Shame and anger - why do people make us feel ashamed for our anger?

[Gabben]

Hello Bella, and everyone:

Hi Hermes,

If you are going to post on my thread, please respect my presence here and that I read these posts as well as that I am not an object to be dismissed or ignored.

Your post is a form of passive aggression. If I was to point that out and not point out my own passive aggression in the past as well as even today, I would be a hypocrite. The point is that you have anger and your anger is OK. But how we handle it is not, myself included.

Let me say this. If you feel hurt or slighted or angry - then please be direct and express that. Please know that your behavior is not cool but you are OK -- we are all wounded here and your voice is wanted and cared for here -- And so is mine.


Carolyn - I respect and appreciate your post, thank you.

Lise

[Bella_French]

Hello Bella, and everyone:

Well, it is late and I am off to bed.  Talking about triggers.  I am SO reminded of the way my dear ex-NH used to talk to me, and it is just so delightful as in:


"""Hermes will you please read my thread and stick to the nature of what I am talking to here if you wish to respond -- Assuptions have been made, this thread is in jepardy of being taken over in an attempt to gang up on me.

Please do not come on to my thread, a thread about my pain and hurt about my mom and dad's abandonment and the deep wounds that I am feeling, which was NOT triggered by you and bella, and try to gang up on me with Bella -- that is a limit, please respect it."""

Thank you,
Lise

Best to everyone
Hermes

Sleep Well Hermes, I am sorry you felt hurt, and I would have felt the same way if those words were directed at me. I shared the same perceptions as you on this thread, and found your posts reasonable.  If people want to call `sharing the same perceptions'  something more malignant, let them; they are entitled. I agree with a lot of people and have never had it called it  ganging up or back slapping before. Lol.

I really am sorry for your pain today. And for Gabs too. She's working through a lot of stuff right now, and I know how raw that can feel!

X bella

[Gabben]

"""Hermes will you please read my thread and stick to the nature of what I am talking to here if you wish to respond -- Assumptions have been made, this thread is in jeopardy of being taken over in an attempt to gang up on me.

Please do not come on to my thread, a thread about my pain and hurt about my mom and dad's abandonment and the deep wounds that I am feeling, which was NOT triggered by you and bella, and try to gang up on me with Bella -- that is a limit, please respect it."""


Hi Bella,

Thanks for your post and your views.

This above, what you and Hermes are referring to, is just pure assertiveness...anyone else can read this and see that there is nothing passive, disrespectful and or hurtful here in what I wrote to Hermes. However, I could see how it would be ego deflating.


(((Bella)))
Lise

[Certain Hope]

I just realized something...

I think that there comes a point in healing... in recovery... in maturity and all that's associated with living well in this world...

where our intentions don't mean nearly as much to us as how someone else feels about our interaction with them.

Of course, all of this is only to a point... and each individual will draw the boundary line respective to her/his own comfort limits...
but still, I think it's a valid assessment. Love should be more important than all the but but but I didn't mean thats...

Just my thoughts.

Sleep well, everyone who's going to bed.

Carolyn

[Bella_French]

That is interesting and thoughtful Carolyn, I like your thoughts, especially about love.

My head is a different place, i guess. What I perceive is a case where powerful triggers have led to emotively expressed negative character assumptions about the person whose words were triggering. And that person (people) were annoyed.

 I am so sorry to sound clinical as i say this- my mind does this. I perhaps sound cold? But I see the conversation this way- in a  structural way.

I have good feelings towards everyone involved.

Love to you all

X bella





 

[Certain Hope]

Hi, Bella,

My head goes that direction, too... and I see pretty much the same chain of events, as you've described.
I like the way you think!

Not so long ago, I wouldn't have been able to have such insight, though... because I had made such a habit of privately assessing peoples' inner motivations, chalking that up to discernment, when it was mostly based in fear.

After reading your post to Hermes, I was concerned that you might have been offended by my reference to perceived back patting on this thread. I'm quite sure that I made myself clear - that back-patting and ganging up was not my own perception.
However, what's important is not so much my intention or clarity, but rather another's perception of what I meant... so I really do hope you know that my intention was not to accuse you of ganging up against anyone.

I think it's great to take a clinical approach to these matters and to be able to walk away with good feelings toward everyone involved. I also think it's great to stretch the imagination to include consideration for those who maybe are unable to take such a clinical approach, due to... whatever. On my more hormonal days, I'd be hard pressed to maintain such level-headedness... so I can sure relate! One person telling me how ridiculous I am is more than enough at such times... and usually, that person is me, myself.

Anyhow, all is well.

Love to you,
Carolyn

[Bella_French]

I get what you mean Carolyn, and I agree ina round about way, about being kind.

When it comes to my own triggers, I realize that theres a point where people who love me would feel boxed in and overly-restricted in catering to preventing my pain. I desperately fear abandonment, so what are they to do? Never express a bad mood?  Never do anything independently of me, never disagree? No human can do that without forfeiting their emotional health and freedom. So at a certain point, I have to live with my own pain, and work out how to sooth myself, and struggle to interpret actions in the present accurately. Boy its hard, but I'm much,much better at it.  If i do not do this, I would continue the cycle of abuse, justifying anger and retaliation by attributing blame to anyone who triggers my fear of abandonment. They are not accountable, unless they are do it deliberately and with the intention to cause me harm. I've only met one person in my entire life who is that cruel, and he was a psychopath. But such people are rare. Most people are just people, stumbling along.

 Hermes and I both expressed that we felt `too boxed in', as I read it.  The disagreements were so small and the relatiation so big in relation to that, that we felt `boxed in'.  Theres was no room to have a voice, even a mildly dissenting one, as I experienced things. 

This situation has occurred many times on the forums, and it so rarely resolved. I suppose thats why I've stuck with the topic this time. I would be nice to be heard, but perhaps i don't communicate that well, or not kindly enough., or just think differently about tings.

Thanks for lsitening anyway.

X bella

[Gaining Strength]

I'm not sure why I am entering in here but I am waffling about whether to speak or keep silent and speaking seems to have won out.  I really hate to see the bickering here on the board.  I have said this before but I am going to say it again.  For the most part, those of us here on this board have deep wounds.  Our wounds can be easily triggered by people other than those who wounded us first but suddenly, unconsciously we are back in that original wounding and no longer impotent, now we lash out.  We lash out as though lashing out is going to somehow miraculously resolve our original wound.  It never does.


I am not taking sides though I don't think everyone will see it that way.  However, I think that this thread was begun so that one person could work out a personal struggle.  When others had a beef with this person I really think they can start another thread to work out their beef just as this thread's originator chose to do rather than hijacking the thread that prompted this one.

We are all wounded and in our woundedness we can become quite reactive.  I hate to see it.  I hate it for all of us.

[Bella_French]

It may have happened that way, Kelly, if the `lashing out' had not extended over to this thread too, on the very first post. I'm not saying its right or wrong, but people do tend to feel hurt and react when they are abused verbally, accused falsely, or otherwise `lashed out' upon.

I think the bigger issue that those of us with wounds need to be responsible for them, so as not to become abusers ourselves.

Bella

[Hermes]

Agreed, Bella. Thank you for saying that, about being responsible for wounds, and not lashing out or accusing someone falsely.  And I had no beef, nor do I have any beef with anyone.  I was attacked for no reason, and I am SO reminded of the times back in N=land when that happens.

All the best
Hermes

[Ami]

I know that,on the board, I have been on EVERY side of conflict. The board is like life, in this respect. Using our voice to assert ourselves is s/thing we could not do in our FOO. We could not express anger . We would have been hurt,in some way.
 The purpose of the board is to find our voice. It is not all"nicey-nice". That is our problem, many times. We are too nice.
 When conflict arises, it is not "bad". It is really an opportunity to develop our true voice. I think that all "sides' of the conflict can learn.
  I don't  see conflict as "bad" . Maybe, I am wrong.
  I think that we are afraid of our anger, and b/c of this our anger hurts us. We repress it or use it too much. Either way, it is not in balance.
 Every lesson I have learned on the board has helped me in life.
 I don't see conflict, on a thread, as anyone's faliure. It is just part of life, which we did not learn at the right time, so we are learning it ,now.We are bound to work out our FOO issues with each other. How could we not? To me, the people who want "nicey -nice" all the time will remain sick b/c it is not "real". Part of our original problem(IMO) is wanting perfection from ourselves and our environment.Certain board members seem to get indignant about "conflicts". Well, tell me a conflict free zone in life? Where is it? We have to find our voice in conflict-----not run. That is my opinion. I could be wrong.  Compost what does not fit.                 Love   Ami
 
 

 

[Hermes]

Dear Ami:

That is a truly sensible point of view.  And you are quite right.  The world is not a cosy, conflict-free zone, where fairy-tales comes true.    Wanting perfection is a futile exercise.  We try to be the best we can, and IMO that is great.  Only the NPD want "perfection", and part of their unreal inner world is the inability they have to close the "gap" (as it is called) between the world the way it is (warts and all) and the way they would wish it to be. 

That said, I cannot understand why words like "conflict" have to be applied to a mere robust exchange of views.  Nor is standing up for oneself "conflict".  Applying words like "conflict" only ratchet up the idea of some kind of war, when there was none there. 

All the best to everyone today.
Hermes

[Certain Hope]

Dear Bella,

Just want you to know that I do hear you. I think you're a very good communicator... but I also know that I'm willing and able to participate in fearless communication with you because I, personally, consider you a safe person.

So I guess what I'm learning from all this is that whether or not another is a safe person is often in the eye of the beholder.
Thanks for talking.

Love to you,
Carolyn

[Ami]

Yes, Hermes, we could use other words like assertiveness or finding and having your voice. It is all the same(IMO). "Conflict "denotes s/thing bad and I really see learning to be assertive as "good",not "bad".
  It can and does hurt to get there(being assertive). We have growing pains ,as we get there. We can be too passive or too aggressive, as we take steps to find our balanced voice.
  The use of the word 'conflict "may suggest that it is a "bad' process, but I see it as good, so maybe I should have used another word or words ,like" steps to being assertive"(lol)        Love   Ami

[Hermes]

Dear Ami:

Again, you are so right.  BTW I was not referring to you mentioning the word "conflict" LOL

Hugs
Hermes