Voicelessness and Emotional Survival Message Board
Voicelessness and Emotional Survival => Voicelessness and Emotional Survival Message Board => Topic started by: Gabben on February 07, 2008, 12:14:54 PM
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Last night I was at My therapists office, my good therapist, who I have been working with for 2 1/2 years.
At the end of my session my therapist told me that she had been in contact with my old therapist, the N saint. She said that N saint had called the diocese seeking my current therapist's number to see if N saint could meet with my current T to discuss her ministry (N saints), asking my current T for her help.
My current therapist told me that the first thing out of N saint's mouth to her was: "you know, I have a detractor?" My current therapist knows the entire story of what happened between N saint and I. She quickly put two and two together and told N saint "no, she is my client" and with a silent, gentle hand gesture, waved her off from speaking more about me.
N saint omitted to my current therapist the fact that she KNEW that she knew she was my current therapist, making it convenient to avoid the issue of ethics, it was her way of trying to sidestep the issue so that she could get in with my T and get her against me, just like she did to my old spiritual director, sabotaging my two year relationship with him.
My therapist confirmed for me that N saint has been slandering me to my fellow ministry workers and is trying to sneak her way into my ministry.
What do you do when the N in your life is trying to slander you to everyone making you out to be the N?
This is crazy making stuff -- thank heavens for my therapist, for my ability to know myself and for my lack of attachment to the opinions of others.
Her slander of me explains why so many people have been cold and standoffish to me in recent months.
I'm not sure what to do accept just keep doing the anonymous work of helping others, turn the situation over to God, seeking people who are out of state and removed from the situation, that work in my ministry, who support me and will pray for the best outcome of the situation.
I tell myself that it is not about me winning with her, it is about forgiving her, blessing her over and over again in my heart until I can actually feel compassion for her -- let her have all that is mine, God will provide, she must be more wounded than me, therefore she must need more.
However, I'm still hurt and angry. I awoke up this morning with an ache and hurt in my heart, telling myself that the hits just keep coming.
How do I defend myself or do I just sit back and watch her take my reputation and friends? What does the bible say about slander and how to handle it?
One thing I know for sure, she cannot and will not poisen my current therapist against me, my current therapist loves me and said last night "you are one of the best people I know." She assured me over and over again, not that she had too, because I already know that N saint will not damage our current work together.
Lise
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Lise
I am so sorry about this. N's are the gifts that keep on giving(pain)
You have to hold on to who YOU are---God's child, beloved,loved for who you are inside, where no person can touch. That is what I think of when I feel desperate..
Lise, this lady will reap what she sows. It will happen.
I am so sorry, Lise and I am here to help ,in any way that I can. Love You,Lise, Ami
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Hi Ami -
Thanks.
ugh...I feel like I have been kicked in the stomach. Do you know that I have not spoken to anyone about her? Zero.
I have not slandered to anyone, ever. The only person that knows is my T and this board. That is why I came to this board because I needed to talk about her and express the pain without slandering her and talking about it to others with whom we both know.
But my therapist? I mean come on....I have a right to talk to my therapist about anyone and especially the N saint. This last summer when my pain of my abandonment was surfacing, again, N saint rejected me, refused to return my calls and emails -- slandered me to my spiritual director "as intense." I needed therapy after that.
She plays the victim. She acts blameless. My T saw that in her. She confirmed her emotional shallowness and confirmed for me how unwell she is. That is the good news, confirmation, at last!
What amazes me is that the N projects that others are slandering them....because that is exactly what they are afraid of, slander, because they do it to others they can't see that the rest of the world does not always operate out of fear, some of us actually have real faith, like me!
Lise
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Lise,
I don't know if this will help ,or not. Our worst fear is being rejected after we have shown our "soft underbelly" to s/one(a therapist is the worse). If you could use these feelings as a way to try to heal deep pain,as I did on the janet thread,you might transform dirt in to gold.
I am sure that you already thought of this or are doing ,it.YOU taught ME ,for goodness sakes(lol)
However, s/times when we are in pain ,we forget our best advice. Compost,please, if I am way off base, which I might be.
Love Ami
(((((((((Lise)))))))))
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Hi Ami,
Thanks, yes, that is exactly what happenend --- her rejection triggered the FOO stuff and that is exactly what 90% of my pain is about, thanks.
However, I am still rehashing the new hurt. The deep hurt of feeling that N saint had no regard or respect for my relationship with my therapist, zero. She violated sacred ground as far as I am concerned. To breech ethics, try to even discuss a patient with a therapist is just wrong. But then to do it under the guise of pretending that they don't know you are the client and without acknowledgment of the relationship and how much I need my T....JUST WRONG.
I have never spoken of her...not even hints, nothing.
I feel unsafe -- Is she going to try to get to my new spiritual director? I just need to keep getting expressing the hurt and anger of it until I am done with the hashing.
Lise
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Dear Lise,
That was a really underhanded and dirty trick she pulled! There really is no telling what sort of manipulative crud NPD will pull.
One thing tho... at least it is quite obvious (at least to me, it seems so) that this was no coincidence, but rather a calculated move on her part.
I am sorry you have to deal with this now, atop everything else, Lise. I know how much you were looking forward to a helpful session last night... but maybe this is all just in exactly the right timing? Right off the bat I see one really good thing coming of it... at least your good therapist has now had a personal encounter with this vixen and I bet she'll be able to lay some good bricks of new knowledge and healing on that basis. I like that picture, anyway... fresh bricks getting mortared together, forming a solid structure against which no more NoNseNse can prevail.
Love to you,
Carolyn
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Hi Carolyn,
Exactly --- her maneuver WAS calculated, that's what was so mind boggling to me. It is like a thriller movie when the aggressor is so cunningly covert, she sneaks into my life via my therapist under the guise of service.
I had to speak with my therapist again today, in tears, wondering to myself, am I safe anywhere. Who else will she contact.
It is like she is targeting me, underhandedly, to get me out of her way or because she is so deeply envious that she is stealing my reputation, my charity work and even trying to steal my support systems.
My T confirmed for me that she is only a LSW not a MFCC, which I already knew. But T said that the reason that she did not go for her MFCC is because you have to log on over 3000 hours of counseling training and for a N that is too much transparency or potential risky exposure.
So I did something today -- I emailed N saint, calling her on her slander of me because now I have a witness who agrees that that is exactly what she was doing. She is tripping herself up.
Here is what the bible says on slander:
Jesus knew the anguish we can inflict on each other.
One day when He was alone with His disciples, He
warned them against offending others (Mt. 18:6–10).
Yet He acknowledged that offenses will come (v. 7) and
went on to instruct them in how to deal with them.
If your brother sins against you, go and show him his
fault, just between the two of you. If he listens to
you, you have won your brother over. But if he will
not listen, take one or two others along, so that
every matter may be established by the testimony of
two or three witnesses.' If he refuses to listen to
them, tell it to the church; and if he refuses to
listen even to the church, treat him as you would a
pagan or a tax collector.
—Mt. 18:15–17
I told her to call me and to set up a time to mediate with my therapist or someone else but that we need to come together and resolve our issues, peacefully.
I also told her if that she did not respond to me that I would take Christ's advice.
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Detraction: is the unjust damaging of another's good name by the revelation of some fault or crime of which that other is really guilty or at any rate is seriously believed to be guilty by the defamer.
OK -- So N saint's words to my T were:
"I have a detractor."
Just think about that.
Is that not one of the most twisted forms of slander?
Basically she IS speaking of me in an attempts to damage my reputation by revealing my alleged untrue fault of speaking against her.
It is mind boggling and so unbelievable -- ARE N'S REALLY THIS TWISTED?
Lise
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Dear Lise,
I do believe that is exactly how to proceed... all the while practicing Proverbs 3:5-6 and leaving the outcome in the hands of the Lord Jesus.
The "I have a detractor" instead of "I do not always communicate successfully or effectively practice as a counselor
(i.e.: " I am not perfect and I made a mess of this one! " ).... well... that says it all, to me, Lise.
But as in all things, the entire universe revolves around her. None of it, not a bit, was ever, ever about you.
I'm so sorry this goes on... but I do believe that you are about to put a stop to its ability to cause you so much pain!
Love,
Carolyn
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Dear Lise,
It is good that you are being pro-active, rather than just reactive. What you did sounds very good,Lise. That was good thinking,on your part.
Love to You, Ami
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Lise,
After my gut reaction began to settle, I realized...
Do you suppose this N Saint person was primarily concerned with finding out what you'd shared about her with your current T?
Like she was on a fishing expedition?
That is still so very unethical, wrong, nosy, improper, etc. etc....
but maybe it's a better picture and easier to tolerate than the idea that she's on a mission to slander you?
I mean, self-protection is always N's primary concern, right? And your current T does not sound like someone who will be easily messed with :D (That is such a happy thought!!)
I dunno, often I figure that the truest picture of reality is somewhere in between my own initial hyper-response (cuz I do have those :x) and a total dismissal of suspicions, if that makes any sense. And please forgive me if this is non-edifying, unhelpful babbling, Lise. I just started to feel like I'd jumped the gun here and maybe put some of my own gunk into your picture, after the day I had.
Love,
Carolyn
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Wow Carolyn,
You must be in tune with the Holy Spirit! That thought just came to me this afternoon too.
I was thinking that it is not so much her seeking to target me as it is her protecting her interests. She just recently started a new ministry which is work that I do, work she is fairly new to. She has been in contact with several people I work with in ministry and I think that she projects that since I do not like her that I must be slandering her to people. Therefore, she gets in there first and tries to manipulate in order to control the situation. Unlike me, as you can see, I tend to be super direct -- I confront things head on. She is a very frightened person and has to manipulate.
My T thinks that it was a combination - double motives -- as you say, seeking to find out what my T knows and seeking to gain some sympathy, if she could.
I think she was calculated in her contacting my T just like she was calculating in her contacting my old spiritual director, the priest, first before I would meet with him.
She is way to busy or preoccupied with self to have personal vendetta against me and actually be strategizing how to win, correct?
Although, I used to see her emulate me and my style. I have long hair. Once, after not seeing each other for a really long time, we ran into each other, her hair had grown long -- she made a point to play with it with a sort of look and passive gesture as if to say "I have long hair like yours now." It was creepy too the way she did it.
So, I know envy is a factor for her. My T said there is no reason for her to be shunning me because I am such a warm, good and honest. She agreed that her shunning is part revenge and part a wall of envy.
Lise
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Dear Lise,
Your therapist sounds like she can be trusted. The N's are very envious. It is very creepy about the N saint therapist--very creepy. You DO get a feeling of being in a horror movie ,with no place to run, when you are dealing with an N.
I used to relate to charcters in horror movies, such as Rosemary in 'Rosemary's Baby". She tried to get away and just when she thought she was safe,she was face to face with another enemy.
I think that you will rise above this ,Lise. I do. Love, Ami
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The "I have a detractor" instead of "I do not always communicate successfully or effectively practice as a counselor
(i.e.: " I am not perfect and I made a mess of this one! " ).... well... that says it all, to me, Lise.
But as in all things, the entire universe revolves around her. None of it, not a bit, was ever, ever about you.
I'm so sorry this goes on... but I do believe that you are about to put a stop to its ability to cause you so much pain!
This was great, so validating. She cannot even look at herself, she projects the ultimate image of saintly perfection, she woulld never admit to any fault which is such toxic behavior.
Lise
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Rosemary's Baby! I'm going to watch that this weekend -- I have never seen it, a good old fashioned horror film sounds good!
Lise
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I dunno, often I figure that the truest picture of reality is somewhere in between my own initial hyper-response (cuz I do have those :x) and a total dismissal of suspicions, if that makes any sense.
I love this line Carolyn! This makes great sense -- me too. I just spoke with my spiritual director. He suggested that I do not do anything. He said the more energy that I give it the more energy I am giving to evil. He said you can't or you do not fight with evil, instead you have to seek to love our enimies with our whole hearts. This is a lesson that I think God has given me about 2000 times in my life. I think I am going to try to get this one right this time :D
He told me to focus on the hurt and find ways to talk about it and just keep talking about -- no seeking relief or revenge -- not allowed.
Another lesson from God and another day of just hurting....I feel like Dorothy -- "there is no place like home, there is no place like home, there is no place like home...."
Much thanks and love to you.
Lise
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Great article on manipulation -- N saint inspired me to look this info up.
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Manipulation
The way narcissists (and psychopaths) interact with others makes them extremely potent manipulators. How potent? So potent that their powers of manipulation are spooky and seem downright magical.
How does the way they interact with others make them such expert manipulators? Because practice makes perfect, and they have been practicing the art of manipulation in every interaction since birth.
Indeed, in playing to the mirror of your face, that's what they're doing, isn't it? Manipulating you. Everything they say and do is entirely for effect, to get the reaction they want from you. That IS manipulation.
They're regulating, manipulating your reactions. But you aren't like them. Your reactions come from within. So, what are they ultimately regulating and manipulating? Your thoughts. Manipulation is mind control.
Manipulation is a subtle thing. So subtle that we are usually unaware of being manipulated, unless the manipulator blows it and breaks the spell. So, manipulators are putting thoughts into our heads that we think are ours. A very dangerous thing.
Since a narcissist isn't acting on normal human premises, since all he is doing is playing you for the reaction he wants, truth is irrelevant. Truth or lies — it's all the same to him. Whichever works. Usually that's lies.
It would be more correct to say that there is no such thing as truth to a narcissist. Because there is no such thing as truth when playing Pretend. That's why narcissists and psychopaths beat lie detector tests. (In fact, so do many people from "shame" cultures where lying to save face of oneself, one's family, one's tribe, and one's religion is considered morally necessary and expected.)
Psychopaths are known to get so good at manipulating people that, by the time they're teenagers, they routinely fool and manipulate mental healthcare professionals, judges, prison officials, parole boards, and social workers who know they are psychopaths, are on the lookout for attempts to manipulate them, and should be immune to manipulation.
It isn't a matter of intelligence: it's a matter of practice, experience. This is because most of what transpires in interaction happens too quickly to think it through.
In playing to the mirror of your face, the narcissist receives a steady stream of your feedback to the steady stream of words and body language he sends. He continuously reacts to every nuance of it in "real time," if you will. A sideways glance from you might make him alter his choice for the next word in the sentence he is saying. Or his facial expression or tone of voice. Or it might make him take a step closer to you.
So, no matter how cunning a manipulator is, he isn't consciously analyzing your every slight reaction and fine-tuning his act to it. I say that because he can't be. That would be impossible, because no one could think that fast.
He must be relying on a lifetime of experience at this game, reacting habitually in certain ways to certain things he observes in you on the fly. In other words, this manipulation must be rather like the act of hitting a forehand in tennis.
You cannot consciously think your way through the stroke. Too many things are happening too fast. In fact, you will botch your stroke and be lucky to even connect with the ball if you try to consciously think your way through with "Watch the ball ... bend your knees ... keep your arm straight ... keep your head still ... step into the shot ... et ad infinitum." Well, that's exaggerating a bit, because there are only about 100 instructions I could list for hitting a forehand ;-)
You can't think that fast. No one can. So, you must practice that stroke enough under varying conditions to program the unconscious centers of the brain to execute it virtually automatically. When you net your shot or hit it out (provided you note how far off the shot was), your "program" is revised to get the bug out.
This phenomenon is called Natural Learning. It's how we learn to walk and talk.
That "program" isn't just a fixed set of muscle commands from the brain. It's an interactive program like a computer program. Because no two forehands are the same. Yet the more you practice, the better your forehand program, and the more effectively it faithfully produces a good forehand under widely varying conditions. You have only to make the major decisions, such as where and how to hit the ball: speed, spin, and placement. But Natural Learning is so powerful that even tactical decisions become virtually automatic in advanced players. Hence the best players in the world do very little conscious thinking while the ball's in play.
The power of Natural Learning is also illustrated by comparing experienced drivers with young drivers. Young drivers have no experience, so they must think their way through problems. Result? Crash. But with the same problem an experienced driver has no problem. He or she spontaneously makes an intuitive, instinctive move faster than the speed of thought. Result? No crash.
When playing to the mirror of your face, that must be what a narcissist is mostly doing — relying on a lifetime of experience that allows him to react instinctively to every bit of feedback he gets from you. That's how he fine-tunes your reactions into the feedback he wants. Rather like turning the knobs on a short-wave radio.
This is manipulation. And it's occurring faster than the speed of thought, because a narcissist has had so much constant practice at drawing the look he wants that most of his "moves" are virtually automatic.
This is why, I think, narcissists seem like machines with their knee-jerk reactions to things. But those reactions aren't knee-jerk reflexes: they are learned through experience to the point that they become habitual as second nature.
This is also why, I think, we tend to overestimate the intelligence of narcissists, psychopaths, con artists, and other manipulators like dictators who con their way to power. We think they must be brilliant to be so manipulative. But even a stupid narcissist I knew was extremely manipulative. Their skill is the fruit of constant practice at manipulation in every human interaction.
But it doesn't pay to underestimate them, either. That same practice makes them extremely observant and perceptive. Over time that will improve their intelligence, at least some aspects of it.
In fact, they are much more observant and perceptive than they seem. That's because all they're interested in is what they can use. So, though they block out much, what they do choose to see, they see very well. They are interested in your reactions, not you. So, they probably are more aware of how you react to things than you are. But the only information about you they're interested in is what that can use to exploit you. The rest they filter out of consciousness = forget.
So, never think that you are too smart to be manipulated by a narcissist, psychopath, or con artist. You aren't. And you surely can never beat one at his own game.
That's nothing to be ashamed of. It just means that you are an innocent who hasn't spent his or her whole life practicing the black art. So, you won't win that game.
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She has been in contact with several people I work with in ministry and I think that she projects that since I do not like her that I must be slandering her to people. Therefore, she gets in there first and tries to manipulate in order to control the situation. Unlike me, as you can see, I tend to be super direct -- I confront things head on. She is a very frightened person and has to manipulate.
This makes sense to me, Lise, yes. And with N, it's not even about whether we "like" them, is it? I mean, the only thing acceptable to N is absolute adoration, in every sense. Total agreement and submission, falling in step and throwing in the occasional toe-smootch, for good measure :P You know?
I have become the instant enemy of the N'ish in my own life, simply by enforcing healthy boundaries of separation between them and me - - (not to mention distinguishing between them and God! - aka, not worshipping them). So... you beg to differ = you become viewed as public enemy #1. N believes that everyone thinks and acts as she does, so she expects you to attack her in some way, I imagine... and so she makes a pre-emptive strike?
She is way to busy or preoccupied with self to have personal vendetta against me and actually be strategizing how to win, correct?
I think so, Lise. N's don't seem to be able to see long-range enough to strategize. That's why it's so easy to catch one with foot in mouth, because they're driven by impulse and live only in the moment. At least that was my experience with ex. Also, N always sees herself as winner... that's an absolute, matter of fact, and can be no other way. She fully expects everyone to knuckle under before her magnificence, so... I doubt whether she's too concerned (although she may be more so now that she's met your T!)
Although, I used to see her emulate me and my style. I have long hair. Once, after not seeing each other for a really long time, we ran into each other, her hair had grown long -- she made a point to play with it with a sort of look and passive gesture as if to say "I have long hair like yours now." It was creepy too the way she did it.
So, I know envy is a factor for her. My T said there is no reason for her to be shunning me because I am such a warm, good and honest. She agreed that her shunning is part revenge and part a wall of envy.[/quote]
Yeah... I know that look... very, intensely creepy. Lise, that envy is so odd... I've been done this way, and there's no experience just like it.
You see, to me, it's not even that she's emulating you... more like the invasion of the body snatchers :?.
It's not even that she wants to be you, but more like she thinks that she IS you... and so when YOU are you, then you're the wrong/bad/disturbed one and she sees you as stealing something from her! It's this bizarre sort of envy/mirroring/projection all rolled into one and it's so hard to describe and sounds nutty, but maybe you'll see what I mean. That is the sort of eNvy I got from npd ex and have also experienced in milder forms on 2 other occasions, from females.
So you see... I don't think it's even shunning (as in ignoring), it's more like she cannot allow herself to see you as yourself, or else she will cease to exist. Remember those old sci fi movies (and one from the Twilight Zone, as I recall) where individuals had a double in a parallel universe?
Yeah, like that. And oh, boy, that was what I saw in my ex's eyes as he sharpened his knife. I absolutely must not be allowed to exist. That is how murderous N-eNvy is.
Carolyn
P.S. I am way behind on posts here, because of kp duty, but wanted to put this one thru anyhow.
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This is a great article -- just wanted to share.
Vandalizes Others' Images
Then there is the other side of the coin, which is an even more menacing sign of bad faith — what narcissists do to the images of others. Consumed with pathological envy, they make themselves look good the bogus way, by making others look bad.
They speak well of very few others. Only their narcissistic parent (when no longer vulnerable to that parent) and anyone they can aggrandize themselves by association with at others' expense.
For example, if you don't get along with someone, the narcissist will say, "I get along with him fine." He will have nothing but praise for that person. Likewise, if you got bad service at a restaurant, the narcissist will say, "They gave me excellent service." The narcissist praises the other because it reflects badly on you and well on him.
Similarly, the narcissist with a trophy wife goes around praising her beauty. He's aggrandizing himself by association with her. And at the expense of everyone not good enough to win a trophy wife like his. He'll likewise aggrandize himself by association with some important person he knows, praising that person everywhere he goes to name-drop.
But such special cases are the only ones you hear a good word about from a narcissist. In fact, a narcissist will stubbornly refuse to admit any fault in them at all. They are ideal, perfect in his or her eyes.
But the rest of humanity gets the opposite. Often, narcissists glibly sneak bad ideas about others into your head. They do this by chipping away at that person's image subtly and relentlessly every time they mention him or her. Often perfuming the bad offering to cover up its smell.
An example is the man who never spoke of his wife except when talking about something else and laughing that, "Yeah, and the wife got pretty shook up about it."
That doesn't sound so bad, does it? But often this was pure fiction. More important, is that the way you'd like to hear yourself spoken of? Is that the way you'd talk about someone you want others to like? What type of picture does that paint of her? Is his talk of her tending to make people think well of her and respect her? Does it endear her to them?
That narcissist would have blown a gasket if anyone had ever described him as easily shook up. Yet for forty years he relentlessly chipped away at his wife's image with little vandalizing remarks like that, never saying anything about her that made you tend to like and admire her. Always characterizing her in a way that diminished her.
In fact, this "shook up" thing is almost cultural, used by many men on women. So, ladies, here's a bazooka: Beat him to the punch in saying it — tell him not to get "shook up," and watch the stunned look on his face. He suddenly will see offense in that remark.
However subtle the vandalism may be, you never hear a narcissist say anything about anyone that you would like to hear said about you.
Worse, narcissists are gossips. They eagerly listen to and spread slander. They are self-righteous finger-pointers, pulling the same stunt Lucifer did in the old Gnostic myth about Lucifer coming before God everyday and accusing other angels of being bad. The result was "war in high places" until the good angels, lead by St. Michael the Archangel, cast down Lucifer (now called "Satan," that is, "the slanderer") to the status they deserve.
Narcissists can make it sound like a virtue, but giving others a bad name isn't a good deed. Even if the report is true, it cannot possibly be done in the spirit of goodwill unless it is done in true witness — that is, responsible witness, on the record, not behind the back. Just because the badmouth perfumes his speech with words like love and Christian and concern and for the sake of our children (always the justification when there is no justification) and sports a halo does not change the spirit in which slander is done.
Shakespeare gives us a marvelous example of sugaring o'er slander with false concern or pity in a speech the usurper King Claudius makes to Hamlet before the whole court:
'Tis sweet and commendable in your nature, Hamlet,
To give these mourning duties to your father;
But you must know, your father lost a father;
That father lost, lost his, and the survivor bound
In filial obligation for some term
To do obsequious sorrow. But to persever
In obstinate condolement is a course
Of impious stubbornness. 'Tis unmanly grief;
It shows a will most incorrect to heaven,
A heart unfortified, a mind impatient,
An understanding simple and unschool'd;
For what we know must be, and is as common
As any the most vulgar thing to sense,
Why should we in our peevish opposition
Take it to heart? Fie! 'tis a fault to heaven,
A fault against the dead, a fault to nature,
To reason most absurd, whose common theme
Is death of fathers, and who still hath cried,
From the first corse till he that died to-day,
'This must be so.' We pray you throw to earth
This unprevailing woe, and think of us
As of a father; for let the world take note
You are the most immediate to our throne,
And with no less nobility of love
Than that which dearest father bears his son
Do I impart toward you. For your intent
In going back to school in Wittenberg,
It is most retrograde to our desire;
And we beseech you, bend you to remain
Here in the cheer and comfort of our eye,
Our chiefest courtier, cousin, and our son.
Such kind and pious words, eh? Yet, how would you like that said to you in front of a hundred people? Notice how sweetly and left-handedly Claudius calls Hamlet obsequious, obstinate, impious, stubborn, unmanly, willful, weak, impatient, a simpleton, ignorant, senseless, peevish, a sinner against God and the dead and nature, irrational, impotent, and intent on doing things retrograde to the king's desire. Talk about "betrayal with a kiss."
The whole court immediately starts treating Hamlet as though he's radioactive. His girlfriend's father and brother immediately order her to dump him. He's a marked man.
And for doing what? For not forgetting the dead king, his father, and cutting short the customary mourning period to celebrate the remarriage of the queen to the usurper. Typical narcissist — can make even a virtuous act sound heinous.
If you know that narcissists are inveterate character assassins, it's easy to spot them. A narcissist has a trail of trashed good names and careers in his wake. He will even have told you strange and terrible lies about the people in his own immediate family.
If you know the person he is telling you something strange about, compare the accusation with your own observations. A narcissist will have ignored that person's real faults and smeared one of his or her virtues as a vice! And, if you know the narcissist, you'll find the narcissist himself is guilty of the very thing he's accusing this other person of.
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Lise,
Earlier, you wrote:
"I told her to call me and to set up a time to mediate with my therapist or someone else but that we need to come together and resolve our issues, peacefully.
I also told her if that she did not respond to me that I would take Christ's advice."
I hope it's okay for me to ask... is this still the plan? Or now are you thinking that it would be vengeful somehow to proceed?
Just wondering where your thoughts are going with this...
and also, will you be okay with it if she doesn't respond to you at all?
I feel like she's most likely to respond to your T, and not to you... and, of course, to attempt to twist everything you wrote.
I'm sure you're prepared for that possibility, but it will be difficult not to go through another round of anger and pain if she does that, you know?
Still catching up on the other posts here on the thread, little by little.
Love,
Carolyn
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Hi Carolyn,
Yep -- you nailed it. I am giving up on the mission to resolve things with her, I do feel that it is a form of revenge on my part or at least a relief seeking tactic from the pain on my part. It is better to just hurt and work it out and pray for her.
Agreed -- my gut told me that she will go to my T again to hurt me in the process and perpetuate my pain of treating me like dirt. I'm going to just keep my distance and bless her. Otherwise, it could just turn into a real messy battle that drags my T into it and takes away from what is really important for her and for me to focus on.
God will take her evil of her slander and turn it into a mountain of glory for Him. When Satan separates and divides God just uses it to spread out his territory :)
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Lise, that is awesome.
Technically, I don't think it could be considered vengeful, because it's per the letter, you know? And yet I think that you and I both know that without the Spirit, the letter is death... in other words, it's what's in our heart that counts. Your willingness & ability to see and judge your own heart is amazing and so encouraging to me... very rare, indeed. Only by the Holy Spirit is this possible... and only by the Holy Spirit can ties to our old ways, including genetic curses, be broken, I believe. ooo.. this is cool.
Oh, I am so glad to learn this expression "relief seeking tactic", too... I know exactly what you mean! It's something I've often sensed in myself, as I would go about seeking to fulfill the letter of the law, so to speak, yet couldn't make peace within my spirit about my own actions.
Very difficult waters to tread, but I'm most eager to learn and practice. Thank you!
Thank you, also, for allowing me to reply to your posts with my initial, instinctive reaction and then make modifications as the dust begins to settle... well, just for allowing me to share in the process with you, here, without judging. I don't know whether it's like this for everyone, but this is how I learn... by being allowed to participate and to make mistakes!!
Also, I think it's such a wise decision to make the prayerful, conscious choice to not allow focus to be distracted from the task at hand. Now I can see that - while it may be a good thing that this came about, so that you now have a witness to the NoNseNse, you certainly don't need to allow the saintly N to become the focal point of your future therapy sessions!
You are advancing by leaps and bounds, I'd say, Lise... absolutely fantastic!
Thank you for sharing all of this here... and I agree with you in this powerful statement of truth:
God will take her evil of her slander and turn it into a mountain of glory for Him. When Satan separates and divides God just uses it to spread out his territory :)
God help me to remember that and to stay out of His way when I encounter similar hurdles!
Love,
Carolyn
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As I read this article all I could think was wow -- do they know who N saint is?
Loss of Supply
If they have not discarded you first, sometimes the horror of what you are dealing with comes by chance to light, you have believed their lies and have been so subservient to help them out, you have felt sorry for them, you have treated them with kindness and respect while they have been manipulating you and others all along, it's only when it's too late that you realize the truth, they are evil.
You finally point out you expect them to treat you and others as a human, hoping to see some empathy, to say they are sorry. This doesn't happen with narcissists, they lack empathy, they are unable to put themselves in other people's "shoes", in fact, it usually makes things much worse to confront them about to their abusive behavior, and this is when you truly see the extent of their mental illness.
The narcissist views any criticism as a threat to their false self. They will typically act defensive, aggressive and cold. They will detach emotionally and feel violated. The narcissist can become so enraged at the infliction of injury to his false self that they will attempt to destroy the source of the criticism.
Suddenly alone, they can develop persecutory delusions, having paranoid tendencies, will you tell others? Warn their next supply, causing them even further narcissistic injury? they lose touch with reality and retreat to their own little world where they are either the hero (worshiped) the golden days of gaining new supply who in the beginning adored their charming happy false self or the victim (pitied) when supply has abandoned them and they have lied and manipulated everyone using projection into falsely believing they are the victim.
Unless you can relocate, you will have to cope with the narcissist’s toxic wrath. You found the power to leave but the narcissist is not finished with you. Above all you must be silenced and deleted from his world, just like the victims before you. Narcissists are the masters of lies and manipulations, they will be bolder, will backstab and betray with more intensity. The narcissist feels justified in this behavior, and has no realization of consequences. They have fierce need to regain power and control. They have tunnel vision when you have become their designated enemy for daring confront them about abusing you and others and for finding the strength to leave.
Think back to the beginning, the many people in his past, claiming how he treated them so well yet he always ended up as the "victim" or they were in his life for a briefly when you knew him, yet they were oddly quiet around you, and you sensed they wanted to tell you something and before you could ask them, they were suddenly totally absent from his world. He justified his paranoid behavior as the ones from his past might come back to harm him, you felt so sorry for him. Now because you are confronting him about his lies, manipulations and abusing you and others, now you face his bizarre behavior, he is using "projection" telling everyone HE is the victim. This is how he hid his past abusive behavior and will be using the same tactic manuver again.
Validation comes from the ones deleted from his past; to find out we are all his victims, the passing years have not faded the emotional scars and bitterness of how they were victims, charmed into trusting him and feeling sorry for him, only to be subjected to his lies and cruel manipulations. Now you realize the reason why he is so paranoid, he is the abuser trying keep his past victims deleted from his world - no one must know.
Red Flag
Does it remind you of childhood days? The bully in the playground masquerading as a friend yet tormenting a cheerful good child only when no one else is around, eventually they stand up to the bully asking them to be nice or they will tell.
Then you see how emotionally immature the bully really is. They blurt out "no one will believe you!" and threaten the good child with physical harm. When challenged, a bully can in turn become even more vicious, stooping to unscrupulous methods of retaliation, terrified of being uncovered, they run crying to their mommy, "projecting" themselves as the helpless "victim".
The bully then stands behind their parent, the good child is unjustly lectured. It does not matter if the innocent one tries to say they are in fact the victim, because they know how evil the bully is when no one is around, as they have sadly found out, the bully has resorted to physically abusing others into silence the past.
All the drama the bully created, to threaten and silence his victim, bury the truth, save his false image, gain pity, and attention - a sweet fix of narcissist supply replenished to the bully’s warped ego. Now imagine this bully in adulthood but still having the emotional level of a five year old.
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A couple of quotes:
"They may spread lies about you, but in the long run, the truth will prevail. Others will figure out that what the N says, has no basis, in fact. So carry on, by moving toward something which is a lot healthier, for you. Take it as a very expensive learning experience."
"Don't worry; he didn't pick you because you are weak or an easy target. He picked you because you have all the qualities he wants and can never have."
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Lise,
I just keep thinking:
You are who God says you are and that is soooo enough.
It's the one who will not allow herself to be seen as an imperfect human being who will fall... and fall hard.
Nobody who places herself on a pedestal can maintain such an elevated position.
It's in humbling ourselves that we give God an opportunity to exalt us, according to His promise.
My pastor says, the person who takes God's job and exalts herself forces God to do HER job and humble her.
It'll all come out in the wash.
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((((((((((Lise)))))))))))))) Love, Ami
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Lise, I am sorry this happened to you. I think this item might have a history so I don't really understand it but I do understand that you would feel violated. If you want to tell me the whole story, I will be happy to listen but I suspect you wish it had never raised it's head.
I am thinking of you and all the deep pain you are experiencing.
((((Lise)))
Kim in Oz
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Lise,
I am sorry too.
I recognize so much of this thread. Your post #18 is my brother, and exactly what he's been trying to do in my life.
What's amazing is how exact it is.
Your "Nsaint" is pitiable but like a cobra.
The good news is that she actually has no power.
None whatsoever.
She has wilted in exposure...and bless your T.
I'd just like to say it's important to know that EVEN IF she'd wormed her way into your T's office, she would not have succeeded.
Because you told the truth and kept telling it, in your work with your T.
The one neighbor my brother got to...I never confronted, because I have nothing invested in my relationship to him. But I can't tell you how tempted I was by #18 to print it out and slip it into his mailbox. (No, not going to.)
I guess it's like a support group for cancer survivors. Only those who have also been through it can fully understand. How good it would be if, in the real world, there were 3D support groups for children/partners of Ns.
thanks,
Hops
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The good news is that she actually has no power.
Hi Hops,
Thank you. Your words were comforting and soothing to me. Especially the above. She only has as much power as I give her. My childish magical thinking believes that if she wins or gets my ministry then it will diminish me.
The story of N saint is really the story of my abandonment and the distress I felt as a child when I had to stare the realization that my mom might never come back. Mom was my mirror and without her then I would cease to exist -- N of me, yes, but the difference between me and real N's is that they are acting out their drama on full scale where I am reliving the trauma and working to tell the story of my abandonment wound so that I will not keep acting it out.
Hope that makes sense?
Peace, warmth and joy to your day.
Thanks for reading.
Lise
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Lise, I am sorry this happened to you. I think this item might have a history so I don't really understand it but I do understand that you would feel violated. If you want to tell me the whole story, I will be happy to listen but I suspect you wish it had never raised it's head.
I am thinking of you and all the deep pain you are experiencing.
((((Lise)))
Kim in Oz
Here is the story -- I took this from the first post that I ever put up on the board.
Lise
written November 2007
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A few a years ago I met a woman through a mutual friend. The first time that I saw her, she was praying at a Mass being held at our mutual friends house. I was struck by what seemed to be her exceptionally devote and genuine mannerisms while praying. Initially I can't say I was drawn to her but I was a bit curious, she seemed untouchable and bit aloof as if she would never walk up to someone and introduce herself, she seemed beyond approach.
Over the next several months I would see her at my friends house it was there that she conducted spiritual direction sessions with parishioners and others. Then, one day, our mutual friend gave me a book written by her that was about mystical experiences and Catholicism, I was curious so I read the book but I remained skeptical and decided to meet with her for an appointment in spiritual direction and grief counseling. In our very first meeting I was struck by what seemed to be a gentle, deeply spiritual and humble woman. She was gracious, feminism, and extremely polite, almost to a fault. She seemed like the kind of person who would never hurt or even could be capable of hurting anyone.
I decided to work with her in hopes of deepening my faith and healing some old wounds, she has a MFCC license and I was told that she specializes in grief counseling, I was hoping that she would be compassionate to the painful childhood memories and complicated grief that I was trying to work through and heal.
After about our second or third meeting she invited me into a prayer group which was led by her. The prayer group was strange but I was hungry for fellowship and in much need of new connections in my life. The psychology of the group appealed to me at first but after a while I became uncomfortable with what felt like spiritual elitism. When I would express my desire to leave the group I would be met with her calm but reassuring excuses covering what seemed a hidden frantic need. I figured that she was just really a deeply caring person and really wanted either what was best for me or what was best for the group. However, something just was not right, one thing that seemed certain was that she seemed bent at always being the center of attention.
We continued to work together in spiritual direction and I did learn something's. However, overtime I became frustrated with what seemed like her subtle judgments, projections and lack of insight. At times, I felt subtly despised by her. There was a certain tension between us that began to develop. I recall one time, when I was in grief over the loss of my father when I was a small child, she kept hammering me with the need to forgive him. I was angry and dealing with old feelings and she was completely without empathy. Of course I would forgive him, but it takes time and it is a process.
That was when I called it quits with her. I did try to express to her how I felt about her lack of compassion for my delayed grief and she gave one of those defensive unsympathetic apologies.
I was free... So I thought.
This NS woman runs in my social circle at my church, she is highly popular and well esteemed. Because of this and despite my intuition, I unconsciously questioned my judgment of her. I think that I hoped that one day we would at least be friends, I did like her or, I think it was her charm I liked. There was a time in our work and friendship when I would babysit her son and we became somewhat friends outside of working together in spiritual direction. At times I would even confess that I felt a bit jealous of the attention she gained through her work and her popularity but I felt OK enough with me and at peace with myself as well as I knew how to quickly nip aroused jealous feelings in the bud by being grateful at others gifts and goodness.
In my quest for spiritual growth I started working with a new spiritual director, a man that she knew and really respected or highly admired too. About a week after I ended my work with her I noticed that she asked this man to help spiritually direct her prayer group which I found to be a bit strange, the timing was interesting, I just assumed it was a coincidence.
A year goes by. I am still happily working with this man in spiritual direction. I have not spoken with her, I have not seen her. I have felt better than I have in years, healing, growing, new friends, old friends, relationships are happy for me. The man that I work with leaves for the summer and instructs me to work with her in his absence. I am reluctant because of my hunch, something about her that just does not seem right. Nevertheless I begin work with her on the phone and once again I sense contempt and despise coming from her at me. She seems incredibly distrustful of me and I always feel, the best way to describe it, emotionally dirty after I have a conversation with her. It is like she brings out the worst in me.
As the summer moves on I begin to have more memories from the time that I was abandoned when I was a child, this is not a new set of memories, I have worked diligently on this particular trauma over the years. A close friend of mine was moving away this summer and it brought up some pain. The NS seemed aloof, unsympathetic to my pain, suffering. I finally had had it - I called her on this stuff, I told her how I felt, judged, despised unable to open up with her, etc. Her response was to shut me out, the silent treatment it hurt. I was tactful and kind the way I tried to rely my feelings and she was cold and contemptuous.
I let it go and moved on.
Then a week, before my spiritual director comes back to town, I hear that she has a Mass planned with him, he is not even back yet. A funny feeling crosses me but dismiss it, she would never do that I tell myself she is too spiritual.
Then I meet with my spiritual director and he treats me with coldness and aloofness like I have never experienced from him, not to mention he treats me like the abuser in the situation with the woman. It becomes clear to be me that she spoke with him about me and made me out to be her scapegoat for her bad behavior. It felt as though she projected herself onto me and then made me out to be the narcissist to him and her out to be the victim.
My reputation has been ruined at my church, with other friends in my social circle and all the while I have been distressed. She is the really popular one, the kind one, the one with the degrees and the one that my spiritual director esteems. I feel as though my reputation was vandalized by her so that she could protect her image. She seems now to me to be a wolf in sheep's clothing.
Does this sound like a story of a narcissist?
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Dear Lise,
Reading your story again here, from that Nov. post, I just realized something... about the difference between being frightened by feelings (including those of others') and despising feelings (also including the feelings of others).
I've certainly been terrified of other peoples' strong emotions in the past... and now I know that terror sprung from my own deep sense of responsibility, as though the strongly emotive people were looking to me to fix them, to make them feel better.
I would try and try to help... just by being there for them... by reassuring... by reading the riot act to them even, on occasion... but it was never enough. At last, I would give up and walk away. Of course, this was in the context of friendship, not a professional counseling capacity.
But some people are not simply afraid of strong feelings in others... they despise those feelings and look at them with contempt.
Is this what NSaint does, do you feel?
I feel that's what my mother does.
As though you've broken some cardinal rule by daring to feel poorly in the presence of such greatness...
ugh.
I hope this makes some sense and doesn't cause you hurt by my asking.
Love,
Carolyn
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Hi Carolyn,
What you brought up here is the root, at least from one perspective or my perspective of narcissism. Alice Miller writes about it in her book The Drama of the Gifted Child.
When we are children we are naturally emotional i.e. our emotions and needs are the only things we can identify ourselves with. In other words we are our emotions and needs to ourselves. So when a parent is displeased with our emotions, our intense emotions, (I'm sure you have noticed that babies and small children have rather intense emotions) the child picks up on it and out of the child's survival instinct they will shut the emotion and expression of need down in order to conform to their mom's expectations in order to not displease her -- babies, children instinctively know that without a parent or caregiver they will die. Babies emotions and needs are in a sense rejected by the parent therefore the child's core sense of self is rejected and bound in shame.
My mom used to say to my sister and I that we were really "good" babies in that we "never" cried. Well, I found that strange, so did my sister. Babies cry, naturally, all babies!
My sister can remember being about 2 years old and crying in the back seat of the car, my mom turned to her and told her to "stop crying or I will give you something to cry about!"
N's hate emotions.
So, when I was in intense painful emotions and memories this last summer, N saint who I am now going to start calling Rachel because I do not what to treat her with disrespect anymore (do unto others as you would have them do to you) could not handle my pain. She told the priest that I was "intense." If you can imagine, this cut into my deepest nerve. As a baby I WAS intense in my needs and wants. But my mom rejected me, my needs and emotions were bound in shame.
I have no idea if I am making sense here...
Thanks for being there for me Carolyn.
Lise
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Dear Lise,
I can relate to your statement about our emotions being rejected and we have a sense of shame.I wear shame like a coat. I have made inroads in to letting some of it go. However, there is still way too much there.
It is very deep and resistant to change.
I am trying to be more real with people and to try to stay in my "core", as an exercise to dispel shame. You would not believe ALL the people who shared about having depression, after Scott died.
*I* was trying to be so "perfect" so people would like me, that I was pushing away people. As I "force" myself to be "real", I connect and find that I am not alone, after all.
My neighbor,in the cashmere sweater with pearls and high heels(lol) is the perfect example. She had it all and she understood all that I was going through,as if she was a member of the board. My M was wrong when she told me that there WERE perfect people. Oh , the lessons you have to "unlearn" when you have an NM--gobs of lessons.
So, now I am trying to unlearn them: to see life with my own eyes,not hers .
That is my current goal. Her lens screwed me up, royally. My own sight will have to be better than that. I think that my own perceptions are ,actually ,good. Ami
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Hi Carolyn,
What you brought up here is the root, at least from one perspective or my perspective of narcissism. Alice Miller writes about it in her book The Drama of the Gifted Child.
When we are children we are naturally emotional i.e. our emotions and needs are the only things we can identify ourselves with. In other words we are our emotions and needs to ourselves.
Dear Lise,
If our emotions and needs are the only things with which we can identify ourselves, as children,
then that explains to me - at last - in terms which I can understand - why I felt like such a nothing
as a teenager... and into adulthood... unless I had a man. Married at 20 and divorced at 21, that was the first and only emotional connection I'd ever known...
and it really wasn't emotional at all; at least not to the other person, I don't guess.
Right now, I can't even think any further than that one thought... because I've just never seen it so clearly and simply, and related to it so personally, before.
Thank you.
((((((((Lise)))))))))
I will come back to the rest when I can.
Love,
Carolyn
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Hi Carolyn,
I'm glad that this was insightful to you.
When N saint or Rachel (not real name) told me last summer that I was "intense", just as my intense emotions/memories were surfacing, it was like a knife going into my gut.
Then when my spiritual director, the priest, told me that I was "intense" it was like a second knife going into the wound itself. I was emotionally incapacitated for three days because of the layer of shame that they, N saint and the priest, triggered. It was as if my core was opened up and revealed and then someone lit a match and set my core self on fire.
What n saint and priest did was trigger the deepest original wound I have. I have since begun to call it the baby wound of N's. Our needs and emotions were squished. Our needs and emotions were our only form of self expression and they got squished!
If you had an N mom or a caregiver, there is a wounding at the earliest stages of life. It is the wounding of not being unconditionally loved, genuinely loved the wound of shame of core self.
Peace and hugs,
Lise
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((((((((((Lise)))))))))) I feel like mine were smothered, more than squished. Starved of oxygen, with great globs of stoicism and pride, smothered over top like lard, in an attempt to extinguish any attempt at honest, genuine expression....
but they are alive and well now, in great part due to you and your honest expression of your self here.
Thank you so much for that... and for allowing me to be my self, in every way.
With much love,
Carolyn