Voicelessness and Emotional Survival Message Board
Voicelessness and Emotional Survival => Voicelessness and Emotional Survival Message Board => Topic started by: Twoapenny on May 15, 2011, 01:04:01 PM
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Hi guys, can I ask another question of you all?
Sorry, I know I'm asking loads of questions at the minute but I am struggling to work certain things out and I feel like I need to see my T every day at the minute!
I mentioned a while ago that I'd kind of met a guy. He's someone I knew when I was younger (school age) and we lost touch, then met up again fairly recently. I felt very safe with him, we chatted for ages, I didn't feel odd/awkward/concerned around him like I usually do with men.
Anyway, this was a couple of months ago. He lives a three hour drive away which is probably a good thing for me because it means having to take things slow. However, this is tortoise pace! We've been chatting on the phone every day, often for an hour at a time. He also tends to text me to say good morning and good night, which is really sweet (and I've told him I really like this). He's been saying he's going to come down and visit but hasn't arranged anything yet. He has friends down here he can stay with so he could come for a couple of days and see his friends/family as well as the two of us getting together. However, he keeps saying he will but nothing has been organised and when I've asked he's said soon but can't/won't be more specific. I can't go up there for another month because of money and my son so it's been feeling like we talk on the phone but nothing more than that will come of it. Also it was me that went up there last time; I don't want to get into a childish sort of 'it's your turn now' but I do feel that as I've made the effort he ought to as well, particularly as it's very early days.
The last couple of days I've hardly heard from him. He'll reply if I text but isn't texting as he normally would; I called him yesterday and he didn't really have time to talk, said he would call later and didn't. I knew he was working today so I've left him alone as I know he can't use his phone at work, but I am now feeling the odd/awkward thing that I normally have around men!!
I don't know what 'normal' is? I don't know if I'm just being silly/over-reacting or if I'm picking up "I'm not interested" signals that I should be taking notice of. I would like to ask him how he's feeling about where things are with the two of us next time I speak to him but I feel like I want to leave the ball in his court now as I've felt he's not so keen at the mo and I don't want to keep pestering him - maybe he's a bit screwed up like me and needs a bit of space from time to time?
I really don't know how 'normal' people do this stuff so any thoughts or advice from you guys would be great. Thank you!!
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Hi Two,
See if this approach has any merit or appeal. If I were the one who posted here asking basically the same questions you're asking, what would your response be?
I almost never respond to questions about dating and romance on the board because I feel unqualified. So in the above, I'm shooting in the dark. I know it's hard to wear the other hat (as I'm suggesting) in a situation like the one you describe.
Dating is about choosing, not being chosen. That's what Dr. Laura says and I think it's true.
tt
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I'll just whip out the BIBLE of early scary stages in relationships for you...it is worth skipping a meal to get this book, Tupp!
A Fine Romance, by Dr. Judith Sills
It will help. I swear.
xo
Hops
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"He also tends to text me to say good morning and good night, which is really sweet (and I've told him I really like this). He's been saying he's going to come down and visit but hasn't arranged anything yet. He has friends down here he can stay with so he could come for a couple of days and see his friends/family as well as the two of us getting together. However, he keeps saying he will but nothing has been organised and when I've asked he's said soon but can't/won't be more specific. ....... it's been feeling like we talk on the phone but nothing more than that will come of it. Also it was me that went up there last time; I don't want to get into a childish sort of 'it's your turn now' but I do feel that as I've made the effort he ought to as well, particularly as it's very early days.
The last couple of days I've hardly heard from him. He'll reply if I text but isn't texting as he normally would; I called him yesterday and he didn't really have time to talk, said he would call later and didn't. ...... but I am now feeling the odd/awkward thing that I normally have around men!!
I don't know what 'normal' is? I don't know if I'm just being silly/over-reacting or if I'm picking up "I'm not interested" signals that I should be taking notice of. I would like to ask him how he's feeling about where things are with the two of us next time I speak to him but I feel like I want to leave the ball in his court now as I've felt he's not so keen at the mo and I don't want to keep pestering him - maybe he's a bit screwed up like me and needs a bit of space from time to time?"
Hi two,
I used to feel the way you have described: what is normal? I can't understand this guy: his actions do not reflect his words. Where do I stand? What can I/should I do? Am I doing something wrong? Is he doing something wrong? It all makes no sense to me, I'm very confused.
I'm no expert, but I've read a lot of books & done a lot of therapy, so this is what I think: This guy's words do not accurately reflect his actions. He says he'll come visit, but he does not. He texts you morning & night, but now he's not communicating with you. You don't know what he feels or where you stand because he's not communicating with you. To me, at the very least, he sounds passive-aggressive.
I think an underlying question/issue is why are you tolerating this behavior? You know you want & deserve better treatment, we all do. So, what is "it" within you/me/us that allows us to accept/tolerate bad treatment/bad behavior? A big part is our lack of self esteem/self worth and thinking we don't deserve better.
Here's a great article called "Warning Signs That You're Dating a Loser" by Joseph M Carver, Ph.D.
http://mental-health-matters.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=171
To gain insight as to why we tolerate & accept this type of behavior, I recommend the book "The Betrayal Bond: Breaking Free of Exploitive Relationships" by Patrick J. Carnes
http://www.amazon.com/Betrayal-Bond-Breaking-Exploitive-Relationships/dp/1558745262
Also, take a look at the books Dr. G has posted on this web site. I think many of them are very helpful
Hope this helps.
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Hi TT,
I'm like you, I would think I'm not qualified to answer! When it comes to men I am like a teenager getting ready to start dating; I don't have a clue and a lot of what I've learnt already is messed up and I need to try and erase it from my memory! I like the approach of seeing what you would advise someone in the same situation though :) Hops, I have ordered that book so hopefully I will be an expert by the end of next week ;)
Ann, I think the underlying problem with me is that I feel so damaged and peculiar around men that I cannot for the life of me imagine a decent one wanting anything to do with me. I've had quite lengthy discussions with my T about this; I feel like I need to give blokes a list of all my faults so that they can bail out quick asap. I've been trying not to do this with this guy. Up until now things have been nice and very different to other guys I've been involved with in the past. He's been very sweet and caring, he's made me feel very safe, I've really enjoyed chatting with him and have found talking to him interesting as well as funny. But.......the lack of action with regards actually meeting up has been bothering me and then this whole thing over the weekend has left me reeling. He's sent me several texts this evening which I haven't replied to; I don't know what I want to say yet so I haven't said anything. I think the whole not being good enough thing is a problem and I so like someone being nice to me that when they stop I immediately wonder what I did and try and make them be nice again, which is a pattern I've been trying to break for years and do not want to get into again. I feel like this same thing happens to me with every man I go out with (which is why I haven't done it much for a long time!). Lots to think about! Thanks x
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Hi Two,
Yes, I understand what you're saying & to me, it sounds like this immediate predicament is a manifestation of a larger issue. This is why I recommend the The Betrayal Bond book because I think it could help you see the bigger picture. I wish you all the best.
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But.......the lack of action with regards actually meeting up has been bothering me and then this whole thing over the weekend has left me reeling. He's sent me several texts this evening which I haven't replied to; I don't know what I want to say yet so I haven't said anything. I think the whole not being good enough thing is a problem and I so like someone being nice to me that when they stop I immediately wonder what I did and try and make them be nice again, which is a pattern I've been trying to break for years and do not want to get into again.
Twoapenny - I think you are right on the mark to be bothered about the things that are bothering you. The big red flag to me is that YOU have already gone there and he has not made a plan to come where you are. This is particularly bothering when he has a place to stay.
How great would it be if you could rewrite those internal messages about not being good enough with "I am better than this." You are better and you deserve better. Don't fall into the trap of thinking, even for one moment that you need THIS guy. If something shifts and it is worth persuing a relationship - GREAT. But let HIM come to you with an explaination of the shift. If he doesn't - it would be a sign that you can't expect him to be straight forward and up front. Even - maybe - especially at this stage, you should only be seeing things that work for you and appeal to you. These two issues are not small. They are big. It is hard to imagine moving towards a relationship with someone who does not seem to be planning to come to see you. That seems like a big indicator right off the bat. And the shift in communication without acknowledgement or explaination is worrysome as well.
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Hi Two,
Still feeling unqualified (disclaimer :lol:), but wanted to add that almost everyone has 'issues'. He may not have been forthcoming about his, not that he's required to at this stage. I guess I'm saying that he may be trying to protect you from some known (to him) issues/insecurities (yes, men have them too) in his own life. On the one hand, he may want to move forward in the relationship while at the same time feel terribly 'unfit' because of who he thinks or knows himself to be. I think I'd back off a mite, give him more rope and allow him to reveal himself (or not) at whatever pace he desires. Treat him as if he is a very interesting and well written novel that you want to read slowly as your busy schedule allows. As the novel unfolds, so will the main character. As he is revealed, YOU will know whether he is loathsome or adorable and worth your while.
tt
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Hi again Ann, thanks, I will order that book as well, I will have plenty to read to keep my mind off things :)
TT and GS, I think/hope I have done things in a way that leaves the door open should there be a positive change. I don't want to be in a situation with someone (anyone) where I don't really know where I stand and spend time wondering what has happened and why they are/are not doing something. Texting in particular is so quick and easy I don't understand how anyone can not have time to text; it takes less than a minute to at least tell someone you won't be in touch for a couple of days and it stops all the wondering on the other person's part.
Anyway I have written a text to him this morning basically saying that I think I should have spoken to him about the situation to find out how he feels and re the lack of actual contact because I've now found myself in a situation I'm not comfortable in and I feel I've not been realistic about the two of us. I've not said that I want to see him/speak to him again or that I do not; I thought if I left it very open then it leaves the ball in his court; if he is having a few 'issues' himself then he has a chance to say that now or do something about it, if he is just chatting with me and has no intention of taking things any further then I feel I've put down the 'get out of jail free' card and things can be left and we can both move on.
I feel like if I ask anyone to do anything for me - even something as simple as visit - then I feel I'm being demanding. Equally if I expect phone calls or text messages I am expecting too much (an ex boyfriend told me I was impatient and demanding because I got cross when he didn't return my call for almost a week). I have got to start getting some simple basics in my head and working on making them feel normal. I think it was the change that bothered me the most; if he'd always been a bit rubbish at phoning and texting I wouldn't have got involved with him anyway but he's been so attentive and then suddenly vanished for 24 hours at a stretch. I feel a bit like I've been reeled in and now I'm caught he doesn't need to try. I'm hoping I'm wrong, but I did realise last night that rejection hurts me so much that I've been putting off asking the questions in case I don't like the answers.
Anyway, I haven't sent the text yet, I will wait a couple of hours so if anyone thinks its a terrible idea let me know! Thanks all, I do feel better for having 'talked it through' with you, another step forward on the journey and hopefully have learnt some good lessons I can use next time around. Thank you :) xx
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(((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((TwoAPenny))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))
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Dating is about choosing, not being chosen. That's what Dr. Laura says and I think it's true.
It might be true, once we're "whole" people and it's a valuable practice for anyone who's got FOO issues... but I gotta weigh in on this quote, and say that I know for sure, that deep-deep-deep down I WANT to be CHOSEN. It's those attachment/abandonment issues, for sure. Still - as popeye says - I yam what I yam. And it helps ease up some of the confusion, when I recognize this and accept it about me.
Sure, I believed that I was very picky about relationships and men... high standards & all that. Underneath even my own awareness... I was being driven to be CHOSEN. I think that word, is what struck me in the quote... I wanted a guy to say, demonstrate and go the distance of his own: "I want you".... and for a simple feeling of trust to respond to that... and have everything be OK.
And it pervades all my relationships - a Mother's Day card from hubs' D, that has a note - thanks for being you - written in it... it means a LOT to me, that she's making that gesture and telling me that. My hubs' family... D's friends... new acquaintances...
and it all derives from those attachment/abandonment issues - the FOO and their delusional world - and how I didn't belong there, and therefore I made the mental mistake of thinking I didn't belong anywhere. Totally not true. Another mistake I make, and I have a friend who is this way... is when I've been disappointed in an interaction with a friend - I withdraw and keep that person at arm's length and get in a snit over it. I don't just say - oh hey where'd you go? I miss you... or let the person know I hoped that I'd hear from them at certain intervals, or whatever... and that's the old "voiceless" - afraid to ask for what I want - and I'm permitted to have these feelings and let the other person know and help come up with a solution. I learned that relationships have "rules" and they are rigid and inflexible (though completely unpredictable and undefined)...
... but I think I'm learning (I hope so at any rate) that there aren't any rules; interactions between people can be very flexible... casual... informal... loose. At least, with some people I'm noticing this.
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Tupp,
Real quick, in case it helps -- Judith Sill would say, do not send that text.
Because what's happening is okay. It's normal, and it doesn't mean bad/scary things necessarily.
Can't wait for you to read that book...if you can hang on, and read it before you make any more statements to him, you may be glad...
xxoo
Hops
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Anyway I have written a text to him this morning basically saying that I think I should have spoken to him about the situation to find out how he feels and re the lack of actual contact because I've now found myself in a situation I'm not comfortable in and I feel I've not been realistic about the two of us.
What a great move! That makes so much sense.
PS - I posted this before I read Hops post. It just makes sense to me. I want to make it clear that I didn't write this just to say the opposite of Hops - really.
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Bonesie, thank you for the hug (((((((((((Bones))))))))))))))))
Phoenix, I think it's this old thing about desperately wanting to be wanted that is a big problem for me - I so want someone to take away that awful feeling of no-one caring that I think it has an influence on most things I do. I also, like you say, don't tell people that I've missed them/wished they'd phoned/had remembered to do something - in fact I hadn't realised that until I read what you wrote. It's never occured to me to do that, I've always felt I have no right to expect anything from anyone so I shouldn't ask or mention it in case I make them feel bad. But now that you've flagged it up it's actually quite nice if someone says "I missed you yesterday, why didn't you come?" You're showing them you want them in your life as well as actually mentioning that they didn't do something without it sounding like a criticism. I think this may be my new thing to practise, I hardly ever tell peple if I'm upset they didn't call or something.
Hops - too late! I sent it this morning. But.............we've swapped a few texts; he has said that he is aware my life is pretty tough and he has a few problems of his own so he wanted to take things slowly and not add to my problems - I'm not sure what those problems are and whether or not they would be a problem for me. But he has said he didn't realise it was so slow it made me think he didn't care. He said he doesn't want things to end before they've really begun so we are going to have a long chat later on and be honest with each other. This is very new territory for me, I have never had an 'honest' chat with a man before. I don't know how it will go and what will happen but I feel this is a step in the right sort of direction, but I really want to read that book now!
GS - I feel like either way now I have done things I haven't done before - I've asked for advice, I've taken a bit of time out to think about what I need and what I want, I've tried to communicate that and hopefully later we will have a chat about it - even if the outcome is that we call it a day now I feel like I've moved a step closer to life making a bit more sense. Anyway I will let you all know what happens later! Thank you everyone :)
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Morning all,
Well we have had a conversation! We are both looking for similar things, both scared of the same things and have both kept quiet for fear of scaring the other one off. We've both agreed we need to talk more! We have now made a definite plan for him to come and visit (in the next two weeks) and to talk properly about what we want, where we'd like this to go and what we both need to do with that in mind. It's the first time I've ever had a conversation with someone and not been told the whole situation is my fault or that I'm being unreasonable/demanding/impatient etc. So where it will go from here and what will happen is anyone's guess but I do feel that I have had my first ever adult conversation about a (possible) relationship with someone who has at least listened, responded and made some effort to move things in the right direction. Am trying to focus on a day at a time but I feel happier than I did over the weekend which is a good thing! Anyway thank you everyone for all of your help and I'll keep you posted! xx
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Hey Tap and everyone,
It's been ages I' ve been to this board.
First of all, so happy all is sorted.
I am definitely not qualified to offer love advice ( :lol: :lol:) but remember that during the first years in CODA I came across a book called Addiction to Love (don't remember the author, bought it from amazon). In this book the therapist describes the 'normal' scenario and pace of a romantic relationship and as far as I remember it was a)tortoise pace and b) really, really different from what I've experienced before (and since) I read it.
In few words the author says that there is courting, friendship, then getting intimate/romantic, then deciding to see each other exclusively. What I found odd when I read it was the going from courting/flirting to friendship rather that what I was used to which was flirting, jumping to bed, making silly and irrational demands right from the start (and sometimes from day 1!)
It seemed great and lovely just to be able to read that at least you,us,I, have the possibility of such a balanced relationship.
Your guy seems pretty caring and ok!
Much love
P xx
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((((((((((((Persephone)))))))))))))
Good to see you back! I will add that book to my Amazon order, now have three good reads to get stuck into. What you describe - flirting, bed, silly demands - is (was) me to a T, usually under a fog of booze and drugs as well. As I've been off the booze and drugs for so long I've just had no idea how you do it without being under the influence. So tortoise pace/friendship/intimacy/talking is all new ground for me, and maybe for him as well?
Anyway, I am trying to focus on it as a learning experience and not to try and push it too much - just let it open and see what happens, as TT describes with reading a book. Am also trying to relax a bit more in general and not keep pushing/punishing myself so much. New, new ground but I am trying really hard.
Good to see you back hope all is well with you :) xx
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Yay, (((((TwoAPenny))))))))!!!!
You go, girl!!!!
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This is very new territory for me, I have never had an 'honest' chat with a man before.
It will be OK. Really. It will be more than one chat... and it will provide you with a whole new way of seeing "men" than you might've had in the past. With any luck, this guy will be one of the one's who is not afraid to show you his feelings - talk about them - so that you will be able to see the "real" person inside - and what you were attracted to, in him, inititally. Sounds like it might even be an adventure for both of you!
Hubs and I did this - very, very differently from other men I'd known previously. It took many days... months... to finally hear the whole story. Hubs has "layers" to him, the outward personality with the usual male ego... an incredibly sensitive and open and charming set of southern manners (I guess because he's so secure within his knowledge of his own SELF)... he is a grown-up little boy: fun-loving, sweet, caring and tender - his feelings are easily hurt by my armadillo shell & manner of going through life like an armored vehicle.... yet he's always got my back, protective, helpful (if I'm letting him help that moment)... and yes -- he was also dealing with problems that he didn't want to share with me or get me involved in. That was a new concept right there - he wasn't dumping it on me...
Maybe if you think of this "getting to know you" stage as a safari - an exploration that requires a caravan of necessary equipment, skilled cooks, hunters, mountain climbers and you're venturing out into the wilderness together... to discover whatever is there (no predetermined "goal" - just to go)... maybe that'll help.
The other piece of advice is something hubs and I agreed on, very very early in the life-revealing conversations. We agreed that no matter what happened with our relationship in the future, that we'd remain friends. We'd both been divorced twice... and we'd already been casual friends for years; liked each other, helped each other in certain situations. I think this was a very important agreement between us... it has room for us to be angry with other within the definition of friends... and to makeup; forgive; and try to understand the other's point of view... and respect our differences. I guess that's boundaries, in our sense of the word.
One of the first stories he told me, was about when he was 17... his dad died of a brain aneurism. I didn't know about the "contents" of my own grief then - but I immediately "connected" with him in that place; I knew - that he knew - and we'd be able to even walk through that place - together. And he knew... that I knew the feelings that go with that... and would "keep on keeping on" to the best of my ability.
I will keep my fingers crossed for you, Penny... maybe you too will find someone like this; maybe it's this guy... maybe it's another... but it will be OK.
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hey TaP,
The author of the book is Susan Peabody. She even mentions Narcissism but I was unaware of these issues back when I read it.
Just remember that you deserve love - don't we all do??! - and to relax and enjoy the process!
xxx
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Thank you, Bonesie ((((((((((((((Bonesie)))))))))))))) :)
I've got a bit mad on Amazon and ordered all three books suggested here and another called Heal Your Shame by John Bradshaw, which sounded quite good as well, so will be spending a lot of time reading over the next couple of weeks.
Phoenix, I think one problem I have is that I prefer talking face to face to talking on the phone, which we aren't doing at the minute! I'd really like to spend an afternoon with him and talk to him properly, without any interuptions. It sounds like you and your hub have the balance right! I understand what you are saying about that connection because of a shared experience; this guy has had a similar upbringing to me and I think that sort of thing gives you an ability to talk that you can't have with someone who comes from a lovely family and who doesn't really 'get' the whole thing.
It is making me realise how insecure and needy I am, which I have always hid from myself in the past. I've always come across as being very strong and not needing anyone and always convinced myself that is how I am. It's not true! So I am going to try and focus on making myself more confident and feeling better about myself, which I think is easier said than done!
Thank you Persephone, have ordered that book as well - I recognise her name so think I may have read something else by her but can't remember what? Will probably come to me in the middle of the night, as these things do sometimes :)
Thank you everyone :) xx
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((((((((((((((((TwoAPenny))))))))))))))))))))))))
To add my opinion, for what it's worth, John Bradshaw is a GREAT writer! He's also a survivor of a very dysfunctional family so he gets it about the struggles that other survivors have. I first came across him on a PBS program titled: "Bradshaw On: The Family". I have a copy of his book of the same title. I think that started me on my road to healing when I was finally able to start NAMING what was going on. (I didn't know how to verbalize it otherwise.) A few years later, he came to Washington, D.C. and offered a weekend workshop, which I was able to attend through a miracle. (I couldn't afford it on my own.) That brought about more healing! (It's an ongoing process, I know.) During that workshop, when he opened the floor to questions, I had the opportunity to share what NWomb-Donor had been doing to me and my NBrother. (I didn't know about Narcissism at the time.) Mr. Bradshaw commented that there were TWO types of child sexual abuse...OVERT, (which I was PAINFULLY familiar with), and COVERT, (which was what NWomb-Donor was constantly doing to me while trying to convince me I was crazy and retarded). Talk about EYE-OPENING!!!!! :shock: :o WOW!
Bones
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Happy reading Tap! x
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BTW, (((((((TwoAPenny))))))))), I have Bradshaw's other books as well including Healing the Shame That Binds You. The Healing the Shame book was required reading for graduate school. Happy reading!!!!
Bones
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Hi all,
Thanks for all the reading messages, my books are due any day now so will be getting stuck in.
My T really worked me this week! I was shattered by the end of the session it seemed to go on for ever! She feels that my memories, my feelings and my physical experiences are all completely disconnected and that one of the reasons I find it hard to talk about how I feel is because I never did when I was younger so I didn't learn the language of emotions - I don't know what to call stuff (Phoenxi I think you said something similar a little while ago). So she was really pushing me to talk about where in my body I felt things and how I felt at certain times when certain things happened. It was really unpleasant but funnily seems to have unlocked a door and I have been having a really long think about my life, the quality of it and what I want from it (and myself). I think there will be some re-shuffling and re-prioritising going on, but it feels good, if a bit scary.
I am hanging back from 'doing' anything on the man front but we have had some really good chats on the phone and he is coming down the week after next so hopefully we will spend some time together. We have both agreed to be honest about how we feel and if we find after spending some time together the spark is not there as we feel it is at the minute that we will just say that instead of pretending. Feels very odd, I have to say. I can hear my mother mocking me in the background and see her raising her eyebrows about people making such a fuss but I am telling her to MIND HER OWN BUSINESS AND LEAVE ME BE!!! Kind of working but needs more practise. But will keep everyone up to date thank you everybody I don't know what I would do without you! :)
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Thanks, Bonesie :) xx
Half way through Addiction to Love and finding it very helpful, lots of bits in there I recognise in myself, a couple of bits that I have already noticed about my prospective new chap - not worryingly so (yet!) but good to have an eyes open approach I think, and I've skipped to the end and seen there's a section on what a healthy relationship should be like which I think will be very handy for me (and she mentions A Fine Romance in relation to this as well). What has suprised me is that it describes to the letter my mum!!! Had never thought of her in this way before but all the bat crazy behaviour is in there, in all her relationships. Also see it in my old relationship with her and my sister's current relationship. Funny how you notice it once it's pointed out to you. There's a very interesting bit about people using hysteria as a way of keeping control which made me think of all the times she's made false allegations against me - it's generally happened after a row and I've wondered before about it being a way of reigning me in.
Anyway, enjoying the book, finding it helpful, I have Healing The Shame on the bedside table now as well which looks pretty substantial so might need something a bit more light-hearted in between! :) xx
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How about some plain old fiction? I just finished Isabel Allende's "Island beneath the Sea"... and it was completely engrossing. Read anything by her - she speaks the language of emotions and describes emotions well with words. It's like reading the musical score to a symphony, sometimes... all the emotions of the different characters, combined with thoughts, actions and plot. Even when I can't connect to her characters in any significant way... I'm always getting hooked into the narrative and plot. Her "special angle" I guess you'd call it... is of stories of people who've been repressed, suppressed, or even flat abused by society, slave masters, or social norms (like women's roles through history). She doesn't preach and weaves a very rich, complex story.
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You know the saying "rose-colored glasses"? And that it means that someone always looks at things in life positively? Versus the kind of person who always sees a threat, a bad outcome, negativity everywhere? Originally, I was a rose-colored glasses kid. For some reason, it infuriated my mother; she said it "hurt her"... and she humiliated it out of me, every chance she got... until finally I learned to maintain that negative outlook myself - even through self-sabotage, when all else failed. What I discovered... was that I learned to apply a negative description to my feelings - incorrectly; that when I went looking at the feeling itself... what I found were more positive descriptors and adjectives. As if I were being brainwashed to believe that being "excited" and feeling pleasant "anticipation" was instead "anxiety" and "trepidation". And as long as I lived under my mother's roof - it wasn't safe to question or challenge that interpretation. So when I grew up and left - I had a stowaway built into my head - of this kind of fearfulness. It was the wrong description for what I really felt... because to feel something different than my mother SAID I did... was to risk that kind of humiliation again - often in public.
It's like she insisted that I was shy; a loner. But really, I'm not. I crave connection with people - all kinds of people. I like them and like being with them. It's taken a long time to "prove" this to myself - but I'm making progress and no longer automatically reject invitations or overtures from people. And I'm not really as "naive" or "over-trusting" or easily influenced as she told me either.
When we're children, we're usually not permitted to question the parent's opinion of who and how we are. Protests are cut short and considered "talking back" - because they hold absolute power over us. We aren't even allowed to express these natural "selves" non-verbally, sometimes... depending on how controlling the parent is. What really sucks in dysfunctional parent-child relationships like this - where the parent has some sort of PD or mental illness - is that once they've stuck a label on you - it's there forever. In the parent's "world" or "reality"... the child never grows up, out of things, never changes... and they don't even accept the child as an adult. Their relationship (from their perspective) is still one of control... and it's this, I think - along with the self-attributed power to judge and condemn and humiliate and shame someone who is now an adult - that causes us - the children - so much emotional conflict when forced to deal with them...
maybe because if they relinquished the idea of being able to control the people they still think of as children - even with the cruelest means - it would somehow make them "less than" to themselves, somehow... and they fear that more than death, I think...
... just musing, this morning. I get carried away.
When you feel able, would you explain more about how you are experiencing this disconnect between your memories, feelings and body sensation? I'm curious about whether your understanding of this has anything in common with mine... or if our experiences are completely different. Just whenever you think you finally "get it".
Have fun with your new friend, Penny! I think you've both worked out a good plan for being together and having fun and keeping it "safe" for both of you!
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Hey Phoenix :)
What you mention about talking about feelings and giving them the wrong labels rang a bell with me because you mentioned something like it a while ago - not having the words to talk about them in the same way that other people would. I have a hard time talking about how I feel because I just don't know what to call it - my T will often start going through a list of possibles and I'll go, "yeah, that's it!". It's like I can't link emotions and language together, we just didn't talk about anything, ever.
I'll have a go at describing it but it's a bit wobbly in my head so it might not make much sense :?
I have memories, obviously, although there are big gaps. What I often have is a memory but nothing associated with it. No feelings, no reaction in my body, no sensation at all. My T was asking me one time what sort of clothes I liked to wear when I was a teenager, how I chose them, where I went shopping, what my favourite outfits were. I can remember a few bits and pieces I used to wear a lot, usually because something unpleasant had happened when I was wearing them. But it's very scant and there's no feeling or emotion associated with it. Then she asked me about my mum's clothes - I can see her wardrobe and everything in it. I can feel her coats, smell her perfume, I can see her skin cream on the dressing table, feel the weight of the bottle in my hand, the smoothness of it in my palm, I know which items of clothing she kept in which drawers, how she folded stuff. It's literally like I'm back in the room and I can close my eyes and describe every aspect of her stuff in detail. But when it comes to me there's just a haze, no sensation, no feeling.
Then I get what I would describe as physical flashbacks. Put bluntly, I feel as if I am being raped. I can feel weight on my chest, hands on my throat, stabbing pains in my genitals. I feel fear and terror but there's no memory there at all, my head's completely blank and nothing comes, not even a tiny image. Other times though, I get images but nothing physical and no emotion, no feeling. Sometimes I can hear his footsteps on the landing - clear as a bell, although obviously they aren't really there. And it's as if something disconnects, I start feeling scared but then it goes and I'm just numb and the sound gets muffled.
I get really intense feelings sometimes of rage, sadness, frustration, envy - but they aren't attached to anything. I don't know why they're there, or what caused them, or what I'm remembering that's making me feel that way. They can seem to come without a trigger, or be triggered by something tiny that seems really insignificant to me, logically, but obviously matters for some reason.
So it's like all the bits are there, but they're not together, they sort of float around each other - a bit like being given sections of a book in some sort of random order, I suppose, and you don't know what the whole story is so you can't put them together properly. My T has been getting me to write down what's in my head, how I am feeling and where in my body I am feeling it. I have found it very hard, but it's starting to happen. I have constant pain in my neck and shoulders, which I'd never noticed before. I am almost constantly tense, which I hadn't realised, and find it very difficult to relax and switch off. Even if my head is clear, my shoulders and neck are still tense and I often feel sick and get headaches, but for some reason I'd not noticed it and hadn't connected it to all the 'stuff'.
So I don't know if that makes any sense? Or if it's anything like your experiences? Hope you are okay xx
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Yes, sweetie - I'm OK. Life is difficult, very busy, and exhausting right now, but so be it. I've done this before - and know when I've reached the "totally fried" point... and then rest as long as I need to. I'll have time to be a "lady of leisure" again - there's light at the end of the tunnel...
Thank you for trying to describe this "disconnect", right now!! You did a pretty good job, too. I think I understand, anyway! :D
It's very different from my experience, in that I remembered feelings and thoughts instantaneously, when I remembered events. It's like it "all came back" from the pressurized stream of water from a fireman's hose - and yes, it knocked me back on my butt for a good long while. Even so, I still have memory gaps - or "experiences" that seem more like fantasy, like the angel who "rescued" me and sent me back to life, in what I remember. It's almost as if I'd been drugged - in that chronologically, there are huge chunks of time that I really can't account for. Yet other memories are vivid, have input from my senses, and in incredible detail.
Especially when we are children, we have some built-in brain "defenses" that kick in automatically (not by volition or choice) when we are terribly frightened, fear for our lives, or are experiencing something so horribly wrong, that it qualifies as "traumatic". It's quite normal, I was happy to learn!! (I was even afraid it was proof that I was "crazy", like my mom said). Sometimes those end up as the gaps in our memories, or in my case - an "alternative" to the reality I was going through at the time. Maybe the reason for your current "disconnect" is still a self-protective one - it's easier to deal with emotions by themselves... memories by themselves... you know?
Dealing with my own gaps... I found myself doing what I eventually called "emotional forensics"... trying to shift around various "clues" to piece together the most likely narrative - and also trying to find actual confirmation of dates - that chronology of what happened to me when - so that I could at least tentatively reconstruct that whole period of my life. I was completely gobsmacked when I was contacted by a close friend from that era - and since have "friended" many from that year in grade school when it all happened - on Facebook. One has been very helpful with confirming or ruling out some of my random memories from then - things that didn't fit anywhere in the "story", but could at least confirm that I wasn't completely "out of it" during that time. The emotions? Well yeah, for me they were vividly connected to much that had happened. In that respect, I was undeniably "present" through most of it.
Thanks again, Penny. You're embarking on a rewarding journey to reclaiming a bit chunk of your "self", I think.
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Phoenix I've had a couple of times when it's been like you describe - both times to do with being abused and both times it seemed to come out of nowhere and it was the whole thing - the memory, the feelings and the emotion (terror, primarily) all at once. A long time ago now, though, and nothing like that since, so I don't know what to make of that but tend not to think about it too much - I am trying to go with the 'take it as it comes approach' these days. Glad you are doing okayish and hope you get some lady of leisure time soon :)
I have finished Addiction to Love, was very good and definitely something to keep dipping back into, I think. I recognised a lot of myself in parts of it, although I think (thankfully) none of it was a suprise, I was aware of the things I've done in the past, just in that odd state of not really knowing what to do instead. I am still in two minds about new possible chap. He seems to do an awful lot for other people that doesn't seem to be appreciated or even needed, judging by some of the things he's told me. Very much like myself until relatively recently, to be honest! More like him needing to be needed than actually being needed, possibly. Difficult because the knowing when to speak and when to say nothing about that sort of thing is a skill I am still practising so I've found it a bit difficult to know how to respond. He's also told me today that he might not be able to come down when he'd said he would. I just have that niggling feeling that it's fantasy rather than anything that might actually happen. But I am not going to do anything - I am focusing on myself, eating well, resting, I'm doing my house up a little bit at a time, seeing a bit more of my friends than I used to and I think the time has come to try and find some sort of out of the house hobby I can do without my son once a week - a little evening class or exercise group, something like that. Money's always a problem but where there's a will there's a way and all that! But I think it important to focus on me - if he slots in that's great, if not then maybe it wasn't meant to be anyway?
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I've been thinking about this more since I posted. I am aware that I pull away from nice guys - I'm pre-disposed to men that treat me badly. I'm aware that the possibility of an actual relationship frightens me so I often pull away if it looks like I might actually get what I keep saying I want. Those two things keep me in a quandry when I meet a guy and start having negative feelings - I never know whether it's self sabotage or instinct telling me to get out. But what struck me a little while ago is that this guy is making me feel like I don't matter. It's been two months since I went to visit him. He should have been down here by now. I am worth making that journey for, and I do think for the first time in my life I really mean that. To tell me today that he might not be coming is wrong - worse than if he'd told me he definitely isn't, because 'maybe' leaves it all up in the air. I don't like that feeling, it makes me feel insecure, which in turn is what makes me feel like I don't matter. He should have got this organised by now. Someone else said in the thread that his actions don't match his words. I think I see that more clearly now.
I'm not going to cancel on him, just in case I'm wrong about this and I am pulling away for no reason. If he comes down I'll meet with him as arranged and see how I feel after that. If he doesn't come then I think I will look on this as a good experience - I've had some really good chats with a guy I enjoy talking to. I've shown myself I can do proper conversations with men. I've listened to little niggling worries, been honest with him, given him the chance to change the situation if necessary. These are all things I've never done before so this has been a good thing at least in terms of practise if nothing else!
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But what struck me a little while ago is that this guy is making me feel like I don't matter. It's been two months since I went to visit him. He should have been down here by now. I am worth making that journey for, and I do think for the first time in my life I really mean that. To tell me today that he might not be coming is wrong - worse than if he'd told me he definitely isn't, because 'maybe' leaves it all up in the air. I don't like that feeling, it makes me feel insecure, which in turn is what makes me feel like I don't matter. He should have got this organised by now. Someone else said in the thread that his actions don't match his words. I think I see that more clearly now.
Right on, girl! YOU are worth it!
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To tell me today that he might not be coming is wrong - worse than if he'd told me he definitely isn't, because 'maybe' leaves it all up in the air.
Two,
He sounds a bit the Euphemist. How to say what you don't mean?
tt
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Thank you, Ann! The Betrayal Bond arrived today. Read a few pages tonight - explosive stuff! He says right at the beginning that it's a book that many find difficult to read. He's mentioned childhood abuse three times and he's hit the nail on the head on each occasion (where I'm concerned, at least). Very powerful stuff. Think it will be very useful. Thank you.
TT, yes, I think you're right! I don't get the sense with him that it's just a line or sweet talk - I think he probably thinks he means it when he says it but that he's got a sort of imaginary thing going on that doesn't fit with the real thing? Ie the idea of what he's talking about appeals to him but he's not willing/able to follow it through and make it happen? I just think I need to work on filling my life up with other 'stuff' a bit more, so that there isn't a great yawning chasm that should/could be filled a bit with hobbies, friends, nice long walks and so on. Another project to work on!
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Hi Two,
Betrayal Bond is a heavy read, but, it's incredibly enlightening. I think it shows that so much of our negative self image & our under valuing of ourselves was foisted upon us by other people & that we can free ourselves. I hope it helps you as much as it helped me.
Regarding this guy, sounds like you are really listening to your gut feelings, questioning "why do I feel this way?" & then figuring out the situation based on your gut & instincts. That's wonderful. One way we became voiceless was because our parents did not allow us to act upon our gut feelings & instinct.
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Hi Ann,
Thank you, yes, I think you're right. I talked it through with my T yesterday as well, she asked me a few more questions, gave me a couple of "what if" scenarios and she thinks I'm handling it okay as well. I think what's different is that usually I make an immediate attachment, then tie myself in knots fitting around what the other person wants/needs with no sense of who I am or what I want. I think this way is more like it's supposed to be - I've spent some time getting to know him without getting involved or making a commitment (or sleeping with him), I've paid attention to a couple of warning signs, been honest with him, given him the chance to make some changes and then realised he's not for me - I think this is how it's supposed to be?
I didn't contact him yesterday - I didn't want to be the one pushing it or moulding it, I wanted to see what he would do without any input from me (and without me influencing it, something that struck me from what I've read in The Betrayal Bonds is that I can manipulate as well, so I want to be aware of that). He sent me a text in the evening which was quite confusing and I didn't really understand, so all I texted back was that I didn't understand what he meant and I've heard nothing since. I'm just going to leave it and concentrate on myself today, I've had a terrible headache for three days now so I'm hoping it will go and I will start feeling normal again!
Thank you, everybody :)
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Hi all,
This is turning into a bit of a stream of consciousness thread for me at the mo so sorry about that but another thought occured!
I have heard from him today several times and I can see the pattern emerging now - funny how you can see things once they're pointed out to you!
We had the scenario a couple of weeks ago where I explained I wasn't happy and I got reassurances, declarations of deep feelings and promises of change. Nothing has changed, hence my pulling back again at the moment. He's done the same thing again, lots of messages about how much he likes me and wants to see me, how he is hoping he'll be down next week because he wants it more than anything and so on. I have said that he seems to talk about things a lot but not actually do them which he said is probably true - but still didn't do anything! There have been a couple on what he's lost and how sad he is that he's such an idiot and let me go. I've just said that there's no hard feelings but I don't think it's the right time for us, just one of those things and no need to worry about it. It's a shame, I think if he sorted himself out a bit he'd be a really nice guy but my days of waiting for guys to sort themselves out are behind me and I want one now that is already sorted! Or at least well on the way!
I've made enquiries about dance classes; I really need to start doing something for myself so that would be a good place to start. I feel better than I have for a couple of weeks which is funny when you don't realise something's been weighing on your mind until it's not there anymore!!
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How's A Fine Romance going?
That book, more than any other, helped me be healthier about the will-he won't-he of early stages and also helped me not obsess, which turned out to be the main indicator of why I hadn't been in healthy relationships...
xo
Hops
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((((((((((((((((((((((((((TwoAPenny))))))))))))))))))))))
I can relate to what you're dealing with.
Lately, I have gotten a bit busier with things that interest me and didn't bother to tell Mr. Idiot where I'm going, where I've gone, and what I'm involved with. Suddenly, he's gotten more attentive and using his pet names for me i.e. "Darling" and "Sweetheart"! HUH?!?!? :? *Scratching head*
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Hopsie, it hasn't arrived yet, there's been a bit of a muddle with the order so it should be here next week, looking forward to getting stuck in to it!
Bonesie, I think reading 'Addiction to Love' made me realise that there is a lot missing from my life that I am hoping will be filled up by a man. I'm in a bit of a muddle, as I expect many of us are, because I've done my best to get rid of all the toxic people from my life but I haven't replaced them all with non-toxic ones yet! So I think I really need to work on getting a hobby and meeting some new people and work on getting myself feeling better about myself without worrying about getting a guy all the time. Something in The Betrayal Bonds rang a bell for me as well, when he talks about wanting the story or the promise, and then ignoring the warning signs because the possibility of the promise coming true is too good to give up. I think I'm a bit like that, I think in the back of my mind I have this thing that someone is going to come along and make me feel complete. So I think I need to give up on that idea, accept that I have been damaged and may always have to work on myself and tweak bits about here and there and just concentrate on meeting people who might not offer me the world but may at least turn up when they say they will and be interested in some sort of two way communication between us. What I have noticed about my recent almost chap is that, having declared four days ago that he was crazy about me and wanted to see me more than anything else in the world, he has lost interest terribly fast since I have told him I wasn't prepared to keep waiting for him to come down despite my saying that I'd really like to stay friends and stay in touch. Has helped me to see that I did the right thing, this time anyway!!
Hope you continue with your new out and about approach :)
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I can SO RELATE to your insights!!! As I was reading, every fiber of my being was saying: "YEAH!!!!!!"
Bones
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Hey Bonesie, I wish I could relate to my own insights!! Lol, my brain is fine with it all but all my pre-programmed bits have got other ideas!! I find it hard knowing where the lines are - the line between being patient and taking it as it comes and being a mug, or the line between being assertive or being unreasonable, knowing whether my reactions are reasonable or if they're being pushed by other, much older things that have happened in the past, knowing whether alarm bells are healthy indicators of problems or my messed up 'you must never be happy' system trying to mess things up. I spend soooo much time thinking about things and trying to make the right, healthy choices - and then often end up not being sure if I've done the right thing or not. My head is so messy inside!! Lol. Never mind, keep working on it! :)
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Thanks Bonesie ((((((((((((((Bonesie)))))))))))))))))))))))
I've spent the whole rest of the day having a complete meltdown. I have no idea whether what is in my head is me, my family, my counsellor (who at times like this I stop trusting and start wondering if she's just out to get me like everyone else). I can't separate my thoughts from my feelings, daren't get it wrong, I feel like I'm walking on egg shells the whole time just to get through the day, trying to avoid triggers, bad memories, bad feelings, eating or drinking the wrong things, walking or talking the wrong way, spending money, not spending money, staying in, going out - it's like there's not one thing in my life that I know is me, or that I know is right or true or just. It gets into such a jumble and I cried and cried and cried but I don't even know why. I'm massively doubting the situation with this chap now, I've no idea whether I've handled the whole thing the right way or not, I've no idea what the right way is!!! And my book still hasn't arrived! Why do I do this to myself? Times like this I just want to hug my mum because I feel like I really see inside her bat shit crazy head and I can see how she got where she is - she was like this one too many times and her brain just shut it all down so she could cope. It makes me feel like my heart is being torn out again. Sorry. Rambling on xxx
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Twoappeny,
I cried and cried and cried but I don't even know why.
Psalm 56:8 You keep track of all my sorrows. You have collected all my tears in your bottle. You have recorded each one in your book. King David
tt
tt
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I find it hard knowing where the lines are - the line between being patient and taking it as it comes and being a mug, or the line between being assertive or being unreasonable, knowing whether my reactions are reasonable or if they're being pushed by other, much older things that have happened in the past, knowing whether alarm bells are healthy indicators of problems or my messed up 'you must never be happy' system trying to mess things up. I spend soooo much time thinking about things and trying to make the right, healthy choices - and then often end up not being sure if I've done the right thing or not.
Hi Penny... you know what? You just nailed down exactly what I've been overwhelmed with, the past week or so. I think going back through this again - perhaps backwards - as a healing or integration process can be just as painful as being ripped apart the first time. It's like having a bone that was broken and healed crooked, re-broken and properly set.
I hope you're feeling better today!
I don't wanna get into a long dissertation on this - but I do think it's one of the fundamental, functional "disabilities" we survivors face. And it confuses the hell out of people who don't have to deal with this. We are so used to being the "one with the problem"... that even when we're engaged in normal, healthy life activities... we carry over that self-doubt BECAUSE....
nothing we did around the FOO was ever good enough, or perfect enough or "right" enough to please them and get us accepted for who we are... nothing. Therefore, we never experienced that equilibrium of doing something "right"... making the right choice. Many times, even when we totally sacrificed ourselves doing exactly what we were told was wanted... well, someone moved the goal line, pulled away the football, or otherwise sabotaged our attempt -- and not even the attempt - trying/effort - was worth anything to the parent who held the power of life/death/fear or protection... over us. We learned we would always be "wrong"...
Does anyone but us know what the right choice is for us?? How will we ever know, unless we experiment, try things, take a few chances? I stopped reading self-help books, because they always made me feel like such a doofus... I can't take my experience, what I know about people and distill it down into a neat little package with a bow and sell it to others... why would I think the authors have any more expertise or authority than what I've been through? Sure there are good ideas and concepts and statements that ring a loud bell - resonate with my own experience. I still keep a few of these books around - ones that have pushed me along the path of healing a little more. But now I read them with my critical thinking brain on... I question the concepts... I quiz my own feelings; my own truth too... I talk back to the words on the page... No one has yet told me where the "line" is between healthy/unhealthy emotion or thinking or behavior... I think, because it's not definable - "healthy" is a range or continuum - because people are all different. My hubs' comfort level with my ability to express anger... and where he thinks the line should be... is way different than mine; however it doesn't upset other people... who's "right"? who's "wrong"? neither of us; we're just different.
Here's one more fact: no one's handing out gold stars for making the "right" choices... and if we do make a wrong one - guess what? We can change our minds! our directon! do something different! We're allowed to make mistakes. We're also allowed to be "wrong" without incurring a secondary penalty... it's just part of the process of learning what is right for us. If I screw up and it involves another person - I can apologize; admit my mistake... and sometimes I think that's all we really want from our FOOs, too. They just can't bring themselves to do that, though... being always right & all.
And for some reason, not being able to admit wrong and apologize makes them seem just that more pathetic to me.
I do hope you're feeling better. Sometimes, letting out all the tears is like opening the windows to a fresh spring day, after that is.
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Thank you, tt (((((((((((((tt)))))))))))))))))
Thanks, Phoenix. I think it's just hit me that I've just swapped all my 'must get it right' vibes from my mum to my therapist. I am so desperate for her to think well of me, to be 'getting it right', pleasing her, doing well, being, of course, perfect. You know when it hits you like a train? I've picked someone much healthier to aspire to be like (and be liked by) but the same lack of self, the same lack of comfort with being okay, imperfect, 'a bit screwed up but it's okay because I didn't kill anyone' is still missing and I didn't even realise. I just feel so exhausted now. I'm still crying, although I did get to spend the day in bed as my son's at holiday club so I didn't have to get up and do anything. I suddenly feel like I can see all my different personalities/egos/characters whatever you want to call them laid out through my life, like those little russian dolls that fit inside each other? A quiet, shy, bookish child, a not taking life too seriously teenager (the fog starts in my teens), the heavy drinking, drug taking party girl who didn't give a s**t about anything other than having a good time, the born again student at university, the soon to be married lady, the career girl, the new mum, the mum with mental health problems, the carer of a disabled child, and then the therapy ego, striving to be perfect, get rid of all my nonsense and become some sort of sterile, impossibly perfect robotic woman that never gets it wrong and looks down on people who don't drink carrot juice at breakfast. And suddenly inside all of that there's this sort of mass, this collection of molecules and atoms that used to be a little girl but is just mush and has no form or substance, there are no edges or boundaries, it's all just fluid and so broken I don't know if I can reconnect the pieces. And at the minute I don't even know if I want to. My mum's been batty her whole life and it hasn't done her any harm - she doesn't know she's batty and she doesn't care that people don't like her because she thinks they're all scum anyway! She exists in her litte fantasy world where there are no problems, everything works, everything fits and at the minute I can see the appeal of that!!
You are so, so right about needing to make mistakes - needing to take a chance, get it wrong, apologise if necessary, pick it up and move on. I've never done this, never been able to do this - I've never let myself do this. Am too tired to do it today! But tomorrow.........I expect I'll feel better tomorrow.
I hope you are feeling less overwhelmed today, or that you start to very soon. Thank you ((((((((Phoenix))))))))))))))))
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And it confuses the hell out of people who don't have to deal with this. We are so used to being the "one with the problem"... that even when we're engaged in normal, healthy life activities... we carry over that self-doubt BECAUSE....
nothing we did around the FOO was ever good enough, or perfect enough or "right" enough to please them and get us accepted for who we are... nothing. Therefore, we never experienced that equilibrium of doing something "right"... making the right choice. Many times, even when we totally sacrificed ourselves doing exactly what we were told was wanted... well, someone moved the goal line, pulled away the football, or otherwise sabotaged our attempt -- and not even the attempt - trying/effort - was worth anything to the parent who held the power of life/death/fear or protection... over us. We learned we would always be "wrong"...
I suddenly feel like I can see all my different personalities/egos/characters whatever you want to call them laid out through my life, like those little russian dolls that fit inside each other? .... And suddenly inside all of that there's this sort of mass, this collection of molecules and atoms that used to be a little girl but is just mush and has no form or substance, there are no edges or boundaries, it's all just fluid and so broken I don't know if I can reconnect the pieces. And at the minute I don't even know if I want to.
Hi Amber & Penny,
I love what each of you wrote.
Amber, you totally nailed the "self doubt" component of our "disability". I think this ever present self doubt is a core element of our voicelessness. For me, it's constant second guessing myself: "did I do right? did I do wrong?" It's like a self imposed walking on eggshells & it's very exhausting. Maybe it's a form of self punishment, like never allowing ourselves the luxury of feeling comfortable in our own skin, never letting ourselves off the hook? When I find myself in the self defeating wasteland of second guessing self doubt, I start doing Louise Hay affirmations (http://www.louisehay.com/affirmations/), otherwise, I could get stuck in self loathing negativity.
Penny,
This is what I have found about reviewing our lives. When we want to understand how we got to this current place in life, I think a life review is essential. We may (or may not) be able to see in retrospect what we did wrong, what went wrong, evaluate our past choices & apply all that knowledge, all that earned wisdom, to our current lives. I think the trick is not to get stuck in berating ourselves for past mistakes & past bad choices. When I find myself beating myself up for past mistakes, I stop & bring myself into the present. More & more, I am coming to believe that it's best to leave the past in the past & to focus on today & the present. So, even if I majorly screwed up in the past, I can learn the lessons the screw up taught me, but, I don't want to allow past screw ups to steal happiness & good feelings which I could have in the present moment. I think healing is sort of like time travel: we travel back to the past, to learn the lessons of the past, but we must also travel forward to the present because the present is our true reality and there is always the potential to feel happy in the present moment.
I don't know if I can reconnect the pieces. And at the minute I don't even know if I want to.
Penny, if you don't want to reconnect the pieces, it's fine. Nothing says you must look back. Maybe a good thing would be to try to self sooth & feel good in the present. There's some really good things here that may help you feel better: http://www.hayhouseradio.com/
Hope you feel better (((Penny)))
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Hi Ann, thankyou for your kind words and the links and other suggestions.
When you describe this as a disability you are so right, it really is a major affliction that has such a debilitating effect on every aspect of your life. All the more difficult to deal with because other people don't tend to see it or, if they do know about it, often don't understand it (or want to hear about it). I just feel so exhausted at the minute - getting through the day is really hard work. The sun is out so I am just going to try and take it easy and not rush around too much. I am leaving all the processing and wading through it for a while - I'm just too frazzled to do any more at the minute. Perhaps focusing on the here and now and the future would be more helpful for a while (after a break!)
Thank you xxx
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Penny: sometimes all you can do to put that little girl back together again - is wrap your arms around the whole mess and hug & rock it... let the tears fall until they stop [because damn it, that's "voice" too]... and wait for her to talk to you. In my case, she did... I've heard others say that they couldn't connect anymore... and in either case: people turn out just fine. Photos help. It'll be OK; it'll be allright...
what I find strange about me, is that when I do experience that kind of love & acceptance - either from my self or someone else - is when the tears come uncontrollably; it seems counter-intuitive and nonsensical and wack that something that's supposed to feel good makes me cry but it does. And maybe that's a combination of grief and relief and daring to "hope" that I'm OK, after all. So... while I look like I'm gregarious and an outgoing person - when someone approaches the most interior, smallest nesting doll that is "me".... I back off; I freak out; I'm scared I won't be able to explain myself and this odd conjunction or action/reaction that happens. Even if the person approaching is me; that's why I nicknamed her the "feral cat", you know?
Patience, Grasshopper!
Ann: that egg-shell or tightrope walking of self-doubt has one more aspect to it, for me - I have these immovable self-care issues; like mountains they're that unconquerable. And yet, it still "feels" to one part of me... that I'm just making an excuse for "how I am". I've been studying it almost as long as I've been on the board and I still don't understand it; still can't "see" the whole picture.
The important parts are: this self-doubt has a double significance - both as protection or disguise (as in, not challenging the abuser) and to gain what is the sugar-free substitute for true love & acceptance - "approval" from the abuser; one's "hall pass" to be and to freely engage in all aspects of life - no matter HOW MUCH they denied me or required of me; how much it hurt. If they can instill this kind of doubt in the "target" - they feel assured of ultimate victory and control. And I'm not sure that I haven't just "given up" when I doubt myself; it's almost as if I'm bestowing on the abuser the AUTHORITY to condemn me to a life of self-doubt [if these are really screwed up people, why do I presume they have that kind of power???]... and not even voicing that teenaged whiny protest about "you can't tell me who I am" that they go through when they dye their hair purple, get tattoos... and all look alike in their "individuality". (I did this, too.) No....
on the contrary, I'm silent because I want to "escape"; be tougher than, able to take more than - the people who hurt me. I'm biding my time... maybe that's it, Ann! Maybe someone forgot to ring Pavlov's bell... or send me the coded message that will self-destruct or I just never "saw"... that I made it already; I survived and am not a bad person; not perfect... have learned a lot (have a lot more to learn)... but I'm no longer stuck reliving the same FOO nightmare as they are insisting on recreating; I'm already free. And this "close encounter" I had with the whole wacked scenario, in April ALMOST sucked me in. IT'S NOT GOING ON RIGHT NOW, you know? I know them for what they are and I'm not falling for the old trick of getting hooked into the round-robin game where they make me angry - and then pull the rug out from under me with gaslighting and laugh. It's just that my feral cat inner child, thinks it IS - because of the business conflict with bro.
And since I never learned that all the self-care stuff: being nice to myself and not driving myself into exhaustion, allowing myself to have fun, enjoy things and feel good with people and just REST and relax... and since it's actually a "requirement" for the kind of resiliance needed to keep going... maybe I oughta give it a try.
I'm getting too old to let the feral cat, drive ALL the time.
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Phoenix:
Patience, Grasshopper
That made me laugh for the first time this week!! Thank you :)
And as for everything else you said - I have just sat nodding furiously in agreement to every single thing you wrote. I don't want to be obsessed with all this, and sometimes I'm not. Sometimes I do feel 'normal' - just that I'm not preoccupied with a dozen different things, I can sit in the park and feel the sun and build a sandcastle with my boy and it feels right and okay and it's all good and my mind is filled with 'normal' stuff. But it's other times when something sets me off and I can feel him/smell him/sense him and every bit of me is screaming that I need to run - but of course there's no-one there and the threat isn't real so I can't 'run' in the real sense of the word, I can only block it out with food or work or pretending it's being skint I'm angry at or whatever is easiest at the time. Or I can sit with how it feels and feel so small and defenceless and weak, I can see that little girl and I feel so angry, why did no-one come and get her? Where was everybody, how could anyone just shrug their shoulders and turn their back and leave her to suffer so badly and then, just to compound all that, tell her it was all her fault anyway and then, when she dared to try and help herself and protect other children, so many people turned on her and told her she was crazy, she was mad, she was a bad mum and that she was lying. And then all of that goes as well and I'm just left feeling like I've been run over, I've cried so much I've used up every tissue in the house and throughout all of it there isn't one damn person I feel I can ring and say I'm really hurting now can you come get me? And I suppose that's why I keep trying to work through it to stop those bad times happening. Maybe that's part of it, having to accept that the bad times will come, you just have to keep your head above water during them until they go again? Maybe part of the need for control is to be able to control the bad feelings now, instead of just 'feeling bad' and accepting that. And now I'm making my brain ache again! Ha ha. I'm off to do tea and make some puzzles with my boy :)
Thank you (((((((((((((Phoenix))))))))))))))))))
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Way back, one of the things that used to irritate me NO END (and when hubs gets on this kick still does)...
is that people would actually try to get me to shift out of those bad times... or insist that I fake a happy smile and just go on as if what I went through didn't matter - like stepping in dog doo, no biggie; shrug; clean it off and walk on.
No one would understand that I WAS that little kid that needed someone to come, hug, rock, kiss the boo-boo, offer cookie and milk, and say that what happened to me - how I felt about it - mattered and they cared.
I think the non-verbal message in having those bad times, for me, was that HEY: it does matter!! To me! I'm really NOT FINE. And because the comfort step above - the one that validates those bad feelings and says Honey, OF COURSE it was __________ and you felt _________. That's exactly normal... because the comfort step got skipped at least one too many times or got turned around and like you say -- I got blamed too for causing an uproar, being outraged, or inconsolable and that's so "bad parenting"... [sigh] and implies the message yet again, in another way that how I feel, who I am doesn't matter; what happened isn't important & you ought to be over that now.... which brings the blame and lack of parental responsibility (or neglect or abuse) completely full circle again...
[well, I know for a fact that this contributed to my lack of respect for limits; rules; the usual common sense guidelines... I couldn't very well cease to exist - which is what my kid logic was telling me was the ultimate message in that parental behavior, even tho I tried that too. When I came to the board, my name was Shunned. That is the last phase of actual reality I experienced with trying to get my mom to actually act like and be my mom; she shunned me until I took all my feellings & memories & experience that she was denying was real and important... I carved that whole section of me out of me... wrapped it up carefully... placed in a magic treasure box... locked it and threw away the key in 1969. Until 2005, that is... when I was helped to find the box and start re-claiming that bit of myself. It's not always pretty, mind you - but it's all me.]
In this respect: kids are smarter than grown-ups. They instinctively know how they feel, what they need even if they can't express it in an adult fashion. If they don't get that comfort time or re-established equilibrium or are taught that those needs aren't important enough to get met... the kid begins to actually see themselves as rejected; kicked out of the litter... and one step further: begins to believe "I am a reject"; "I am bad"; "I deserve to feel bad all the time". In my case, it was literally "done to" me over my stubborn silence and insistent objections and protests.
It's a bit different, when you're in the active healing process - but the difference is slight. You participate in your own parenting, rather - reparenting of that child that still lives within you or in some magical treasure box hiding place. AND - you are also the child who doesn't know how to say where & how it hurts or what is wrong... you experience; re-live these "feeling bad times" sometimes more frequently, intensely, or constantly; faster than you can actually intellectually and emotionally process all the information contained in them. If you had to explain: what was THAT all about? Could you say precisely, specifically? I sure couldn't... (and I'm still having trouble with how many words it takes to just "spit it out"... LOL)
I've learned to pay attention to what the non-verbal communication is from my inner child, when she's obviously sooooo upset that she's impacting how I feel, my ability to function in the rest of my life. Not saying she's not allowed to have her feelings and opinions about it - that they don't matter - but literally, until something "connects" and triggers her into action about something she did care about in the past and doesn't want to ever happen again, she's pretty quiet these days. She doesn't always speak in words sometimes to me; it's more these episodes of despair or anxiety or what have you. It tells me I need to reassure her that it's going to be OK; I need to give her (and myself) a comfort "time out". A rest period. I am responsible for her safety now. I am still learning how to best protect her. I make time - still - twice a day to just listen for her; see if she needs to tell me something. Sometimes, I forget - and I have to apologize. And I sometimes forget to THANK HER for how she helped me survive and then later - how she helped me figure out what happened to me - who I am - and then she puts her hands on her hips and clears her throat, tapping me sharply on the shoulder... saying in her sarcastic, pretend grownup voice: Did you forget something?????
I'll turn around and hug her and say Yes, Ma'am! Thank you Ma'am. Smile... and we're good for a while. We played house a lot, you know.
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Phoneix, I love what you wrote. Do you think, then, that when these horrible periods come along of feeling so bad, that is your own little girl having a bad time? And in those moments, because she is feeling bad, that is when you need to do the comfort bit that was missed out the first time around, to listen, soothe, reassure, tell her it will be okay? And if she's angry ask her why and let her express it and validate it for her? Tell her she has every right to be angry, all that sort of thing?
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Thanks Bonesie ((((((((((((((Bonesie)))))))))))))))))))))))
I've spent the whole rest of the day having a complete meltdown. I have no idea whether what is in my head is me, my family, my counsellor (who at times like this I stop trusting and start wondering if she's just out to get me like everyone else). I can't separate my thoughts from my feelings, daren't get it wrong, I feel like I'm walking on egg shells the whole time just to get through the day, trying to avoid triggers, bad memories, bad feelings, eating or drinking the wrong things, walking or talking the wrong way, spending money, not spending money, staying in, going out - it's like there's not one thing in my life that I know is me, or that I know is right or true or just. It gets into such a jumble and I cried and cried and cried but I don't even know why. I'm massively doubting the situation with this chap now, I've no idea whether I've handled the whole thing the right way or not, I've no idea what the right way is!!! And my book still hasn't arrived! Why do I do this to myself? Times like this I just want to hug my mum because I feel like I really see inside her bat shit crazy head and I can see how she got where she is - she was like this one too many times and her brain just shut it all down so she could cope. It makes me feel like my heart is being torn out again. Sorry. Rambling on xxx
(((((((((((((((((((((((((((TwoAPenny)))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))
I can understand how everything feels all jumbled up. It's hard to know how and what to trust when we've learned, the hard way, that we are unable to trust anything! If we can't trust our mothers, as a result of their abuse, who can we trust?
Bones
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Phoneix, I love what you wrote. Do you think, then, that when these horrible periods come along of feeling so bad, that is your own little girl having a bad time? And in those moments, because she is feeling bad, that is when you need to do the comfort bit that was missed out the first time around, to listen, soothe, reassure, tell her it will be okay? And if she's angry ask her why and let her express it and validate it for her? Tell her she has every right to be angry, all that sort of thing?
Uh-HUH... EXACTLY right. And it's not like it'll take a lot of time, after a few sessions of practice (some things were harder and deeper and took longer, though)... what I'm trying to say, is that my Twigs was so hungry for that comfort and even the angry soapbox spotlight with someone who really cared, listening... that when I started to give her that, it helped almost immediately, but also opened up the "channel" - the floodgates - and she took advantage of that and I found she had a lot more to say, repeatedly even, before the original "symptom" of the miserable agony of the emotions started to subside, become less intense and metamorphose into part of a "known" set of facts... it turned out to be the process of digesting the un-digestible for she and I. Eventually... she quieted and we went on to another step in the healing process... and all the he said/she said/he did/I felt... passed away into a boring re-run of a soap opera... the mundane, dry, historical facts of my existence -- up until the time I began healing, caring about myself, comforting the desolate Twigs. Mind you, it's still possible for me (us) to be triggered right back into those intense emotions, even now... depending on the stimulus.
When you start to be able to tell the difference between the little Penny feeling bad - and you feeling bad for little Penny and wanting to make it all better... you will have turned the corner. It'll just be a sense of how things are... I think. For me, I think I lost my fear of knowing the details of the drama and experiences of Twigs; I couldn't help her if I was afraid too. And with both of us working together on the same "process" - with the same goal - connected - we started to merge and integrate and grow into each other. Like Shel Silverstein's "missing piece" was found. Like a teenager who discovers her authentic self is a lot different from the poseur identity she created to fit in with her peers... there is a lot of "inside the head and emotions housecleaning, remodeling, and redecorating" that happens.
I'm really glad you asked those questions, Penny. I needed reminding... that I can do this for myself; and that expecting my friends or hubs to do anything more than simply "understand" what I'm going through.... is too much to expect from that relationship. It's what a parent does for a child - and I sure don't want my hubs taking on that role!! He's bossy enough, even though he's "only trying to help" - LOL...
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((((((Tupp)))))), honey.
I just want to say you are a good person.
And that confusion is not a crime.
Who wouldn't be confused?
You're sorting through so much and trying to do everything perfectly and a meltdown seems like a very sensible thing to appear on the calendar now and then.
I think you deserve enormous mercy, and kindness, and comfort. And also permission to just be where you are (including spats of whirling, days of doubt).
It helps me sometimes when I lose confidence, to remember that emotions are like weather. I am still here, but sometimes around me, outside my skin, there is wind, hail, snow, downpours, or sunshine, gentle breezes, soft spring breeze, calm simple rain, and that every day, even when it's not visible...there is sunset, there is dawn.
You will have the good weather again. Don't despair.
And don't blame yourself. Confusion makes sense. Clarity comes.
love to you,
Hops
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Thank you, Bonesie. The learning to trust again is difficult, I think. I am getting there. I have been reading a very good book called "Breaking the Chains of Abuse" by a lady called Sue Atkinson. There are two things I really like about it. One is that she is an actual survivor and is writing from her own experiences - rather than being a doctor or psychologist who is giving advice about something they haven't actually experienced. The other is that she mentions at several times that she is still dealing with all this stuff, she still screws things up and there are things that she knows she ought to be doing but at times she can't. She still has unanswered questions. She is human!! Her book has spoken to me in a really profound way. One of the things she says in there is that you have to connect with people in order to heal. You have to start reaching out to people for help with getting through the process and learn to trust again. I can understand what she is saying and, as hard as it is, that is my next goal, to start reaching out to people I can talk to, face to face and start being honest with them about how bloody hard, lonely and unhappy my life is a lot of the time. I did a couple of small things last week and told a couple of friends I think I may be suffering from post traumatic stress disorder. It's the first time I've really said it outloud to other people; I always thought people would think I was being stupid and making it up. Both were really sympathetic and very caring. It feels odd for me to accept care from people but I am trying anyway and I will keep trying! Hugs to you ((((((((((((((((Bonesie))))))))))))))))
Phoenix, thank you, I am really trying to work with my little girl now. The book I mentioned above talks about a lot of things to do with the inner child and healing those old traumas and I am going to try and listen to her and make her feel safer. I always feel anxious if I can't see the door and always have the furniture facing it, even though that doesn't really work in some of our rooms. I thought about it and I think that little Penny is scared that he is going to walk in, so she likes to be able to see the door all the time. The adult in me wants the furniture arranged more conveniently, so I'm going to buy some pretty mirrors to hang so little Penny can see the door even is she's sitting in a chair facing away from it. I thought I'd buy her some wind chimes as well and hang them over the doors, so that she can hear him if he walks through. That way she might not be so scared all the time. It's a small step but I think it is heading in the right direction. I hope things are okay with you at the minute (((((((((((Phoenix))))))))))))
Hopsie, thank you. I have also been reading A Fine Romance. I wish I'd read this years ago! I think it will help all my relationships, not just those with men. I have realised the biggest problem is me, my lack of self-esteem, my fear of rejection and projecting my own negativity onto other people. Today, for example, a lady knocked on my door to ask for directions. I explained to her where she needed to go and she was very grateful and apologetic for bothering me. On the one hand, I had been polite and helpful to a stranger, so she may go away thinking she had just met a nice lady. On the other, I was still in my dressing gown at lunchtime and she could have thought that I was lazy, slovenly, a bad mother, scruffy etc. I bet you can guess which one was in my head as she left!! But A Fine Romance says those are your own negative thoughts that are being projected out, so I told myself I had no idea what she had thought and, either way, it didn't matter, and it worked - the anxiety went away and I haven't thought about her all day. I just need to keep reminding myself to do it. Thank you so much for suggesting it to me (((((((((((((Hopsie))))))))))))))))))
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SOOO glad, hon. Really glad!
That book was a revelation to me, made me feel so much safer.
There's no crime in not knowing what "normal" is and the great thing is, there are books/people who can explain how normal works! It's just a welcoming, comforting thing when the switch goes off and you realize,
It doesn't matter WHEN, I actually can learn this stuff.
And re: it's just hit me that I've just swapped all my 'must get it right' vibes from my mum to my therapist. I am so desperate for her to think well of me, to be 'getting it right', pleasing her, doing well, being, of course, perfect.
How about starting a session soon with something like:
"I've realized I want to ask you to tell me it's okay for me to be a mess. I figured out I am letting myself be desperate to do THIS perfectly, and I'm in therapy because I need it to be okay to be so not perfect. To start where I am. Warts and all."
I mean, that's why you're in therapy! That's why everybody is!
I'd be amazed if she'd respond with anything other than something that will really help you be real. And real = healing.
xxoo
Hops
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PS--HUGE:
so I told myself I had no idea what she had thought and, either way, it didn't matter
Yay, reality!
Bravo, Tupp.
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Thanks, Hops. I really like that suggestion of what to say to my T. She has told me repeatedly that it is okay to be average, okay to be 'good enough', okay to please yourself and not worry about everyone else. I just hadn't realised that my focus was more on what she thinks of me than what I think of me! I am sure she will 'do the right thing', she's a good woman and a good T (she probably already knows I do this she's just waiting for me to see it). And yes, that book is a revelation! It's one I think I will need to keep re-reading, but what heartened me was the section about being ready - I think I am in that place where real things matter more than looks, jobs, nights out etc. I'm making a real effort to work on myself more now so fingers crossed things will start moving in the right direction again. Thank you xxx
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Penny - those are really good ideas! I think they're exactly right for your little girl. She will tell you, when she's not afraid anymore and it's OK to re-arrange again, too. It might take a while... but hey - you don't have to explain your decorating rationale to anyone! Just smile and say you've found an ancient feng shui type book and you're experimenting with the energy in the room!
:D
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Thanks Phoenix, do you know, I really love wind chimes! I never really realised that before, they're one of those things I always look at but never buy because they're not sensible. I got a really beautiful glass one in the charity shop, it's hanging over my bedroom door opposite the mirror that also came from the charity shop (funny how these things appear when you decide you need them!). Doesn't feel safe enough yet, not sure what else is needed but I will keep listening and hopefully she will tell me! Maybe a huge KEEP OUT YOU REVOLTING PERVERT sign? TOUCH ME AND I'LL BREAK YOUR NOSE? Might be difficult to explain away to visitors!! Lol.
On a different note, I think A Fine Romance has started something happening in my head. I decided to join a dating site, which I've done before and it's always been a complete nightmare - neurotics are us!! But so far, not this time. Have had a few emails - usually I dismiss guys quickly, there's always something wrong with them, or I look at guys that I presume wouldn't be interested so don't mail them. But this time I've just been thinking, it's just an email? Doesn't matter whether it leads to anything else, whether he's right, whether I'm right for him. It feels nice, very relaxed and very different. Don't know if it will stay like this but hope so! Am quite enjoying myself :)
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You know... as long as you are sure you're not having visitors... I think I WOULD put up a sign like this. It's what a kid would do, right? A kid who wants to set a boundary... mark a line in the sand... and say "this isn't right; LEAVE ME ALONE". At least for a day or two... and just see how it feels. I'm all about creating safe places, refuges, nests... that are healing & power-recharging places.
These kinds of silly-sounding things can be just what the "doctor" ordered!