Voicelessness and Emotional Survival Message Board

Voicelessness and Emotional Survival => Voicelessness and Emotional Survival Message Board => Topic started by: finding peace on September 22, 2007, 11:07:28 AM

Title: Idiot Compassion
Post by: finding peace on September 22, 2007, 11:07:28 AM: According to Wikpedia, compassion is best described as an understanding of the emotional state of another; not to be confused with empathy. Compassion is often combined with a desire to alleviate or reduce the suffering of another; to show special kindness to those who suffer. Compassion may lead one to feel empathy with another person. Compassion is often characterized through actions, wherein a person acting with compassion will seek to aid those they feel compassionate for.

I have been pondering compassion and its benefits and drawbacks. At one point, I felt so much compassion for the people who abused me, that I told myself that they were hurt too, that they didn’t know what they were doing, and because of this, it made it ok.

One day, about a year ago, I felt an internal scream reverberate throughout my being (was shocked at the strength of it) – When is it my turn, when is anyone going to show me some compassion? (Talking about my FOO.) I have spent my life bending myself into a pretzel to accommodate everyone around me; no one ever showed me an ounce of compassion ever. When is it my turn, or is my role in life relegated to forever taking care of those around me at my expense?

I realized at that time that I would never get compassion from my family – the patterns of belief and behavior are set in stone – I cannot change it.

Following these thoughts, it occurred to me that the only way I was going to get any compassion from my FOO was to give it to myself. I was shocked by this thought – seemed selfish. Still does. I was so thoroughly trained to take care of everyone else and their needs before mine. Does this sound familiar to anyone?

While I was searching for definitions, I found the phrase idiot compassion at Pema Chodron’s website:

***********************************************************************************************************************************
from: http://www.shambhala.org/teachers/pema/qa5.php (http://www.shambhala.org/teachers/pema/qa5.php)

Pema: Idiot compassion is a great expression, which was actually coined by Trungpa Rinpoche. It refers to something we all do a lot of and call it compassion. In some ways, it's whats called enabling. It's the general tendency to give people what they want because you can't bear to see them suffering. Basically, you're not giving them what they need. You're trying to get away from your feeling of I can't bear to see them suffering. In other words, you're doing it for yourself. You're not really doing it for them.

When you get clear on this kind of thing, setting good boundaries and so forth, you know that if someone is violent, for instance, and is being violent towards you —to use that as the example— it's not the compassionate thing to keep allowing that to happen, allowing someone to keep being able to feed their violence and their aggression. So of course, they're going to freak out and be extremely upset. And it will be quite difficult for you to go through the process of actually leaving the situation. But that's the compassionate thing to do.

It's the compassionate thing to do for yourself, because you're part of that dynamic, and before you always stayed. So now you're going to do something frightening, groundless, and quite different. But it's the compassionate thing to do for yourself, rather than stay in a demeaning, destructive, abusive relationship.

And it's the most compassionate thing you can do for them too. They will certainly not thank you for it, and they will certainly not be glad. They'll go through a lot. But if there's any chance for them to wake up or start to work on their side of the problem, their abusive behavior or whatever it might be, that's the only chance, is for you to actually draw the line and get out of there.

We all know a lot of stories of people who had to hit that kind of bottom, where the people that they loved stopped giving them the wrong kind of compassion and just walked out. Then sometimes that wakes a person up and they start to do what they need to do.

***********************************************************************************************************************************

When I first read this, I thought ewww – idiot compassion (didn’t like the term). But you know, it is true. I have done this – not stated the truth as I see it (which ironically may not be the truth at all, just my perception of it) for fear of hurting someone’s feelings – in fact, did this most of my childhood after I learned that no one wanted to hear my truth.

However, by the time I got to the last paragraph, the thought occurred to me that maybe, by going NC, I have shown true compassion – both for myself and for my M. Instead of living a lie and staying in an abusive relationship with my M - maybe my actions will be the impetuous for her to examine her own part in the pathology, and by doing so grow? Seems a bit presumptuous of me to assume that she needs to examine anything?

Shortly thereafter it occurred to me that with true Ns – it doesn’t really matter does it? No matter what you do or say, be it the truth or idiot compassion - they will always mutate it to suit their agenda.

Just some rambling thoughts from a tired brain. The thought of going NC troubles me. I don’t like the thought of the pain I have caused her – and I know I have. Do I have to forever feed her insatiable appetite and sacrifice myself, or is it fair to say enough, I have been doing this for a lifetime – no more – it is OK to take some time for me?

Not sure where I am going with this, but would like to hear other’s thoughts or insights into compassion, and is it OK to turn the compassion towards yourself, even when it hurts another?

Peace
Title: Re: Idiot Compassion
Post by: cats paw on September 22, 2007, 11:30:24 AM: Finding Peace,

This is a great post. I wrestle with that one when it comes to my family. I need to think about what might be some concrete personal examples- I think I might have one when I've got a bit more time to write.

cats paw
Title: Re: Idiot Compassion
Post by: jillebean on September 22, 2007, 12:30:12 PM: Peace! Peace :D

I read Pema's thing on Idiot Compassion just a couple of weeks ago. I really like the concept, but I have a really hard time creating a mental picture for myself of what it might look like/how it manifests itself in my daily interactions.

My thought, as I started picking at a mosquito bite on my arm (anxiety/habitual) was that I perhaps notice when I am showing idiot compassion towards myself? Then perhaps I can transfer some of that awarenes to others. I dunno.

Have you heard Pema's audio-book called "Getting Unstuck"? She talks some about dysfunctional family relationships. Also, I recently found a free podcast called Happiness Through Self Awareness and I'm diggin' the content. It focuses on looking inward and the dude uses authentic examples so it's easier for me to visualize than some of the more science-based content. The main web site is: ht
http://www.pathwaytohappiness.com.

Have a beautiful, loving day!

jill
Title: Re: Idiot Compassion
Post by: Certain Hope on September 22, 2007, 01:15:02 PM: Dear Peace,

Yes, this is very familar to me. I've looked into these issues from several different perspectives, beginning with the "Too Nice" syndrome, where we might think we're doing such wonderful things for others but actually we're doing them for ourselves...
and most recently from the "self sorrowing" position, which is quite similar to what you've described in wondering - is it okay to have compassion for myself?
And I say, Yes... it is okay...
it is necessary, and it is absolutely a directive - for me - of the Christian life. More and more, I'm seeing the crucial need to value self and be compassionate toward self, before I have anything of genuine and eternal value to offer others.
Without that self-concern, any concern I give to others will be false and shallow... because it's not from the heart, but rather from an attempt to prove myself good and loving.
Without the humility to admit that I do not know what is best for anyone, I can make alot of wrong steps in the direction of "helping" which only wind up destroying the very essence of the truth which God placed in me. I recently felt that in an undeniably expressive manner... and I have seen the light!
The driving force of all compassion must be, imo, a very firm grasp of just how much grace I need, myself... and then I can deal rightly with others without that old burden of shame to twist the picture.

Here's an article I read a couple weeks ago, which helped me to begin to understand the difference between real compassion and it's substitute.. http://www.freshministry.org/articles/difficult.html (http://www.freshministry.org/articles/difficult.html)

It's written from the point of view of a Christian minister and his dealings with difficult people, but then... in our most basic human relationships... aren't we all ministers... helpers?
Through this man's experience, I was able to see that it's healthy and good to be a helper of others... but first we must recognize what truly helps and what doesn't.

Here are the main points...

I have made some promises to myself about how I will deal with antagonists in the future:

I won't be paralyzed by negative feelings.

I will stay in control of my time.

I will like myself regardless of other's opinion of me.

I will act, not react.

Sounds to me like a good set of healthy boundaries is needed for this process... and that's what it all continues to come back to for me... establishing solid, self--respecting boundaries... because we can't truly respect anyone if we're laying ourselves on the people-pleasing altar time and again.
Hope this helps.

Love,
Carolyn
Title: Re: Idiot Compassion
Post by: hannah38 on September 22, 2007, 01:29:55 PM: Hi Finding Peace,

Yup.

I have spent my life bending myself into a pretzel to accommodate everyone around me; no one ever showed me an ounce of compassion ever. When is it my turn, or is my role in life relegated to forever taking care of those around me at my expense?

I realized at that time that I would never get compassion from my family – the patterns of belief and behavior are set in stone – I cannot change it.

Following these thoughts, it occurred to me that the only way I was going to get any compassion from my FOO was to give it to myself. I was shocked by this thought – seemed selfish. Still does. I was so thoroughly trained to take care of everyone else and their needs before mine. Does this sound familiar to anyone?

This sounds very familiar. What you say resonates with my experience as well. I feel like I am stuck in Idiot Compassion; in part, I learned it from my mother and how she coped and in part, I just feel like I don't know how else to be and be loved. My hubbie will love the article you posted because he's been trying to tell me about Idiot Compassion in a not-so-eloquent way and it just sounded mean. In reading the article, though, it sounds very centered. I just don't want to lose my family, I love them so much.
But you know what, we do have to care for ourselves and to value ourselves.

Finding Peace, you deserve peace and compassion. From yourself and from others.

I found Henry Cloud's book on Boundaries very helpful. It is a Christian book. One of the concepts is that we are to love others AS WE LOVE OURSELVES. That was a huge wake-up call for me. I am, as a Christian, actually instructed to care for myself. It made the whole thing seem much less selfish. More acceptable.

So interesting that Idiot Compassion is really for oneself. Not for others. A way of coping.
Title: Re: Idiot Compassion
Post by: isittoolate on September 22, 2007, 01:31:45 PM: I am interested in this phrase (it's an eye-catcher) and in retrospect, regarding my FOO, I did the compassionate thing by moving so far away.

In earlier years I was always "running from sister to sister' looking for approval, or closeness, or love, and I ended up feeling like a pest.

I just felt not needed and a 2000 mile move has solved the problem. No one has to feel obligated to look after me, visit me, etc. and the reverse is true.

I feel as though I have let us all off the hook.

When Sis, Ruth was here Aug weekend, one of the talks brought up another sister's name. I asked and she said, "I keep my sisters separate". I had previously wondered to her in an email if "words were spread a round and she had then said, "separate sisters"

Now my eldest sister just sent me an email, "sorry about your leg". Well only Ruth could have told her, as only Ruth knew. It's not the topic but this appears to contradict "separate sisters" and opens me up to a hulabaloo email from this other sister.

.......or DOES the topic allow her to change her beliefs?
Love
Izzy

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Title: Re: Idiot Compassion
Post by: hannah38 on September 22, 2007, 01:36:42 PM: My sister moved 3000 miles away. It seems to have solved a lot for her, too.

I'm considering it. She writes on holidays and e mails sometimes. Rarely calls. It is understood (somehow) not to call her. I miss her a lot but its the choice she made for her own survival and life and I understand that.

I guess she's created her own world away from it all. And its afforded her the opportunity to be healthier.

The cost of losing family is high, but sometimes necessary. When I visited her she said, "You're feeling better here because you're away from all that."

:wink:
Title: Re: Idiot Compassion
Post by: isittoolate on September 22, 2007, 01:55:27 PM: Thanks for that Hannah,

The situations appear similar

I left FOO, plus my daughtr and grandchildren, so am alone, but happier away from the dysfunction.

xx
Izzy

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Title: Re: Idiot Compassion
Post by: lighter on September 22, 2007, 02:07:20 PM: Ummmmm, if I completely identify with the term 'idiot compassion' and see it modeled too often for comfort.

I couldn't even identify it this time last year, much less put my voice to it.

Being able to comment on it, from my evil little perch, means I'm healing.....

IMO of course.:shock:

Thanks for the thread, Peace... I like broudening my vocabulary.
Title: Re: Idiot Compassion
Post by: Certain Hope on September 22, 2007, 02:24:42 PM: Quote from: lighter on September 22, 2007, 02:07:20 PM

Being able to comment on it, from my evil little perch, means I'm healing.....

IMO of course.:shock:

Dear Lighter,

What do you mean by your evil little perch? Would you please clarify?

Love,
Carolyn
Title: Re: Idiot Compassion
Post by: lighter on September 22, 2007, 03:26:30 PM: Heh..... broudening, lol..

Broudening my vocabulary, lol.... very funny typo.

What I mean by,' from my evil perch', Hope...... is being up high enough that I can make comments that I see as true, where I used to not be able to put a voice to them.

I used to be too vulnerable to the reaction I might receive....

I used to keep quiet instead of talk about what I was witnessing.

Funny story.....

On one of my first dates with H..... he was unloading a little antique car at a drag race.

I knew how the trailer should work....

So much weight is transferred to the rear... it tilts down and the offloading process is completed smoothly without much of a bump and a showy vroom vroom completes the process.

Except, with a very large audience in place, he forgot to unhitch the doohicky that allows the trailer to tilt.

I stood there and watched him back his fancy little car off the end of his fancy little trailer.... inch by inch....and didn't say a word as it became terribly obviouse there was no tilting going on. There was plenty of time to save him :shock: I just stood there and said nothing, hopeful that it would work out OK, lol.

He wanted to know why I didn't say anything....

I didn't quite know why I just stood there, cocking my head painfully to the side, trying to figure out exactly how it would work.... surely.... it would?

Right?

Even with all evidence pointing to the contrary?

Ummmmmm... nope.

BANG! Now everyone who wasn't looking.... is looking and there sat H, feeling very very silly in his fancy little car on his fancy little trailer that should have tilted but failed bc I didn't say anything, lol.

And I would have done him a favor by raising my hand up, and pointing out the obviouse..... right?

So.... I finally come to a place in my life where I can peep up, lol.

But I find that the majority of folks don't want honesty from me!

They mostly seem to want to be validated, no matter if I agree with them or not.

They want to be agreed with, even if I do not agree.

I used to do that, it was easier and I was comfortable doing that. ::shrug::

I find opposition to the truth..... really tough opposition.... name calling opposition and being labled mean things.... negative intentions designated with authority, lol.

Really quite something.... and I have only so much energy so.... what to do what to do?

I may not be 100% spot on all the time but.... it would be nice if folks could sit back and consider what I've said.... instead of sit back and figure out what insult to fling my way, in retaliation bc that seems like the obviouse course of action to take when I voice my true feelings. :nodding::

I know I can be honest with a few people. One frets a bit but I can speak my truth and we eventually come out somewhere just this side of disagreement, but there's understanding.

I can speak my truth to some board members here, and really appreciate that more than you can know.

Having my honesty accepted by some... makes it easier to see how odd some reactions are from those that get ticked off and confrontational. I might have responded with a traditional head bob/nod/wag thing, that passes for agreement, (bc I can't pony up an actual nod), had I known they were going to feel the way they do about not being agreed with :shock:

Right now I don't just have the board in mind..... as I answer your question..... I have my FOO and friends and H in mind too: /

Good grief.... children's teachers and aqauintances.... church mama friends...

But they aren't always happy to hear the truth, are they?

No.... they aren't.

So... sometimes I find I shorten what I want to say and it goes awry.... or all wrong and the wheels come completely off.

I can laugh about it now but..... I'm still a bit shy about speaking my mind, and it hurts the delivery at times.

Hmmmm... I think I'll go back to Sheriff Andy Taylor as my model for communicating awkward things.

Oh dear.....

He was able to laugh at himself and find the humor too.

Damn.... that won't work, lol; )
Title: Re: Idiot Compassion
Post by: Certain Hope on September 22, 2007, 03:53:07 PM: Hey, I liked that "broudening"... very continental, in a typo-ish sorta way !

And I have had that very experience with non-tilting trailers... but I know part of the reason why I couldn't speak.

As a child, if I dared to speak about what I thought might be a problem, I learned that was not my place.

Both my parents took extreme offense at even the slightest suggestion that something may be wrong.

I didn't recognize that until 40 years later, married to NPD-ex, whose defensiveness to perceived criticism
took the cake :S

The other part of why... well, just as you've said here... I'd cock my head painfully to the side, trying to figure out...
SURELY it would work... ??
Basically, I thought everyone else in the world was smarter, more clever, wiser than I and surely they knew better.
I no longer believe that. Guess you don't either. : )

A healthy person is not so defensive about disagreement.
There's a phase (and hopefully it IS only a phase) where a person recovering from abuse
has N in her eyes... seeing N everywhere, in everyone... I was there. It's a stage which should pass... but sometimes
fear (and pride) can cause it to pass quite slowly... or not at all :S

Name calling and labeling are the weapons of immature people... some bullies, some just ignorant.
To a point, gentle tolerance is likely the best example... but only to a point, imo.
We can put the best construction on everything... and we can also make a decision to guard our own hearts.
These two can be simultaneous... not waiting to set boundaries only as a last resort.

What to do?
For me.. I say, if you're upset with me, say so and we'll try to grow beyond it.
For someone else? I think we need to use some discernment and not set our expectations too high... and yet, set those boundaries.

When we toss out our opinions and advice, it'd better be with the full awareness that each person has a mind of his/her own and is fully
entitled to accept or reject our words. All of our counsel is a gift we give to others....
ya don't try to force someone to receive a gift, do ya?

It's different when you're talking with somebody with whom you're in close relationship.
of course expectations should be higher then... don't let yourself be dismissed so casually, right?

Lighter, sounds to me like you're placing too much value in the regard others have (or don't have)
for your views. Usually when that's happened with me, it's because the other person is doin something
that really grates against me... and I want them to stop. When I could see the controlling-ness behind my annoyance,
it was alot easier to let it go. But that only works with very casual relationships, you know?

If speaking your mind is relatively new for you, it's natural that it's carrying alot of weight right now.
Besides, you are being disrespected at some of the most intimate levels, I know ((((((((Lighter)))))))))
and so I can surely understand how important it would be for you to be genuinely heard elsewhere.

Umm... I hear ya. My ears get waxy at times, and other times we're speakin a different language entirely,
and yet I hear you... and I care.
I think you're a peach.

With love,
Carolyn

P.S. you can always use humor toward yourself, just don't take it too personally when others rebel against it... they have their reasons.
Title: Re: Idiot Compassion
Post by: lighter on September 22, 2007, 04:51:15 PM: Quote from: Certain Hope on September 22, 2007, 03:53:07 PM
**Hey, I liked that "broudening"... very continental, in a typo-ish sorta way !

****P.S. you can always use humor toward yourself, just don't take it too personally when others rebel against it... they have their reasons.

**heh.... glad you enjoyed it.

Annnnnnnnnd......

****I've been wait'in

and waitin to say this.....

keep scrolling.....

You're......

Keep scrolling....

NOT THE BOSS'A ME!

Ahhhh...... I've been holding that in for yeeeeeaaaaars, lol.

It took someone as gentle nice kind and patient as you to let it out, lol; )

::whispering::

I just don't consider I've taken it personally here....

What I don't appreciate is having evil intentions and motives assumed, on my part.

A simple rebellion, sans the above, might be refreshing, lol.
Title: Re: Idiot Compassion
Post by: Certain Hope on September 22, 2007, 05:11:55 PM: lol... I know, Lighter.

Nobody's the bossa anybody... here or elsewhere... and it's when that's forgotten that so much trouble arises.

I wouldn't expend my energies even sharing my views with someone whom I know does not value me as a person.
I don't have to dislike them or resent them to make that choice... and it really doesn't take much effort to discover who those folks are.

So I might try to talk with them, to share... and if they don't respond well... that's cool.

But I'm with you in the "evil intentions and motives" department.

I think it's natural for victims of abuse to visualize such evil intentions and motives behind every shrub... for awhile.

I think it'd be most mature and healthful for victims of abuse to recognize that inclination within themselves and acknowledge that they have no crystal ball in which to analyze another person's heart.

I think it'd be most prudent and least damaging for everyone for victims of abuse to at least have the decency to not spew their spurilous opinions all over a public board (or via pm) assigning psych disorders and sociopathic tendancies to human beings with whom they quite likely have a simple personality conflict.

All that'd be really nice.

But on a board for victims of abuse? I see that as highly unlikely.

So... I'd say that generosity and patience are both prerequisites for successful participation here.

And I am not either... just determined to get there.

With love,
Carolyn
Title: Re: Idiot Compassion
Post by: Hopalong on September 22, 2007, 05:18:46 PM: Peace, my answer to each question in your post is a very heartfelt yes. So happy to hear you pose those questions.

Lighter and Hope. And Pema.

I am very much in touch with the idiot part.
I have a strong appreciation for the holy fool.

I think empathy cannot be compelled. It can be asked for but not demanded.

Thank you, Lighter and Hope, for talking about speaking and not being so afraid of disagreement. Risking disapproval and finding out that basically, well, nobody dies...disagreement is just what it is. Not more. Discomfort isn't death, it's a message. But it's up to each person, not anyone else, to decide how much they are ready to feel, tolerate, and learn from, at one time.

Our lessons are our own. Our timing is our own. Our plans and hopes are our own. We are alone with them. When we offer our telling to someone else, that's a present. Here, it's a present. The other can take them and unwrap and enjoy with us or go off to the next party. We are still free to enjoy our gifts.

Thanks, you guys.

love,
Hops
Title: Re: Idiot Compassion
Post by: finding peace on September 22, 2007, 06:46:12 PM: Hi cats paw

Quote from: cats paw on September 22, 2007, 11:30:24 AM
Finding Peace,

This is a great post. I wrestle with that one when it comes to my family. I need to think about what might be some concrete personal examples- I think I might have one when I've got a bit more time to write.

cats paw

Thanks! I enjoy your posts very much and look forward to hearing from you!

Peace
Title: Re: Idiot Compassion
Post by: finding peace on September 22, 2007, 06:59:53 PM: Hi Jill,

Quote
I read Pema's thing on Idiot Compassion just a couple of weeks ago.
Quote

This happens to me so frequently here - something I see or am thinking about and then I see a post!

I haven't thought of this at the level of daily interactions so much. But thank you for mentioning this as it got me to thinking about how this would also seem to be a great reframe on setting more simple boundaries (more simple than NC) in everyday life.

Hadn't thought about when I am showing idiot compassion to myself. Would love to hear more on this.

I haven't heard Pema's audio-book - did you like it? I also visited the link you posted - looks like some really good information there. I really like the concept of self regulation as opposed to trying to regulate self through others, if that makes any sense (sorry have a migraine at the moment - but want to post back to everyone before I get too far behind again!!)

You have a beautiful, loving day as well! ((((Thanks))))
Title: Re: Idiot Compassion
Post by: finding peace on September 22, 2007, 07:54:04 PM: Dear Carolyn,

Yes, it helps.

Thank you so much for that link. I loved the clear distinction between difficult situations and difficult people – some very, very good advice there (I am printing out your rules). (Just have to add that I cringe a little at calling people difficult as I was told, repeatedly, that I was difficult as a child and this really hurt. As an adult, I have come to realize that it is true. I was difficult, I was difficult in their eyes because I challenged their beliefs at a fundamental level :smile: With reasonable parents, this most likely would have been handled as a difficult situation. (very eye-opening that)

In addition to the rules you posted, the following from Dr. Wilson’s article really resonated with me: (from: http://www.freshministry.org/articles/difficult.html)

“The best way I can deal with a difficult situation is to not get defensive, but to listen. Listening is more than a pause from speaking. It is not an opportunity to "reload my mind so I can shoot off at my mouth." It is a chance to understand the message the speaker is conveying. I need to listen with Empathy.

Difficult situations can be resolved, difficult people can never be satisfied.”

I never had this as a child, so it was foreign to me in a lot of ways. When I had children, I really learned to listen, listen to them and try to stretch to understand where they were coming from. It has made all the difference in our relationship I think - and is really great advice. The most important piece for me I think is to learn to differentitate difficult behaviors that are showing a difficult situation vs. a difficult person. The only way I have found to do that so far is to watch for patterns in behavior over time.

You also said,
Quote
More and more, I'm seeing the crucial need to value self and be compassionate toward self, before I have anything of genuine and eternal value to offer others. Without that self-concern, any concern I give to others will be false and shallow... because it's not from the heart, but rather from an attempt to prove myself good and loving.
Quote

Do you think so? Have you already attained this then? Maybe I am misunderstanding, but from my perspective, your willingness to share your struggles in finding your path and searching for your truth and the support, advice, and wisdom you have given me has helped me immeasurably. I don’t see this as false or shallow at all. I am sorry to disagree (jumping out of idiot compassion here :wink: ), but I believe you do have genuine and eternal value to offer to others already.

Much love to you,
Peace
Title: Re: Idiot Compassion
Post by: finding peace on September 22, 2007, 08:51:14 PM: Dear Hannah,

Quote

This sounds very familiar. What you say resonates with my experience as well. I feel like I am stuck in Idiot Compassion; in part, I learned it from my mother and how she coped and in part, I just feel like I don't know how else to be and be loved. My hubbie will love the article you posted because he's been trying to tell me about Idiot Compassion in a not-so-eloquent way and it just sounded mean. In reading the article, though, it sounds very centered. I just don't want to lose my family, I love them so much. But you know what, we do have to care for ourselves and to value ourselves.
Quote

Thank you for responding in the midst of your own struggle. I too learned idiot compassion as a child – it was the only way to live with my father quasi peacefully. The slightest disagreement with him was like poking a rabid bull in the eye with a red hot poker.

I read your posts but haven't had a chance to respond there. I hope it is ok if I respond here.

I understand not wanting to lose your family. I was that way as well. This may sound like a strange question, but I am going to ask anyway (this is not meant to offend at all, just something I learned that I thought of when I read your posts):

Do you love your family for who they really are, or do you love what you hope they can be? This is a really tough question, and may not resonate with you. I can only speak from my experience. Last year I realized that I was holding onto a dream of the family I wished and hoped for, not for the family I really had. And while I was desperately clinging to that dream, I was being torn to pieces emotionally. It was a real struggle to let go of that dream - I went through shock, denial, rage, pain, and grief.

It seems to me that there is a lot of talk at you in your family, but not with you. I tried to think of what I would say if my daughter came to me and told me she was marrying someone I didn’t like. First of all, her age would be a factor in how I responded. But, there comes a point where children need to make their own choices.

I simply would have said, honey, I obviously don’t know xx as well as you. From the interactions we have had, here are my concerns, and here is why. Can you help me understand this from your perspective? And I would listen and then let go of the outcome because she will do what she needs to do for her, and I respect that she has a good head on her shoulders and if ever there was a need, she could come to me.

I wasn’t raised in a family like this, but this seems reasonable to me. I don’t see your family treating you that way – would it have made a difference if you had been approached that way instead of all the manipulations, mind games, and threats?

In any case, not sure any of this will resonate - just some thoughts that came up when I read your posts.

Please know that I am thinking about you, and my heart goes out to you in this situation. And thanks again for thinking of me in the midst of your own struggle!

(((((Sending you strength and hugs)))))

Much love to you,
Peace
Title: Re: Idiot Compassion
Post by: Ami on September 22, 2007, 08:51:33 PM: Dear Peace,
I have been thinking about your thread for a while.I think that "idiot compassion" is when you are forced to jettison yourself in favor of taking care of another..
I think that our Mother's( and Fathers) did that to us. We HAD to build them up at our expense. We had to push unacceptable reactions and speech under the rug SO they could feel good. We had to worry about how THEY would feel as we were dying inside.
I don't know if I made up a new definition of idiot compassion,but that it how I see it.
It could define my life. "I am a compassionate idiot The other side to it is how very,very hard it is to give compassion to ourselves.
Maybe this is the flip side of the coin to compassionate idiot. The flip side is that I am worthless and don't deserve compassion. For me, it IS the flip side.
Right now, Peace, I am at this very crossroads. I see that I MUST give compassion to myself. However, I was brainwashed to take care of everyone else and give me the dregs.
I feel very stuck . The inner child books are the only thing tht has ever helped me move from this stuck place.
Inside me, there is the 11th commandment------ Do not nurture and take care of yourself. it is WRONG-WRONG--WRONG.
I really want to go in my head and tear out the software. Were it so easy?
Peace-- I think that the inner child within us knows all the answers to how we should live our lives. If you ask your inner child about NC ,I bet that you will get a wealth of information.
One thing that I CAN say about NC,is that it really helps you to see just how bad they are.It gives you enough distance that it is a shock to hear their evil voice and see their evil machinations.
Distance will give you a perspective that contact does not(IME)
So glad to see that you are posting again .Much Love to you Ami
Title: Re: Idiot Compassion
Post by: finding peace on September 23, 2007, 09:41:09 AM: IIIIZZZYYYY!!!!

I am sorry - I was trying to catch up last night with a migraine and got out of sequence!!!

You said:

Quote
I am interested in this phrase (it's an eye-catcher) and in retrospect, regarding my FOO, I did the compassionate thing by moving so far away.

In earlier years I was always "running from sister to sister' looking for approval, or closeness, or love, and I ended up feeling like a pest.

I just felt not needed and a 2000 mile move has solved the problem. No one has to feel obligated to look after me, visit me, etc. and the reverse is true.

I feel as though I have let us all off the hook.

When Sis, Ruth was here Aug weekend, one of the talks brought up another sister's name. I asked and she said, "I keep my sisters separate". I had previously wondered to her in an email if "words were spread a round and she had then said, "separate sisters"

Now my eldest sister just sent me an email, "sorry about your leg". Well only Ruth could have told her, as only Ruth knew. It's not the topic but this appears to contradict "separate sisters" and opens me up to a hulabaloo email from this other sister.

.......or DOES the topic allow her to change her beliefs?
Quote

First I wanted to say I have been thinking of you and sending prayers that those bones knit as quick as they can! I am so sorry you have so much on your plate right now – but as is typical for you seem to be handling it with the utmost grace and strength!

Yeah – the term idiot compassion caught my eye too. Didn’t like it at first – but it makes a lot of sense.

You said that you feel that moving away has let you all off the hook. Are you OK with that? It may have left them off the hook – but has there been a price to you? Frankly, for me, the thought of moving 2000 miles away would be a blessed relief - isn't feasible at this time tho.

Regarding the e-mail, could your brother have told your other sister? Not sure but if Ruth did – maybe she felt the sister should know as it involved an injury. I dunno, I probably would have told because it did involve a serious injury, BUT I would have asked you first.

Is this a sister you want to converse with – or is this the one you consider an N?

Much love to you,
Peace
Title: Re: Idiot Compassion
Post by: Certain Hope on September 23, 2007, 10:25:51 AM: (((((((Peace)))))))) thank you so much.

When I've felt like my communication would only be shallow or false, I generally haven't been able to say anything at all.
The trouble is, I've not felt much compassion for those whom I've considered dangerous... (and for awhile, these were legion, because I was so shell-shocked)... and so I don't feel that I've been too successful at loving "the unloveable".
But again, these are feelings... awarenesses of my own limits... and maybe compassion is not so much a feeling (any more than forgiveness is, imo)... but rather a deliberate decision of will.

Anyhow, I am thinking that a proper self-value (which is absolutely honest about both weaknesses and strengths) and compassion-for-self, when based on right principles (on Christ), would allow me to share equally with both the unloveable and with the loveable.
Sounds good in theory : ) Now to walk it out!
You, for instance, dear Peace - are absolutely loveable - so it's easy. Dealing with folks who've shown a well-seasoned pattern of difficulty... well that is another matter entirely. So... I have much work to do... and I'm just thankful for folks like you, who are a virtual oasis in the midst of a very wide and dusty desert.

With much love,
Carolyn
Title: Re: Idiot Compassion
Post by: finding peace on September 23, 2007, 11:29:19 AM: Thanks Hops.

Carolyn thanks for asking Lighter to clarify. I was getting a little worried about Lighter sittin out there on her evil perch with horns on her head.

Lighter – always glad to expand the vocabulary.

You said:

Quote
But I find that the majority of folks don't want honesty from me!
They mostly seem to want to be validated, no matter if I agree with them or not.
They want to be agreed with, even if I do not agree.
I used to do that, it was easier and I was comfortable doing that. ::shrug::
Quote

I couldn’t agree more. This is where it is so hard to break away from idiot compassion. What I am trying to do is to give honesty, but to give it in a way that the other person can hear it. Tricky part is figuring that out. It also depends on who the person is, where they are coming from, and the amount I am invested. May sound selfish, but I am not going to risk world war III with a stranger who can’t handle the truth if that makes any sense. And there will be cases, like Ns, where it does not matter if you are honest or lie through your teeth; they can’t hear you (I get this picture in my mind of a little kid with their hands over their ears saying naaa-na-na-naaaa-na). When I run into these – if I dispense with idiot compassion, I do it very, very carefully (learned this from the old wormtail [my F]) and then let things fall where they may.

Lighter (jumping out of idiot compassion here for a moment, because I suspect you can handle the truth), I do not see any evil intentions or motives from any of your posts - this is what I do see :::disclaimer this is my opinion::::. You are an incredibly strong, with it, intelligent person. You are a great mother. You keep your troubles close to your heart, but are always willing to help someone else out. You have really, really good advice. If you are hurt, you usually deflect with humor, but will lash back on rare occasions. If this happens you let it go quickly. (I could learn some of that - have a hard time letting go.) You have a wonderful sense of humor (a very dry, dry, wit) and have lightened many of my days. If you see something that doesn’t sit right with you, you will nudge the issue, but you will do it with humor. I also think that your way of dealing with pain is humor. Sometimes I think of the Greek drama mask. Here, when you see something you don’t like, you will question it. I think on the few occasions where a disconnect may have happened, it is because some people have a difficult time with humor or, they misinterpreted it. Does that make you an evil meanie – no; does that make the other person an evil meanie – no. It is simply a misunderstanding. In any case, that is what I have gleaned from your posts - may be off on the wrong foot here, but with all that being said (or long post made short - ha), I am very glad you are here.

You can dispense with the idiot compassion with me – k? I value your opinion – just be prepared to get true compassion back – k? :wink:

I am busy here carving my own evil perch. As soon as it is done, how about you all come over, I’ll put a pot of witch’s brew on, complete with eye of newt and toad lips, and we’ll have us a party. Lighter – can you bring the teapot? The neti pot should do – promise I won’t make you drink from your nose like the evil Hops (just kidding Hops – you are the farthest thing from evil in my mind).

::::whispering – can I have an amazon outfit, please, please – can it have the wonder woman arm bands to dodge those bullets (or tomatoes if needed) and definitely the truth rope – that would really come in handy:::::

Love you guys!
Peace
Title: Re: Idiot Compassion
Post by: finding peace on September 23, 2007, 12:19:53 PM: Dear Ami,

I have been thinking of you a lot recently. Sorry this is a long one but you really sparked the migraine brain:

Can idiot compassion be extrapolated to children who subvert their own needs to accommodate a parent? I think yes and no. Yes in the sense that I think this meets the definition of idiot compassion. No in the sense that I think children are forced into this role – it is not a conscious choice for a child, it is what a child needs to do to survive.

I said this in another thread, but I think it only natural that a child put the negatives on themselves rather than realize that their parents are the true monsters in the closet. What adult wants to realize their parent is a monster (look at how much we struggle with this) – a child does not have the wherewithal to deal with this at any level. They need to survive and the only way to do it is to place the blame on themselves rather than where it truly belongs.

Dr. G posted a thread not too long ago about a radio show. (Thank you Dr. G this was pivotal for me.) In the radio show they talked the Harlow experiments. You probably know these very well given your studies.

What really jumped out at me was the part where the cloth mother monkeys were created to forcibly throw the baby monkey away every time the baby monkey touched it. In the interview, they described how the baby monkeys would do everything they could to get the cloth monkey to accept it – and kept going back no matter how many times the mother threw them away.

When I heard this, it dawned on me that perhaps that desire for maternal love, compassion, and nurturing is innate. Maybe we are hardwired to seek acceptance from our parents no matter who they are or how they act – they can forcibly throw us away with words or actions numerous times, and yet we will always go back. It would explain why it is so hard to break away.

I always struggled with the thought that if someone outside of my FOO treated me the way my FOO did, I would have walked away without a backwards glance – why is it so hard when it comes to FOO – it just didn’t make sense.

In so many posts, time and again, I see you criticizing yourself and being so hard on yourself in so many, many ways. IMO, you did not willing throw your core away or sacrifice yourself in the face of your mother’s pathology – you did what was biologically innate in all of us. You offered it to her again, again, and again – only to have it thrown back at you. When you were 14, this was a pivotal time, you were looking for affirmation from your father, and he failed you – it seems to me at this point, when your correct view on reality was refuted, you reverted to innate nature – you sacrificed yourself to get whatever scrap you could from your mother and from your father the one who you really trusted at that age. Is it wrong or shameful to have done so – absolutely not!

I dunno, a lot of thoughts coming together for me here :smile: (hope you can find something for you here). I think of myself as the baby monkey, desperately twisting myself time and again to get something from that cloth monkey. I have finally woken to the insanity of this – no matter how hard I try, that cloth monkey has nothing to give and will continually throw me away – because that is all it knows.

For me, I have decided (again :roll: ) that it is time to take all that energy that I am uselessly throwing at a cloth monkey (including all of the memories that I rehash over and over trying to find the reason in them) and put it someplace where it will be really valued – towards myself and my real family.

Not sure if any of this will resonate with you, but I am very grateful to you for asking the question – you have really helped me to resolve some of these issues in my mind.

Much love to you,
Peace
Title: Re: Idiot Compassion
Post by: Ami on September 23, 2007, 12:28:45 PM: Dear Peace
That post was worth------ ten years of therapy( with a good therapist). Peace, that was pure wisdom.
Thank you so much. That was one of the most profound posts I have ever read. Love Ami
Title: Re: Idiot Compassion
Post by: sunnydays on September 23, 2007, 12:45:10 PM: I really love this thread -- everything you've said Finding Peace. Thanks for sharing.
Title: Re: Idiot Compassion
Post by: lighter on September 23, 2007, 01:33:53 PM: Ahem... Peace.

Thanks for your honesty.

It's appreciated, even if I don't agree with everything you've written.....

but of course I find I do, so ........ I am grateful as well: )

Truly.

It's not always necessary to be understood but.... it surely feels good to stand in the glow, every once in a while.

As far as Idiot Compassion.....It's a funny ole thing to refuse to participate, for you give up the ability to receive it, as well. :shock:

::whispering:: I'm good with that.....

and I promise to return the gift.

Now.... for the really important topic!

HALLOWEEEEEEN IS ALMOST HERE!
[/b]

::running around doing the Halloween Happy Dance, which looks supsiciously like the reg happy dance::

Yay yay yay yay Yay YAY! Yay yay yay yay Yay YAY!

I LOVE Halloween..... drinks all around! (make mine with extra hemlock, nice and stout!)

So..... you think you wanna wear the armbands of Wonderwoman and wield the rope of truth, do ya?

I think they'll look great on you.... btw....

especially with your newly fashioned leather breast armor.....

I'm sorry.... I couldn't bring myself to do the matching bronze rope theme....

Simply wouldn't do, but....

we can discuss the very cool high waisted fluffy fur (pretty darned short) skirt with matching fur fluffs on the boots. I thought it was a bit late for sandals..... getting cooler here and all.

Would you be willing to stow the rope as a tail? I just like the idea :D
Title: Re: Idiot Compassion
Post by: isittoolate on September 23, 2007, 02:14:34 PM: hi Peace
Thank you your post to me
I am doing well with the broken leg. Eveything is under control.

My brother did not know of my broken leg either but will if Ruth told him by email,

Yes Ruth I will converse with, and on the basis that I was a separate sister not to be talked about to the others, and my words would not go any further. It appears they have.

I am not into the phony concerns from the other two sisters. (N sister wouldn't email anyway)

My move was the best thing for me re my FOO and daughter

Love
Izzy

[attachment deleted by admin]
Title: Re: Idiot Compassion
Post by: Bella_French on September 23, 2007, 07:13:46 PM: However, by the time I got to the last paragraph, the thought occurred to me that maybe, by going NC, I have shown true compassion – both for myself and for my M. Instead of living a lie and staying in an abusive relationship with my M - maybe my actions will be the impetuous for her to examine her own part in the pathology, and by doing so grow? Seems a bit presumptuous of me to assume that she needs to examine anything?

Shortly thereafter it occurred to me that with true Ns – it doesn’t really matter does it? No matter what you do or say, be it the truth or idiot compassion - they will always mutate it to suit their agenda.

Dear finding Peace,

This is an interesting question, and it pretty much sums up why I do not identify very well with the term `enabling'. For starters, the term kind of implies that we can influence other people's addictions or mental illness through acts of compassion (or lack thereof), and that others can somehow be partly responsible for mental illness or addictive behavior.

But I do not agree with this, as both of these situations occur, as we know, due to childhood trauma and take a lot of personal commitment (from the sufferer) to overcome. As i understand it,NPD or addiction can't be `cured' by someone else setting some boundaries with them. In any case, I have only known of people changing such behaviour when they received serious professional help and/or made a serious commitment to do so for their own sake.

I feel that boundaries are not for the addict or mentally ill person; they are really for people around them when they feel they are being harmed.

Anyway, thanks for th interesting discussion Peace!

X Bella
Title: Re: Idiot Compassion
Post by: finding peace on September 23, 2007, 08:19:28 PM: Dear Sunnydays,

Thank you so much!!!

((((((((((Welcome to VESMB - I am glad you found this place))))))))))))

Peace
Title: Re: Idiot Compassion
Post by: finding peace on September 23, 2007, 08:24:41 PM: To everyone else who posted - I have to take a break tonight - gotta bad migraine (feels like a vice clamp around my head).

Thanks for responding - will try to post tomorrow.

((((Everyone)))))
Title: Re: Idiot Compassion
Post by: Ami on September 23, 2007, 08:42:57 PM: Dear Peace,
Really strong coffee taken at the beginning of a migraine can stop it. Coffee constricts(i think) the blood vessels. The migraine opens them too much.
Whichever way it works, coffee can help or even stop it . Love Ami
Title: Re: Idiot Compassion
Post by: Certain Hope on September 23, 2007, 09:00:03 PM: (((((((Peace))))))) Prayers for you to feel better soon... and rest well!

The computer screen in midst of a migraine is torture, I know.

Darkness and a hot damp sock across forehead (microwaved?) can bring some relief.

I'm so sorry you're in pain. Will be thinkin of you.

With love,
Carolyn
Title: Re: Idiot Compassion
Post by: lighter on September 24, 2007, 06:47:46 AM: Are you sure they're migrains Peace?

I have a friend who was given an injection on a plane once.... by a doctor who saw him suffering with a headache.

He gets cluster headaches.

Anyway..... the injection worked like a charm and he's living without all that fear and pain now.

I'll ask him what it is and how it works: /

((Peace))
Title: Re: Idiot Compassion
Post by: Ami on September 24, 2007, 10:26:08 AM: Dear Peace,
When I first came on the board,I had really bad stomach aches all the time. I always had DGL (licorice tablets) that soothe the stomach -- with me. When I was on the board,I was always sucking on them. I hardly need them anymore,I am so much better ,as my emotions heal.
Just my particular situation Love Ami
Title: Re: Idiot Compassion
Post by: finding peace on September 24, 2007, 05:46:18 PM: Dear Bella,

I have been thinking of your post. A lot of wisdom there.

You said:
Quote
For starters, the term kind of implies that we can influence other people's addictions or mental illness through acts of compassion (or lack thereof), and that others can somehow be partly responsible for mental illness or addictive behavior.
Quote

In my view, it depends on what type of dysfunction we are talking about.

Take a drug addict for example. If I offer true compassion, which in this case may be an intervention, I may have influenced the dysfunction if they accept it and go off drugs. On the other hand, they may not accept it. I have offered true compassion and may have influenced the outcome – but either way I don’t own the outcome - the person addicted to drugs owns it. If I offer idiot compassion, in this case an extreme example would be giving the drug addict drugs because I can’t stand to see them go through withdrawal. I am not responsible for the person being a drug addict, but I would feel personally resonsible for enabling the addication (and ultimately all I have done is assuaged my own feelings because I couldn't stand to see them in pain). Extreme case I know.

With true Ns or Ps – I think you are right. No matter how much compassion we give them, they will take whatever you give them and use it to their advantage, offentimes against you. I believe that there is no influencing a true N, and in fact, they are exactly the type to take the word enabling and use it to place blame on the person trying to help them.

And – I think this is one of the key factors that Ns use to manipulate people. They use a person’s empathy or compassion against them – and it creates a real vicious cycle.

You also said
Quote
NPD or addiction can't be `cured' by someone else setting some boundaries with them.
Quote

Nope – they can’t. It has been my experience that even to attempt to set boundaries with a true N will backfire – IME, an N will see a boundary as a challenge that must be demolished (I’ve known some pretty nasty Ns).

The very nature of the disease makes it a double bind in getting help. They have to admit something is truly wrong and that they need help before any change can be made – and that goes against the very nature of the disorder. I read once of an N who was able to get help and turn his life around – and he said it was almost impossible. He said it took a huge, negative, life-altering experience that he could not hide from and years and years of therapy before his N diagnosis was reversed. Interesting though – it was reversible in his case – but no amount of outside influence got him to the point where he could admit that he needed a change. It was his own undeniable devastation that prompted his seeking to change.

Very thought provoking - thanks!

Peace
Title: Re: Idiot Compassion
Post by: finding peace on September 24, 2007, 05:51:33 PM: Ami, Carolyn, Lighter, and CB,

Thank you so much for your words of comfort. Not used to those. I have the migraine dregs today – but it is far better than the actual migraine.

((((everyone))))

Ami – was your second post a gentle nudge :wink:. You are right, it most likely is stress influenced – work has been a bear. I used to get migraines all the time. They were cyclical so I think they were influenced by hormones. Was placed on a BP med a while ago and that helped, but every once in awhile they break through. I usually try coffee (for me I found that it helps to load it up with sugar – usually drink coffee black, but for some reason the sugar seems to help so there may be a hypoglycemia factor there).

Lighter and CB – depending on when that injection was given (if it was a number of years ago), it might have been Imitrex before they made it in pill form. For a long time Imitrex was only available by injection. I had the pill form for migraines a long time ago, but can’t take it anymore. (hmmmm – I think I am going to have to look into morphine or maybe a horse tranquilizer :shock: )

Carolyn, I usually go for cold when it is a migraine, don’t know why; haven’t tried heat. Will do that next time. I am glad to hear that you got through the Dentist's appt. ok. Not easy I know - and I can totally relate to the clenching hands. I can also relate to the expense :x . I also do not mind in the slightlest that you moved the other post. I have to go out for a bit, but will try to get back tonight.

Again, thanks for all of your concern!
Peace
Title: Re: Idiot Compassion
Post by: finding peace on September 24, 2007, 05:53:14 PM: Hi Izzy,

I had a similar thing happen to me. I had a relative who could not keep information to herself no matter how many times I asked that she not tell others. The only thing I could do in that situation was to limit my discussions with her to things that I was ok with her telling others (she could not help herself – it was almost pathological).

It was very, very, frustrating – especially after I set a boundary around the conversation, she agreed, and then went out and did the opposite :x. She lost my trust after that.

I am sorry that your sister did this.

Peace
Title: Re: Idiot Compassion
Post by: Bella_French on September 24, 2007, 07:04:19 PM: In my view, it depends on what type of dysfunction we are talking about.

Dear finding Peace,

I can totally agree with this comment! Very wise words.

Take a drug addict for example. If I offer true compassion, which in this case may be an intervention, I may have influenced the dysfunction if they accept it and go off drugs. On the other hand, they may not accept it.

My experience with interventions is that they only work if a threat is involved, and that once the threat or `control' is removed, or the addict otherwise becomes less fearful, the motivation to quit the addiction is also removed. A typical example is the addict who just leaves their relationship to avoid the `threat', or quits because his peers have a great influence in their life and shame them into quitting. Then some sort of stress comes along, and the addict just goes back to their old ways, often in secret.

If I offer idiot compassion, in this case an extreme example would be giving the drug addict drugs because I can’t stand to see them go through withdrawal. I am not responsible for the person being a drug addict, but I would feel personally resonsible for enabling the addication (and ultimately all I have done is assuaged my own feelings because I couldn't stand to see them in pain). Extreme case I know.

I guess you could also say that having an intervention is also about assuaging the feelings of those around the addict, just in a different way?.

Also, my main issue with informaton surrounding substance addiction, is that the examples I've read to illustrate it are always `extreme examples', inspiring imagery of the ghettos, when the life of the addict has spiraled out of control. Usually they talk about hard drugs, or extreme alcoholism blended in with violence, abuse, and criminal activity, when most addicts do not conduct themselves this way necessarily.

I think the majority of substance abusers are highly functional, and non criminal or violent, if you include smokers and people who drink every night after work in this picture.

My main point i guess, is that I feel that I still have a lot to learn about this, and the extreme examples I've found in co-D literature, combined with the necessity to believe in God, and the ` black and white' type of proposed solutions, have not fit scenarios I've found myself in personally, nor my personal belief systems surrounding being agnostic and personal responsibility for ones actions.

Its all a bit frustrating, i guess. But i thank you so much for the opportunity to discuss this topic; it holda personal interest for me, based on my past struggles with my ex.

X Bella
Title: Re: Idiot Compassion
Post by: Hopalong on September 24, 2007, 07:36:39 PM: Hi Peace...

I wonder if you've ever tried the herb feverfew? I hear it really helps.

My mother has had migraines for years. Now she has an Rx for Maxalt, which she takes at the first sign.
It's more effective than anything else she's tried.

gentle very gentle forehead-stroke,
Hops
Title: Re: Idiot Compassion
Post by: finding peace on September 24, 2007, 08:29:00 PM: Dear Bella,

I am sorry if I hit a nerve – was not my intent at all.

I was using the extreme example to illustrate a point, and I am afraid it is about the most I know about addiction – except that both my parents were alcoholics.

I think I understand what you are saying. Is it like Steve’s model – whereby we are in control of ourselves regardless of what goes on around us?

In the case (sorry) of the extreme drug user, if you put drugs in front of them, it is not enabling because it is the sole responsibility whether or not the drug user picks them up, and therefore, there is no such thing as enabling?

This is a real stretch for me. I love this model, but haven’t quite gotten to the point of adopting it as I vacillate between believing in complete autonomy and the theory that we all influence each other. Kinda like the butterfly in Beijing story – where the butterfly flaps its wings in Beijing and we end up with a hurricane in the states.

I do really like this model tho.

Much love to you and again, I am sorry if I struck a nerve :(

Peace
Title: Re: Idiot Compassion
Post by: finding peace on September 24, 2007, 08:31:43 PM: ((((Thanks Hops - I am going to look into those))))))
Title: Re: Idiot Compassion
Post by: Bella_French on September 24, 2007, 09:06:53 PM: Dear finding peace,

Oh I'm so sorry- no you didn't strike a nerve, as you word things so well and with such care in your tone, always. I should have let you know that my `issue' wasn't with your post at all; it just reminds me of the many `superfical' books I've read on the topic, you know? You didn't upset me at all. I'm just terrible at expressing myself properly.(sorry!) And hugs to you, for being so caring.

I'm not familiar with `steves' model ? But it does sound like what I believe, sort of. I really do agree that people influence one another to various degrees, but only when we give them permission to (or when we're children). I guess I hold very strong views about my own personal accountability for my actions, and i feel the same about others. Its remarkably empowering, although its not easy to overcome a victim mentality when you've been victimised, I definately relate to that!

Thanks so much for writing; I'm sorry to hear about your parents drinking. That must have been hard, growing up.

X Bella

EDIT: I just wanted to add an afterthought...in the example you used of giving someone drugs who is vulnerable to addiction and going through withdrawral, or offering fattening foods to someone who is a dieter...that sort of thing...I learned that this was called `sabotage' rather than enabling, and usually occurs because the other person has a vested interest in the addict being ill. So I can see what you mean about `influencing' someone who is clearly vulnerable. That makes sense to me.
Title: Re: Idiot Compassion
Post by: Ami on September 24, 2007, 09:53:37 PM: Dear Peace,
When I read Storms post,I saw that I got it ALL wrong in my first posts about it. Then I thought, maybe this happened so you could give me that wonderful life changing answer that you gave me.I really think that it did b/c I was having an emotional block to understanding the topic. However,I think that I have it now. i think that I have an example of not giving "idiot compassion with my H.
I have started to get my own voice back, thanks to you on the board. One day, something in me just shifted and I 'knew" that I would not be abused by him any more. I did not scream, talk in a loud voice etc. I spoke in a very low, deliberate voice. He "got" it that something had changed.
He CANNOT act the way he did before b/c I have too much inherent value(now) to absorb it .
So, he is healing from his FOO b/c I am healing. So, I was being compassionate to him by not LETTING him abuse me., He has started facing his FOO issues, just as I am. We are starting to have fun together and feel a little closeness.He is healing b/c I would not allow him to abuse me anymore.
By Jove, I think I got it! Love Ami
Title: Re: Idiot Compassion
Post by: Bella_French on September 24, 2007, 10:20:40 PM: Dear Ami,

That is such wonderful news. I got the sense that this is where things we headed for the two of you, when you wrote about the good experiences you had before your party. It is just so wonderful to hear the changes in your relationship. Thankyou for the good news.

love Bella
Title: Re: Idiot Compassion
Post by: Ami on September 24, 2007, 10:36:42 PM: You are so sweet,.Bella. I could not see my part in it, enough.I was in a "trance" about an "abusive man"
Yes, he was abusive,but I had a part in the abusive SYSTEM. He is not an N like my mother. The BEST you can do with my M is train her. She is like a dog that you keep having to "spank" when he jumps on the sofa.
My H does have empathy. So , that is a whole other can of worms that a person who has an N for a mate. Then,it might be hopeless.
However, I am blessed that my H is not "hopeless" and I have a lot of hope in life-- thanks to the board.
Love Ami
Title: Re: Idiot Compassion
Post by: Iphi on September 24, 2007, 10:42:36 PM: Dear Ami - my H has an N dad as well. My learning about Ns has helped him and has opened up a whole new horizon in our relationship. My wish is the same will prove to be the case for you. It is great when we can work to bring each other growth and flourishing.
Title: Re: Idiot Compassion
Post by: finding peace on September 25, 2007, 06:51:20 PM: You are most welcome Stormchild. And thank you - especially for this:

Quote
Peace to you. May you find it - and may it stay.
Quote

Peace
Title: Re: Idiot Compassion
Post by: finding peace on September 25, 2007, 07:02:20 PM: Dear Bella,

No worries - I understand. I think I sensed your frustration, and was concerned that I had caused it. Thanks for explaining. I think you express yourself extremely well. The tone I sense from your posts is always soothing, gentle, and kind.

Steve is a poster here - I don't think he has posted recently, but I haven't been able to keep up.

You gave me the answer to a problem I have really been struggling with for awhile now.

You said (to paraphrase) people influence each other but only if we allow them. This is exactly what I needed to hear!!!!!

Total autonomy just sound so isolated - a lot like the walls I built as a child. Walls that let no one in. I love the thought of total autonomy, but struggled with the thought that I was cutting myself off - just as I did as a child. Your solution is the gray area -

Seems so obvious now ::::smaking myself upside the head (gently)::::; - I was really stuck in the black and white (all or nothing) of totaly autonomy vs total openness!

Thank you so much!!

Peace
Title: Re: Idiot Compassion
Post by: finding peace on September 25, 2007, 07:04:33 PM: Yep Ami - that is it!

I too am very glad to hear that your relationship with your husband has taken a turn for the better.

(((((Ami)))))

Peace
Title: Re: Idiot Compassion
Post by: Bella_French on September 25, 2007, 08:45:46 PM: Dear finding Peace,

Thanks so much for writing; your letter really uplifted me! It is so nice to know that I could help a little. I totally agree with you about autonomy; so long as people interact, I agree that we are responsible for how we treat one another. And yet we all have the power of choice (regarding our own reactions), even if we don't always see the choices that are available to us. I definitely see how these two thoughts can seem to conflict at times, whilst both being true. Thanks for explaining that to me.

X Bella