Voicelessness and Emotional Survival Message Board
Voicelessness and Emotional Survival => Voicelessness and Emotional Survival Message Board => Topic started by: Dr. Richard Grossman on September 18, 2007, 01:27:45 PM
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Hi everybody,
Some thoughts about moderating this board. Please forgive the mechanical tone and format of this post—this is my holiday week, and I still have my annual holiday talk to write…
1) My preference is to stay in the background as much as possible. Because this is a voicelessness board, it is my wish that people say as much as possible unimpeded by rules, censorship, etc. Most people on the board have been exceptionally respectful.
2) Establishing boundaries is an important part of the board for each and every member. But beware—sometimes we can learn from the people we most don’t want to hear from.
3) Could I make the board safer for some people—or create a second safe board? Perhaps, but on the board I have seen people who believe themselves to be kind and empathic be rude and demeaning without their knowing it. And I have also seen people be accused of being rude, demeaning, and non-validating when they simply disagreed or were not supportive of a particular position. This will happen on a safe board, just as it would on the regular board. On a “voicelessness” board where the most sensitive feelings are shared, people are going to get hurt, and unfortunately, leave. I am always sad about that. The safest board is one where people don’t share their sensitive, vulnerable feelings.
4) That said, over the years, I have not permitted contentless taunting. In these situations, I have deleted posts with a note of explanation. Also, if a person asks to be left alone, I have allowed them that right.
5) And then, there is the question of resources (thanks, Mud). The board began in 1999 as a place for a few people to talk about voicelessness and my thoughts about it. Last year alone there were approximately 35,000 posts and 1.75 million page views. Those numbers are still growing rapidly. Yesterday, for example, there were 387 posts and over 16000 page views. On the other side of this explosion of activity is---me. The board adds meaning to my life, and I hope to yours. But already, one third of my professional life is devoted to managing it…
Best,
Richard
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Thank you so much, Dr. Grossman.
I love this board just the way it is and I agree wiith you that most of the people here try very hard to be respectful.
I've been on so-called Christian boards where the degree of rudeness prohibited my expression of anything, because it was so intimidating to me. This has been the only place where I felt encouraged to learn to express... not just to spew whatever was on my mind, but to be able to communicate well for the sake of everyone involved, not only myself.
I feel safer just having read this post of yours. Other times, when I get to feeling shaky, I'll go back and read Little Voices or another of your essays and remind myself... it's okay, this man understands what it's like. So... just thanks, for being here.
And a blessed Yom Kippur to you...
Carolyn
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Dear Dr. Grossman-
I want to thank you for creating and maintaining this board- it has been an immeasurable help to me in a time of crisis. I would also like to thank you for this post, and say that I agree completely with your determinations and insights. Have a blessed Yom Kippur.
Thank you,
Changing
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After much consideration, I have determined that, overall, this board is a really good thing. Thank you, Dr. G, for creating it and for helping me to better understand your vision behind it. I have grown in my participation. I have learned that I can make myself safer and this is a great place to explore and practice. I am learning to gain some autonomy that way.
Poppyseed
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Hi Dr. G,
I like the board the way it is.
Thank you for your dedication and diligence on our behalf.
Edit in: Those are exciting statistics.
Happy Holidays. :oops:
Would love to hear your speech.
tt
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I appreciate the work you do, Dr Grossman. It's a huge achievement to have a forum this big and this busy.
I don't think that hardly anyone on the discussion thread about moderating (last night - the one that eventually was pulled) wanted moderation. We all know what voicelessness is, so we don't want any more if it can be avoided. But sensitive oversight of what goes on might end up being necessary, if people who are hurting are not to leave, sometimes faster than others are joining. They leave hurt and confused, and, with hardly a blip, the forum carries on just the same.
I don't know what the answer is, but it keeps happening just the same. Different people. Same scenario.
I have learnt a lot here, from some very special people.
But I have also been hurt here, by some very sick people.
Janet
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Thank you Dr. G.
This Board does give us a chance to interact and to (try to) make adult choices and decisions to run by the others. I think no one ought to be ridiculed for perhaps a wrong choice, when asking for input, that is disagreed with by the others.
Thank you for all the time to take from your busy life to work re the board.
Izzy
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Thank you Dr. Grossman for taking the time to share your reasoning, and also for the time and effort you invest to provide this space. It has been a very pivotal and often painful experience for me to read here, much less participate, and has thus far been the place I have begun to find the growth I have been seeking for a long time. As changing said - I completely agree with your determinations and insights and have a lot of respect for what your careful, measure, gentle approach says about you as a professional and a person.
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On the other side of this explosion of activity is---me.
How about you and a tip jar? At the very least least it might help defray the costs of maintaining the site and being voluntary nobody could squawk about it. It could also provide a psychological benefit to those of us with guilty consciences for taking up so much of your time.
mud
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On the other side of this explosion of activity is---me.
How about you and a tip jar? At the very least least it might help defray the costs of maintaining the site and being voluntary nobody could squawk about it. It could also provide a psychological benefit to those of us with guilty consciences for taking up so much of your time.
mud
I second that motion.
Put it on the grand in the lounge?
Carolyn
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Dear Dr.G,
You have given me so much by helping me find my voice. There are no words to thank you for that priceless gift. I agree with Mud,it would be my honor to contribute . Ami
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Dr G
I had to sit and think a while about how to word this...i do appreciate this place. It was the second place i came, after Sam Vaknin's site, when I first learned about NPD.
I am grateful that, not only did you give ME a voice again through this forum, but even those who hurt me, came here and were able to have a voice. i know people don't understand why I almost seem to be "defending" my accusers, but please realize, these people are people I came to know and love. i got to know their families and love them too. We made plans, hopes, dreams together. They need to have a place to speak freely too, as that was taken from them very long ago.
Dr G, thank you for letting ALL people talk freely and openly, but also for being available to discuss things with us as we need you.
Blessya and yes, Happy Yom Kippur
~Laura (reallyME)
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Dear Richard,
Thanks for writing; its nice to hear from you:)
I prefer this site unmoderated site myself, and its one of the things I like about this forum. I also think that it `fits' with the theme of overcoming voicelessness.
bella
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I just want to say thank you for the board, Dr. Grossman. I think it works tremendously.
R/Beth
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Hi Dr. Grossman,
Thank you for this wonderful board. It has been so supportive and inspiring for me.
I don't think we need rules. I like the way the board weathers storms. If there is a toxic post, it is often ignored. With all the people out there it is amazing that it keeps going in such a kind and affirming way. Without being smarmy.
Conflict is inevitable. No use freaking out about it.
Sea storm
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Thank you for this board, Dr. Grossman. I can't imagine how much healing and growth you have witnessed over the years. I can imagine that it takes an enormous amount of your time, but I hope that you are cheered by our thanks...
Much love
CB
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Agreed! This board has brought me the most healing-more than books, counseling etc. Thanks for letting us deal with all the stuff and only stepping in when absolutely needed!
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I'd like to thank Dr. Grossman for weighing in on the subject of board moderation.
As it was I who brought it up, I feel it appropriate to respond.
There are some really special people here. People who are kind supportive and loving -- and then there are others.
Thank you Dr. Grossman, for echoing my concerns:
Could I make the board safer for some people—or create a second safe board? Perhaps, but on the board I have seen people who believe themselves to be kind and empathic be rude and demeaning without their knowing it. And I have also seen people be accused of being rude, demeaning, and non-validating when they simply disagreed or were not supportive of a particular position.
While I might differ in my opinion as to whether the people who behave in a rude and demeaning manner towards others here KNOW what they're doing -- that is neither here nor there.
The question I asked was: Can we work together to make this place a safer place for those who are sometimes bullied and hurt by the behaviors of others.
This question was only addressed by a few people but it seemed, IMO, the need to say that this place is great and nothing bad happens here took precedence over addressing a very real concern that even Dr. Grossman can see.
Curiously, at the same time there was another thread running which showed very clearly that bad things DO happen here -- the PM message to Beth.
I would think that this would have given us, together as a group, pause and we would have *sat* down together, discussed the issue and tried to come up with solutions -- I can't say this word enough: Together.
What happened was very different.
I liken this board to village that sacrifices a young virgin every month of so to insure peace and prosperity!
At times people respond (as I watch in horror) at another's expression of their hurt and pain and then advise them to move on, forget it, ignore it and basically to stop complaining -- this is life. Conflict is inevitable.
Well, no one believes that more than I. But the purpose of conflict is to RESOLVE it and heal.
At least that is my opinion.
I'd like to thank everyone here who took the time out to suspend w/ judgments and reach out to me w/ their hearts.
I did not want to fail to acknowledge what a risk that is -- especially here.
Iphi wrote a beautiful message to me and I see that is now gone.
Iphi, it was beautiful. I hold the place you create for me in my mind as a place of refuge, just as you intended. I wish you would have left the message on line.
This is my opinion. I don't write to debate w/ anyone or to invite anyone to prove me wrong.
I don't say it because I'm absolutely certain that I'm right -- Anything I write or wrote here was to do one thing: INSPIRE THOUGHT and CONVERSATION.
I wrote it because it was how I felt.
This is how I feel.
Feelings are not good or bad, as Sally so eloquently expressed, they just are.
What they need to be, IMO, is heard and acknowledged, not proved wrong or manipulated -- that is how I felt here.
Being told I shouldn't be angry or hurt or concern -- it's invalidating -- it makes a person feel crazy because after all they are ANGRY and HURT.
You just can't should away feelings.
IMO, feelings have to be understood -- both from the person feeling them and the one on the other end, the witness, to validate, support and reflect back.
"I see you feel angry for not being heard, you are hurt that you are being ignored." How powerful that sentence is and what a blessing it would have been to me.
But only a few were able to give me that -- what I viewed to be a small request, but must have been so hard for others.
I understand. I had the same problem w/ my daughter. She reached out to me in love and I did not trust her. I did not trust myself to open up to her because when I opened up to my own mother she hurt me. I view her request for love as an attempt to manipulate and control me -- I would not give it to her.
So you see everyone who hates me -- I do understand.
Beth, thank you for writing me a personal message. I felt your response to me was cold originally because I was looking for a soft place to fall, for someone to acknowledge my feelings -- to meet me where I was.
I understand how difficult that is for some people so it is important for me to recognize the effort.
Beth you said that words can't heart you.
Beth, words DO HURT and they CAN HURT, terribly.
Thirty years later, I still have the voice of my mother in my head, telling me God awful things that I believe -- they were just words to her, but to me, they described who I was.
Whenever I see a person treated rudely or demeaned here, and then it is ignored or worse made fun of -- that is a huge trigger for me, because w/ four sisters and six brothers, that is how I was treated.
When I bring this up and it is once again ignored, or minimized I am triggered even more, because that is what was done to me -- my pain was ignored.
When I am blamed and attacked -- instead of invited to explain and be understood, I am triggered because that is what was done to me, I was blamed and attacked for daring to say I HURT.
It is not a crime, to hurt.
It is why we are all here, because we hurt.
It is not a crime to talk about making things better.
Isn't that why we're all here -- to make things better?
Kelly quoted Rodney King in her thread, and asked us: Why Can't We Get Along.
Unless we're going to sprinkle Pixie Dust over this board and the world, we can never "get along" unless we address the ones who are in pain amongst us.
Or the members of the board can continue to watch people who come here already terribly hurt, turn away even more hurt, and then pretend that hasn't happened by saying:
THIS IS A GREAT PLACE, FINE JUST THE WAY IT IS.
For me this was not true and I echo the sentiments of not one, not two, not three or four but MANY others.
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I think what Authentic is saying (and I see it too,now),is that we have N dynamics going on --on a board that is supposed to be about healing from N's.
It is subtle. You have to see it with your heart--just as you have to see N's --with your heart.
When we get abused ,our heart shuts down. That is why we cannot see N dynamics WITH our heart. THEN, we are set up to be used by N's.
THIS is what I saw yesterday. Maybe,it took the shock of Authentic leaving for me to see it. To me, she was as real as any friend in real life. Maybe that makes me "weird" or strange .but that is how I feel.
It was a shock to me.
Now,I get it. We have N dynamics on the board. Maybe, we have actual N's on the board, which is a board about "healing from N's".Stranger things have happened in life.
For me, I 'see" with my new eyes.I "see" N dynamics on the board. I see that someone CAN be abused on the board and no one will help them if they are not in the "group" .If they are in the "group', the "group" will help them. .Most people will do nothing
In N dynamics, there are certain "rules". You cannot "see " certain behaviors or you are ostracized.
People can make fun of you and then just say,"Only kidding.' You are supposed to go against your gut which tells you that they were NOT only kidding.I guess that this is gaslighting
You are treated badly. You know it and feel it,.but you are talked around the point until you doubt your reality. This is N behavior.
I simply, want to SEE life with my own two eyes. That is my goal. That is my mission and my passion. If I have to stand up ,against the crowd,in order to see,I will do it. If I don't,I won't.
I am getting back my original" voice,. I was always a strong person before my M stole my identity from me.
i stood up for what I believed. I had a lot of friends.I was social , I had many qualities that I liked. I am getting my voice back and with it,I am getting these original qualities back.
I have to say what I see. It is not important to me if others see it or agree. I just can't lie b/c then I am in an N system again.
I see what Authentic means. She is leaving.I am staying. I am staying b/c I can still heal. here. The N dynamics are 20%. The good dynamics are 80%. That is how I see it.
This is a family to me. I wish to function within it. I just have to see and to fell what is true.
Love Ami
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Authentic I am glad you saw my message. After I wrote it, I was afraid you would interpret it in a negative way that I did not mean and thought maybe I should delete it and just give spaciousness and room for you in my consciousness. I am so glad you received it and remember - you've got the key.
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Dr. G,
I was wondering if I could ask you a question. What is your take on the PM that Gratitude28 received recently? I am a little unearthed by it. It crosses the line for me. I am wondering what you feel about it or what action you feel a person should take when this happens.
Poppy
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I basically understand where authentic and Ami are coming from.
I was told when certain people visited the board, that I should be quiet. Since I decided to speak my own mind, I was told that I should have just been quiet and not said anything, but since i did, there was nothing they could do. In other words, the message i got was, 'if you had shut up like I suggested, I would have stood by you, but since you decided to speak up, the other person seems more convincing to me and I'm jumping on their side instead. what an odd thing to me. So, in the end, I backed out of the whole thing and wished peace upon my adversary and then changed topic.
oh well. I did what I felt was best.
~Laura
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Dear Besee-
Sometimes one can make choices and see events without any sort of major psychodrama being played out as the causative factor. I don't think that my ideas or choices can be necessarily characterized as always stemming from pathology or past hurts or present triggers. Sometimes a skunk is a skunk. (We had one in my area recently).
Love,
Changing
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Dear Besee,
I've recognized some of that going on in my experiences here on the board last year, but this round of hoopla's been different.
I'm feel like Changing expressed... sometimes it just is what it is, plain as day. And when it comes 'round again, there's no need for all those psycho-triggering-device-like-mechanistic-whatevers.... it just plain stinks.
Love,
Carolyn
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I think that sometimes when someone who is hurting is being ignored on the forum, it is easy to say 'Oh, that's FOO stuff - you are 'letting' yourself be triggered' as a way of side-stepping the issue and refusing to deal with it. I think that was how Authentic felt - she was being told it was FOO stuff, and that she should let it go, and she kept saying 'No, it's not, this needs to be talked about', and she didn't get heard.
Or rather, she got heard all right, but she got scapegoated for speaking up until she left in frustration.
Janet
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I think a lot of people have gotton scapegoated. A lot of people haven't been heard and understood completely. And I think there are a lot of people who don't choose to communicate their feelings in bold and loud ways. Seems like to me that we all need to take a little personal responsibility for how we behave when we feel threatened or deminished or unheard. Acting....not reacting. Sometimes I think the answer to this problem is staring us in the face. We are all responsible for our own feelings and for getting our needs met. We can't force this board to do it for us. It feels, in these fights, like others are scapegoated or ignored or labeled or pushed hard when they don't fit in our "box". So we argue, prove our point, go to the mattresses to be heard! Like being heard is the only important thing! And we find fault and we PM each other and whatever else to make ourselves feel better. All I can say, is anybody can find fault. Anybody can criticize. It takes no special talent. But what would it be like if we could behave in more peaceful ways. Wouldn't we find more understanding? Wouldn't we lift other? Leave them better than we found them? Grow within ourselves to more of a strength in our own ability to take responsibility. I am not saying I know what the answers are. But there are more casualties than one here on the board. I think a little less fight and a little more kind would go a long way. We can all be heard. We can all find a friend. And on some things we won't be understood or nutured or received in the way we want. We can't control it. So why do we try so hard to make others behave the way we want? Maybe it is good practice in dealing with difficult people. But there is a line where it becomes destructive to what is so valueable about this place.
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I know that I never told Authentic that she was reacting to FOO stuff, etc., and I "chimed in" as she requested about my own thoughts regarding the need for a designated Moderator, answered her poll, etc( I said I didn't want one). I believe that I listened, heard and responded fairly and courteously. Not everyone had time perhaps, but I don't think that everyone must respond to every post, or must agree with every suggestion, or somehow make everything all right for everyone at all times, or professionally manage everyone's pain. Much as I wish we could, we cannot fix every illness and placate everyone- this notion is in itself pathological.
If this is the expectation, then I will gladly absent myself, and I will not blame anyone, as I am here as a participant and friend only, not as a professional obligation to answer all calls, etc. I am not qualified to do that-I am not a professional in this area, I try to understand and support with common sense and love only. I think any expectation above this may be unreasonable and perhaps damaging to any person who in reliance upon it is not seeking the capable help needed that is elsewhere. I also think what we do here is worthy and healing in itself and should not be damaged or hindered because it is not all things to all people.
My agreement with Dr. Grossman on the board moderation issue, and my lack of agreement with every stance that others may take, is neither harmful to anyone here, nor invalidating . I want to help as I can, but some things are beyond my capacity and there may be instances where no amount of layperson's support is sufficient, outside measures are needed (I know many of my issues require 3d professional help).
Love to all,
Changing
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Changing,
I know you have supported people in a very loving way - you've done that with me, and I appreciate it. When people offer what they can in a caring way - as you do - it is gratefully received, and that is often all that someone needs. But when they say let's all talk about how the forum can be made safer for the people who DON'T get that kind of response that you give, and they get told 'just deal with it', or they get ignored, then we get to the stage that we are here...trying to talk about whether or not we need a moderator on the forum.
Like you, I don't want a moderator, either.
Disagreeing with someone's point of view is fine, when it's done with consideration, and not in a back-biting kind of way. But when people pretend that it doesn't ever happen here, and that everything's rosy, that's just dishonest, IMO. I know you don't do that, Changing, but do you agree that that happens? No-one has time to respond to every post, or even read every post, but to reply in a courteous way when they DO bother, would be a good start, and that sometimes doesn't happen. When it gets out of hand, that is when the idea of a moderator seems like a good one.
Janet
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I feel that the problem with introducing the role of `moderator' (ie parent figure) into the dynamics of a forum such as this one, is that while it may solve some problems, I can see it creating a lot of new problems too.
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Bella,
Yes, very true. On the thread on Monday that Authentic started (I don't hink you got to read it before she pulled it in the evening, just before she left?), hardly anyone WANTED a moderator. Even Authentic didn't. But she wanted a discussion about what could be done instead.
Janet
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Dear Janet, Thanks so much for letting me know. I seem to have missed all of the recent conflicts (I'm in the wrong time zone!!!).
X bella
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My Dear Janet-
You have always been wonderful to me, and so are the perfect person to initiate this discussion.There must be some sort of reality check here. The vile PM that was sent to another person here certainly warranted a response on my part, and I did what I could in response and defense of the injured party. The recipient of the hate mail showed grace and evolvement, and chose to respond with great tact and kindness. If the situation arises again, I will respond in support in turn.
There was also a great deal of tsouris regarding expectations of others on the board. As I can best understand it, in one instance a person interacted with persons who had been identified as having caused them hurt in the past and had somehow found this board. This person indicated that others here might interact with these people from the past as well (I would not). I cannot fault anyone here in doing so, and can only urge honesty in telling others not to violate one's safe space if that is the case, and requesting assistance in their removal/containment if that help is needed as well. Sometimes we cannot take care of those who mean to hurt us, and we must keep them at bay, getting help if needed. (i.e. NH Bagworm in my case)
In addition, a poll was taken and individual thoughts were requested. As the poll numbers came in a great deal of disappointment was expressed by the initiator of the poll regarding the responses , and I later read charges about hurt and pain inflicted upon the poll-taker in unconscionable posts, but I cannot recall any instances of heinous posts there- the thread is down so I cannot reread it in order to find any that I may have missed. Disagreement is not invalidation or abuse.It seemed that no amount of reiterating support for the person, rather than the idea promulgated, was sufficient, and instead of accepting the results, differing responses were attacked and invalidated as character flaws, as not caring about the hurting people, as some sort of kitchen -sink pseudo psychological response, etc. I do care about the pain of others, and yet my vote was questioned and I was attacked for it. If it is a vote, then my vote should be respected as well as the vote of the poll-taker. Let us have no more of this nonsense. We (I) need freedom of expression here. I am sorry if another may feel extreme pain due to their perception of my disagreement as a personal disappointment- perhaps an unbiased outside source might help in sorting this out for them. I did all that I could, other than capitulate.
I am not making judgements regarding individual perceptions, perceived pain or the need for help, as these are all subjective to the individual. We can only do so much here- if NH Bagworm comes to this board, I will not feel safe- no Moderator can change that- NH must be blocked completely from access (hard to do I think). I would ask that his posts be removed , etc. If not , and I remain and invite others to interact with him, about me, I will surely be damaged!!!I cannot, however, blame the board if I do not give the required information, only to blame later- that would be dishonest.
Similarly, if I take a poll, and the tally disagrees with me, and I continue to insist my aims are correct repeatedly, getting into discussions where I endeavor to prove my point and invalidate the opposition rather than letting poll results freely speak for themselves, I can expect that American, Canadian, Australian and British voters, who are used to an unhampered polling place, may react rather firmly by requesting that their votes be respected and not questioned or characterized with ad hominem attacks such as all who do not agree with me do not care about damaging people, and suchlike. A poll is quite different from a thread.I would understand that they would find this insulting and coercive.
I did not respond before specifically to this incident, but only at your behest. I hope that all can work together in harmony, albeit imperfectly- different notes and rhythms, to the same end. I want to thank everyone on the board for their kindness to me and assure everyone that I want the best for them as well.
Love,
Changing
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I love those big words you use, Changing..."behest" how kewl ;)
I want to again state that I did not invite board members to interract with both people from my past who came here...only with the first one. "Mary" was always a very fair person in my life as much as she knew how to be. I expected that of her even as she came to this board which I invited her to. She was angry and expressed her anger at me as was her right and her voice. THe next person to come along however, handled things in typical fashion. I don't recall really saying whether or not any of you should correspond to her on here. I do know that I prayed/wished her and her family well and assured her that I was ending all contact, since I now heard her boundaries of N/C loud and clear at last.
Do i like it? no. My heart is always to rejoin with people, to reexperience a similar situation and to have it be successful the next time around, thus healing the original wound of the past. If the other party chooses not to do so, I have learned that to not honor their decision, is folly.
~reallyME
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Disagreement is not invalidation or abuse
Changing, this is so true, and so difficult for victims of childhood intellectual abuse to come to terms with. I think we have some members who were wounded in this way as children; its so hard for them to hear other opinions without being triggered and feeling attacked, but also hard for others who need to have a unique voice without walking on eggshells. I wonder what the best solution to this problem could be? Awareness? Being gentle with one another's triggers? I'm not sure.
X Bella
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Hi ReallyMe-
I am sorry that I didn't understand the whole thing (OK to talk to #1person but not #2). I didn't want to interact with either, as my concern and interest is with you, which is why I asked if you wanted me to ignore either of them. I do not like you being subjected to hurt here.
Love,
Changing
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I was one of the people who told Authentic that it was "just" FOO stuff. I 'knew" that some "bad" dynamics were going on,but I thought that you would find that anywhere.
You do find "bad' dynamics most places -BUT- the thing is that you have to be able to TALK about them with out being scapegoated.. That was what Authentic was saying and I could not hear her until she left and I had a "shock"
We lost a great board member. I was as much at fault as anyone. Now, I see what she meant. the problem was not that the FOO dynamics were here. The problem was that no one would talk about the "elephant in the living room" The elephant is that there are some N's here who are making some N rules.
It is so subtle. That is why I could not see it
.However, with N's, the one thing that they are is subtle. That is why we got so abused in the first place.If N's wore a glaring banner that said, I am an N "-no one would get abused by them.May God give His Grace to the Board so that we can see the truth and it will make us free .
Love Ami
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Hi Bella-
I believe that I was extremely courteous and only did as I was asked, voted in the poll, "chimed in", etc, and did all that I could to assuage any hurt that was expressed in reaction to the majority difference of opinion. I certainly felt no malice and expressed none, walked on eggshells quite glady, and tried to express support and friendship in an extremely gentle fashion,to no avail.
Sometimes there are problems that require 3d help, such as is the case of many of my issues, in order to resolve. We cannot make everything right for everyone here, cannot make everyone happy all of the time, I am not sure that that is this purpose, really. This board provides loving support of everyone to get what they need to function and heal, despite their many traumas and the hurt that was caused, even if the another sort of assistance is to be found elsewhere as well. It would be a mistake to think that we are capable of causing and alleviating all issues for everyone, and a great cruelty to pretend that we can. We can bring understanding, love and friendship- these are not always enough, and this is not a failure.
Love,
Changing
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Very strong and insightful message, Changing! I agree with you.
Love, Beth
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I guess that Changing with her integrity and decency makes a good point. When everyone has said their truth. They each have to decide if the board is a good vehicle to take them to healing. Does the good(in their opinion) outweigh the bad(in their opinion)? If the answer is "yes". They stay. If it is no, they leave.
Each makes his choice. I guess that each board member has to learn to have his own integrity. This was not a lesson that we learned in our N home.
Each one has to find his true voice--not another lesson we learned. Each one has to try to build the values that he finds important.
Changing, I could hear what you are saying . .Thank you , Ami
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Changing,
I think you have it explained it very eloquently, and carefully. The situation with ReallyMe was a complicated one, and several people were unsure what to do. Asking was a good way to proceed. Some didn't do that.
With other circumstances, though, other people seem to have been causing pain knowing they are doing it. They continue until Dr G has to step in, when asked, to get them to stop.
It is this that Authentic was trying to get discussed, mainly. The fact that pain is sometimes caused knowingly, deliberately, and subtly. When others still say 'get over it' or 'ignore it', that's when people leave.
And that's such a pity.
I, too, have had more 'Aha!' moments here than anywhere else, and some of the people here have been such an inspiration to me.
Harmony here would be lovely, but unlikely, I think.
Janet
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I agree with Janets point that some here cause pain knowingly and the pretend that they did not do anything.Moreover,it was YOUR fault for even noticing.
All that is true and I agree 100%. For now, the good simply outweighs the bad. for me. That is how I see it.
Love Ami
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Dear Changing, I'm so sorry to hear that you went through that. Hugs to you!
Janet and Ami, I think you raise very good points.
I have learned a lot from forum communities, and one of them is that rocky relationships can change over time and it is an extremely rewarding experience when it does. I remember one girl in a particular (on another forum, which was moderated) who used to lash out at me and send me abusive PM's every time I challenged her denial. It didn't matter how gently or unintentional this was; her walls of denial were huge, and she hated me. She had a knack for bullying too, and had befriended the moderator (beware!) , who consequently never protected me from the abuse. She was popular and outspoken, and I really wanted to leave that community.
But I got the sense that she was on path of healing, and I didn't hate her back. I quite liked her, actually. She blossomed in the three years I knew her. She became quite humble, and she wrote the most beautiful letter to me once, apologising for her immaturity and rudeness, and she said that she hoped that I could see her growth, and forgive her past. It was really one of the most special moments I've experienced in recent years. If I'd left, I would not have experienced that.
Mind you, I've met real dummies online too...the kind obtuse bullies who never grow and behave like a bulldozer. Its best to use `ignore' with these people....they stop existing for you. It really works too!
I don't know if any of this helps, but this worked for me.
X Bella
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Hi Ami-
I agree with you. This Board is filled with wonderful people who have done a great deal for me and I am thankful.
Love,
Changing
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Dear Bella,
You kind of said it all. Changing-- I respect you so much that I could" hear "your voice .
Love Ami
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I have a suggestion with regard to those posts that one feels are deliberately to cause pain. I think that you cannot afford to wait for the river to flow on past and then refer back to such a post in a general way because then how can you address the issue in general?
It is best if it is addressed specifically and in the as close to the present moment as possible on a message board.
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Thank you Dr. Grossman. I find your five points to be succinct and clear. I certainly concede that there are problems that arise in the current format but I complete accept the points that you make.
I have searched the internet and not found another forum that comes close to providing the type of community and comfort that I find here. It's not that I have only experienced support and encouragement - far from it and I have witnessed others experience significantly painful experiences here and I am deeply sorry for that. It is not OK. But I find that your five points provide a clear and rational explanation about why this forum will remain moderatorless. Perhaps most remarkable point you make is "But already, one third of my professional life is devoted to managing it…"
My heavens!! What an extraordinary devotion. All I can say is that I am personally, profoundly thankful that you find value in this extraordinary offering. I am also thankful that this place (warts and all) has been such a significant gift to me and I have great sorrow that for some (including my dear friend Authentic) the pain has been too great.
Sincerely - Gaining Strength
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Dr. Grossman-
Gaining Strength has reminded me of an unfortunate lack of expression of appreciation on my part.Your generosity and compassion have been a great mitzvah to us here. I have escaped a terrible situation with your help through this board, and I am forever grateful.
I wish you and your loved ones a meaningful Yom Kippur.
Changing
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I love those big words you use, Changing..."behest" how kewl ;)
I want to again state that I did not invite board members to interract with both people from my past who came here...only with the first one. "Mary" was always a very fair person in my life as much as she knew how to be. I expected that of her even as she came to this board which I invited her to. She was angry and expressed her anger at me as was her right and her voice. THe next person to come along however, handled things in typical fashion. I don't recall really saying whether or not any of you should correspond to her on here. I do know that I prayed/wished her and her family well and assured her that I was ending all contact, since I now heard her boundaries of N/C loud and clear at last.
Do i like it? no. My heart is always to rejoin with people, to reexperience a similar situation and to have it be successful the next time around, thus healing the original wound of the past. If the other party chooses not to do so, I have learned that to not honor their decision, is folly.
~reallyME
Dear Laura,
I want to apologize to you directly, because I didn't understand any of this when it first happened. I thought that Dove was Kay, so I never even read her posts (for that very reason), but then I thought she'd decided to come clean and post as Jodi and you must be welcoming her appearance here on the board, since her thread got moved over here for comment... etc, etc...
and I was definitely all mixed up about the whole thing.
I'm sorry. I should have just asked you directly. Got tangled up in my own past voicelessness and determined not to avoid another difficult situation.
Please forgive my emotional-stupidity.
I'm so glad for you that you've decided to release these people to their own boundaries and lives.. and also very glad you're back.
I also wish that other members would mind their own business and not pre-judge me or my motives for what I post, because that is nothing but controlling and codependent behavior, imo. If you don't like me, fine, but you should also at least acknowledge that you don't know my heart or mind simply because you've disliked something I've said here. I just think that if each of us simply spoke for ourselves instead of buttin into other peoples' business and defending causes which are not our own, there'd be alot less confusion.
Love to you, Laura,
Carolyn
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Hi everyone,
Thanks for all of your comments. I very much appreciated them and took them to heart. I’d like to respond to the specific questions. (If I missed any please let me know).
Poppyseed:
"I was wondering if I could ask you a question. What is your take on the PM that Gratitude28 received recently? I am a little unearthed by it. It crosses the line for me. I am wondering what you feel about it or what action you feel a person should take when this happens."
It crossed the line for me, too. Gratitude’s response to make it public, and/or tell me was just right.
Mud:
"How about you and a tip jar?"
I very much appreciate the thought. My wife says the same thing. But, I’m not quite there yet. Perhaps sometime in the future as the board continues to grow… (If anyone is feeling particularly guilty, if they want to purchase something on Amazon.com, they can enter Amazon by clicking on one of the books on the Reading List board, and then going to Amazon's home page, rather than going directly to Amazon.com. I’ll receive a small percentage of the purchase price of anything (not just books) they order.
Teartracks:
"Would love to hear your speech."
Thanks. For those of you who don’t know, a dear friend of mine, Rabbi Pollock, asks me to speak (briefly) at services every year at holiday time. This year’s theme is: “What dare we hope?” I’ll post my talk (a little Yom Kippur whimsy) as a separate topic on the board.
Best,
Richard
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Hi, Dr. G,
I would like you to know that a new member apparently joined this group with the name "ABC" and sent me an unwelcome pm.
I know who it was, quoting Scripture and berating me, but just thought you should be aware.
"ABC" has already cancelled that account, but may well do the same thing again.
I'll save this and any future pm's I get, in the event it becomes necessary to take further action, just wanted to make it perfectly clear and public that I do not want any more anonymous pm's and will report any further such contacts.
Thanks.
Sincerely,
Carolyn
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Hi, Certain Hope--
Thanks for telling me. Harassment is not permitted on the board. Let me know if it happens again, and you would like me to do something about it.
Best,
Richard
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Dr Grossman,
Would it be possible, when people sign up to this forum, to set out a bit of information about what people should do if someone gets harassed, because even if it's discussed on this thread, this is going to slip down after a few days, and any decision you make will need to be easily found later by newbies.
I know there is a page about how to use the different sections of the site - could information about abusive posts and PMs be put there, perhaps? Or a 'permanent post', like the one at the top of the forum at the moment?
Janet
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Hi, Certain Hope--
Thanks for telling me. Harassment is not permitted on the board. Let me know if it happens again, and you would like me to do something about it.
Best,
Richard
Thanks, Richard. I will let you know if the nonsense continuse, definitely.
I thought that asking for help might do me in... and it nearly did.
But it also got me in to see the M.D. for blood pressure meds... so there you are, Dr. G... you've saved my life in more ways than one.
Thanks again for being here.
Sincerely,
Carolyn
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((((((((((((Besee)))))))))))))) exactly... and when you try to bow out of the I-IT duo, somebody comes along and paints little red horns on your head and stuffs a pitchfork into your hand. There is no graceful exit... only bitter accusations and hatred... because the only way to satisfy the "I" is to become the "It", which means a return to codependency... and that is not an option.
Love,
Carolyn
I think part of what is going on is "board splitting" similar to "staff splitting" that happens in mental health centers and hospitals where the clients have backgrounds of being abused. It's not just that board members are having their own FOO stuff triggered, they are taking on the projective identification and acting out the intrapsychic wounds of other board members. The defense mechanisim of splitting people into all good or all bad is put of the group, of some taking the role of good and others the bad. Depending on who you are, you play the role of bad for some, and good for others.
besee
Dear Changing and Carolyn,
I looked back at my post after reading your comments and apologize for ascribing motives to other board members. I don't know what is in your or anyone else's heart or mind. When I did an advance search for the words "conflict resolution" and looked at old threads of past conflicts, it did look like to me that the issues were the same, but the names had changed. But a lot has been deleted and even if it looks like patterns, I don't know the individual person's motives - current realistic valid in the here and now irritation, getting hooked into someone else's stuff, FOO or something else.
I hate it when people ascribe motives to me - I feel treated like an "it" not Buber's I-Thou, but I-It
love, besee
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Thank you so much for this Board Dr. Grossman. I am not able to post as much as I would like because of the hours I work. Sometimes I just sit here and read the posts. It makes me feel like I am not so alone. I wish I had the time to respond to more people here. Some of the posts break my heart.
This board has helped me more then you know. We are lucky to have you, and the site, ty again so very much!
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Dr Grossman,
Another pm today. New member: 321BC. Same deal, Scripture quote in subject line.
I have not read it and won't be reading any more of these from unknown users.
The people who have harassed me on this board are blocked, so I guess they have resorted to this fly-by-night technique, but
I will not be opening their pm's.
Thanks for your help.
Sincerely,
Carolyn
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Isaiah 5:21
« Sent to: Richard Grossman, Certain Hope on: Today at 11:12:02 AM »
" I could go copy all the posts and paste them over here, but that wouldn't make a bit of difference if you're not willing to read what's actually there instead of some invisible signals in your head (Nice?). It seems that your mind is already decided and I believe that you are wrong, but that's your business. (Nice?)
My business is my boundary, which I will once again clarify now, for the final time
Carolyn" Why is it harassment to tell you the truth -- you do not have a monopoly on it. Who will now rise up and defend your bad behavior?
You talk down to people, Carolyn. You don't like to be treated badly, do you? Will God have to show you the truth -- are you a true believer?
Isaiah 5:20
Woe to those who call evil good and good evil, who put darkness for light and light for darkness, who put bitter for sweet and sweet for bitter.
Isaiah 5:21
Woe to those who are wise in their own eyes and clever in their own sight.
P.S. To save you the trouble of reporting to Dr. Grossman I have cc'd him myself. This board is open to opinions. I am not maligning you on the board - as you do others. I have sent you a personal message. I have nothing but the fondest wishes for you - no malice in my heart, as I said but I must protect myself against you for when you are asked about your behavior you choose to be ruthless. Why should everyone continue to suffer when perhaps you might see reason?
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Hi everyone,
The above post is an example of harassment, which is not permitted on the board. I am leaving it, for the time being, to serve as an example. I have also PM'd this member, and will temporarily ban this member from posting. If the member continues to register, post/PM, delete his/her account, and then reregister as someone else, further steps will be taken. I consider this a serious breach of board security, and will do everything I can to keep the board safe.
Best,
Richard
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Is it okay to hug a therapist long distance?
((((((((Dr.G)))))))))) thank you. So many times not reaching for help, not saying that it hurts... thank you for validating this try.
It's fine with me that the pm content stays... I've still not read it. It was just as you said - the breach of security - the deceptive tactics -
that is what I found so destructive and hurtful. First time in all my life I've felt safe for a bit and just can't take any more of that being shattered. I am tired of feeling like a wimp for not being strong enough to just take this stuff and ignore it. You are the best bp medicine in town... and this is a very good, healthful cry I'm having. Bless you, Richard.
Sincerely,
Carolyn
(((((((Bean)))))))) bless you, too.. much love
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I think it's important that wnen someone doesn't see eye to eye with you, to just leave them to their peace. I couldn't change people in my life nor get them to see things as I do. I feel that when Jodi posted, she even honored my right to see things from my own viewpoint, and I thank her for that and see the same for her.
It's ok to agree to disagree, not lash out and try to make the other person suffer. Bless your enemies and pray for those who mistreat you because of Jesus, but also because of anything in my view. If you are unjustly accused, realize that God sees and knows the hearts and the outcomes before we do, and let the other person have the freedom to self-discover the things that need to change in them.
just some thoughts
~Laura
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This confirms, for me, my initial opinion that the moderation currently in place is sufficient.
I also appreciate the public posting of what is considered an example of harrassment.
cats paw
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Those are great thoughts reallyMe and you've been such an role model of what you speak of this past week too. You are really walking your walk. I also agree with cat's paw - I appreciate the public posting.
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Ty for posting that so we could all see. Being a moderator on a board, I know first hand dealing with all kinds of people. I would have some people I did have to ban myself. You always have to have that one, or a handful on any board.
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Dear Richard,
Thank you for the time and caring you have put into this board. It has saved my life.
There have been occasional obnoxious posts and they are generally handled beautifully by ignoring them. The offensive poster loses interest. Conflicts between posters are inevitable, just as in life. The old soldiers here are good guides through this territory. There is no way to make this place or to set it to music either. What I do like is the way that the mudslinging goes on for awhile and then it is dealt with by the posters.
Conflict can teach us so much. About projection, about fear, about prejudice, competition etc. So now after a year and a half, when I see conflict erupting I detach and watch the process. This may sound arrogant, but it is hard won for me. Everyone is welcome but no one is in control. We just deal with it as a group and this is a very healthy society of friends indeed.
Lots of love,
Sea storm
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Hi, Certain Hope--
Thanks for telling me. Harassment is not permitted on the board. Let me know if it happens again, and you would like me to do something about it.
Best,
Richard
Hi all,
I am so glad to have read this thread, now, (as I was away from the board at this time, last Sept'07)
The above is what I would expect as it is clearly in line with the Board Membership agreement, which each person joining the board is required to tick in acceptance and agreement, and of which, I myself agreed to, in good faith:
You agree, through your use of this forum, that you will not post any material which is false, defamatory, inaccurate, abusive, vulgar, hateful, harassing,
obscene, profane, sexually oriented, threatening, invasive of a person's privacy
Not my truth - but the truth
of the difference between a conflict - and blatant abusive behavior.
Respectfully,
Love, Leah
EDIT > All of this is CURRENT
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Hi, Dr. Grossman,
I trust that if you think that anyone here on the board is engaging in harassment, you will let us know by speaking directly,
and not via a quote from a 9-month old post.
Thanks for keeping this place open and available... and for your help back in September of 2007, when I didn't know what else to do.
Now I do know... and I'm grateful to you always, for the opportunity to learn and to practice and to grow.
Sincerely,
Carolyn
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Thanks for telling me. Harassment is not permitted on the board. Let me know if it happens again, and you would like me to do something about it.
Best,
Richard
Hi all,
I am so glad to have read this thread, now, (as I was away from the board at this time, last Sept'07)
The above is what I would expect as it is clearly in line with the Board Membership agreement, which each person joining the board is required to tick in acceptance and agreement, and of which, I myself agreed to, in good faith:
You agree, through your use of this forum, that you will not post any material which is false, defamatory, inaccurate, abusive, vulgar, hateful, harassing,
obscene, profane, sexually oriented, threatening, invasive of a person's privacy
Not my truth - but the truth
of the difference between a conflict - and blatant abusive behavior.
Respectfully,
Love, Leah
All of this is CURRENT - I have just read again, and all of the agreement is exactly the same as of todays date at this moment in time.
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Hi Besee-
I don't know what you are asking- I think that you posted today about a snippet of something from almost a year ago- is that so? (if not, I am sorry for the mistake)
Anyway, the answer to your question is no.
Peace,
Changing
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Thanks, Dr. G!
Bones
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Thanks for telling me. Harassment is not permitted on the board. Let me know if it happens again, and you would like me to do something about it.
Best,
Richard
Hi all,
The above is what I would expect as it is clearly in line with the Board Membership agreement, which each person joining the board is required to tick in acceptance and agreement, and of which, I myself agreed to, in good faith:
You agree, through your use of this forum, that you will not post any material which is false, defamatory, inaccurate, abusive, vulgar, hateful, harassing,
obscene, profane, sexually oriented, threatening, invasive of a person's privacy
Not my truth - but the truth
of the difference between a conflict - and blatant abusive behavior.
Respectfully,
Love, Leah
All of this is CURRENT - I have just read again, and all of the agreement is exactly the same as of todays date at this moment in time.
Regarding the Board Ruling: (which I accept as a member)
Dr Grossman explained and highlighted on the board that when a person creates and issues a No Contact Order:
The Ruling is that the recipient PERSON of that order CANNOT post onto any Thread created by the board member who enforced the No Contact Order
and also, the recipient CANNOT make direct reference to the PERSON anywhere on any other thread, at any time - to the member who enforced the NO Contact Order
Likewise, Dr Grossman has made it clear that the person who creates and enforces a No Contact Order ... CANNOT make any reference to the recipient PERSON in his/her postings.
NOTE: Today, I ask the question? What happens if either person types the exact same words and/or uses the same phrase, quotation, article, website reference etc. ??
Does that in effect render the person in Breach of No Contact ruling?
I don't consider it is a breach of no contact ruling to simply type the same words, as I understand, in particular, on a public forum with no copyright rules.
Leah
http://www.voicelessness.com/disc3//index.php?topic=8143.0 (http://www.voicelessness.com/disc3//index.php?topic=8143.0) Clarification of the No Contact Rule.