Voicelessness and Emotional Survival Message Board
Voicelessness and Emotional Survival => Voicelessness and Emotional Survival Message Board => Topic started by: Bella_French on October 21, 2007, 03:15:24 AM
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i just stumbled across this book at Amazon today, which appears to be written by the author of ``children of the self absorbed' (which is supposedly a very good book).
The title is: ``Loving the Self-Absorbed: How to Create a More Satisfying Relationship with a Narcissistic Partner '' by Nina W. Brown
Has anyone read it or have any opinions about it? The reviews at Amazon ranged from outrage, to people in denial who welcomed it, to N's who thought it was great, to general reviewers who thought it was helpful in some ways.
On the surface, I'm thinking this is an irresponsible book, trying to capitalize off victims of N-abuse who are at that phase where they have become aware of NPD, but wish to cling onto denial because separation is so hard. I remember that phase well, and the last thing I would have needed is an excuse to avoid reclaiming my life.
What do you guys think? I'd love hear some other opinions about this.
X Bella
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Bella,
Although I think Children of the Self Absorbed is a great book, this one (although I haven't read it) sounds a bit like an author cashing in on the previous readership, to get more sales (i.e. from the ones in denial). The idea in the title is flawed, IMO - if you're with an N partner, there's no future for you unless you get out. Trying to keep any kind of relationship going has to be at YOUR expense (I know, I tried that one for 6 years). It doesn't work, you just end up colluding in the grinding into the dust of your own self-esteem. Trying to make it work just prolongs the time when you have to get away, and makes it harder.
What on earth is her idea of a 'more satisfying relationship'? One where you're not hit so much? Not vilified so much? Not humiliated so much? Not mentally abused so much?
Sorry, don't understand ! :shock:
Janet
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Janet and Bella-
I haven't read the book either- maybe it just has one page which says in large bold letters "Stop all contact with Ns immediately !!"
Maybe its a joke book?!?!?
Love,
Changing
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I've heard of the book, but I haven't read it. I just want to know, why would you want to?
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Is there such a thing as an N partner?
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I have no idea how a marriage can survive if one person is an N and the other person is committed to truth and health. I see my Fil and wonder how he manages his marriage (which feels so perfect, frankly). I have decided that he must have bought into the "Truman Show" qualities and I am sure he must be codep, and not very emotionally aware within himself. I think there is a whole lot of denial. He has been in fetters for much of the marriage.....and gladly sacrifices expressions of himself for her. Lately, I see him push back and stand up for himself. Which I think is long overdue. Other than that, I have no idea how they manage it. I don't think she (NMil) is overtly abusive. I think she is perhaps atypical in that she is so profoundly afraid that she can't allow herself any overt action -- unless she is absolutely safe to do so.
I wonder if this book's only redeeming quality would be to pull coping strategies for dealing with N's that a person is not able or willing to severe contact with.
I must admit.....it would be a skeptical read.
Poppy
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Bella,
I go back and forth with this idea too. There is a website, too, comparing Ns to six-year olds. In it, is says that they are not all bad - they can be fun in ways others aren't, spontaneous, etc. I thought about this, but, I have to say... in light of the fact that my mother does exactly what she wants all the time and has no care for anyone else int he world, I have no great desire to have a relationship with her. I don't wish good for her. I don't wish happiness for her. I tried to do all these things because I need to erase anger and meanness in my life. But there are many times that I wish she would just have something awful happen to her. She deserves it. Is that cruel, or what??? And it is now like me, but that is how I am feeling right now.
I don't think I have any desire to have a sweet relationship with the woman who was responsible for making me into a self-hating person.
Interesting topic, Bella.
Love, beth
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I think its really helpful to remember that every person who is dealing with an N in her life is not able to go NC.
I agree, CB.
I have this book, but I'm not sure I read all of it; I've read so many, so they blur.
But, I think CB is correct: The book tells you how to co-exist w/Ns (use boundaries, etc) because not everyone can or wants to go NC.
sally
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Hi Beth,
I go back and forth with this idea too.
I understand that it's a hard decision to make, so why not experiment a bit? Perhaps read this Nina Brown book, see what she suggests and then experiment a bit by withdrawing from your NPs/NM/N FOO and see how it feels.
You don't have to go NC cold turkey all at once.
Best to you,
Love,
sally
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Dear Beth,
I never heard you sound so 'real" with your anger toward your M.I think that anger is a good stage(I am in it now) b/c prior to anger is depression( where we take all the blame on ourselves like they taught us to)--bleh Love Ami
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Thankyou everyone for replying! I'm glad so many of you find the title of this book ridiculous too (and thanks for the humorous replies:)
I can believe that the content could be inadvertently helpful for setting boundaries with N-bosses and N's who we have to be around temporarily. That makes sense to me, although the title really lets it down in terms of credibility and appeal..
`Loving the self absorbed'- how to create a more satisfying relationship with a Naricssist partner' definitely implies that its possible to give your heart romantically to an N, and that it can be `satisfying'. lol.
X Bella
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(((((((((((Thanks Ami)))))))))))
I think I am feeling a bit raw... and, you are right, it must be time to deal with something regarding my NM.
((((()))))))))))
Love, Beth
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`Loving the self absorbed'- how to create a more satisfying relationship with a Naricssist partner' definitely implies that its possible to give your heart romantically to an N, and that it can be `satisfying'. lol.
Hi Bella,
I don't read it that way, because that interpretation, as you have shown, is ridiculous.
I read it as how to deal with Ns so that they do not drive you crazy. The satisfaction is that you can deal w/ an N (using boundaries, distancing yourself) and still retain your self esteem and sanity.
love,
sally
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In it, is says that they are not all bad - they can be fun in ways others aren't, spontaneous, etc. I thought about this, but, I have to say... in light of the fact that my mother does exactly what she wants all the time and has no care for anyone else int he world, I have no great desire to have a relationship with her. I don't wish good for her. I don't wish happiness for her. I tried to do all these things because I need to erase anger and meanness in my life. But there are many times that I wish she would just have something awful happen to her. She deserves it. Is that cruel, or what???
Beth, I know just what you mean, and I can really empathize with this. I've talked about the guilt I have over this very issue with my T a lot. I think it's awful that I can't feel about my mom, the way other people feel about their parents. The truth is, that I wish she would get on with the process of dying, so maybe the rest of us could have peace. She says she's so ill, and that her doctor has only given her a couple of years to live. She acts like she's dead now. I feel so terrible about that. I'm so glad that I'm not the only one. ((((beth))))
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Bella,
I go back and forth with this idea too. There is a website, too, comparing Ns to six-year olds. In it, is says that they are not all bad - they can be fun in ways others aren't, spontaneous, etc. I thought about this, but, I have to say... in light of the fact that my mother does exactly what she wants all the time and has no care for anyone else int he world, I have no great desire to have a relationship with her. I don't wish good for her. I don't wish happiness for her. I tried to do all these things because I need to erase anger and meanness in my life. But there are many times that I wish she would just have something awful happen to her. She deserves it. Is that cruel, or what??? And it is now like me, but that is how I am feeling right now.
I don't think I have any desire to have a sweet relationship with the woman who was responsible for making me into a self-hating person.
Interesting topic, Bella.
Love, beth
Dear Beth,
I'm sorry that you're hurting today; I can totally understand your feelings about your mother, and how this topic could be triggering.
I feel that I have very good boundaries with N's now (sadly, from too much exposure to them) and I mostly know how to stay a step ahead and avoid abuse from them.
But it is not satisfying to me in any way to lie, manipulate, or `be fake', and thats what it takes to have boundaries with N's. I think that Sam Vaknin is correct in suggesting that people who do this on a regular basis become N's themselves.
I think we all have choices about who we want to become and who we want as partners, even when they are hard to make. I'd prefer to be around good people, where I can be me, instead of cultivating a nature that I do not want to have. How can being like an N, promote self esteem?
Anyway, sorry for the rant:) i guess the title of that book is ridiculous and triggering to me too.
X Bella
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Dear Beth,
You sound like you are healing more(to me).You sound clearer and more focused. I think that you are coming out of more denial about your M( and F)
If so====,it is really,really painful. However,it will be for the best,
I am in the exact same situation. Last night,I had one of the most painful times I have ever had.
I really saw that my M was 'crazy" and that she wanted me to be crazy ,too.
When I saw the truth , she totally rejected me--just like that
The ONLY way that I can have a relationship with her is to speak the SAME language--- craziness.
That must be why she hates my Aunt so much. My M is so jealous of anyone who has anything "better' than she does.
Good confidence and self esteem could NEVER be tolerated by her. She would tear it down like a cat fighting for it's life.
That is why she rejected me so totally. She saw strength and power. She saw self esteem. She went 'ballistic" b/c it was not supposed to be that I ever got well, strong, self loving. How in hell did I ever escape her trap?
She is in a RAGE against me.
Love Ami
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Good confidence and self esteem could NEVER be tolerated by her.
Ami,
I think this is a big N trait. In my experience, if an N sees good confidence and self esteem, they will tear it down like a cat fighting for it's life. And, this hurts all the more when our NMs do this to us, their children.
That is why she rejected me so totally. She saw strength and power. She saw self esteem. She went 'ballistic" b/c it was not supposed to be that I ever got well, strong, self loving. Sad, but true. It boggles my mind that NMs do this. It's like destroying our souls.
love,
sally
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On the surface, I'm thinking this is an irresponsible book, trying to capitalize off victims of N-abuse who are at that phase where they have become aware of NPD, but wish to cling onto denial because separation is so hard. I remember that phase well, and the last thing I would have needed is an excuse to avoid reclaiming my life.
What do you guys think? I'd love hear some other opinions about this.
It seems to me this sort of book might be of use to some people. In my situation, I believe both of my parents could be labeled "self absorbed" but neither likely qualifies as having full blown NPD. So I've tried to keep a sort of "arms length" relationship. We stay cordial, but I recognize I have to find my real relationships elsewhere. To go "NC" would create a family wide drama which just fuels the enmeshment. The book "Children of the self Absorbed" was useful to me.
I do wonder, however, if there is much new content which wasn't in the first book. It could be a way of cashing in on the topic.
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I did not like Children of the Self Absorbed".I loved Vakinins book. Children of the Self Absorbed seemed to leave me with a sense of "Say it already".
It seemed like it tried to make NPD s/thing that could be tolerated in some way.
I read Vaknin after 'Children..."
Vaknin really hurt,but my feeling is "How can you make NPD "nice'?. NPD is horrible, Being a D of an NPD is like being in a war that never ends .It is as bad as Vaknin says that it is.
I would rather just say it as it is which Vaknin did (iMO). Ami
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I haven't read the second book, but just in terms of language, one thing I've found important as a distinction (sometimes I forget about it when we refer to "an N"):
an N = shorthand for a person with Narcissistic Personality Disorder
an Nish person, or person w/many N traits = a self-absorbed person who has some but not all of the NPD criteria
I can imagine many ongoing relationships with "narcissistic people" -- but not with full-blown NPD people.
The whole thing's on a continuum...and we here are involved, or have been, with different degrees of narcissism. And most often it's our own diagnosis since so few resources peg them any better than we do. (And I have Ntraits too, but don't have NPD.)
I lapse back into referring to my mother as "Nmother" when I should say "Nish mother"...for example. Though most often, I think of her as Nish+.
Hops
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There is a HUGE difference between NPD(my M) and Nish (my H.)( I diagnosed them.) However,my M has been in therapy for 30 years and they all got it wrong so....so much for professional diagnosis. Ami
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I did not like Children of the Self Absorbed".I loved Vakinins book. Children of the Self Absorbed seemed to leave me with a sense of "Say it already".
It seemed like it tried to make NPD s/thing that could be tolerated in some way.
I read Vaknin after 'Children..."
Vaknin really hurt,but my feeling is "How can you make NPD "nice'?. NPD is horrible, Being a D of an NPD is like being in a war that never ends .It is as bad as Vaknin says that it is.
I would rather just say it as it is which Vaknin did (iMO). Ami
Thanks for the comparison, Ami; its good to hear your opinion as someone who has read literature from both authors. I've heard a lot of criticism of Vaknin due to his being an NPD sufferer himself, but to be fair I can say that opinions did fit most closely with my own experiences with a wide variety of N's and N'ish people. I consider his work to be detailed and insightful, empowering, and groundbreaking in terms of co-D type literature.
X Bella
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I haven't read the second book, but just in terms of language, one thing I've found important as a distinction (sometimes I forget about it when we refer to "an N"):
an N = shorthand for a person with Narcissistic Personality Disorder
an Nish person, or person w/many N traits = a self-absorbed person who has some but not all of the NPD criteria
I can imagine many ongoing relationships with "narcissistic people" -- but not with full-blown NPD people.
The whole thing's on a continuum...and we here are involved, or have been, with different degrees of narcissism. And most often it's our own diagnosis since so few resources peg them any better than we do. (And I have Ntraits too, but don't have NPD.)
I lapse back into referring to my mother as "Nmother" when I should say "Nish mother"...for example. Though most often, I think of her as Nish+.
Hops
Dear Hops,
I can understand. I think theres a huge difference between NPD and N'ish traits too.
I also think its comes down to whether or not you actually like the person:)
X bella
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Bella,
Maybe not even whether you like the person, but whether they are able to have any emotion at all towards anything or anyone, past the thought of "Mine." Are people with NPD sociopaths? Does anyone know if the disorder falls under that heading?
Love, Beth
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Oh, CB,
I worked for a woman who was that horrible. Reading that book and watching the movie sent me directly back into that situation. I had to leave the job. It was just what I wanted in a job, but she was so cruel. She tried her hardest to "break" me, daily. Everyone feared her, so it wasn't until I was leaving that I was told by many that they couldn't imagine how I could deal with her. In fact, in my life, I have had so many bosses of that type - very cruel, heartless. My last boss was Nish, but kind enough.
I think you are right about there being a scale - impossible to just annoying. As for marriage - even having had a sweet husband, I don't think I would marry again - especially while I had children. I count myself as very lucky that my husband turned out to be the kind of man I thought he was.
Interesting thread, and irksome... it's like having a book that is Co-existing with the Alligator in Your Backyard. Do you remove the alligator (especially if it could attack the kids). If you love animals, do you just feed it and hope to keep it happy? Do you call animal control? Do you shoot it? Do you ignore it and hope it won't bite you too hard?
Love, Beth