Voicelessness and Emotional Survival Message Board
Voicelessness and Emotional Survival => Voicelessness and Emotional Survival Message Board => Topic started by: Certain Hope on February 12, 2008, 08:04:26 PM
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Hi, Hermes,
Just wanted you to know that I don't dislike you.
I don't like some of your choices of expression here on the board, but I don't dislike you.
I don't like some of my own choices of expression here on the board, either.
For some reason, you don't happen to push my buttons... but I do see how others would feel their buttons pushed.
I also saw - at the beginning - how you would feel your buttons being pushed.
Somehow along the way, as is bound to occur here on this board from time to time, there was a bolt of lightning which shut down some major circuits and I watched it become apparently impossible for many of those involved to hear each other.
Having been in that position myself, and likely to be there again, I don't feel the tiniest bit superior about this... because, like I said, you simply don't trigger me.
Maybe that's because I was raised in a very mild version of your own religious upbringing and can definitely relate to the horrors of such an environment and its effects on a child.
Anyway, I just wanted to express these few things to you, after reading your last post on Axa's thread re: sadness.
Because I felt that was Axa's place to express her own feelings... and not a place for any further discussion or potential argument about the conflict itself.
I hope that you won't take any offense at what I've written here... none is intended.
I wish you well.
Carolyn
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Dear Carolyn:
Thank you, very much, for your kind, direct, and civilised post. I do appreciate it. I can only speak with my own "voice", I cannot imitate someone else's way of expressing him or herself. That would not be "me". Thankyou too for remembering my post about my secondary school days. Fortunately my good family greatly offset that particular five year experience.
I would never ever take offense at a post like yours, Carolyn. I like people to be straightforward, and if they did not like me asking about the "why" of the deleted thread, they could have said so in a different way IMO. But, attack me and I will attack back (no doubt a legacy of my time with exNH).
Thanks again, and best wishes
Hermes
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I justed wanted to add (as I have posted on another thread), that if the majority wish to approach Dr. Grossman to ask him to ask me to leave the board, I shall most certainly abide by his decision. I cannot be any fairer than that.
Hermes
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From the "anger and shame thread:"
Dear Hermes,
When I first signed on the board and noticed you posting here again, with no regard for my previous limits and expressions, I felt a pang of fear and hurt.
The topic of this thread was Shame and anger and why do people make us feel ashamed for our anger. I have not seen one reference to my topic from you nor have I seen an ounce of empathy or concern from you here on this thread for my feelings or the deep pain that I have expressed or even just simply my presence. On the contrary, the behavior by you towards me has been exceptionally inconsiderate and intentionally hurtful - that leaves me with a question, can you honestly admit to not having hidden agendas?
Please feel free to discuss whatever you want on this board but I will ask again, for the third time, please respect the topic here on this thread, and that this is my thread and that I am reading this thread.
Your behavior has show a clear disrespect for my feelings and limits. It is OK to express your self - but at some point, myself included we have to realize how our behavior and voice affects others.
Lise
Hermes,
Many times I have posted straightforward posts to you, like the one above, only to get extremely rude replys. It seems that it is OK for you to be rude but not others?
Can you honestly admit to treating me with dignity and respect since you have been on the board. At one point I even apologized to you for being critical of you.
The amazing thing about this board is if you can grow, change, heal -- even admit defeat, or apologize to others for behavior, really, you do not even have to apologize, just change the behavior, others here will respect you and treat you better in the long run.
As long as you behave the way you are behaving these conflicts are going to continue. OR you will find very few people here posting on your threads and they WILL ignore you.
People here figure out your buttons and how to push them, real fast.
Lise
(At this point, I feel out of things to express, I've finally spoken my voice.)
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Dear Hermes,
Thanks for your response.
I wonder whether you would consider... simply entertain the possibility... that people who did not enjoy the benefit of a "good family" such as yours may suffer increased difficulty with issues of trust, on which so much of our interaction here is based.
Please allow me to attempt an explanation of that last part...
I'm not saying that we must necessarily trust each other deeply here... because, after all, there are some severe limitations involved with internet communications and none of us really can know another (that can be difficult enough when face to face!)
What I mean about trust is this...
when I first came to this board nearly 2 years ago, I really had no idea who I was... only that I'd recently escaped marriage to a man with npd and immediately lept into another marriage... because I had absolutely no interest in returning to my family of origin "to be with people who cared about me" (something a family member suggested at the time).
My lack of self awareness deeply affected my ability to relate to others in a calm, cool, objective, non-reactive manner...
and all that had very little to do with my npd ex-husband.
It had everything to do with the fact that I was raised by parents who never gave me a sense of myself as being a valuable, unique individual... let alone how to deal with feelings, emotions, differences - - life in general!
The fact is = If it had not been for people who were willing to come alongside me then, here on this board, I might be sitting here right now thinking - - sheesh, I wish Hermes would get out of here! That's how I was raised. It is not who I was meant to be.
So please, I would just ask you to consider... and try to imagine - knowing your own legacy from npd ex-husband and how that affected you...
how it might feel to have known nothing but such ravages from the very beginning, from infancy...
to have never felt that there was a smidgen of solid ground beneath your feet.
I hope that you can imagine... and possibly understand.
Sincerely,
Carolyn
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Hello to everyone,
Surely this board is not all about someone posting, with deliberate intention of setting out to push someone's buttons / or triggers etc.
In my personal experience, using yesterday's expression, "unwittingly" doing so is more than likely to happen.
I have unwittingly, unknowingly, created a trigger by posting something real appertaining to my life experience and journey.
But, it was never intentional, whyever would someone wish to do that?
We use and time and resources for personal life healing journey --- is my understanding, and why I am here.
Just my experiential thoughts and view.
I will say this, regardless of anyone's upbringing, because we are not children here, we have lived in the real world, as adults, I do feel that there is no excuse for rudeness, of any kind, reason or none.
Love, Leah x
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Carolyn,
If I had been treated the way Hermes has been here, in the present, I would have very real, very valid issues surrounding trust. Its so hard to really get to know the beautiful, vulnerable side of a person when they are on the defense, accused, scrutinised, & spoken to rudely on a daily basis. That behavior tends make a person want to crawl into a defensive shell, behind walls, where noone can get to them. And defenses tend to be prickly and `unappealling' by default.
You're right, Carolyn, there is love on this board, and a lot of caring, beautiful people. And people respond better to vulnerability than strong defenses. I wonder what the best way forward is from here?
X bella
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Carolyn,
If I had been treated the way Hermes has been here, in the present, I would have very real, very valid issues surrounding trust. Its so hard to really get to know the beautiful, vulnerable side of a person when they are on the defense, accused, scrutinised, & spoken to rudely on a daily basis. That behavior tends make a person want to crawl into a defensive shell, behind walls, where noone can get to them. And defenses tend to be prickly and `unappealling' by default.
You're right, Carolyn, there is love on this board, and a lot of caring, beautiful people. And people respond better to vulnerability than strong defenses. I wonder what the best way forward is from here?
X bella
Dear Bella,
I don't want to hurt your feelings or cause offense... not in any way. I want you to know that you have my admiration and respect!
Nonetheless, I have disagreed with your perspective on some recent events.
My concern here on this thread is that I don't want to assume how Hermes feels... and I don't want to get into a position of speaking to her through you, or around you, or as though you two are one.
My feeling is that you have identified with Hermes to a point that goes beyond anything which has occurred here on the board.
I'm not sure what all is involved with that, but it's just a feeling I have... since I've had similar experience myself, in overidentifying with others.
At that point, I've recognized that it's not even empathy I'm feeling any more... and, whatever it is, I can no longer be objective once that switch has flipped.
It'd be great to discuss your feelings, Bella... your own personal feelings about matters specific to you... and I would love to do that!
But I don't see how to do that in this case without making alot of presumptions about Hermes and preventing her from speaking for herself.
I hope you will understand.
Sincerely,
Carolyn
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Dear Carolyn, I hear you, although I disagree entirely. No offense is taken, Carolyn.
I have never seen anyone attacked so persistently on this board before. Have you? What you are dismissing as `overidentification' is what I see as outrage, empathy, and hearing someone when they say it hurts..
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Dear Bella,
I hear you, too.
The last thing I want to do is to dismiss anyone... which is exactly why I wrote this post to Hermes.
What I'd like is to be allowed to continue discussing this with Hermes if she's interested in doing so...
not because I want to disprove her position toward the conflict or defend anyone with whom she's engaged in conflict,
but because I am interested in Hermes.
None of the above indicates a disinterest in or dismissal of you, dear Bella...
only a refusal to continue a conflict here on this thread in which I was not involved on the other threads where it has already been discussed.
With love,
Carolyn
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No worries Carolyn,
I understand now. Sorry, I am slow.
X bella
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I have found that sometimes what people say is not as important as how it is said. Sometimes people will then jump in and delete things to squalsh the conflict actually makes things worse. If we all asked simple non threatening questions we could get to the bottom of intentions before the conflict arises.
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((((((Bella))))))) thank you for being so gracious to me, always....
and I don't think you're slow.
With love,
Carolyn
P.S. Kelly, what you said is just exactly what I want to practice and make habit... asking simple, non threatening questions which are free from presumptions and assumptions and staying out of defensive mode!
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P.S. Kelly, what you said is just exactly what I want to practice and make habit... asking simple, non threatening questions which are free from presumptions and assumptions and staying out of defensive mode!
That's the Key!
Pain Free!
Leah x :)
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Thank you again, Carolyn. Your post is kind, and I can see what you are saying. I can only imagine the ravages that an abusive and dysfunctional childhood would have on a person, and it must be awful, dreadful, and I can see that it would lead those persons to be untrustful of others. Of course it would. I do understand, and after all there is not a day goes by on either radio or T.V. that there is not some such case discussed.
Perhaps, given that everyone on here is an adult, I suppose I expected adult responses, and I do not mean this sentence to be picked up wrongly. Please! I am totally on the side of the abused person, and if I have posted anything, including links, names of articles, or any other information, it was with the intention of hopefully providing something useful. (and not, as a poster yesterday rudely said, "a know it all". ) That is precisely the kind of personal attack which IMO shows up the true colours of the individual who says such a thing. In fact one reason for providing part of an article or a link, is that the writer of those articles is able to express (and knows more about) facts more clearly than I could.
Could I just say that I agree entirely with anything that Bella has said. It is very very validating to find that someone is actually prepared to stand up and defend you. That is IMO, having a voice for the person who is not allowed a voice at that given moment. Bella is a courageous woman.
I know that invalidation by an NH might not be seen in the same category as childhood abuse and invalidation, mainly because the person is already an adult when the situation develops.
Having said all that, and you ask how I feel. Well, I suppose perplexed is the answer.
I am so sorry for your experience, Carolyn. So many bad experiences, an NPD marriage, out of that into another, no family to turn to who would give you validation. Voicelessness.
All the best, and thank you again for your post.
Hermes
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Dear Leah;
I agree with you: there is no excuse for rudeness.
All the best
Hermes
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"""Dear Carolyn, I hear you, although I disagree entirely. No offense is taken, Carolyn.
I have never seen anyone attacked so persistently on this board before. Have you? What you are dismissing as `overidentification' is what I see as outrage, empathy, and hearing someone when they say it hurts.. """"
Dear Bella:
Thank you again.
Yes, you put your finger on it. The word "persistently" is what I was looking for. That also perplexes me, and also why I was singled out.
I am thankful to Carolyn for her reasonable posts, and I see what she is saying.
But, I am not at all still sure what the underlying reasons are for the attack. I can understand someone saying: "I don't like what you said". But I am perplexed about the en masse attack, as if several were just waiting for one to launch an attack and then join in.
Even if people are hurting about something, they would not IMO launch this sort of attack. I still think there is some other problem, but I doubt if I will be told.
I think I will survive LOL.
Hermes
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Hi, Hermes,
Since it's difficult to convey tone in text here, I want to preface this by stating that I'm not angry. upset, frustrated, or annoyed in any way at the prospect of conversing with you.
If I were, I would choose not to speak at all.
I hope that you will think on that last sentence for a bit.
If I were feeling aggravated or furious or highly emotional in any way toward you, I would choose not to post to you at all.
That is simply my own internal structure/personality/style - - whatever it should be called - -
but the bottom line is the same - I would most likely not engage you in discussion.
Others are not so inclined.
We are each and every one different in temperament and style.
And here comes a statement at which I feel you may choose to take offense, so I'll add another disclaimer: To some measure, this is how I am, and so I freely admit to a certain amount of projective identification here...
Hermes, I feel, sense, and think that you are not accustomed to emotional discussions.
You seem to be informationally oriented and not keen on dealing with the feelings which can be roused by the information exchanged.
Another disclaimer: The above is not to state that anyone, anywhere, has a right to abuse, slander, attack, or defame you. It is simply an observation.
I am now prepared to deal with any emotional fallout from the above - from you.
From you, Hermes - - I would like to talk with you about how you feel about it... and not talk with anyone else about how they feel about it, at this point.
And here comes a very direct statement, written with no malice: That means, I don't want Bella (whom I love and appreciate deeply) to come here and tell me how she would feel if she were you.
And I don't want anyone coming here to agree with my observations in supposed support of my position...
because I have no position here. I am simply trying to talk with you, Hermes.
I am glad for you that you have had validation from Bella. Truly, I am. I do not see matters in exactly the same light as she does, and yet I have felt deeply the experience of standing here absolutely alone and naked, with zero support, and I would not wish that on anyone. Please know that I am not trying to deprive you of needed support. I am rejecting any support for myself on this thread, as well, because I believe that it contaminates the field of discussion and most likely would only bring about a reformation of battle lines and a resurgance of attacks.
Hermes, this is the part of what you said which I think warrants further discussion, if you are willing:
"Having said all that, and you ask how I feel. Well, I suppose perplexed is the answer."
Whatever route may be necessary, and however long it takes - to get to that feeling and unwrap it... I'm willing to travel there with you to do that, Hermes.
The first stop on the map as I see it is in your quote here, which I've taken the liberty to copy out of sequence:
"... it must be awful, dreadful, and I can see that it would lead those persons to be untrustful of others...
I am totally on the side of the abused person...
... Perhaps, given that everyone on here is an adult, I suppose I expected adult responses, and I do not mean this sentence to be picked up wrongly. Please!"
How can I pick up that sentence rightly, Hermes?
Please tell me what it means... when all I learned about maturity, from my mother, is to look down my nose at other people and dismiss those who don't measure up?
For over 40 years, (on edit: oops, I'm not that old - - let's say for over 30 years) I operated quite successfully as a fake adult.
Now I'm getting a handle on the real thing... but I'm not finished yet... and I did not have anything near to the level of abuse which some of these folks here have endured.
So... May you and I discuss this? Could you and I converse without an entire chorus of onlookers chiming in?
I hope so.
I'd certainly like to find out! :)
Sincerely,
Carolyn
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Hello Carolyn:
And again thank you for your post, which I do appreciate. I am quite sure Bella will have no reason to make any statement here, mainly because I do not feel your post attacks me in any way.
What I am saying here are questions, asking for answers. And that is fine. You are not telling me to "clear off" or that I am some sort of undesirable element here.
Yes, of course everyone is different in temperament and style, and that IMO makes people interesting. Now, even we pragmatists have a place in the world. No, I don"t think "emotional" discussion would be my forte, but discussion about emotions, yes. And none of that means I do not feel deeply for the pain of others, I do, and just to mention that here, in real life, many people have said I can tap into what they are feeling, and help them in many ways. Again, the written word, just here on a cold screen, is not easy to interpret fully IMO.
Again, if I give information (I expect you mean things like links, articles, etc.?) it is because a) someone might ask where such information might be found, b) I feel that information is so important to understand and be validated, and c) some of those writers can express themselves better than I can.
I think I would never have made it back to "myself" after the N-trauma if I had not applied reason to the awful situation, and asked others to do the same. I will just explain, very briefly: in that hospital room, I went into the bathroom, looked in the mirror, say that grey-faced, wan stranger looking back at me (I weighed about 7 and a half stone), and something fired up in me. The day before, and that morning, a nurse had helped me take a walk around the corridors (helped ME), because my knees were buckling under me. Next day I checked myself out of the hospital, and got on my case of getting me back to me. I did not want people being emotional with me, I needed to get back on the road (had to make a living for one thing). I located a therapist, and told him (I was paying him) to help me get back "there". I did not want to hear, "oh, how awful for you", or to get into conversations about feelings. I felt awful, that was the truth, and no wonder. It is not that I didnt wish to talk about feelings, or emotions. I had not that much money then, therapists are expensive, and I only had so much time.
Now, this does not mean everyone might want to do what I did. I am merely giving this little slice of the experience to show how I think. And after my experience of course I am on the side of the abused person. But being on their side does not mean I may ALWAYS know the right thing to say. And maybe I do say something and it is taken up wrongly. I want to know what am I supposed to say. Sure, I can do the "there, there, dear" stuff. No problem. But is that what people really want?
You see, life is very short (stating the obvious here), and maybe, just maybe, it is possible to also look briefly (and maybe reject) the way I might see a way forward out of the quagmire. Objective folks can be helpful too sometimes....
Could I also just say, and I know too well myself how expensive psychs/therapists are, that there is no substitute for that kind of "real life" support. But, but, ...the therapist may not (if he or she is at all honest) tell one what one wants to hear.
Anyhow, hope some of this makes sense. I"ve been on the road all day practically, and now need to write up notes and stuff.
All the best
Hermes
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Post deleted because of new "sock puppet" rule.
Richard
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Hi, Hermes,
For now, I only want to acknowledge your post and thank you so much for replying again.
Just returned from work myself, with a bit of a headache and a load of chores, but will try to read more thoroughly when my brain simmers down and I'm better able to formulate a response... hopefully, later this evening (which will be middle of the night for you, I know).
Anyhow... thanks! I look forward to conversing with you about many things and I appreciate your acceptance of my invitation to "chew the fat", as they say. I'm not so good at it, but would really like to learn.
Happy note writing!
Sincerely,
Carolyn
P.S. I am not the person named Guest just asking, although I did ask you at one time what might be your goals in participation here.
As I recall, your reply was something to the effect of: "Must one have a goal in order to participate?" So I didn't ask again... and would probably not do so.
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Dear Guest:
Sure you can ask. Anyone who wants can ask me anything, and all I can do is answer to best of ability.
In reply to your question: I suppose something of both. Because of my experiences I would hope to have something to offer. But, you know, help can be misconstrued, and is often not accepted.
Secondly; don't we all need help, sometimes?
I did put up some posts on other threads about "voicelessness" in my life. It is not easy, and it is very hurtful to read that I made up those experiences. I only wish they were made up.
I hope this answers your questions.
All the best
Hermes
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Sure.
Thanks Carolyn for replying at the end of your day. And you will see my reply to "guest".
Maybe it ISN'T always necessary to have a goal in doing something, IMO. Sometimes, in real life, I do something just to see where it will take me. It kind of takes away from the goal-oriented day or working and stuff.
It is very, very tiring to always be on guard, if you understand what I mean.
One thing I am regretting very deeply is having (in response to requests here) posted some items about my personal voiceless experiences. I assumed good faith, so I wrote those posts. I am very hurt indeed to read that I made them up!!!!
Thanks again, Carolyn.
Best wishes
Hermes
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(((((((Hermes))))))) It never, ever occurred to me that you made them up. Truly.
I am sorry that you've been hurt.
I am sorry that others have been hurt, as well.
My feeling is that this is one very massive personality clash... and when I can be more assured that I won't mis-speak, I'll try to say more about that, as appropriate.
With love,
Carolyn
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Dear Bella:
Thank you again.
Yes, you put your finger on it. The word "persistently" is what I was looking for. That also perplexes me, and also why I was singled out.
I am thankful to Carolyn for her reasonable posts, and I see what she is saying.
But, I am not at all still sure what the underlying reasons are for the attack. I can understand someone saying: "I don't like what you said". But I am perplexed about the en masse attack, as if several were just waiting for one to launch an attack and then join in.
Hermes
Today I am speculating thats its the `language' thing, Hermes. Perhaps it reminds people of some of the N-trolls that have been around here.? There was one a few months back who was very intelligent, & especially eloquent. And she hurt a lot of people, very deeply. So combine ` being new' and `language' and `Intellegence' and `Eloquence' and perhaps that is quite a triggering combination of personality traits for people on this forum? Understandably so, when know some of the history here.
I can feel empathy for those fears ( if they do exist and I'm not `over-identifying' ) , but I do not share them. I was a 101 member afterall, lol. N-trolls everywhere, and the forum was run by an N. So a great number of members were `pragmatic' and `objective' speakers and careful not to expose their vulnerabilities to others who had not yet earned their trust. And its also the natural consequence of havng your feelings triggered over and over, and then used against you each time. You tend to get better at hiding them, to avoid the pain of being manipulated and wounded.
So many members were like that -shell-shocked- and I spoke using the same language. But I have probably softened quite a bit over 8 years. But only a bit.
Its a bit of a stale mate, IMO. People want to see you `Belly-up', but they have not earned your trust. My argument is that peple should stop attacking you, but noone seems to think thats good advice. So I'm out of ideas, lol.
Have a good evening, Hermes.
X bella
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It's OK. Carolyn. Truly!
Maybe it is just that. A personality clash.
And maybe Bella is also right, in that I might have been mistaken for some "troll" who visited the board at some earlier time. I think that might be it. Maybe some thought I was someone else.
Anyhow it is now late, time to get some rest. I may have to be away for some days, just waiting to be told tomorrow.
Bye for the moment, and thank you again.
All the very best
Hermes
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Hermes, thank you. I am walking on some eggshells of my own, and that's nothing to do with you.
I really do believe it's a matter of personalities locking horns on the heels of alot of talk about trolls... and nothing more sinister.
After reading Bella's post, I'd like to say for myself that I have zero interest or desire in seeing you go "belly up"... and I strongly doubt whether anyone else does, either. But that's only my feeling and perception.
Honestly, I am feeling that Bella's posts somehow render any thought I might express as null and void... and that is indeed my problem, because I'm not getting that sort of feedback from you at all... yet I feel like I'm not being allowed to simply talk with you. So - - I'll work through those issues of my own and just wish you good, safe travels (if you are called away) and look forward to visiting with you again soon.
Sincerely,
Carolyn
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Dear Carolyn,
I am embarrassed and upset with myself for causing you to feel that way. Hermes addressed a post to me specifically, so I responded to her. I do feel that she wanted to discuss it with me, and that is why she addressed me and I answered.
Yesterday, what I thought what you were asking me to do was to not respond to posts that you directed at Hermes. And I have respected that, I feel.
if you are asking me to not speak with hermes, or respond to her when she addresses me, I have to answer `No' to that.
Your voice comes across, Carolyn. It is wonderful to read your posts; they are fair, reasonable, and compassionate. I don't share all your views, but I do not expect you to, share all mine, ever. Please do not shut down. You are valuable. Your voice is a special one.
X bella
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((((((Bella))))) When I read your post here last night I was tired, annoyed and, admittedly, a bit angry, too. For that reason alone, I did not reply at that time... thank God. Anyhow, thank you for your kind words... and for hearing my feelings beneath them. I really was about to shut down, and not only for one night.
Of course you should respond to people when they address you, which Hermes did - before my post in which I expressed a desire to be able to speak with her sans your interjections.
And now I'm thinking that she likely was called away for a few days, as she'd anticipated, so... I'll hold off until she gets settled back in... but just wanted to acknowledge your post, and give you hugs. I really do appreciate you alot.
Love,
Carolyn
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Dear Carolyn,
Hugs back to you:) I did not read your posts which were obviously addressed to Hermes, as I saw them as none of my business after you asked me not to respond to those types of posts. But i saw Hermes question addressed to me, and she seemed to want a bit of support just then.
It is true that we do disagree on some recent discussion topics, Carolyn, and some of your suggestions regarding my `pathology' are immensely hurtful and highly discrediting. So I do really understand what a struggle it can be to disagree without feeling totally shut down, discredited, hurt, and misunderstood. I feel the same way right now.
But I remind myself, its just a difference of opinion. And you are entitled to express yours too. I think your language is always non-abusive and compassionate, and I respect you for this. I think you show great care for me, and I am also grateful to you for that.
I appreciate you too Carolyn. I suppose its just hard to disagree with a person you really like. I think it takes discipline and grace to resist lashing out or nagging them into seeing your point of view to gain a sense of being understood (as is my weakness) . Its very hard for me too, but i don't think I've expressed that to you before now.
Thankyou for hearing me, Carolyn.
love and hugs to you,
Bella
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(((((((Bella)))))))) I hear you... and in light of the timing here, I want to state clearly that my post to Dr. Grossman has nothing to do with any thoughts on my part of asking you to refrain from posting on threads I start. Nothing at all. You are welcome to post on any thread I initiate, at any time... my request here re: my attempt to converse with Hermes was an isolated incident.
Love,
Carolyn
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Thanks so much for saying so, Carolyn. You are an incredibly sensitive person.
X bella