Voicelessness and Emotional Survival Message Board
Voicelessness and Emotional Survival => Voicelessness and Emotional Survival Message Board => Topic started by: Gabben on December 06, 2007, 04:57:57 PM
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This was a interesting read so I thought that I would share it:
http://www.narcissisticabuse.com/goingcrazy.html
"Courage is resistance and mastery of fear, not absence of fear." Mark Twain
Feeling sane is a matter of feeling in control. The narcissist doesn't want us to be in control of our feelings or emotions. He wants us off guard, feeling chaos, despair and need. We end up angry, depressed and sometimes suicidal. But we don't have to. There are ways to navigate this journey. Bruce Gregory's article on how to deal with narcissists is at the end of this page. It's practical, down to earth strategy is exactly what we need to take control and lose the feeling of going crazy.
In myths of old, perilous journeys are metaphors for the trials and tribulations we endure to develop strength. It is important not to have a victim mentality. Don't despair. You are not mentally ill, you are injured. Getting to the other side of this means finding strength that will be with us for the rest of our lives. Life CAN get better. Thanks to Sam for finding some of the quoted passages which I have found invaluable in understanding both myself and how to deal with the narcissist in my life. "Experience is a good teacher, but she sends in awful bills." Minna Antrim
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Just thought I would add to the thread with this superb posting by 'Bornfree' a few days ago.
Certainly is such a wonderful insightful helpful resource.
Grateful for the knowledge.
Leah
DEPRESSION and Frustration and Anger
How we deal with stress, disappointments, and frustration determines the essence of our personality.
Anger may do more harm than any other emotion. First of all it is very common and, secondly, it upsets at least two people - the aggressor and the aggressed against.
There are two problems: how to prevent or control your own anger and how to handle someone aggressing against you. The overall effects of anger are enormous. Frustration tells us: "I'm not getting what I want!" "You are not telling me what I want to hear right now!"
How do we learn to suppress aggression?
We learn to genuinely forgive others. This takes a lot of work and understanding.
Anger can be the result of hurt pride, of unreasonable expectations, or of repeated hostile fantasies.
We may unconsciously use anger to blame others for our own shortcomings, to justify oppressing others, to boost our own sagging egos, to conceal other feelings, and to handle other emotions (as when we become aggressive when we are afraid).
Any situation that frustrates us, especially when we think someone else is to blame for our loss, is a potential trigger for anger and aggression.
What is frustration?
It is the feeling we get when we don't get what we want, when something interferes with our gaining a desired and expected goal.
Anger is feeling mad in response to frustration or injury. You don't like what has happened and usually you'd like to get revenge. Anger is an emotional-physiological-cognitive internal state; it is separate from the behavior it might prompt. In some instances, angry emotions are beneficial; if we are being taken advantage of, anger motivates us to take action (not necessarily aggressive) to correct the situation.
Recognizing anger
We know when we are very mad, but anger and aggression come in many forms, some quite subtle. Look inside yourself for more anger. This list (Madlow, 1972) of behaviors and verbal comments said to others or only thought to ourselves may help you uncover some resentments you were not aware of ...
Direct behavioral signs:
- ASSAULTIVE
- AGGRESSION Overly critical, fault finding, name-calling, whining, sarcasm, prejudice, flashes of temper;
- HURTFUL
- REBELLIOUS
- DIRECT Verbal or cognitive signs
- OPEN HATRED + INSULTS
- CONTEMPT + DISGUST
- CRITICAL
- SUSPICIOUS
- BLAMING
- VENGEFUL
- NAME CALLING
- LESS INTENSE BUT CLEAR "Well, I'm a little annoyed with [fill in blank] "I'm fed up with [fill in blank]
Thinly veiled behavioral signs:
- Distrustful, skeptical
- Argumentative, irritable, indirectly challenging
- Resentful, jealous, envious
- Disruptive, uncooperative, or distracting actions
- Unforgiving or unsympathetic attitude
- Sulky, sullen, pouting
- Passively resistant, interferes with progress
- Given to sarcasm, cynical humor, and teasing
- Judgmental attitude
Thinly veiled verbal signs:
- "No, I'm not mad - I'm just disappointed / annoyed / disgusted / put out / irritated."
- "You don't know what you're talking about."
Indirect behavioral signs:
- WITHDRAWAL
- PSYCHOSOMATIC DISORDERS Tiredness, anxiety, high blood pressure, heart disease.
Actually, college students with high hostility scores had, 20 years later, become more overweight with higher cholesterol and hypertension, had drunk more coffee and alcohol, had smoked more cigarettes, and generally had poorer health (Friedman, 1991).
Signs of Anger
- Depression and guilt
- Serious mental illness
- Self-defeating or addictive behavior, such as drinking, over-eating, or drugs
- Vigorous, distracting activity (exercising or cleaning)
- Excessively submissive, deferring behavior; or
- Crying.
HIDDEN ANGER
It is obvious from these "signs of anger" that anger is frequently a concealed or disguised emotion. And why not? Getting mad is scary ... and potentially dangerous.
One common way of expressing suppressed anger has been given a special name: passive-aggressiveness.
It is releasing your anger by being passive or subtly oppositional. For example, such a person may be "tired," unresponsive, act like he/she "doesn't understand," be late frequently, exaggerate others' faults, pretend to agree ("sure, whatever"), be tearful, be argumentative, be forgetful, deny anger ("Nothing's wrong ..."), procrastinate, and frequently be clumsy or sick (Hankins, 1993).
There is another related form of concealed anger: feeling like a victim.
Feeling victimized assumes that someone or some situation has mistreated you. But a person who specializes in constantly feeling like a victim may not identify or accuse his/her abuser. Instead, he/she generally feels that the world is against him/her, that others vaguely intend to make him/her miserable.
Victims usually feel helpless; therefore, they take little responsibility for what has happened to them. They think they were terribly mistreated in the past but they now seem unable to accept love and support,
e.g. if you offer them help, they never get enough or if you try to cheer them up, it seldom works.
A victim is much more likely to sulk, pout, look unhappy, or lay a guilt trip on something than to get angry.
They play games: "Why does it always happen to me?" or "Yes, but ..." (No-one's ideas or suggestions will do any good).
The self-pitying, pessimistic, sad, jealous victim is surely sitting on a mass of hostility.
Both the passive-aggressive and the victim are likely to be aware of their anger, even though it is largely denied.
Anger expresses itself in many forms:
- Cynic;
- Naysayer;
- Critic;
- Bigot, etc.
Potter-Efron & Potter-Efron (1995) describe ten different styles of expressing anger; this may help you identify your type and help you stop it.
Depression is a critical message that you must change your way of living, thinking or behaving.
Depression is an important opportunity to reevaluate your priorities, and not a "disease" to be smothered or feared; depression is inverted anger, nothing more, so take the time to discover that with which you are angry.
Work through your depression rather than hold onto it as if it were a prized possession.
YOU ARE NOT YOUR DEPRESSION.
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Hi Leah,
Let me get something out:
Is this posting of anger your way of trying to tell me something?
If so will you please be direct with tack? Rather than using my post as an indirect passive way of speaking to me Leah.
If I am wrong I then forgive me for questioning you but I have a really good intuition and sense about things.
I have already apologized to you for making a not so nice comment out of angst. If you have not forgiven me then perhaps it is you who need to read up on anger.
Please don't respond with what on earth are you talking about -- I have no idea what is going on here I was just trying to add to the post...that won't fly with me, or God.
Why did you attach this here when you could have started a new topic?
Nothing I have done on this board since my saying "I'm sorry if I hurt you" has been underhanded or about you.
I have been working and focusing on my own thing and that incudes dealing and overcoming my anger issues that I already feel intensely ashamed about -- I am human.
Peace - I mean no harm I just want to clear the air.
Lise
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i want to say a prayer that two people who believe in God can work out issues with love and respect. We are ALL here to grow. We can help each other. If we can use kindness and humility ---we can all get to the end of the line and our goal ---to find -our voices . Love Ami
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Feeling sane is a matter of feeling in control. The narcissist doesn't want us to be in control of our feelings or emotions. He wants us off guard, feeling chaos, despair and need. We end up angry, depressed and sometimes suicidal
Dear Lise,
Once again you seem to have jumped to a wrong assumption.
I have copied and pasted the above from your post.
Hence, I added to the thread as i thought it was an open thread for anyone here present to post to ......
so I did with ......
Just thought I would add to the thread with this superb posting by 'Bornfree' a few days ago.
Certainly is such a wonderful insightful helpful resource.
Grateful for the knowledge.
Leah
That's all, nothing more, nothing less.
Now, if you wish, I am more than happy to delete my post for you, thereby removing it from your thread.
Lise, from day one, I have only ever extended a warm welcome and encouraged you here, with genuineness.
May God Bless you and guide you with His love and peace.
As my heart is genuine and sincere.
Sincerely,
Leah
Edit: The Thread Topic is ...........(in capital letters) SKILLS FOR DEALING WITH NARCISSISM
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i want to say a prayer that two people who believe in God can work out issues with love and respect. We are ALL here to grow. We can help each other. If we can use kindness and humility ---we can all get to the end of the line and our goal ---to find -our voices . Love Ami
Kindness, humility and gut level honesty shrouded with care and compassion - that is what I want so that is what I will give.
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Feeling sane is a matter of feeling in control. The narcissist doesn't want us to be in control of our feelings or emotions. He wants us off guard, feeling chaos, despair and need. We end up angry, depressed and sometimes suicidal
This above is exactly how I feel from your response except the suicidal part.
I'm done I have spoken my truth.
If this is my stuff then, oh well -- I'm here not to get N supply but to heal.
Peace,
Lise
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Dear Lise,
The Thread Topic is ...........(in capital letters) SKILLS FOR DEALING WITH NARCISSISM
with an article posted ....
and an article posted to add to it ....
for Skills for Dealing with Narcissism.
Love & Peace to you,
Leah
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Hi Leah,
I feel belittled by your responses.
Lise
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Please seek God ,Leah, as you did when we had our "problem". He will show you the way.. Hope I am not butting in. Ami
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Please seek God ,Leah, as you did when we had our "problem". He will show you the way.. Hope I am not butting in. Ami
What?! :shock:
Ami,
What are you doing?
What are you saying?
It was you who sought God, as you say, and PM'd me to apologise
and then you deleted your post on my thread.
Ami, I still have the PM in my Inbox!
Leah
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Dear Leah,
My anger is such a source of shame for me. It hurts so much and it is one thing that I want to let go of more than anything. My anger is a defense against deep hurt. Mostly though, I rarely act on it.
The last few months I have gotten a lot of anger out and I keep working on it. As well as there is not a day goes by that I don't pray and ask God for a forgiving heart and especially to forgive my family -- that is my primary goal in life.
I have to imagine that you have had to deal with your share of anger too. I read your story -- it was horrible what you went through...my heart went out to you.
Yes, I am Christian but I am more human than anything. I'm not out to fool anyone or pretend that I don't have anger...but that does not make me an abuser or an aggressor or even wrong. There is no crime or sin in expressing frustration, there is no crime or sin in expressing angst and there is no crime or sin in feeling anger -- it is what we do with it. We all lash out at times, even the best of us.
If you have had a chance, read my post on Victim Anger....it has been very revealing to me.
For many years I just told myself that I had completely forgiven my Nmom, oh how wrong and in denial I was...Deep down I was full of hatred, shame and hurt. But not today....everyday that I face my pain is a day that I grow closer to loving me and really forgiving my Nmom -- from a far though.
I have tendency to tell the truth to people as I see it which can have a negative effect rather than a loving one -- gotta work on that one. As we say in AA - be patient with me, God's not finished yet :)
I don't want to fight and I am always here if you need support for your intense pain and hurt, if or when it comes up.
Love,
Lise
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My point is simply to say that every human being's role is to look at himself and to try to have his own behavior the best that he can. Love Ami
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IT'S ALL in the GAME
Relational Aggression
Relational Aggression, also known as covert bullying, social aggression or female bullying, is a psychological and emotional form of abuse, hiding behind a smokescreen of lies and manipulation. Relational aggression uses relationships to inflict injury upon another. It's characterized by gossip, teasing, slander and exclusion.
It is mean and cruel.
Contrary to common misconception, relational aggression is not exclusive to females. It mirrors the manipulative political philosophy of 15th century Niccolo Machiavelli, who many herald as a political genius, and whose practice is still alive and well among many areas of our culture.
It is not a girl thing. But it is a problem in female relationships (and male, though they may be experienced somewhat differently).
Principle Players of Relational Aggression
Aggressors are those who use a relationship or relationships as a weapon, to bully, intimidate, control and/or punish a targeted person. The aggressor can be an acquaintance of the target or a dear friend. She can be a long-standing enemy or a new rival.
Targets are the ones who stand in the line of fire. They are often the aggressor’s peer, however, relational aggression can cross all socioeconomic and cultural lines, as well as race, age and sex. No one is afforded automatic immunity.
Collaborators are those who actively join the aggressor, to whatever degree. They can start out as active participants and co-instigators, or they can be, initially, bystanders who are drawn into the drama of relational aggression. They are the relationships through which the aggressor channels most of her negativity toward the target.
Silent Witnesses are bystanders who do not actively participate in any way, either to support the aggression or to stop it. Usually, they feel powerless or fearful to help. Many wind up struggling with guilt for their inaction and may find it difficult to make peace within themselves long after the aggression has stopped.
Enablers are a unique group of bystander, who carry some kind of authority or status within their social network. They can make a difference by virtue of their standing, but don’t. For whatever reasons, they choose to look away or trivialize what little they’re willing to see. This behavior often serves to legitimize the relational aggression, and so in this sense, enablers are not only bystanders but indirect collaborators.
Basic Anatomy
The Drawn Back Bow: Something is said or shared with a third party - a rumor, an assertion, an accusation, a biting remark. It is the springboard from which the damage is done, the precipitating event that becomes the excuse or reason. It can be true or untrue. What matters is the purpose for which it is used.
The Arrow: It affects others - how they look at you and treat you. It's what aggressors hurt you with. Not the information or rumor, itself, as much as the affect it has on other people and their subsequent relationship with you.
The Wound: It affects you - the pain you feel, how you feel about others and how you feel about yourself, as a result of other people's treatment of you. The wound can be little or big. It can be brushed off or eventually healed. For some, it can last a lifetime.
That's why, when someone tells you it doesn't matter what someone else thinks and admonishes you to rise above it, they miss the point, because it's not about someone's opinion or words.
It's about relationships and other people's behavior, because of someone's opinion or words. Sometimes you can walk away. Many times you can't.
This is what relational aggression is all about - inflicting damage through other people.
The rumors and accusations are just a means to that end. Whether childish or serious, true or false or somewhere in between, rumors and accusations are designed to elicit an emotional response from others, with the intention to incite them to hurt you, in some way.
Relational aggression, also, involves more physical abuse, such as "accidental body slams", taunting, teasing, censuring, alienating, and other means to cause the suffering of another person.
The key trait is that whatever methods are used, it is done in concert with and through others.
Relational aggression affects and hurts everyone - aggressor, target, collaborator and witness, alike.
But bear in mind, relational aggression isn't so much about a specific person, a "bitch" we love to hate, as much as a state of mind; a set of choices we all can make. The roles described above are fluid. It's so easy to go from target to aggressor or silent witness to collaborator in just one breath of a choice.
So be mindful of your choices and make them wisely.
Source: http://www.relationalaggression.net/ (http://Source: http://www.relationalaggression.net/)
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Silent Witnesses are bystanders who do not actively participate in any way, either to support the aggression or to stop it. Usually, they feel powerless or fearful to help. Many wind up struggling with guilt for their inaction and may find it difficult to make peace within themselves long after the aggression has stopped.
Amen to that and I am sorry Leah. on edit: I am sorry Lighter - meant to extend my apologies for being a silent witness to you as well.
Guess I am not such a silent witness after all.
I do not like the dynamics I am suspecting on the board lately (may be my trigger), but I don't like it one bit. I am taking a break from the board.
((((((((Love to you all))))))))))
Peace
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Silent Witnesses are bystanders who do not actively participate in any way, either to support the aggression or to stop it. Usually, they feel powerless or fearful to help. Many wind up struggling with guilt for their inaction and may find it difficult to make peace within themselves long after the aggression has stopped
To Leah and Lighter - I am sorry this is has happened to you. I stand as a silent witness also.
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I jumped in in a situation between two people to TRY to be a help for the situation. My point was that in any situation involving people, each person's role is to look at himself
Is that a type of violation in any way?
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IT'S ALL in the GAME
Relational Aggression
Relational Aggression, also known as covert bullying, social aggression or female bullying, is a psychological and emotional form of abuse, hiding behind a smokescreen of lies and manipulation. Relational aggression uses relationships to inflict injury upon another. It's characterized by gossip, teasing, slander and exclusion.
It is mean and cruel.
Contrary to common misconception, relational aggression is not exclusive to females. It mirrors the manipulative political philosophy of 15th century Niccolo Machiavelli, who many herald as a political genius, and whose practice is still alive and well among many areas of our culture.
It is not a girl thing. But it is a problem in female relationships (and male, though they may be experienced somewhat differently).
Principle Players of Relational Aggression
Aggressors are those who use a relationship or relationships as a weapon, to bully, intimidate, control and/or punish a targeted person. The aggressor can be an acquaintance of the target or a dear friend. She can be a long-standing enemy or a new rival.
Targets are the ones who stand in the line of fire. They are often the aggressor’s peer, however, relational aggression can cross all socioeconomic and cultural lines, as well as race, age and sex. No one is afforded automatic immunity.
Collaborators are those who actively join the aggressor, to whatever degree. They can start out as active participants and co-instigators, or they can be, initially, bystanders who are drawn into the drama of relational aggression. They are the relationships through which the aggressor channels most of her negativity toward the target.
Silent Witnesses are bystanders who do not actively participate in any way, either to support the aggression or to stop it. Usually, they feel powerless or fearful to help. Many wind up struggling with guilt for their inaction and may find it difficult to make peace within themselves long after the aggression has stopped.
Enablers are a unique group of bystander, who carry some kind of authority or status within their social network. They can make a difference by virtue of their standing, but don’t. For whatever reasons, they choose to look away or trivialize what little they’re willing to see. This behavior often serves to legitimize the relational aggression, and so in this sense, enablers are not only bystanders but indirect collaborators.
Basic Anatomy
The Drawn Back Bow: Something is said or shared with a third party - a rumor, an assertion, an accusation, a biting remark. It is the springboard from which the damage is done, the precipitating event that becomes the excuse or reason. It can be true or untrue. What matters is the purpose for which it is used.
The Arrow: It affects others - how they look at you and treat you. It's what aggressors hurt you with. Not the information or rumor, itself, as much as the affect it has on other people and their subsequent relationship with you.
The Wound: It affects you - the pain you feel, how you feel about others and how you feel about yourself, as a result of other people's treatment of you. The wound can be little or big. It can be brushed off or eventually healed. For some, it can last a lifetime.
That's why, when someone tells you it doesn't matter what someone else thinks and admonishes you to rise above it, they miss the point, because it's not about someone's opinion or words.
It's about relationships and other people's behavior, because of someone's opinion or words. Sometimes you can walk away. Many times you can't.
This is what relational aggression is all about - inflicting damage through other people.
The rumors and accusations are just a means to that end. Whether childish or serious, true or false or somewhere in between, rumors and accusations are designed to elicit an emotional response from others, with the intention to incite them to hurt you, in some way.
Relational aggression, also, involves more physical abuse, such as "accidental body slams", taunting, teasing, censuring, alienating, and other means to cause the suffering of another person.
The key trait is that whatever methods are used, it is done in concert with and through others.
Relational aggression affects and hurts everyone - aggressor, target, collaborator and witness, alike.
But bear in mind, relational aggression isn't so much about a specific person, a "bitch" we love to hate, as much as a state of mind; a set of choices we all can make. The roles described above are fluid. It's so easy to go from target to aggressor or silent witness to collaborator in just one breath of a choice.
So be mindful of your choices and make them wisely.
Source: http://www.relationalaggression.net/ (http://Source: http://www.relationalaggression.net/)
Grateful thanks that there are those lurking, albeit cautious to speak out, which is understandable, who have rightly seen the game that has been played here. Grateful for the knowledge and awareness.
Truth is, I know what is the truth is, of the whole scenario.
All I did, which in hindsight, I regret taking the time and trouble to do --- was add an article of good knowledge to a thread 'skills/how to'
And I did offer to delete the post, as someone else, of good standing, has frequently suggested to do, for me and for others.
The Lies and Betrayal from someone whom I had supported as a friend, has hurt me, as I am a real person.
Recently, I have received several affirmative life building uplifting and encouraging postings. In particular, the one from Lise and from Hops in response to my having truly forgiven my parents, with Hops genuinely saying that she was in awe.
Such precious pearls so sweet with dew to my soul.
Why can't I keep that?
I don't have an anger issue, but I do see the hidden anger related depression here among my friends, and truly, my heart reaches out with sincerity and genuineness.
All threads and posts, I give of my time to read carefully, and post as I feel I am able to contribute, with sincere support and thoughtfulness.
Please, I implore you, all here, do not work to undo all that has been done to date in my recovery and healing process.
After all the years of hard work and labour, singlehandly, researching and studying, seeking and finding, working through, and finally, reaching my rainbows end.
In the New Year I have plans to step out with a purpose on my new pathway wearing my new pair of shoes.
Please, don't make me dig out my old pair of shoes, or, make me wear your pair of shoes --- because they won't fit me.
Please, don't invalidate me as a person, who is standing with a heart of sincere liberty and freedom, who feels an inner peace, with calm and joy.
Please, allow me to be me, Leah, I have waited patiently for years, in hope, of finding me.
Thank you.
God Bless You All and guide you
as He has wonderfully guided me.
No-one can ever take that away from me.
Sincerely yours,
Love, Leah
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Love you, Leah.
I have watched you grow so much. You will grow. You will wear those new shoes--you will DANCE in them!
Every interaction with every person is another chance to grow. Take it and RUN with it.
Love,
CB
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Leah,
You have every right to work towards being yourself. I hope your 'new shoes' get worn in quickly, and that your 'old shoes' can get thrown to the back of the wardrobe, to lurk among the dust-bunnies! (But then, I bet you don't have dust-bunnies - I do :( )
I don't want to see this forum go through the traumatic cycle again that it seems to, every few months or so. It is so draining, so hurtful, and so unnecessary. Everyone here has been hurt in the past, and we all need to be given the space to have our 'voice'.
Keep that feeling of inner peace, Leah. It's taken you years to find, and you should never have to let it go again.
Janet
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Leah.... you don't have to put on those old shoes.
You can instead ask yourself why someone is acting or speaking the way they are.....
be glad you're not in that space.....
and continue down you path..... shiny new shoes a tappin: )
People do better when they can.
I love your spirit and it pains me to see you struggle like this.
You can't save people from themselves.....
they have to do it for themselves.....
I forgot that lesson, myself.
(((Peace))) I'm not sure I understand why you apologized..... just sorry to see you go.
Come back soon.
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Dear Lighter,
Thank you, but, rest assured, in all honesty, I am not in any pain and peace is truly mine.
And my heart has never ever tried to to save people from themselves, honestly.
Believe me, with my voluntary work training and experience to date I have a proven track record of awareness of the difference.
Peace apologized in context of the entire thread, as she saw and acknowledged a 'Bystander' role which she turned round to one of a commendable witness offering compassionate insightful support with integrity.
As did Mary also.
May I take this opportunity to sincerely thank ((( Peace ))) and ((( Mary ))) for your sight and wisdom and graciousness.
Truly very much appreciated and has been a precious reinstating source of validation to me as a person.
Love, Leah
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Hi Leah,
I have to say I feel really confused. It seems that I am being portrayed as a covert aggressor here?
It hit me last night why you might have thought that my thread: SKILLS FOR DEALING WITH NARCISSISM
was an underhanded play...first because it is in bold letters (you mentioned that it was in bold letter twice and I could not figure out what you were trying to say), well if you look in the link you will see that the article is titled:
SKILLS FOR DEALING WITH NARCISSISM is titled in bold and I cut and past it directly into the subject line.
The other thing that hit me is that we had a recent scuffle on the board so I figured you were feeling sensitive and perhaps were reading into my behavior with my posts that perhaps I was passively directing something to you? NOT - as I said before, after I said immediately -- "I am sorry if I hurt you." I moved on and was focusing on NOT persuing any actions despite my feelings and perceptions.
I love this article: SKILLS FOR DEALING WITH NARCISSISM -- I had been reading it and studying it for few days before hand because it related to MY own personal life and parents. I like to share things that have helped me an brought some relief to my life - that was my motive.
Also, I posted it because of this line in particular:
"Experience is a good teacher, but she sends in awful bills." Minna Antrim -- I thought others would enjoy that too. Perhaps when I post I should explain my motives so that people won't perceive that I am trying to say something to them?
Having an N mom, my childhood was all about "them." And like you Leah my parents were hostile and WERE out to get me. It sometimes has the effect of perceiving the world as attacking and aggressive. Especially if I am feeling sensitive because someone had recently criticized me, such as I had been critical of you...but that does not make me a covert aggressor.
You may recall from my story Leah that I was verbally abused for a good deal of my childhood. By the time I hit my teens I could no longer take it. I tried to stand up for myself and I expressed my hurt and anger at my moms rages and verbal assaults - what happend?
I was thrown in Juvy hall and taken to a mental hospital because my mom was claiming that I was mentally ill and abusive.
I guess I am still in the hole reliving that drama, just trying to work through it and I know that under my anger, which as I said before is just a defense to try to control my pain, is an intense about of hurt that I face and keep facing. My favorite saying these days has been the tears will wash my eyes so that I can see better...So I can see that the world is NOT out to get me.
Once again, I think you are OK Leah and I think I am OK -- just the way we are.
I ask people on this board not to portray me as a covert aggressor or bully...because I am NOT one and it hurts.
Peace,
Lise
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Dear Lise,
You have incorrectly perceived my reason for typing 'capitals used' as in SKILLS FOR DEALING WITH NARCISSISM.
As my only reason was to convey that the capitals were already in use, nothing more than that, simply a standard procedure.
Otherwise, it could be misconstrued or perceived quite wrongly that I was 'shouting' in my post.
Certainly not a reference to your choice of using capitals in the title of your thread.
Remember, we are engaging in written form.
Hope that helps clarify.
Sincerely yours,
Leah
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Leah: I had the feeling you were pretty well settled in your thoughts..... and feeling secure in them.
Glad to hear it.
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Leah: I had the feeling you were pretty well settled in your thoughts..... and feeling secure in them.
Glad to hear it.
I also ask people not to portray me as mentally unstable and insecure - because I am NOT that either. That underhand remark hurt too :(
Thank you.
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Dear Lise,
Most certainly, I don't perceive that at all.
I understood Lighter's post to be in response to the responsive post that I had made much earlier.
That is my perception and understanding.
Love, Leah
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Leah: I had the feeling you were pretty well settled in your thoughts..... and feeling secure in them.
Glad to hear it.
I also ask people not to portray me as mentally unstable and insecure - because I am NOT that either. That underhand remark hurt too :(
Thank you.
Gabben... Please ask for clarification about something before making assumptions, K?
I didn't have any underhanded meaning intended in that post, I promise.
It was meant for Leah and for Leah only.
Her comments about her shoes concerned me.
She provided clarification.
I acknowledged it.
Sometimes that's all there is to a post but I can appreciate misunderstandings in the wake of board drama.
Give me a shot at just treating you like any newcomer to the board.... bc that's exactly what I intend to do.
This board has a lot to offer everyone and I'd like to extend a warm welcome to you now.
Welcome Gabben.
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Hi Lighter,
Thanks for the welcome. I do not believe you and I have really had a chance to talk or meet yet?
Yes, your comment was directed at Leah but don't we all read this board and is this not a hot thread in terms of some emotions running high?? My common sense tells me to tread very carefully in the wake of such high emotions and sensitivy, correct? Perhaps giving some consideration to all involved in the situation...I think that if anyone checks their gut they will see that I have not been passive but rather extremely direct.
I had just spilled my guts out in a previous post above and the only response from you is a one liner to Leah without even an acknowledgement to me. Not that you owe me that, but I AM here.
It is clear that there are sides being taken -- that also hurts.
I think that if people look closely that will see that I have been forth right and direct to Leah. I have been upfront and honest, as well as kind and WARM...I was taught by a loving boyfriend that it is OK to fight, nothing wrong with it -- but fight fair...no cheap shots.
I'm glad to meet you Lighter I hope that we can get better acquainted and overcome any past stuff...you are here to heal and grow too, I'm sure you know hurt and pain. I have not read your story but when I get a chance I will, if it is posted.
Lise
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Gabben:
I'm sorry if I made you feel attacked or ignored.
I'm stepping past the old stuff and I'd like you to come with, K?
BTW.... you'd be surprised at how folks line up here, with regard to opinions and intensity of feeling.
There aren't 2 sides aligned against each other, though that might have been what was represented to you or seemed the case.
The same people don't always agree and this past stuff isn't going to happen anymore..... though there will be new differences to take it's place: /
The adventure continues....
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Gabben:
I'm stepping past the old stuff and I'd like you to come with, K?
BTW.... you'd be surprised at how folks line up here, with regard to opinions and intensity of feeling.
There aren't 2 sides aligned against each other, though that might have been what was represented to you or seemed the case.
The same people don't always agree and this past stuff isn't going to happen anymore..... though there will be new differences to take it's place: /
The adventure continues....
Hi Lighter,
I appreciate your post above so much -- your cool 8)
Looking at myself and admitting my beautiful :P flaws, the shortcomings that helped me to survive the trauma of my childhood, is hard work. I respect people, people who are willing to take the adventure with me! Hang in there....it is going to be a bumpy thread!
((((LIGHTER))) here for support, encouragement and compassion, if needed.
Lise
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Whew! So glad that's behind us, lol.
Now..... lets start some new threads and see where that takes us 8)
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Dear Lise,
My heart sincerely reaches out to you as I am aware of how the article created feelings that caused you to feel hurt and angst.
And you have bared your soul sharing of what happened to you, which you know, has my deepest empathy and understanding.
Much love to you, Lise.
Genuinely, that all I have to give.
Much love,
Leah
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Dear Lise,
My heart sincerely reaches out to you as I am aware of how the article created feelings that caused you to feel hurt and angst.
And you have bared your soul sharing of what happened to you, which you know, has my deepest empathy and understanding.
Much love to you, Lise.
Genuinely, that all I have to give.
Much love,
Leah
Hi Leah,
Thanks for seeking to understand rather than to be understood.
However, the article you posted did not cause me to feel angst, (could that be a projection on your part?) I never said that rather your posting on my thread caused me to feel angst. Your explanation for posting behind my article still has not proved very sincere to me, but that is just my opinion.
Leah - I am done. I know what you are doing and you do not fool me. Don't worry, I want everyone here to like you and see you as the loving and kind person that you are - I'm not trying to smear you...or betray you. I was just speaking....drum roll.........MY VOICE!
I am taking a break from this board because I have felt bullied and right now I hurt inside. It is not about you or this posting...my feelings are about my FOO and I am stepping back to cry some tears and relive the pain of feeling pushed aside, ignored, denied my true perception, betrayed and rejected --- ouch! I'm glad that I have freinds who genuinely do care with warm super big hearts -
But first... I'm going shopping - retail therapy!!!
Bye now.
Lise
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Hi all:
I just saw this thread and felt compelled to post. I suffer from depression. Serious clinical depression. I have suffered depression since I was very young although I wasn't diagnosed many, many years past my childhood. Not surprisingly, my Nmom and co-D never noticed or took an interest. When I asked my dad to see my therapist with me awhile back, his response was that "some people don't believe in that kind of thing." Neither he nor my Nmom are able or willing to acknowledge the depth of my depression, let alone the reasons for it. My Nmom, of course, is blameless (in her eyes). My dad just takes no interest in anything or anyone other than my mom. I have been on medication for a number of years although nothing really has worked. I've tried many different kinds.
I've heard the theory that depression is "anger inverted". I'm not yet sure if that is true. I do feel angry and resentful at the way I was treated by my Nparents, but my depression is very deep. I feel constant hopelessness, despair and overwhelming sadness. It never goes away. It is so frustrating for me that people in my family don't understand depression. My family members are some of the most un-empathetic people I know. They are incapable of offering emotional support and encouragement. My Nmom, especially, has no use for me or my depression. She regards it as a personal weakness and refuses to understand the reasons behind depression. Of course, my Nsis, who has a host of anxiety problems is a different problem. Whenever she calls with the slightest complaint or problem, my Nmom literally runs to her. Whatever my Nsis goes through is 1,000 times worse than anyone else. She has complete empathy for her. None for me.
I have faced nothing but disappointment in my life and of course, the depression doesn't help matters. Depression has stolen my life from me. No family, no friends, no love, no success of any kind. While depression is a very treatable illness, the truth is treatment does not work in every case. Mine is one of those. Despite many different med cocktails, my depression has not gotten better. Personally, I think my depression is directly linked to my family problems. But it is such a sad illness. I often wish I had the courage to end my situation. It is extraordinarly painful and lonely, this depression.
My wish is for others to try and understand depression better. There's situational depressiona and then there's clinical depression. The latter is a long-term illness that you don't "snap out of". It's ironic that those with depression need empathy and support more than anyone, yet if they come from N families, they are least likely to get it. Worse than that, they are usually criticized or blamed for having depression and for the behaviors and symptoms that accompany it.
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My dad just takes no interest in anything or anyone other than my mom.
Hi Sunblue,
First, as I was reading your post I felt overwhelming compassion for you. Today has been a rough day for me and I can relate much to feeling ashamed for what the world perceives, or might perceive, as a weakness.
When you said above about your Dad must really hurt on some levels -- that feeling of being ignored? The pain can be so great I would not blame you if you needed or wanted to push it as far a way as possible.
Sometimes I think that the people with the most tender hearts are the ones who have needed to push their pain away the most.
I've heard the theory that depression is "anger inverted". I'm not yet sure if that is true. I do feel angry and resentful at the way I was treated by my Nparents, but my depression is very deep. I feel constant hopelessness, despair and overwhelming sadness.
-- I hear your pain and I acknowledge YOU and your deep hurt.
All of your feelings are OK - I suspect that you are pretty OK too.
We all need to hear words of love, spoken words that we are valued, that we are seen as special, that we are important to someone, that we mean something? We need to be affirmed that we are here.
If just reading this brings tears to your eyes it is because you never got these needs really met and that can bring you great depression and despair it sounds like you were ignored by your father and unacknowledged by your Nmom as well as abused in ways that are so subtle but feel so big. Where has the genuine love been in your life? You deserve to be loved.
For years I suffered from depression but I don't think I have suffered exactly what you are experiencing so I am going to be careful because I do not want to dismiss your type of depression. I'm only going to relate my experience but from a nonjudgmental and compassionate place.
Depression, for me, was my anger turned inward. However, my anger was so deeply shamed by my mom that it took years for me to get in touch with it. Then one day - kapoosh! There it was and I was angry and not happy but I also slipped out of depression and I have rarely experienced any depression days except a mild dose depression that usually precedes a bout of tears and a layer of deep pain.
They say that depression is only a symptom of a deeper underlining emotional problem. Usually anger and anger is for me a defense to feeling the hurt of so much betrayal from my own parents.
Depression can be a way that your body is trying to tell you something is not right.
If you want talk about your childhood and feelings, really talk about the pain in your heart I am all ears...I'll be here and others will too - we will hold your hand through the pain. I am a big promoter of tears. They release toxins and help you see reality better.
I have faced nothing but disappointment in my life -- I often wish I had the courage to end my situation. It is extraordinarily painful and lonely, this depression.
I hear your cry for help. I am here. It is OK to feel that way. I would say that you had it pretty rough. But imagine this, God lead you to this thread....perhaps because he loves you and made you.
I'm glad that you are here.
((((sunblue))))
Lise