclusive view of sex with you. (Include your mind along with your body) You said in another post your H responds to authority figures.

I've had many discussions about sex with my H but not the mechanics of it or what we're going to do but with us it's more that he exudes this attitude that since he works so hard and provides so well that the least I can do is make sure he gets sexual pleasure on a very regular basis. I hate that attitude - it's just so antiquated and it makes me feel objectified.

I think it is the dream/fantasy of every guy (guys?) to have a lover like a porn queen. Perhaps you can say to your H - I'll fulfill your fantasy once a week if you fulfill mine once a week? What is your fantasy? That could be fun.

Love,
Dandylife

[Hopalong]

since he works so hard and provides so well that the least I can do is make sure he gets sexual pleasure on a very regular basis

RM, oy. I think he's been brainwashed for so long to objectify sex that he doesn't see that it's about intimacy. Well, it's about pleasure too, but I love what Beth said about the shower mat...it's about feeling appreciated and desired as an individual PERSON, not just as a handy gender-machine.

God, I hate pornography. I hate the industry, I hate the fact that so few people bother to connect the degradation of the people they're watching with their support of that industry by watching it. As if it weren't general knowledge that most of the actors, female and male, come from horrible backgrounds that almost invariably featured childhood sexual abuse. And what are they doing? They are reenacting their childhood exploitation by becoming porn stars! So am I going to RE-exploit them by watching them, feeding money into the industry that uses them like meat?

I watched some porn. I know it is titillating. But I have a daughter. Hell, I'd feel the same way if I had a son.

I think it's the apex of cultural degradation. It's not being puritanical...sex is FABULOUS! Just for god's sake, if you want to watch other people that badly go join a swinger's club. At least there, you'd have to be with other human beings and not hiding behind a screen like a peep-show voyeur. Seems gross to me (as well as disease-y), but theoretically at least, it sounds more honest.

Oh blecchh. I think this culture is seriously screwed up about sex. I don't mean to sound like a prude but I think we've (cultural collective "we") overexposed sex so much that we've just about drained it of mystery and delight.

I also believe any two people who are committed to viewing their sexual relationship as one of mystery and delight can turn their backs on all that crap and recreate something wonderful. But it is an overwhelming tide.

All that said, I've been celibate for over 2 years now and though I am used to it, I don't want to be. It's a joy, with the right person, and it's time I got brave enough to date again. Because even if I DO date, it'll be many months still...

sorry, digressing...
Hops

[reallyME]

Hops,

you said that watching porn is "tintillating"...well, honestly, I don't get turned on by it anymore.  First, it's disgusting to me to actually SEE sex happening.  Secondly, I believe the meds I used to take, have dulled my sensitivity in that area.

I did come up with a sort of solution though.  I told my husband today that maybe, since he seems to think that "the book says that you should LIKE this" maybe I need to literally bring the book to bed and TELL him "yes, that feels good, no that doesn't"  Maybe I need to "teach" him how to treat me.



~Laura

[Hopalong]

Hi Laura,
I think that's a brilliant idea.
I think you've happened on a huge insight...your husband has a LITERAL mind.

So if you literally explain to him in a literal way what works for you, that may open a new door to mutual pleasure.
And that would be lovely.

Sending love,
Hops

[isittoolate]

My contribution to this is that we rented a movie after a bit when we first met. It seemed too natural for him, to be an occasional thing.

FFwd to unpacking out here and I see 10 video cassettes and 4 CDs of porn that he quickly stashed away in the closet of the room my chair couldn't go into, and that room was to be his office. He was always staying up late and I knew why. There's plenty of porn online and I doubted he even remembered what he owned.

As time went on I bought a new wheelchir and it was narrower. I went into his office and removed the videos and CDs and stashed them. He never asked about them at all. (When I left him 4 years later, I had them with me and then put them, ruined, into my garbage out back.

But when I was still there, I saw he had print and file sharing turned on my computer. I kept turning it off, but then it would be on again. He was checking out my computer, but one day he was out so I checked out his. I found a file of 10GB of porn flicks. I was so disgusted to see that on my computer that I closed the file and hit Delete for the Folder-----------oopsy on him!

Only about a week later he asked me about a missing folder that he needed and I said I didn't know........ he was downstairs (now) and I was upstairs--maybe it was one of his customers. He never mentioned it again.

If a man showers and a woman bathes, every day, using the same kind of soap, would the man run out of 6 bars when the woman has 4 left? The shower was in the laundry room and I can only bathe, bathroom.


Laura

My ex-husband was NPD to the Nth degree. He didn't make love... he masturbated himself using my body as a tool.

Oh I understand that statement completely

The topic of Ns and sex always arises and all Ns appear to be dysfunctional in that area for some reason.

Also the subject of kissing arises and here it was like a fat worm bouncing back and forth in my mouth, but mainly was as though he was kissing his grandmother (on the cheek) but on the lips and not romantic at all.

Eeeeekyuck--shiver---ewwww---mmph---puhhhhhhhhhhh-shiver---

Izzy

In case you didn't know, you can click on an attached picture, as below, and enlarge it


[attachment deleted by admin]

[changing]

ReallyMe-

My NH had a secret porno life. I never saw the stuff, the idea never appealed to me. NH did not work for almost 3 years, and acted as if he needed me to do everyhing for him (I have a physical disability). He became increasingly hostile, and would threaten to kill me, knock me to the floor right after I had surgery, make demands for me to do house repairs, etc that I am now physically able to do only in stages. When I was cleaning, I found a DVD player and at least 50 porno CDs, I didn't look closely, they seemed pitiable and disgusting- this must have cost us a lot of money, especially since he was receiving a limited early retirement benefit. I threw the Sony DVD player on the floor repeatedly until I heard a satisfying cracking noise. Then I noticed the cable bill had been paid from our account- it was about $500.00 per month for porno. NH never took me out in the last 3 years, not even for a walk, never helped, etc., but it seems that he had plenty of time and ability to buy porno, watch porno, hide porno, etc. and play softball 5 times a week at least. He too said that all marriages were like that, that he didn't care about me and that was normal, that he used to think that he was obsessed with me because of great sex, but that couldn't be, etc- when we split, he actually tried to insult me by saying that he had sex with his first ex-wife when he left her, to have something good to remember her by, but he had no desire to do that with me (Oh Brother, WHAT AN IDIOT)!!! Instead of being hurt ( he actually thought that he was insulting me), I laughed at him and his twisted thinking, and let him know in no uncertain terms that if he wanted to leave me alone, that was wonderful!!! EWWW!!!ECCHHH!!!( How had he become so detached from reality?)
NH was molested  as a child ,repeatedly he said, by various neighbor men ( no father and his mother was an alcoholic who played Bingo every night, had a granny there to care for him  but she didn't go outside), had an adult cousin in their apartment who pretended to sleep while he touched her, and his M walked around naked or mostly exposed constantly ( the vile old thing wore a see through baby doll once when she visited us, even though I had given her an expensive gown, slippers, and robe, really gorgeous- I freaked, my NH told her to put some clothes on, and then told me how she had acted when he was a child, and that he hadn't noticed that she was showing her nether regions until I freaked... he was used to it (I think I'm going to vomit). She also liked going to topless shows, transvestite shows, nude beaches, etc. with her adult son or her friends, and never had him call her Mother, but her first name (even now). When he was a teenager, he would have girls over at their railroad style apartment and the mom and maybe granny would get a gander. Also mom would have men over when he was a child and , oh it's too disgusting. I wish I had known this before we married- there would have been no wedding. NH mom also said I was "no fun" because I didn't gamble, drink, etc- there was never any question about my going to sex shows or nude beaches, she didn't even dare suggest it, etc, but she did expect to sleep in our room on a cot once (Oh Lordy)- unbelievable! I set her straight immediately ( didn't know about the childhood stuff or the old molester woman would have never stepped foot in my house!)
NH's father had hired a hooker for his NH first sexual experience ( he and M had split up prior to NH birth and this was the second time he had seen him), and hid, watching everything, then laughed at his son. I wish that I had known this as well- there would have been no marriage!

The porno is sad, all molesting and exploiting EVIL, SICK & SAD SAD SAD- I have no problem saying so. This board is the first place that I have been able to discuss this porno stuff and my NH- I was really embarrassed and ashamed. I don't think it gets better, I am so happy to be free of NH and his baggage...Now I know that this is something I need to check out prior to getting involved, etc- it's like drug addiction !

Hope things improve for you- you deserve better!

Changing

[Ami]

Dear Changing,
  I am glad that you could unburden your heart a little by sharing those awful memories.People get so lost(like your exH and MIL). WOW.I am so sorry that you had to be part of that awful ,demeaning situation.
  I am not condoning your H's behavior at all, but what an awful background he had.
  Sometimes the ONLY thing that keeps me going in this pitiful life is knowing that there were be another "life" where all this pain will be so far removed that we will not remember even a smidgen of it.
                                                           Love to you, Dear Changing,      Ami

[Ami]

Dear Laura
  Authentic's letter is what I did with my H. I will NOT condone abuse BUT I do not 'try" to get him to "understand" my needs. I don't think that he can.
   Somehow, I have seen that I am not the "biggest prize" in the world ,either. I used to see him as the 'bad" one and me as the "good "one. I see that I was very damaged by my N mother. I ,OVERLY. wanted someone to take care of me( mother me) . That got "old" for him. My main desire in life was to be mothered. I was not a full partner, either.
   When I had kids, I really tried to be a good mother. He was very wrong, at that time, b/c I was pulling my side of the relationship. However, I can see where I was not the "best deal "in town , either. It helps me to have more compassion for him.
    When I heal, it will become clear what, if anything, to do about the marriage       Love     Ami

[CB123]

Bravo, Authentic!

Excellent, excellent letter.  Thank you for sharing it.  It really is the bottom line--in all the things we write about what we say to our N-bf's, sisters, mothers, children, husbands, etc., the bottom line is that their behavior is telling us something about who they are.  The real question is not how to make them change, but how we want to change in response to it.  This letter is incredible.

Thank you for sharing it.

CB

[changing]

Ami and Authentic-

Thank you for your thoughtful replies. There is certainly great truth in what both of you expressed. My NH was unravelling- a brilliant, intelligent, educated, funny, attractive man, becoming ever more secretive , mean, and scary, adamantly blaming me for everything, even things he did many years prior to our meeting! He lost his excellent job (though I had helped him prepare for the company "transition" and he won one of the few coveted spots after reorganization, he had to commute, etc, and couldn't /wouldn't do what it took to keep up with the faster pace.) I tried to economize, helped him with sick time,disability, lawsuit, an enormous amount of medical and psych treatment, etc., and he got worse and worse...In the end he really loved his porno and the thought of money, etc. and he hated me-I only got in the way. I wish that I had known about the porno, his mother, etc, I would never had married NH. You are right that one cannot expect someone else to change- when I realized what NH was about, I felt obligated to try to help him because of the abuse in his past that was revealed, but when he let me know that he wanted to continue in his self-destructive conduct, and he wanted me to continue in his distorted idea of a marriage, trying to use fear and force, I wanted OUT- I wish that he had been honest with me, and that I had been more insightful.
The Robin Norwood information seemed correct regarding the need for acceptance- however, when a man lies about himself, his addiction to drugs, need for porno, obsession for other women, lack of attraction to women and true attraction to other men, etc., all of the things listed by Norwood, seem to be almost always hidden. Very few men who desire men are honest when they marry women, and the same goes for the other behaviors. When a man represents himself in one way, and is actually another, there is naturally an effort by the spouse to "fix" things ( in those areas that seem possible). I will certainly be on the lookout for more hidden behaviors next time. No more Ns for me!
I still feel guilty and confused at times, NH seems so lost and damaged by his childhood. But he is doing what he wants to do, and has no concern about destroying me, and even though he is gone still tries to bully me to pay for things, and not reveal what is really going on so his lawsuit is not compromised, etc. I am happy that he revealed himself, I can "bless and release" him, and I love my freedom and the happy peace that I enjoy.

Hugs to you,

Changing

[Bella_French]

Laura, I remembered this letter and thought it fit your situation perfectly.  Other than the name change the author could have been speaking directly to you.


Dear Mikki,

Okay, we won't analyze everything, but some of what you've written warrants our attention.

First, let's look at what is going on between you and your boyfriend.

Your letter poses a way of dealing with a partner's unacceptable behavior that is very common but . . .

in my opinion, not very productive.

You state that your boyfriend, in trying to "settle some issues" behaved in a way that shocked and hurt you.

You said you finally dealt with that by setting some limits regarding what you feel would be acceptable behavior for him.

In other words, you told him what you would and would not put up with and now you expect him to tailor his behavior accordingly.

If his behavior shocked you, it is because it violate your value system. . .

you are both adults, each with your own value

systems well developed and operating in your lives.

What your boyfriend did violated YOUR value system but not HIS.  Otherwise YOU wouldn't be putting limits on what HE is allowed to do. 

He would be setting limits in light of his own values.

This is not nit-picking on my part, Mikki. 

You need to recognize that this man is telling you something important about who he is

and how he approaches life.

It is both naive and presumptuous for you to think that you belong up at the blackboard

instructing him that if he wants a relationships with you

he should do A and not do B.

He is being himself

and he will inevitably continue to be himself.

Your job is to decide if you can comfortably accept who he is

and the way he approaches the problem of living.

We are happiest being with the people we can accept exactly as they are.

When we expect them to change for our sake, we are not respecting them nor are we taking care of ourselves.

Chances are high that he will shock and hurt you again through his behavior,

except that you will have less right to be shocked or even surprised

because you already know that the capactiy for this behavior exists in him.

I've worked with women who expected their partners to:

stop seeing other women,

or being sexually attracted to men,

or using drugs,

or drinking,

or gambling,

or using pornography

or hitting them

or criticizing them

or avoiding them through work . . .

on and on.

These men were not able to stop in order to please these women, not over time.

They might change their behavior for a while in order to keep peace

but they were not able to do so permanently.

People are not really able to permanently change for the sake of another person.

They can put the brakes on for a while or

they can allow that other person to put the brakes on them for a while

but all of this is temporary.

THE BEHAVIOR will eventually resume

because the person who makes changes in order to please or placate someone is

unchanged underneath.


I hope you can say to yourself: 

THIS MAN IS CAPABLE OF DOING THIS THING WHICH SHOCKS ME. 

CAN I FACE THE FACT AND LIVE COMFORTABLY WITH IT?

 Because although I have a right to tell him how his behavior makes me feel,

I have no right to expect or demand that he change for my sake. 

In fact, even to tell him more than once how I feel about his behavior

becomes an implicit demand that he change. 

My job, after communicating my feelings once, is to decide how I will handle my feelings concerning what he does. 

I may tell him of my decision but again, only to inform him,

not to bring pressure on him to change. 

Otherwise, I will probably end up making threats I'm not  prepared to carry out.

All of this is not easy to do, Mikki,

but it is a way of handling your situation that can possibly save you many years of anger, pain and recrimination.

The factor that would keep you from viewing your situation with him in this way is SELF-WILL." ~
Excerpted from Letter from Woman Who Love Too Much by Robin Norwood, pgs 196-198.  http://www.amazon.com/Women-Who-Love-Too-Much/dp/0671733419

I do not entirely agree with Robin Norwoods advice (I once owned that book and accepted his word as gospel, lol) There is a certain logic to his advice, but it also seems to be suggesting that we shouldn't set any boundaries in our relationships other than to timidly state our feelings , because we have no hope of changing a man's behavior (or that he will just go back to the old behavior eventually)

 I agree that we cannot easily change a man's `essense'  or his most important`values' , but behavior is something that people modify all the time in order to adapt to living (and working) with people. I see it as a natural and important part of all close relationships.

I think if something is very important to a woman in a  relationship, such protecting herself and her children from the effects of porn, she has every right to ask that her husband to stop that behaviour * because it effects her life in a fundermental way , not just his*. The same goes with cheating (the other example Mr Norwood used). I feel that this is another example where the mans behavior adversely affects other people (it could kill them if they caught Aids!) , and they have a right to ask him to modify his behaviour.

I think what Mr Norwood has uncovered in his book is a lot of really stupid and outlandish ways to coerce another person into modifying their behaviour, such as having tantrums, bullying, emotional manipulation, and ultimatums. Quite correctly, he has docmented that most the time, these techniques are unseccessful.

But to suggest that women do not have any right to want their man adapt as much as she adapts in a relationship, is wrong IMO. Its just a matter of `how' we choose to go about this.











 



 

[Bella_French]

Authentic, I do `sort of' agree, and you brought up some points i totally agree with, such as the problems with dealing with addicts, who have a real problem with behaviour modification.

Addiction is another matter. And I totally agree that its very difficult for any addict to change their behaviour even when they want to, let alone when someone else wants them to. That expectation is unrealistic (although if you follow forums dealing with addictions closely, you will notice that some couples do beat problems with certain addictions together. Its just not very easy).

Where I disagree is that I don't think that `leaving the relationship' is the *only* way to get any of your needs met in a relationship, when they are things about your partner's behaviour that affect your wellbeing. I do think that people have a right to ask someone to change their behavior if it is affecting them (and they ahvea  right to say `no')  The concept of `like it or leave it' is a little simplistic to me, and ignores other important options, such as negotiation and mutually workable compromises.

Thanks for discussing this with me authentic; I am enjoying hearing your thoughts and talking about this with you.

X Bella