Heist on Something....

[Hopalong]

Tupp, you GET it.

Thank you, so much.

What's funny is how this relates to your thread...I just posted a lot of thoughts about judging.

The only thing different for me now is how much I'd JUDGE men who were in a hurry before. Now I'm a lot more empathetic. I see him as a vital attractive older man who's very eager to reassure himself that he can continue to be vital with a woman. I get it, and I don't see anything wrong with him wanting that.

Occurs to me that something really nice I could give him would be to tell him, very genuinely, that I recognize he is holding back for my sake, and that it's not always easy for him. And that I deeply appreciate it. Nothing "sacrificial" on either part, but just that it'd be a chance for me to express compassion for his frustration, but without changing my own decision about what works for me.

Hmmm! Might try that out this evening, in fact.

Hugs,
Hops

[Hopalong]

PS - I don't agree with my dear T on that, either. Though he's right about how many men feel...he was skipping over how I feel. I think I will talk with him about that and see how he responds.

One of my recurring thoughts, despite how much I value him, is wondering whether I might benefit from a female T. If I could find an experienced, wise, savvy woman...it'd be wonderful. I may check around. I've been feeling a little "stuck" with him but it's terribly hard to face. Because he is unquestionably my "safe space."

Many years ago, a male T urged me to kind of "hurry up and marry" my second husband, which turned out to be a disaster. The same kind of thing had happened...the T urged me to overlook my own anxiety/intuition about the fiance who was pressuring me (not for sex in this case, that was fine...but to set a date since he was pressuring me to marry). The marriage was a travesty and terribly destructive.

(Turned out that T was uncomfortable with me saying I was sexually active because he was religious and my sexual freedom made him uncomfortable. He admitted this, after I came back from my honeymoon shattered, asking him why he told me to go ahead and marry when I'd told him I felt I needed more time?)

I don't know what motivated my current T to suggest that after-sex would be the best time to get to know B. I am positive he would never consciously want to recommend anything harmful. (And he didn't push it at all once I indicated, No.)

But I do think I need to tell him this story about my long-ago T. Whew.

xo
Hops

[Twoapenny]

It is funny how there are similarities between the two threads, Hops.  And I agree with your idea to tell him you appreciate him taking his time for your sake - acknowledges him without compromising you, as you say.

On the subject of female T's - I had two really, really good ladies and they gave me a lot of the mothering I never had.  That helped me hugely, to have a wise sage offering advice and non-judgemental support.  For me a male T wouldn't have worked; my issues with men would have just frozen me up.  But I have seen a complementary therapist for years, on and off, and he is around the same age as my step-dad and of a similar build.  I've seen him about physical problems so shorter appointments and no soul searching, but he's a very kind, empathetic, well educated man and he's been a great balm as well.  So yes, perhaps some sessions with a different T would help.  It would be interesting to hear whether a lady T would think the same as the male Ts have when it comes to your relationships.  But I think the approach you're taking is the right one.

[lighter]

Hops:
I'm repeating this....

Making out like teenagers is the most fun. 

Also, a man who respects your needs and time table is a man who cares about your feelings as much as his own. 

What is his idea if relationship at this point, if not committed loving sharing of a life together?  I really want that answer....and what would your place be if not family....in his opinion?

::Going back to read first posts after this post::.

I'm glad you're mindful of not making excuses for this guy.  Lean into Discovery and acceptance of what you find, Hops.  I know there's expectation, but try to put it down as you can. 

A nice man won't pressure you about sex, IME.  Of course, anyone can be good for a certain amount of time.  Draw back, get some emotional distance, and notice if he cares about how
You
Feel.

Is he asking questions?  Are his eyes twinkling when you speak?  Is he listening or waiting to speak?  Is he planning dates YOU enjoy?  Does he care enough to make sure you're comfortable, and happy?  Or does he always seem to be working his own agenda as priority?

I notice that nice people are kind, even when they don't get or hear what they want from us.

Does he use humor when he's frustrated?  Does he want you to meet his peeps?

[sKePTiKal]

Hops, I was going to read all the new posts before opening my mouth because I'm only capable of the cryptic right now (big, vague, fuzzy stuff rolling through my head that I can't "say" yet) - but -

I'm going to pass on something I told Holly, who was laying out all her thoughts/feelings/hopes/dreams etc re: a relationship to me. Actually it just fell out of my mouth, without forethought:

Don't judge yourself by HIS values/standards.

I *think* this is where a lot of the anxiety comes from about how our house looks, how we look/act during a date, and even how we think about the other person and being with them. And I think this is one way we tangle ourselves up about relationships.

It's a self-defense mechanism we learned thanks to our FOO. We were always trying to stay between the lines of THEIR expectations/values - even when it was never predictable - and that's how we learned to relate to "close relationships with other people". God knows, it's something I do without being conscious of it most of the time... and I *think* (presume, assume) we crave being able to "let our hair down" and just drop all that. I'm not entirely sure guys understand that "need" in women - nor what it looks like in actions and assurances.

[Hopalong]

Thanks, y'all!
I'm amazed to report that it's going really well. He met two sets of friends this week and they all liked him a lot. Good impression all around. He really enjoyed it and it felt good to be out together. He'll introduce me to someone (I told him it's his turn) but he's only been living here two 1/2 years, and much of the first year was the illness and death of his wife. So he's befriended a few neighbors. His daughter lives here but he hasn't mentioned that meet yet and I appreciate that. He should hold off.

I did make that statement to him about truly appreciating the fact that he's willing to be patient with me about intimacy and it seemed fine. He said the night he seemed withdrawn he was feeling the need for more touch and closeness. I told him to just ask for a hug and explained (in a gentle way) that he needs to not have me read his mind, but speak. He did, and I've been hugging, doing back scratches and the passing shoulder rub and he talks about it making him happy. I was at his place this evening and he went to shower before we went to my friends'. He made an odd comment but I understood he meant it positively "I feel so comfortable with you that it occurred to me I could have just walked out here in my underwear...." So I said, shades of Harvey Weinstein!

I guess he can't help being a little one-track about this, but he's not physically pressuring me. He's a little bit controlling but so far I'm not feeling it's a threatening thing--more mildly neurotic/codependent. I'm pretty comfortable speaking up so far.

When he kissed me good night I informed him that his mustache feels like little redwood logs that have been trimmed with a chainsaw, and that cracked him up.

We're not having heavy talks about relationship or future right now and I'm glad, that was an intense way to start out (but normal at our ages, likely). We seem to have moved forward into real relationship, and it's only been two months. I'd like to just enjoy him and seek out new experiences with him for a time.

He's got some health issues I wasn't fully aware of so there may be some limits, but that's okay.

He expressed bewilderment when I said I was tired (concern really) but I felt defensive about it. (My problem to fix.) I am not retired yet and I don't think he gets how tiring my work can be with the old folks, even though it's PT. And though I didn't say so, it's quite an effort to work a new person into my life, even though I'm happy I am.

Right now it's feeling good and we're doing well. He has some fussiness that could make me roll my eyes if I were rude, but overall he's sweet and easy to be around. I tend to run fast, mentally, and he's sloooooooow. He'll tell a story in 30 minutes that would take me 10, but difference is part of the appeal. He may calm me down.

All in all, a good week and unexpectedly positive! (I'll keep crunching away at various fears and worries with you guys, and I know it'll be okay.)

lots of love and thanks,
Hops

[Hopalong]

Lighter, did I blow past your telling me not to judge myself by HIS standards?

I just re-read my post and think I'm being awfully, awfully accomodating. Still like him, still continuing...

But in honesty his comment about feeling so comfortable he thought he could walk out in his underwear DID make me uncomfortable. Not fearful. Just...why did you have to say that, why do you fixate on that?

Hmmm. It was just weird. He didn't push anything but there's something there. I am hopeful, honestly, that this is not a dark problem. Just something out of sync.

Guess I'll find out in time....

Hops

[sKePTiKal]

That was me, Hops, with the standards comment.

The underwear comment I understand completely; he's truly sharing that realization he had that HE wouldn't feel awkward about it in the context of how he's seeing the relationship. No more; no less. And it was supposed to be funny. Is he comfortable telling jokes? If not, it might explain what felt "off" about it. (You said he was an engineer - IME, a lot of guys in that field have some aspie personality characteristics, even if they're NOT aspies. I'm horrible at telling jokes.)

Some guys are terribly self-conscious about their bodies - just like we are - especially at this age. But it's an assumption to think he was fixating on it. A little mind-reading; that reflex of always looking for ulterior motive in everything maybe?

And then, there is your reaction to the incident/statement. Two separate things. Advice: if you're going to look at things in this kind of close-up detail... you've got to keep things very well sorted/separated. That helped me sort out the Ronnie issue... and where I was reading way too much into his words... and then let myself weave a whole story out of that in my mind... which engaged the feelings I didn't realize were there... and well, I was off to the races. LOL.

[lighter]

Hops:

Reading your post did seem chucked full of accommodation on your part.  I recognize it as something I've done....my comfort zone for sure.  I have to say that I was working hard to remedy it in my late 30's, while considering the man I had children with, and did very well for 5 months.  Once we became intimate/engaged at that point, I lost my bearings.  It was unfamiliar territory.  Giving in to Controllers is easier for those who aren't interested in controlling, IME.  We can mistake fluid boundaries for identity as caring, giving, devoted wonderful helpmate peacekeeper spirit.  And the controller keeps asking for things, insisting things will be fine IF we'd just ( insert the never ending list of things we must do or change,IME of course.)

Why do we take on eventual sole responsibility for keeping things ok.....so many reasons, but just NO.

Once we begin making excuses and menuevering around the truth to create OKness in relationship..... we're lost, IME.

I'm saying that you are as important as this man, and standing your ground, stating your wishes, and requiring comfort in relationship, for yourself, is a priority you can make clear, and train him I to, even if he's not familiar or practiced at it.

Equals, not you mothering and enabling.  Taking turns getting your way, not developing habits of accommodation for this man who lost his wife and has needs and health issues and the need to trample boundaries to have what he feels is important....what he wants.

I would re write that if I had time, but there's no time.  Consider it perspective.  You're good at dealing with difficult people.  Perhaps not so good at putting yourself first, and boundary transgressions always start small in my experience.   Perhaps not consciously, but the first tiny push typically leads to larger and larger and more till we're wondering how we got to that familiar place.  Again.

Just pay attention to any excuses you make for him.  Pay attention to the accomodations you make.  No DIM thinking....denial, ignoring or minimization this time.

Eyes wide, eager and ready to accept what is real up front.  Ask for equality. 

Don't ask, don't get, Hops.  You are so worthy of reciprocity and the care you extend.

:: Nodding emphatically::..

Lighter
You can deliver all this information with humor and ease, even if he isn't capable of receiving with Grace.  Just give him the chance to figure it out.  He may surprise both of you.  It happened that way for my mother in her second marriage, and my SF adored her Moxy.  He respected her ability to stand up for herself, but she started with small boundary transgressions FIRST to get to equality and joy.  Does that make sense?

[Hopalong]

Wowsers. Thank you so MUCH.

Lighter, this is good, wise warning...watching those little boundary issues and not letting a pattern begin. It's the frog-in-pot-of-cold-water thing, with accomodations. I want to make the generous, humorous, humanist ones. But not the others.

How many women do we know who got lost in the unmarked territory between the two? Because of that, I'm extra grateful for your awareness and reminders. Thank you.

Amber, you're right...I want to not over-interpret and have a paranoid suspicion about all the stuff he does or indicates. It's actually quite hard, being a fossilized feminist on her own for the last couple decades. But I'm glad for the challenge. I feel myself stretching and fearing and then....sorta coming back. Breathe. He's a human. He's probably not all that difficult to interpret! (I make it hard, internally.)

And you'll appreciate how your insight instantly helped. We were on the phone and he was telling me...last night was great, I had a terrific time, and that means you get an A+. My reponse? But I'm not interested in being graded.... And he goes: No, that just means you got a compliment from an engineer.

I almost said, have you met Amber?

 

Then he started waxing eloquent about how he wants to hold and kiss me and blah blah (all physical stuff) but then said...to show you that I think the world of you.

[pause for brief melt]...and I realize, I think, that for him his physical desire of me IS a response to "who I am." He just uses physical language. I hope that's right.

Does it mean he feels the highest compliment he could pay me is to talk about how he *wants* me? I dunno. But in his analytical way, he might be trying to say that.

Dunno, dunno. It's lovely to be an object of desire. But I don't wanna be an object of desire. Catch my conundrum?

I give everybody here a blanket invite to the long-running triple feature of Hops Dunno.

xxoo
Hops

[Twoapenny]

I get what you mean, Hops, I want to be desired for who I am first, with the physical aspect coming second.  I think most men (I'm generalising, it could be just the men I've known in my life) tend to focus on the physical first, then the person.  And I do wonder (again from talking to men) how much Western society convinces men that women like to be complimented on their physical appearance, rather than aspects of their personality or their achievements?

But I think all of this is going the right way.  You're aware and you're very honest, Hops, including with yourself (and that's something that can be very hard).  You're willing to look at things from different angles, hear different perspectives, speak openly with him (and take the risk that entails) and listen to what he says.  No relationship (or person) will be perfect but I think open conversation and being able to speak your mind without worry is probably a very big component in a relationship being very good (or perhaps 'right for you' is a better way to look at it?).  He seems happy to take what you say on board and make adjustments.  He doesn't seem to be overly sensitive to comments and take everything as a personal criticism?  Which is good.  And you have such a good level of awareness that I don't think you're going to walk into some kind of elephant trap and suddenly find yourself stuck in something you can't get out of.

I think whatever goes on with your chap you are in a really good position to work with the situation and make sure you get what you need and want - with him, with someone else, by yourself.  I think it will all work out okay xx

[sKePTiKal]

I'm laughing out loud Hops.

I have a "useful big brother" who is heavily credentialed as an engineer. Been getting to know him online for years now. To the point that we're intimate enough to share about our families. He and his wife have adopted kids to "rescue" them from awful life situations. You can see how I might have a little hero worship for him. This last set of twins, were adopted after their parents were killed in front of them. He's our age; has recently been diagnosed with MS - and is researching his butt off in his plentiful spare time now to find anything that can help maintain his quality of life, as long as possible. He's writing a book (I haven't asked yet what it's about.)

He's heard Twiggy's story; he has his own. We can talk about dissociation, the spiritual aspects of that... coping... and what "letting it go" really means. We are really good friends now - and despite both of us really needing the other from time to time as sounding boards - that's valuable enough as a relationship for both to relax in. Despite our different ways of approaching life and problems.

It's because of sharing that "over-analytical" tendency between us, that this friendship is possible. Sure, mine is applied most often to emotional and creative situations. But that's the connection. We can understand each other's "processing" that way. Almost to the point of being able to finish each other's sentences. I help him from time to time, dealing with problems that come up with both sets of sisters (the older two are now married) as they continue healing from their trauma. His approach is very simple: give them enough positive experiences, love, protection and firm, but gentle guidance that the trauma isn't the biggest thing in their lives anymore.

Having that one place - the processing mode, in analytical style - as a connection is what makes this friendship WORK. I think your ability to verbalize your processing - even the "dunnos" - when shared with B, will also open an opportunity for him to connect with you at that level. It's worth it's weight in gold to me, I know that. It also is an opportunity for him, to bare his soul to you - in a trusting space - and that may bloom into more.

As for the "fossilized feminist" - well, having grown out of that from Twiggy's days, I can only say that sometimes that body of ideas has backfired on a lot of women. Confused things even more. A good part of my life started from the premise that I could do anything a man could do (my way of course; upper arm strength still evades me) and just as well. But it cost me a lot too. It was only after learning that it was OK for me to matter enough, that my needs/wants were met sometimes TOO... that things started to get sorted out. Feminism doesn't understand the typical masculine psychology very well at all. It all gets reduced to dominance and power struggles in the most extreme areas; and to my way of thinking that's just not correct for the majority of men. That automatically makes them the "enemy"...

which then, gets in the way of relationships. Yes, men tend to express emotional attraction, like and love, physically. Sometimes they equate and confuse the two. It's a lie born of stereotyping, that men are more sexually oriented/needy than women... and I can attest to that personally. It's also not true that men think about sex more than women. Romance novels wouldn't be such a big section of the book market, if that were true. But women give physical affection, based on what's in their heads ultimately - combined with a good helping of emotion and hormones. And if we're seeing this natural human activity in terms of dominance/submission or a power struggle... that conflicts with our nurturing side, and our needs to be nurtured -- we'll be too paranoid to allow it. Yet, that's EXACTLY what we want... LOL.

OY. I still deal with this. Still a work in progress. But what works best for me, to separate my thinking and analysis of the balance of the relationship and feelings/actions within it... from feeling the feelings all by themselves and making ye olde monkey mind just SHUT UP for the duration of experiencing that sharing of physical comfort and pleasure. Swoons and melting... are the antithesis of the whole body of feminist ideas. But that's what relationships involve. Making out like teenagers, like Lighter said. FUN, letting down your hair, intimacy.

(And I'm not saying ALL of those feminist ideas are bad; but we shouldn't have to accept ALL the bad - to experience SOME of the good ones. And it may just be that some ideas are "bad for us" -- but "good for others". In the realm of "ideas" - the "one size fits all" concept has been incorrectly applied too many times, in too many ways, to the point that it invalidates the "rule of thumb" ideas prevalent in popular culture. All us humans are different; so how could it even be possible that all the ideas inherent in body or collection of ideas that evolve into an "ism" apply to everyone equally, without allowing for all the variables that make each human unique?)

[Hopalong]

Although the interest and attraction were there when B and I met Oct. 2nd, it wasn't until Dec. 2nd that we acknowledged neither was dating others. (Before that he'd suggested he still was, but on that date he acknowledged that wasn't true.) Since that Dec. 2 date, our pace of seeing each other has picked up to a couple times a week (before that, 2-3 times a month).

Long story short, I'm attracted to him, enjoy the making out mostly. But I do feel pressured and a little trapped every time. It's not relaxed. I always feel he's pushing for more. He's always, always focused on getting me alone. He's been nice and pleasant when he's met my friends, but I sense so clearly that he primarily wants me indoors, on a couch, getting it on. It's like an aura. He's contained, and quiet, but I know the look on his face and he's made clear what he's thinking about and it just feels relentless.

If our pace and sense of progressing to that point were MUTUAL, playing with that energy as Lighter describes would be a delight. But it's not. He's ahead of me and I feel pressured. It is somewhat subtle but real and it backfires.

Tonight we went to dinner at 600. I had a busy workday and have a long one tomorrow. Around 800 we were done and he drove me home. I explained that I wouldn't invite him in because the house was a mess (and he'd mentioned at dinner that he was tired himself). His response concerned me. He looked pissed though he tries to mask it. We necked a few minutes more and then he just grabbed my breast. Not hard, but without any interchange of that energy. I was still and he just grabbed. Lightly but, it didn't feel inviting or affectionate. Felt demanding. He had a half-bottle of wine and said, sorta joking, you know I had brought wine for you. I said, oh I didn't assume, jokingly. And he said, jokingly, "Screw you." I said, well eventually yes, seems like we're heading in that direction!

Were we joking?

Dome part of this dance is me sensing he feels not only frustrated but entitled. I cannot help this -- my response to pressure to become more intimate is to recoil. Pressure. I don't like being pressured. And my response to anger, even controlled anger in small and subtle spurts, is to wanna run.

We've really been a declared "couple" not quite 3 weeks. I'll say again that he's a rich man who's experienced a lot of power in the workplace and he's also very physically focused, as an ex athlete. I'm not sure this is going to work.

(Because I feel pressured, and because I sensed his annoyance when I said I'd unable to invite him in this evening, when he resumed kissing me in the car I kept talking nervously. He just pressed on, ignoring the fact that I was talking. Later I wished I'd had the guts to say, When someone is chattering nervously when you feel like kissing, would it help to stop and ask about the nervousness? Or does it help to press on regardless? Hint: "being over-ridden physically while I was talking, even though it was a nervous talking--did not feel good.")

I don't know what to do. I'm afraid I'm sensing some stuff I can't deal with. Or don't want to.

I'll try to talk with him about it but my T is on vacay and I'm not sure I'll approach it right. I'll try. We're supposed to get together this weekend...

Hops

[Twoapenny]

Hops, I'm just posting quickly and will post more later on, but I would say postpone this weekend - give yourself enough time and headspace to figure out how you feel and what you want/need to do next.  Don't be pressured or feel obliged.  The fact that you felt pressured and nervous bothers me.  The fact that you are sensing you will need to deal with 'stuff' concerns me.  Postpone this weekend.  Wait until you've spoken to T (although keep in mind T might not be so open to your needing to wait where the physical stuff is concerned).  But don't try to figure this out quickly or by yourself.  Wait until everything has settled down, until you feel relaxed, confident, assured about how you feel with the situation.  There is nothing wrong with not liking being pressured, or wanting to run from anger.  Those are healthy reactions warning you that something is off.  Heed them, and put the brakes on for the time being xx

[Twoapenny]

Some more thoughts as I'm reading through again, Hops - bullet points, and with the caveat that I have a history of abuse so I am quite sensitive to 'man' stuff - but what's flashed at me reading through is:

You've only actually been 'a couple' three weeks.  And only seeing each other two or three times a week during that period.  Very early stages and you've been very clear about wanting to proceed slowly.  Three weeks isn't slow, by anybody's standards.  I don't feel there's any justification for him being impatient.

Indoors, on a couch, getting it on, is very low maintenance from his point of view.  No need to talk, dress up, engage with other people, enjoy experiences, explore.  Easy, indoors, little effort, physical needs met.  I don't read anything of you in there.

You mention feeling pressured several times.  I think this is a red flag.  You are a very wise, compassionate, well educated woman with a lot of (often unpleasant) life experience.  You've been very clear, precise and measured with him about what you want and what you are looking for.  If you're feeling pressured I think it's because he's putting you under pressure, albeit subtly (and that's a red flag for me, people who elicit feelings in us because their actions and their vibe don't tally with their words are potentially troublesome).

The after dinner exchange sounds unpleasant.  You've been out for a bite to eat, it's mid-week, you've got work again in the morning.  To my mind a kiss and a cuddle before heading indoors sounds great but boob grabbing?  Not the time or the place and, as you said, not on the same page as you.  The interchange about the wine seemed odd?  I can't quite put my finger on it but it felt as though the wine was supposed to get him through the door or something?  It doesn't feel jokey when I read it although I can't really explain why.

He has no right to feel frustrated or entitled so you don't need to be feeling you can't 'help' how you feel.  How you feel is exactly how I would feel in that situation.  You've been clear you need time - if he needs things to move quickly he has the option to move on - you've not given him any false flags or false hope.  He has no entitlement to anything, under any circumstances.  It reads as though you're worried about how you're reacting to him and that worries me.

You mention that he kept kissing you when you were talking.  You weren't reciprocating, you felt nervous and he just ignored all of that and carried on doing what he wanted.  Then you say that you wish you had the guts to say something and that bothered me, Hops, that you're feeling you need to summon up courage to deal with him?  This is not sitting well with me.  And then you mention you want to discuss it with him but you're worried you won't approach it right.  That concerns me as well.

I will hold up my flag of declaration - I'm no expert when it comes to relationships and I have additional issues because of the sexual abuse, but for me this raised a lot of red flags, Hopsie, more because of the way you're talking about it.  It sounds like he's knocked you off your stride, purposely or unconsciously I don't know, but it sounds as if you're doubting yourself and questioning yourself and you mention more that once trying to say or do things in a way that, essentially, won't bother him.  That concerns me greatly.  A part of me is wondering now if he's told you what he thinks you want to hear so that he can get what he wants quicker.  I worry when people's actions and mannerisms don't match the things they say.  From my perspective, there should be no assumption on his part that he's going to be invited in, nor that it's okay to touch you or carry on kissing you when you aren't reciprocating.  Personally I would want clear talking and sensitivity from a guy - the same way that you've been very clear with him and you're working to understand his point of view.  I think that needs to go both ways.  So I would say put the brakes on for now, and perhaps don't mention anything for now.  Perhaps just say you need to work or you need a little space and leave it to see if he tries to fix it or work out if everything's okay, instead of you doing it all?  I don't mean in a playing games way, but just sit back for a few days and see what happens without you steering the whole situation? xx