Voicelessness and Emotional Survival Message Board
Voicelessness and Emotional Survival => Voicelessness and Emotional Survival Message Board => Topic started by: Certain Hope on January 27, 2008, 06:24:53 PM
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Dr. Henry Cloud and Dr. John Townsend - the authors of the Boundaries books - wrote this one I've been reading...
and I thought that others might be interested in some excerpts and thoughts from it.
The first section discusses the Interpersonal Traits of Unsafe People, beginning with:
1. Unsafe people avoid closeness, instead of connecting.
We were created for intimacy, to connect with others with heart, soul, and mind.
Intimacy occurs when we are open, vulnerable, and honest... for these qualities help us to be close to each other.
We know each other at deep levels when we share our real feelings, fears, failures, and hurts.
This kind of sharing helps us to feel that we are not alone in the world.
(Unsafe people are not willing to share at such deep levels, and so it's recommended to question long term relationships in whichyou don't really get to know the other person.)
"If you spend significant amounts of time with an individual and still feel far away from him/her, something is wrong.
You do not have a connection that's nourishing to the soul.
Furthermore, this can be a signal that real danger is present.
People who are not able to get close often act out their isolation in affairs, two-faced betrayals, broken confidences and trusts, addictions, and a whole host of other problem dynamics."
In the book, these unsafe people are described as possessing a "vacuum in the inner parts" ... an expression which really struck me, because that's just how it feels, when trying to communicate with someone who has no ability - or desire, even - to connect. They'll take and take and never give back, continually vacuuming your very soul for your agreement, your appreciation, your praise and affirmation... as long as it suits them... and that's the end of the line.
2. Unsafe people are only concerned about "I" instead of "we".
Here the authors use another phrase which truly startled me, but oh, does it ever fit.
In describing a relationship with a basically "nice guy" who shared common interests, it soon became clear that they were not truly connecting. The fact is:
"What I had thought was a relationship was actually auditory mxxsturxxtion" with the author serving as an audience to this other person's conversation with himself! "What an empty experience!!"
More later...
And now it's later... : ) and I realize that I mis-spoke. The first section of this little book is on the personal traits of the unsafe, not the interpersonal traits... but that's okay, the other is fairly obvious, I think, and I can list those later.
To continue re: the unsafe person's primary concern with "I" and not "we"....
Safe people act on their empathy.
If you want to know how safe someone is, ask yourself:
"Is this person with me for herself/himself - - or for us?"
There's such a huge difference between bringing your own needs to a relationship (which is healthy and good!)
and exploiting a relationship for your own needs only.
Look for these warning signs:
a) When he helps me, he uses that later to get something from me.
b) I never hear from her unless she's in trouble.
c) I feel like a mirror, as if my job is to listen and approve!
d) I'm constantly on the giving end - financially, time, resources.
e) When my own needs come up, she treats them superficially and then comes back to herself.
Whenever there's trouble, it will generally show in one person being the chronic "giver" and the other being the chronic "taker".
Love seeks the good of the other; it is not self-seeking. So when you evaluate your relationships, look for people who show genuine concern for your welfare, and then
make that concern known in concrete actions!
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3. Unsafe people resist freedom, instead of encouraging it.
We can easily cut to the chase on this interpersonal trait.
Ask yourself, 'What does this person do with my "No"?'
In the eyes of an unsafe person, you become "bad" for being separate from them.
Love protects the separateness of the other.
When we are in relationship, the "we" is still "you" and "me".
A safe connection involves two people trusting, opening up, and being honest with each other.
Yet the second great theme of relationship,
after connection, is separateness.
(Safe people don't just accept separateness, they) encourage, value, and nurture the separateness of other people.
Safe people understand that they need their own free choices - and that they need to protect the freedom of other people, two.
You will always find that the best connections embrace the individual concerns of the other person.
4. Unsafe people flatter us, instead of confronting us.
An unsafe person can make you feel very, very good...
and a safe person can make you feel very, very bad.
It can get confusing. How can you tell the difference?
Safe relationships are not just about trust, support, and sharing.
They are also about truth, righteousness, and honesty.
God uses people not only to nurture us, but also to open our eyes to sins, selfishness, and denial in us.
Love also means saying, "but I hold this against you," as Jesus did when He confronted the churches (Revelation 2:4, 14, 20)
Being confronted on character issues isn't pleasant. It hurts our self-image. It humbles us.
But it doesn't harm us. Loving confrontations protect us from our blindness and self-destructiveness.
There is a major difference between confronters and strokers.
Confronters risk our leaving them to tell us a needed truth.
They jeopardize comfort to give us honest love.
Strokers, in contrast, lull us to sleep by idealizing our specialness.
As long as you feel good, they're happy.
This is more addictive, than loving. And it certainly isn't safe.
We all need praise... but praise affirms the truth! Strokers, however, avoid the truth by exclusively praising.
Beware of people who only tell you your good points, justifying it by a desire to be "positive".
They aren't loving you enough to tell you when your attitude or behavior is driving your life over a cliff,
even though you desperately need to know it.
more to come...
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Hi Carolyn,
Safe People - one of my favorites.
Thanks for the excerpts here. I gave my copy to a young woman whose life had taken a dark turn because of some dark choices. So this gives me a chance to read up.
Another of Cloud's books that I appreciate equally is Integrity.
tt
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It's my pleasure to share what I'm reading here, tt... makes the endeavor less lonesome.
There's so much to learn...
Thanks for the tip re: Integrity. Didn't know they'd written one by that title... busy guys, they are.
Carolyn
P.S. on edit... pardon me, I see you've said Integrity is by Dr. Cloud alone... yes, published 2006.
Subtitled - The Courage to Meet the Demands of Reality -
How Six Essential Qualities Determine your Success in Business.
Cool!
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Sorry I'm in guest mode. I forgot my password.
I just finished reading Safe People and I loved it. One the the best self help books I've read.
I also boought "The Mom Factor" and will read that next.
I feel sad that I had the need to buy a book to tell me about "Safe People". Safe People: What a concept! Not everyone is safe, don't ya know: Oh yes, now I know. I guess I always felt that way, but I never verbalized it.
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I have read both Safe People And the Mom Factor. I understand what you mean Bell but those guys are Christian counselors not counselors who are Christian-meaning they advertise that they counsel through a biblical world view. It was like when I went to a study at church and she quoted a women who had great ideas but her world view was different-so the teacher highly recommended the cool but told us that when the lady talked of communing with Mother Earth-she substituted God.
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So what I am saying is that if you can take what you need and leave the rest that is good. Now about Safe People. I think you can tell by the way they make you feel. I have been chastised by my mom for using the phrase-he will suck the life right out of you. But I have been with people who eventually suck all of your emotional energy and you finally are depleted and the only recourse is to retreat. Even if they are nice sometimes they are so needy that they take your life force.
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So what I am saying is that if you can take what you need and leave the rest that is good. Now about Safe People. I think you can tell by the way they make you feel. I have been chastised by my mom for using the phrase-he will suck the life right out of you.
But I have been with people who eventually suck all of your emotional energy and you finally are depleted and the only recourse is to retreat. Even if they are nice sometimes they are so needy that they take your life force.
"..... eventually suck all of your emotional energy"
Hi Kelly,
That resonates with me, truly. We had someone last november, kindly mention, that they had read the book; "EMOTIONAL VAMPIRES"
by Albert J. Bernstein PhD.Subtitled ....... "Dealing with People who Drain you Dry"
Which I later purchased, and have read, all in all, it has been most insightful, teaching, and extremely helpful, with regard to, maintaining my own personal emotional health.
http://www.voicelessness.com/disc3//index.php?topic=6035.0 (http://www.voicelessness.com/disc3//index.php?topic=6035.0)
Hope your day goes well, at work.
Love, Leah
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Sorry I'm in guest mode. I forgot my password.
I just finished reading Safe People and I loved it. One the the best self help books I've read.
I also boought "The Mom Factor" and will read that next.
I feel sad that I had the need to buy a book to tell me about "Safe People". Safe People: What a concept! Not everyone is safe, don't ya know: Oh yes, now I know. I guess I always felt that way, but I never verbalized it.
Hi, Ann,
It's good to read you! I'm not aquainted with The Mom Factor... will check that out!
From feeling so terribly shy and withdrawn growing up to opening my arms wide to a series of unsafe people (in an ignorant determination to overcome that shyness)... well, the experience gave new meaning to the old expression "It takes all kinds."
ugh.
When I told somebody at work that I was reading Safe People, she gave me a strange look, as though - what a peculiar topic of interest! -
lol... oh, well. So many lessons were unlearned before... I am really treasuring this book.
Carolyn
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I really, really loved and appreciated the post and topic, Carolyn. Except for the part where they state that `God uses people not only to nurture us, but also to open our eyes to sins, selfishness, and denial in us'.
I found that part so alienating, and also quite typical of `recovery' type writing. I encounter it all the time. It basically says `recovery is only for those who share the author's spirituality, and the rest of you are excluded'. I felt myself reading along, nodding in agreement with so much of it, and then the preaching part comes up, and I deflate. I'm thinking `oh, you're just another evangelist writing pop psychology' and I feel bad for having listened at all.
Hi, Bella,
I've had that experience, too, when reading psych articles written by authors ranging from supposed-Christians-who-don't-know-Christ
to new-age spiritualists to... well, you name it. Everyone writes from her/his own perspective, out of her/his own worldview.
For me, a crucial part of growing in maturity has been learning to take the good and spit out the sticks.
Re: the specific passage you cited - I didn't read that in the context of a recovery manual, but rather as general life information, a proverb of sorts. And I'm not sure what exactly you think they're saying there... possibly you read it to mean that God does bad things to people to teach them a lesson? That's not my undestanding.
My understanding of the meaning there is that we can learn just as much from those we may perceive as our enemies (if not more) than from our friends.
I believe that there is similar wisdom in every spiritual belief system, possibly phrased differently, maybe referring to the Universe, the Cosmos, or some other entity, and not "God"... and yet meaning the same. There are always lessons to be learned and telling someone the nice, pleasant, politically correct, soothing things is not always the kind thing to do. Sometimes the kind and loving thing to do is to confront - and in that loving confrontation, God will reveal to us the selfishness, sin, denial, etc, within our own hearts.
Anyhow, that was my understanding.
Carolyn
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So what I am saying is that if you can take what you need and leave the rest that is good. Now about Safe People. I think you can tell by the way they make you feel. I have been chastised by my mom for using the phrase-he will suck the life right out of you. But I have been with people who eventually suck all of your emotional energy and you finally are depleted and the only recourse is to retreat. Even if they are nice sometimes they are so needy that they take your life force.
Kelly,
After reading some articles about energy vampires this summer, I began to take stock of my personal relationships and re-evaluate them in the light of exactly what you've said - - How do I feel after interacting with these folks?
In the past, if I didn't feel good about a relationship, I always assumed first and foremost that it must be my "fault" - that I must be doing something wrong and the answer must lie in my own need for an attitude adjustment.
The difference now is - when I don't feel good about an exchange - I still consider my own part in the matter, but I no longer automatically assign blame to myself! Oh, how liberating that has been.
Now I can simply say, "Something is wrong here" - and step away, pray, ponder, observe both self and others, and delay any further exchanges until the picture comes into full view and good focus.
This process can take me a good long time, since I still struggle to name my own feelings and to dig beneath the general sense of being "upset" to locate the real issues. Thanks for your contribution here!
Carolyn
P.S. on edit - here's the thread from last August on Energy Vampires. Learning about that topic is what got me off the self-blame track!
http://www.voicelessness.com/disc3//index.php?topic=5373.45 (http://www.voicelessness.com/disc3//index.php?topic=5373.45)
an excerpt: "The psychological dynamics represented by people who inadvertently portray a psychic attacker (energy vampire) fall into five major categories.
Fear is the common denominator in these individuals, and you must learn to protect yourself from their negative influences.
The five personality types are called -
ethereal, insecure, paranoid, passive-aggressive, and robotic."
The Paranoid Type
Betrayal is the main issue with a paranoid type....
"Paranoid types are soldiers still trying to win a war that no longer exists against an enemy that has long since perished. They do not trust anyone. Everyone is their enemy and life is their battleground. Fear is everywhere and an ingrained part of their personality makeup.
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5. Unsafe people condemn us, instead of forgiving us.
When people care about each other, forgiveness restores and reconciles. Forgiveness is the glue of love,
making it possible for love to do what it does best: to "bear all things, believe all things, hope all things,
endure all things". (Note - this does not mean tolerating abuse!)
Safe relationships are centered and grounded in forgiveness.
People who forgive can - and should - also be people who confront.
When we are made aware of how we have hurt a loved one, then we can be reconciled.
Therefore, you shouldn't discount someone who has "something against you", labeling her/him as unsafe.
She/he might actually be attempting to come closer in love...
(and this is the way that true intimacy is formed and grows!)
When we are forgiven by a safe person, several things happen:
He knows our failings.
He neither minimizes nor excuses our sin.
His love for us is greater than our transgression.
He marks "paid in full" and lets it go.
He stays close to us and doesn't abandon us.
That's why the forgiving person is safe. He sees our wrong and loves us beyond it. And that love helps heal and transform us into the person God intended.
On the other hand, an unsafe person who is unable to forgive can be very destructive.
Instead of forgiving, she condemns:
She centers on my failings.
She won't let go of the past, even when I've confessed, repented, and made restitution.
She uses my weaknesses to avoid looking at hers.
She sees me as morally inferior to her.
She desires justice more than intimacy.
Unsafe people are often good at identifying your weaknesses.
They can quote the minute and hour you hurt them, and recall the scene in intimate detail and living color.
Like a good attorney, they have the entire case mapped out. And you are judged "guilty".
Yes, we need to be confronted with our weaknesses. Unsafe people, however, confront us not to forgive us, but to condemn and punish us.
They remove their love until we are appropriately chastised.
This, obviously, destroys and chance for connection or safety.
... to be continued...
With thanks to all for your comments and contributions!
Carolyn
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Martin Buber made a differentiation between 'you' and 'thou', a more respectful form of you; I always try to keep it in mind in interactions now, am I a 'you' here or a 'thou'!
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Hi Carolyn,
You took the words out of my mouth. I also used to think I was automatically at fault in a relationship, I guess my Mother always or often made me feel that way. So, this book was like "ahhhhhhhhhh": I'm not always wrong or at fault because some people just aren't safe.
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Oh, Bella, it's such a pleasure to read your post after a long day... thank you for understanding.
I felt like my reply to you this morning was a bit abrupt and incomplete, as I hurried around, betwixt and between.
Mostly, I recognized how nervous and uptight I can still get when I'm afraid that someone is upset with me... I wish that would fade away, but it's still there.
Thanks to Kelly's reply and your last post here, I have an even better grasp of your perspective on this and very much appreciate your expression of your view. You're very kind and gracious... and that sure builds bridges to understanding.
Please, feel free and welcome to do the same any time when I post this stuff, because I know I'm limited to only my own view and my imagination as to how others think/feel can be pretty dull. ((((((Bella)))))))
Ann.... Amen. Some people are not safe... and some are more un-safe than others... so, a plan of action when such folks are uncovered is what I guess is called for. But I'm only on pg. 51... : )
Love to you both,
Carolyn
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Hello Bella. I agree with your posts on this particular topic. So, you are Australian. I am Irish, living between Ireland and Continental Europe.
I agree, we sometimes have to make a cultural leap.
We don't talk about religion here, one way or the other, and I have no idea even what my friends and acquaintances believe in. It is their business.
But what matter the belief, I say, if the person is a good person.
All the best
Hermes
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Here's the next installment... with thanks again, Bella... you are indeed, to me, a safe human being :)
6. Unsafe people stay in parent/child roles, instead of relating as equals.
Safe people respect our right to make decisions and adult choices.
Unsafe people resist our adult functioning.
They don't agree with our right to an opinion, a value, or a decision.
Unsafe people react to our adultness by withdrawing from it.
Safe individuals love to see us grow up and mature...
Your closest relationships are, at all times, actively working either for or against your growth.
In the list below, the first two ways of relating hinder your growth and the last one encourages it:
I feel like a kid around them.
I feel like I have to be their parent.
I feel equal with them.
The first two are fairly self-explanatory. Taking a closer look at what it means to feel equal with another human being...
You know you're around a safe, adult person by the following characteristics:
She is not threatened by your differences.
She has standards, values, and convictions she's worked out for herself.
At the same time, she doesn't have a "right way" and a "wrong way" for everything.
She functions at least on the same level of maturity as her same-age peers.
She appreciates mystery and the unknown.
She encourages me to develop my own values.
And the final note, specifically for Christians...
Remember that we want our efforts to be approved by God (2 Timothy 2:15), not people.
Find people who want the same goals for you.
7. Unsafe people are unstable over time, instead of being consistent.
Here are some traits to look for in your relationships:
Are they living up to their commitments to me?
Are they here for me only when I'm here? (Right in front of them, in their face, with an emergency, for instance.)
Do they tell me no, when they don't have time? (they should!)
Do they make promises they can't keep?
Am I the last in a string of broken relationships?
Do others warn me about their pattern of relating?
And a word to Christians:
Love is abiding, timeless, and unchanging, just like its Author.
Find people who love you, and love you well over time, like He does.
Jesus Christ, the same yesterday, and today, and forever. Hebrews 13:8
more to come....
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Hi Bella,
I once ran away from Al-Anon when I realized that no matter what the big book said (God as you understand him) each meeting closed with people holding hands, saying the Lords Prayer. I knew that excluded many people who might come, including me, and I thought that was wrong.
Have you checked out any sites like this?
http://www.smartrecovery.org/resources/faq.htm#Q.%20How%20is%20SMART%20Recovery®%20different%20from%20traditional%20Twelve%20Step%20programs (http://www.smartrecovery.org/resources/faq.htm#Q.%20How%20is%20SMART%20Recovery®%20different%20from%20traditional%20Twelve%20Step%20programs)
There are a lot of forums, too...
xo
Hops
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In my view, that is wrong, to get people to say The Lord's Prayer, assuming that they know him, as their father, when they may not
Freedom of choice, always, is paramount, to any recovery, or healing.
Leah
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((((( Bella )))))
Truly, I don't like the Christian 12-Step books and tapes, either. (long story)
Hugs back to you,
Love, Leah
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(((((((((((( Bella ))))))))))))) I understand... especially about a few things going on and feeling extra emotional... never any need to explain to a fellow emotionally charged sister... wow, it can get to be overwhelming. There are many topics I wouldn't even begin to touch, some days... lol. Anyhow, bunches of love to you... all is well.
Carolyn
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The latest installment, condensed, as always... lol. This is the last of the portion detailing interpersonal traits of unsafe folks.
8. Unsafe people are a negative influence on us, rather than a positive one.
Safety breeds safety. And safe people make us better people for being around them.
An unsafe person may make you feel good - yet wound you emotionally. She may make you act better,
but hurt your character. And you may think you're being treated well, but she may be hindering your growth.
We cannot fail to be influenced, for better or worse, by the people in whom we invest. It will always show...
(just like fruit on a vine).
Ask yourself these questions about the people with whom you relate:
As a result of spending time with this person, am I -
more loving or more detached?
more honest or more compliant?
more forgiving or more idealistic?
more mutual or more childish?
And for Christians -
Safe people are not perfect, but they help us progress toward Christlike character in the four major areas of spiritual growth.
9. Unsafe people gossip, instead of keeping secrets.
'Nuf said, I think.
Carolyn
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CH - I read Safe People late last year and thought it was really good, though I don't come from the Christian counseling orientation. I thought it was such a good, helpful book and I really appreciate you sharing these excerpts.
I particularly liked a part that I think was in Safe People (I read another at the same time) where Cloud said that to take risks and make the most of your life you need a deep pool of association of safe people so that failure would not be devastating. You can't take the big risks to accomplish big things if that deep web of safe people, like a net for a trapeze artist, isn't there. As much as sometimes we are the trapeze artists, we also form the strands in the safety net for others to support their reaching for their best lives. Anyway, that touched me deeply.
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Post deleted.
Yamen, Shy, Watcher, Observer—and various other names. I have asked you to post under one name. You are one person with one view of the world. I, and many others, would appreciate hearing that view. Your pretending to be many people all of whom share the same view, however, is not allowed on this board. E-mail me.
Richard
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Being confronted on character issues isn't pleasant. It hurts our self-image. It humbles us.
But it doesn't harm us. Loving confrontations protect us from our blindness and self-destructiveness.
There is a major difference between confronters and strokers.
Confronters risk our leaving them to tell us a needed truth.
They jeopardize comfort to give us honest love.
Strokers, in contrast, lull us to sleep by idealizing our specialness.
As long as you feel good, they're happy.
This is more addictive, than loving. And it certainly isn't safe.
We all need praise... but praise affirms the truth! Strokers, however, avoid the truth by exclusively praising.
Beware of people who only tell you your good points, justifying it by a desire to be "positive".
They aren't loving you enough to tell you when your attitude or behavior is driving your life over a cliff,
even though you desperately need to know it.
Thank you for this Carolyn,
This helped to affirm for me about my drinking enabler. This was woman who I knew from my church who introduced me to my N saint therapist. This woman, enabler as I will call her, was wealthy and in her 50's, she latched on to me at a time in my life when I was hurting, vulnerable, needy, experiencing memories.
I got sober first when I was 17 and stayed sober in AA throughout my twenties. But when I was in my early thirties I began to drink again to numb the pain that was surfacing from my childhood, it was another level of deeper memories. By this time in my life, at 32, I had already spent what felt like 4 intense years in couch therapy and another 8 years previous with a MFCC. I was tired of therapy and healing. Unconsciously I returned to the bottle at a time when my deepest and most painful wounds were just about to surface. That was also when I returned to the Catholic church and met this enabler church going woman.
She used to provide alcohol for me, keeping her house a constant open door for me. Never did it occur to me to really question her motives, she went to church, seemed friendly enough and had a charming and engaging personality.
At first, the only condition for her friendship was that I just hang out with her and keep her company. Then I had to walk her dog, who I really loved but it eventually became a chore. Then I had to start running errands for her. Slowly I got pulled in. However, I was no saint. Just like she was using me, exploiting me, I was using her for alcohol and a non-confrontational unlimited drunk safe place to drink and hang out.
As my drinking progressed, and my misery from the hang overs as well as my guilt set in, I started to try to stop but enabler would say things like "it is OK -- God loves you no matter what and he knows how much you like to drink, just drink." She drank a lot too and her money pit seemed endless. She flaunted it and spent it on people to buy her friends. Underneath she felt really unworthy and suffered from very low self-esteem.
Many times, lovingly, I tired to tell her about her low self-image as well I would confront her about her exploitation. One of her favorite comments was "I am a giving friend therefore I am entitled to demand that my friends give back to me," can you believe it? I called her on that one once, telling her about unconditional giving and that if she is going to give she better not expect anything in return. Since I am not a taker I could not just keep taking from her, I had to give to her and help her but I felt trapped. I could not pull away enough to get sober -- The vicious cycle in our friendship went on for over two years.
But I eventually did pull away, I got sober, returning to my old ex-drunk AA friends, as we call each other. They loved me and helped pull me away from the toxic enabler from my church.
The bottom line was that she never once said "I think you are drinking too much" or, "I do not think it is a good idea that you drive home, you have had too much to drink." On the contrary, she allowed me to drive home drunk so many times I can't even count.
When I got about 9 months sober I confronted her and asked her why she never tried to tell me that I was drinking too much. She just sat there silently and fearfully - for a woman who loved to talk, she had nothing to say.
That was one of the last times that I ever really spoke with her.
Lise
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I have a different view on enabling, because I blame only myself for my decisions. Noone ever made me drink. People accepted me, some didn't. Some did the sames things as me, and made it seem like fun. But it as always me making those decisions.
X bella
Hi Bella,
My story is NOT about blaming someone else because they MADE me drink ....not even...I take full responsibility for my choice to drink. That was in the story. However, people do enable us...making it easier for us to drink and easier for us to not have to face ourselves.
That is what this woman did for me, she made it easy. But when the pain was too much it was no longer easy. I never asked her to not help me not drink, nor did I ever think that cutting her out of my life was the solution either because I knew that I was the one who had to do it, I had to help me and she was not going to help, especially when push came to shove. Even if she tried to help it was not going to be enough. But if you want to really help a drinker hit their bottom faster than you do not make it easy for them to drink, does that make sense?
When I did get sober I realized what she was doing, enabling, and I knew that I could not enable her so I spoke up. What about her next victim, and she finds them, what if she let's them drive home drunk one night and they kill someone? That is the kind of enabling I am talking about here, is that clear now?
Hmmmm...I think that you are missing the point of the story and what enabling means, in summary, she was not a safe person and she made it easy for me to drink, however, she was not the blame.
I just don't want to enable you here...peace and hugs (((bella)))
Lise
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Hi Bella,
Thanks,
And as you can see, I have changed the habit. It was one of the hardest things I had to conquer in my life and I do not want to be accused of blaming or have my light diminished because someone here wants to point out that at one point, in my past, I chose an enabler.
Peace,
Lise
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Hi Bella,
Thanks,
And as you can see, I have changed the habit. It was one of the hardest things I had to conquer in my life and I do not want to be accused of blaming or have my light diminished because someone here wants to point out that at one point, in my past, I chose an enabler.
Peace,
Lise
I do not feel that I have diminished you in any way Gabben by stating that i have different attitude towards enabling. I am sorry that you feel that way when an alternate view to your own is expressed though.
Bella
Hi Bella,
No - we have the same view...that is clear.
here is a line from my original story:
"I was no saint. Just like she was using me, exploiting me, I was using her for alcohol and a non-confrontational unlimited drunk safe place to drink and hang out."
As you can see the story is NOT about me blaming her for my drinking...it is about telling a story of what enabling and unsafe people look like.
You were accusing me of blaming her for my drinking. That was never the case.
It is not about you having a different view it is about you missing the point of the story.
Hugs ((bella))
Lise
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Hi Bella,
Thanks much. I can understand why you would think that way from the story but as the saying goes, "friends don't let friends drive drunk." Also, she knew that I was out of control, when we love someone, if we really do, we speak up. I was never asking her that question while we WERE friends, I only reflected on it after I got sober. It would be a natural question to ask a friend. "hey did you notice that I was drinking too much and too drunk to drive at times?" her answer "yes!" then I normally I ask, "why then did you not say something?"
We still disagree here but the fact is she WAS an enabler and I AM NOW sober.
Peace and thank you for all of the good insight and good stuff you did point out, blessings to you Bella.
Lise
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Hey - wow - I may never catch up till this weekend, but just checking in on this thread... : )
Hi, Iphi,
I haven't gotten to this part yet, but I agree - it's very touching...
"where Cloud said that to take risks and make the most of your life you need a deep pool of association of safe people so that failure would not be devastating. You can't take the big risks to accomplish big things if that deep web of safe people, like a net for a trapeze artist, isn't there. As much as sometimes we are the trapeze artists, we also form the strands in the safety net for others to support their reaching for their best lives.
My pastor often cautions us to not reveal our highest dreams and expectations to just anyone, lest they get nipped in the bud by nay-sayers. (He calls them the "we be not ablers" ... lol. Wise words, I think.
It's good to read you, dear Iphi... thanks for posting!
Hello, Shy,
Thank you for posting, too... it's a pleasure to meet you. I agree... this is a great book for simple, practical relationship info.
For years, I've been around the loop with that vicious circle of idealizing/demonizing... and not just as the target of it.
I've actually done it myself, in a way... quieter, much more withdrawn, and yet basically the same thing.
With me, I think it was because I always figured everyone else had life so well sorted... and I was the only odd-one-out.
So when someone who seemed to have it all together was decent to me, I'd sell out to them in a heartbeat.
Then, when it quickly became clear that they were less than ideal, I'd scratch them off my list. (Well, some of them... sadly, not always the right ones.)
Later in life, when I began to find a bit of my voice, I was so starved for emotional connection that I'd gush too much and - of all things - attract people
who were very much like I used to be. Then - when I could not devote myself to them 100 percent - I was the awful one.
Ugh.
So - it is definitely time to be out of that loop! Sorry, I'm exhausted and this is quite babbly, but I hope you get what I'm trying to say.
Again, great to have you posting. Thanks!
Lise - I haven't read all of the exchanges between you and Bella, but it sounds like you've got it pretty well sorted... : )
Since I quit drinking 3 years ago, I've experienced some serious anger at my parents for always encouraging that destructive habit and never
questioning whether or not it was harming me. I guess I'm ready to give up that resentment at last, since I understand better that it never occurred to them
that masking emotions (and reality!) was a bad thing. In many ways, it's all they've ever known... and they're clearly not interested in what I have to say about
life without alcohol, so... yeah, definitely not safe people. Sure wish it didn't take half a lifetime to learn this stuff, but hey - at least we're learning - still! - and not stuck in any permanent ruts!
Love to y'all,
Carolyn
P.S. ((((((Bella))))))
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In my initial post on this thread, I launched directly into the portion of the book about
the interpersonal characteristics of unsafe people, which
should actually have been the second segment. oops.
I think that the first part is still worth reviewing,so... here it is :)
It's noted that unsafe people can be particularly difficult to spot...
"Quite often, unsafe people appear winsome and promising, and their character problems are often subtle.
So how do we know whom to trust?
While there are many different kinds of unsafe people, many of them fall under three categories:
the abandoners,
the critics,
and the irresponsibles.
Abandoners
are people who can start a relationship, but who can't finish it.
They begin with statements about companionship and commitment, but they leave us when we need them most.
Often, abandoners have been abandoned themselves. Sometimes, afraid of true closeness, they prefer shallow aquaintances.
Others are looking for perfect friends, and they leave when the cracks start showing.
Abandoners destroy trust. Those they leave in their wake are apt to say, "I'll never have anyone who will be there for me."
This is a far cry from God's ideal, that we be "rooted and established in love." (Ephesians 3:17)
And those who continually pick abandoners often become depressed, develop compulsive behaviors, or worse.
Critics
are people who take a parental role with everyone they know. They are judgmental, speak the truth without love, and have no room for grace or forgiveness.
They are more concerned with confronting errors than they are with making connections.
For example, they often jump on doctrinal and ethical bandwagons (which are important) and neglect issues of love, compassion,
and forgiveness.
They often confuse weakness with sinfulness, and therefore condemn others when they have problems.
Critics tend to point the finger outside, rather than at themselves. They will sometimes become indignant at the troubles others cause, and
propose solutions like, "think, feel, believe, and act like my group" as the cure-all.
Critics often deeply love truth and righteousness. Because they are clear thinkers, they can be good people to go to for information.
But don't go to them for relationship, for their truth often comes poisoned with judgmentalism.
If you're attracted to critical people, you may find relief in their clarity of thought and purity of vision, but you'll also find yourself
guilt-ridden, compliant, and unable to make mistakes without tremendous anxiety.
Next time... the irresponsibles. (My personal favorite :|)
-
While there are many different kinds of unsafe people, many of them fall under three categories:
the abandoners,
the critics,
and the irresponsibles.
Abandoners
are people who can start a relationship, but who can't finish it.
They begin with statements about companionship and commitment, but they leave us when we need them most.
Often, abandoners have been abandoned themselves. Sometimes, afraid of true closeness, they prefer shallow aquaintances.
Others are looking for perfect friends, and they leave when the cracks start showing.
Critics:
are people who take a parental role with everyone they know. They are judgmental, speak the truth without love, and have no room for grace or forgiveness.
They are more concerned with confronting errors than they are with making connections.
Critics often deeply love truth and righteousness. Because they are clear thinkers, they can be good people to go to for information.
But don't go to them for relationship, for their truth often comes poisoned with judgmentalism.
If you're attracted to critical people, you may find relief in their clarity of thought and purity of vision, but you'll also find yourself
guilt-ridden, compliant, and unable to make mistakes without tremendous anxiety.
Hi Carolyn ,
Thank you for this. The parts above are the parts I identify myself with.
As I was reading I was reminded of how much shame I felt when I first had to come to terms with what a critic I was and still am at times in my life. Working through the layers of old anger and hurt...which takes great self care and compassion.
Also, I fit into the abandoner category too. I used to have the hardest time getting close to people, that was what took me into therapy in my early twenties. I used to keep everyone at arms length distance. It was hard for me to open up and trust people because those that were supposed to protect me and love me, my parents, hurt me so deeply when I was abandoned as a child.
It would be fair and loving to say that each and all of us have been "unsafe" at times. Nobody can claim to be the perfect loving mom or sister or person. We have to admit that we make mistakes and acknowledge the people that we hurt and admit why...because I was frightened or I was jealous etc.. For me, I have had to really stare me in the face, stare...and then see my behaviors, not what I project or think I am but what am I actually doing? Then I accept me but usually after a while of beating myself up, although I do that less to myself and find others do it more to me to alleviate their own feelings of shame.
The real difference between the safe and the unsafe is that the usafe can never really acknowledge the pain they caused or admit to their own unsafe behaviors.
It is important that we just keep working to grow and see ourselves and heal the deep wounds in our heart. It is also important for me to practice thinking about others more than myself (with no agenda but to love and serve) and to recognize in me when I am self-seeking and fearful. I am human.
I make mistakes and I have hurt others in my life, many times. But to admit that to myself and God, to admit that to others and acknowledge the pain I have caused them is to feel the forgiveness for myself. And, takes me one more step closer to becoming a more "safe" and loving person.
The day I die is the day I stop healing.
Peace and love,
Lise
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Hello to all:
I was just thinking here that no one can be perfect, or even close to perfect either. Everyone has faults and failings, and it is human to err (often!). Sainthood is an impossible goal, and enough to make a person's head reel just thinking of it.
Speaking of alcohol and drinking. I know of people who are alcoholics, and you could end up getting a verbal or actual wallop across the face if you even hinted that they might do something about their problem.
There are many clear thinkers out there who are not critical. In fact that was the kind of person I approached, personally, back when I could not (in midst of N-trauma) think for myself. What I did NOT need then was the "there, there, dear" approach.
I found this on a site:
http://www.philosophytalk.org/SaintsandHeroes.htm
""What are moral saints and heroes? Saints and heroes are people that go above and beyond the call of duty. In philosophical jargon, this is called "supererogation". Most moral theories divide actions into three categories: that which is obligatory, that which is forbidden, and that which is optional. Would we have better lives if we were more like the saints and heroes? Ken introduces Susan Wolf, professor at the University of North Carolina, Chapel Hill. Wolf defines a moral saint as a person that is as morally good as can possibly be. Wolf says that while it would be good for there to be moral saints, she wouldn't want to be too close to them. Wolf distinguishes two kinds of saints: loving saints, people that act out of love for everyone, and dutiful saints, people that act out of feelings of duty or obligation. ""
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Speaking of alcohol and drinking. I know of people who are alcoholics, and you could end up getting a verbal or actual wallop across the face if you even hinted that they might do something about their problem.
Sure you could get slapped or verbally assaulted but wouldn't you want to take that risk than watch someone you love drink themselves to death or possible kill someone while driving under the influence.
Do you know why people get violent when you confront with the truth?
Because the truth hurts and we automatically defend ourselves when something hurts.
The truth also sticks, it is something we can't shake easily.
Here is a favorite quote of mine:
All truth passes through three stages. First, it is ridiculed. Second, it is violently opposed. Third, it is accepted as being self-evident.
Arthur Schopenhauer (1788 - 1860)
-
Oh yes, Gabben, I would be prepared to take that risk. Problem is that (aside from the risk of possible assault) there are none so blind as those who will not see. Talking to a drunk is like talking to the wall.
A good friend of mine's wife is an alcoholic (she is now 70 and I am amazed the drinking hasn't killed her). He has tried everything, but everything. He even committed her to a psychiatric centre (private hospital), in a moment of desperation. Well, she checked herself out the next day, and refused to speak with the resident psychiatrist in there. Sure, the truth hurts her, but it evidently isn't sticking to her. I met with this couple recently, and in the short space of a dinner, she got down two bottles of wine all on her own ((not to mention the drinks she had before I even got there).
She has made an exhibition of herself on many an occasion, but, no, no sign of the truth becoming self-evident to her.
Her husband tried the futile exercise of always searching the house for the bottles, and emptying them out down the sink. She merely went out and bought more. I think he has given up.
A lot of things are easier said than done. In a perfect world I could rehab a whole raft of people, just by telling them something was going to eventually kill them. But, well, it just does not work like that.
All the best
Hermes
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Talking to a drunk is like talking to the wall.
Hi Hermes,
Excuse me? I am an ex-drunk.
I am so glad that the people who confronted me did not clasify me as "the wall." I am so glad that people did speak to me, again and again and again....why because they were not afraid or lazy and because they loved me.
Lise
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Dear Gabben:
I am sorry Gabben, and I am not classifying you as anything. How do I know you were an "ex-drunk"?
I am glad those people dealt with you as they did. I am merely saying what my experience has been with that particular person I mention. I am not afraid of speaking to people who have a problem, be it drinking or any other problem.
I do not have anyone in my immediate family (nor have I had) anyone who had what is called a drink problem. If I had, I expect I would have spoken to them day in day out. I am not an expert on alcoholism, by any means, and I repeat my main experience would be the woman I mentioned, because she and her husband have been friends of mine a long time. He has also done his best, day in day out, to talk to her, and it has all been to no avail. She has been vituperative and verbally abusive to him when he has done so, but he has still tried. So what I am saying is that the "talking to" the person evidently does not ALWAYS work.
Another thing is that while I try to be as helpful as I can to people I meet in real life, I am not cut out to be a crusader. It has been quite a self-crusade (LOL) just to get mayself back to "self" after the N-trauma.
All the best
Hermes
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Dear Gabben:
I am glad those people dealt with you as they did.
Ouch - Hermes, are the people who drink objects? Are we supposed to be dealt with?
How about trying to use the word caring for example: "I'm glad that their were people who cared about you."
It is important here on the board to really think about what you write and how it affects others but at the same time not squish your own voice -- it is hard - I have to work on this myself.
Lise
-
Come on, Gabben, give me a break here! This is not a class on literary style, and I don't know about you, but I have a 10 hour working day behind me. Dealing with also means taking care of. So how about it?
Walking on eggshells is not good on this board, or any other board. IMO.
All the best
Hermes
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Thanks Bella. I understand what you are saying. On the other hand, it would be very difficult for me to understand actual alcoholism, drug taking, because I, well, I just can't understand it, not having been there.
Deep pain, that I can understand, because I have been there. There are all kinds of theories about addictions, mainly because why do some people in deep pain, terrible emotional pain, not go on alcohol or drugs, while others do.
Good to hear from you.
Hermes
-
I will say that the only time all day when I do not have pain trying to overwhelm me is when I take a beer at night.It is a powerful drug and very, very easy to get hooked on, I would think.
I think that anyone in pain could get hooked, fairly easily(IMO) . Ami
-
I just don't know, Ami. A beer is such a pleasant drink, and refreshing.
I know that one could get hooked on alcohol, as witness the statistics out there. I understand your pain Ami, and I just don't want to say to you that maybe you are entitled to have that glass of beer once a day. Gosh, I am now so afraid of saying the wrong thing........
Hugs
Hermes
-
Thanks Bella. I understand what you are saying. On the other hand, it would be very difficult for me to understand actual alcoholism, drug taking, because I, well, I just can't understand it, not having been there.
Exactly - if you can't understand then why make so many judgements and hold so many opinions about something you have zero experience with and have zero understanding?
Hermes -- you seem to come across here on the board as having all knowledge about all subjects. There are many posts and many contributions that you have made to the board which I really appreciate. However, when it comes to drinking and addiction I would study and read a bit more....then make some statements:
Excerpt from Big Book of AA.
We believe, and so suggested a few years ago, that the action of alcohol on these chronic alcoholics is a manifestation of an allergy; that the phenomenon of craving is limited to this class and never occurs in the average temperate drinker. These allergic types can never safely use alcohol in any form at all; and once having formed the habit and found they cannot break it, once having lost their self-confidence, their reliance upon things human, their problems pile up on them and become astonishingly difficult to solve.
Frothy emotional appeal seldom suffices. The message which can interest and hold these alcoholic people must have depth and weight. In nearly all cases, their ideals must be grounded in a power greater than themselves, if they are to re-create their lives.
If any feel that as psychiatrists directing a hospital for alcoholics we appear somewhat sentimental, let them stand with us a while on the firing line, see the tragedies, the despairing wives, the little children; let the solving of these problems become a part of their daily work, and even of their sleeping moments, and the most cyni cal will not wonder that we have accepted and encouraged this movement. We feel, after many years of experience, that we have found nothing which has contributed more to the rehabilitation of these men than the altruistic movement now growing up among them.
Men and women drink essentially because they like the effect produced by alcohol. The sensation is so elusive that, while they admit it is injurious, they cannot after a time differentiate the true from the false. To them, their alcoholic life seems the only normal one. They are restless, irritable and discontented, unless they can again experience the sense of ease and comfort which comes at once by taking a few drinks-drinks which they see others taking with impunity. After they have succumbed to the desire again, as so many do, and the phenomenon of craving develops, they pass through the well-known stages of a spree, emerging remorseful, with a firm resolution not to drink again. This is repeated over and over, and unless this person can experience an entire psychic change there is very little hope of his recovery.
I have gone through an entire psychic - I am a recovered alcoholic.
Lise
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Gabben:
Now you are trying my patience, and you are judging me. First of all I do not have all knowledge about ALL subjects (and I do not like your tone either, because it sounds to me like sarcasm). I can understand pain, and I know about alcoholism, but I have not been an alcoholic myself. That is all I was saying.
I do not have time to read up even more on addiction and alcoholism, but I have read about it, and have met many many people who have an alcoholic family member.
I would like to have time to study many more aspects of a whole variety of topics. Unfortunately, at the moment, that is impossible, because I am working a rather long day.
"So many judgements.....................zero experience". Dear me, Gabben. You are beginning to sound like sour grapes. Sorry for the pun....
All the best
Hermes
-
While there are many different kinds of unsafe people, many of them fall under three categories:
the abandoners,
the critics,
and the irresponsibles.
Abandoners
are people who can start a relationship, but who can't finish it.
They begin with statements about companionship and commitment, but they leave us when we need them most.
Often, abandoners have been abandoned themselves. Sometimes, afraid of true closeness, they prefer shallow aquaintances.
Others are looking for perfect friends, and they leave when the cracks start showing.
Critics:
are people who take a parental role with everyone they know. They are judgmental, speak the truth without love, and have no room for grace or forgiveness.
They are more concerned with confronting errors than they are with making connections.
Critics often deeply love truth and righteousness. Because they are clear thinkers, they can be good people to go to for information.
But don't go to them for relationship, for their truth often comes poisoned with judgmentalism.
If you're attracted to critical people, you may find relief in their clarity of thought and purity of vision, but you'll also find yourself
guilt-ridden, compliant, and unable to make mistakes without tremendous anxiety.
Hi Carolyn ,
Thank you for this. The parts above are the parts I identify myself with.
As I was reading I was reminded of how much shame I felt when I first had to come to terms with what a critic I was and still am at times in my life. Working through the layers of old anger and hurt...which takes great self care and compassion.
Also, I fit into the abandoner category too. I used to have the hardest time getting close to people, that was what took me into therapy in my early twenties. I used to keep everyone at arms length distance. It was hard for me to open up and trust people because those that were supposed to protect me and love me, my parents, hurt me so deeply when I was abandoned as a child.
It would be fair and loving to say that each and all of us have been "unsafe" at times. Nobody can claim to be the perfect loving mom or sister or person. We have to admit that we make mistakes and acknowledge the people that we hurt and admit why...because I was frightened or I was jealous etc.. For me, I have had to really stare me in the face, stare...and then see my behaviors, not what I project or think I am but what am I actually doing? Then I accept me but usually after a while of beating myself up, although I do that less to myself and find others do it more to me to alleviate their own feelings of shame.
The real difference between the safe and the unsafe is that the usafe can never really acknowledge the pain they caused or admit to their own unsafe behaviors.
It is important that we just keep working to grow and see ourselves and heal the deep wounds in our heart. It is also important for me to practice thinking about others more than myself (with no agenda but to love and serve) and to recognize in me when I am self-seeking and fearful. I am human.
I make mistakes and I have hurt others in my life, many times. But to admit that to myself and God, to admit that to others and acknowledge the pain I have caused them is to feel the forgiveness for myself. And, takes me one more step closer to becoming a more "safe" and loving person.
The day I die is the day I stop healing.
Peace and love,
Lise
Hi, Lise,
Me, too... critical spirit and abandoner... by default, I think, since I had no idea what emotional intimacy might look like.
I'd try to pay my own penance for these faults and lacks by opening myself up to the absolutely wrong people... and then the entire vicious cycle would begin again.
About this:
It would be fair and loving to say that each and all of us have been "unsafe" at times. Nobody can claim to be the perfect loving mom or sister or person. We have to admit that we make mistakes and acknowledge the people that we hurt and admit why...because I was frightened or I was jealous etc.. For me, I have had to really stare me in the face, stare...and then see my behaviors, not what I project or think I am but what am I actually doing?
Exactly. I agree. It would be fair and loving and just and right and honest and transparent and... true! Beware of anyone who claims to be too innocent, pure, wounded, or w h a t e v e r to even consider that she/he just may be wrong.
Love and peace to you, as well,
Carolyn
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Thanks Carolyn - your post is a soothing balm on my achy, fiesty, emotional and tempermental spirit today - hugs.
Lise
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Thanks Carolyn - your post is a soothing balm on my achy, fiesty, emotional and tempermental spirit today - hugs.
Lise
Thanks for telling me that, Lise. I have those times, too... plenty of them...
reminders that we're human, I think. Reminders of our need for One greater than ourselves.
Hugs back,
Carolyn
Here's the rest on that third general category of unsafe people, along with the critics and the abandoners... the sort to whom I've often been so drawn... the Irresponsibles.
Irresponsibles are people who don't take care of themselves or others.
They have problems with delaying gratification, they don't consider the consequences of their actions, and they don't follow through on their commitments.
If you depend on them to do what they say, you can end up in financial, functional, and emotional trouble.
If you're drawn to irresponsible people, you may be doing the following:
You pick up after them.
You apologize to others for them.
You make excuses for them.
You give them chance after chance after chance.
You pay for their sins and forgetfulness.
You nag them.
You resent them.
Many irresponsibles are caring, warm, fun-loving people.
There's no place in their head for tomorrow...
They're often empathic and understanding, but while I like irresponsibles... I just don't trust them.
Because the irresponsible has problems in delaying gratification, he or she often becomes alcoholic, addicted to sexual gratification,
and in debt.
You may be providing a safety net for an irresponsible. For some reason, you end up paying for his or her problems.
We could be talking about a friend, an adult child, a spouse, or a business relationship.
For every irresponsible, there is an enabler, someone who protects them.
Next - the personal traits of unsafe people.
-
Carolyn:
Yes, we all do have those times, and yes it is human to feel pain, heartache, anger. IMHO it is inhuman to lash out at someone who has not done you any harm, I don't care how bad you feel. (seeing perceived slights where there are none).
Sorry, but that is how I feel about it.
All the best
Hermes
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Hermes,
Are you passively calling me inhuman?
Not nice to insinuate that someone is inhuman, is it?
Please really look at my posts, there is nothing there but my direct and assertive voice.
I'm terrible sorry if you perceive my posts as being inhuman and hurtful, that is not my intention.
It is just my intention to be honest and use my voice.
Sleep well,
Lise
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Carolyn:
Yes, we all do have those times, and yes it is human to feel pain, heartache, anger. IMHO it is inhuman to lash out at someone who has not done you any harm, I don't care how bad you feel. (seeing perceived slights where there are none).
Sorry, but that is how I feel about it.
All the best
Hermes
Hermes,
I hear you and I respect your feelings.
However, I do think that "inhuman" is an exaggeration, at best, and a regrettable choice of words.
There've been people both here on this board and in real life whose attitudes (as I interpreted them) were extremely triggering to me... horrible reminders of previous inhuman relationships... especially when it comes to issues of entitlement.
Have you never perceived slights where none was intended? I have. It's easily done, especially in an online environment.
I'd only like to see more benefit of the doubt given and applied... but that's just me.
Sincerely,
Carolyn
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For crying out loud!!!! I am not calling you ANYTHING
"""IMHO it is inhuman to lash out at someone who has not done you any harm"". And it is. It is also most unkind. And no, I have never perceived slights where there are none. I made no attack on anyone here, I was posting on a subject, and boommmm, out of blue I am blown out of the water. Please read MY posts.
I do not trigger easily, not any more, not since back in the N-days, but rudeness does get my back up, and sarcasm, well, what can I say.
All the best and good night to all
Hermes
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Have you never perceived slights where none was intended? I have. It's easily done, especially in an online environment.
I'd only like to see more benefit of the doubt given and applied... but that's just me.
I have too - it is so easy to do here but nothing to be ashamed of or to make others feel ashamed.
Thank you Carolyn for your gentle voice.
Peace,
Lise
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Hermes -- I never meant you harm...I was just speaking up.
Peace and sleep well -- hugs ((((Hermes)))
Lise
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Personal Traits of Unsafe People: (yes, still playing catch-up, since I goofed and began with their Interpersonal Traits)
1. Unsafe people think they "have it all together", instead of admitting their weaknesses.
2. Unsafe people are religious, instead of spiritual.
3. Unsafe people are defensive, instead of open to feedback.
4. Unsafe people are self-righteous, instead of humble.
5. Unsafe people only apologize, instead of changing their behavior.
6. Unsafe people avoid working on their problems, instead of dealing with them.
7. Unsafe people demand trust, instead of earning it. (oh, this one really gets me!)
8. Unsafe people believe they are perfect, instead of admitting their faults.
9. Unsafe people blame others, instead of taking responsibility.
10. Unsafe people lie, instead of telling the truth.
11. Unsafe people are stagnant, instead of growing.
Reminder:
"One of the things that we want to emphasize throughout this book is that no one is perfect.
Safe people will at times stumble and be 'unsafe' for, after all, they are sinners, too.
So do not expect perfection.
Instead, when you are measuring someone's character, look at these traits in terms of degrees. Everyone lies at some time or in some way. But not everyone is a pathological liar. Look for degrees of imperfection. If a person seems willing to change, forgive him graciously and work with him. But if he resists you, proceed with caution."
-
Interestingly, Dr John Townsend's more recent book [2004] entitled
"Who's Pushing Your Buttons: Handling the Difficult People in Your Life"
Dr John Townsend in this more recent 2004 book [as Safe People and avoid those people who are unsafe, was written in 1996]
now has an altogether new approach,
in so much as .... not avoiding ....
Book Description
Dr. Townsend introduces a revolutionary approach for reaching out to, confronting, negotiating with and setting appropriate limits for the difficult people in our life.
From the Inside Flap
You can regain control of your life and stop the stress
We all have at least one--a difficult person who know how to push our buttons and make us crazy. When we're really at wits end, our first inclination is to walk away.
But Dr. John Townsend says that in his experience, most people give up too soon on their button-pusher. "They have a limited repertoire of responses, none of which are effective. So they resign themselves in hopelessness."
Instead of leaving your spouse or date, severing family ties, or breaking off a friendship in order to find peace, why not try something new?
In this insightful book, Dr. Townsend introduces a revolutionary approach for reaching out to, confronting negotiating with, and setting appropriate limits for the button-pushers you know.
It's an approach that holds out great hope for difficult people--and great encouragement for those of us who love them.
"Difficult, button-pushing people can and do change, in deep and long-lasting ways, all the time. I have seen it, and many other have witnessed and been a part of it. God has been in the business of changing difficult people for eons." the author of this book assures us. Find out what role you can play in changing your relationship.
~ ~ ~
Which is more in line with how I perceive God in the Bible, as he is very much in the business of us reaching out to people.
Love, Leah
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The book Safe People looks at four ways in which sins and wrongdoings against us may have affected our development:
1) Our bonding process was disrupted.
2) Our bonding process was disrupted.
3) We were not seen as whole people, with good and bad traits.
4) We were not allowed to mature into adults.
Any of these sins against us may affect our ability to form relationships with safe people.
First, re: disruption of our bonding process...
Bonded people are able to reach out for comfort and receive it.
(On a personal note here, I've seen within myself and experienced from others how poorly-bonded folks may even
be able to reach out, and yet find themselves unable to receive such comfort! There is a difference between
recognizing the need for the comforts of relationship and being able to receive safe comfort.)
The bonding process is often disrupted in the following ways:
Detachment: someone being emotionally inaccessible to us
Abandonment: someone connecting, then leaving
Inconsistency: someone being unstable as a love object
Criticism: unloving attacks upon our needy aspects
Abuse: violations of our soul that destroy trust
These problems can be devastating to the long process of learning to trust God and people.
The person who experiences disruption of bonding recoils and withdraws emotionally.
She/he does not experience her/his need, the hunger for love.
Instead, he buries his needs deep inside, so he can no longer be hurt.
This withdrawal is called defensive devaluation.
Defensive devaluation is a protective device that makes love bad, trust unimportant, and people "no darn good" anyway.
People who have been deeply hurt in their relationships will often devalue love so it doesn't hurt so much. And they often become resigned to never loving again.
People who are unbonded do funny things in relationships:
They don't look for safe people: there's no hunger.
They don't recognize safe people: no one is safe.
They don't reach out to safe people: why get hurt again?
Although unbonded people often have friends and families, their isolation is deep and can cause many serious problems.
A person who cannot bond may suffer from addictions, depression, emptiness,
excessive caretaking,
fear of being treated like an object,
fears of closeness, feelings of guilt, feelings of unreality, idealism, lack of joy, loss of meaning,
negative bonds, outbursts of anger,
panic, shallow relationships,
or thought problems such as confusion, distorted thinking, and irrational fears.
Are you unbonded?
Has your ability to be vulnerable, to be needy, to trust been disrupted?
Do you find yourself devaluing safe people?
***************************
Stopping here, because all of the above is what I see in my mother, for one.
She passed on a twisted version of this to me, and through different stages of my life I've acted out the effects of this unbonded/poorly bonded condition
via various means. What I used to think was attributable to fear of abandonment (similar root, but not quite the same) is so much better explained to me by the above...
I am astounded.
Much more to come...
-
Dear Leah,
In response to all of the comments on this thread you posted this piece on "pushing buttons." And you brought up the shame dumping thread again.
I could be wrong but what are you trying to say?
I want to hear YOUR voice, not Dr John Townsend's.
I want to know you REALLY think.
I want to hear what you REALLY feel.
I want to hear the REAL Leah...in response to the real people.
I could be wrong but I perceive the posting on this board by you as passive aggression which I have been guilty of myself. But that does not make me an abuser or a NPD or a shame dumper...
How about some compassion....and realization that people feel ashamed, very painful, people hurt deeply...? How about it, can you show compassion? Or, empathy? I hear what you are not saying...in other words, where is your heart?
But most importantly people are not perfect...and not everyone who expresses anger or lashes out or criticize others, from time to time, but is aware of their deep hurt and human shortcoming is a NPD, shame dumper or abuser...the world is not so black and white, it took me a long time to see it too. But to passively insinuate this IS SHAME DUMPING -- if that is what you are doing....be honest now.
Have you ever hurt anyone Leah? Have you ever acted out passively? Have you ever criticized anyone? Have you ever lashed out while driving you car? Have you ever lied? Have you ever drank too much, ate too much, cried to much, manipulated too much, slept too much?
I have done all of the above...because I am human and I am not perfect -- but I am trying to grow.
It's OK to be angry and express it. If this makes you angry, then please express it...tell me how you feel, what you think and what you want. I can take it...Your voice is precious even if it is angry.
Lise
I am angry
-
Personal Traits of Unsafe People: (yes, still playing catchup, since I goofed and began with their Interpersonal Traits)
1. Unsafe people think they "have it all together", instead of admitting their weaknesses.
2. Unsafe people are religious, instead of spiritual.
3. Unsafe people are defensive, instead of open to feedback.
4. Unsafe people are self-righteous, instead of humble.
5. Unsafe people only apologize, instead of changing their behavior.
6. Unsafe people avoid working on their problems, instead of dealing with them.
7. Unsafe people demand trust, instead of earning it. (oh, this one really gets me!)
8. Unsafe people believe they are perfect, instead of admitting their faults.
9. Unsafe people blame others, instead of taking responsibility.
10. Unsafe people lie, instead of telling the truth.
11. Unsafe people are stagnant, instead of growing.
Reminder:
"One of the things that we want to emphasize throughout this book is that no one is perfect.Safe people will at times stumble and be 'unsafe' for, after all, they are sinners, too.
So do not expect perfection.
Instead, when you are measuring someone's character, look at these traits in terms of degrees. Everyone lies at some time or in some way. But not everyone is a pathological liar. Look for degrees of imperfection. If a person seems willing to change, forgive him graciously and work with him. But if he resists you, proceed with caution."
Carolyn,
Thank you so much for this excerpt - it goes hand in hand with what I was trying to express yesterday. Another soothing balm on my achy heart today.
Thank you!
Hugs,
Lise
-
((((Lise)))) you're welcome. Amen.
My hot buttons have shifted and relocated, but I still have some... and I can really relate.
Knowing that I used to give some people the impression that I thought I was perfect... well, that has really changed my views.
Here I was, feeling shaky as all get-out, and terrified of other folks' anger, and I had some people telling me that I was intimidating to them... I could not imagine!
It's most helpful to learn to see ourselves through someone else's eyes.
Carolyn
-
Dear Lise,
I am very sorry to know that you are feeling angry. Any anger that you may or may not be feeling, please remember, that that emotion belongs to you, as the owner of that feeling, emotion.
I have been engaged on the board, on and off, for a time today, whereas, you have just signed onto the board, I believe.
I am not feeling angry, not at all, sorry, if that upsets you in anyway, to know that I am not angry.
Please refrain from labelling me, incorrectly, as feeling angry, as truly, I am not.
I have felt peace today, with precious answers, that I have sought during the last few days, after that lady imparted her words to me, in REAL LIFE.
Please know that my life is not centred around the VESMB board. Which may be a surprise, or not.
This board is about people, in REAL LIFE who are members, and who sign onto the board, to express, their situations, past and /or present, of how they are feeling, how an experience has affected them in some way etc etc., what they are working through.
All to express their own voice, and thoughts, questions, answers, etc etc.
Surprised, that you have forgotton my thread, which I had written that I was sitting with and working on, the day before yesterday,
which I have posted about the lady, onto the Shame Dumping thread, which incidently, i had started that thread weeks ago, and I feel free to, and quite at liberty, to recall it, as and when needed, for my REAL LIFE situation(s), as is appropriate.
As I have witnessed others here too, do, as they have need to.
I have only posted about Dr John Townsend's 2004 book onto this thread, in light of his new approach, in regard of his previous work, in 1996.
That's all, sorry your feel as you do, sincerely.
But, I do not feel comfortable, with you, Lise, in light of what I have read, i.e. the false accusations you are making against me, as admit it, you are jumping to assumptions, wrongly, and attemping to "Fortune Tell" and "Mind Read" from your highly emotive angry feelings, that you own.
I have done nothing to you, Lise, to deserve such treatment, with your words.
However, I understand where angry comes from, now.
Yours,
VESMB member ~ Leah
-
Hi Leah,
Thank you for expressing your voice !!!! I hear you, I may not agree with all but I am glad that you expressed yourself.
Peace and hugs,
Lise
-
Post deleted.
Yamen, Shy, Watcher, Observer—and various other names. I have asked you to post under one name. You are one person with one view of the world. I, and many others, would appreciate hearing that view. Your pretending to be many people all of whom share the same view, however, is not allowed on this board. E-mail me.
Richard
-
Hi Yamen,
Is your behavior here safe?
How do you think others and myself here on the board feel when people suddenly pop up out of now where, potential cyber trolls, and insinuate indirectly that someone here is an unsafe person because they expressed their intuitive, or perception, with honesty and respect for the person they were questioning -- such as I did?
Your post is "unsafe."
Will you please tell us who you are and identify yourself to the board? Otherwise, your post and presence is under the pretense of disguise which is dishonest and deceptive.
(On a separate note - I find it interesting that whenever Leah is confronted strange (meaning unfamiliar) people show up out of no where to defend her.)
Is the sock-puppet back? I'm flagging Yamen's post.
Lise
-
Interestingly, Dr John Townsend's more recent book [2004] entitled
"Who's Pushing Your Buttons: Handling the Difficult People in Your Life"
Dr John Townsend in this more recent 2004 book [as Safe People and avoid those people who are unsafe, was written in 1996]
now has an altogether new approach,
in so much as .... not avoiding ....
~ ~ ~
Which is more in line with how I perceive God in the Bible, as he is very much in the business of us reaching out to people.
Love, Leah
For the sake of clarity, I'd like to note that I've not yet completed the book Safe People. I've been posting about it here in real-time, as I read it, and am only now on the section describing "how we lost our safety".
That being said, I've not read anything yet in this book suggesting that we should give up on people or proceed in anything resembling an unGodly fashion in our relationships. The most I've read so far is the suggestion to proceed with caution when dealing with people who are clearly less than safe. In addition, I'd like to re-quote a reminded which was previously posted, as noted in this book:
Reminder:
"One of the things that we want to emphasize throughout this book is that no one is perfect.
Safe people will at times stumble and be 'unsafe' for, after all, they are sinners, too.
So do not expect perfection.
Instead, when you are measuring someone's character, look at these traits in terms of degrees. Everyone lies at some time or in some way. But not everyone is a pathological liar. Look for degrees of imperfection. If a person seems willing to change, forgive him graciously and work with him. But if he resists you, proceed with caution."
Thus far, I have seen no startling difference in approach between this older book of Drs. Cloud and Townsend and this newer edition of a different book, written to possibly a different audience, about the topic of "difficult" people, and not "safe people".
In an attempt to avoid drawing false conclusions about this book I'm reading, I'll continue - both reading and posting - till the end.
Carolyn
-
Dear Y Amen,
I think that when s/one enters a conflict, as you did, as an unknown'"participant", they have greatly diminished their viewpoint.My sense is that you are a regular board member and "we", are like "voting"--we only get ONE vote. Ami
-
Hi Yamen,
Is your behavior here safe?
How do you think others and myself here on the board feel when people suddenly pop up out of now where, potential cyber trolls, and insinuate indirectly that someone here is an unsafe person because they expressed their intuitive, or perception, with honesty and respect for the person they were questioning -- such as I did?
Your post is "unsafe."
Will you please tell us who you are and identify yourself to the board? Otherwise, your post and presence is under the pretense of disguise which is dishonest and deceptive.
(On a separate note - I find it interesting that whenever Leah is confronted strange (meaning unfamiliar) people show up out of no where to defend her.)
Is the sock-puppet back? I'm flagging Yamen's post.
Lise
Dear Lise,
Personally, I ignore posts by folks who don't take the time or effort to introduce themselves, and suddenly attempt to insert their opinion out of the clear blue sky on a thread in which they (supposedly) have had no involvement.
To be clear - I'm not saying that you shouldn't address this person, Lise... only stating my view of it, since you mentioned how others on the board feel about such strange (as you qualified the word) posts. Come to think of it, I haven't stated my feelings yet, have I?
Let's see... is "suspicious" a feeling? Doubtful. Untrusting. Why? I sense ulterior motives. That's enough reason for me to ignore it.
Thanks for pointing out the un-safeness of the post by Yeman, Lise... I am learning so much!
With love,
Carolyn
-
Personally, I ignore posts by folks who don't take the time or effort to introduce themselves, and suddenly attempt to insert their opinion out of the clear blue sky on a thread in which they (supposedly) have had no involvement.
Yep - good idea. I felt that need to say something here -- but ignoring works for me too sometimes.
To be clear - I'm not saying that you shouldn't address this person, Lise... only stating my view of it, since you mentioned how others on the board feel about such strange (as you qualified the word) posts. come to think of it, I haven't stated my feelings yet, have I?
Really good point you made here - I WAS speaking for the board - I missed that one.
Let's see... is "suspicious" a feeling? doubtful. Entrusting. Why? I sense ulterior motives. That's enough reason for me to ignore it.
I hear ya.
Thanks for pointing out the un-safeness of the post by Yeman, Lise... I am learning so much!
Carolyn, Thank you for expressing yourself, validating and supporting me. It helps.
Love,
Lise
-
On a separate note - I find it interesting that whenever Leah is confronted strange (meaning unfamiliar) people show up out of no where to defend her.)
Is the sock-puppet back? I'm flagging Yamen's post.
Lise
Dear Dr. Grossman
Would you please be so kind as to Confirm that I have nothing whatsover to do with the personage of "Yamen" who posted after Lise's posting of false accusations about me, which were totally unfounded, with her angry emotions.
I am NOT prepared to be dragged through another Gabbenangel episode of Baiting and Gaslighting, as per last year.
Lies and false accusations, sabotage, gaslighting, from my NPD FOO was the reason for my joining this Voicelessness forum.
My ISP is NOT that of Yamen's ISP and I only have 1 Internet provider account.
Thank you Dr Grossman.
Yours Sincerely,
Leah
-
On a separate note - I find it interesting that whenever Leah is confronted strange (meaning unfamiliar) people show up out of no where to defend her.)
Is the sock-puppet back? I'm flagging Yamen's post.
Lise
Dear Leah,
Those are my thoughts and that is my voice based on real evidence in the past of strange posters poping up whenever you and I have had a conflict. Who cares if I think it is you, Leah, am I not allowed to think, feel or express? I'm not trying to gaslight or ruin your reputation or image. I am just expressing my intuitive voice.
It sounds to me like you still may be angry about our interaction back in Dec 2007. Well, I understand -- you can be angry at me...express to me how you felt, I may not want to hear it but out of respect for you, I will listen.
However, to defend myself, there was no gaslighting or baiting behavior on my part.
Lise
-
To be clear - I'm not saying that you shouldn't address this person, Lise... only stating my view of it, since you mentioned how others on the board feel about such strange (as you qualified the word) posts. come to think of it, I haven't stated my feelings yet, have I?
Really good point you made here - I WAS speaking for the board - I missed that one.
Dear Lise,
This is just a very small thing, yet I want you to know...
in that part up above, I was not trying to let you know that I felt you were speaking for the board. Not at all.
I took what you said as an invitation to consider, for myself, how I feel about posts such as that by "Yamen".
As I responded with my "feelings", I realized that I wasn't giving my feelings at all, but rather my thoughts... and I thought, Wow - how do I really feel about it?
Anyhow, all that to say - thanks again, for the opportunity to look more closely into these dynamics. And I don't feel or think you're doing the tiniest smidgen of gaslighting or baiting, not in any way.
Love,
Carolyn
-
Dear Lise,
You exercise your right to speak exactly as you wish to, as you have always done, with freedom.
However, please cease in Mind Reading and Fortune Telling
regarding my feelings, and thoughts,
once again, I am not angry, and I remain not angry.
However,
you posted that you were angry, therefore, you own the angry feeling and emotion.
You have posted as you have, and I have merely posting in response, with assertiveness, for my own well being, here on this board,
and also, in real life.
The board is about interaction.
I have also contacted Dr Grossman by email, as you have been most abusive to me, in your posting, with false accusations, and assumptions, TODAY.
Then, a person named "Yamen" posted, presumably, because of what the personage "Yamen" could see for themself.
Question:
Have you ever stopped to think, consider, that the 30 plus number of Guests are watching what you are typing up onto the board?
Have you ever stopped to think, consider, that one or more of those Guests is able to see clearly what is so obvious?
And have a desire to post accordingly, for themself?
I have.
Leah
-
Anyhow, all that to say - thanks again, for the opportunity to look more closely into these dynamics. And I don't feel or think you're doing the tiniest smidgen of gaslighting or baiting, not in any way.
Love,
Carolyn
[/b]
Dear Carolyn,
With all due respect, you PM'd me, last year, in the midst, remember?
In Christ, in truth,
Leah
-
To be clear - I'm not saying that you shouldn't address this person, Lise... only stating my view of it, since you mentioned how others on the board feel about such strange (as you qualified the word) posts. come to think of it, I haven't stated my feelings yet, have I?
Really good point you made here - I WAS speaking for the board - I missed that one.
Dear Lise,
This is just a very small thing, yet I want you to know...
in that part up above, I was not trying to let you know that I felt you were speaking for the board. Not at all.
I took what you said as an invitation to consider, for myself, how I feel about posts such as that by "Yemen".
As I responded with my "feelings", I realized that I wasn't giving my feelings at all, but rather my thoughts... and I thought, Wow - how do I really feel about it?
Anyhow, all that to say - thanks again, for the opportunity to look more closely into these dynamics. And I don't feel or think you're doing the tiniest smidgen of gaslighting or baiting, not in any way.
Love,
Carolyn
Thank you Carolyn for your clarity. I wish I could write more but I have another deadline at my job to meet in a few hours. I'll be back and then I will have more time to consider what you have written here.
I appreciate your honesty and forthrightness.
I appreciate your insights -- you are helping me, you are steering, or challenging me to stay on the path, to think deeper and grow...I like that :D
Love,
Lise
-
Anyhow, all that to say - thanks again, for the opportunity to look more closely into these dynamics. And I don't feel or think you're doing the tiniest smidgen of gaslighting or baiting, not in any way.
Love,
Carolyn
[/b]
Dear Carolyn,
With all due respect, you PM'd me, last year, in the midst, remember?
In Christ, in truth,
Leah
Leah,
I do not recall every pm'ing you to tell you that I thought Gabben was baiting or gaslighting you.
I do recall pm'ing you to say that I felt you were under seige by the enemy of our souls, Satan, who is a master of all manner of deception, including gaslighting and baiting.
If I did indeed pm you last year to say that Gabben was guilty of these things, then I was wrong,
and I must apologize to both you and to Lise... because even if I thought that, at the time, I should not have said so to you.
On that note, I will repeat that my pm's are turned off, and have been so, all members blocked, for some time, and for one very important reason - as I have stated before - I do not trust myself and my own level of maturity to maintain a right heart, mind, attitude, and speech at all levels... yet.
In truth, Leah, and in Christ, and as I told you the last time I replied to one of your posts to me, I do not feel very good after interacting with you. I will continue to search my own heart about my feelings, and in the meanwhile, that's all I have to say about it.
Carolyn
-
Leah,
I'm glad that you felt free enough to get that out and say all of that -- your voice is valued.
However, I do disagree with what you have written and I feel very hurt by what you have written because it is untrue.
It seems to me that what you may wish for is for me to be hated here by the VESMD community and to have the board gang up on me and make me leave. Is that correct? That is not nice -- I do not want you to leave nor do I wish you to be hated by others.
My overall behavior here on the board has not been wrong. Have I made mistakes, yep...but that does not mean that I am abusive or hurtful.
with love,
Lise
-
In truth, Leah, and in Christ, and as I told you the last time I replied to one of your posts to me, I do not feel very good after interacting with you. I will continue to search my own heart about my feelings, and in the meanwhile, that's all I have to say about it.
Carolyn
That is not true, and you know it, Carolyn
However, it has answered something that has been a concern.
As to you why, suddenly, you have been cold to me, after YOUR email telling me that if I were to post anything again that was incorrect on the board, then you would let me know by PM and not straight onto the board.
To which I replied, that I did not mind either way, that you could point out something Spiritually Incorrect on my part,
either out onto the Board, or by PM, as my only true concern was that I did not lead anyone astray.
In light of what you say, now, I am happy to post the PM from you, and to you, which was the last PM's either way between us, onto the board, for the sake of honesty.
I have prayed about this, as your cutting me off, puzzled me, as I did not understand why.
The Lord always brings things out into truth.
And you never ever said that to me, you may have thought it, in your defensiveness, though why that should be, was a puzzle, which I truly understand, as you shared on your thread entitled "Buzz Off!" -- though I did not know, at the time, that it was a personal thread, so I posted onto it about my parents, as for me, it was validation and enlightenment, about my parents.
So I offered it up to the Lord, that I know, in the Bible.
Remember, I never Pm'd you, it was you who iniated PMing with me, with scripture.
Your recent coldness toward me was confusing, but, I chose to understand you, with compassion.
In Christ, in truth,
Leah
PS > What confused me was, that you posting that you always felt like a whole person around me, and valued my postings, and scriptures etc.
-
In truth, Leah, and in Christ, and as I told you the last time I replied to one of your posts to me, I do not feel very good after interacting with you. I will continue to search my own heart about my feelings, and in the meanwhile, that's all I have to say about it.
Carolyn
That is not true, and you know it, Carolyn
However, it has answered something that has been a concern.
As to you why, suddenly, you have been cold to me, after YOUR email telling me that if I were to post anything again that was incorrect on the board, then you would let me know by PM and not straight onto the board.
To which I replied, that I did not mind either way, that you could point out something Spiritually Incorrect on my part,
either out onto the Board, or by PM, as my only true concern was that I did not lead anyone astray.
In light of what you say, now, I am happy to post the PM from you, and to you, which was the last PM's either way between us, onto the board, for the sake of honesty.
I have prayed about this, as your cutting me off, puzzled me, as I did not understand why.
The Lord always brings things out into truth.
And you never ever said that to me, you may have thought it, in your defensiveness, though why that should be, was a puzzle, which I truly understand, as you shared on your thread entitled "defencelessness" -- though I did not know it was a personal thread, so I posted onto it about my parents, as for me, it was validation and enlightenment, about my parents.
So I offered it up to the Lord, that I know, in the Bible.
Remember, I never Pm'd you, it was you who iniated PMing with me, with scripture.
Your recent coldness toward me was confusing, but, I chose to understand you, with compassion.
In Christ, in truth,
Leah
Leah,
Now I hear you calling me a liar.
The last post which you directed to me was on your thread re: Hypercompetitiveness, here:
http://www.voicelessness.com/disc3//index.php?topic=6914.0 (http://www.voicelessness.com/disc3//index.php?topic=6914.0)
And here was my reply:
Leah,
You may be correct... perhaps I'm not understanding.
Perhaps I do understand, but simply disagree with you.
I guess that's irrelevant.
You are not alone in feeling alien or in sensing that poularity often comes at the cost of never standing up for ones self.
I don't even care so much anymore about standing up for myself... but I surely don't want to be blown over by someone else's windstorm.
Mostly, I don't like the way I feel after reading your last post here, so I will work that out within myself and leave it at that.
Carolyn
Yes, I told you that I did not feel very good after reading your post. And now I am feeling that same way again. I am not blaming that on you, I am simply acknowledging my feelings and my need to deal with them.
I have never emailed you.
I have pm'd you.
You have pm'd me.
My turning off all pm's had nothing to do with "cutting you off" or suddenly treating you coldly. That was a personal decision which I made last December, based on a number of different factors.
I don't know why you presumed that it was a personal affront, but you could have asked.
As to the rest of your post here, I don't even know what it is that you're alleging I never, ever said to you.
Carolyn
-
Dear Carolyn,
With all due respect, you PM'd me, last year, in the midst, remember?
In Christ, in truth,
Leah
Dear Carolyn,
With respect, this was about PM's only.
Leah
-
Dear Carolyn,
With all due respect, you PM'd me, last year, in the midst, remember?
In Christ, in truth,
Leah
Dear Carolyn,
With respect, this was about PM's only.
Leah
Leah,
In that event, I have already responded to you about pm's, as previously posted:
Leah,
I do not recall every pm'ing you to tell you that I thought Gabben was baiting or gaslighting you.
I do recall pm'ing you to say that I felt you were under seige by the enemy of our souls, Satan, who is a master of all manner of deception, including gaslighting and baiting.
If I did indeed pm you last year to say that Gabben was guilty of these things, then I was wrong,
and I must apologize to both you and to Lise... because even if I thought that, at the time, I should not have said so to you.
On that note, I will repeat that my pm's are turned off, and have been so, all members blocked, for some time, and for one very important reason - as I have stated before - I do not trust myself and my own level of maturity to maintain a right heart, mind, attitude, and speech at all levels... yet.
In truth, Leah, and in Christ, and as I told you the last time I replied to one of your posts to me, I do not feel very good after interacting with you. I will continue to search my own heart about my feelings, and in the meanwhile, that's all I have to say about it.
Carolyn
-
Dear Carolyn,
The last PM, that you sent to me, regarding my spiritually incorrect book posting, was January 19 2008
not last December.
Leah
-
Would you please be so kind as to Confirm that I have nothing whatsover to do with the personage of "Yamen"
Yamen is Shy, Watcher, Observer, and a host of other names--not Leah. I have deleted Yamen's message (see Yamen's post for the reason).
Best,
Richard
-
Dear Carolyn,
The last PM, that you sent to me, regarding my spiritually incorrect book posting, was January 19 2008
not last December.
Leah
Leah,
With all due respect, so what?
Perhaps I turned pm's back on in order to not publicly point out an error? I have, on occasion, removed the block. All that's required is to remove the asterisk from the field - takes but a second.
Clearly, I do not recall the date of the last pm you and I exchanged. I don't see what that has to do with your assertion that I labeled Gabben a gaslighter and baiter in a pm to you last December. In fact, I'd say it has absolutely no relevancy at all.
Carolyn
-
Post deleted.
Yamen, Shy, Watcher, Observer—and various other names. I have asked you to post under one name. You are one person with one view of the world. I, and many others, would appreciate hearing that view. Your pretending to be many people all of whom share the same view, however, is not allowed on this board. E-mail me.
Richard
Whoever you are, Shy, I do hope you'll take Dr. Grossman up on his offer to email him and register with one account. Truly, your voice is important and I, for another, would like to hear more from you.
Also, I wonder about your last choice of names... were you wondering why I said "Amen" to one of Gabben's posts on this thread?
Please join us.
Carolyn
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Would you please be so kind as to Confirm that I have nothing whatsover to do with the personage of "Yamen"
Yamen is Shy, Watcher, Observer, and a host of other names--not Leah. I have deleted Yamen's message (see Yamen's post for the reason).
Best,
Richard
Dear Dr Grossman,
Grateful thanks.
"Shalom"
Sincerely,
Leah
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Thank you Dr. Grossman.
My apologies Leah -- I was wrong.
I am sorry that my suspicion regarding the unknown poster was wrong and that it caused you pain. I never want to hurt you again.
Lise
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Once again, not to totally lose track of the original intent of this thread,
Back to the book...
We first addressed the deep human need to bond, and how that may have been disrupted.
I know that was definitely the case for me, as was this second issue.
The second of the four ways in which our development may have been affected is -
2. Our boundaries were not respected.
Boundaries are our spiritual and emotional property lines.
They tell us whre we end, and where others begin.
They help to keep good things in us, and bad things out.
We take responsibility for what is ours, and not for what isn't.
When we are clearly defined, we can carry our own loads, and we know when it's appropriate to help others with their burdens. (Galatians 6:1-5)
Yet our ability say NO can also be sinned against.
We can be hurt in our ability to set limits, establish consequences, and not rescue others.
Here are some ways our boundaries can be injured:
Aggressive control: someone hurting us if we say no.
Passive control: someone leaving us if we say no.
Regressive control: guilt messages if we say no. (I'd never heard this term, but have felt always that the guilt goes hand in hand with abandonment.
Limitlessness: someone never saying no to us.
These dynamics are common in most relationships, and are extremely destructive to our ability to conduct our lives responsibly.
But how do boundary injuries hurt our safety?
Basically, if an unbonded person can't take love in, a boundary-less person can't keep love in.
Like a cup with no bottom, the grace and care the boundaryless person receives often cannot stay inside to nourish and sustain her.
Some of the tendancies of boundary-less people are:
... feeling abandoned when there is distance. Inability to stand apart, to be alone, to hold firm in conflict.
(So when they're in an argument with a rageaholic who's screaming like a banshee, boundaryless people are cast into a panic state that they must get out of by complying with the wishes of the screamer!)
... using isolation as their only limit. (this was all I knew!)
(Often people with weak boundaries will give in repeatedly to some irresponsible or demanding person. Then, out of the blue, they'll pack up and leave the relationship with no warning.
This is because they were unable to set and keep limits at early stages when there were problems. They didn't have the resources to, at the right times, "speak the truth in love".) (Ephesians 4:15) [ exactly!]
This also destroys our safety. If your boundaries have been injured, you may find that when you are in conflict with someone, you shut down without even being aware of it.
This isolates us from love, and keeps us from taking in safe people.
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Thank you Dr. Grossman.
My apologies Leah -- I was wrong.
I am sorry that my suspicion regarding the unknown poster was wrong and that it caused you pain. I never want to hurt you again.
Lise
Dear Lise,
Your apology is sincerely accepted, and I am crying, tears of joy, for answered prayer, that I have waited for, for so long, which is a teaching in itself, as in, to be still and wait upon the Lord. Which I know you will understand.
Please, let's put everything behind us, and move onwards, afresh, as we both love God, and are His.
It's the only way I know, that is peaceful.
All I ask, is that if in future, I unknowingly post something that is a trigger (after learning today what a trigger is, and does) just please let me know that it is a trigger, and don't think that I have done it on purpose, as I would never do that, in all honesty, with sincerity.
I do make mistakes, as I am imperfect, always have been, and always will be.
Love, Leah
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Those of us whose boundaries were not respected, thereby negatively affecting our development, may exhibit the following symptoms:
blaming others, codependency, depression, difficulties with being alone, disorganization and lack of direction, extreme dependency, feelings of being let down,
feelings of obligation, generalized anxiety, identity confusion, impulsiveness, inability to say no, isolation, masochism, overresponsibility and guilt, panic,
passive-aggressive behavior, procrastination and inability to follow through, resentment, substance abuse and eating disorders, thought problems and obsessive compulsive
problems, underresponsibility, and victim mentality.
Whew.
I wasn't going to include that list, till I read through it again and saw that there's not a single thing on there which hasn't been a personal issue at one time or another throughout my own life.
And I wondered - how is it that those closest to me didn't say, whoa - let's see what we can do to work through this, it's killing you!
Well, how could they? They're the ones who failed to instill the proper boundaries in the first place.
And somehow there's peace in that. They weren't malignant, in the beginning... my parents, I mean.
They just expected me to be able to fake my way through life as they had.
What a wake-up this has been.
Carolyn
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We did it!!!!!!!!!!
I'll write more to you later Leah. I'm slacking here at my job and must work.
Your last post was pleasure to read.
Peace and hugs,
Lise
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Carolyn,
I'm going to take the time to read all of this that you wrote and posted regarding the original thread topic. I'll reflect and get back to you later.
Thank you for this subject.
Lise
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Leah and Lise,
I'm glad you two were able to come to healthy terms and I can rejoice with you in that!
Leah, I would like to be on healthy terms with you, too, and yet I'm not sure that's possible in light of my current feelings.
I don't know whether it was proper/safe for you to imply on the board here that I had somehow slandered Gabben in a pm to you.
At least I feel that's what you did... that you implied something very negative about me, not to mention calling me a liar and then backpeddling about it, ignoring my setting straight of the facts.
On the other hand, I do know that I was quite uncertain myself about Gabben/Lise some months ago and therefore chose not to interact with her on the board. I wish that I could say without a shadow of the doubt that I did not speak of my uncertainty, but I can't.
Nonetheless, I don't feel good about what I see as your insinuations, Leah. There's something to it, I feel, almost as though you're trying to undercut me... I don't know. Just quite uncomfortable and unsettled.
You presumed alot about me here, just as you accused Lise of doing re: mind reading, fortune telling, etc, etc., but you have not acknowledged my statements in correction of those presumptions.
For the reasons above, I must continue to consider you an unsafe person where I am concerned, at least... because that is the prudent thing to do, I believe.
Lise,
I'm sorry that I was not in a place to appreciate your ways, your style and approach, until now. Please accept my sincere apologies for misunderstanding you and especially for possibly sharing my misunderstanding with another. I never want to be responsible for colouring anyone's view of another human being and I'm committing to guarding my tongue in that regard.
As the fear which previously consumed me is dissipated, it's replaced by love... and I long for the day when that love stretches to encompass a wider field. For now, I absolutely must guard my heart.
Carolyn
P.S. Just saw your last post, Lise... thank you. This is still an important topic and although I value all the rest which has taken place here, I surely don't want to lose sight of it.
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Leah, I would like to be on healthy terms with you, too, and yet I'm not sure that's possible in light of my current feelings.
Dear Carolyn,
I respect that those are your feelings, and as such, your ownership.
Please know that at this time, I cannot feel "safe" as you call it, with you, as I have felt "unsafe" with you for some time, as you have blown, hot and cold, with me.
I only have to go back, and look at postings, and your PM's -- which help me see the full color picture, of truth.
Whereas, Lise, is very much, open, what you see is what you get, of which, now, in the light, I can feel safe with.
With serenity, there is nothing that I can do, or could do, to change the way in which you feel, and own those feelings, toward me, and my postings, which have been my life work, and my life journey, only.
Hypercompetitiveness thread, was not personal to you, Carolyn.
And again, I am grateful, for your thread "Buzz Off!"
which truly helped me, regarding my parents.
In my prayers, as always,
Love in Christ,
Leah
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Thank you for respecting that these are my feelings, Leah, and that I must own them.
I respect that your feelings are your own, as well, including where it concerns this alleged blowing hot and cold with you which you feel I've done.
The full color picture of truth in my pm's and postings alike is that I am a human being, not a clone of someone's idealized image or a member of anyone's foo upon whom to revisit old issues. In other words, I am just me... not thoroughly known to myself, as yet, but certainly on the road to deeper understanding.
I don't have a life's work, Leah. I only have my daily learning and activities which build on the one foundation I was given in my rebirth.
I did not think or feel that your hypercompetitiveness thread was personal to me, Leah.
I disagreed with your views as you expressed them there.
That is all.
On the contrary, I feel that you are very competitive... and that is not necessarily a bad thing, unless it's denied.
I didn't dare tell you that at the time, but now I do. Yes, I think and feel that you are quite competitive and I am not interested in any such competition.
My feelings and opinions and views are in a state of flux, as I continue to grow. Thank you for saying truthfully, now, that you have not felt safe with me for some time, Leah. I did not know that. I just figured you didn't care one way or the other how I felt, when you didn't respond to my post on your hypercompetitive thread, when I told you that I didn't feel good about your words to me.
So I see some misunderstandings, and some denials, some twistings, and lots of presumptions, still...
and yet I wish you love, as well, in Christ.
Carolyn
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Dear Carolyn,
Something crossed my mind as I was sitting here at my desk, which was that you have done some wonderful growing, reaching and soul searching in the last couple of months -- it shows.
It has been a warm pleasure to read your posts and to get to know you better. My heart tells me that you are honest, sincere, down to earth, warm, kind and compassionate for you know suffering. Sorry, if I make you blush.
But what really shines through is that you are courageous.
It takes tremendous courage to admit some of the things that you admitted here on the board. But I know that the reason that you have courage is because you have genuine faith...it ultimately comes down to us and God, no one else?
God protects His faithful.
You know as well as I do the following scripture:
MATTHEW 7:21; "Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
Or another way to put it is: Faith without works is dead.
With love,
Lise
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Dear Carolyn,
I am not defensive.
I only know that for a long time, I was openly declared on the board, by yourself, as your dear sister, then I wasn't.
But, was puzzled, as to why I was no longer your dear sister, until I realized, that I spoke up for myself, in light of scripture.
That is okay, and the Lord will do his work, with you, and also, continually, with me also.
I am not competitive, however, I am not a baby Christian either, and sorry, but, I have read my Bible, too, just like you have.
That's where your thoughts of competitveness crept in, I believe.
But, not for me, you told me that you could not help yourself, and, I believed you, and that's okay with me.
I think in light of our Christian walk, we ought to leave this for now, hopefully, wisdom and grace, will breathe life and light.
Love in Christ,
Love from Leah x
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Leah,
I have no idea what you're talking about.
You spoke up for yourself about what?
What is it that you think you spoke up about, in light of Scripture, which supposedly brought about this change in me?
I do not recall any such incident.
And what does this mean?: But, not for me, you told me that you could not help yourself, and, I believed you, and that's okay with me.
I told you that I could not help myself? When? About what?
Leah, seriously, how can you put out these vague references, as though there were actual events and words spoken with these meanings which you've attached to them, and then say that this should be left now.
I do not want to try to get the last word here, and yet I do want you to know that I have not the slightest clue what you're talking about. You seem to be assigning all sorts of motivations to me based on some things/events of which I'm not even aware!
Maybe that is my crime in your eyes. Is that it? I am not aware enough of you and I should be able to interpret the slightest nuances of everything going through your thoughts and feelings? How could I possibly manage that? It's impossible.
And yet I come right out and say that I don't like the way I feel after you post to me... and you have nothing at all to say.
But I'm the cold one?
This doesn't make sense, Leah. I will let it go, but not without saying that much - I absolutely disagree with your spin on this.
Carolyn
Lise,
Words cannot express... thank you. Made me cry.
With Love,
Carolyn
P.S. on edit
Leah, I also did not say that you were defensive, and yet you begin your post here with the words:
Dear Carolyn,
I am not defensive.
... as though you were responding to something I never said. Honestly, I feel that you are having conversations with yourself in your mind and it doesn't matter what I say or don't say.
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Dear Carolyn,
I have let it go.
Love, leah
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Leah,
One possibility which you may or may not wish to consider is this:
You may think that you've let it go, but truly you have only put it on hold, where it can brew and simmer... not within me, but within yourself.
You will also hear from me again if you try to put words into my mouth which I never said, and thoughts into my mind which are not my own.
Working out my own salvation here,
with love,
Carolyn
P.S. on edit - Just realized something. If the issue here is that you really don't feel safe with me, Leah, then I can allow for the possibility that that may be why you're unable/unwilling to answer all of the many questions I've put to you. In that event, the benefit of the doubt should be given, I suppose, and I should be more concerned about your feelings than my own intention. And so... indeed, I have let this go.
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And now, the third way in which sins against us may have affected our development:
3) We were not seen as whole people, with both good and bad traits.
(I would add here that, consequently, we were not taught to or allowed to see ourselves and others as whole people either, hence the origins of so much of the black and white thinking
we may see both in ourselves, at times, and in others who have experienced neglect/abuse.)
Our third developmental need is the ability to resolve the split between goodness and badness.
After we answer the questions "Who loves me?" (bonding) and "Who am I?" (boundaries), we need to know, am I good or bad?
From a Christian perspective, we have this question answered by the fact of a perfect God dying for a sinful people, whereby - incredibly - this sinful people doesn't have to be good in order to be loved.
We can be bad and still be loved, just as the prodigal son was. (Luke 15:11-32)
But many of us have learned that we are not loved when we are bad.
Injuries in this area occur in four ways:
Perfectionism - others expecting us to have no faults.
Idealization - others denying our imperfections.
Shaming - others condemning us for our negative qualities.
Splitting - others seeing us as all-good or all-bad.
These relational patterns in significant relationships can create a dedicated perfectionist,
fully committed to the concept that she can and must eradicate any negative traits - and now!
Perfectionists stay caught in Romans 7, never able to internalize the truth of the next chapter -
"There is now, therefore, no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus." (Romans 8:1)
They don't have enough grace inside to experience forgiveness.
(This was me. Sometimes, still is... but knowing that I cannot give to others what I refuse to receive for myself,
I am willing and trusting in God to fulfill in me that which He has begun.)
Good - bad problems are major destroyers.
People who can't reconcile either their own or anyone else's faults suffer tremendous isolation
because they are unable to attach to the real, whole people who are both good and bad.
The ideals of what "should" be get in the way.
Perfectionists demand that their friends be perfect. Initially, when they click with someone, they will experience a wonderful honeymoon period,
full of discoveries about "all the things we have in common" and how "compatible" they are.
Then a conflict will arise.
They will start to see the other person's faults: they're always late, they don't listen well, they are too controlling.
Suddenly the perfectionists are confused and disappointed.
Someone they'd believed in, hoped for, expected more from - has seriously let them down.
And they tend to leave and reenter the fruitless, futile search for the ideal.
Since safe people are not perfect people, they are disqualified, and the perfectionist goes on alone.
More soon....
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A bit more about this good-bad, splitting, black & white, all-or-nothing mindset...
In some cases, perfectionists may forgive other peoples' sins (against them), but be unable to receive forgiveness themselves.
Many perfectionists will sabotage potentially good relationships for one reason: being found out.
They are afraid to get too close to someone, because their bad self might start leaking out, and the shame and self-condemnation they feel is unbearably painful.
Generally, perfectionists opt for isolation rather than to be exposed in their failings.
It is sadly ironic that perfectionists shun the very safety which could heal them.
The well known "commitment phobic" man is often in this category.
He's the type who starts a relationship, gets close, and then disappears.
As his defenses start slipping, the person's need for being understood, known, forgiven, and comforted begins to show.
And he can't tolerate the risk that his "bad self" would be too bad, too noxious.
So he takes the route he's taken for years... he runs away.
If you have this good/bad split, you may suffer from depression,
"all good or all bad" thinking about yourself and others, anxiety or panic,
broken relationships, eating disorders and substance abuse problems, guilt, idealism, inability to tolerate weakness,
narcissism,
perfectionism, rage and anger problems, self-image problems, and sexual addictions.
So far, I'm batting 1,000 re: bonding, boundaries, and now this good/bad split... and yet any desire to blame others is utterly gone. In looking more closely at these things, I was afraid that my own anger and bitterness would be magnified, but it's not.
Thank God! He really does make all things new again.
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Hi Carlolyn,
This thread has proven to be insightful for me. I can identfy with traits of the perfectionist and I am known for isolation.
The deep wound of abandonment is at the heart, at least for me.
This stuff here is so good I need some time to reflect more -- I think that I am going to buy the book.
Thanks,
Lise
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Oh, that would be neat, Lise! I just think it's an awesome resource, but maybe it's more about this being the right time for me to finally grasp this stuff. I can feel my entire perspective shifting as I read these simple truths... and so much old rubbish being washed away.
Thanks for your post!
Carolyn
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Okay, while I have the time and opportunity, just to finish up the section I started...
The fourth and final way in this short list that sins against us may have affected our development is:
We were not allowed to mature into adults.
Our last developmental need deals with the task of taking on an adult role in life. It is moving from the child's one-down position
to the equal and mutual position of being a grown-up.
All of us start off life as an untrained, immature infant. We have unformed values, gifts and talents, emotions, and potentials.
The primary job of parenting is to help us mature this confusing mass of thoughts and feelings into an adult who is able to function independently. Being an adult means taking our own roles in life.
How can we be sinned against in our need to become adults? Here are some ways:
One-up relationships: Others who treat us as if we were children.
One-down relationships: Others who treat us as if we were parents.
Control: Others who need to be in charge of our lives.
Criticism: Others who attack when we challenge their thinking.
When our emerging adult-ness is disrupted, we encounter breakdowns in functioning.
For example, some people become compliant,
obsessive, rule-bound individuals.
Some react and become domineering, controlling, parental-types themselves.
And some become rebellious, resisting authority figures long beyond their teenage years.
None of these positions solve the problem
of becoming a grown-up. They are compromises in character development.
How does the adult-injured individual suffer from safety problems?
In major ways, but the common denominator is this: They are unable to relate to safe people because safe people encourage adultness.
Safe people tend to bring out the best in us, because love "believes all things" (1 Corinthians 13:7) And that's risky.
Because we might just start acting like the adult our friends see inside us.
In other words, the adult-injured person is terrified of moving out of the child role, mainly because they were repressed by authority figures and fear criticism.
Even though they resent authority, they are afraid of challenging it. And safe relationships create the possibility of a frightening power shift and subsequent conflict.
The list of symptoms attached to disruptions within this area of development is pretty much the same as with the others... but at least one addition to the list caught my eye - - -
a "you can't do that!" attitude. Very familiar.
Part 2 of the book looks into the question "Do I Attract Unsafe People?"
If anything jumps out at me from reading there, I'll share it. Hope this has helped... I've enjoyed the interactive approach and really appreciate everyone's time and input.
Thanks!!
Carolyn
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Shaming - others condemning us for our negative qualities.
I wanted to highlight this point, as I have been accused of `shaming' and I do not believe that the accusation is correct. In fact I do believe that I go to great lengths to communicate the sense of acceptance and understanding that I feel for others, and it is a river that runs deep with me. So it is a point of frustration for me if I am accused of shaming someone.
If someone's `negative qualities' include behavior towards me that is abusive or aggressive in any way, I will call them on it. I will not like the behavior, I may even condemn the behavior.
But it would take a lot of consistant abuse before I would call that person an abuser. An abuser, in my mind, is someone who feels a sense of entitlement to their aggression, and cannot be reasoned with over time. Someone who abuses me once or twice does not fit into that category, but I will not like the behavior and will say so.
Condemning behavior is not condemning a person.
I hope this helps to clear up a conflict that has emerged lately on this thread.
X bella
Dear Bella,
I believe that you're right - condemning behavior is not condemning the person.
I also believe that telling another person how you feel about your own personal interpretation of their behavior is not the same as making an accusation.
After reading back through this thread, I'm not seeing that you were accused of anything, Bella... or even that you were involved in any dispute or controversy here. I may be wrong... and, of course, the main concern is how you are feeling about it now, not what anyone's intentions were... so please feel free to continue talking about it here as you desire!
It's very difficult and painful to feel misunderstood and unheard, I know. In no way do I want to contribute to that.
On another thread, I made a remark about back-patting which I think offended you, and for that, I want to apologize.
One other thing which comes to mind .... I've learned here that sometimes a person is sensed to be guilty of something purely by association. This has happened to me, too...
and it's not fair or right, and yet... I can understand it.
Having my own stuff to sort through, I just want you to know that I'm not standing hyper-objectively and patronizingly outside the mess to tell you, "oh, pshaw, it's nothing." I just really don't know how else to try to help than to listen, to present what I see, and to say... yes, any time you feel that someone is being abusive or aggressive toward you, you should call that person on it!
Whether or not perfect agreement is reached, at least everyone involved should be honest about their feelings, I think.
Love,
Carolyn
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--then this was from Hope, Hi there
Even though they resent authority, they are afraid of challenging it. And safe relationships create the possibility of a frightening power shift and subsequent conflict.
I see this as my family as a Group, as with all of us being senior citizens, there is still no difference in the relationships from as far back as I can remember.
==========
I now value my solitude and no longer am interested in any deep conversations about the last 69 years. I know all my good points and my bad points
I am learning assertiveness enjoy my work and play time, and I doiubt I could make a friend who would ever understand me, so I have acquaintances who know nothing about the Dizzy-Izzy years.
xx
Izzy
Hi, Iz,
I think that's the case for my family of origin, too... which is tiny, really... still my parents and one brother... still acting out just as always, with me - out of the loop.
In relationship with genuinely safe people, accountability is the order of the day. Unpleasant as that can be, those of us who long for maturity recognize how indispensable it is, I think! Accountability, personal responsibility, the breaking out of old molds... scary stuff for someone who doesn't know that she/he has a foundation of her own on which to stand.
(((((((Iz))))))) I always enjoy hearing you define and re-define yourself and your situation through these threads. You're all there, lady.
Love,
Carolyn
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Dear Carolyn,
I understand your allegences and thoughts on this issue, and have read all your posts; I agree with some of your thoughts, but strongly disagree with the idea that we should `be more understanding' when abuse and aggression are directed at us when it is due to someone's triggers. I also strongly disagree that mis-directed aggression, unfounded accusations, and character slurs are not abuse. They are abuse, in the objective sense.
If this has not been your message, then I apologize, but this seems to be along the lines of what you keep saying and it is most invalidating. From my perspective, you are feeding into that person's sense of entitlement to abuse me, and it is hurting me, as well as my future relationship with that person. I think perhaps the situation may have resolved itself and a better understanding reached if others had not have become involved and protected or justified the abuse.
The biggest hurdle in our friendship right now is the sense of entitlement that person feels to accuse me of thinking this or that, or being this or that, whenever I offer a slightly different spin on a topic for discussion. This `demonising' feeds her aggression. Its exactly the same dynamic that occurs in narcissistic abuse, where the abuser `demonises' the victim, so that in their minds the aggression is justified.
I wanted to put a stop to that, but because of others becoming involved i see this happening all over again, because I am not going to stop using my voice here, such as in this case where I offered a slightly different spin on the term enabling. If others think I deserve abuse and aggression for possessing a slightly different view on things sometimes, it makes this a lesser place in my eyes. But i will not shut myself down on recovery from voicelessness forum, and nor should anyone have to do that.
((((((Bella))))))) I am so sorry that you've been hurt. I'm especially sorry to know that I have contributed to your pain.
I don't think you've correctly interpreted my meaning in the summary you've given... but this is getting too confusing for me to sift, at this point.
I feel like the terms keep changing... and so I will focus on the bottom line: you feel invalidated by me.
I'm sorry, Bella. I don't know what I can do to change that or ease it for you. I have spoken up as clearly and directly as I know how, and yet I am not able to give you the response you desire. I don't want to bring any additional examples of behavior into the mix because that will only enflame things, nor do I want to cite past events - for the same reason.
There's one thing I would like to say about my "becoming involved" in this. My first post into this issue came about because of a reference on the Shame and Anger thread which cited my "last post on the Safe People thread". Because of that, and only because of that, did I begin to follow along with events. From that point, I did post to Hermes, in an attempt to defuse what I believed was a misunderstanding in progress because of the clashing of 2 extremely different personalities - and not one of those personalities was yours, Bella.
The rest of this is a bit of a mystery to me, but clearly you hold me responsible for interfering.. and so again, I am sorry.
I hope that you'll forgive me and I look forward to your continuing to use your voice here.
With love,
Carolyn
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Dear Carolyn,
I understand your allegences
Dear Bella,
For the first time, I just read through that old thread on God/religion, a thread on which I never had any intention of participating... or even of reading.
It just so happened that as I was reading through teartracks' pasts posts recently, I saw her comments on the God/religion thread and replied... because I thought she'd made such a lovely, inspiring tribute to what I believe, as well. Other than that, I'd formed no attachment to anyone's view on that thread topic (or any other!) and was unaware of all the flap therein.
What I'm trying to say, Bella, is that I have no blind allegiances, to the best of my conscious awareness... only an allegiance to God and to the truth. That's not nearly as high and mighty as it may sound, either. What I mean is - I am entirely aware of my capacity for self-deception (and other-deception!) and so I don't hop onto anyone's bandwagon, but rather attempt to address specific issues as I am able to perceive them.
If I'd known of your experience on that God/religion thread, I might have better understood what was happening recently.. but I didn't.
Once I did, I returned here to read your post to me and the word "allegiance" jumped out, as did what you said about the "sense of entitlement" to accuse you. I have one suggestion to offer about that... and at the risk of angering you, I'm going to offer it, because it's something I've experienced personally and not recognized at the time. Bella, sometimes what appears as a sense of entitlement to accuse or offend is actually a sense of safety in others about and toward you. I know that can be a really negative thing and, of course, you and I both need to hold to our boundaries, lest someone think they can trample all over us, and yet... please just consider that if I did not consider you a safe person, I would not even be able or willing to address this much to you.
I hope that makes some sense. If not, I'm sorry... just thought it was worth trying to put out there.
Love,
Carolyn
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I'm sorry that I was not in a place to appreciate your ways, your style and approach, until now. Please accept my sincere apologies for misunderstanding you and especially for possibly sharing my misunderstanding with another. I never want to be responsible for colouring anyone's view of another human being and I'm committing to guarding my tongue in that regard.
As the fear which previously consumed me is dissipated, it's replaced by love... and I long for the day when that love stretches to encompass a wider field. For now, I absolutely must guard my heart.
Carolyn
Hi Carolyn,
Just wanted to thank you for this. It is a beautiful expression of your consideration and warmth.
Lise
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Condemning behavior is not condemning a person.
gabs I'm not passively referring to you; I mean to address our situation directly.
Hi Bella,
It is clear that you think my behavior has been abusive? I have to strongly disagree. But just because I diagree does not mean that I am opposed or against your need to express this.
Also, if you were to really look, I mean really look at my posts, you would see that I have NEVER condemed you, I have only spoken of the behavior and how it has effected me.
Also, I am assertive and no nonsense, in other words I do not take crap. People often get that confused with abuse. But just like you said, the world is not so black and white.
Here is a thought. When we do something wrong, such has harm another or make a mistake, do not we naturally feel ashamed? We need not beat ourselves up because that is a waste of time and is unconstructive. But the shame perhaps can tell us that we have limits and others have limits and if you do not want to experience the uncomfortablness of hearing others express their limits and feelings in realtion to our behavior then it would be wise to make corrections.
It seems to me Bella is that you and Hermes keep thinking that I was triggered by you, I was NOT triggered by you and I was not upset with you. I hope that helps, it was never about you.
But dear Bella, could perhaps anything I have said or done be a trigger for you? Which is OK too.
(((((BELLA))))
Lise
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Carolyn,
This quote kept coming into my mind this past weekend so I wanted to share it with you, I know you know it:
Luke 15:7 "I tell you that in the same way, there will be more joy in heaven over one sinner who repents than over ninety-nine righteous persons who need no repentance.
Lise
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Carolyn,
This quote kept coming into my mind this past weekend so I wanted to share it with you, I know you know it:
Luke 15:7 "I tell you that in the same way, there will be more joy in heaven over one sinner who repents than over ninety-nine righteous persons who need no repentance.
Lise
Dear Lise,
Oh, yes, I know that quote... spoken by the Lord Jesus just shortly before He told the parable of the prodigal.
This particular passage is especially joyful to me, as it revealed something profound to me about the heart of God when my pastor taught on it awhile back and pointed out... well, here,
"In the same way, I tell you, there is joy in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner who repents." (from the NASB)
As pastor said, and who is rejoicing in this passage? Who is it there, in the presence of the angels? God Himself, HE is doing the rejoicing. even as he does when those who are in the Son are "one" together in Him... (John 17).
ahhh... such wonderful news! Thank you, Lise :D
And thank you for seeing the changes in my heart.
With love,
Carolyn
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Well, I've continued reading this book, but not posted on it... till tt's post re: the heart reminded me of this section.
Controversial though it may be, I'll share it here... because so much of it has proven true within my own life:
One of the chief reasons that we pick destructive people is that we're unable to judge character.
Many times, when we are choosing important people in our lives, we do not think of character as the main factor.
We look at how we feel, to whom we are attracted, or what seems to "pull" us toward a certain person.
Our choices are very subjective.
In a sense, matters of the heart are mostly subjective and unconscious, and that's not bad.
Soul connections should not always be made on a rational basis. What a boring life that would be!
The unconscious part of ourselves has a wisdom of its own, and in some ways our heart knows what it wants and needs.
That is valid.
But God has made us with two sides of our being, the rational and the emotional; when they are in conflict, we are in trouble.
We need to use both reason and emotion in our choosing of people. We get into danger when we ignore our reason, when we find our hearts are attracted to people that our heads know
better than to choose. At those times, we find ourselves picking people who cannot satisfy our needs and whose character does not measure up to our essential values.
Our hearts become disconnected from our values and in conflict with our true needs.
Because our hearts have been programmed to seek some sort of sickness inside, we find relationships that match the sickness inside our hearts.
For example,
many single Christians find themselves falling head over heels in lvoe with someone who is unloving and irresponsible.
Jesus warns us to face first that which is inside our own hearts, and only then will we be able to judge others accurately and pick safe relationships.
Our own character issues blind us to the destructiveness of other people.
We must first realize that we have a problem in being able to judge character
before we can stop playing the naive victim.
I see, most definitely, that this was the case for me, when I agreed to marry both the father of my children and npd-ex.
More later...
Carolyn
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One of the chief reasons that we pick destructive people is that we're unable to judge character.
Very true. This fits in with what I am always trying to say here on the board which is that "tears wash our eyes so that we can see th world better." If we have, which most of us do, unfinished business or trauma that never got resolved or worked through then we are going to be unconsciously making our way through life selecting people that we unconsciously know will wound in a way that resembles the original trauma or wound.
Until I started doing this real deep healing I could not discern people very well. Now my eyes are open and my ears are trained to listen to what people are not saying and to hear their emotions and where they are speaking from. Knowing yourself is key.
We need to use both reason and emotion in our choosing of people.
This is how I selected my roommates, my good new ones! Age factors and responsibility, character and asking them why the are moving in other words is there a history etc. Warmth and friendliness was important but is was a combination of things, keeping my eyes wide open and listening with my heart.
Jesus warns us to face first that which is inside our own hearts, and only then will we be able to judge others accurately and pick safe relationships.
This is good -- or cast out the log in thy own eye before you try to remove the splinter in someone elses...
Our own character issues blind us to the destructiveness of other people.
We must first realize that we have a problem in being able to judge character
before we can stop playing the naive victim.
Yep -- we have a part in our victim patterns. Looking back I realize that I choose N saint, my unconscious choice because I was blind to my own pain.
My therapist confirmed for me this weekend, that her behavior is far more destructive and she is far more acting out the N traits in her life than I was or am, she was projecting onto me her N stuff -- mud sticks best to clean spot but she was still seeing the splint in my eye the splint that I have been trying to remove.
Thanks Carolyn for this -- I've ordered the book!
Lise
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Isolation and fear of abandonment:
Our lack of connection is a big reason why we choose unsafe people.
If we're not able to connect in an intimate way with others, then we will often pick people who are unable to connect as well.
When someone is feeling isolated inside herself, she is likely to pick isolating relationships - - repeatedly - - until she addresses her own problems (the inner isolation from self).
The fear of abandonment fuels an ongoing isolating connection.
Many times, someone who is in a painful relationship really should set strong disciplinary boundaries - or cut off the relationship altogether for a time.
But she fears being alone so much that she can't do it.
Each time she considers standing up to the other person, or getting out of the relationship, she is overwhelmed by feelings of loss and aloneness, and either avoids taking the difficult step to begin with... or quickly caves in.
"This all or nothing split keeps the isolation and the abandonment going"... such a vicious circle!
This has been absolutely true of me in the past. Because I had no primary safe and supportive relationships, I chose to have unsafe relationships... rather than nothing at all.
My own upbringing gave me no sense of self, but only models which I saw as fake and phony... can't emulate a phantom.
Rejecting those models, I threw myself into relationships with men who were completely different from my parents externally and by belief system, yet equally empty and devoid of intimacy.
That cycle has continued for 30 years, in with relationships of all sorts... including friendships with vampirish people who appeared to be emotionally equipped but who really only wanted to dump their feelings onto me because they refused to feel them themselves... or, worse yet, demanded constant attention and adulation as proof of "friendship".
Enough of that!
Lise... I hope you enjoy the book!
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After inability to judge character
and
Isolation and fear of abandonment,
the third reason given for our choices of unsafe people is "Defensive Hope".
The authors define this as hope that protects us against grief and sadness.
In other words, simply hoping that a person will change can sometimes keep us from facing the pain which we need to face.
We tend to think that if we just love them correctly, or more, or enough, the unsafe people will change...
or if we just let them know about their mistakes, or cry the blues, or get angry... that then they'll behave differently.
This sort of defensive hope disappoints, because in these scenarios, we're using hope to defend ourselves against facing the truth, reality, about someone we love. We try to protect ourselves from the sadness of admitting that they're not likely to change... and so we hope.
Usually, this sort of hope didn't just begin in our current relationships, though. Generally, we have an old pattern of not facing grief and disappointments in many past relationships, all the way back to our childhoods.
Facing the grief and sadness is so difficult because it places the responsibility for change upon us, ourselves, instead of hoping that the unsafe person is going to change. We must learn to stop expecting her to change, to adapt, to get the courage to set limits and consequences and make many more tough choices which may change our relationships.
Not facing reality means we stay stuck and get more of the same in the future. According to the authors, defensive hope is one of the biggest reasons we allow destruction to continue in life.
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Carolyn,
You remind me why I loved this book. That trifecta or triple play really sums up my life-
1. Inability to judge character-How could I? When you're raised in an N family, how can you accurately judge character? I didn't know they were being abusive and I didn't know that I didn't have to take the abuse. When you're raised in an N family, you take a lot of cr*p from people because you don't know any better. You think everyone is like that and that's just how life is.
2. Isolation and fear of abandonment- For sure. I really liked the way you talked about choosing people who are unable to connect. This left me feeling frustrated, lonely and isolated.
3. Defensive Hope- Perhaps this is the worst of the 3. Always hoping that if I just did this or that, things would get better, but of course they never did and I would blame myself and just try harder. A vicious cycle that wore me down and evetually left me in stage 2: Isolation, you just give up because you're tired of the pain and being hurt.
What a magnificent book. Thank you for discussing it. I love Townsend and Cloud.
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Carolyn,
Thank you for posting about this book. I have found it so insightful. I have been such a bad judge of charcter because of my own abandonment issues. The words jumped off the screen at me. Descriptions of unsafe people were like the script of my relationship with XN. I have known for a long time that I am blind to unsafe people/men particularily and while I understand the theory it is the "feeling" that is like an addiction to me. All rational thought is overridden by my need to be with the Nperson and the "highs" that brings.........I am hoping this is in the past now. I appreciate very much your clear and honest postings on safe people............. I hope I am learning from this. The struggle for me is to not hide in isolation as a way of keeping "safe"
Many thanks,
axa
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Dear Annie and Axa,
I'm so glad to know that these posts are helping... thank you for posting to say so!
Cloud and Townsend are two of my favorites, as well, Ann :)
Looking back at my life, it's easy to see that being a rotten judge of character has been one of my most obvious troubles for so long... that it still amazes me nobody pointed it out to me sooner.
But I guess my mother did... just I never considered her a credible witness. Actually, what I recall her saying was, "I guess you just didn't think very much of yourself. Fact was, if I knew she didn't care for someone, that just gave that person
more points, in my book. Good grief, I have messed up big time in trying so hard not to be like her... and yet, still have some of her worst traits haunting me.
And the whole concept of Defensive Hope still startles me, because I have been accused by the abusers in my life of giving up on them - of writing them off - of demanding that they be perfect -
despite the fact that I'd already tolerated so much more than should have been allowed. But with the book's clear explanation of what defensive hope is (as opposed to hoping in the Lord Jesus, which is a sure and certain hope,
I am starting to be able to distinguish... and not feel so guilty for having and enforcing boundaries.
Anyhow, I'll continue adding bits here as I'm able, because it seems to help reinforce the material... for digestive purposes :)... and this stuff I think needs to be practiced daily... at least for me it does, because I am really slow at absorbing it and putting it into practical application.
With appreciation to you both,
Carolyn