Shame and anger - why do people make us feel ashamed for our anger?

[Certain Hope]

Hi, Hermes,

I absolutely agree with you about the use of the term "conflict"... but thought that was just me and my semantics, lol.

About this, you wrote:

Only the NPD want "perfection", and part of their unreal inner world is the inability they have to close the "gap" (as it is called) between the world the way it is (warts and all) and the way they would wish it to be. 

Would you be interested in doing a thread on that topic? I'd like to understand more about this business of closing the gap... and I'm questioning whether it's really only NPD who has issues in that area.

Thanks! Hope you're having a great day!

Carolyn

[Hermes]

Hello Carolyn:

Thanks for your post.  Well, shall we say I am having a reasonable day LOL. 

In my work I deal a fair bit with people, and exchanges can at times be quite robust.  And that is fine. 

As for "the gap", it is a permanent state of mind for the NPD, that not being able to bridge that gap, indeed it is said to be at the core of their disorder.
The rest of us do, from time to time, wish the world were perfect, utopia.  Difference is that we can see and accept that it isn"t.  The NPD cannot.

All the best to you too
Hermes

[Bella_French]

Dear Bella,

Just want you to know that I do hear you. I think you're a very good communicator... but I also know that I'm willing and able to participate in fearless communication with you because I, personally, consider you a safe person.

So I guess what I'm learning from all this is that whether or not another is a safe person is often in the eye of the beholder.
Thanks for talking.

Love to you,
Carolyn

Dear Carolyn,

 `Safety' is possibly subjective, yes I agree. But by your definitions, I'd say the only people who would feel unsafe around safe people are abusive people or people protecting a lie. I think safe people can make unsafe people feel very, very bad by way of their honesty and unwillingness to accept abuse.

A safe person would  believe that sharing slightly dfferent viewpoints (or vastly different ones!) is natural and healthy. An unsafe person responds to alternative viewpoints, even slight differences in opinion, with aggression, attempts to control and limit that person's voice through intimidation and other means, crazy-making, name-calling,  character assassinations. Many of us have encountered N's or N-like people and know how that feels.

X Bella







 

[Certain Hope]

Dear Carolyn,

 `Safety' is possibly subjective, yes I agree. But by your definitions, I'd say the only people who would feel unsafe around safe people are abusive people or people protecting a lie. I think safe people can make unsafe people feel very, very bad by way of their honesty and unwillingness to accept abuse.

A safe person would  believe that sharing slightly dfferent viewpoints (or vastly different ones!) is natural and healthy. An unsafe person responds to alternative viewpoints, even slight differences in opinion, with aggression, attempts to control and limit that person's voice through intimidation and other means, crazy-making, name-calling,  character assassinations. Many of us have encountered N's or N-like people and know how that feels.

X Bella
 

Hi, Bella,

I think that a person whose trust has been shattered by abuse, or (as I'm learning through my reading of Safe People) a person whose development was damaged due to lack of bonding, proper boundary development, etc. - - people like that might also not be able to tell who's safe and who's not.  The problem may not be that they're abusive themselves or that they're trying to protect a lie, but simply that they don't know how to interpret what a genuinely "safe" person is honestly expressing. To them, it may feel like an attack... at least, at first blush, it may feel like that.

Anyhow, I can see that those who have been wounded may need to receive extra encouragement and calm reassurance. I'd rather have someone say, "Hey, I feel like you're attacking me and I don't like it!" than to simply assume something negative about my motivations and run with that false presumption.

Bella, I know I may be missing the mark here by a mile and I don't mean in any way to diminish what you've expressed. This is just where I am at this point, based on my own experiences. People who've never had proper instruction re: developmental issues like healthy boundaries and bonding are really not safe in and of themselves, imo. That doesn't mean they're lying or abusers... although some may indeed be such.

Love,
Carolyn

[Gabben]

Hi Bella,



There is some stuff that came up for me this morning, pain and insights which relate to my thread here, which I wanted to bring to this thread but I do not feel safe enough with your last post Bella because I feel that it passively relates to our exchanges in the past. However I could be wrong.

The point is that I want to get back the original topic of this thread.

Would you mind if you I ask for you post in another thread that relates to that subject you are taking about and is respectful of the person that created the thread, me?

Perhaps the "safe people" thread because it seems to relate to that subject.

Thank you Bella in advance for your understanding.
with love,
Lise

[Gabben]

I know that,on the board, I have been on EVERY side of conflict. The board is like life, in this respect. Using our voice to assert ourselves is s/thing we could not do in our FOO. We could not express anger . We would have been hurt,in some way.
 The purpose of the board is to find our voice. It is not all"nicey-nice". That is our problem, many times. We are too nice.
 When conflict arises, it is not "bad". It is really an opportunity to develop our true voice. I think that all "sides' of the conflict can learn.
  I don't  see conflict as "bad" . Maybe, I am wrong.
  I think that we are afraid of our anger, and b/c of this our anger hurts us. We repress it or use it too much. Either way, it is not in balance.
 Every lesson I have learned on the board has helped me in life.
 I don't see conflict, on a thread, as anyone's faliure. It is just part of life, which we did not learn at the right time, so we are learning it ,now.We are bound to work out our FOO issues with each other. How could we not? To me, the people who want "nicey -nice" all the time will remain sick b/c it is not "real". Part of our original problem(IMO) is wanting perfection from ourselves and our environment.Certain board members seem to get indignant about "conflicts". Well, tell me a conflict free zone in life? Where is it? We have to find our voice in conflict-----not run. That is my opinion. I could be wrong.  Compost what does not fit.                 Love   Ami
 
 

 

Thank you for this Ami.

Your support helps me. Conflict is OK.

Lise

[Hermes]

Yes, it is the damned if you do, and damned if you don't scenario.  

We all need encouragement, we all have problems, of one kind or another.  

What we do not need is to be jumped on (that is what the N does), and brought back momentarily to N-planet, where everything one says was wrongly construed, no matter HOW it was said.

In any case, this is all so tiring, and is only going around in circles.  

Hope you are keeping well today, Bella.  I sense this has upset you.  

Hermes

[Ami]

The ONLY thing bad about "conflict" is our fear of it .Instead of dealing with it in an assertive way, our FOO issues of shame ,fear and guilt propel us deal with it inappropropriately,(either too aggressively or stuffing it). Then, what might have been a little nothing thing can blow up. That seems to make sense to me ,Lise.        Love   Ami     

[Bella_French]

I am all for the thread getting on topic Lise; I wish it would. I cannot guarantee that I will limit my voice here if I am addressed personally, falsely accused or insulted unfairly. But I would really like to address what is being said about me, and addressing that in the place where those accusations are being hurled around makes the most sense.

Carolyn,

Out of respect for Gabben, I would like to continue this conversation on another thread, if that ok with you?

Bella

[Gabben]

That doesn't mean they're lying or abusers... although some may indeed be such.

Love,
Carolyn

This was helpful for me since I tend to make myself feel so ashamed for having a different views and needing to express it.

Also, one of my patterns is that when I feel angry people often accuse me of abuse; in the past and now, when I have been assertive and stood up for myself, people often stay that I am mean.

I was taught that we either steer people to God or away from God. Not speaking our individual truth of how we feel and what want in relation to others behavior is steering people away from God. If someone steps on my toes my natural inclination is to retaliate, ouch that hurt, but of course to grow and mature is to become less reactionary and to restrain from lashing out. Even the best of us has angst and will need to express it from time to time.

Anger is good - God given and can be a powerful tool if used properly. There is nothing wrong with Challenging our loved ones and friends.

Carolyn -- even though you are not responding to the topic I sense, when reading you post, that you are aware of my reading this thread and my presence, thank you -- Lise

[Certain Hope]

Hi, Bella,

If you would like to continue discussions about this, I'm willing to try... on the Safe People thread is fine with me, or elsewhere, as you feel is appropriate. I do think that it's so much better to talk it out... well, ideally, to talk it through... but out is better than stuffed in.

Lise,

Once again, I'm glad for you that you spoke up about where you'd like this thread to go now.
I hear you being accepting of Bella's potential desire to continue talking and not trying to berate her or shame her for that, and I think that's a very right and mature approach... all the way around.
It's so important to be able to ask for what we need! That is something I've never been able to do, but I'm learning.
Thank you.

Love to you both,
Carolyn

P.S.  Lise, with interruptions here, I just now saw your last post to me and will be back... hugs.

[Gabben]

Yes, it is the damned if you do, and damned if you don't scenario.  

We all need encouragement, we all have problems, of one kind or another.  

What we do not need is to be jumped on (that is what the N does), and brought back momentarily to N-planet, where everything one says was wrongly construed, no matter HOW it was said.

In any case, this is all so tiring, and is only going around in circles.  

Hope you are keeping well today, Bella.  I sense this has upset you.  

Hermes

Hermes - your post is extremely disrespectful of me, hurtful, passive and accusatory of me being an N - would you like me to accuse you of being an N?

Would you like to be treated the way you are treating me, like an object?

This post of yours is passive aggression, hurtful, dishonest, mean, disrespectful of me.

Please show me one line that I have written anywhere on the board that has been disrespectful to you and as hurtful as what you write above?

Please stay off my thread and if you do not I will flag your posts and ask Dr. G to delete them.

Lise

[Gabben]

Heremes,

That is not a threat, that is limit and a promise.

Lise

[Hermes]

Feel free, Gabben, feel free.

Or: "anything you say". 

Hermes

[Certain Hope]

Dear Lise,
..
Thank you for giving me the benefit of the doubt. Yes, I am aware of your presence, and I respect your presence, not only because this is your thread, which you initiated.... although that is a fact which is definitely worthy of serious consideration, I think!... but also because the discussions have directly involved you.

I wouldn't like it if people talked around me on a thread where I was really trying to work through some issues. On the other hand, I've watched plenty of issues fly by on the Safe People thread and not been too distracted...  okay, maybe a bit distracted... but mostly, I don't ever want anyone to feel like I'm talking around or over them... because that feels minimizing, to me. Dismissing.
Being treated as though you're invisible is no fun.

Lise, I need to avoid some of my own old, engrained, bad habits here, too. One of those is judging people with whom I disagree.
Therefore, I am working really hard to attach no judgment to those here whose perspectives differ from my own... and... also... I think I'd be doing disrespect to you, as though you can't stand up for your own self?!... if I chimed in every time I agree/disagree with this one or that one.

Umm... feel free to ask me to hush any time. Sometimes I need it... and if I don't think I do need it, I'll say so, but not before giving the request due consideration.

Smiling now.

Love to you,
Carolyn