Voicelessness and Emotional Survival Message Board
Voicelessness and Emotional Survival => Voicelessness and Emotional Survival Message Board => Topic started by: Gabben on January 31, 2008, 02:36:29 PM
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This past year has been one of deep healing and looking into another deep level of shame around my abandonment issues as well as I had experienced awakening to my mothers N traits and behaviors and how they deeply wounded me as baby and as a toddler.
One of the things that triggered me into all of this pain were my resentments. Last year I found myself awaking every morning filled with self-rightous anger at others in my life. Although I rarely acted on these feelings, when I did, such as write someone who hurt me an angry letter once, telling them what I felt and what I really thought, I was made by certain people to feel ashamed for it.
My behavior in the past is and has been critical of others, yet to keep it in perspective and not shame myself as some sort of "unsafe" person and to see myself as having a combination of loving and unloving traits at different times in my life is the key.
Also, to keep reminding myself that how others see me is none of my business, what matters the most is how God sees me.
Today, I have shaming thoughts. I feel that sometimes people here are trying to tell me something, as if I do not already know...I feel as though I should grab a stick and club myself so that people here can feel better about themselves. Yet, I know that is not the case and that people here are not that passive -- That is just me condemning me.
One thing I have learned is that in order to be truly helpful to others we have to love, love and love. For the most part this is my number one goal in life, forgiving my parents used to be the number one goal. But now I know that I have forgive them AND love them.
The anger and deep hurt in my heart just keeps coming up. I awake in the morning hurting, I open my eyes and hot tears stroll down my face. I feel the aloneness of that little girl who at age 4 had no one. No one to see her, adore her, hold her, pay attention to her, protect her. Her pain is not my pain...it is her pain.
Lise
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Dear Lise,
I understand that you may be feeling that people are saying "passive " things.Women fight in more passive ways.It is just a reality Maybe, they are, maybe not.I have done passive things on the board, at times ,and people have done it to me. You are right that it doesn't really matter,but it is hard to ignore other's reactions to us, b/c we are social creatures,by nature.
*I* hear you putting too much pressure on yourself to "love". I hear it. I could be wrong. I see you needing to be MORE selfish,more "N", if you will.
Maybe, I am reading "myself" in to you, but *I* need to be more *N" and less 'little voice"(LV).
I know that I am missing some of your points. If you could clarify with more specifics, I would appreciate it. Love Ami
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well, yeah...
I guess we get angry about boundary violations, mostly. And the people who violated the boundary don't want to accept responsibility for the violation (maybe even that there WAS a violation - denial) and because they don't acknowledge their responsibility.... there's this floating cloud of shame/blame...
just as quickly as they deny the violation belongs to them, unsafe people will try to stick the cloud to YOU.
You don't have to accept it.
Hi Amber,
Thanks,
Can you be a little more clear as to what you are saying?
Lise
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Hi (((Ami))),
Bottom line - I have a voice in my head that tells me that I need to be perfect, RIGHT NOW.
I have a voice in my head that says "how dare you ever lash out -- wrong, shame, wrong --- you deserve to be abandoned, ignored and rejected....then the rage and anger starts... the voice says "bad Lise bad Lise" how could you feel angry...anger is bad and your feeling it makes you bad!"
It is my mom's voice and it is my voice from when I was abandoned and I needed to defend myself. People without deep abandonment issues will not completely understand, I understand, it is OK.
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You don't have to accept it. I mean - who died & made them King?
If they were wrong about the boundary violation in the first place - you surely don't have to feel any shame or accept any blame for THEIR transgression.
If there's no "owner" of the cloud... doesn't it just evaporate?
Well that helps a little bit but are you talking about the people on the board, or in general, or my mom, who are you talking about?
Can you please, if you can, and are not too busy, take the time to be a little more clear with me. I feel as though I am supposed to read between the lines here but I may just not be too smart and getting this.
Thank you, Amber.
Lise
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OK---THAT is clear enough for my addled brain.
Yes, I still agree with my former post----you (and I) need more "N"--more "me". My little dog.Mimi ,has such a strong life force. When I feed the dog's treats, she jumps up with gusto, to "seize' her part of life.She does not feel guilty or underserving..I think healthy people can say "Me"and "I" and feel strongly about it.
I see THAT as our path ,Lise. We(if I am not being presumptuous) need to have a confident, strong stance and be comfortable with that strong sense of an *I*.I think that I understand abandonment issues. I feel like I have a ton of them(lol)
I did not feel that I deserved the basic life nutrients ,so I think that I understand deep self hatred.
It feels very scary and wrong to claim our value. It feels like an invisible hand will come to slap us. We feel we will be shunned or punished. I understand this , very well.
I had an epiphany ,today. I have gotten a precious human love and I 'know" that God's love is so much deeper and unconditional than any human love.
I took God's love in to my heart ,in a new way ,today. I had, actually, never done it before, at all. I realized that for God to love us ,we just have to be "there',like a lamp or a tree. We did not have to do anything or measure up.
I think that you are afraid of your power and of claiming your 'beauty" and magnificance.
Compost what does not fit. Forgive me, if I overstepped my bounds. Everything was meant in love. Love Ami
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I accepted the shame cloud that was shoved at me.... THEN.
I refused it.... NOW.
YES --- EXACTLY!
Cloud of shame/blame evaporates (over time, sure) and so does the anger.
This is insightful....going to contemplate this more.
I don't wake up angry or in pain any mornings, anymore. Refusing the shame is the first step.
Are you comparing yourself to me or are you trying to offer me hope? Is life a healing competition? Where is the compassion?
After I spent 4 year in intensive therapy, back in my twenties reliving the trauma and re-feeling the old pain, I thought I was finished --I thought that I would never have to go through the pain again.
But deeper and deeper I go. Now 6 years after those four intensive years, not counting the two years before that I worked to just overcome the defensive behaviors, I still have painful memories - Am I supposed to be ashamed for still hurting after all of this time?? Or should I just shut up and get over it?
But then, she wasn't allowed to be angry - and she was angry about that too!
Exactly once again -- this is exactly what I am talking about...my anger...not being allowed to be angry. But the key is to take responsibility for adult thinking and behaving and to not let my inner wounded girl act out....but sometimes she does because she is not perfect. I feel that when she does act out that people assume that I have NEVER awakened to my deeper abandonment issues and that I am just beginning to heal. That is because they can't understand because they project themselves, some of us have deeper wounds, deeper hurts, deeper sufferings, that is just a fact. If you have not suffered to the levels or depths then the stuff I write here is not going to resonate with you, I understand.
All she wanted was to be able to experience her justifiable anger - and sadness. And have someone understand. And finally, she has me.
That is all I want too, thanks.
Lise
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Hi Lise,
Hugs.
tt
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Yes,it is more clear, Amber -- I have been through all of this too. This is just a deeper layer being triggered by the unsafe people on this board. Who act perfect and without flaw and then turn around and point out in passive ways how bad you are.
But it is all like you said, it is about feeling the hurt and anger over the injustice of the abandonment, that is the pain.
When the old pain comes up it colors our world.
Just this weekend my T allows me to express it, "express it.....get it out.......yes, I feel hatred! But I am OK.
Please do not make me feel ashamed because I hurt...PLEASE!
Lise
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PS - our posts are crossing in cyberspace....
it was compassion for a level of pain I "heard" in your first post that made me post quickly - maybe prematurely.
Thank you Amber - I appreciate your quick response, I appreciate your time and your energy!!
I'm just so hurting right now that my world is colored and I cannot see all that clearly even though you ARE clear.
Thanks for you heart, time and care.
((((AMBER))))
Lise
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Dear Lise,
I am trying to just let feelings go by--even "bad" ones. I try to let thoughts go by, too--even "bad ones. I feel much better about myself when I can do this.
When I was healthier, I figured that if I had a "bad" feeling(anger, fear etc), it was just human. Abused people think that they are "bad" for the same things that "normal" people call 'human",IMO. Ami
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Gabben,
I think you are correct, in that myself and Hermes (I expect we are the ones who triggered this post?) feel very comfortable expressing our voices, even when it involves expressing a difference of opinion. In my opinion this is healthy and a foundation fof recovery from voicelessness, and I wish you felt the same way about expressing your voice, rather than angry at us for expressing ours.
I don't know how to help you with the sense of `shame' an alternate voice triggers within you.I think i can understand it, but I can't accommodate it without shutting myself down.
But perhaps it would help to understand we are not responsible for causing your shame, nor do I personally believe you are shameful in any way. Heck, Gabben, you are smart, caring, thoughtful, moral, insightful woman. By token of your intelligence and verbosity, you are going to express strong opinions, and you are going to frequently engage in conversations with others who hold strong opinions *because they respect you enough to do so*.
So let me say upfront, I am going to continue to express my voice and my opinions, and I hope you will continue to express yours.
Love and hugs,
X bella
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Gabben,
I think you are correct, in that myself and Hermes (I expect we are the ones who triggered this post?) feel very comfortable expressing our voices, even when it involves expressing a difference of opinion. In my opinion this is healthy and a foundation fof recovery from voicelessness, and I wish you felt the same way about expressing your voice, rather than angry at us for expressing ours.
Actuallly - no Bella - It was not you and or hermes
...express away...an may I also express?
The person who triggered this knows it and they love doing it and they sit back in delight as I squirm because they are a psychopaths and watching me squirm is exactly what makes them tick.
Lise
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Thats good to know, thanks Gabben. I didn't see you disagree with anyone else on the `safe people' thread, so i assumed that you were referring to us. I must have missed something(which I tend to do, being in another time zone).
I am sorry you are feeling persecuted by someone, that is so nasty!
X bella
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No worries, Bella.
I do not care that we disagree and I do not care that you have different views. I mean I care, but it does not bother me or trigger me the way people who act blameless and supremely perfect trigger me.
Lise
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I second your post fully and utterly, Bella.
You expressed that very well.
Hugs
Hermes
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I second your post fully and utterly, Bella.
You expressed that very well.
Hugs
Hermes
Hermes will you please read my thread and stick to the nature of what I am talking to here if you wish to respond -- Assuptions have been made, this thread is in jepardy of being taken over in an attempt to gang up on me.
Please do not come on to my thread, a thread about my pain and hurt about my mom and dad's abandonment and the deep wounds that I am feeling, which was NOT triggered by you and bella, and try to gang up on me with Bella -- that is a limit, please respect it.
Thank you,
Lise
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After reading Carolyn's last post on the safe people thread, I felt that sometimes people here are trying to tell me something, as if I do not already know...I feel as though I should grab a stick and club myself so that people here can feel better about themselves.
Honestly Gabben, this is getting crazy.
Who else on the `Safe people' thread did you disagree with? I did not see anyone, so I believe that your comment above was directed at us. And now you're calling it an `assumption'. If it was someone else, who was it? PM me if you like.
There is no `gang'. Noone thinks you should be grabbing sticks or doing any clubbing, well I am most certainly not. But you are being rude and angry now.
Whats up, Gabben? Honestly, whats up?
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After reading Carolyn's last post on the safe people thread, I felt that sometimes people here are trying to tell me something, as if I do not already know...I feel as though I should grab a stick and club myself so that people here can feel better about themselves.
Honestly Gabben, this is getting crazy.
Who else on the `Safe people' thread did you disagree with? I did not see anyone, so I believe that your comment above was directed at us. And now you're calling it an `assumption'. If it was someone else, who was it? PM me if you like.
There is no `gang'. Noone thinks you should be grabbing sticks or doing any clubbing, well I am most certainly not. But you are being rude and angry now.
Whats up, Gabben? Honestly, whats up?
Hi Bella,
If I said that my quote was not directed at you then that is exactly what I meant, I'm not lying.
If my thread here was to have been read, then you would see what is "up."
Please do not call this crazy as it seems to passively be referring to my behavior and secondly as I appreciate your concern but this is not about you.
The gang and club comments are metaphorical language.
Lise
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Bella - we bump heads, nothing wrong with that.
Why don't we take a break from communicating here for awhile? I do not feel that we are connecting, which is OK and we seem to not effectively be supporting each other, which is OK too. We are at different places, which is OK too.
Peace and hugs to you Bella,
Lise
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Lise,
I'm not sure what's going on here, but since one of my postings has been mentioned, I just want you to know that I've not posted a single thing on this board with a passive intent to effect you in any way...
and I wish you the very best.
Carolyn
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Gabs,
I hear you, but I do feel entitled to call you on your accusations when they false and hurtful, and on your behavior when it is rude towards me. And I believe you are entitled to do the same.
Just going on a tangent here which relates directly with this thread, ...in the bigger sense, I think many of us struggle to both interpret and know what to do with our triggers. I respect you for attempting to work through the origins of your feelings on this thread, and I find you to be an honest person. I am perhaps surprised (?) that you di not take this one step further, and recognize that a person who triggers you (ie me) is not attacking you. You do not know my thoughts, intent, or feelings. Y If you feel shame, it does not mean I `made' you feel that shame. If you feel pain, It does not mean that my intents were horrible.
I guess I hoped you'd see this. Maybe you do.
But I'll leave it alone if you'd like. Thats all I hoped to get across to you.
Anyhow, I like firey people for some reason, so all is good with me. I don't get worked up, but wish I did. I think admire a bit of fire, lol
Have a nice day Gabs.
X bella
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Gabs,
I hear you, but I do feel entitled to call you on your accusations when they false and hurtful, and on your behavior when it is rude towards me. And I believe you are entitled to do the same.
Ok, thanks Bella.
Lise
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One thing I have learned is that in order to be truly helpful to others we have to love, love and love. For the most part this is my number one goal in life, forgiving my parents used to be the number one goal. But now I know that I have forgive them AND love them.
The anger and deep hurt in my heart just keeps coming up. I awake in the morning hurting, I open my eyes and hot tears stroll down my face. I feel the aloneness of that little girl who at age 4 had no one. No one to see her, adore her, hold her, pay attention to her, protect her. Her pain is not my pain...it is her pain.
Lise
Dear Lise,
So many things about your post touched some things very deep inside me. I have not been feeling well today; I have been regretting that I had to learn anything more about my abusive childhood. I am sad and mad my mother still tries to make me ashamed and insecure and lacking when I exhibit the most normal and basic of human emotions, wants, needs, and opinions. I have been mad and distressed today, mad at God because He never gives me a break and won't ever let me be just happy and normal, I have been mad at all the normal, happy, carefree people, mad at myself because I cannot just "get over it." In short, at least for today I am a basket case and I don't have time for all of this because I have too much to do to feel so awful....
Anyway, in all the pain (and I very much relate to feeling that little, hurting abandoned 4 year old girl, who IS very much me, or at least a fundamental part of the me I am now) I am sensing I must in some real way forgive HER and love HER, first of all and most of all. Everyone else can just get in line.
I don't know how to express what I really mean, and since all this NPD info is relatively new, I may be talking nonsense. I am just feeling like somehow this child, this me that was born into the world was NEVER cared for properly in any way, and somehow I as an adult am going to have to take on the responsibilities of loving her and caring for her just as if she were my child. Gosh, I am rambling, and I apologize but I feel really mentally ill and sad today.... God bless you, Lise, and God bless the little girl.... Violet
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Violet,
What a blessing you are to my spirit hugs, Violet.
Your post resonated with me, you are gentle, humble and insightful, thanks.
you said:
I have been mad and distressed today, mad at God because He never gives me a break and just lets me be happy and normal, I have been mad at all the normal, happy, carefree people, mad at myself because I cannot just "get over it." In short, at least for today I am a basket case and I don't have time for all of this because I have too much to do to feel so awful....
My heart felt full of compassion for you as I read the above, I am there with you. I hope that you can give yourself a hug and let yourself release those tears that are fighting there way out.
The anger hurts doesn't it? I can't stand the anger, I would rather feel the pain but that is progress.
Anger is just a defence against our pain and tears.
Last night I was thinking of you, I realized that made a comment on one of your threads that went like this: " all mental illness is is a refusal to suffer." I hope that you did not think I was trying to say something to you?
I wrote that comment because this past weekend I was hurting and I wanted to reach for a cigarette, my mind was racing and I was feeling anxious. I started to breath and sit with what was coming up for me emotionally, it pain and more tears. I cried and at times just sat there feeling intense pain and hurting. I was suffering the deprivation of the loss of my mom's love, or genuine love, the stuff we need to live and live happily.
As I was suffering my thoughts calmed and my anxiety left me, then I thought to myself, "wow...all mental illness is an unwillingness to suffer." I thought "all I do is geared around seeking relief." I was saying that I was feel mentally ill for me. I can relate.
You violet ARE NOT mentally ill. From what I can discern from your posts, you are all there and for the most part, people who admit that they suffer depression, anger and all the stuff that you admitted to are usually more healthy than those that do not admit to anything and pretend to have it all together.
Thank you so much - what great voice you have -- I am happy you are here.
Love,
Lise
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Gabben,
I think you are correct, in that myself and Hermes (I expect we are the ones who triggered this post?) feel very comfortable expressing our voices, even when it involves expressing a difference of opinion. In my opinion this is healthy and a foundation fof recovery from voicelessness, and I wish you felt the same way about expressing your voice, rather than angry at us for expressing ours.
Actually - no Bella - It was not you and or hermes
...express away...an may I also express?
The person who triggered this knows it and they love doing it and they sit back in delight as I squirm because they are a psychopaths and watching me squirm is exactly what makes them tick.
Lise
I just realized that I wrote above and it seems to be directed to someone on the board...not. I was referring to N saint T(my original trigger that brought me to the board)....I thought this was obvious.
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Violet,
What a blessing you are to my spirit hugs, Violet.
Your post resonated with me, you are gentle, humble and insightful, thanks.
you said:
I have been mad and distressed today, mad at God because He never gives me a break and just lets me be happy and normal, I have been mad at all the normal, happy, carefree people, mad at myself because I cannot just "get over it." In short, at least for today I am a basket case and I don't have time for all of this because I have too much to do to feel so awful....
My heart felt full of compassion for you as I read the above, I am there with you. I hope that you can give yourself a hug and let yourself release those tears that are fighting there way out.
The anger hurts doesn't it? I can't stand the anger, I would rather feel the pain but that is progress.
Anger is just a defence against our pain and tears.
Last night I was thinking of you, I realized that made a comment on one of your threads that went like this: " all mental illness is is a refusal to suffer." I hope that you did not think I was trying to say something to you?
I wrote that comment because this past weekend I was hurting and I wanted to reach for a cigarette, my mind was racing and I was feeling anxious. I started to breath and sit with what was coming up for me emotionally, it pain and more tears. I cried and at times just sat there feeling intense pain and hurting. I was suffering the deprivation of the loss of my mom's love, or genuine love, the stuff we need to live and live happily.
As I was suffering my thoughts calmed and my anxiety left me, then I thought to myself, "wow...all mental illness is an unwillingness to suffer." I thought "all I do is geared around seeking relief." I was saying that I was feel mentally ill for me. I can relate.
You violet ARE NOT mentally ill. From what I can discern from your posts, you are all there and for the most part, people who admit that they suffer depression, anger and all the stuff that you admitted to are usually more healthy than those that do not admit to anything and pretend to have it all together.
Thank you so much - what great voice you have -- I am happy you are here.
Love,
Lise
Dear Lise,
I wish I could figure out how to use this board the way I want to. I don't know how to isolate and comment on separate statements and put them in boxes, so I will just plug along.... First of all, thank you for making me feel you are happy I am here. I am "happy" I am here too, but probably "happy" is not quite the word for what I am feeling at the moment.
Re: your comment on one of my other threads, you said: 'all mental illness is an unwillingness to suffer.' I thought that was quite profound. I am not sure exactly what that means to you but what I took away from it was this: True psychopathology (mental illness?) results from not being willing and/or able to face the pain and work and agony and honesty involved in facing the truths about our selves and our lives and making the hard choices needed to grow into more whole, humane individuals. Is that sort of what you mean? In other words, mental illness is really a kind of denial of truth....
Lise, I am sad for your suffering, but I do honestly believe God comforts those who mourn. We are many of us in mourning here, we have lost so much.... Yes, I am sad tonight....
I hear lots of brave, honest, hurt, but courageous voices on this board and I have been reading these posts quite a while now. I like the freedom I am feeling, the freedom to maybe find and express my voice and hopefully (please, God!) grow toward more inner truth and goodness and honesty in my life.... Sorry, Lise, rambling seems to be my strong point.... Violet
Oh, yeah, when I say I feel "mentally ill," I don't mean it in the literal sense, I should probably say I feel sick at heart.... I just plain feel bad today, lots of sadness and fears and guilt, and I am really having something like anxiety attacks, not full blown, just trembling and shaking and foreboding feelings and I hate it! I have to admit I HATE PAIN, but that is part of the price to be paid for honest and searing self-awareness.... Oh, well, thankfully I can go to bed soon. God bless you, Lise.... V
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Hello Bella, and everyone:
Well, it is late and I am off to bed. Talking about triggers. I am SO reminded of the way my dear ex-NH used to talk to me, and it is just so delightful as in:
"""Hermes will you please read my thread and stick to the nature of what I am talking to here if you wish to respond -- Assuptions have been made, this thread is in jepardy of being taken over in an attempt to gang up on me.
Please do not come on to my thread, a thread about my pain and hurt about my mom and dad's abandonment and the deep wounds that I am feeling, which was NOT triggered by you and bella, and try to gang up on me with Bella -- that is a limit, please respect it."""
Thank you,
Lise
Best to everyone
Hermes
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Hi, Hermes...
Just a friendly note...
I have been in your metaphorical shoes, as far as thinking along the lines of what you've just expressed... and I was wrong.
Please just consider the difference between a person raging at you and following you from place to place, waiting outside the door for you to pounce the moment you exit your place of retreat, never allowing a moment's peace (a bit of my own experience with ex-N)...
as I was saying, the difference between that and...
a person feeling outnumbered in her own home (a thread she initiated?) by two people whom she interprets as being joined in united disagreement with her and exchanging back-pats about it.
Disclaimer: I am NOT saying that's what has happened here. I am merely suggesting that the above is one possible interpretation of events, and from that perspective, I think a person would be doing quite well to simply ask one to bug off.
Thanks for listening.
Carolyn
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Thanks Carolyn, but with the greatest respect I am not a mind-reader, and I cannot second-guess either that someone is going to interpret a perfectly reasonable post. I do NOT gang up on people (heaven knows I had that with the N ganging up solo on me), because it is not my style.
I have not been treated with such rudeness in a very long time, and I will not tolerate it. I am entitled to stand up, here, and say that. Otherwise, I am rendered voiceless.
I could say: "the moon is very bright tonight", and someone could put any spin they like on it. It is THEIR problem, not mine.
All the best
Hermes
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Hello Bella, and everyone:
Hi Hermes,
If you are going to post on my thread, please respect my presence here and that I read these posts as well as that I am not an object to be dismissed or ignored.
Your post is a form of passive aggression. If I was to point that out and not point out my own passive aggression in the past as well as even today, I would be a hypocrite. The point is that you have anger and your anger is OK. But how we handle it is not, myself included.
Let me say this. If you feel hurt or slighted or angry - then please be direct and express that. Please know that your behavior is not cool but you are OK -- we are all wounded here and your voice is wanted and cared for here -- And so is mine.
Carolyn - I respect and appreciate your post, thank you.
Lise
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Hello Bella, and everyone:
Well, it is late and I am off to bed. Talking about triggers. I am SO reminded of the way my dear ex-NH used to talk to me, and it is just so delightful as in:
"""Hermes will you please read my thread and stick to the nature of what I am talking to here if you wish to respond -- Assuptions have been made, this thread is in jepardy of being taken over in an attempt to gang up on me.
Please do not come on to my thread, a thread about my pain and hurt about my mom and dad's abandonment and the deep wounds that I am feeling, which was NOT triggered by you and bella, and try to gang up on me with Bella -- that is a limit, please respect it."""
Thank you,
Lise
Best to everyone
Hermes
Sleep Well Hermes, I am sorry you felt hurt, and I would have felt the same way if those words were directed at me. I shared the same perceptions as you on this thread, and found your posts reasonable. If people want to call `sharing the same perceptions' something more malignant, let them; they are entitled. I agree with a lot of people and have never had it called it ganging up or back slapping before. Lol.
I really am sorry for your pain today. And for Gabs too. She's working through a lot of stuff right now, and I know how raw that can feel!
X bella
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"""Hermes will you please read my thread and stick to the nature of what I am talking to here if you wish to respond -- Assumptions have been made, this thread is in jeopardy of being taken over in an attempt to gang up on me.
Please do not come on to my thread, a thread about my pain and hurt about my mom and dad's abandonment and the deep wounds that I am feeling, which was NOT triggered by you and bella, and try to gang up on me with Bella -- that is a limit, please respect it."""
Hi Bella,
Thanks for your post and your views.
This above, what you and Hermes are referring to, is just pure assertiveness...anyone else can read this and see that there is nothing passive, disrespectful and or hurtful here in what I wrote to Hermes. However, I could see how it would be ego deflating.
(((Bella)))
Lise
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I just realized something...
I think that there comes a point in healing... in recovery... in maturity and all that's associated with living well in this world...
where our intentions don't mean nearly as much to us as how someone else feels about our interaction with them.
Of course, all of this is only to a point... and each individual will draw the boundary line respective to her/his own comfort limits...
but still, I think it's a valid assessment. Love should be more important than all the but but but I didn't mean thats...
Just my thoughts.
Sleep well, everyone who's going to bed.
Carolyn
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That is interesting and thoughtful Carolyn, I like your thoughts, especially about love.
My head is a different place, i guess. What I perceive is a case where powerful triggers have led to emotively expressed negative character assumptions about the person whose words were triggering. And that person (people) were annoyed.
I am so sorry to sound clinical as i say this- my mind does this. I perhaps sound cold? But I see the conversation this way- in a structural way.
I have good feelings towards everyone involved.
Love to you all
X bella
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Hi, Bella,
My head goes that direction, too... and I see pretty much the same chain of events, as you've described.
I like the way you think!
Not so long ago, I wouldn't have been able to have such insight, though... because I had made such a habit of privately assessing peoples' inner motivations, chalking that up to discernment, when it was mostly based in fear.
After reading your post to Hermes, I was concerned that you might have been offended by my reference to perceived back patting on this thread. I'm quite sure that I made myself clear - that back-patting and ganging up was not my own perception.
However, what's important is not so much my intention or clarity, but rather another's perception of what I meant... so I really do hope you know that my intention was not to accuse you of ganging up against anyone.
I think it's great to take a clinical approach to these matters and to be able to walk away with good feelings toward everyone involved. I also think it's great to stretch the imagination to include consideration for those who maybe are unable to take such a clinical approach, due to... whatever. On my more hormonal days, I'd be hard pressed to maintain such level-headedness... so I can sure relate! One person telling me how ridiculous I am is more than enough at such times... and usually, that person is me, myself.
Anyhow, all is well.
Love to you,
Carolyn
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I get what you mean Carolyn, and I agree ina round about way, about being kind.
When it comes to my own triggers, I realize that theres a point where people who love me would feel boxed in and overly-restricted in catering to preventing my pain. I desperately fear abandonment, so what are they to do? Never express a bad mood? Never do anything independently of me, never disagree? No human can do that without forfeiting their emotional health and freedom. So at a certain point, I have to live with my own pain, and work out how to sooth myself, and struggle to interpret actions in the present accurately. Boy its hard, but I'm much,much better at it. If i do not do this, I would continue the cycle of abuse, justifying anger and retaliation by attributing blame to anyone who triggers my fear of abandonment. They are not accountable, unless they are do it deliberately and with the intention to cause me harm. I've only met one person in my entire life who is that cruel, and he was a psychopath. But such people are rare. Most people are just people, stumbling along.
Hermes and I both expressed that we felt `too boxed in', as I read it. The disagreements were so small and the relatiation so big in relation to that, that we felt `boxed in'. Theres was no room to have a voice, even a mildly dissenting one, as I experienced things.
This situation has occurred many times on the forums, and it so rarely resolved. I suppose thats why I've stuck with the topic this time. I would be nice to be heard, but perhaps i don't communicate that well, or not kindly enough., or just think differently about tings.
Thanks for lsitening anyway.
X bella
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I'm not sure why I am entering in here but I am waffling about whether to speak or keep silent and speaking seems to have won out. I really hate to see the bickering here on the board. I have said this before but I am going to say it again. For the most part, those of us here on this board have deep wounds. Our wounds can be easily triggered by people other than those who wounded us first but suddenly, unconsciously we are back in that original wounding and no longer impotent, now we lash out. We lash out as though lashing out is going to somehow miraculously resolve our original wound. It never does.
I am not taking sides though I don't think everyone will see it that way. However, I think that this thread was begun so that one person could work out a personal struggle. When others had a beef with this person I really think they can start another thread to work out their beef just as this thread's originator chose to do rather than hijacking the thread that prompted this one.
We are all wounded and in our woundedness we can become quite reactive. I hate to see it. I hate it for all of us.
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It may have happened that way, Kelly, if the `lashing out' had not extended over to this thread too, on the very first post. I'm not saying its right or wrong, but people do tend to feel hurt and react when they are abused verbally, accused falsely, or otherwise `lashed out' upon.
I think the bigger issue that those of us with wounds need to be responsible for them, so as not to become abusers ourselves.
Bella
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Agreed, Bella. Thank you for saying that, about being responsible for wounds, and not lashing out or accusing someone falsely. And I had no beef, nor do I have any beef with anyone. I was attacked for no reason, and I am SO reminded of the times back in N=land when that happens.
All the best
Hermes
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I know that,on the board, I have been on EVERY side of conflict. The board is like life, in this respect. Using our voice to assert ourselves is s/thing we could not do in our FOO. We could not express anger . We would have been hurt,in some way.
The purpose of the board is to find our voice. It is not all"nicey-nice". That is our problem, many times. We are too nice.
When conflict arises, it is not "bad". It is really an opportunity to develop our true voice. I think that all "sides' of the conflict can learn.
I don't see conflict as "bad" . Maybe, I am wrong.
I think that we are afraid of our anger, and b/c of this our anger hurts us. We repress it or use it too much. Either way, it is not in balance.
Every lesson I have learned on the board has helped me in life.
I don't see conflict, on a thread, as anyone's faliure. It is just part of life, which we did not learn at the right time, so we are learning it ,now.We are bound to work out our FOO issues with each other. How could we not? To me, the people who want "nicey -nice" all the time will remain sick b/c it is not "real". Part of our original problem(IMO) is wanting perfection from ourselves and our environment.Certain board members seem to get indignant about "conflicts". Well, tell me a conflict free zone in life? Where is it? We have to find our voice in conflict-----not run. That is my opinion. I could be wrong. Compost what does not fit. Love Ami
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Dear Ami:
That is a truly sensible point of view. And you are quite right. The world is not a cosy, conflict-free zone, where fairy-tales comes true. Wanting perfection is a futile exercise. We try to be the best we can, and IMO that is great. Only the NPD want "perfection", and part of their unreal inner world is the inability they have to close the "gap" (as it is called) between the world the way it is (warts and all) and the way they would wish it to be.
That said, I cannot understand why words like "conflict" have to be applied to a mere robust exchange of views. Nor is standing up for oneself "conflict". Applying words like "conflict" only ratchet up the idea of some kind of war, when there was none there.
All the best to everyone today.
Hermes
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Dear Bella,
Just want you to know that I do hear you. I think you're a very good communicator... but I also know that I'm willing and able to participate in fearless communication with you because I, personally, consider you a safe person.
So I guess what I'm learning from all this is that whether or not another is a safe person is often in the eye of the beholder.
Thanks for talking.
Love to you,
Carolyn
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Yes, Hermes, we could use other words like assertiveness or finding and having your voice. It is all the same(IMO). "Conflict "denotes s/thing bad and I really see learning to be assertive as "good",not "bad".
It can and does hurt to get there(being assertive). We have growing pains ,as we get there. We can be too passive or too aggressive, as we take steps to find our balanced voice.
The use of the word 'conflict "may suggest that it is a "bad' process, but I see it as good, so maybe I should have used another word or words ,like" steps to being assertive"(lol) Love Ami
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Dear Ami:
Again, you are so right. BTW I was not referring to you mentioning the word "conflict" LOL
Hugs
Hermes
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Hi, Hermes,
I absolutely agree with you about the use of the term "conflict"... but thought that was just me and my semantics, lol.
About this, you wrote:
Only the NPD want "perfection", and part of their unreal inner world is the inability they have to close the "gap" (as it is called) between the world the way it is (warts and all) and the way they would wish it to be.
Would you be interested in doing a thread on that topic? I'd like to understand more about this business of closing the gap... and I'm questioning whether it's really only NPD who has issues in that area.
Thanks! Hope you're having a great day!
Carolyn
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Hello Carolyn:
Thanks for your post. Well, shall we say I am having a reasonable day LOL.
In my work I deal a fair bit with people, and exchanges can at times be quite robust. And that is fine.
As for "the gap", it is a permanent state of mind for the NPD, that not being able to bridge that gap, indeed it is said to be at the core of their disorder.
The rest of us do, from time to time, wish the world were perfect, utopia. Difference is that we can see and accept that it isn"t. The NPD cannot.
All the best to you too
Hermes
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Dear Bella,
Just want you to know that I do hear you. I think you're a very good communicator... but I also know that I'm willing and able to participate in fearless communication with you because I, personally, consider you a safe person.
So I guess what I'm learning from all this is that whether or not another is a safe person is often in the eye of the beholder.
Thanks for talking.
Love to you,
Carolyn
Dear Carolyn,
`Safety' is possibly subjective, yes I agree. But by your definitions, I'd say the only people who would feel unsafe around safe people are abusive people or people protecting a lie. I think safe people can make unsafe people feel very, very bad by way of their honesty and unwillingness to accept abuse.
A safe person would believe that sharing slightly dfferent viewpoints (or vastly different ones!) is natural and healthy. An unsafe person responds to alternative viewpoints, even slight differences in opinion, with aggression, attempts to control and limit that person's voice through intimidation and other means, crazy-making, name-calling, character assassinations. Many of us have encountered N's or N-like people and know how that feels.
X Bella
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Dear Carolyn,
`Safety' is possibly subjective, yes I agree. But by your definitions, I'd say the only people who would feel unsafe around safe people are abusive people or people protecting a lie. I think safe people can make unsafe people feel very, very bad by way of their honesty and unwillingness to accept abuse.
A safe person would believe that sharing slightly dfferent viewpoints (or vastly different ones!) is natural and healthy. An unsafe person responds to alternative viewpoints, even slight differences in opinion, with aggression, attempts to control and limit that person's voice through intimidation and other means, crazy-making, name-calling, character assassinations. Many of us have encountered N's or N-like people and know how that feels.
X Bella
Hi, Bella,
I think that a person whose trust has been shattered by abuse, or (as I'm learning through my reading of Safe People) a person whose development was damaged due to lack of bonding, proper boundary development, etc. - - people like that might also not be able to tell who's safe and who's not. The problem may not be that they're abusive themselves or that they're trying to protect a lie, but simply that they don't know how to interpret what a genuinely "safe" person is honestly expressing. To them, it may feel like an attack... at least, at first blush, it may feel like that.
Anyhow, I can see that those who have been wounded may need to receive extra encouragement and calm reassurance. I'd rather have someone say, "Hey, I feel like you're attacking me and I don't like it!" than to simply assume something negative about my motivations and run with that false presumption.
Bella, I know I may be missing the mark here by a mile and I don't mean in any way to diminish what you've expressed. This is just where I am at this point, based on my own experiences. People who've never had proper instruction re: developmental issues like healthy boundaries and bonding are really not safe in and of themselves, imo. That doesn't mean they're lying or abusers... although some may indeed be such.
Love,
Carolyn
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Hi Bella,
There is some stuff that came up for me this morning, pain and insights which relate to my thread here, which I wanted to bring to this thread but I do not feel safe enough with your last post Bella because I feel that it passively relates to our exchanges in the past. However I could be wrong.
The point is that I want to get back the original topic of this thread.
Would you mind if you I ask for you post in another thread that relates to that subject you are taking about and is respectful of the person that created the thread, me?
Perhaps the "safe people" thread because it seems to relate to that subject.
Thank you Bella in advance for your understanding.
with love,
Lise
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I know that,on the board, I have been on EVERY side of conflict. The board is like life, in this respect. Using our voice to assert ourselves is s/thing we could not do in our FOO. We could not express anger . We would have been hurt,in some way.
The purpose of the board is to find our voice. It is not all"nicey-nice". That is our problem, many times. We are too nice.
When conflict arises, it is not "bad". It is really an opportunity to develop our true voice. I think that all "sides' of the conflict can learn.
I don't see conflict as "bad" . Maybe, I am wrong.
I think that we are afraid of our anger, and b/c of this our anger hurts us. We repress it or use it too much. Either way, it is not in balance.
Every lesson I have learned on the board has helped me in life.
I don't see conflict, on a thread, as anyone's faliure. It is just part of life, which we did not learn at the right time, so we are learning it ,now.We are bound to work out our FOO issues with each other. How could we not? To me, the people who want "nicey -nice" all the time will remain sick b/c it is not "real". Part of our original problem(IMO) is wanting perfection from ourselves and our environment.Certain board members seem to get indignant about "conflicts". Well, tell me a conflict free zone in life? Where is it? We have to find our voice in conflict-----not run. That is my opinion. I could be wrong. Compost what does not fit. Love Ami
Thank you for this Ami.
Your support helps me. Conflict is OK.
Lise
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Yes, it is the damned if you do, and damned if you don't scenario.
We all need encouragement, we all have problems, of one kind or another.
What we do not need is to be jumped on (that is what the N does), and brought back momentarily to N-planet, where everything one says was wrongly construed, no matter HOW it was said.
In any case, this is all so tiring, and is only going around in circles.
Hope you are keeping well today, Bella. I sense this has upset you.
Hermes
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The ONLY thing bad about "conflict" is our fear of it .Instead of dealing with it in an assertive way, our FOO issues of shame ,fear and guilt propel us deal with it inappropropriately,(either too aggressively or stuffing it). Then, what might have been a little nothing thing can blow up. That seems to make sense to me ,Lise. Love Ami
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I am all for the thread getting on topic Lise; I wish it would. I cannot guarantee that I will limit my voice here if I am addressed personally, falsely accused or insulted unfairly. But I would really like to address what is being said about me, and addressing that in the place where those accusations are being hurled around makes the most sense.
Carolyn,
Out of respect for Gabben, I would like to continue this conversation on another thread, if that ok with you?
Bella
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That doesn't mean they're lying or abusers... although some may indeed be such.
Love,
Carolyn
This was helpful for me since I tend to make myself feel so ashamed for having a different views and needing to express it.
Also, one of my patterns is that when I feel angry people often accuse me of abuse; in the past and now, when I have been assertive and stood up for myself, people often stay that I am mean.
I was taught that we either steer people to God or away from God. Not speaking our individual truth of how we feel and what want in relation to others behavior is steering people away from God. If someone steps on my toes my natural inclination is to retaliate, ouch that hurt, but of course to grow and mature is to become less reactionary and to restrain from lashing out. Even the best of us has angst and will need to express it from time to time.
Anger is good - God given and can be a powerful tool if used properly. There is nothing wrong with Challenging our loved ones and friends.
Carolyn -- even though you are not responding to the topic I sense, when reading you post, that you are aware of my reading this thread and my presence, thank you -- Lise
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Hi, Bella,
If you would like to continue discussions about this, I'm willing to try... on the Safe People thread is fine with me, or elsewhere, as you feel is appropriate. I do think that it's so much better to talk it out... well, ideally, to talk it through... but out is better than stuffed in.
Lise,
Once again, I'm glad for you that you spoke up about where you'd like this thread to go now.
I hear you being accepting of Bella's potential desire to continue talking and not trying to berate her or shame her for that, and I think that's a very right and mature approach... all the way around.
It's so important to be able to ask for what we need! That is something I've never been able to do, but I'm learning.
Thank you.
Love to you both,
Carolyn
P.S. Lise, with interruptions here, I just now saw your last post to me and will be back... hugs.
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Yes, it is the damned if you do, and damned if you don't scenario.
We all need encouragement, we all have problems, of one kind or another.
What we do not need is to be jumped on (that is what the N does), and brought back momentarily to N-planet, where everything one says was wrongly construed, no matter HOW it was said.
In any case, this is all so tiring, and is only going around in circles.
Hope you are keeping well today, Bella. I sense this has upset you.
Hermes
Hermes - your post is extremely disrespectful of me, hurtful, passive and accusatory of me being an N - would you like me to accuse you of being an N?
Would you like to be treated the way you are treating me, like an object?
This post of yours is passive aggression, hurtful, dishonest, mean, disrespectful of me.
Please show me one line that I have written anywhere on the board that has been disrespectful to you and as hurtful as what you write above?
Please stay off my thread and if you do not I will flag your posts and ask Dr. G to delete them.
Lise
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Heremes,
That is not a threat, that is limit and a promise.
Lise
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Feel free, Gabben, feel free.
Or: "anything you say".
Hermes
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Dear Lise,
..
Thank you for giving me the benefit of the doubt. Yes, I am aware of your presence, and I respect your presence, not only because this is your thread, which you initiated.... although that is a fact which is definitely worthy of serious consideration, I think!... but also because the discussions have directly involved you.
I wouldn't like it if people talked around me on a thread where I was really trying to work through some issues. On the other hand, I've watched plenty of issues fly by on the Safe People thread and not been too distracted... okay, maybe a bit distracted... but mostly, I don't ever want anyone to feel like I'm talking around or over them... because that feels minimizing, to me. Dismissing.
Being treated as though you're invisible is no fun.
Lise, I need to avoid some of my own old, engrained, bad habits here, too. One of those is judging people with whom I disagree.
Therefore, I am working really hard to attach no judgment to those here whose perspectives differ from my own... and... also... I think I'd be doing disrespect to you, as though you can't stand up for your own self?!... if I chimed in every time I agree/disagree with this one or that one.
Umm... feel free to ask me to hush any time. Sometimes I need it... and if I don't think I do need it, I'll say so, but not before giving the request due consideration.
Smiling now.
Love to you,
Carolyn
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Lise, I need to avoid some of my own old, engrained, bad habits here, too. One of those is judging people with whom I disagree.
Therefore, I am working really hard to attach no judgment to those here whose perspectives differ from my own... and... also... I think I'd be doing disrespect to you, as though you can't stand up for your own self?!... if I chimed in every time I agree/disagree with this one or that one.
Umm... feel free to ask me to hush any time. Sometimes I need it... and if I don't think I do need it, I'll say so, but not before giving the request due consideration.
Smiling now.
Love to you,
Carolyn
Carolyn,
I have judgemental problems too -- got to work on that.
Your support is great. Even if you need to point things out to me about me about what I am doing, it actually makes me respect you, I'm OK with you, now - you have worked on yourself and it shows -- you feel safe to me, even when we disagree.
Just ask Ami - her and I disagree as well as just this morning we had a spat...but we have committed to never leave each other and to be honest and to never make each other feel ashamed. I sense you get that.
Also, we are still getting to know each other -- it takes time.
When I see people being aggressive towards my friend Ami here I could not just sit back and let it happen. I had to speak up.
I see that is part of what you are doing too, perhaps?
Also, know that if you do not support me or stand up for me - It is OK - you do not have to stand up for me for me to like you and to hear your voice.
It is like Leah said - what you see with me is what you get.
Thanks (((Carolyn)))
Lise
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Lise,
Just some more rather random thoughts...
It's so rare, to me, to hear someone else who's willing to admit that she has problems with being judgmental
and so I have a very strong admiration for your honesty in that.
It's equally rare, I've found, to encounter someone who's willing to receive feedback... to be accountable for her actions and not simply dismiss
anyone who might take issue with her, or unfavorably compare her words to her actions.
There was a time when I felt myself to be uniquely qualified to provide feedback... lol.
Then I started to receive some of my own, and poorly!
That experience balanced me out considerably... heh.
I do need to be cautious, so as not to slip back into old patterns of black and white thinking.
Your consistent emphasis of the fact that we are all, each, a mixture of good and bad... well, that's encouraged me enormously.
On the issue of conflict, the primary definition of the word, when used as a noun *per dictionary.com* is:
"a fight, battle, or struggle, esp. a prolonged struggle; strife"
I don't see you engaging in conflicts. Rather, I see you trying to prevent them... particularly those vague, hazy, nearly subliminal,
passive ones which qare often never quite allowed to float to the surface. In that, you have really impacted my life.
What some folks here are interpreting as accusations against them, I am seeing as a shining of light upon your internal workings...
a very determined effort on your part to be transparent and vulnerable... and that takes a great deal of courage, I believe.
Far more courage and strength than going along pretending like you don't think as you do.
Is it paranoid to think that some people have hidden agendas.. possibly hidden even to themselves?
No, I don't think so. I think it's realistic.
Is it accusatory to express your thoughts about what you suspect might be motivating someone else's actions?
Again, no, I don't think so.
I think it's a reach toward another... a stretch for intimacy... an invitation to another to get to know you,
a request to the other, to take a step toward growth,
a laying aside of the self in baring your innermost thoughts to public exposure.
Maybe I'm wrong, but that's how I'm seeing it... as the direct opposite of the closed system in which I was raised,
and where I've spent so much of my life, where people pretend to be loving and caring, but couldn't care less what you really think
or how you truly feel.
So... thank you.
Love,
Carolyn
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By the way, Lise, I think that maybe the simplest answer to the question you've asked on this thread -
okay, well, first of all, I'd re-write the question to say - Why do people seem to think we should feel ashamed about our anger?
(because nobody can make us feel anything)
and my answer is -
Because people are ashamed of their own anger (or afraid of it.)
Love,
Carolyn
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I have not had the mental powers to jump in to this thread,but have been following it. Carolyn expressed my thoughts , perfectly. Thank you Carolyn. I love you and value you, Lise, so much.I am very grateful that you are my friend. It is my honor that YOU consider me a friend. Love Ami
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Thank you Carolyn and Ami - I am kind of speachless...if you can imagine that :D?
Carolyn your post will help me heal -- there was a release of tears as I read.
Thank you both (((((Carolyn))))) ((((((AMI)))))))
Blessings,
Lise
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((((((((Lise)))))))) I'm so glad. I can feel you healing, and it's a lovely thing...
and you've already helped me to take some giant leaps in that direction,
so that now I feel confident that I can tune out any nonsense which might still be swirling around me, refusing to let it in, while continuing toward the goal... sound health in mind and emotions!
Blessings to you, with Love,
Carolyn
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What happened here is the best usage of the board(IMO) ---deep healing and finding our true selves under the lies. Ami
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"""Is it paranoid to think that some people have hidden agendas.. possibly hidden even to themselves?
No, I don't think so. I think it's realistic.
Is it accusatory to express your thoughts about what you suspect might be motivating someone else's actions?
Again, no, I don't think so. "" (Carolyn)
I am still waiting to hear what my "hidden agenda" is supposed to be LOL.
Hermes
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Hi, Hermes,
I don't really know whether you have a hidden agenda or not... or what that hidden agenda might be.
Also, I'm aware that maybe the term sounds alot more sinister than I intended in that quote of mine you posted, but - as far as I'm concerned - a hidden agenda or motivation need not be for wicked purposes, at all... simply hidden, as in unrevealed... even to ourselves.
I've certainly encountered some issues like that within myself... concerns and deeply buried struggles which negatively impacted my attempts to relate to others... until they were brought out into the light.
We can't share with anyone what we don't yet know for ourselves... and we can't receive for ourselves what we don't yet know we need. Some of the particularly painful struggles here seem to occur between people who are just so basically different in styles... and it doesn't have to be that way, I don't think, unless one is determined to think that her style is superior to another.
And that is all my rambling for now... lol.
Love to you, sincerely,
Carolyn
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LOL Carolyn. I can assure you I have no hidden agenda.
Hidden agendas can consume so much energy, don't you think.
As for superiority, well I think we can safely leave that kind of agenda to the N.
My own view is that things are often simpler than we think, and that it is inadvisable to complicate things unnecessarily.
Best to you.
Hermes
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LOL Carolyn. I can assure you I have no hidden agenda.
Hidden agendas can consume so much energy, don't you think.
As for superiority, well I think we can safely leave that kind of agenda to the N.
My own view is that things are often simpler than we think, and that it is inadvisable to complicate things unnecessarily.
Best to you.
Hermes
Hi, Hermes,
Well, you're far ahead of me, then. Personally, I can't be so certain that my own heart won't deceive me.
To the best of my conscious awareness, I am not trying to advance any concealed agenda, but on the other hand, I am learning more all the time about hidden motivators which lie beneath the surface of conscious awareness.
What you've noted about energy consumption is a great point, too! The next time I am feeling particularly worn, due to no obvious reasons, I'll remember to take a look into my hidden agendas file :D
(((((((Hermes))))))
Carolyn
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LOL. Carolyn. A little tip: keep as far away from that hidden agendas stuff as you can!
Hermes
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umm... once again, I just realized something...
In the event that I am contributing here to the prolongation (if that's a word) of posting on this thread againt Lise's wishes, I want to apologize - I am sorry, Lise - and say that I'd forgotten which thread was what and that you'd wanted to maintain this one as per the topic.
Sincerely,
Carolyn
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Thank you Carolyn since I know that you have no hidden agenda with me now :D -- I feel safe with your posting on my thread in any regards.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Dear Hermes,
When I first signed on the board and noticed you posting here again, with no regard for my previous limits and expressions, I felt a pang of fear and hurt.
The topic of this thread was Shame and anger and why do people make us feel ashamed for our anger. I have not seen one reference to my topic from you nor have I seen an ounce of empathy or concern from you here on this thread for my feelings or the deep pain that I have expressed or even just simply my presence. On the contrary, the behavior by you towards me has been exceptionally inconsiderate and intentionally hurtful - that leaves me with a question, can you honestly admit to not having hidden agendas?
Please feel free to discuss whatever you want on this board but I will ask again, for the third time, please respect the topic here on this thread, and that this is my thread and that I am reading this thread.
Your behavior has show a clear disrespect for my feelings and limits. It is OK to express your self - but at some point, myself included we have to realize how our behavior and voice affects others.
Lise
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Thank you Carolyn since I know that you have no hidden agenda with me now :D -- I feel safe with your posting on my thread in any regards.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Lise
Thank you, Lise. I don't want to take for granted the privilege of being given the benefit of the doubt... or to be careless with your trust.
This is still an important thread, I believe, as anger is so often avoided (by me, at least) as though it were the cause of conflict...
when, in deed, I don't believe it is. According to the Word, it's pride which lies at the root of contention, and not anger. That, I know, to be a fact. In your anger, sin not. What's the sin here? Not anger... but rather an improper management of that anger, or - to be more specific - allowing that anger to develop into an unhealthy root of bitterness.
Just my general thoughts...
with love,
Carolyn
Carolyn
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Hello Bella, and everyone:
Well, it is late and I am off to bed. Talking about triggers. I am SO reminded of the way my dear ex-NH used to talk to me, and it is just so delightful as in:
"""Hermes will you please read my thread and stick to the nature of what I am talking to here if you wish to respond -- Assuptions have been made, this thread is in jeopardy of being taken over in an attempt to gang up on me.
Please do not come on to my thread, a thread about my pain and hurt about my mom and dad's abandonment and the deep wounds that I am feeling, which was NOT triggered by you and bella, and try to gang up on me with Bella -- that is a limit, please respect it."""
Thank you,
Lise
Best to everyone
Hermes
Hi Hermes,
Just to point out the above behavior on your part -- it does not seem to be flawless to me.
In your post above, please not how you address the board, as if I am not present (but you know I read), then you try to use my direct and honest words against me which is very passive agressive of you.
Then you underhand call me a NPD --- Not nice and not flawless - very rude.
I have made mistakes too -- but my behavior is not rude but more in line with honest and assertive.
I could not just let this go by.
P.S.
Your trying to slander me here as a N and asking the board for help IS ganging up behavior or relational aggression.
I don't expect you to REALLY look at your behavior here and your motives.
Just needed to get that out.
But, as I said on your communication thread, I am sorry for our tension and I will try to be more gentle, (walk on eggs shells around you whenever I disagree and want to express it).
Lise
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Dear Gabben,
I feel like my post to Hermes on the Communication thread triggered you. I'm so sorry. That was not my intention. God has forgiven me. Would you forgive me too?
tt
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((((tt)))),
As far as I am concerned there is nothing to forgive. You were just speaking your thoughts and voice, no harm in that. How can you control that I was triggerd and I am cerntainly not angry at you.
I appreciate your straightforward strategy here -- I'm glad that you spoke, I'm glad that you said what you said but this was just what I needed to say so that I can move on -- all OK :)
Love,
Lise
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Dear Gabben,
We know we've forgiven another when we no longer have a desire to get revenge. :)
tt
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""P.S.
Your trying to slander me here as a N and asking the board for help IS ganging up behavior or relational aggression.
I don't expect you to REALLY look at your behavior here and your motives."""
Gabben:
I do not intend to engage with you at all. Please, however, do not try to gas-light me.
Hermes
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I do not intend to engage with you at all. Please, however, do not try to gas-light me.
Hermes,
Just giving you a dose of your own medicine.
Lise
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What can I say? You need help, Gabben.
Hermes
"""Hermes,
Just giving you a dose of your own medicine.
Lise """
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What can I say? You need help, Gabben.
Hermes
"""Hermes,
Just giving you a dose of your own medicine.
Lise """
Hermes,
I'm quite OK but thank you for your concern.
Peace and blessings to you.
Lise
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Oh Hermes -- one more thing -- Here, from :SAM VAKNIN
Coping with Your Abuser
1a) Insist on Your Boundaries – Resist Abuse
Refuse to accept abusive behavior. Demand reasonably predictable and rational actions and reactions. Insist on respect for your boundaries, predilections, preferences, and priorities.
Demand a just and proportional treatment. Reject or ignore unjust and capricious behavior.
If you are up to the inevitable confrontation, react in kind. Let him taste some of his own medicine.
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Anger and shame are still coming up for me.
When I was abandoned at the age of 4 I thought my mom had left me because I was "bad." Then 1/2 way through the year of her absence, I was taken to a psychiatrist. I knew that he was a psychiatrist. I knew that I was being talked about to him by my aunt and that she was telling him how bad I was because I acted out so much.
That traumatized me and set me up for my greatest fear in life which is that I was and will be rejected because I was crazy.
Labels of disorders have always been painful for me to hear. The label I fear the most is being told that I am crazy.
That little girl, at 4 years old, knew enough to put two and two together and think to herself that the other kids, including my sister, do not have to see a "brain doctor, why do I? It must be because there is something wrong with me." And it was right at the time when I was terrified of my mom ever coming back to me, terrified that I would be diminished from reality because I am crazy or something is wrong with me. That is just too much fear for a little girl of 4 to handle.
Lise
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It is terrifying to be judged, excluded, rejected as "mentally disordered".
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It is, agreed.
Have you ever noticed that the mentally ill banish themselves from society? It is as if because they too were not seen by their parents, not acknowledged or loved enough that their deepest fears, that they will be diminished, will become a reality.
We know that what we fear the most eventually does become a reality. When we can see the fear for what it is and shine the light on the darkness then the fear looses power over us.
But the mentally ill do diminish themselves from reality, in more ways than one.
Lise
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I am thinking that the difference between a "normal " person and the mentally ill person is simply that the mentally ill person thinks that they are abnormal for the SAME things that a normal person thinks is no big deal(selfishness, anger,lust , greed, fear etc)
This is just how I am theorizing it ,now,in my own mind. What do you think? Ami