Heist on Something....

[sKePTiKal]

Holly and I prefer "extroverted introverts", LOL. Her more so than me. I'm more your basic introvert.

No brilliance involved, Hops - just the combination of recent experiences, dealing with the noise/people storm in my head, getting quiet again... and letting the real observations float up to the surface. I need those more than I need regular social activity.

I should be doing something, but since the first half of my week looks to be busy - and I'm still easily frazzled since I haven't gotten ENOUGH R&R yet - the resentment about my time being scheduled already is setting in and well - I don't HAVE to do a blessed thing today if that's what feels good. And it does.

Tonight is "men in kilts" night again - Outlander's new episode - and I'll probably need to build a fire again tonight. Holly leaves tomorrow morning sometime for 2 weeks crewing a sailboat to Florida. I officially buy the land tomorrow morning and have a lot of errands on my list. Hopefully get one jeep inspected Tues... and down to the little cabin to pay guy for work he's done that will let me list the place after the holidays. THEN, more downtime. LOL.

[lighter]

Hops:

I think going slow gives you both time to really see each other.  If he's patient and level while waiting, that's a good sign, IME.

I hope you continue meeting new people, bc you aren't married.  You're responsible for finding people you connect with if you really want connections, IME.

Coffee, lunches, and texts with other guys are allowed.

:: Nodding::

You might meet a really great guy while B is a really good guy, kwim?

I'm happy for you!  Have fun;. )
Lighter

[Hopalong]

Something interesting happening with B.
We had a deep talk two dates ago that pushed us forward. All that straight talk, and he responded by declaring he felt even closer to me.

So when I saw him again I was feeling ready for the connection to continue growing, but I sensed he was pulling away. He's noticed I noticed, and called to explain he'd been feeling "off or something."

Intuition isn't everything and I'm not feeling that it has to resolve one way or another. My GUESS is that now that he knows some of my expectations (no quick casual comfort for me, since it's just not what I'm looking for at this point) and agreed to them so quickly, the reality of it is settling in.

Like...it's Saturday and we talked this morning, but he was distant. So I figured he needs space, might be reacting to the holidays + the grief process (it's been not quite two years since he lost his wife). And at dinner he'd also told me his daughter's marriage is in trouble, and a sad story about a juvenile boy he'd tried to help in life who wound up rebuffing his efforts.

Long story shorter he may be dealing with depression. The behavior though, is pretty unsteady. He's gone from feeling "fantastic" about us to acting remote and going back to more superficial talk. Then later he left a message and explained he would've invited me out and should have done it this morning, but ... didn't. So it was too late for me to leap in the car and go out there to keep him company.

I understand and am not ditching, but I'm feeling some concern. He's been pressing hard about his desire to "find a permanent partner asap" yet now that we're taking some steps toward building something that could possibly become that...in time...he's wobbling.

Very understandable that it's a back and forth process. And I'm concerned but not freaked. Just going to continue working on my own life and connect with him if it works.

But I'm wondering how in touch with himself, his needs and his actual capacity to form relationship he is. He's been "large and in charge" for so long, I'm not sure he can contain his desire to control things. And that's not something that's going to work for me.

I hope we can continue to communicate and compromise our way into something healthy. But I'm doubly glad I've had my foot on the brake, and have to some degree been containing my emotions. I no longer believe in throwing my heart over the bar because it backfired so much earlier in my life.

I am genuinely trying to lead with my brain and let my heart take whatever time it needs to know what's going to be right. Hope he can hang in there with that kind of process, but there's doubt.

That's it for now...I feel so lucky to have you all to write it out to. Thank you!

hugs
Hops

[sKePTiKal]

So, Hops... it's been 2 years since Mike passed. And he started withdrawing from me, almost 2 years before that. From my perspective - realizing that B & I are likely pretty different - every time I think I might "get back on the horse" and be more than friends with one of my "useful brothers" or some stranger I have yet to meet - something in me panics. And I back off like a flash... strewing excuses all along the way.

It's not like I haven't had many relationships with different types of guys... or that I fear intimacy... or even sex (altho' I am sorta conflicted there, still). So the only way I've been able to explain this to myself is that I still FEEL like I have a relationship with Mike. I'm unconsciously looking for, and reacting to echoes of Mike in other guys. That's my OCD I guess... trying to recover what I lost, that was so cozy and comfortable.

At the same time, my brain is fully aware that any new relationship is going to be with a completely different person - with a different balance sheet of characteristics. And that part of me is really intrigued by that opportunity and even the "danger" - maybe challenge is a better word - of taking that risk of things maybe not working out. After all, I can look back and honestly say there were things Mike could've been better at in the relationship, things he shouldn't have tried to do at all - but did repeatedly after I asked him to stop, etc. But it was the things he DID really well - and that no one else in my experience did AS well - that I'm attached to. Seeking.

It's just getting past that feeling that I'm looking for Mike again - maintaining a relationship with him in my emotional imagination - that keeps my public sign flipped to "not available", instead of "available".

No earthly idea if B could be going through something similar, but thought you might gain something from this... to explain what's going on for yourself. You already picked a gentle action-path that respects his uncertainty right now. It's a really good choice.

[I have no idea how or if, I'll move past this place - I've been too busy IRL to want to clutter it up with emotional stuff. But I still come face to face with the less comfortable side of solitude on a regular basis. So I expect at some point I will. No rush.      ]

[lighter]

Hops:

Sometimes when I read your posts I get a twinge of discomfort...... about... maybe this guy possibly, certainly not likely, putting out a cattle call for women to stand on their heads auditioning for a "part" he has no intention to fill.   

Now, that's not a warning, or my intuition.  That's one possible negative interpretation of a set of facts I view through, admittedly, very jaded/guarded goggles based on unfortunate past real life experiences.... one friend shot herself in the chest over a man in similar circumstances.  Like you, she was very smart, capable, and worthy.  The guy was freshly widowed, and playing the field.  Some widowed men aren't sweet, lonely dears who need another soul mate, IME.  Some are flawed, selfish, N's who think of women as apples to be plucked at will, just as they viewed women before they were married, and widowed, kwim?

So... whew..... I'm putting this out there just in case.... so it's on your radar, even if it's the farthest thing from the truth.  At least you have access to my filter, even if they're useless, and utterly wrong.

Lighter

[Hopalong]

Thanks, Amber.
It's helpful to read how another widowed person is reacting to new relationship notions.

Thing is though, B has pursued me very clearly and with enthusiasm. I do believe grief-at-holiday could be part of his sudden chilly feet, that makes perfect sense.

Right now I'm thinking it's maybe that plus a combo of things--or might not be one of these at all.

--frustration with my not being available for instant connection when he wants it. (He always asks, if I take an hour to return a call--"Did you have your ringer off again?". I have told him about 3 times that because two of my elders call me at any time of day or night and I want privacy from that, I leave ringers off. But I do return calls as soon as I hear a message. Ironically, he doesn't reply to my emails. So either way, there's a communication issue.)
--a sudden "turn-off" or loss of attraction (it happens)
--we have a date for him to meet friends of mine Tuesday, because we'd talked about doing that as a healthy next step. I've known quite a few men who express ambivalence about taking that significant step by behaving differently or less warmly.
--he still has some connection going with a different person that I don't know about (dunno, but he is driven to not be alone and has taken a very methodical approach to finding a partner)

I'm coping with this okay, because I don't feel panic or desperation to be certain he and I are moving all the way forward. If it's not reciprocal or positive or healthy, I do not want it.

But today, anyway, I am also feeling some frustration about his moves. I know he's relatively inexperienced in relationships. But pretending, avoiding, and evading are not going to help.

What I'm resisting in myself is becoming angry. It's not dire, but I do feel a bit jerked around right now.

xo
Hops

[sKePTiKal]

I can understand feeling a bit angry. Perhaps if you can talk about that without BEING angry... he'll be more forthcoming about what he's going through right now. The other option, would be to simply bring up his hesitancy and what you're reading as uncertainty or something else. Ask him to clarify, best he can, how he feels and what he's going through.

That should give you a better "read" on things - whether he's honest about it or confused in his feelings or whatever else the case might be. But it's straightforward and not hostile or challenging. Obviously, that's a private conversation - LOL. But I do think it's good to introduce him to your friends in a relaxed setting. I hope that's enjoyable for you both.

[Twoapenny]

Hopsie, there's a book you recommended to me a few years back (which I've forgotten the name of) but it's about relationships and in it the author talks about 'the switch' - a time in a relationship where one person (usually the one who has initiated and done the chasing) cools back a bit because they're at the point where things will change from dating to being in 'a relationship' and the brakes go on for a while.  Sometimes it means they call it off, sometimes it means they come back certain this is what they want.  But she describes it as a very normal part of a relationship and advises doing what you're doing - carrying on with your own stuff and just giving them some space.  I think keep in mind what you want because it feels more like you're waiting for him to decide what he wants?  Can you 'just' date without any other expectations?  Or do you feel too into him to be able to do that?  I think you can second guess the whys and wherefores forever (and never know for sure!)  Do you want to get married again?  Or is this more his drive to find a new partner?  Would you be happy with 'single' but a good friend/companion/someone to go to the cinema with type situation?  I think maybe put him to one side of your mind for a bit and focus on what it is you want - regardless of whether or not it's him you want it with - because it kind of reads a little like he's been setting the pace?  I might be misreading it?  But I feel like I'm hearing a lot of him and not so much of you?  I think maybe Hops needs to concentrate on Hops for a short while?  Which I know is not as easy as it sounds! (And I mean all of that in a nice way and not as a criticism ) xx

[Hopalong]

Thank you both so VERY much.

Tupp, your post helped me articuate something. No, I am not just looking for a casual companion. I have quite a few friends, female, who'll keep me company for a movie or play or simple lunch or drinks connection. I value them enormously and am content with that. I am actually rich in that.

I do want a serious lifelong partnership with a man, and marriage. I am not looking for "company" but for "partner."

So that's clarifying.

PR, thank you. That was a calm and realistic take and it really helped. I think your insight that it's okay to FEEL a bit angry without BEING (acting out) anger is very wise. Plus, if the connection allows, just asking...and listening... is so sane.

What I value most, after my history, is reality. I'm willing to deal with what is, and if someone else doesn't really know what is real for them...then their confusion or ambivalence is a part of reality I get to deal with and make choices about.

I hope I get good news but then again, even bad news is good news if it connects me more firmly with reality.

Thank you.

I feel strengthened, no small thanks to you guys. LARGE thanks.

xxxooo gratefully,
Hops

[Hopalong]

Lighter, thank you.

I know you posited one of the more brutal possibilities, but I want to thank you for doing that. Because it IS a possibility.

He's been an intense, competitive businessperson his whole life, and I think ruthlessness is one part of that. I do think one possibility is that he's doing exactly what you say.

I hope it's not so but I'm entirely ready to figure out that may be it. He was SO unnaturally methodical during the "job interviews" that I honestly would not be surprised if the truth were he's still doing it. His statements about "not dating anyone since I met you" -- have come only because I asked.

And I wouldn't say he has volunteered that clarity. And though I generally feel he's honest, I also know I'm capable of hearing that because I want to.

I can't convict him about that behavior at this point because I genuinely don't know. But the scenario you describe is one of the possibilities in reality.

All the more reason to find a balance between vulnerability and guarding my heart. And I do have more faith than I ever did previously in my life, that I have discovered ways to do that better.

Thanks for the reminder to be on balance, in my own dojo. I really appreciate it.

hugs
Hops

[Hopalong]

B called today to confirm our plans, twice this week, to meet friends of mine.
Glad he didn't bail but at the same time, noticed that I felt drained by the time he was in touch.

Just not sure how much of the game I'm up for these days. Felt kind of detached and almost sour after speaking to him.

We've got many rivers to cross and though he may not realize it, his inconsistency (emotionally) recently had the effect of making me wanna RUN.

Huh. Pondering....

Hops

[sKePTiKal]

The thing about solitude... is that no one else is allowed to have an agenda. When we become accustomed to solitude... and our own agendas... we don't want any interruptions. Because of other people's needs... their agendas. It's an effort to make room for that. And maybe a joy too?

Just postulating.

[Hopalong]

It's good postulation.

For me, it's both resentment and resistance to the effort required, even though I think it's what I want. (Not B necessarily, don't know him well enough.) But I have a hard time inviting him here, resent having to tidy up. It's stupid, I know.

I think beneath the resistance is anxiety. It's quite scary and difficult to contain my anxious fantasies about his nature.

I'm trying to listen to instinct as his personality unfolds. I do not know what was happening with him recently but do know that it created unease. The "perfectionism" he's mentioned more than once as a core trait...I don't know how to integrate that into a vision of a happy relationship.

I fear he's on honeymoon manners. But I don't know for sure. If that withdrawal is as bad as he gets and he quickly gets through it, maybe I'm exaggerating. But...I worry about my own capacity to make good judgments in this part of life.

I'm talking myself through it but am surprised at how draining it is. Not sure it should feel that way.

Confused, confused. Will know more in a week, as two evenings with my friends are coming up. But I'm concerned about my hopes for a future partner clouding my sense.

Hops

[Hopalong]

I'll just yammer on....

I am positive that my past hurts and romantic calamities are also a cue for some of the anxiety I'm feeling.

All this stuff is really, really reinforcing my desire to go sloooooooowly with him (or with anyone that I were dating). He is impatient, eager to get on to bed, to domestic shared life. I feel sympathy for him because he is lonely, and I know how excruciating that can be.

But dating me for two months just doesn't get me into bed or anchored to a shared domestic routine. Unfortunately (for him or anyone) -- my slim chances of finding a new mate are in great contrast to modern dating models (in which you're lucky if you can postpone sex to your second date, much less to your second month).

I'm sooooooo socially left and liberal that it might seem ironic. I was a round-heeled 60s woman, for sure, in my youth. But over my life (and the 20 years of thinking hard since my second divorce) the gradual, older-school approach to dating I was raised with, now makes a lot more sense to me.

A way to get to know someone more gently and slowly, over time, and in many different contexts, not just being alone together. (I LIKE sex and look forward to it becoming part of my life again. And the chemistry with B so far is good.) But I am willing to wait, and wait, and wait...for the moment when my concerns are allayed and everything inside lines up saying Yes. This man is the right person for me to trust, enjoy, and celebrate lowering my guard with. Then, va-voom.

I hope, should B actually be a right person for me to continue with, that he'll understand that too. He is a physical, athletic man (I do aerobic reading) and I am sure that the reassurance of renewed sex in his life is very, very important to him. I don't disapprove of that at all and in my past, my compassion and empathy for whatever a man is feeling would lead me to put their desires first.

I just hope that he can make that sacrifice. What I know about myself is that for me, sex is more deep than simply playful, so I'm making a deep commitment when I make that decision.

I was struck by a comment from my beloved, trusted male T. He said, well the best time to learn a lot more about what's in a man's heart is after sex. They feel relaxed and open then, and that's when they're likely to show you who they really are.

What hit me was that even he was thinking that my hesitation about getting into bed before I'm ready could or should be set aside. He has a point about intimacy (emotional) being connected to being physically intimate. Of course.

But what about my realization that slow courtship is safer and healthier for me?

Hmmmpghgjffkkgsgmgamlff....

Hops

[Twoapenny]

Hops, you have just explained exactly how I feel about sex.  I haven't been with a man - not even kissed - for nearly ten years now.  I do have some hang ups with sex because of my abuse issues but when I'm in a good place, with the right person, I enjoy it and yes, I am hoping that one day I will meet someone that I really connect with and want to be with.  Because I do think, when you've been through a lot of hurt and deep soul searching and a lot of time on your own and endured the loneliness and the aching to be held and really missed having emotional intimacy with someone - the sort where you know what they're thinking without having to ask and you can finish each other's sentences - you do get to a point where it really has to be good and special and feel right.  And yep, for me, that would mean taking it slowly and really spending time getting to know someone.  For me it's about feeling safe.  I don't want to have sex with a man I can't be emotionally honest with and who isn't able to cope with me when I'm going through one of my bad spots.  I don't want to have to hide the aspects of my personality I'm not keen on or worry he'll go off me when he sees my wobbly belly.  I want to be past all that and know he's okay with it all and just feel like I can let go without being frightened.  So yes, I completely understand your need to take things slowly and you should, absolutely, go at a pace that feels good for you.  I think it's really important to get through these wobbly stages - with or without him, depending on how it goes - so that you feel really comfortable with the way the two of you are.  And do you want a guy that can only show you what's in his heart after you've slept with him?  Personally I want to know what's in there before.  I don't agree with your T on this one (with the greatest of respect!).