Voicelessness and Emotional Survival Message Board
Voicelessness and Emotional Survival => Voicelessness and Emotional Survival Message Board => Topic started by: Overcomer on February 10, 2008, 08:52:15 AM
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I have some thoughts about this. I was raised in a "Christian" home. We went to church every Sunday morning for Sunday School and church. We went every Sunday night. We went every Wednesday night. We had a definite set of rules and regulations and the "we don't dos....." My life was controlled by the threat of going to hell and what would Jesus think if he saw you doing that bad thing?????
When I got older I realized people called us Religious people.
Then there is my husband. He was raised in a Lutheran church. His family was less "religious" but they always went to church each Sunday. He served communion. etc.
I never felt he was "spiritual." He had no day to day relationship with a higher power and when he talked of his faith he calls it Lutheranism................funny, I always thought it was called being a Christian.....
Anyway, I look at some people and their religion seems to have a sense of duty. Some of the rituals that occur seem to be religious.
Then there is the spiritual people. These people seem to connect to God in a much more relational way. Some of these people don't even do the church thing............
In another post the question was asked....Can a religious person be abusive? Well, yes. Religious does not equal spiritual. A person who communes with God in such a way that they almost get to another level...............the fruit of the spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, long suffering, self control, goodness, kindness..............these words are the antithesis of abuse...............so by their fruit you will know them...............
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Hi Kelly,
Religious Christian follows with head knowledge (routine and liturgy only).
Spiritual Christian follows from their heart.
Both can be abusive (hence, the thread, "Spiritual Abuse") As in the Charismatic Church I was a member of back then, very Spiritual.
It's all about a personal relationship, as a Spiritual Christian, and therefore, the person has a personal responsibility, and is personally accountable, for walking in the Spirit with the truth of God's word in their heart, speaking and acting from their heart.
Else, there is no difference.
"By their fruits you shall know them"
Spiritual Christians can be abusive, and are, when they walk in the flesh, and not in the spirit.
Leah x
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I think we are agreeing BUT................what I think is if people ACT spiritual they can be abusive. If they ARE spiritual and truly exhibit the fruits of the spirit they cannot be abusive because one of the fruits is not abuse............
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Oh Kelly, what a great topic. I can say that Ann seems to follow the "law of love"(spiritual) . I think that the key is finding God's love and that will transport us to being "spiritual", not religious.
I am on the very first steps.
I think that we ,first ,have to be transparent with God. Then,we can be more transparent with ourselves, and then others.
I told Ann s/thing that she could have condemned me for ,very easily,but she looked at me and I could see that she was looking at me ,with eyes of love, not condemnation. I was surprised.
Religious people make you feel condemned . Spiritual people make you feel accepted.
I could tell anything to Maria. She is the closest person to God that I know.
Even my son told me that he could talk to her ,and not her H(who is Mr. Holy(religious). Maria is spiritual.
I think that there is a huge difference in the two, Kelly.
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I am reminded of the quote (cannot remember whose it is), that "religion is for those that fear hell, while spirituality is for those who have been there, and back".
Hermes
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Hi Kelly,
I am only going by what the Bible says, as in Spiritual, and the Pharisees, as Jesus spoke.
Yes, a Spiritual Christian can ACT from head knowledge only, or in disobedience to God's Word, or simply walking in the Flesh.
Therefore, can be abusive.
Many married women of clergy / ministers / pastors get taken into women's safe refuge each year, from all kinds of abuse. God's Grace is missused, the minister believes that his liberal view means that he can do anything, as he is saved already. Those words I have heard first hand.
Verbal Abuse in Spiritual Abuse, is deadly to one's inner core.
"Know them by their fruits" is my personal anchor, for my personal emotional safety and well being.
Leah x
http://www.voicelessness.com/disc3//index.php?topic=7356.0 (http://www.voicelessness.com/disc3//index.php?topic=7356.0) Religious and Spiritual
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I believe that religiousnes and spirituality have to be in balance. You cannot be good if inbalanced. Everybody needs a little fo both. Whatever the religion is. There is liturgy, and if you do not follow the liturgy in a moderate way you are not fallowing the religion either, and if you do not have spirituality you are not even religious.
Fundamentalists who go to the extremes,are IMO no good for enybody. Extremes are bad. Balance is the best.
Or so I think. My two cents.
For example, in the bible ST James chapter two, says your faith is dead with out work, your faith is dead if you let your friend go thirsty or hungry. I will show you my faith through my actions.
So, it is a balance.
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Extremes are bad. Balance is the best. Lupita.
Well said.
All the best today Lupita
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Wow, pretty profound Hermes...
I think of religious peeople as like the Pharisees from the Bible. They were so set on their rules and regulations that they could not even see Jesus for what He was....
Like the time he healed someone on the Sabbath and they were more concerned about him working on the Sabbath then the fact that some poor blind man could now see!!
There is a huge faction of Christian writers who are writing against the status quo....against the religiosity of the traditional Christian church, etc.
Then I heard on the radio some preacher condemning these young thinkers.......talking about taking the gospel and changing it, etc.
I have such strong feelings about this because I was one who grew up in a legalistic, traditional Christian home. I never (not once) felt God's grace and love. All I felt was this sense that I was bad and that I was going to hell. We had to be perfect.
My brother and I both realized in our teens that not only would be never be perfect, so why try, but it just wasn't fun being a Christian either so we just started partying and carrying on and feeling extreme guilt and shame all the while......
It took me years. Lots of research. Reading lots of books. Prayer. Counseling. To finally "get it."
Yes, I know. I guess I do not exhibit all of the fruit of the spirit...................patience. Longsuffering. (well, I guess I have suffered for a LONG time...............but I do not do it with much grace!!) But I understand that it is all about who you are and not what you do.
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Yes, Overcomer. As in "charity covereth a multitude of sins".
If you are a good person, caring and kind towards others and doing no harm, it makes no difference if you never get down on your knees to pray. IMHO.
Hermes
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The Warning Signs of Toxic Religion
I read this list on a Christian web site and thought is was worth sharing:
All of us would like to enjoy a healthy spiritual life. But the sad truth is that many of us, and many churches today, are barren because of hazardous additives. We have believed a different gospel—one laced with legalism, performance-based religion and salvation by works—when Christ alone is our only source of life.
Jesus Himself referred to these toxins as “the leaven of the Pharisees” (Luke 12:1). He told us that the Pharisees’ brand of religion, which looked good on the outside, was deadly—and contagious.
Have you been infected? You can examine these characteristics of a religious spirit.
1. A religious spirit views God as a cold, harsh, distant taskmaster rather than an approachable, loving Father. When we base our relationship with God on our ability to perform spiritual duties, we deny the power of grace. God does not love us because we pray, read our Bibles, attend church or witness, yet millions of Christians think God is mad if they don’t perform these and other duties perfectly. As a result they struggle to find true intimacy with Jesus.
2. A religious spirit places emphasis on doing outward things to show others that God accepts him. We deceive ourselves into believing that we can win God’s approval through a religious dress code, certain spiritual disciplines, particular music styles or even doctrinal positions.
3. A religious spirit develops traditions and formulas to accomplish spiritual goals. We trust in our liturgies, denominational policies or man-made programs to obtain results that only God alone can give.
4. A religious spirit becomes joyless, cynical and hypercritical. This can turn a home or a church completely sour. Then, whenever genuine joy and love are expressed, this becomes a threat to those who have lost the simplicity of true faith.
5. A religious spirit becomes prideful and isolated, thinking that his righteousness is special and that he cannot associate with other believers who have different standards. Churches that allow these attitudes become elitist—and dangerously vulnerable to deception or cult-like practices.
6. A religious spirit develops a harsh, judgmental attitude toward sinners, yet those who ingest this poison typically struggle with sinful habits that they cannot admit to anyone else. Religious people rarely interact with nonbelievers because they don’t want their own superior morals to be tainted by them.
7. A religious spirit persecutes those who disagree with his self-righteous views and becomes angry whenever the message of grace threatens to undermine his religiosity. An angry religious person will use gossip and slander to assassinate other peoples’ character and may even use violence to prove his point. Jesus, in fact, warned His disciples: “There will even come a time when anyone who kills you will think he’s doing God a favor” (John 16:2, The Message).
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Not for me. I feel I need that connection to someone all knowing and all powerful. I need to ask God to help me make right decisions, etc. I need guidance in my day to day life. I need to be able to pour out my emotions to the one who can give me the peace that transcends all understanding. I NEED that.
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Leah, that list fits my Nmom to a tee. It is funny. I used to cowtow to all of those things. Now I look at her, shake my head and basically say, THAT IS YOUR RELIGION, NOT MINE!!!
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Yes, Overcomer. And that is your prerogative, to which you are totally and entirely entitled. To seek guidance wherever you think fit.
All the best
Hermes
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Wow, pretty profound Hermes...
I think of religious peeople as like the Pharisees from the Bible. They were so set on their rules and regulations that they could not even see Jesus for what He was....
Like the time he healed someone on the Sabbath and they were more concerned about him working on the Sabbath then the fact that some poor blind man could now see!!
Exactly, Kelly. Because I also grew up within a very religious, legalistic setting, I can now see all of that as the sham it truly is! Working out what Jesus has worked in, by the Holy Spirit, is what I see as the key to Godly spirituality. Also, I have heard it said that religion is mankind's attempt to reach God - - but it is God who reached toward mankind with His Gift of Christ Jesus. Worshipping Him in spirit and in truth is the antithesis of religious activity.
I am so glad you're not stuck on that phone any more, Kelly! :D Have a great Sunday...
with love,
Carolyn
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""Religious people make you feel condemned . Spiritual people make you feel accepted. "" (Ami).
Yes, there is a big difference between the two, Ami. I am glad you have found this person who helps you.
Hermes
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Funny...
I do not get the phone reference, Carolyn.....
I believe that even if our motives are pure and we truly seek to be more spiritual and less religious, we can fall into traps. Rituals, if you will.
I find that the older I am I am more set in my ways. Things need to happen pretty much the same way every single day of my life. Routines. Get up. Have coffee. Etc.
You could try to do a morning devotion. Then a Bible reading. And before you know it it is the act that is important to you, not what you get out of it.
John Eldrege says Christianity has become a series of tips and techniques. Seven ways to grow a great church. Five ways for a good quiet time. ETc. He talks more about the story of your life. I have heard him speak and he was instrumental in changing the way I think about religion.....
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Oh, Kelly... I meant that I'm glad you can post more now, without the limit of characters, as with posting from your cell phone.
Have you read The Sacred Romance, by Eldredge?
And I hear you about getting too comfy with our rituals. If someone needs help from me and I tell them they'll have to wait, because I am busy at that time doing "my devotional"... well, then, I need to wake up!
Love,
Carolyn
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Religious people make you feel condemned . Spiritual people make you feel accepted.
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Genuine, true, walking in the Spirit, daily, Christians, ought to make one feel accepted.
As the Word sits rightly in their heart.
Sadly, that is not always so. "Forgiveness is the key, and leave it with God"
Leah x
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Hi Kelly,
It is ever so easy for a Spiritual Christian to lose sight of the simple true faith and have a "Religious Spirit" [ Pharisees ] as I have witnessed, sadly.
True Spiritual Relationship faith, is having a teachable heart, humble and contrite (as the Bible teaches us).
No power, no control, no competition, "Blessed are the Nobodies"
Working out one's faith, in a close relationship with God, through Jesus Christ His Son, Walking in the Spirit each day, with a humble contrite teachable heart .... simple true faith and belief.
With a childlike heart. (not childish)
Worshipping in Spirit and in Truth.
I have gone "Back to Basics" as I think, as Christians, we lose that "First Love" and become complacent, or worse still, walk in the flesh, and we don't know it.
Leah x (Ms Nobody)
PS > Knowing that we are saved, and so filled with love and joy, that we love one another, in spirit and in truth, as He loves us.
With the fruits of His spirit, within us, each day. "You shall know them by their fruits"
"Relationship = true Intimacy"
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Another example, Kelly, which I heard recently...
In a country where a certain animal is considered sacred, a mother may sit by and allow her only child to starve to death, while that animal destroys her home, rather than to slaughter and cook it to feed her suffering child.
That is what religion does to people.
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Yes, nice to be able to blab without the phone but fun to be able to check where ever I am!!
Yes, I have read the Sacred Romance and the Journey of Desire and Waking the Dead. I have not read Wild at Heart or Captivating or Epic but I want to..
I saw John speak right when Sacred Romance came out. He touched my heart. I finally heard somebody talk about how God made him feel.
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Exactly, Kelly.... talking about how God made him feel... about what God had done for him...
instead of some long listing of all the things he was supposedly doing for God (which is religion).
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He talks about EMBRACING LIFE!! (not yelling, John just talks with exclamation points!!) He talks about nature and beauty etc.
In the Sacred Romance he talks about how heaven is not drinking kool aid out of a styrofoam cup in a church basement...........it is beauty and passion and awesomeness and happiness and glory etc.
It is not about religion but relationship................maybe that is a better word. Not even spirituality but relationship.
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He talks about EMBRACING LIFE!! (not yelling, John just talks with exclamation points!!) He talks about nature and beauty etc.
In the Sacred Romance he talks about how heaven is not drinking kool aid out of a styrofoam cup in a church basement...........it is beauty and passion and awesomeness and happiness and glory etc.
It is not about religion but relationship................maybe that is a better word. Not even spirituality but relationship.
Exactly again :D So awesome! SOooo much I regret that I didn't have this relationship when my own older children were very young, yet I know that God is faithful to draw them to His heart, just as He has drawn me. Relationship, yes. And it's not about feeling spiritual... it's about being - for all intents and purposes - a Spirit-indwelt child of the living God!
Amen.
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Working out one's faith, in a close relationship with God, through Jesus Christ His Son, Walking in the Spirit each day, with a humble contrite teachable heart .... simple true faith and belief.
It's that simple!
Leah x
Relationship means true intimacy
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Preach it!!! It is this thing that you cannot describe. It is NOT going to church. It is not being extremely demonstrative in your worship. It is not doing devotions every day or reading your Bible everyday (although those things are great as long as those things are not the goal.....) It is not hanging a cross in your home. Or burning incense. Or laying in your garden communing with Mother Nature. It is not going on a Missions Trip. It is not serving communion. It is not singing songs. Although you could do any of those things........................if you want and if it is not some misguided.....something................or other.
It is about taking off the mask. It is about being real. It is about being vulnerable. It is about admitting mistakes. It is about acknowledging that without His love and acceptance and guidance you are bound to screw everything up!!
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Preach it!!! It is this thing that you cannot describe. It is NOT going to church. It is not being extremely demonstrative in your worship. It is not doing devotions every day or reading your Bible everyday (although those things are great as long as those things are not the goal.....) It is not hanging a cross in your home. Or burning incense. Or laying in your garden communing with Mother Nature. It is not going on a Missions Trip. It is not serving communion. It is not singing songs. Although you could do any of those things........................if you want and if it is not some misguided.....something................or other.
It is about taking off the mask. It is about being real. It is about being vulnerable. It is about admitting mistakes. It is about acknowledging that without His love and acceptance and guidance you are bound to screw everything up!!
Amen, Kelly.
That last part in bold is almost exactly, word for word, what I wrote in closing, in the last letter I sent to my parents.
I get no response to that whatsoever. They love their "religion".
Carolyn
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That's the beauty of it all, Kelly
It's not about walking through the front doors once a week, for an hour or so.
It's inside, with a close relationship, that simply exudes, because, just because, it's all consuming, and overflows, like oil !
Leah x
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Yep, I get the same "deer in the headlights" look from my mother. Almost like, "how dare you say these things to I, your Queen Mother, who owns and establishes the universe and everything around it..................you know not....................be gone!!"
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Thank you for the opportunity to share, ((( Kelly )))
Every blessing in your walk.
Leah x
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Yep, I get the same "deer in the headlights" look from my mother. Almost like, "how dare you say these things to I, your Queen Mother, who owns and establishes the universe and everything around it..................you know not....................be gone!!"
Yes. Kelly, the "notes" which came after that were not even half a small page from a steno pad...
she was clearly furious, yet even then - she didn't dare ask any direct questions, e.g. - "Is that how you see me?"
really pitiful, to be that full of pride and self-sufficiency.
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And judgement. "Poor unstable Kelly. If she could only be like me, her life would make so much more sense. If she went to my church - regularly and on time. If she dressed like me and acted like me and did what I told her to, she wouldn't be such a mess."
Not acknowledging that it is SHE that has made my life such a mess.
My aunt said to her.............."Beth...........you can Kelly are the complete opposites of each other. You couldn't be more different!!"
And yet, the Queen Mother would still have me following in her phoney footsteps...........making me her puppet who does what I am told and who in all actuality does everything FOR the Queen Mother because the Queen Mother really does not have a clue so she hides behind a few select phrases and quotes and lives her lie on a stage...............just daring for someone to expose her........and when I yell.."the emperor has no clothes!!" It becomes, "Poor unstable Kelly."
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Hi Kelly,
I can relate to your views on `spiritual' versus `Religious' ; it was nice reading through this thread and getting to know your thoughts more deeply.
I don't think `spirituality' necessarily relates to God. Buddhists don't believe in a creator, for example, and yet Buddhism is regarded as one of the world's major spiritual philosophies.
Spiritual people always seem to me to be `truth seekers' who dig beneath their own self deceit.
X Bella
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YEAH, that is why I included the incense and the laying in the garden communing with Mother Nature. I know there are other religions that people consider spiritual..........so I do not think that that is the word I was searching for..............then I thought of relational....it seemed a better fit for how I think.........
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And judgement. "Poor unstable Kelly. If she could only be like me, her life would make so much more sense. If she went to my church - regularly and on time. If she dressed like me and acted like me and did what I told her to, she wouldn't be such a mess."
Not acknowledging that it is SHE that has made my life such a mess.
My aunt said to her.............."Beth...........you can Kelly are the complete opposites of each other. You couldn't be more different!!"
And yet, the Queen Mother would still have me following in her phoney footsteps...........making me her puppet who does what I am told and who in all actuality does everything FOR the Queen Mother because the Queen Mother really does not have a clue so she hides behind a few select phrases and quotes and lives her lie on a stage...............just daring for someone to expose her........and when I yell.."the emperor has no clothes!!" It becomes, "Poor unstable Kelly."
Kelly,
I'm pretty sure that if I had to deal with my mother day in and day out, especially trying to work within the same business as she, I would be bald and constantly snarling... Or deceased from high blood pressure. As it is, I have difficulty calming my mind and heart and not going on an internal rampage after our occasional contact (she called yesterday).
But the thing is - - the only way I expect to ever, ever be free of all those feelings is to stop saying to myself "but SHE made me what/who I am!!" She had her time of input and shaping... but that's over now, and that's just exactly what I have to keep reminding myself.. it is over now. Now I am not that person anymore.
I hope that you and I both will be able to continue practicing an awareness of our own, individual identity... and finding that identity in Christ Jesus and who HE made us to be... and not in the past influences of our parents, spouses, or anyone else.
Love to you,
Carolyn
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You're right. It is so easy to blame and it is especially hard to deal with when you are with her all the time. She did her damage and some times I have flare ups but I am a 48 year old woman...I do not need her...
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Extremes are bad. Balance is the best.
allelujah! Amen to that...
:D
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I have often said that my pendulum has always swung too far the opposite of my mom. If I could just live a balanced life all would be good.
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well, I could write a book on this topic, but I will just say a few things:
First of all, pharisees were not only religious, they were narcissists and psychopaths.
Secondly, I hate being called religious. I have a relationship with the Lord and yes, I honor His statutes, but I do not fear being sent to hell if I goof up. I do believe in repentance however and forgiveness and that it's needed. I believe the Bible is absolute, infallible and that God is real and certain in my future and now.
Lastly, I'm a follower of Yahuwshu`a or as the Greeks say, Jesus. I love Him and I do my best to serve Him.
Recently, God has been transforming me by renewing my mind in many ways. To Him be all the glory.
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I think that is a bunch of BUNK, that's what I think. Jesus was no more a pharisee than I am a politician!
Jesus would not tell people do not do __________ "as the Pharisees and hippocrites do" if he looked favorably on the Pharisees. He always depicted Pharisees as being a bad thing, not a good one. Please read your Bible and see for yourself what Jesus' said.
The only things Jesus practiced, some of which I also do, were JEWISH customs, not Pharisaical ones. Jesus was raised by Joseph the carpenter. PAUL was a Pharisee, NOT Jesus.
To me, this is nothing short of blasphemy what this person said, and YES IT UPSETS ME AS WELL IT SHOULD! Jesus was not religious in the sense of the negative aspect of that word. Jesus was all about relationship between God and His children. Yes, He followed the law as did others, but He was never in favor of the way the Pharisees were. He constantly decried hippocrisy and vanity over them.
So, those are my thoughts on this. I find it very disturbing indeed!
~Laura
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".......but sometimes the questions they ask are simply that -- questions. ""
You can get into trouble, T.T. by asking questions, or merely by questioning.
All the best
Hermes
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Hi RM,
If one has a spiritual belief, they should IMO be passionate about defending it and that is what you do.
Sincerely,
tt
True ((( RM ))) resonate with accord.
Thank you ((( TT ))) I have ordered that book!
Leahx
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Thank you, TT.
The way I see it is, if my belief is the correct one, the people who choose not to espouse to it, are in more danger than I am in for having it. I mean, if I find out at the end of life, that there is nothing, then I lived my life as though there were a prize and it doesn't matter. If I find out that my beliefs are correct and true, then I reap the reward of living in eternity with my Lord and His people. It's worth the risk to believe in that case for me.
Besides, to me life would be empty without my faith.
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Thank you, TT.
The way I see it is, if my belief is the correct one, the people who choose not to espouse to it, are in more danger than I am in for having it. I mean, if I find out at the end of life, that there is nothing, then I lived my life as though there were a prize and it doesn't matter. If I find out that my beliefs are correct and true, then I reap the reward of living in eternity with my Lord and His people. It's worth the risk to believe in that case for me.
Besides, to me life would be empty without my faith.
Resonate with accord, witness to that effect. :) Leah x
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It"s known as "fire insurance" in these parts, T.T. LMAO.
Hermes
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I just finished a book that had a quote:
People will believe what they want to believe is true, and that which they fear may be true'
Terry Goodkind
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Izzy, I shudder to challenge your thoughts on this one, but, since you risked reading and posting on the thread, I spose I will too.
I want to let you know that, saying Praise the Lord after everything is NOT being Christian...it's being RADICALLY OBNOXIOUS! You might want to ask your sister and brother in law something for me...did JESUS go around saying "Praise the Lord" constantly? Tell them I think they have a spiritual TIC and need deliverance from it!
Secondly, no wonder you chose agnosticism, if those two are the taste of Christianity that you've gotten! Yipes! Christians who feel forgiven and loved, generally do not have to keep letting you know about it. I have met some people who constantly thought they had to repent over every little thing...those people were diagnosed BPD's! There is one other type of person who repents a lot and lives their lives thinking they will go to hell if they don't...some very Melancholy personalities...that does NOT make them necessarily Christian or close to the Lord.
Just some thoughts
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I have a best friend, who is NOT a Christian and that person has taught me how to love . So, that is "different".My path now is embracing love for myself, and then being able to give love.
For me, the person who taught me about love , and demonstrated it to me,was not a Christian. So, I don't know. I am just putting it out there(lol) Ami
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Gosh Iz,
I hear ya about finding out things about ourselves that we didnt' know. Isn't it so hard to really SEE ourselves as others do? Dr Phil has that part LICKED right off the batt, since he puts cameras into people's homes. You can't deny what you SEE IN LIVING COLOR, ya know? Smart man, Phil.
Hugs,
Laura
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We had an employee who would always say when asked how ya doing? He would say EVEN THOUGH I DO NOT DESERVE IT I AM BLESSED. Every time-sorry but if you always respond the same way it becomes cliche-praise God!
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LOL, Kelly! Ami
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Amen!