Voicelessness and Emotional Survival Message Board
Voicelessness and Emotional Survival => Voicelessness and Emotional Survival Message Board => Topic started by: mudpuppy on January 07, 2008, 11:52:42 AM
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The previous usefulness of this board was that a person, whether new or old, could come here and discuss what had occurred to them outside the board.
The present uselessness of this board is that 90% of the discussions are about the board itself and its internal workings and relationships.
These discussions may have a certain limited utility but it's hard to see what it is.
I'm not saying I'm leaving but who wants to constantly listen to or discuss the board itself or who said what about whom in a PM or to listen to a member described as some epithet withut actually being named, as several have been?
Not me. My grassy bank beckons. Should have stayed on it last time.
mud
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Amen! Mud
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Amen! Ami
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Hi, Mr. Mud,
I disagree... from a couple of standpoints. First off, I don't think it's proper to try to manage people's areas of interest in discussion... and I don't think it's practical, either. I can't speak for anyone else, but I know for myself that when I've made a significant emotional investment in something or someone (even if it's an online message board), there's nothing utilitarian about it. In fact, it seems like an oxymoron to me... to try to make an emotional survival board serve a certain utility; and who would determine exactly what that utility should be? Not I !! There are plenty of discussions here in which I have no personal interest, but I wouldn't feel entitled to tell the parties involved that they should be talking about something more useful.
Since I don't know where they are (emotionally) and because I haven't walked in their shoes, how do I know what is useful for them? I don't.
That's all, Mud... just my view.
Carolyn
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I said it in another thread and I will say it here-I am getting a little snippy and for that I am sorry. I find a few topics that are worth reading and I just need to concentrate on those and avoid the others.
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Its probably just a phase, Mud. I still feel safe here. It takes only one other good member to make this board worthwhile to me, but I feel that there are many more than that. What a blessing.
Please don't go. Think of the people whose opinions you value, and direct your discussions to them.
X bella
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Personally I am learning a lot of skill here. How to give comfort, how to express feelings, how to use tact to express feelings, manything that I would never had learn otherwise.
Plus here I can think and answer when I feel ready. In real life you get gut off guard. Here you can count to ten and answer later.
Also, the board is giving me some kindergarten skill that I never learned as a child.
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GO------Lupita! Ami
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Personally I am learning a lot of skill here. How to give comfort, how to express feelings, how to use tact to express feelings, manything that I would never had learn otherwise.
Plus here I can think and answer when I feel ready. In real life you get gut off guard. Here you can count to ten and answer later.
Also, the board is giving me some kindergarten skill that I never learned as a child.
Exactly, Lupita... me, too! Thank you for expressing this so well.
Love,
Carolyn
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I have always found value in your words Mud and admire their sparcity. You always pack a punch INHO.
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Hey mud.... if you wing a mint julep over the fence....
I'll flip ya some gator tots.
Taste like chicken, lol :D
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First off, I don't think it's proper to try to manage people's areas of interest in discussion
Not trying to manage anything. Just said I find most of the current discussions useless. If everyone else finds them useful they are certainly free to engage in them to their heart's content.
In fact, it seems like an oxymoron to me... to try to make an emotional survival board serve a certain utility
Isn't emotional survival a utility?
Perhaps as Lupita said the current board can be helpful, but I wonder how many have left or don't post due to the navel-gazing, thinly veiled aggressive nature of so much of the current discussions. A lot of people first come here to get away from that, not to practice it with strangers.
Please don't go.
As I said, not leaving, just relaxing.
Hey mud.... if you wing a mint julep over the fence....
I'll flip ya some gator tots.
Amphibians don't eat reptiles. That's why I'm on the bank; the food chain goes in the opposite direction. :D
I have always found value in your words Mud and admire their sparcity.
I think that's a compliment, although it seems to imply the less I talk the better. :lol: :P
mud
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God bless you, Mud
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Hey mud.... if you wing a mint julep over the fence....
I'll flip ya some gator tots.
Amphibians don't eat reptiles. That's why I'm on the bank; the food chain goes in the opposite direction. :D
mud
Silly me..... of course amphibians don't eat reptiles.
::slapping forehead::
Leaves more room.....
forJuleps, lol. 8)
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I appreciate your post, Lupine... very much. Many fine points, there! I wish that you were able to post more, but I saw your note on another thread as to why you don't. I hope that your situation will improve soon!
Sincerely,
Carolyn
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Dear Lupine,
Thank you for your most profound insightful, honest and straightforward, post.
Hope that you will be posting more of the same to the board.
Truly valued and appreciated.
Love, Leah
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The emphasis lately on the board dealing with PMs and are they good or bad etc. is an example of how preoccupied we are with how we appear to each other. Actually, we are and should be conveyors of anecdotes which we could learn from and then go out into the world and experiment/experience how we appear/relate to real people! To continue snyping and competing with each other leaves us all at the level at which we came here.
Amen Lupine, Amen.
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The emphasis lately on the board dealing with PMs and are they good or bad etc. is an example of how preoccupied we are with how we appear to each other. Actually, we are and should be conveyors of anecdotes which we could learn from and then go out into the world and experiment/experience how we appear/relate to real people! To continue snyping and competing with each other leaves us all at the level at which we came here.
The choice is; healthy growth toward balance of maturity, or stagnation.
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maybe usefulness is in the eye of the beholder? still trying to coin useful phrases. ha. i need a new hobbie. seriously mud-brother, hoge ynu will stick around this mud puddle and muck around when it feels comfy.
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Hi everyone,
Don't know how I got mixed up and put a post to Bella here about drop in visitors. OK, I'm about to move it hopefully to the appropriate thread this time. :oops:
tt
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Should have stayed on it last time.
Ditto :?
Ready for one of those juleps, sans the mint and julep. Cupala shots of bourbon should do it - or better yet, a cuppa hot chocolate with lots of gooey marshmallows.
(((Mud - as always your words are heard and very appreciated)))
Peace
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Hi everyone,
I think I'm resigned to the idea that everything that is said on the board(s) is in its strictest sense about voiceless narcissism. Not sure though...maybe I should bring the waffles if you serve breakfast on the bank :lol:
tt
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To all:
Just a general observation...
On Dr. Grossman's voicelessness.com webpage, we can read a brief cv on the doctor himself and access links to various essays he's written, one of which is on the topic of voicelessness and narcissism. In addition, there is a link to this VESMB with the notation - "A forum to discuss your experience with voicelessness".
I don't know why there seems to be this prevailing theme (at least on this thread) that narcissism is *supposed* to be the dominating topic of this board, but I am suggesting that's a false premise which is not supported by Dr. Grossman's own presentation of this board.
Only some food for thought which I offer because - although my own life has been deeply affected by contact with both NPD individuals and N'ish ones, the narcissistic personality disorder is not the primary theme of my life or necessarily of this board, imo.There are other reasons/ explanations/ complications/ associations with voicelessness besides narcissism and I think that it's very presumptuous for people to suggest that it should be.
Thank you.
Sincerely,
Carolyn
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In response Carolyn,
Thank You, as you have expressed my current thoughts and understanding of VESMB with clarity.
Voicelessness and Emotional Survival created by any or all of personal life situation(s), is my understanding.
Love, Leah
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Thanks, Carolyn and Leah...I like the expansive view too.
When it goes from a topic discussion to a tool for life.
If it's used wrongly or with the intent to harm, it shows.
Mud, I share the frustration but maybe not the reason.
It's all, completely, voluntary.
My goal is to:
be focused and courteous
stay away from what feels toxic
avoid belligerence
not rally
try not to judge
set my own boundaries
tell my own stories
ask for what I need
release the outcome
grieve some
play some
think some
love some
grow some
When I first came here two years ago, I was lonely. I am much less so now, knowing there are friendly voices here I can check in with, people whose stories pull me out of my own, a dialogue that has at times astonished me. There have been moments that felt transcendent, people whose perceptiveness has stunned me. And some sour periods.
I may become one of those long-timers who steps back. But I am still so grateful that the board is here.
love
Hops
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((((((((((((Hops)))))))))))) I completely understand.
Please know that I must only keep myself out of the business of judging intent at this time in my life, in all arenas, lest I become hopeless.
So much love to you,
Carolyn
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When it goes from a topic discussion to a tool for life.
Thank You, Hops
That's it in a nutshell, just as Lupine posted.
Wonderful, that's the why and wherefore.
Love, Leah
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Lupine: If you choose to remain a victim, then you must criticize the survivors to protect your failure to move on.
Thank you for putting into words how I have felt that some other people here have treated me in the past. It's almost like "how DARE you tell us that you are succeeding or have succeeded, especially." Well, I have in many ways and I'm not any more sorry to say that than Bean was to state her accomplishments.
I am also sad for those who either choose to stay stuck or who just plain ARE stuck. I really would save the "world" so to speak, if I could. Life is actually a WONDERFUL thing, but so many people just plain can't make it into the good parts through the muck and mire of the bad ones.
It's so sad to me.
~Laura
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Hi, teartracks,
I am not attempting to speak for any majority, only giving my own personal view, which is subject to revision as I grow and change. Voicelessness has been at the root of the majority of my own suffering and dysfunction... not npd.
At this time, I prefer to leave my statement of opinion as previously posted, without further comment.
Thank you.
Sincerely,
Carolyn
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Hi Carolyn,
I'm good with that.
I want to make sure that when I said 'not excluding present company', I was talking about MOI! :oops:
tt
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Thanks, tt... I did know what you meant... (((((((tt))))))
Carolyn
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Hi TT--
I appreciate your saying things that remind me of a sense of purpose, the bigger picture here.
(However it's defined, I know it's a good one.)
love,
Hops
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Dear Hops,
I recognize that I am not at a place in my own growth/healing to give first priority to the bigger picture/ sense of purpose of this message board. Thank you for helping me to see that... and thanks to tt, as well.
I feel and acknowledge that deep sense of purpose within my own home and family, but not here. My thought is that this is too diverse a group to accept a few individuals' definition of what that purpose is or should be.
I wonder whether I ever will... or even should strive for that... and I'm not sure.
Love,
Carolyn
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Hi ((((((((((Carolyn))))))))))))
I didn't mean that I think a certain general subject needs to be agreed upon.
What I was thinking was that TT's posts to me represented an effort to get a bigger picture, maybe serve as a way of "regathering" toward a loving purpose.
It was the sense of purpose I gained after reading TT's posts, not a specific one.
I'm happy with almost any subject matter. It's tone and voice that affect me most.
I learn a lot just hearing a diversity of voices, stories, and ways of thinking...
(As I've learned so much from you.)
love to you,
Hops
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((((((((((Hops)))))))))) thank you. Guess I should have just asked, "What in the heck are you saying?" :) :?
Clearly I am not quite beyond whatever it is about this whole deal that's bugging me, but I really appreciate your receptivity to me, despite my contrariness.... lol.
oy, I hope it's over soon.
Love,
Carolyn
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I don't believe the board can exist entirely without conflict, and an occasional bit of conflict is no doubt necessary in order to test our strength at dealing with life issues. I know that my ability to react to situations here has helped my ability to react to 3D conflict. However, the prolonged conflict seems to be people screaming for attention. I have chosen not to add to those posts that are inflammatory, even when, I have to admit, they have triggered irritation, and even anger, in me.
I prefer to come and focus on the threads that ask questions which help one or many here. There are many. If you have been here a while and don't see a new topic on the first page, dig further back. I am sure worthy topics have gotten buried.
I also think there is nothing "politically correct" in responding kindly to people's stories. Part of the reason we come here is to have others commiserate with us. I do not have people who would understand my situation in my 3D life. And, as the focus of this board is Narcissim, I come here to talk about that. I trust that my story will ring a bell with someone else and possibly give them an idea how to deal with their N.
Thank you to all of you who come here and allow me to tell my story and be part of a group who understands.
Love, Beth
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Wise perspective, Miz Beth.
love,
Hops
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I may be wrong,but I think that the board is the same as any real life group. If you read Social Psycholgy, any real life group (that consists of people-lol) is NOT "pretty",all of the time.
I am just learning(re-learning) the lesson of personal power. You need it.It is essential.People may say,"We need to act above board" and we DO need to try to act with integrity, to the best of our ability. However, when there is a group of people, with many different egos,pains, needs, and hurts, things just don't stay "nice"all of the time. I think that it is 'fairy land " thinking to expect it.
I am trying to face the truth about myself and life. I think that a group of people staying "nice'all the time is NOT accepting reality(IMO) Ami
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For the people who think the board is going 'bad", why don't they start new and useful topics? I want to note that some people are doing this. Ami
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CB wrote: "Both of us would have defined voiceless as not being able to talk the other person into meeting our needs. When the real solution should have been to talk long enough to know that the other person didnt want to meet our needs, and then parting in a civil way to find someone who did."
Of all the things you said.... and you said a lot in that last post.... I really identify with that statement.
I can accept a lot of things.... good bad and indifferent.... but I want them to be genuine and I'll respect whomever and whatever for their honesty. Remaining civil and doing whatever needs to be done, with as little emotional bloodshed as possible.... is something my heart yearns for.
What's so hard to take is trying to make sense, myself, in the midst other people's negative realities I can't escape.
I no longer care to even think about why they have them.... it's just so hard to be able to talk in a straight line when I feel I must veer off, constantly, in order to accomodate someone elses very skewed (imo) reality that's beeing forced on others, esp me.
ACK!
Aheam.... Everything you said about trying to discuss things on the board and not have to meander back to the N lable makes sense too.
I also know the self protective feeling of sheilding something new and wonderful from outside static and dysfunction.
You only have so much energy..... spending it growing something healthier.... seems like a wonderful option, to me.
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I hesitate to put my concerns out for help because I sense that every situation will be evaluated and examined for evidence of narcissism. I'm too new in my healing to handle all my own issues and other people's too. So, my relationship and the things I struggle with are kept close to my heart.
1. I pulled my childhood life story thread OFF the main board ~~ I was grateful to JanetLG for her time and support to each tentative posting therein.
2. I regretted posting my childhood life story ~~ as it was used against me, then, at that time, in a most horrendous way.
3. I will never again post my childhood life story.
4. Because I choose not, to in order to remain in my new shoes.
That is the truth, crystal clear.
Thank you, CB, for your valued and very much appreciated, lengthy post, as always, I have gleaned and gained so much.
Love, Leah
in a million years: in this relationship, disagreements have always ended with MORE connection, not less. We feel CLOSER, not more estranged. We both feel HEARD, even if we both retain our viewpoint.
That to me is 'normal' healthy adult reciprocal living, of which I enjoy in real life, in various social settings and none.
Leah
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I regretted posting my childhood life story ~~ as it was used against me, then, at that time, in a most horrendous way.
I'm sorry, Leah. I've had stuff I posted used against me, too, and it's a pretty hard experience.
I am just learning to hold those things that are truly precious to me closer to my heart. Which is probably where they belong anyway...
Love
CB
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I regretted posting my childhood life story ~~ as it was used against me, then, at that time, in a most horrendous way.
I'm sorry, Leah. I've had stuff I posted used against me, too, and it's a pretty hard experience.
I am just learning to hold those things that are truly precious to me closer to my heart. Which is probably where they belong anyway...
Love
CB
Me too ((( CB )))
Love and good wishes,
Leah
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As you all know, I had my alcoholism thrown in my face. The truth is, I don't feel bad one bit about it. I saw a problem in myself and I fixed it. I also am not rserved about posting about my life, because I did not cause myself that pain. Anyone who is insensitive enough to use your pain against you is obviously suffering from many problems still. Of course, if it makes you feel safer to keep personal items from the public, you should do so.
Thank you all for accepting me as I am.
Love, Beth
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Thing to remember is that we are all each of us, different, individual people.
Do you remember my childhood life story and what was done to me as a child, Beth ?
Love, Leah
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No, Leah, I know you as you are now and love you for that. I know that I cannot imagine others' pain here on the board. Please, no matter whether you ever share any information again or not, remember that none of your past was your fault, and you are what you are now. And I am sorry that anyone was cruel enough to use your story against you.
Love, Beth
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I can relate to your openness of what happened to you, being used against you. As I've said, that's what happened, not when I shared my story only, but when those in my story came here and began telling their side of things.
I can't say it's caused me to be more careful however, because i am not one to be censored, but I rarely use the pseudonames and especially not real ones.
Leah, I think again I have to say that we need to keep in mind that the people here are abuse-victims or abuse-survivors. What you are going to be responded to with in a lot of cases, is their own defense mechanisms that they are currently using, because of not finding help for their pasts. Not surprising at all, but also very painful for you and my heart goes out to you for that surely.
~Laura
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Dear Beth,
Thank you for your perception, and validation, of me as a person, here today. And for your kindness also.
Truly, very much appreciated and deeply valued.
Love, Leah
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Dear Laura,
Thank you very much for your kindness and empathy, which I very much value and appreciate.
I do remember you sharing of what had happened to you, and that must have been dreadful too.
Love, Leah
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Hi TT
If you google your name, ie, mine is LeahsRainbow, then, google brings up 2 posts on this board, everytime.
Go google Teartracks and * see * what comes up.
Google has given you a valid response to your search ....... your own posting!! :)
Leah
Google "teartracks" .....
Post replyPosted by: teartracks. Insert Quote. Hi Carolyn, I'm good with that. ... Hi, teartracks, I am not attempting to speak for any majority, only giving my own ...
www.voicelessness.com/disc3//index.php?action=post;topic=6667.33 - 71k - Cached - Similar pages
useful or useless?Last Edit: Today at 03:19:11 PM by teartracks », Logged ... Hi, teartracks, I am not attempting to speak for any majority, only giving my own personal view, ...
www.voicelessness.com/disc3//index.php?topic=6667.33 - 42k - 23 hours ago - Cached - Similar pages
[ More results from www.voicelessness.com ]
Google "leahsrainbow"
Post replyPosted by: LeahsRainbow. Insert Quote. Just had a look at Dr Grossman's recommended reading list of books and the the books quoted in this thread's articles ...
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As you all know, I had my alcoholism thrown in my face. The truth is, I don't feel bad one bit about it. I saw a problem in myself and I fixed it. I also am not rserved about posting about my life, because I did not cause myself that pain. Anyone who is insensitive enough to use your pain against you is obviously suffering from many problems still. Of course, if it makes you feel safer to keep personal items from the public, you should do so.
Thank you all for accepting me as I am.
Love, Beth
Dear Beth and Leah,
I can relate! I have grown to feel that I've got to be prepared to face the consequences of posting private details about my life in public. If I'm not ready to have that information used to harm me, I'm not ready to post it any more.
When I was much younger, I'd post everything!!! I was never hurt by forum members, (maybe annoyed sometimes though, lol) but the information is on public record. Many years later- like 5, I think, an N I was dating got up in the middle of the night, and logged into all the forums I was a member of. He read my entire history of pain, struggle, and heart ache, and he twisted it all around in the most negative light imaginable, and (to paraphrase) told me that I deserved all the pain because I was so worthless. It was like handling all my triggers over to an an N, and he used that information to hurt and control me. It scared me, experiencing it. I'm a more private person now, although I feel safe here. Its odd.
X Bella
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I see what you mean Leah, but how and why does that happen? I really would rather not be googleabally.
tt
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Dear TT
I know what you mean, and how you feel about it. As I was shocked when I first realized this, but, then reason gave me peace.
That's why we choose a 'nickname' and don't give our real name, as an identity on the board, or any board.
The 'nickname' is vital for any d v victim or survivor posting on any support board.
We will always be googable, but only as our 'nickname'
Love, Leah
PS > That said, as a d v survivor, I am always wary and concerned of writing too much very personal 'identifiable' information.
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Dear Beth and Leah,
I can relate! I have grown to feel that I've got to be prepared to face the consequences of posting private details about my life in public. If I'm not ready to have that information used to harm me, I'm not ready to post it any more.
When I was much younger, I'd post everything!!! I was never hurt by forum members, (maybe annoyed sometimes though, lol) but the information is on public record. Many years later- like 5, I think, an N I was dating got up in the middle of the night, and logged into all the forums I was a member of. He read my entire history of pain, struggle, and heart ache, and he twisted it all around in the most negative light imaginable, and (to paraphrase) told me that I deserved all the pain because I was so worthless. It was like handling all my triggers over to an an N, and he used that information to hurt and control me. It scared me, experiencing it. I'm a more private person now, although I feel safe here. Its odd.
X Bella
Dear Bella,
That must have been horrendous and devastating, it was extreme twistedness and cruelty. That's why I pulled my childhood life story, it was never written for 'twisted' purposes.
It must have felt so scary for you, as it was an invasion of your innermost soul, thoughts and being, as a person.
That's why I recommend to everyone I come into contact with who uses support forums/boards, and/or googles, reads information, and suchlike; always clear ones history, and also, ones temporary internet files, before shutting down your computer. And keep it to oneself as to any support forum/board that one is using as it is ones own private place (for safety purposes).
But, he got up in the middle of the night and sneakily sought out all your personal sites and read all your postings ..... that is so premeditated.
And a huge betrayal of trust too.
The games some people play are so awful, and so alien to us.
Love, Leah
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The guys who started Google are, of course, millionaires.
They have designed a program that will search down just about anything.
However, this board is not buried as Yahoo and MNS groups are. I have googled my nickname from there but it doesn't come up.
I have another board, like this, and didn't know as much about Google back in the mid-90s but was using a nickname--but the posts are song lyrics so I have © on the lyrics with my real name--- Google can find it
I have had ny name mentioned in the minutes of a meeting , and I'm not even on the Board. I do the website and bookkeeping. Google finds named embedded in documents like that.
The stranger your name, the sooner it will be found and on the first page, but if you are John smith?--- why bother?
Hope this helps you understand, tt
Izzy
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wow! so maybe, just maybe, the people who accused me wayyyyyyyy back when of inviting people to the board...were WRONG? Since google lets people find you anyway. Go figure.
Yes, I am being sarcastic purposely, since I feel validated of my innocence even more now.
Thanks to Leah
~Laura
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Yes, Laura, oh yes
You yourself know if you did invite them to the board or did not invite them to the board.
If you did not invite them to the board, and you had not told them that you were a member of this board, then that is most likely how they came to the board.
Glad you have your validation.
Love, Leah
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really Me
that would depend on if they knew your nickname and I just checked--it took until page 3 to mention you on voicelessness. Lots of other reallyme returns
Iz
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Dear Izzy,
Only wish my surname was Smith !! :)
As I have an unusual surname (not rainbow!) it always appears on the top of the 'google' list :(
Leah
I hear you Leah. I am up front and centere along with relatives with same surname,
I can find my daughter here, but different, different name. I can find 2 siblings here --one for golf and one for police work--newspaper accounts. I can find my niece here as she is--was --until she went to Texas--the orthopedic doctor for Toronto's hockey, football and baseball teams (top ones)--I can find my son-in-law (ex) looking for info on Algonquin Indians, and the biggest was my grandson filling the whole first page in 2004.
The biggest was my grandson's adventure of near death, now in a book.
[Fatal obsessionThe waters of the North Atlantic are 8C even in August. ... KC Maple survived the sinking of the Silver, thanks to a miraculous rescue by the Icelandic ...
http://www.canada.com/ottawacitizen/news/story.html?id=34d97af7-ab79-4b3e-bce7-005aed59afb3
www.canada.com/ottawacitizen/news/story.html?id... - 64k - Cached - Similar pages
The worst thing is that part of my surname is a "set" for shooting porn and comes up with a search. Surrrrreee!! We run the operation!!!!!!!
Izzy
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Dear Beth and Leah,
I can relate! I have grown to feel that I've got to be prepared to face the consequences of posting private details about my life in public. If I'm not ready to have that information used to harm me, I'm not ready to post it any more.
When I was much younger, I'd post everything!!! I was never hurt by forum members, (maybe annoyed sometimes though, lol) but the information is on public record. Many years later- like 5, I think, an N I was dating got up in the middle of the night, and logged into all the forums I was a member of. He read my entire history of pain, struggle, and heart ache, and he twisted it all around in the most negative light imaginable, and (to paraphrase) told me that I deserved all the pain because I was so worthless. It was like handling all my triggers over to an an N, and he used that information to hurt and control me. It scared me, experiencing it. I'm a more private person now, although I feel safe here. Its odd.
X Bella
Dear Bella,
That must have been horrendous and devastating, it was extreme twistedness and cruelty. That's why I pulled my childhood life story, it was never written for 'twisted' purposes.
It must have felt so scary for you, as it was an invasion of your innermost soul, thoughts and being, as a person.
That's why I recommend to everyone I come into contact with who uses support forums/boards, and/or googles, reads information, and suchlike; always clear ones history, and also, ones temporary internet files, before shutting down your computer. And keep it to oneself as to any support forum/board that one is using as it is ones own private place (for safety purposes).
But, he got up in the middle of the night and sneakily sought out all your personal sites and read all your postings ..... that is so premeditated.
And a huge betrayal of trust too.
The games some people play are so awful, and so alien to us.
Love, Leah
It really is alien, Leah!! Thats a good description. I probably was very naive, but I always assumed that the purpose of intimacy was deeper love. Maybe i thought i was lovable too, and that anyone really knowing me would appreciate me more deeply. N's only want intimacy for greater control.
Yep, I can totally understand why you felt the need to pull your child-hood story. You have more guts than me, because I was never even able to post mine. Also, I couldn't muster the energy to dig it all up again.
I like you idea of clearing history and being careful with passwords. My browser stores mine, and thats how that guy logged into my forums back then.
X bella
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It really is alien, Leah!! Thats a good description. I probably was very naive, but I always assumed that the purpose of intimacy was deeper love. Maybe i thought i was lovable too, and that anyone really knowing me would appreciate me more deeply. N's only want intimacy for greater control.
Yep, I can totally understand why you felt the need to pull your child-hood story. You have more guts than me, because I was never even able to post mine. Also, I couldn't muster the energy to dig it all up again.
I like you idea of clearing history and being careful with passwords. My browser stores mine, and thats how that guy logged into my forums back then.
X bella
Dear Bella,
My computer is like Fort Knox to get into and I live alone!! Password protected to log on and use, and then everything else is password protected also.
Alien: when my d v support lady was sitting with me a few years ago now, she remarked on all that I had survived and asked how I managed it, to which I replied with my usual humour; "I think I must be an Alien" :) So, the use of the word alien kind of stuck with me since then.
Don't believe I need to write about my childhood at any time in the future as I have enlightenment on the issues that I was pondering about. and have a deep peace and contentment, which I don't want to lose.
I was naive and too trusting, and yes, always must have thought that by being so lovable, that I would be loved back, but I wasn't. But, now in enlightenment, what a tool for an N to have control.
So glad to know that you have someone who loves you now, dear Bella. That is truly heartwarming to know.
Love, Leah
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Dear Izzy,
On a more serious note, thank you for sharing of your grandson's adventure and book, of which, I have read from the link you have provided. That is the book I recall you mentioning, that you went out and purchased for yourself. That was some adventure, of a lifetime I would think, or not. Your grandson would have sufffered from PTSD after such a near death trauma, I would think.
Love, Leah
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Carolyn,
Because of time constraints, I've had to skim the thread a bit, so I hope I have gotten everyone's point of view straight. (I wouldnt have skipped the thread for the world--since Mud began it and his perspective is always so pithy and right on).
Anyway, boards take on a life of their own, it seems...but all other things being equal, I probably agree with you that voicelessness is probably more of the underlying issue than is narcissism. I think that narcissism is the trigger for our underlying voicelessness--and the reason we gather here is because we at least perceive that we are/were voiceless. Sometimes I think what we term voicelessness is really an ineffective, powerless voice---it's not like we are shut down from talking, so many of us here seem VERY articulate! 8)
It was easy for me to think, when I was first becoming aware of the dynamic, that narcissism is the problem--but I really don't think it is. Everyone in the world isnt voiceless, but everyone runs into N's or N'ish behavior constantly. Narcissism doesnt back everyone into a powerless corner like it did us. The variable--to me--seems to be what skills I did or didnt develop to stand up to N's.
I'll speak for myself here: the skill I thought that I needed in dealing with N's was persistence. If I kept on with the relationship and didnt give up, it would eventually turn around. My voicelessness stemmed from being bested by the N in persistence. I found that no matter how long I thought I could hold out with my point of view, they could hold out longer. I was "voiceless" because nothing I said or did could change that fact.
For me, the point at which I came to the board was the point at which I realized that there was no more hope. If you have seen the movie, War of the Roses, you remember the last scene where they are lying there dying and are still arguing about who was right. Neither one was voiceless. My NH hated that movie because no one won. I was tickled because they were still arguing. How true to life.
So, at first I was attracted to the thought of being voiceless. My NH would also describe himself as voiceless (if I bothered to ask him). Both of us would have defined voiceless as not being able to talk the other person into meeting our needs. When the real solution should have been to talk long enough to know that the other person didnt want to meet our needs, and then parting in a civil way to find someone who did. I am not too attracted anymore to dissecting narcissism, or to calling myself voiceless. I think it's just stages that we go through on our way to healthy.
Well, I have to confess that it has been the process of having a very different sort of relationship that has put a lot of this into perspective. I have forced myself to keep my mouth shut when I really want to verbally armwrestle the other person into seeing my perspective. From the outside, I have probably appeared more voiceless than I did in my marriage. But on the inside, I am thinking through my feelings, reactions, his responses and weighing them: as upset as I am right now, where does my power lie? Do I need to say something? Do I need to change my expectations? Do I need to change my responses? Do I need to listen more? Do I need to walk away (to me, it is always having this option on the front burner, that makes me able to look closely at what is going on). In spite of the fact that I say a whole lot less in this relationship than I did in my marriage, I feel less voiceless.
Here's an interesting development that I had never imagined in a million years: in this relationship, disagreements have always ended with MORE connection, not less. We feel CLOSER, not more estranged. We both feel HEARD, even if we both retain our viewpoint. It helps that neither of us are N's, but I think that a big part of the difference is that I am handling my "voicelessness" differently. My emotions feel just as intense with this relationship as they were in my marriage. But I am learning how to channel them into my true voice.
I think that the topics on the board probably weave in and out among all the different issues related to "voicelessness". Right now, I feel the balance is tipped toward other people's behavior (Nism or perceived Nism) rather than self-power (overcoming voicelessness). Like others here, I feel a lot of resistance toward any attempts to steer the discussion toward me-statements instead of you-statements. I havent been here long enough to know if that's a normal ebb and flow on the board.
Tayana might not feel as though it was time to move on from the board if there was a place to continue to work through issues that come up as we get farther along in the journey. As I step out into the next turn in the bend of my journey, I feel tentative and vulnerable again. Because the board does seem to be geared toward the discussion of narcissism, I hesitate to put my concerns out for help because I sense that every situation will be evaluated and examined for evidence of narcissism. I'm too new in my healing to handle all my own issues and other people's too. So, my relationship and the things I struggle with are kept close to my heart.
That was a bit of a ramble, Carolyn. I guess I'll go ahead and push post because I suspect that some of it will resonate with you, and I also suspect you could use someone resonating with you right about now. I guess the bottom line is that the journey is really our own and, when it comes right down to it, we are the only ones who walk it.
Much love,
CB
Dear CB,
I had to quote your post in its entirety because it was impossible for me to pick and choose portions about which to say - Yes! This resonates with me.
The whole thing... well, it's been a sight for sore eyes to me this evening, just exactly what I needed to read. Thank you more than I can say for such a lovely gift of your time and understanding to reach out to me in this way.
Wish I had the alertness and energy to write a 50 page response, because that's what I fear it would take... but instead I will just save your words, print them even, and review as needed.
I do believe you've managed to remove that pesky bee from my bonnet, dear ((((((((((CB)))))))))) ... thank you.
Bunches of love,
Carolyn
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Dear Leah,
As far as I could tell, re my grandson, I heard the radio intereviews, and they are still there in the Archives, that he was very detached from what happened, no mention of his Uncle Tom's death, other than he died, --what it meant to him etc., no mention of Tom's children back home, his wife. He was 17, is 21 now and I was furious with ex SIL for allowing him to go on such a dangerous trip. 17 is too young to make a choice like that and his father is too N, to not think that there was some admiration/adulation for him in the picture.
However, when KC called father on the satellite phone, his dad spaced out (it's in the book) right after giving details to his girlfriend and SHE called the Coast guards etc. SIL does not come out shining.
But it was when he came to see me, 2 years ago, motorbike and stayed a couple of days, he was full of himself and then I was convinced he was picking up N traits from his father, much to my sorrow.
xx
Izzy
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Dear Izzy,
Agree with you entirely, how for very selfish Nish reasons SIL projected his 17 year old son onto a dangerous trip.
That must have been so saddening for you, when your grandson came to see you, and you picked up on his N traits from SIL.
I would have felt powerlessness coupled with sadness.
Love, Leah