Voicelessness and Emotional Survival Message Board
Voicelessness and Emotional Survival => Voicelessness and Emotional Survival Message Board => Topic started by: Gabben on April 28, 2008, 03:01:35 PM
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Lately, I have been thinking about the therapy work I did with Nsaint and the lies she weaved through my mind.
I can recall the very first time I met her and how she was so full of flattery and charm, leaving a remarkable impression on me. I also realized that I felt easy in her presence; as if she was the most completely non-judgemental person I had ever met. But now I realize that she was really was not interesting in discerning my character or gaining insight into who I was because I can see that she was sizing me up and trying to discern if whether or not I could be a source of suppply for her. Hindsight has perfect vision. It reminds me of the painting by François Lemoyne titled: Time Saving Truth from Falsehood and Envy.
Understanding manipulation and the ways that I was not at fault is making it easier for me to get Nsaint out of my life. However, I was told that my betrayal trauma might take at least a good year, without closure, and another 6 months with closure. I am not banking on closure.
I'm sorry -- one of these days I'll be past Nsaint.
Manipulation
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The way narcissists (and psychopaths) interact with others makes them extremely potent manipulators. How potent? So potent that their powers of manipulation are spooky and seem downright magical.
How does the way they interact with others make them such expert manipulators? Because practice makes perfect, and they have been practicing the art of manipulation in every interaction since birth.
Indeed, in playing to the mirror of your face, that's what they're doing, isn't it? Manipulating you. Everything they say and do is entirely for effect, to get the reaction they want from you. That IS manipulation.
They're regulating, manipulating your reactions. But you aren't like them. Your reactions come from within. So, what are they ultimately regulating and manipulating? Your thoughts. Manipulation is mind control.
Manipulation is a subtle thing. So subtle that we are usually unaware of being manipulated, unless the manipulator blows it and breaks the spell. So, manipulators are putting thoughts into our heads that we think are ours. A very dangerous thing.
Since a narcissist isn't acting on normal human premises, since all he is doing is playing you for the reaction he wants, truth is irrelevant. Truth or lies — it's all the same to him. Whichever works. Usually that's lies.
It would be more correct to say that there is no such thing as truth to a narcissist. Because there is no such thing as truth when playing Pretend. That's why narcissists and psychopaths beat lie detector tests. (In fact, so do many people from "shame" cultures where lying to save face of oneself, one's family, one's tribe, and one's religion is considered morally necessary and expected.)
Psychopaths are known to get so good at manipulating people that, by the time they're teenagers, they routinely fool and manipulate mental healthcare professionals, judges, prison officials, parole boards, and social workers who know they are psychopaths, are on the lookout for attempts to manipulate them, and should be immune to manipulation.
It isn't a matter of intelligence: it's a matter of practice, experience. This is because most of what transpires in interaction happens too quickly to think it through.
In playing to the mirror of your face, the narcissist receives a steady stream of your feedback to the steady stream of words and body language he sends. He continuously reacts to every nuance of it in "real time," if you will. A sideways glance from you might make him alter his choice for the next word in the sentence he is saying. Or his facial expression or tone of voice. Or it might make him take a step closer to you.
So, no matter how cunning a manipulator is, he isn't consciously analyzing your every slight reaction and fine-tuning his act to it. I say that because he can't be. That would be impossible, because no one could think that fast.
He must be relying on a lifetime of experience at this game, reacting habitually in certain ways to certain things he observes in you on the fly. In other words, this manipulation must be rather like the act of hitting a forehand in tennis.
You cannot consciously think your way through the stroke. Too many things are happening too fast. In fact, you will botch your stroke and be lucky to even connect with the ball if you try to consciously think your way through with "Watch the ball ... bend your knees ... keep your arm straight ... keep your head still ... step into the shot ... et ad infinitum." Well, that's exaggerating a bit, because there are only about 100 instructions I could list for hitting a forehand ;-)
You can't think that fast. No one can. So, you must practice that stroke enough under varying conditions to program the unconscious centers of the brain to execute it virtually automatically. When you net your shot or hit it out (provided you note how far off the shot was), your "program" is revised to get the bug out.
This phenomenon is called Natural Learning. It's how we learn to walk and talk.
That "program" isn't just a fixed set of muscle commands from the brain. It's an interactive program like a computer program. Because no two forehands are the same. Yet the more you practice, the better your forehand program, and the more effectively it faithfully produces a good forehand under widely varying conditions. You have only to make the major decisions, such as where and how to hit the ball: speed, spin, and placement. But Natural Learning is so powerful that even tactical decisions become virtually automatic in advanced players. Hence the best players in the world do very little conscious thinking while the ball's in play.
The power of Natural Learning is also illustrated by comparing experienced drivers with young drivers. Young drivers have no experience, so they must think their way through problems. Result? Crash. But with the same problem an experienced driver has no problem. He or she spontaneously makes an intuitive, instinctive move faster than the speed of thought. Result? No crash.
When playing to the mirror of your face, that must be what a narcissist is mostly doing — relying on a lifetime of experience that allows him to react instinctively to every bit of feedback he gets from you. That's how he fine-tunes your reactions into the feedback he wants. Rather like turning the knobs on a short-wave radio.
This is manipulation. And it's occurring faster than the speed of thought, because a narcissist has had so much constant practice at drawing the look he wants that most of his "moves" are virtually automatic.
This is why, I think, narcissists seem like machines with their knee-jerk reactions to things. But those reactions aren't knee-jerk reflexes: they are learned through experience to the point that they become habitual as second nature.
This is also why, I think, we tend to overestimate the intelligence of narcissists, psychopaths, con artists, and other manipulators like dictators who con their way to power. We think they must be brilliant to be so manipulative. But even a stupid narcissist I knew was extremely manipulative. Their skill is the fruit of constant practice at manipulation in every human interaction.
But it doesn't pay to underestimate them, either. That same practice makes them extremely observant and perceptive. Over time that will improve their intelligence, at least some aspects of it.
In fact, they are much more observant and perceptive than they seem. That's because all they're interested in is what they can use. So, though they block out much, what they do choose to see, they see very well. They are interested in your reactions, not you. So, they probably are more aware of how you react to things than you are. But the only information about you they're interested in is what that can use to exploit you. The rest they filter out of consciousness = forget.
So, never think that you are too smart to be manipulated by a narcissist, psychopath, or con artist. You aren't. And you surely can never beat one at his own game.
That's nothing to be ashamed of. It just means that you are an innocent who hasn't spent his or her whole life practicing the black art. So, you won't win that game.
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Don't apoligize, Lise...
It takes a long time, I think, to accept we have been duped. I consider myself fairly astute at reading people, and I have been tricked. I always need to see how it could have happened - what did I miss? Or why did I swallow what I knew was untrue????? I understand 100% and your information will help others here.
Love, Beth
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I'm a smart guy, and I fell into one of these traps. I don't like to think of myself as duped, just unaware. I spent my whole dealing with people who occasionally do bad things but would feel guilty about it on some level... I did not know there were people out there who operated differently. Because I've my own weirdness, I've spent my whole life fascinated with psychology text books. And I read them up and down trying to find out what was happening in my relationship and passed over the answer probably two dozen times not recognizing it for what it was. It took many years before I realized I was being abused. Sure, all my efforts were wasted, but I did the same thing everybody else does...
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Don't apologize, Lise...
It takes a long time, I think, to accept we have been duped. I consider myself fairly astute at reading people, and I have been tricked. I always need to see how it could have happened - what did I miss? Or why did I swallow what I knew was untrue????? I understand 100% and your information will help others here.
Love, Beth
Thanks Beth -- I needed your kind words today.
My goal lately has been to practice patience despite the pain of the situation and my desire for justice. I am trying to swallow that justice may never come in this situation and I am thinking about how I can handle that.
Reading books, that are not psychology oriented, novels, and watching movies has really helped.
I've put myself in triage for a month after the PTSD that showed up a while ago, God knows I need it. As soon as I feel better I'm going to start hitting a lot of meetings...they will help keep me humble.
Peace,
Lise
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I don't like to think of myself as duped, just unaware.
I think it is both...we get duped because we are unaware.
Thanks for your post Darren. I'm glad that you are still hanging here, working to process.
Lise
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I don't like to think of myself as duped, just unaware.
I think it is both...we get duped because we are unaware.
Thanks for your post Darren. I'm glad that you are still hanging here, working to process.
Lise
You're welcome! Thanks for sharing... its good to know I'm not alone in the kinds of things I've been through.
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But now I realize that she was really was not interesting in discerning my character or gaining insight into who I was because I can see that she was sizing me up and trying to discern if whether or not I could be a source of suppply for her.
Exactly!! Not a bit interested in who you really are, but satisfied with a glimpse... maybe because that glimpse reflected enough of herself that she felt entitled to claim ownership and define the rest of you, according to her (not so good) pleasure. That sort of love which is a mile wide, but only an inch deep... and the moment it's convenient, you become the dumping ground for all her unwanted traits, as she tries to force you to own them, so that she can continue in denial. Yuck!
That's hurtful enough when it happens in a supposed friendship, but for a therapist/counselor to use people that way.... it's criminal. All I can say is that God must have known that you are strong enough to overcome all these challenges, Lise, by His grace, and to come out the other side with a wisdom and compassion that'll never fail. That's my hope.
Love,
Carolyn
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Hi Darren,
I can relate to the frustration of having had the knowledge right under your nose but having passed right over it...me, too. It took many, many passes before I realized that the power of my own fantasizing was overwhelming, enough to help me get stuck and stay stuck in so many yearning-states over people who couldn't love me or were unavailable.
Hits home. I hope not to do it ever again but think I should always stay aware of my propensity for "making it up."
hugs
Hops
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Gabben,
You may have read this already. I always say I can smell manipulation. After all these years, reading this article makes my stomach churn. It was a huge breakthrough when I understood that a lie is at the heart of narcissist behavior. Believing the N's lie is at the heart of voicelessness. Have you read In Sheep's Clothing? This article is an excerpt from it. Here's the link.
http://www.rickross.com/reference/brainwashing/brainwashing11.html
tt
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Gabben,
You may have read this already. I always say I can smell manipulation. After all these years, reading this article makes my stomach churn. It was a huge breakthrough when I understood that a lie is at the heart of narcissist behavior. Believing the N's lie is at the heart of voicelessness. Have you read In Sheep's Clothing? This article is an excerpt from it. Here's the link.
http://www.rickross.com/reference/brainwashing/brainwashing11.html
tt
Dear tt,
Great article... thank you so much for providing this link!
As disturbing as the content is, I know that it's absolutely vital for each of us to be aware of these techniques and tricks of aggressive manipulators. As they guilt, connive, shame, blame, distort, and finagle their ways through life, we can be prepared to guard our own hearts against them!
To me, the following is one of the most disconcerting, insidious aspects of these manipulators behaviors:
"Vilifying the Victim – This tactic is frequently used in conjunction with the tactic of playing the victim role. The aggressor uses this tactic to make it appear he is only responding (i.e. defending himself against) aggression on the part of the victim. It enables the aggressor to better put the victim on the defensive.
Returning again to the story of Jenny and Amanda, when Amanda accuses her mother of "hating" her and "always saying mean things" to her, she not only invites Jenny to feel the "bully," but simultaneously succeeds in "bullying" Jenny into backing off. More than any other, the tactic of vilifying the victim is a powerful means of putting someone unconsciously on the defensive while simultaneously masking the aggressive intent and behavior of the person using the tactic."
But I see now - - - as we refuse to bend over and receive the abuser's strap, as we reject the offense and do not pick it up, then we'll not take the defensive track and thereby the manipulator's true motivation will become clear to all.
This is great news :D
Love,
Carolyn
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Hi Darren,
I can relate to the frustration of having had the knowledge right under your nose but having passed right over it...me, too. It took many, many passes before I realized that the power of my own fantasizing was overwhelming, enough to help me get stuck and stay stuck in so many yearning-states over people who couldn't love me or were unavailable.
Hits home. I hope not to do it ever again but think I should always stay aware of my propensity for "making it up."
hugs
Hops
Yup, yup, I found myself making many excuses for people where there really were none. I'll never really understand how I got targeted for manipulation though. My biggest question when it all start was "why me?" and that it just didn't make any sense. When I ran across my ex I had no money, no job, was about to be homeless... I had tons of issues and wasn't really going anywhere. Somewhere deep inside I knew I was being used, but I didn't believe it because... there was nothing about me at the time that was worth anything. I still can't exactly figure out what she was using me for.
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I'll never really understand how I got targeted for manipulation though.
Hi Darren,
You got targeted for manipulation because that is what people who manipulate do is project there behavior that they are disowning onto you.
Manipulators, N's etc., accuse you of the very thing that they do themselves. It is so dang twisted and so frustrating.
It is like Carolyn says..."as we refuse to bend over and receive the abuser's strap," we have to learn to know ourselves and if we know what are own behavior is then when others project their dirt onto us we can see and shield ourselves better.
That is part of why I was unable to see N-saint's projection, I had not come to the point of seeing myself or knowing myself as well as I do now.
Lise
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I'll never really understand how I got targeted for manipulation though.
Hi Darren,
You got targeted for manipulation because that is what people who manipulate do is project there behavior that they are disowning onto you.
Manipulators, N's etc., accuse you of the very thing that they do themselves. It is so dang twisted and so frustrating.
It is like Carolyn says..."as we refuse to bend over and receive the abuser's strap," we have to learn to know ourselves and if we know what are own behavior is then when others project their dirt onto us we can see and shield ourselves better.
That is part of why I was unable to see N-saint's projection, I had not come to the point of seeing myself or knowing myself as well as I do now.
Lise
Yes they do! That is also one of the things that frustrated me that I have trouble letting go of. I got blamed for her actions and a lot of people fell for it. I did learn to shield myself from it, but not from the normal people who accepted her projections as real life. Its still affecting me. Thats something good to think about... I think maybe letting go of it has more to do with me knowing who I am more than it does others knowing who I am.
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Gabben,
You may have read this already. I always say I can smell manipulation. After all these years, reading this article makes my stomach churn. It was a huge breakthrough when I understood that a lie is at the heart of narcissist behavior. Believing the N's lie is at the heart of voicelessness. Have you read In Sheep's Clothing? This article is an excerpt from it. Here's the link.
http://www.rickross.com/reference/brainwashing/brainwashing11.html
tt
Love that book! I own it. It is a good quick easy read. Actually, before I started researching narcissism I came accross that book and was convinced that Nsaint was just a manipualtor. But that still did not account for all of the other unanswered questions I had so I went searching more and found about N's and P's...I think she is somewhere in between, if that is possible?
tt -- I am so glad that you can smell manipulation! There are so many people fooled by N-saints lies, power, her saintly facade it makes me question myself and wonder if people like you, who can radar dishonesty, are far and few in between.
One of the memories I have of N saint that always helped me when I was questioning, was listening to her give a talk at my church. She was trying to recruit people for her prayer ministry. A week before her talk she rehearsed it in front of me. She ended her talk with these most curious tears I had ever seen....my gut jumped and told me immediately "those are fake!" but I just could not believe in a million years that anyone would fake tears for a Godly cause or, fake tears regardless, how naive I was.
So then the next week she is at the church doing her actual talk and right towards the end there were those tears again; I said to myself "wow...right on cue," shaking my head in doubt. However, I gave her the benefit of the doubt,I told myself "she is just a superwonder of a caring soul."
N saint used to complain that our pastor would never look at her and that she felt shunned by him. Now I know why, he definitely knew who she was.
Keep that bull**** detector tuned tt! :D
Lise
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Yes they do! That is also one of the things that frustrated me that I have trouble letting go of. I got blamed for her actions and a lot of people fell for it. I did learn to shield myself from it, but not from the normal people who accepted her projections as real life. Its still affecting me. Thats something good to think about... I think maybe letting go of it has more to do with me knowing who I am more than it does others knowing who I am.
Dear Darren,
Your post helps me today more than you know. It is so hard to move past the N's in this life, is it not? I can say that many people have fallen for N saints lies about me, it hurts and it is frustrating, just like you say so I know what you mean and how it can still affect us.
This is a growing point, or what today feels like a jumping off place, I have to jump away my ego and pride that want to feed off of what others think of me even when those others are not my true friends. I am facing that fact, harshly, that no one can define me. For me, it is painful though and not easy to grow away from pride and ego...bleh! Especially when we had to grow up in an environment that was loveless or without much love.
Some days are better than others, correct?
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Hi everyione,
Link for this article: http://fitfare.net/2007/05/25/dealing-with-manipulative-people/
Last month, I wrote about Dealing with Toxic People. Since then, I have had a request to tackle an equally important type of person that affects the lives of everyone: manipulators.
Who are they?
Manipulators are not necessarily as easy to point out in your life as toxic people. The reason being is that not all manipulators are toxic. For example, there are some people who know how to use their powers of charm and charisma to haggle a great price at your local flea market. In a sense, they are manipulating the situation, playing on weaknesses, and harnessing their talents, to get something for themselves. Everyone tends to end up happy usually, and no one gets upset. In these cases, while the person may be manipulating the situation to their advantage, it is not necessarily in a way that negatively affects others.
However, people who manipulate others are, in fact, toxic to your health and they can be at times difficult to spot. I have narrowed down the most common traits you would find in those that manipulate you or others below.
The Phony
Nothing about this individual is true in nature. They smile to your face, laugh at your jokes, agree with your ideas, and appear to be extremely chummy with you. Meanwhile, they are laughing at you, talking about you, and betraying you at every turn to anyone and everyone else if you have unknowingly crossed them. They instigate problems with you and others, only to leave you wondering how the problems began in the first place. This character also parades themselves touting their high morals and principles, devotion to their religion, or truth in their words. They may also try to appear wealthier than they may be, or happier with their lives than anyone else.
The truth about the phony is that they are anything but what they say they are to you. Never take their word for it, see it in their action and that is where the truth will be.
The Sweet Talker(Controller)
This person knows how to talk their way into anything. Seemingly innocent in nature, they tend to take the role of ‘nice’ person often. They are cordial, friendly, and polite and leave a positive impression upon you initially. These people tend to be difficult to figure since they are not necessarily as obviously fake as the phony.
This individual is the one that knows how to influence everyone into making a choice that is favorable to the sweet talker. He or she may be able to sway a group to eat at her choice restaurant or see his choice movie. This extends beyond being a decision maker, but also playing a leading role in any situation. These people cannot share the spotlight or the power and feel threatened when anyone in any situation (work, family, group of friends) starts to get noticed. They then sweet talk their way into being sure that no one takes away their role as leader or decision maker.
The Deceiver
Those that use deception at will to gain control or power are the deceivers. A clear way to notice a deceiver is when you catch them in their own web of lies. This, however, can be very difficult to do because they are such pro’s at deceiving they are able to cover up any suspicion by casting doubt on you yourself.
Things they may say to try and fuddle you can be: “I didn’t say that, I said….” or “Actually, I told you that this is what happened, don’t you remember?” or “Oh yeah, but then this happened and then that…”
They are quite good at covering their tracks and it proves to be difficult to nail them unless you have another person to verify and fact check.
The Distorter
These people live in their own fantasy world. They make up anything to prove their point, whether its true or not, and they believe it to boot! It is strange to imagine what goes on in their heads, but ultimately its one the of the hardest types of people to reason with. In fact, these are the people that create wild stories to give the impression that they know everything about everything.
The reason why a distorter can be dangerous is that if the person they are talking to does not realize they are speaking from a twisted sort of reality, then every word they say can be held as truth. Rumors start from these type of people, and they spread quickly.
The best way to handle this type of person is to simply take anything they say as a grain of salt.
The Victim
I saved the victim for last because I believe these are the worst type of manipulators. I say they are the worst because they will do anything in their power to get everyone to believe they were wronged. They never take any responsibility for any problems they may be involved in and always look to blame someone else. They have no respect for others, but demand respect for themselves. When you point out their inconsistencies, they accuse you of being just like everyone else and continue to bemoan their neverending sorrows.
If they have ever felt unhappy with someone, they call and speak to everyone about it and do their best to turn whoever they are speaking to against the person they have angst against. If possible, it is best to cut all ties to the victim or distance as much as you can. Close ties with this drama queen type will only increase stress in your life.
Recognizing the traits is the first step
A good manipulator is a combination of any of these above. It’s rare to find just a phony, or just a victim. Typically, a good manipulator has all of their traits rolled into one. Pay close attention to people you suspect are manipulating you. You may begin to see patterns and can distinguish how their personality ties in with the above mention qualities.
Once you have recognized what you are up against, you have a few ways to handle it.
1. Call them out. Let it be known that you see their behavior and will no longer succumb to it. This by far is the most difficult way to approach it. Once you have revealed their true nature to them, they will do anything and everything in their power to guilt you, upset you, turn everyone against you, and try to make your life miserable. Calling them out will threaten the manipulator and only make them come at you stronger and harder.
I would only recommend calling one out when they have been tormenting you for a long period and you are ready to let go and move on. This method cannot work in an office setting with your boss where you need to continue working in the same place. Appropriate times to do this can be when you are ending a relationship or friendship. Be sure though to expect a harsh backlash to this method. The manipulator will make you feel so guilty or miserable for saying anything and if you cannot handle this, then move on to other options.
2. Ignore them. It is not easy at first, but if you try to ignore the attempts to make you feel guilty, or control you, they may end up just leaving you alone after a while since its too much work for them to even try their tactics on you. Pretty soon they will move on to someone who is easier to lead.
3. Distance yourself. This is easier said that done of course. If the person manipulating you is your spouse or parent, picking up and moving away might not be an option. However, those that are able to distance can simply cut back on spending time with this person.
Who are they?
Manipulators are not necessarily as easy to point out in your life as toxic people. The reason being is that not all manipulators are toxic. For example, there are some people who know how to use their powers of charm and charisma to haggle a great price at your local flea market. In a sense, they are manipulating the situation, playing on weaknesses, and harnessing their talents, to get something for themselves. Everyone tends to end up happy usually, and no one gets upset. In these cases, while the person may be manipulating the situation to their advantage, it is not necessarily in a way that negatively affects others.
I personally do not agree with the blogger that these types are non toxic. I believe that if haggling, as in the flea market scenario, ends up in a win/lose, then one of the people has been manipulated in a toxic fashion. Greed under the guise of good natured haggling is still greed. I'm aware that flea marketers, car salesmen, and other types set the scene to accommodate haggling. That's not what I'm talking about. I'm talking about the person whose goal is to always make sure that the other person loses. Get my drift?
tt
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All I can say is that God must have known that you are strong enough to overcome all these challenges, Lise, by His grace, and to come out the other side with a wisdom and compassion that'll never fail. That's my hope.
Love,
Carolyn
Dear Carolyn,
Thanks for your hope, at least someone has some hope for me today. I do not feel hopeful. It hurts today, it just hurts. I awoke with aching pain at all that I lost. The most painful thought is knowing that Nsaint feeds off of the joy of her sadistic revenge....she really deep down loves knowing that I hurt because of her.
The thing is that now that I have completely disappeared from her range I think that she will have to find a new target to dump her envy and aggression on. Now that I am out of sight I bet her work does not seem as fullfilling as it was when it was in my hands...she reminds me of a toddler who wants a toy only because another plays with it. She will see someone playing with another toy want it, grab it and then move on from it when she sees another toy that looks better. Is it wrong for me to want her to get canned? Is wrong for me to want her to lose her license? I think that I am no better than her if I am looking to take pleasure in her fall that will eventually come, it will.
I have never wanted vindication so much, to be free from her accusations and lies....want, want, want. Am I a toddler? I am wondering if God is trying to tell me something. Some people never get vindication. So, perhaps God wants me to look for my truth in His eyes and His eyes alone. I can do that but today I am actually angry with God. This is more than I could take.
My parish, my reputation, my beloved ministry work. These were the things in life that mattered to me most...she took them. Yesterday I felt that I could move on, today I feel stuck in the anger and pain. Today is a dark day....will the light ever shine on this situation? I know that I am good but it hurts to be so rejected.
I am lamenting over my losses...this is my psalm song :(
Lise, in need of hugs.
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Lise, in need of hugs.
{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{HUG}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}
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Carolyn,
Lately I have been turning to the old testament for comfort, David's psalms:
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My God, my God, why hast Thou forsaken me? Why art Thou so far from helping me, from the words of my groaning? O my God, I cry by day, but Thou dost not answer; and by night, but find no rest.
Yet Thou art holy, enthroned on the praises of Israel. In thee our fathers trusted they trusted, and Thou didst deliver them. To Thee they cried, and were saved; in Thee they trusted, and were not disappointed.
But I am a worm, and no man; scorned by men, and despised by the people. All who see me mock at me, they make mouths at me, they wag their heads; "He committed his cause to The Lord; let him deliver him, let him rescue him, for he delights in him!"
Many bulls encompass me, strong bulls of Bashan surround me; they open wide their mouths at me, like a ravening and roaring lion. I am poured out like water, and all my bones are out of joint; my heart is like wax, it is melted within my breast; my strength is dried up like a potsherd, and my tongue cleaves to my jaws; thou dost lay me in the dust of death. Yea, dogs are round about me; a company of evildoers encircle me; they have pierced my hands and feet - I can count all my bones--they stare and gloat over me; they divide my garments among them, and for my raiment they cast lots.
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Does that not mirror my song :lol:
Or the short version, "My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?" of Psalm 22:2
The thing is that as Christ was dying on the cross, suffering, He called out "Father forgive them for they do not know what they do." There has not been a day that has gone by that I have not called that out too.
Some days forgiveness reigns in my heart -- somedays I am human, like today, but at least I am not a P or an N :D
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Lise, in need of hugs.
{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{HUG}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}
That was a good warm hug :D :D :D :D :D THANKS!!
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Lise, hope tomorrow is a better day for you. ((Hugs)) seasons
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All I can say is that God must have known that you are strong enough to overcome all these challenges, Lise, by His grace, and to come out the other side with a wisdom and compassion that'll never fail. That's my hope.
Love,
Carolyn
Dear Carolyn,
Thanks for your hope, at least someone has some hope for me today. I do not feel hopeful. It hurts today, it just hurts. I awoke with aching pain at all that I lost. The most painful thought is knowing that Nsaint feeds off of the joy of her sadistic revenge....she really deep down loves knowing that I hurt because of her.
The thing is that now that I have completely disappeared from her range I think that she will have to find a new target to dump her envy and aggression on. Now that I am out of sight I bet her work does not seem as fullfilling as it was when it was in my hands...she reminds me of a toddler who wants a toy only because another plays with it. She will see someone playing with another toy want it, grab it and then move on from it when she sees another toy that looks better. Is it wrong for me to want her to get canned? Is wrong for me to want her to lose her license? I think that I am no better than her if I am looking to take pleasure in her fall that will eventually come, it will.
I have never wanted vindication so much, to be free from her accusations and lies....want, want, want. Am I a toddler? I am wondering if God is trying to tell me something. Some people never get vindication. So, perhaps God wants me to look for my truth in His eyes and His eyes alone. I can do that but today I am actually angry with God. This is more than I could take.
My parish, my reputation, my beloved ministry work. These were the things in life that mattered to me most...she took them. Yesterday I felt that I could move on, today I feel stuck in the anger and pain. Today is a dark day....will the light ever shine on this situation? I know that I am good but it hurts to be so rejected.
I am lamenting over my losses...this is my psalm song :(
Lise, in need of hugs.
(((((((((((((((((((((((Lise))))))))))))))))))))))) I just now saw this.
I'm so sorry you woke up with all that weighing down on you. I know it hurts. Sometimes I feel it myself, about various situations/people.... and it's almost like falling into a pit filled with.... well..... poo. A Poo Pit.... yeah, that's it.
I hope you know that it's okay to be angry with God, Lise. He can take it. Sometimes I get stuck in wondering why the wicked do prosper... but then I remember where I was - and who I was - and all that's left is gratitude for Him not leaving me there.
Anyhow, I do not believe that He's doing these things to you in order to teach you some lesson. God is not the one who steals, robs, and destroys. So just consider the source and don't give that nasty old coot the pleasure of seeing you down in the dumps. How's that for a pep talk? Corny, yeah... but that's how I have to talk to myself when I get like that, Lise.
The more I practice just standing on Jesus, the shorter the duration of my own little "precious moments" :P Biggest help I know is remembering back to all the times before when the Lord lifted me up out of that pit... and I know He'll do it again, never ever giving up on me... or on you.
Love,
Carolyn
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Hi Lise,
I join the others in saying I'm sorry that you've been hurting so badly today.
You haven't indicated that it was, but I hope I didn't overload your thread with too much information on manipulation. I know that sensory overload can happen so easily when it has to do with our most vulnerable selves. Even after having passed through what I think has to be my worst years, feeling manipulated just undoes me. Still! I understand your feelings so well. I thought about sharing a shake down in my own church setting where I feel that I am on to a hidden agenda of a person I will probably end up thinking of as Nsaint, to coin your term. I don't like the feeling of having to watch out for her and be diligent in assessing her behavior, but that is exactly where I am now. I so understand how you are feeling. I have purposed to keep my cool and be an observer of my antagonist's behavior. Honestly, in a way, I find it amusing. A couple years ago, it might have been enough to drive me into the church underground. Not now! Whew! some of these protracted battles get wearisome don't they?
Kindest regards,
tt
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The thing is that as Christ was dying on the cross, suffering, He called out "Father forgive them for they do not know what they do." There has not been a day that has gone by that I have not called that out too.
Some days forgiveness reigns in my heart -- somedays I am human, like today, but at least I am not a P or an N :D
Still catching up on reading here, Lise.
Yes! There is power in calling out to the Lord... a power which trumps emotions. I keep telling myself, Lise... every single day, cry out! Call upon the Lord! It's not a religious thing, at all.
It's simply because I know that the days when I don't are very long, very bad ones. Those are the days when I give in to the siren call of weak faith and flounder around like a fish out of water.
The truth, as I know it, is that the human heart is deceitful and feelings lie. Anybody who says that he never feels bad or has a negative thought is a liar, imo.
What puts me to sleep each night is the assurance that the One on the throne of my heart has seen it all... and He knows who belongs to Him... and it don't get no better than that :)
There's a devotional that came to my email today which speaks of the Psalms. I'll post it over on the What Helps board, if you might like to read it. It's just those Psalms which got me through the end with NPD-ex. Great faith-builders, they are... sure and true.
Love,
Carolyn
P.S. (((((((tt))))))) I really enjoy your posts. Good going on handling the current church person/situation! Nothing new under the sun, eh?
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Hi Carolyn,
Actually it wasn't an action of the lady toward me that put me on alert. It was that I noticed what looked lto me like scapgoating her daughter at church one night. I mentioned it here about eight months ago. Not more than three weeks later, the daughter ran away from home, and took up with a boy not even old enough to go into the military. Now there is a baby. You know how the story goes. The lady got elected to head up a ladies group in our little church. She has facilitated two meetings so far. She sometimes says the oddest things and in both meetings, she has directed one of her odd statements or questions to me. Still, it isn't her odd comments directed at me that I am most concerned about, it is that as much as I didn't want to, I had to acknowledged that she indeed was scapgoating her daughter that night almost a year ago at church.
tt
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tt,
I feel funny to ask, because this is likely something on which I'm supposed to be able to connect the dots, but I'm not understanding...
it's clear that this woman scapegoated her daughter back then because... the daughter ran away from home shortly thereafter?
I mean, sometimes kids run away from rules... even when the home is loving and supportive.
Anyhow, there's likely alot more to the story of which I'm unaware, but I just know how easy it is to assume that we know what's happening in someone else's life/home and be totally off base.
Carolyn
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Hi Carolyn,
There is a lot more to the story. Things I don't feel free to put here.
And you are right. Kids do run away from homes where there are wonderful, involved parents. I didn't mean to imply that all run away kids do it because of bad parenting.
What I was implying is that my first clue that this woman was a 'controller' was witnessing her scapegoating her daughter. That was the event that got my attention and put me on notice so to speak. Now the second daughter has run away. I never noticed the mom scapgoating the second daughter, however.
My being in this woman's company is not a threat in any way personally. I'm a little amused at the thought of having the unenviable ''opportunity' or chore of witnessing a 'controller' in action with complete detachment. That's a skill I learned in the recent past. :D
tt
PS Carolyn, I was so undone the night I witnessed the mother scapegoating her daughter that I did write about it here eight months to a year ago. I also, without mentioning names, asked a couple of my trusted friends what if anything I should do. It would have been hard for anyone to give me an answer without having more information than I felt the freedom to give. I live in a very small community and attend a very small church. It was a case where I wanted to do something but was held back. Then the daughter ran away from home with the boy.
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Thanks, tt. As a mother who was once scapegoated by her daughter, I'm just aware that there is often soooo much more to the story than meets the eye.
In that situation, it's taken 9 years (mainly because of my own plodding course) to get to the root of the issue and clear the air of old stenches.
My being in this woman's company is not a threat in any way personally. I'm a little amused at the thought of having the unenviable ''opportunity' or chore of witnessing a 'controller' in action with complete detachment. That's a skill I learned in the recent past.
I hear you there! :D And... ditto! Feels like the fence of those boundaries is in place and functioning well, without much conscious thought at all.
Still, the gate creaks a bit when opened and closed, but it's not nearly so traumatic as in times past!
Such an odd sensation to recognize some of the same old tricks and not be torn to shreds by them....
a great feeling, and yet loaded with deja vu and, at times, shades of old tremors.
Love to you,
Carolyn
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I join the others in saying I'm sorry that you've been hurting so badly today.
You haven't indicated that it was, but I hope I didn't overload your thread with too much information on manipulation.
NO -- I enjoyed reading it. Knowledge and info can help take the edge off Nsaint's lies like a good glass of wine used to.
My pain is just one of the days of taking a few steps back. I felt that I had completely regressed into my anger. But then this morning I awoke with peace...go figure, sometimes I feel that God throws me around like a rag doll, but all for His and my own good. This year of trials and tribulation is really God's way of refining my soul and preparing me for service in some self-less realm, all for His glory of course!
I thought about sharing a shake down in my own church setting where I feel that I am on to a hidden agenda of a person I will probably end up thinking of as Nsaint, to coin your term.
Funny -- I have a feeling there are many Nsaints out there. Perhaps there is a finer line than we think between the neurotic and the saint :P But please share your story, if you feel the need to; hearing about your Nsaint would be refreshing.
I have purposed to keep my cool and be an observer of my antagonist's behavior.
Lord knows I need to coin this phrase......... :|
Not now! Whew! some of these protracted battles get wearisome don't they?
Yes...LOL, I actually had the wisdom to consider just not fighting, now that is growth :D
Peace to you.
Lise
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My being in this woman's company is not a threat in any way personally. I'm a little amused at the thought of having the unenviable ''opportunity' or chore of witnessing a 'controller' in action with complete detachment. That's a skill I learned in the recent past. :D
tt
PS Carolyn, I was so undone the night I witnessed the mother scapegoating her daughter that I did write about it here eight months to a year ago. I also, without mentioning names, asked a couple of my trusted friends what if anything I should do. It would have been hard for anyone to give me an answer without having more information than I felt the freedom to give. I live in a very small community and attend a very small church. It was a case where I wanted to do something but was held back. Then the daughter ran away from home with the boy.
tt -- this would be hard to witness and I could see how it would leave you feeling quite powerless. God definitely allowed for you to witness the scapegoating behavior of the mom for some reason.
My mom did the same thing to me when I ran away or was taken away from the home at 15. Eventually the courts decided against my mom and in favor of me living with a safe foster mom. The decision brought very little joy, only peace in the knowledge that I no longer had to endure her daily abuse. My mom still refused to acknowledge that she was guilty any bad parenting.
Today my mom has confessed to so much of her abuse towards me as a child. Is that not a miracle? I think that people saw and prayed. It may not happen right away but if enough people witness the pain, wrongs and suffering of others then enough prayers might just perhaps be the ticket to turn things around.....one day.
Lise
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Yes, Gavven,
I was a compassionate witness. But even now, I don't know what else I could have done expecting positive results. I could have pointed a finger, made a scene, gone behind the mother's back to the daughter and others, but I don't think it would have improved the situation.
Once my own life settles a little, I hope to be mor outreaching in my church community. I used to facilitate small groups, but with my Mom's frailties, I've had to back burner a lot of used to's.
Prayer. Yes!
tt